Busy day for the Knicks

[DeToxRox]

Crawford to GS for Harringinton and Randolph and Collins to the Clip Show for Thomas and Mobley.

LeBron must love it the moves being made just for him.

[bignej]

If Lebron leaves Cleveland, I will never watch professional basketball again.

[DaddyTorgo]

it'd be great if after all this lebron just didn't leave cleveland

[Chief Rum]

I think the Knicks are doing it for Dwayne Wade or Chris Bosh, personally. That's who they're counting on. If they get LeBron, great. But they only lose if they get no one.

[Galaxy]

When does the CBA expire?

[Deattribution]

I think the Knicks are doing it for Dwayne Wade or Chris Bosh, personally. That's who they're counting on. If they get LeBron, great. But they only lose if they get no one.

Agreed. LeBron gets talked about the most when the Knicks or Nets make moves but I don't think he's considered as attainable as it's made out to be.

IMO, Lebron is the most likely to stay where he is, with Wade a close second. Lebron has a competitive team, and Cleveland is willing to jump through hoops for him to keep it that way, by 2010 he may already have a ring. As far as Wade, I just don't see a lot of reasons for him to leave Miami unless they are still really awful in 2010. He has a ring already, Miami loves him and he gets a ton of endorsements also.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

From what I've read Bosh loves Toronto and is likely to stay.

[Lathum]

I hope they all go to Europe

[Galaxy]

From what I've read Bosh loves Toronto and is likely to stay.

Do you think that cities like Toronto have a hard time attracting US talent across the border?

Cool blog posted by Mark Cuban back in May looking forward to the next few years.

http://blogmaverick.com/2008/05/02/talking-mavs/

[Chief Rum]

Do you think that cities like Toronto have a hard time attracting US talent across the border?

As opposed to US talent inside the border? ;)

[M GO BLUE!!!]

I see several 130-105 losses in the future.

Now about the dead weight clogging up the end of the bench...

[Subby]

Donnie Walsh is the man. They'll have a top 3 draft pick and 50m in cap room when the summer of 2010 rolls around.

[Honolulu_Blue]

So, the Knicks have basically made all of these moves to clear cap space for 2010? So for the rest of this season and all of next season the Knicks have resigned to the fact that they will be terrible all for the hopes of bringing in some big name free agents in 2010?

Pathetic.

[Lathum]

So, the Knicks have basically made all of these moves to clear cap space for 2010? So for the rest of this season and all of next season the Knicks have resigned to the fact that they will be terrible all for the hopes of bringing in some big name free agents in 2010?

Pathetic.

I don't think it is pathetic. IT sucks for their fans for the next few years, but they are one of a few franchises who don't have to worry about ticket sales.

Do you really think they would be better off with thos guys 2 years from now? They suck anyway and aren't going anywhere, so whats the difference?

[Honolulu_Blue]

I don't think it is pathetic. IT sucks for their fans for the next few years, but they are one of a few franchises who don't have to worry about ticket sales.

Do you really think they would be better off with thos guys 2 years from now? They suck anyway and aren't going anywhere, so whats the difference?

I just find it incredibly lame.

This is easily one of the lamer sports moves I've ever seen.

If it was this point in the season in 2009, I could probably understand it. But to throw TWO entire seasons? LAME.

[Tyrith]

It's not like they made the team drastically worse in order to clear salary cap space. The Knicks didn't get any better, but I don't think they're going to lose 10 more games because of these trades. This team was already pretty bad anyway.

[Lathum]

I just find it incredibly lame.

This is easily one of the lamer sports moves I've ever seen.

If it was this point in the season in 2009, I could probably understand it. But to throw TWO entire seasons? LAME.

Yeah, but do you think somebody just called the Knicks out of the blue and they made these deals? They have been working these a while and you have to strike while the iron is hot.

What do they gain by finishing 5 games under .500 this year then hoping they can dump these contracts between now and then. It's not like they had any chance of contending.

IMO this is the best move the knicks have made since drafting Patrick Ewing.

[Galaxy]

Yeah, but do you think somebody just called the Knicks out of the blue and they made these deals? They have been working these a while and you have to strike while the iron is hot.

What do they gain by finishing 5 games under .500 this year then hoping they can dump these contracts between now and then. It's not like they had any chance of contending.

IMO this is the best move the knicks have made since drafting Patrick Ewing.

Well, since removing Isiah Thomas. :)

[Gary Gorski]

Great move for the Knicks - not only do they have cap relief coming now but really, how much worse can this make them? Harrington's not a bad player and definitely used to running and gunning from Golden State and they did the next to impossible of unloading Zach Randolph's contract. They weren't a playoff team before these trades and they're not now. With D'Antoni's system they'll run and gun to enough victories to keep from being pathetic like OKC. They've been terrible for a while now - what's another season or two if they're actually making moves to eventually get better rather than just piling up more stupid moves to ensure their long term futility?

[Chief Rum]

Question about Randolph (as a Clips fan).

Obviously, it's always easy to get excited about a player putting up 20-12, which is even better than what we were getting at times from Brand just two years ago, and moving Cat also means a lot more time for our star rookie guard at the 2.

But we're talking Zach Randolph here, he of Jailblazer fame. There's still a stigma attached to him in my mind. He says he's 27 now and he's more mature and he's not about that anymore. And I don't recall hearing of any bad stories about him while he was in New York (which seemed like a recipe for disaster when the Knicks got him last year). But maybe I just wasn't paying attention. What do New York people think of Zach Randolph, now, the player and the person, as opposed to the kid that was getting in trouble in Portland?

[Anthony]

we didn't get Zach the Jailblazer. really all of last year he was under the radar thanks to Isaiah stealing all the headlines. this is more of a "Zach, we hardly knew ye" kinda thing cuz you really had to be very knowledgeable about basketball to know how good of a player Zach was. chalk it up to NY getting a player from the Northwest region. if this was a Dwayne Wade/Paul Pierce kind of aquisition then there'd be more to say/miss. he came, did his job (and did it better this season than last) and was traded. a very neutral player, which i think played in the Knicks' favor since they were trading a Zach Randolph with a blank slate than Zach Randolph "we don't know if he's going to revert to his negative ways like in Portland". we took the risk and it paid off and that's why we were able to trade him. i don't speak for all of NYC but the fact that he didn't make any headlines was a very good thing for him. maybe if the Knicks were more of a contender it'd be different, its not like the early to mid 90's anymore when they were the cock of the walk. this is Yankees (blech!) and football country these days.

