Black Friday ....Wal-Mart Employee Trampled to Death by Customers

[Glengoyne]

This might indicate our society has hit a new all time low.

Story Here (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/29/business/29walmart.html)

Wal-Mart (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/wal_mart_stores_inc/index.html?inline=nyt-org) employee in suburban New York died after being trampled by a crush of shoppers who tore down the front doors and thronged into the store early Friday morning, turning the annual rite of post-Thanksgiving (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/t/thanksgiving_day/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) bargain hunting into a frenzy. The 34-year-old employee, who was not identified, was knocked down by a crowd that broke down the doors of the Wal-Mart at the Green Acres Mall in Valley Stream, N.Y., and surged into the store. He was pronounced dead at a nearby hospital at 6 a.m.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Wow.

We are an empire in decline.

[Lathum]

such a sad commentary on our society

[GrantDawg]

I just can't tell you how sick that makes me. The employee and a baby lose their life. It is sad what happens when humans get in large groups with high emotions. Just about anything can happen, and usually it is not good.

[GrantDawg]

such a sad commentary on our society


Not to defend it, but it really isn't. It is a psychological factor of what happens in groups. Every society have the same kind of potential for such insanity, and it really doesn't matter what the catalyst is (such as a soccer match, or a political rally).

[JonInMiddleGA]

I started to post this earlier but waited, hoping I guess that I'd see a correction on the story.

Simply pathetic and I'm actually surprised it hasn't happened more often.

[Lathum]

Not to defend it, but it really isn't. It is a psychological factor of what happens in groups. Every society have the same kind of potential for such insanity, and it really doesn't matter what the catalyst is (such as a soccer match, or a political rally).

you can't be serious.

IMO it is a sad commentary when a bunch of white trash tramples and kills a poor guy working for minimum wage so they can be the first to get the new Larry the cable guy CD for 4 bucks off.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

such a sad commentary on our society

This has little to do with society. Wal-Mart has been well known for being one of the few major retailers dumb enough to not have a crowd control system in place. This was bound to happen and I'm honestly surprised that it hasn't happened sooner.

Places like Best Buy along with many other retailers have a line queue along with handing out tickets for the major items to avoid this kind of a situation. In addition, they cut off the line of consumers at certain intervals to make sure there isn't an overwhelming surge of people into the store without some people leaving the store first. It's common sense, but evidently Wal-Mart hadn't caught on to that. I'll bet my life savings that they'll have a system in place at every single Wal-Mart next year after this incident.

[JonInMiddleGA]

This has little to do with society.

Horseshit.

Some guy died today because a bunch of idiots wanted to save 10% on a bunch of crap they didn't need.

Hopefully this incident will combine with the anticipated lack of success to be the beginning of the end of the whole Black Friday absurdity.

[GrantDawg]

you can't be serious.

IMO it is a sad commentary when a bunch of white trash tramples and kills a poor guy working for minimum wage so they can be the first to get the new Larry the cable guy CD for 4 bucks off.


I am serious, and don't call me Shirley. :)

It is a sad commentary of the human condition that we lose a part of our conscience when in group-think (actually I don't think that is the right term, but something to that affect), but if you don't think the exact same thing happens across cultures/time, you are kidding yourself.

[Lathum]

Wal Mart deserves fault for certain, but a group of adults, many with children, should know better then to act like that. And the fact they didn't is a sad commentary on our society.

Comparing them to bunch of drunk soccer hooligans is a stretch, IMO

[GrantDawg]

Wal Mart deserves fault for certain, but a group of adults, many with children, should know better then to act like that. And the fact they didn't is a sad commentary on our society.

Comparing them to bunch of drunk soccer hooligans is a stretch, IMO


No. it is not. Study a little Psychology and get back to me.

[Lathum]

but if you don't think the exact same thing happens across cultures/time, you are kidding yourself.

I know it happens in other cultures. I also remember a time when we treated each other with respect in this country and those days are gone.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Horseshit.