[Atocep]

Obviously, it's always easy to get excited about a player putting up 20-12, which is even better than what we were getting at times from Brand just two years ago, and moving Cat also means a lot more time for our star rookie guard at the 2.


Zach Randolph has the most misleading 20 and 10 in the NBA. Brand put up his numbers while shooting over 50% from the floor while Randolph has shot around 45% the past few seasons. On top of that he plays zero defense (0.3 blocked shots per game over his career?), isn't anywhere near as active on the offensive boards (about 1.5 rebounds less than Brand there per game), and he's a black hole on offense. He's also started to see himself as a 3 point threat over the past couple seasons even though he shoots less than 30% from behind the arc.

[Gary Gorski]

Obviously, it's always easy to get excited about a player putting up 20-12, which is even better than what we were getting at times from Brand just two years ago,

Don't be mislead by his 20/12. #1 he was in the D'Antoni "try to score 150 points a game" offense and #2 he's joining Camby and Kaman on that front line already so his stats are going to take a hit.

[Logan]

I just find it incredibly lame.

This is easily one of the lamer sports moves I've ever seen.

If it was this point in the season in 2009, I could probably understand it. But to throw TWO entire seasons? LAME.

Your problem is with the NBA, not the Knicks. I'd guess only 20% of all NBA trades are made from a strictly talent perspective. This is a league where the Suns have repeatedly SOLD their first round pick and trades are made where a 1st is added in with a player and only a 2nd rounder is acquired. Contracts are everything in the league, the Knicks did a smart thing whether you think it's lame or not.

[RainMaker]

Agreed. LeBron gets talked about the most when the Knicks or Nets make moves but I don't think he's considered as attainable as it's made out to be.

IMO, Lebron is the most likely to stay where he is, with Wade a close second. Lebron has a competitive team, and Cleveland is willing to jump through hoops for him to keep it that way, by 2010 he may already have a ring. As far as Wade, I just don't see a lot of reasons for him to leave Miami unless they are still really awful in 2010. He has a ring already, Miami loves him and he gets a ton of endorsements also.

I don't know. Think about being in Lebron's shoes. He could end up being one of the greatest NBA players ever. He'll never get the attention he deserves though in Cleveland. There's just something different about having a superstar in a major city. Think of the attention Garnett got in Minnesota vs Boston.

Plus, I think there are some nice incentives. Isn't there talk of Nike giving him a huge bonus for moving to a bigger market? What other big endorsement deals can he get by being in New York? There are just more money making opportunities in New York for now and his future.

And the Knicks will have a ton of space in 2010. Enough for 2 max contracts. That means not just Lebron coming on board. It could mean Lebron and Bosh. Lebron and Wade. Lebron and Amare. Tough to turn that down. New York will always be a better destination for free agents than Cleveland. If Cleveland doesn't compete in the next couple years, it's tough to say he'll continue to wait it out there.

My guess is that Bosh stays in Toronto, Wade goes to Chicago, Lebron to New York. I think the league is going to push real hard for stars to end up in big cities. They would love to have them along with Kobe in LA for a few seasons.

[bignej]

I don't know. Think about being in Lebron's shoes. He could end up being one of the greatest NBA players ever. He'll never get the attention he deserves though in Cleveland. There's just something different about having a superstar in a major city. Think of the attention Garnett got in Minnesota vs Boston.

The problem with that comparison is Minnesota was not a good team. He got plenty of attention when his team was successful. Does anyone really think Lebron is getting inadequate attention? He easily takes up 20% of all NBA coverage right now. I would argue he gets more than Kobe who is in a major market already.

Plus, I think there are some nice incentives. Isn't there talk of Nike giving him a huge bonus for moving to a bigger market? What other big endorsement deals can he get by being in New York? There are just more money making opportunities in New York for now and his future.

I have heard this and I hope it isnt true. This shows that it is Nike that runs the league and itseems like a conflict of interest. I do understand that Lebron makes more from his Nike deal then from actually playing basketball.

And the Knicks will have a ton of space in 2010. Enough for 2 max contracts. That means not just Lebron coming on board. It could mean Lebron and Bosh. Lebron and Wade. Lebron and Amare. Tough to turn that down. New York will always be a better destination for free agents than Cleveland. If Cleveland doesn't compete in the next couple years, it's tough to say he'll continue to wait it out there.

My guess is that Bosh stays in Toronto, Wade goes to Chicago, Lebron to New York. I think the league is going to push real hard for stars to end up in big cities. They would love to have them along with Kobe in LA for a few seasons.

I agree with your assessment about where free agents would want to play. Cleveland doesn't have much to offer unless you are from there, which Lebron is. I am biased in the fact that I am a Cavs fan but is league cool with killing of its smaller markets to accomplish these goals? I guarantee that if Lebron ever does leave Cleveland, pro basketball will be dead there, and they might as well move the team.

[RainMaker]

The problem with that comparison is Minnesota was not a good team. He got plenty of attention when his team was successful. Does anyone really think Lebron is getting inadequate attention? He easily takes up 20% of all NBA coverage right now. I would argue he gets more than Kobe who is in a major market already.
Minnesota was a playoff team almost every year he was there. And yes, Lebron gets attention in Cleveland, but imagine what it is in New York. ESPN would probably dedicate a network to him.

I agree with your assessment about where free agents would want to play. Cleveland doesn't have much to offer unless you are from there, which Lebron is. I am biased in the fact that I am a Cavs fan but is league cool with killing of its smaller markets to accomplish these goals? I guarantee that if Lebron ever does leave Cleveland, pro basketball will be dead there, and they might as well move the team.

I agree, it sucks for small markets. I'm not sure how the league can change it though. But I think some small markets have figured out how to work the system. San Antonio has been a perenniel contender. Miami won a Championship and brought in talent. Detroit isn't a huge market and has been one of the more succesful franchises over the past 20 years.

I just look at the whole thing from Lebron's perspective. I see no advantage at all to staying in Cleveland. I also think the attention is a big deal to him. Remember that this is a guy with a giant statue of his head in the entrance to his home. He likes doing things like the ESPYs and being on magazine covers. He's just not a Tim Duncan type who doesn't mind the low-key small market atmosphere.