Some guy died today because a bunch of idiots wanted to save 10% on a bunch of crap they didn't need.

Hopefully this incident will combine with the anticipated lack of success to be the beginning of the end of the whole Black Friday absurdity.

Obviously, you chose the portion of my quote that fit your point. Wal-Mart has to shoulder most of the blame in this situation. They failed to provide a safe shopping situation and it ended up costing a man his life.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I know it happens in other cultures. I also remember a time when we treated each other with respect in this country and those days are gone.

While this kind of sensationalism wins elections, it holds little basis in fact. It's easy to point out the exception rather than the rule. This country still has a wealth of people that go out of their way to help each other. Don't let a few bad apples paint the whole picture. There's still plenty of good, but bad news sells.

[GrantDawg]

Obviously, you chose the portion of my quote that fit your point. Wal-Mart has to shoulder most of the blame in this situation. They failed to provide a safe shopping situation and it ended up costing a man his life.


And an unborn child. Wal-mart definitely bears the brunt. I doubt much will change, though. Probably more security measures across the board for the next few years, and then they will weaken until it happens again in a few more years. Money is much more important than a few lives here in there in corporate America.

[Buccaneer]

And an unborn child. Wal-mart definitely bears the brunt. I doubt much will change, though. Probably more security measures across the board for the next few years, and then they will weaken until it happens again in a few more years. Money is much more important than a few lives here in there in corporate America.

Especially when all they do is to feed the demand for the wasteful, needless crap that consumers think they HAVE to have. This ranges from Larry the Cable Guy DVDs to 50" TVs to consoles or whatever crap you feel you need. So there.

[Radii]

While this kind of sensationalism wins elections, it holds little basis in fact. It's easy to point out the exception rather than the rule. This country still has a wealth of people that go out of their way to help each other. Don't let a few bad apples paint the whole picture. There's still plenty of good, but bad news sells.

Linking this to what GrantDawg has been posting, I bet many of the people in the crowd in this story are good people that would go out of their way to help each other as well. But, market crazy limited time, limited supply sales and encourage this kind of behavior(b/c all these retailers are counting on this kind of hype around Black Friday and do what they can to help generate it), don't have the proper security measures in place to keep the initial frenzy under control, and otherwise good people in a crowd revert to some sort of herd structure and go crazy.

[Mustang]

While this kind of sensationalism wins elections, it holds little basis in fact. It's easy to point out the exception rather than the rule. This country still has a wealth of people that go out of their way to help each other. Don't let a few bad apples paint the whole picture. There's still plenty of good, but bad news sells.

At our Walmart, each pallet had a line of people that were interested in whatever deal was going on then at 5:00 AM, they started handing them out and everyone just filed past and got their particular item they were interested in.

One person tried to cut in line around 4:45 and people in that section of the line just said ahh.. no, sorry, the back of the line is there. Of course, that person got pissed and told us all to grow up. (Which was rather odd because the people in line were the owns acting grown up...)

I don't think Wal-mart goes to a ticket system because I think they love the mass hysteria (for whatever reason)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Wal-Mart has to shoulder most of the blame in this situation.

Also utter & complete horseshit.

The responsibility lies squarely on the shoulders of the morons who participated in the stampede. Hopefully a combination of security cameras & subsequent credit card receipts (because you know they didn't stop shopping) will lead to multiple criminal prosecutions & some lengthy sentences.

[Radii]

Also utter & complete horseshit.

The responsibility lies squarely on the shoulders of the morons who participated in the stampede. Hopefully a combination of security cameras & subsequent credit card receipts (because you know they didn't stop shopping) will lead to multiple criminal prosecutions & some lengthy sentences.

The people involved certainly aren't free of any responsibility, but Wal-Mart is absolutely encouraging this kind of behavior and by not being prepared to safely handle it they deserve a solid share of the blame.

[ISiddiqui]

Yes, it is ultimately Wal-Mart's fault. They could have done much more to prevent this sort of thing from happening. But yes, in mass groups that are riled this sort of thing tends to happen, unfortunately. There always seems to be a trampling once a year at a soccer match or at Mecca during the Haj. Retailers should be trying to prevent that crap though.