I personally don't feel there is anyway he stays in Cleveland. I think Cleveland has ruined their opportunity. They should have gone all out. Brought in a Pau Gasol, Kevin Garnett, even Shaq. Taken a big chance. Instead they wasted their money on bad talent. Mo Williams is not going to help Lebron win a title. I feel if they aren't going to go all out to win it, they may as well trade him and be set with young talent for the next 5 years.

[Deattribution]

I think Garnett is a bad example, he's bigger in Boston because they're champions and before that - they were running through the league. In MN, he only had one team capable of making a deep playoff run and even they weren't that great.

I just don't see NY being a huge boost for Lebron, especially when you consider if he makes the jump - he's going to alienate all of Cleveland, plus some people who see him as ditching his home town team who aren't from Cleveland. He's already the face of the league, what more can he become? NY will involve another 2-3 year rebuilding process to boot.

[RainMaker]

I think Garnett is a bad example, he's bigger in Boston because they're champions and before that - they were running through the league. In MN, he only had one team capable of making a deep playoff run and even they weren't that great.

I just don't see NY being a huge boost for Lebron, especially when you consider if he makes the jump - he's going to alienate all of Cleveland, plus some people who see him as ditching his home town team who aren't from Cleveland. He's already the face of the league, what more can he become? NY will involve another 2-3 year rebuilding process to boot.

It's not really his hometown. He's from Akron. Not like he grew up on the streets of Cleveland.

I still think it's a huge boost. There will be more media in New York and he's the main story every night. Just his move to New York alone will be one of the biggest stories in NBA history.

And any team Lebron is on is a contender. It's not like Cleveland has anyone on their roster besides Lebron. New York will also have a ton of cap room beyond the Lebron signing. They will have enough room for another max contract. With another lottery pick or two and this team will look nothing like it does now. It's one thing if Cleveland was real good, but without Lebron, they don't win 30 games.

[Mantle2600]

You do realize the Cavs will have enough money to sign LBJ and another max contract if he stays right?

[RainMaker]

You do realize the Cavs will have enough money to sign LBJ and another max contract if he stays right?
With all things equal, where would you want to play if you were the best basketball player on the planet?

[bignej]

Im pretty sure Cleveland can offer a bigger contract than anyone else (besides Nike of course)

[Deattribution]

Just his move to New York alone will be one of the biggest stories in NBA history.



Biggest and most infamous are two different things. As stated in this thread, it'll effectively end basketball in Cleveland, which is hard to argue.


With all things equal, where would you want to play if you were the best basketball player on the planet?

With all things equal, what's it matter where you play? His contract itsself (the fact it's coming up in 2010) is generating more hype than just being in NY would. And the reason his contract is done that way is for the hype, but also so he can make more $$. If he was so hellbent on playing in NY, or NJ, he could already be there.

[RainMaker]

Biggest and most infamous are two different things. As stated in this thread, it'll effectively end basketball in Cleveland, which is hard to argue.
Maybe. But honestly, if a city can only support a basketball team if it has the best player in the league, they probably don't deserve to have a team.

With all things equal, what's it matter where you play? His contract itsself (the fact it's coming up in 2010) is generating more hype than just being in NY would. And the reason his contract is done that way is for the hype, but also so he can make more $$. If he was so hellbent on playing in NY, or NJ, he could already be there.
We'll see. I think in the end, Lebron will take the fame and attention in New York.

[Deattribution]

Maybe. But honestly, if a city can only support a basketball team if it has the best player in the league, they probably don't deserve to have a team.


I don't think that is the only way they can support a team, but a Lebron James doesn't come to town that often (If ever for some teams). Losing him would be a huge hit to the franchise, and would linger for a while.

Teams like the Lakers can afford losing a Kobe (or a Shaq), cause they're the Lakers but Cleveland is pretty much Lebron James.

[bignej]

Maybe. But honestly, if a city can only support a basketball team if it has the best player in the league, they probably don't deserve to have a team.

We'll see. I think in the end, Lebron will take the fame and attention in New York.

Doesnt deserve to have a team? You're talking about a once in a lifetime player leaving a city and team that was more than willing to pay anything to keep him. Its like he is being stolen from them. Your talking about a city that is almost universally regarded as the most cursed city in sports. The city supported the team before he arrived but it would be damn near impossible to sell tickets if he leaves. What are the fans supposed to get excited over? Getting another top draft pick that will leave for a bigger market? This would be a huge hangover and would leave a horrible taste in the mouths of the fans. Its only fair for them to not support the league in this instance. On a similar note, I wonder what Orlando's ticket sales were like when Shaq left.

Ive been thinking about this talk about size of markets. Without Lebron, Cleveland is a small NBA market no doubt. In my opinion, Lebron dramatically increases their market so they are no longer a Cleveland market but a global market. TV ratings when he plays have no bearing on which city he plays in. He would sell millions of jerseys if he played in Alaska. He sells out other peoples stadiums now. How would that change based on what city he played for? With the internet and everything, I think the market argument for a player of his caliber is overrated.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

As a Knicks fan, I would feel kind of dirty if they go out and buy Lebron.

[JonInMiddleGA]

On a similar note, I wonder what Orlando's ticket sales were like when Shaq left.

NBA Home Attendance Totals (http://www.apbr.org/attendance.html)

Before Shaq
1989-90 41 617,468 15,060 18 wins
1990-91 41 617,668 15,065 31 wins
1991-92 41 621,191 15,151 21 wins

The Shaq years
1992-93 41 621,191 15,151 41 wins
1993-94 41 626,931 15,291 50 wins
1994-95 41 656,410 16,010 57 wins
1995-96 41 707,168 17,248 60 wins

Since Shaq
1996-97 41 687,958 17,199 45 wins
1997-98 41 701,647 17,113 41 wins
1998-99 25 411,091 16,444 33 wins
1999-00 41 576,409 14,059 41 wins
2000-01 41 605,031 14,757 43 wins
2001-02 41 621,121 15,149 44 wins
2002-03 41 605,091 14,778 42 wins
2003-04 41 589,144 14,369 21 wins
2004-05 41 597,942 14,583 36 wins
2005-06 41 638,005 15,561 40 wins
2006-07 41 700,887 17,094 40 wins
2007-08 41 709,346 17,301 52 wins

[RainMaker]

Doesnt deserve to have a team? You're talking about a once in a lifetime player leaving a city and team that was more than willing to pay anything to keep him. Its like he is being stolen from them. Your talking about a city that is almost universally regarded as the most cursed city in sports. The city supported the team before he arrived but it would be damn near impossible to sell tickets if he leaves. What are the fans supposed to get excited over? Getting another top draft pick that will leave for a bigger market? This would be a huge hangover and would leave a horrible taste in the mouths of the fans. Its only fair for them to not support the league in this instance. On a similar note, I wonder what Orlando's ticket sales were like when Shaq left.

Ive been thinking about this talk about size of markets. Without Lebron, Cleveland is a small NBA market no doubt. In my opinion, Lebron dramatically increases their market so they are no longer a Cleveland market but a global market. TV ratings when he plays have no bearing on which city he plays in. He would sell millions of jerseys if he played in Alaska. He sells out other peoples stadiums now. How would that change based on what city he played for? With the internet and everything, I think the market argument for a player of his caliber is overrated.

You don't "own" Lebron James just because some ping pong balls fell in your favor. You got rights to him for a few years, and then your team signs a contract with him to play for your team. These things are agreements between the two parties. Just as you have an agreement with your employer. They don't own you and you don't owe them anything besides your contractual duty.

And your response goes right into what I was saying. If the only reason you guys show up to the stadium is to root for one player, perhaps your city doesn't deserve a team. Every team in sports has to deal with the loss of a great player at some time. My Chicago Bulls dealt with the loss of Michael Jordan, yet we somehow manage to show up at games. The Packers lost the face of their franchise this year, yet they somehow find a way to fill up their stadium. Those are two extremes in the form of markets too. But what you are saying is that Cleveland can only survive if the best player in the world is on their team. That if he leaves to play somewhere else or decides to retire someday, the cities passion for basketball and the Cavs will go to shit. If that's the case, move the team to a city that will root for the team and the sport, not a single player.

And you can argue whether it matters what city he plays in, but the NBA, his sponsors, and the media feel otherwise. If Garnett, Pierce, and Allen won a title for the Utah Jazz last year, the team wouldn't have gotten half the press they got this past year. Ask yourself why Tim Duncan, arguably the most accomplished and succesful basketball player in the last 10 years receives little to no national attention. Do you think he would be perceived differently if he won those titles for the Knicks? I bet you he would have two more MVPs to his name and a slew of endorsement deals.

I bet any casual sports fan can tell you who the captain of the '94 Stanley Cup Champion Rangers team was. I bet you only a handful could tell you the captain of last years champion. Winning a championship in a big city like New York simply matters more. Sure it's not fair, but it's reality. Lebron knows that winning in Cleveland makes him a star, but winning in New York makes him a legend.

[Groundhog]

Why go out and grab a high profile coach if you are going to tank for 2 seasons? Why not just get in some no-name coach or former player, let him weather the storm for 2 years, then sack him in time for the rebuild year?

[Logan]

Well for one, the money that it cost for D'Antoni is nothing to the team. Two, they brought him in to implement his system, and you can't do it overnight. The hope is that the system attracts talent as much as the city will. Three, this team wasn't winning anyway as constituted.

[Bigsmooth]

On NBA Gametime (or whatever it's called), Jalen Rose basically guaranteed that Lebron and Bosh are gearing up to sign with the Knicks together. I'd consider Rose a pretty solid source with real connections inside the league. That being said, a lot can happen in 2 years. I mean, if the Supes can be stolen from Seattle after 40 years, anything can happen in the friggin NBA.

[Groundhog]

On NBA Gametime (or whatever it's called), Jalen Rose basically guaranteed that Lebron and Bosh are gearing up to sign with the Knicks together. I'd consider Rose a pretty solid source with real connections inside the league. That being said, a lot can happen in 2 years. I mean, if the Supes can be stolen from Seattle after 40 years, anything can happen in the friggin NBA.

Let's not forget the European route, either. If a Russian team is seriously willing to throw $50m tax free at LeBron James it wont matter how much cap space the Knicks have.

I still think LeBron will stay a Cav when all is said and done. The Knicks would obviously have him #1 on their list, but there are a lot of guys available in 2010 that would make a nice consolation prize.

[Logan]

Let's not forget the European route, either. If a Russian team is seriously willing to throw $50m tax free at LeBron James it wont matter how much cap space the Knicks have.

There's not a chance in hell LeBron goes to Russia, at least not until his career is nearing a close.

[Groundhog]

For $50m tax-free? He's already said in an interview that he'd be crazy not to do it if an offer like that came through.

[Crapshoot]

Doesnt deserve to have a team? You're talking about a once in a lifetime player leaving a city and team that was more than willing to pay anything to keep him. Its like he is being stolen from them. Your talking about a city that is almost universally regarded as the most cursed city in sports. The city supported the team before he arrived but it would be damn near impossible to sell tickets if he leaves. What are the fans supposed to get excited over? Getting another top draft pick that will leave for a bigger market? This would be a huge hangover and would leave a horrible taste in the mouths of the fans. Its only fair for them to not support the league in this instance. On a similar note, I wonder what Orlando's ticket sales were like when Shaq left.

Ive been thinking about this talk about size of markets. Without Lebron, Cleveland is a small NBA market no doubt. In my opinion, Lebron dramatically increases their market so they are no longer a Cleveland market but a global market. TV ratings when he plays have no bearing on which city he plays in. He would sell millions of jerseys if he played in Alaska. He sells out other peoples stadiums now. How would that change based on what city he played for? With the internet and everything, I think the market argument for a player of his caliber is overrated.

Where do you come up with this? If he wants to leave, why on earth shouldn't he? Stolen seems to indicate he's property - that's absurd.

[Logan]

For $50m tax-free? He's already said in an interview that he'd be crazy not to do it if an offer like that came through.

He cares about being an icon. To do that, he needs to be on American media.

[bignej]

Where do you come up with this? If he wants to leave, why on earth shouldn't he? Stolen seems to indicate he's property - that's absurd.