[digamma]

No. it is not. Study a little Psychology and get back to me.

What GD said.

Maybe the reason for the crowd gathering is a comment on society, but crowd behavior, whether it be mob or herd mentality, and the effects of it are certainly not unique to the US or this day and age.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Linking this to what GrantDawg has been posting, I bet many of the people in the crowd in this story are good people that would go out of their way to help each other as well. But, market crazy limited time, limited supply sales and encourage this kind of behavior(b/c all these retailers are counting on this kind of hype around Black Friday and do what they can to help generate it), don't have the proper security measures in place to keep the initial frenzy under control, and otherwise good people in a crowd revert to some sort of herd structure and go crazy.

I'm sure that most people have been in a somewhat scary stampede situation like this before. I know I have. If the crowd control is properly done, this never would happen. As it is, you have a lot of tightly packed people squeezing forward and they have little option but to move forward. Anyone who would try to stop in the middle of that group would likely get trampled much like the guy who died. At that point, it becomes less about the sale and suddenly about survival.

[FrogMan]

And an unborn child.

you have another article to confirm that?

All I see in that article is:
The police said that three other shoppers were injured and a 28-year-old pregnant woman was taken to the hospital for observation.

"for observation" does not necessarily mean the baby died, does it?

FM

[Schmidty]

Can't people stop over-thinking and just say it's fucking sad? Who cares about psychology and societal implications - the people that stepped on or over him knowingly were assholes. It's simple.

Poor guy.

[Samdari]

According the the story linked on the front page of CNN.com:

"A 34-year-old Wal-Mart employee suffered an apparent heart attack and was rushed to a nearby hospital, where he was pronounced dead."

Worker dies in Black Friday store rush - 11/28/08 - New York News and Tri-State News - 7online.com (http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local&id=6529135)

That is quite different than trampled to death by a mob.

[GrantDawg]

you have another article to confirm that?

All I see in that article is:


"for observation" does not necessarily mean the baby died, does it?

FM


Let me see if I can find it, but an earlier article said she actually lost the baby at the seen.


Ok, they changed the article. They are now saying the baby is ok.

[Raiders Army]

So sad because there isn't anything on sale at Wal-Mart that is worth a person's life. Wal-Mart created the conditions that allowed the people to trample someone to death. While I normally advocate personal responsibility, this is definitely something that Wal-Mart could've prevented.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

According the the story linked on the front page of CNN.com:

"A 34-year-old Wal-Mart employee suffered an apparent heart attack and was rushed to a nearby hospital, where he was pronounced dead."

That is quite different than trampled to death by a mob.

How he died is irrelevant. When you have 4 other people with injuries in the same spot and the guy who died was knocked to the ground, it becomes obvious that it was much more than just a guy slumping over from a heart attack. If there weren't any other injuries, I'd be much more inclined to agree with you.

[GrantDawg]

Can't people stop over-thinking and just say it's fucking sad? Who cares about psychology and societal implications - the people that stepped on or over him knowingly were assholes. It's simple.

Poor guy.


Yeah, let's all stop thinking.

Actually, read about early happenings like this. When people stopped and tried to help the victims, they were killed/injured as well. That is why charges are very doubtful, and it is not exactly a sign of evil if you did step over/on the person in question. The people most at fault generally are the people that may be 30-50 feet away and have no idea anyone is down and being stepped on. They are just pushing the crowd in front of them trying to get in.

So, yes, it is Walmart's fault (if there was trampling done. If it was a heart attack, then I guess not). Crowd security would prevent this frenzy, but instead they foster it.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

At our Walmart, each pallet had a line of people that were interested in whatever deal was going on then at 5:00 AM, they started handing them out and everyone just filed past and got their particular item they were interested in.

One person tried to cut in line around 4:45 and people in that section of the line just said ahh.. no, sorry, the back of the line is there. Of course, that person got pissed and told us all to grow up. (Which was rather odd because the people in line were the owns acting grown up...)