Thats just my bias showing through

[Gary Gorski]

I think that if the Cavs front office could have shown the ability to give him some help to win championsihps that the probability of him going elsewhere becomes much less. They've had since 2003 to do something and what have they gotten him? Great draftees like Luke Jackson (could have had Biendris, Al Jefferson or Josh Smith) - big time trades for the likes of an aged Ben Wallace? Bringing in Mo Williams and Delonte West via trade were good moves but that just happened now. What I can't figure out is why they never did anything to clear cap space. What more of a selling point do you need to a free agent than come and play with Lebron? Instead they've got 30 million locked up in Ben Wallace, Anderson Varejao, Sasha Pavlovic and Daniel Gibson next season and almost half of that is Ben.

If Cleveland loses Lebron that's on them. Unlike baseball where a small market team can't pay what the Yankees can pay the Cavs will be able to offer the maximum possible to Lebron even if other teams do clear enough cap space to offer the same amount and the Cavs don't have to do anything to their cap to do it either. It shouldn't have taken that long to realize what they had in James and they should have started right then and there clearing out everything crappy to build around him for the next decade.

[TroyF]

1) Bron is as good as gone. I don't see how he doesn't leave for a bigger market. He wants to be in NY or LA. i just can't see him not going for it.

2) I think the Clippers are about as bizzare as it gets for a basketball team now. If I had to list a top 10 "selfish" players grouping, the Clippers would have three guys on the list. Davis and Randolph on offense mixed with Camby on defense. (how'd you like Camby's defense on the pick and roll against the Spurs the other night Chief? Watch the playoff series against the Spurs/Nuggets and you'll see Pop use that same play about 20 times a game. Camby will not challenge an outside shot on a pick and roll play. He'll ALWAYS go for the player moving toward the rim)

It will make the Clippers a better offensive team, but my God are they going to suck on defense.

3) The Knicks won't have a high draft pick in 2010. That's actually Utah's pick. So all Nuggets/Blazer/TWolve/Thunder fans should be paraying NY is respectable in 2010 or Utah is going to get another high draft pick. Ugh.

[Sgran]

1) Bron is as good as gone. I don't see how he doesn't leave for a bigger market. He wants to be in NY or LA. i just can't see him not going for it.

Just curious: how on earth do you feel capable of reading Lebron's mind? Is there anything part of his life's trajectory that mirrors your own? Were you being told from the age of 12 (?) that you were going to be the greatest basketball player ever and it's coming true? It's like claiming you know for sure what Michael Jackson's going to do next. Or are you basing your opinion on reliable media reports?

[TroyF]

Just curious: how on earth do you feel capable of reading Lebron's mind? Is there anything part of his life's trajectory that mirrors your own? Were you being told from the age of 12 (?) that you were going to be the greatest basketball player ever and it's coming true? It's like claiming you know for sure what Michael Jackson's going to do next. Or are you basing your opinion on reliable media reports?

Isn't that the fun of sports? Predicting/guessing what someone is going to do? I base my opinion off of a few things:

1) Lebron has said he wants to become the first billion dollar athlete. Gonna be tough to do in Cleveland.

2) Lebron may live in Cleveland, it may be hometown and all. . . but look at his favorite teams. The Cowboys and the Yankees. That's frontrunning at it's finest. A kid from Cleveland not cheering for the longstanding Tribe or Browns, instead cheering for dynasties. Dynasties that get tons of publicities and are in big cities.

There are no reliable media reports. We are talking about something two years away. Even if Lebron had his mind made up right now, a lot of things can change in the next two years. Maybe Cleveland wins back to back titles. Or maybe Cleveland does something stupid. That changes things too.

Just my opinion, Bron is going to be gone by 2010. I HOPE he stays in Cleveland. It'd be nice for another smaller market to dominate the NBA for awhile. The Lakers look like they have their next dynasty brewing, the last thing I want is to see LA vs. NY or NJ dominate the basketbal landscape.

But I have a hunch that's exactly what will happen.

[Neuqua]

This is as good a time as any to bring up one of my favorite youtube clips:

YouTube - Zach Randolph Play Around Feb 24 2008 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lvYf08X6tc&eurl=http://deadspin.com/360793/isiah-thomas-knicks-legacy-summed-up-in-one-possession&feature=player_embedded)

[Chief Rum]

2) I think the Clippers are about as bizzare as it gets for a basketball team now. If I had to list a top 10 "selfish" players grouping, the Clippers would have three guys on the list. Davis and Randolph on offense mixed with Camby on defense. (how'd you like Camby's defense on the pick and roll against the Spurs the other night Chief? Watch the playoff series against the Spurs/Nuggets and you'll see Pop use that same play about 20 times a game. Camby will not challenge an outside shot on a pick and roll play. He'll ALWAYS go for the player moving toward the rim)

It will make the Clippers a better offensive team, but my God are they going to suck on defense.

Don't you ever get sick of bein' a hater, Troy? :D

Just learn to love, baby.

[TroyF]

Don't you ever get sick of bein' a hater, Troy? :D

Just learn to love, baby.


Don't be like that Chief. I do love. I love the fact the Nuggets have a real PG and are winning despite Melo shooting the ball like garbage. I like the fact we have a center who actually plays defense instead of getting out of position every possession going for blocked shots.

It's amazing, I watch Nuggets games now where the announcers are still talking about how huge of a loss Camby is. Also how huge of a loss AI is and how Billups is worse on defense.

Well, Detroit fans should see by now how opposing PG's are going to do against AI.

And as far as Camby goes? Well, the Nuggets this year are 5th in the NBA in adjusted FG%. Last year they finished 22nd in the league in the same category. Yeah, we miss Camby terribly.

One thing I'll say for your boys Chief. . . If Baron and Randolph get hot at the same time, I'm not sure how many teams in the league can beat them. The problem is I don't think they'll get hot at the same time more than 5 or 6 times this season. . . and when they don't, I have no idea how you are going to win basketball games.

[Chief Rum]

Don't be like that Chief. I do love. I love the fact the Nuggets have a real PG and are winning despite Melo shooting the ball like garbage. I like the fact we have a center who actually plays defense instead of getting out of position every possession going for blocked shots.

It's amazing, I watch Nuggets games now where the announcers are still talking about how huge of a loss Camby is. Also how huge of a loss AI is and how Billups is worse on defense.

Well, Detroit fans should see by now how opposing PG's are going to do against AI.

And as far as Camby goes? Well, the Nuggets this year are 5th in the NBA in adjusted FG%. Last year they finished 22nd in the league in the same category. Yeah, we miss Camby terribly.

One thing I'll say for your boys Chief. . . If Baron and Randolph get hot at the same time, I'm not sure how many teams in the league can beat them. The problem is I don't think they'll get hot at the same time more than 5 or 6 times this season. . . and when they don't, I have no idea how you are going to win basketball games.

Glad you're happy about your team.

As for mine, you musta missed last night's game. Yeah, we still sucked, but someone finally got the time to announce his arrival to the league, and he did so with gusto.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I don't watch too much ESPN, other than when there's a game on, and I know Cleveland just played the Knicks in New York, but I can't believe how much chatter there is about what LeBron is going to do in 2010.

We're more than a year and a half from this taking place and I'm already sick of this story. Unbelievable.

[TroyF]

Glad you're happy about your team.

As for mine, you musta missed last night's game. Yeah, we still sucked, but someone finally got the time to announce his arrival to the league, and he did so with gusto.

I like Gordon. I like the guy a lot. Actually another reason I don't really like the trade for Randolph. With Davis taking a zillion shots and Randolph taking a zillion shots, where are Kaman and Gordon going to get theirs? (two players I actually like quite a bit)

Only thing that scares me about Gordon is his size. He's 6'3", which isn't bad, but that leaves an aging Baron and an undersized Gordon as the perimeter defense. Neither Kaman, Camby or Randolph are great at defending the open shooter on the outside. Thornton also isn't a great defender.

Nuggets play the Clippers tonight. I'm worried about the game. We rarely play well in LA (against the Clippers or the Lakers) We are also fairly beat up and lack any depth at all with our bigs now. (Kenyon has a hurt wrist, will play, Anderson is still out) If Nene gets in early foul trouble, we may have a tough time stopping Kaman on the inside which will free up your shooters.

This is an important game for the Nuggets. Four games in five nights with NO and Houston being the second of the two back to backs. This game is one that would be nice to get.

[TroyF]

Good game Chief.

Some quick thoughts:

1) You guys have to make sure Gordon gets his shots. You cannot let Zach and Baron dominate the ball. The kid has some major talent and yet he ends up taking 14 shots in 42 minutes while Zach takes 11 shots in only 26 minutes. Thornton takes 12 shots in 28 minutes. Even your backup PG Taylor takes 9 shots in 17 minutes. I'm sorry, but Gordon needs more plays ran for him. Why he sat on the bench for this long is beyond me. Ricky Davis deserved time over this kid? Are you freakin kidding me?

2) If you saw the game, you saw the importance of Nene to the Nuggets. When he steps off the floor, we are a different team. Both times he was off at the end of halves, the Clippers made huge runs.

3) Melo and Chauncey continue to shoot the ball poorly, but keep everyone involved and are playing well. Melo probably had 4 passes last night that ended up as fouls for the person he fed the ball to. 30 points, 11 boards, 3 assists. Another solid night.

4) Camby taking the last three? Ummm. . . again, are you kidding me? Not his fault, but good lord.

5) Denver needs JR Smith to snap out of it. (didn't play last night, in the doghouse again) If he's taking those open threes off of Melo passes last night instead of Anthony Carter, we win that game a lot easier.

[Chief Rum]

Good game Chief.

Some quick thoughts:

1) You guys have to make sure Gordon gets his shots. You cannot let Zach and Baron dominate the ball. The kid has some major talent and yet he ends up taking 14 shots in 42 minutes while Zach takes 11 shots in only 26 minutes. Thornton takes 12 shots in 28 minutes. Even your backup PG Taylor takes 9 shots in 17 minutes. I'm sorry, but Gordon needs more plays ran for him. Why he sat on the bench for this long is beyond me. Ricky Davis deserved time over this kid? Are you freakin kidding me?

2) If you saw the game, you saw the importance of Nene to the Nuggets. When he steps off the floor, we are a different team. Both times he was off at the end of halves, the Clippers made huge runs.

3) Melo and Chauncey continue to shoot the ball poorly, but keep everyone involved and are playing well. Melo probably had 4 passes last night that ended up as fouls for the person he fed the ball to. 30 points, 11 boards, 3 assists. Another solid night.

4) Camby taking the last three? Ummm. . . again, are you kidding me? Not his fault, but good lord.

5) Denver needs JR Smith to snap out of it. (didn't play last night, in the doghouse again) If he's taking those open threes off of Melo passes last night instead of Anthony Carter, we win that game a lot easier.

Hi Troy,

Sorry I didn't get back to you on this right away. I was out of town for the holiday. That said, I think the Clips' follow up game Saturday adds needed perspective as well (at least to the Clips' end of things).

1) Completely agree that Gordon needs more shots, and advocated that from Day One. It wasn't Ricky Davis keeping him on the bench, but Mobley. Somehow Mobley developed into a team leader, and Dunleavy is a "veteran's coach". Stupid, but what can you say? As for Baron and Zach getting their shots, I think they have proven enough on the offensive end that they deserve those shots, and there are enough shots to go around for all three to get their points. Thornton is another issue (although he was very good Saturday). His shot selection needs to improve drastically before he is allowed to be taking tons of shots over those other three. Kaman deserves more shots than him, too. As for Taylor, obviously, he shouldn't be among the top shot takers on the team, but keep an eye on him. He is actually very good, and one of the reasons to be excited about the team's potential.

2) Agreed, Nene was huge. Way too often the help defense came off of him, allowing him to be there for feeds and to use his impressive strength and athleticism to jump to the ball off of the rim and complete some monster jams. Kaman's injury in the first quarter killed us there. He's the guy that really would have impacted Nene's game that night.

3) Like the Clips, the Nuggets are a team in transition somewhat, as people are trying to get used to new roles. I thought Billups looked terrific, proving he can pretty much fit in almost right away just about anywhere, because he's just such a smart player. As for Melo, he's as dumb as Billups is smart, but he's your classic example of the instinct player--he was just born to play. If he ever learns to use his head, he could be even more dangerous than he is.