I don't think Wal-mart goes to a ticket system because I think they love the mass hysteria (for whatever reason)

I'm going to assume that you are talking about a 24/7 Wal-Mart location. Those situations are much better organized because you have people inside the store in line rather than a sudden rush. I have a similar 24/7 location near my home and I'd agree that it's well handled.

The location where this incident occured was not a 24/7 Wal-Mart, so they had the rush of people that they should have dealt with.

[Samdari]

How he died is irrelevant. When you have 4 other people with injuries in the same spot and the guy who died was knocked to the ground, it becomes obvious that it was much more than just a guy slumping over from a heart attack. If there weren't any other injuries, I'd be much more inclined to agree with you.

The cause of death not being attributable to a mob is irrelevant to a story saying that he was killed by that mob?

Sure, the mob may have induced stress, and been a trigger but heart attack is NEVER from stress alone, there is always an underlying medical cause. This guy died because something was wrong with his heart, not because he was trampled. I think that's quite different. They might have sped it up, but they did not cause it.

[Raiders Army]

It's not like Wal-Mart didn't know this could happen...

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[Logan]

This country still has a wealth of people that go out of their way to help each other. Don't let a few bad apples paint the whole picture. There's still plenty of good, but bad news sells.

About an hour ago, I was on the subway and a woman started having a panic attack -- I was very proud of how many people jumped up to help her and showed genuine concern.

That's all.

[Anthony]

Especially when all they do is to feed the demand for the wasteful, needless crap that consumers think they HAVE to have. This ranges from Larry the Cable Guy DVDs to 50" TVs to consoles or whatever crap you feel you need. So there.

just cuz you want to live the life of a pauper don't put down people who want to spend their hard earned money on products. what's the point of living if you're just going to go to work and wait to die? you can't take your money with you. aside from bread to eat, a place to sleep at nite to protect you from the elements and a burlap sack to cover your body in we don't need much. anything outside of that is excess. some people waste money on useless products, others waste time posting curmudgeonly stick in the mud thoughts on a tiny text sim website. it's all wasteful.

but as Sheryll Crow once sang, if it makes you happy - it can't be that bad.

[Anthony]

i alway say "money is only paper until you use it". am i gonna light my cigars with $10 bills just to prove that point? no. but i'm also not going to hesitate to reach into my wallet to buy something that's going to bring a smile to my loved ones. if that makes me wasteful then so be it. me buying a useless "gotta have" product makes my loved ones happy and puts money in a store's cash register which allows it to be able to afford to employ some schmoe who can put food on his family's table.

[Anthony]

i live on Long Island (fortunately far enough away from green acres mall). let's just say that particular area of Long Island, or more accurately the demographic of the people who predominantly go to that specific mall is such that they should call it brown acres mall, if you can read between the lines. i make no judgement or offer any further comments, but i will add that when i heard this particular incident happened in green acres mall i chortled cuz it really isn't a surprise given the quality of people who shop there. i shop mostly at roosevelt field mall which generally has a more civilized client base. i would love to be able to afford to consistently shop at the miracle mile where they have the high end stores one finds in beverly hills. and no, you won't ever hear of this happening in roosevelt field mall nor at the miracle mile.

[MikeVic]

I don't know how to read into brown acres mall.

[Anthony]

I don't know how to read into brown acres mall.

i'll PM you.:cool:

[ISiddiqui]

just cuz you want to live the life of a pauper don't put down people who want to spend their hard earned money on products. what's the point of living if you're just going to go to work and wait to die? you can't take your money with you. aside from bread to eat, a place to sleep at nite to protect you from the elements and a burlap sack to cover your body in we don't need much. anything outside of that is excess. some people waste money on useless products, others waste time posting curmudgeonly stick in the mud thoughts on a tiny text sim website. it's all wasteful.

but as Sheryll Crow once sang, if it makes you happy - it can't be that bad.

QFT!