4) No, it is his fault, partly. There was 4-5 seconds left on that clock when he took it. He had time to get it to someone better able to score. And we didn't need a three. Just stupid and thoughtless. And Baron was stupid jumping in the area without options. No, Camby is not an option, except as an emergency. I'm not sure there is a single player on the roster that was a worse option for that shot than Camby, and screw that beating his old team BS. That single decision ruined an otherwise pretty phenomenal game, considering the Clips played without Kaman (essentially) and Ricky Davis.

5) I'm sure you're right about J.R. Smith from the "if his head's right" perspective, but what's going on with him is pretty much exactly what I expected before the season, and what I was referring to when we talked about the Nuggets at the draft. I trust Ricky Davis more than JR Smith. Think about that. I can't stand Ricky Davis.

[Logan]

WTF is all this doing in a Knicks thread? ;)

[TroyF]

Hi Troy,

Sorry I didn't get back to you on this right away. I was out of town for the holiday. That said, I think the Clips' follow up game Saturday adds needed perspective as well (at least to the Clips' end of things).

1) Completely agree that Gordon needs more shots, and advocated that from Day One. It wasn't Ricky Davis keeping him on the bench, but Mobley. Somehow Mobley developed into a team leader, and Dunleavy is a "veteran's coach". Stupid, but what can you say? As for Baron and Zach getting their shots, I think they have proven enough on the offensive end that they deserve those shots, and there are enough shots to go around for all three to get their points. Thornton is another issue (although he was very good Saturday). His shot selection needs to improve drastically before he is allowed to be taking tons of shots over those other three. Kaman deserves more shots than him, too. As for Taylor, obviously, he shouldn't be among the top shot takers on the team, but keep an eye on him. He is actually very good, and one of the reasons to be excited about the team's potential.

2) Agreed, Nene was huge. Way too often the help defense came off of him, allowing him to be there for feeds and to use his impressive strength and athleticism to jump to the ball off of the rim and complete some monster jams. Kaman's injury in the first quarter killed us there. He's the guy that really would have impacted Nene's game that night.

3) Like the Clips, the Nuggets are a team in transition somewhat, as people are trying to get used to new roles. I thought Billups looked terrific, proving he can pretty much fit in almost right away just about anywhere, because he's just such a smart player. As for Melo, he's as dumb as Billups is smart, but he's your classic example of the instinct player--he was just born to play. If he ever learns to use his head, he could be even more dangerous than he is.

4) No, it is his fault, partly. There was 4-5 seconds left on that clock when he took it. He had time to get it to someone better able to score. And we didn't need a three. Just stupid and thoughtless. And Baron was stupid jumping in the area without options. No, Camby is not an option, except as an emergency. I'm not sure there is a single player on the roster that was a worse option for that shot than Camby, and screw that beating his old team BS. That single decision ruined an otherwise pretty phenomenal game, considering the Clips played without Kaman (essentially) and Ricky Davis.

5) I'm sure you're right about J.R. Smith from the "if his head's right" perspective, but what's going on with him is pretty much exactly what I expected before the season, and what I was referring to when we talked about the Nuggets at the draft. I trust Ricky Davis more than JR Smith. Think about that. I can't stand Ricky Davis.

Disagree on #5 Chief. Yeah, JR is an idiot. But as far as "trust" goes? I trust JR far more than Ricky. At the very least, I know that when JR gets minutes, he'll put the ball in the basket. He's also not nearly as selfish as Davis. Stupid? Oh yeah, really, really stupid. But selfish? Not really. He's a willing passer, he's just dumb.

Last night against the Rockets he came up huge. Melo went down in the first half. It was our 4th game in 5 nights. JR came on and was huge. Five three pointers and some great assists and only a couple of turnovers.

I also disagree slightly that the Nuggets are a team in transition. Yeah, they need to learn to play together and everyone is still getting a feel for Chauncey. . . but, this is the way the team should have been all along. Everyone seems comfortable in their roles. Denver is now 11-3 in the post AI era. The three losses were on the road to the Lakers and Cavs and a down to the wire nail biter against the Hornets on the second night of a back to back. (facing a rested Hornets team)

This team now has an identity and it's taking over close games in the second half. Something it rarely did with AI. This team is going to start making believers of people if Nene and Kenyon stay healthy.

Logan,

Why is this going on in a Knicks thread? Because there really isn't any real Knicks discussions now for two years. 2010 is when the Knicks start their rebuilding. With or without Lebron.

[Logan]

Oh don't worry, I don't care. It's just that whenever this gets bumped I keep hoping it's because of a Marbury buyout or a Curry exile.

[Lathum]

Marburry is a fucking idiot.

I really wish these atheletes like Marburry and Winslow would stop comparing themselves to military, it's insulting.

[Chief Rum]

Disagree on #5 Chief. Yeah, JR is an idiot. But as far as "trust" goes? I trust JR far more than Ricky. At the very least, I know that when JR gets minutes, he'll put the ball in the basket. He's also not nearly as selfish as Davis. Stupid? Oh yeah, really, really stupid. But selfish? Not really. He's a willing passer, he's just dumb.

Last night against the Rockets he came up huge. Melo went down in the first half. It was our 4th game in 5 nights. JR came on and was huge. Five three pointers and some great assists and only a couple of turnovers.

But, you see, that's exactly what I am talking about. I can "trust" Ricky Davis to be a popgun offense guy who will take stupid shots, be selfish and only give a half ass effort on D. I know I'll get a steal and a couple assists to go along with a poor shooting percentage and probably 7-8 points at the lowest possible efficiency. It's the same game every time he plays.

Meanwhile, JR can not play for two games and then suddenly have a game like you said against the Rockets. Can't depend on that at all. If Carter is there every night and gives you at least a little production you can count on, I'll take that over the "he's here now, where will he be tomorrow" JR Smith act.

Unfortunately for the Nuggets, Kenyon Martin's sorta the same way. I hope for your sake that your team doesn't have to depend on either of them, because it's a guaranteed first round flameout again if they do.

[TroyF]

But, you see, that's exactly what I am talking about. I can "trust" Ricky Davis to be a popgun offense guy who will take stupid shots, be selfish and only give a half ass effort on D. I know I'll get a steal and a couple assists to go along with a poor shooting percentage and probably 7-8 points at the lowest possible efficiency. It's the same game every time he plays.

Meanwhile, JR can not play for two games and then suddenly have a game like you said against the Rockets. Can't depend on that at all. If Carter is there every night and gives you at least a little production you can count on, I'll take that over the "he's here now, where will he be tomorrow" JR Smith act.

Unfortunately for the Nuggets, Kenyon Martin's sorta the same way. I hope for your sake that your team doesn't have to depend on either of them, because it's a guaranteed first round flameout again if they do.

JR is more consistent than you give him credit for. He's struggled badly this month, but he's generally played fairly consistently when he's been given minutes. Psychotic? Of course.

As for Kenyon, I'm not sure people realize how great of a player he is. Is he overpaid? Yeah. But counting on him? Oh, I can count on him on a nightly basis. He's going to OWN his man. Night in, night out. Last year Kenyon was the second best defensive player in the league in adjusted +/- ratings. (82games.com)

It's hard to get actual positional numbers for the guy, because he seriously plays everyone. In last years playoffs, he went man to man against Kobe. The other night, he was put man on man with no help against Yao Ming in the fourth quarter. And he shut the guy down.

All Kenyon does is play great defense, average close to 2 steals and 1.5 blocks a game, play unselfish offense, shoot over 50% and play hard as hell for 30 minutes a night.

The scary thing about counting on Kenyon is his health. That's also the scary thing with Nene. If those two can stay healthy, Denver will be a top 4 seed and they'll get out of the first round. If either go down for an extended amount of time, Denver claws and fight their way to an 8th seed and then gets bounced in the first round again. Everyone bashes Denver for not getting out of round one, but the reason they never get out of round one is because of things that happen in the regular season. They consistently are the 7th or 8th seed going up against the Spurs or Lakers on the road, what the hell do people expect when that happens?

Do I expect our health to hold out? No. I'm a Nuggets fan. We once lost starting players for the year in game one in back to back seasons. Nene has never been fully healthy. KMart is playing on two microfractures. We have zero depth as far as the bigs are concerned. Losing either Kenyon or Nene would be a disasterous blow. And it's probably going to happen.

But if they stay healthy? If Denver can get 70+ games from Nene, Kenyon and not have a season ending injury to Melo, Billups or JR? You can book it, Denver will be a top 4 seed.

[Gary Gorski]

The scary thing about counting on Kenyon is his health. That's also the scary thing with Nene. If those two can stay healthy, Denver will be a top 4 seed and they'll get out of the first round.

I think because of the injuries people forget that Kenyon was the #1 overall pick in 2000 - he's a hell of a player....when healthy and much like you I just don't see both him and Nene staying healthy all year. If they do, Denver's definitely got a solid starting lineup. But I think its just too much of a risk relying on both staying healthy, let alone one even staying healthy given their pasts.

BTW, is the 2000 draft the worst draft ever? The top 10

1, Kenyon Martin
2. Stromile Swift
3. Darius Miles
4. Marcus Fizer
5. Mike Miller
6. DerMarr Johnson
7. Chris Mihm
8. Jamal Crawford
9. Joel Pryzbilla
10. Keyon Dooling

You had Turkoglu at 16 and Michael Redd at 43 - other than that its total crap. Quentin Richardson and Morris Peterson had a few good years but when they're probably the 6th and 7th best players out of that draft you know it was ugly.

[Izulde]

I think because of the injuries people forget that Kenyon was the #1 overall pick in 2000 - he's a hell of a player....when healthy and much like you I just don't see both him and Nene staying healthy all year. If they do, Denver's definitely got a solid starting lineup. But I think its just too much of a risk relying on both staying healthy, let alone one even staying healthy given their pasts.

BTW, is the 2000 draft the worst draft ever? The top 10

1, Kenyon Martin
2. Stromile Swift
3. Darius Miles
4. Marcus Fizer
5. Mike Miller
6. DerMarr Johnson
7. Chris Mihm
8. Jamal Crawford
9. Joel Pryzbilla
10. Keyon Dooling

You had Turkoglu at 16 and Michael Redd at 43 - other than that its total crap. Quentin Richardson and Morris Peterson had a few good years but when they're probably the 6th and 7th best players out of that draft you know it was ugly.

This reminds me of a couple drafts I've had in my DDS:PB dynasty. :D

[TroyF]

I think because of the injuries people forget that Kenyon was the #1 overall pick in 2000 - he's a hell of a player....when healthy and much like you I just don't see both him and Nene staying healthy all year. If they do, Denver's definitely got a solid starting lineup. But I think its just too much of a risk relying on both staying healthy, let alone one even staying healthy given their pasts.

BTW, is the 2000 draft the worst draft ever? The top 10

1, Kenyon Martin
2. Stromile Swift
3. Darius Miles
4. Marcus Fizer
5. Mike Miller
6. DerMarr Johnson
7. Chris Mihm
8. Jamal Crawford
9. Joel Pryzbilla
10. Keyon Dooling

You had Turkoglu at 16 and Michael Redd at 43 - other than that its total crap. Quentin Richardson and Morris Peterson had a few good years but when they're probably the 6th and 7th best players out of that draft you know it was ugly.

Not just a good starting lineup Gary, a fairly solid bench. The only issue with the bench is that the guys on it are great bench players, but not players who can come in and start. Example: Linus Kleiza, Chris Anderson and Anthony Carter. All three are terrific 20 minute a night players. Can any of them step in and play for 30+ minutes? Not a chance in hell.

As for Kenyon and Nene, I don't think they can stay healthy. The only cause for any kind of optimism is these two things:

1) Kenyon played in 71 games last year and says his knees are both stronger this year. He's always been a workout demon and is in great physical shape.

2) Nene is only 26 years old. His knee injury is three years old now and the things that impacted him the last two years (cancer and various muscle strains due to being out of shape) are in the past.

What would I say the odds are? I'll go with 40% that both stay healthy and 65 to 70% that one stays healthy.

That draft was a joke. Hell, it could be argued Brian Cardinal was a top ten player from that draft. Painful. Only Kenyon and Redd ever made an all star team out of that draft. FWIW, I think the Nuggets have had 8 members of that draft class on the roster at one point or another, including 6 first rounders. (Kenyon, Dermarr Johnson, Courtney Alexander, Mateen Cleeves, Donnell Harvey, Ndai, Najera, McClintok)

Only Kenyon and Eddie ever really did anything for us. The rest were gone fairly quickly.