What's the point in holding on to your money when you are gone? Live a little, though, of course, anything done to excess is bad.

[BYU 14]

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by GrantDawg http://operationsports.com/fofc/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?p=1894718#post1894718)
Not to defend it, but it really isn't. It is a psychological factor of what happens in groups. Every society have the same kind of potential for such insanity, and it really doesn't matter what the catalyst is (such as a soccer match, or a political rally).

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

you can't be serious.

IMO it is a sad commentary when a bunch of white trash tramples and kills a poor guy working for minimum wage so they can be the first to get the new Larry the cable guy CD for 4 bucks off.

Grant actually has a valid point and the book "Among the Thugs", which is an inside look at Soccer hooliganism in the UK during the 1980's examines these theories in depth and offers some eye opening insight.

That said, I just can't fathom how fucking consumed a mob of people can get with saving a few dollars. Senseless and stupid and I hope Walmart takes another big financial hit for this one, so they finally get their shit together and provide some adequate control/security measures.

[terpkristin]

I give up.
More Black Friday Bloodshed: 2 Dead After Shooting at Toys R Us (http://gizmodo.com/5099896/more-black-friday-bloodshed-2-dead-after-shooting-at-toys-r-us)

/tk

[rowech]

As long as everybody remembers what's being celebrated...

It's not Walmart's fault. It is every store who has one of these sales and every person who participates in such a manner. It's pure insanity that this is what it's become about. There are times when I wish the second coming would just get here already.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Nassau police said about 2,000 people were gathered outside the store doors at the mall about 20 miles east of Manhattan. The impatient crowd knocked the man to the ground as he opened the doors, leaving a metal portion of the frame crumpled like an accordion.

"This crowd was out of control," said Nassau police spokesman Lt. Michael Fleming. He described the scene as "utter chaos."

Dozens of store employees trying to fight their way out to help the man were also getting trampled by the crowd, Fleming said. Witnesses said that even as the worker lay on the ground, shoppers streamed into the store, stepping over him.

Kimberly Cribbs, who witnessed the stampede, said shoppers were acting like "savages."

"When they were saying they had to leave, that an employee got killed, people were yelling 'I've been on line since yesterday morning,'" she said. "They kept shopping."

They bent the metal frame around the f'n door. For those crying about "adequate crowd control", what did you want them to do, have the National Guard on stand-by?

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2008/11/29/amd_walmart_crowd.jpg

http://www.nydailynews.com/money/galleries/walmart_stampede_captured_in_pictures/walmart_stampede_captured_in_pictures.html

[lungs]

I saw the same type of thing with my cattle the other day.

Sometimes I seriously believe humans are no better than cattle. Black Friday turns people into cattle.

[Buccaneer]

QFT!

What's the point in holding on to your money when you are gone? Live a little, though, of course, anything done to excess is bad.

And that's the point. Why get a 50" TV when a 42" will do? Why constantly be in debt paying for new cars when one can have older cars that are paid for? In other words, why strive to have the latest and greatest? There is nothing wrong with having electronics, gadgets, cars, etc., I have plenty of them. It's the excess that people go through to go deeper in debt just so they can have more stuff. Want to make even more people happy? Give your some of your excesses (money, goods, time) to charitable causes this holiday season.

[sterlingice]

I give up.
More Black Friday Bloodshed: 2 Dead After Shooting at Toys R Us (http://gizmodo.com/5099896/more-black-friday-bloodshed-2-dead-after-shooting-at-toys-r-us)

/tk

I read about that one and CNN and it kindof sounds like a domestic disturbance that happened to be on Black Friday in front of a Toys R Us.

SI

[SFL Cat]

This really angers me. Such a senseless, stupid way to die.

[Lathum]

Nassau police said about 2,000 people were gathered outside the store doors at the mall about 20 miles east of Manhattan. The impatient crowd knocked the man to the ground as he opened the doors, leaving a metal portion of the frame crumpled like an accordion.

"This crowd was out of control," said Nassau police spokesman Lt. Michael Fleming. He described the scene as "utter chaos."

Dozens of store employees trying to fight their way out to help the man were also getting trampled by the crowd, Fleming said. Witnesses said that even as the worker lay on the ground, shoppers streamed into the store, stepping over him.

Kimberly Cribbs, who witnessed the stampede, said shoppers were acting like "savages."

"When they were saying they had to leave, that an employee got killed, people were yelling 'I've been on line since yesterday morning,'" she said. "They kept shopping."

They bent the metal frame around the f'n door. For those crying about "adequate crowd control", what did you want them to do, have the National Guard on stand-by?

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2008/11/29/amd_walmart_crowd.jpg

The Wal-mart stampede, caught on camera (http://www.nydailynews.com/money/galleries/walmart_stampede_captured_in_pictures/walmart_stampede_captured_in_pictures.html)

exactly JIMG. These people are 95% to blame.

[Mustang]

I saw the same type of thing with my cattle the other day.

Your cattle were shopping at Wal-mart?

[CU Tiger]

They bent the metal frame around the f'n door. For those crying about "adequate crowd control", what did you want them to do, have the National Guard on stand-by?


You dont need thee National Guard.
You simply wal outside with a mega phone 1 hour before hand and tell everyone to get in a single file line. You ask one by one what "Deal" they are there for and hand out vouchers.

You inform until everyone listens the doors dont open.
Then you let in 10-15 at a time, of course informing people ahead of time how it will happen at exactly 5AM....

Lets not be obtuse and insinuate we need AR-15s to control soccer moms, or basketball moms as HA would have us insist.

Like it or not, the people are responsible for trampling a man, Wal Mart is responsible for the gross negligence that allowed it to happen on their property.

If I fall and break a leg in your yard it is my fault. If I fall in a giant hole you knew was there and covered it with thin twigs and leaves it becomes your fault.

[Cringer]

I saw the same type of thing with my cattle the other day.

Sometimes I seriously believe humans are no better than cattle. Black Friday turns people into cattle.

Well, we actually are animals, so animal behavior shouldn't be unexpected.

[lungs]

Your cattle were shopping at Wal-mart?

Nope, just stampeding and running each other over. Other than the clear anatomical differences, it would've probably appeared about the same as this was.

[tarcone]

My wife went to JoAnnes this morning and got there at 7:30. For those that done know, JoAnnes is a fabric store. When she arrived she was greeted with 2 women arguing over fabric. It escalated to the point that one was threatening to call 9-1-1.
What a stupid day. Black Friday. Give me a break.

[terpkristin]

My wife went to JoAnnes this morning and got there at 7:30. For those that done know, JoAnnes is a fabric store. When she arrived she was greeted with 2 women arguing over fabric. It escalated to the point that one was threatening to call 9-1-1.
What a stupid day. Black Friday. Give me a break.

I'm sorry, this kind of makes me laugh. I'm picturing 2 older ladies fighting over a fabric spool. Older, heavyset ladies with blue hair, who are the only people I ever seem to see at my local Jo-Ann's.

But all in all, I agree, Black Friday is silly. I can understand wanting deals, but I have no patience for the stupidity this kind of thing produces.

/tk

[gstelmack]

It's not like any of this is new, and it's why so many retailers are figuring out how to make it sane. Cabbage Patch Kids anyone?

Cabbage Patch Kids - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabbage_Patch_Kids)

Used to be huge fights over those at Christmas, some of the earliest fights over toys I remember.

[rowech]

It's not like any of this is new, and it's why so many retailers are figuring out how to make it sane. Cabbage Patch Kids anyone?

Cabbage Patch Kids - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabbage_Patch_Kids)

Used to be huge fights over those at Christmas, some of the earliest fights over toys I remember.

My father-in-law tells the story of how he won a Cabbage Patch doll for a business drawing and because of that, had to try and buy another one so both daughters could have one. He said, in hindsight he should have just sold the thing because getting the second one was one of the worst experiences of his life.

[rowech]

I can't even look at those pictures without having racist thoughts.

[AlexB]

You dont need thee National Guard.
You simply wal outside with a mega phone 1 hour before hand and tell everyone to get in a single file line. You ask one by one what "Deal" they are there for and hand out vouchers.

You inform until everyone listens the doors dont open.
Then you let in 10-15 at a time, of course informing people ahead of time how it will happen at exactly 5AM....

Meanwhile, in the real world...

I love the anachronism in the use of 'thee' - kind of sums it up.

[Noop]

Our entire culture has become very disturbing, it is amazing how easy it is to work up the masses into some mindless endeavor. I avoid large crowds for that particular reason because people can be assholes and I have a bad temper.

Last time I was in a line with a friend to get Halo we almost got into a fight because people started pushing. I remember telling my friend that next week the allure would have wore of this wanting to be apart of this midnight launch.

[Schmidty]

Yeah, let's all stop thinking.

I didn't say stop thinking. Did you see something else?

I just said stop overthinking. React to that. That's fine, but don't change what I actually said or meant, otherwise you look foolish.


I had stuff written here, but I just decided to let it go.

[JonInMiddleGA]

CU Tiger -- if you think that mob was going to pay attention to anybody with a megaphone you're living in a dream world.

They bitched because the store closed after they killed the guy for God's sake, you think some assistant manager or rent-a-cop was going to do anything?

edit to add: What W-M does need to take a long look at though are the locations they're choosing to open stores in as well as what level of control over their patronage they exert 365 days a year. At least one location in particular comes to my mind in Georgia where it's nothing short of a miracle that the same thing hasn't happened already (parking lot shootings are already pretty commonplace at that one).

[Mustang]

CU Tiger -- if you think that mob was going to pay attention to anybody with a megaphone you're living in a dream world.


Depends on the part of the country. Something like that has a higher rate of success probably in more rural parts than urban. In New York City, I'd expect the person talking with the bullhorn to have it rammed up his ass somewhere around 5:01 AM...

But, doesn't matter if everyone 'obeys the horn', all you need is one cock goblin to fuck it up and it turns into a melee over Ishtar.

[Mota]

It's the herd mentality.

I go to concerts and join in the mosh pits all the time. You get thrown all over the place. I've lost shoes, been elbowed, been knocked over, etc. It happens. You get back up. And it isn't the guy beside you that's doing it, it's the guys 20-30 rows back that are trying to get to where you are (but you're not letting them) that cause all of the ruckus.

You also need to have situational awareness if you're in this kind of crowd. People are banging down the doors, I'm sure it was load and chaotic. If you cannot follow the herd you need to get out of the way. Out of shape, fat people, pregnant women and old people have no right to be in a stampede. If you watch that video the lady that got stampeded was out of shape and couldn't get back up because she was so large. That's asking for trouble. When there's a riot going on and you CHOOSE to take part in it, you have to shoulder part of the blame yourself. Going back to my mosh pit mentality, I have been part of some pits that got scary because people were getting violent. I decided to pull myself out of the situation before I got hurt.

And I do not blame the people for this, I blame the establishment for causing this huge frenzy. Huge marketing, and a limited amount of stock that's been heavily discounted. No crowd control either, when you line them up outside the store and the deals are at the back of the store, you will have total chaos as people knock each other over to be the first ones there. Just look at the sign calling it a Blitz lineup. In FOFC we should all know what a blitz is. Wal-Mart got exactly what they asked for.

[Mota]

LOL people are so dumb. I just saw an image of a guy fighting a crowd to buy a Sylvania TV.

[Anthony]

Want to make even more people happy? Give your some of your excesses (money, goods, time) to charitable causes this holiday season.

some might say charity doesn't really make anyone happy other than the one doing the donating. some might say charity makes people more dependent. i don't give to charity, that's what my taxes are for. my tax dollars go towards government programs and community projects - i don't need to let my family go without just so i can walk around with a "I'm a good samaritan" button.

i don't think you'll find many people here who'll say "i bought a 42" plasma last year, but because my neighbor Bob just got a 50" plasma i gotta keep up and get a 52". no one is just buying things for the heck of it - not in this crazy market. whatever gifts i buy my wife are coming straight out of my paycheck. i've been forcing myself to live on a $200 a month budget since October just to be able to afford the gifts i want to get my wife. its insulting to have some holier than thou person walk with his head high thinking i'm petty and wasteful cuz i rather sacrifice to get my loved ones nice things instead of hand out dinner rolls in a soup kitchen.

[judicial clerk]

I think the biggest indicator from this story that our society is in a downward spiral is that people want to hold walmart responsible. If this guy were trampled, common sense would dictate that the people who trampled him were responsible. But we have been so trained to look to the deep pocket that we immediately villify walmart instead of holding individuals responsible for their behavior.

[Mustang]

i don't think you'll find many people here who'll say "i bought a 42" plasma last year, but because my neighbor Bob just got a 50" plasma i gotta keep up and get a 52".

Bob has been flaunting his shit for awhile. You need to buy a 108" and shut that bastard down.

[Anthony]

i woke up at 10 to 6am this morning to try to get to Best Buy cuz they had a ridiculous deal on a Toshiba laptop. my wife would've flipped over twice if i got her a laptop (it was $699 and with $220 instant savings they were selling for $379). so i'm on line at best buy, line was moving quickly. but they were letting in people in groups. no stampeding. and they had workers outside along the line kinda keeping a presence, along with workers at the front door to control the number of people walking in. emphasis on the word "walking in" (as opposed to stampeding in). ultimately i didn't go in cuz after 10 min on line and pretty close to the door i struck up a conversation with one of the workers and he said unless i had a ticket to purchase that laptop it was virtually impossible i'd get one, but he pointed out i could "buy a different laptop". with me being on a budget it was either buy that laptop for $379 or not buy it. he told me people started to line up around 1pm on Thanksgiving just to get those tickets. i decided to call it a day and go back home to catch some more sleep before work.

anyway, the point is best buy managed their crowd superbly. the line moved fast and there wasn't a hint of any kind of chaos in the air.

[Anthony]

I think the biggest indicator from this story that our society is in a downward spiral is that people want to hold walmart responsible. If this guy were trampled, common sense would dictate that the people who trampled him were responsible. But we have been so trained to look to the deep pocket that we immediately villify walmart instead of holding individuals responsible for their behavior.

i was talking about this story with my wife at dinner and i got a little heated trying to comprehend the depraved animalistic mindset people need to be in in order to trample other humans. think about it - we're not talking about the running of the bulls in pamplona here. we're talking about humans. you need to make a conscious decision to actually trample someone. in order to trample someone you have to physically place your foot/feet on the body of a human laying on the ground. seriously - if you were jogging and you didn't see someone was laying on the ground in front of you odds are you'd trip over them and fall. but if you did see them you'd at least have two options - hurdle over them or step on them. so to bring it back to WalMart - this is a situation where seemingly civilized humans (afterall, we're not talking about human-sacrificing Mayans or canabalistic tribes in the Amazon here, i'm assuming these people have learned to use utensils to eat their food) made a dinstinct decision that it was better to step on someone just so they could get [insert item here]. you really gotta have a mass of lowlife people all thinking the same thing in order for that to happen.

[ISiddiqui]

I think the biggest indicator from this story that our society is in a downward spiral is that people want to hold walmart responsible. If this guy were trampled, common sense would dictate that the people who trampled him were responsible. But we have been so trained to look to the deep pocket that we immediately villify walmart instead of holding individuals responsible for their behavior.

So you are saying a business could have taken common sense approaches to prevent this sort of thing and didn't and the fact we are calling them on it is a sign of societal downward spiral?! I think its a sign that we as a society are starting to mature. In the past, we may have let Walmart off the hook.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Gee HA, I can't help but wonder if the demographics of the shoppers you found at Best Buy this morning and the Wal-Mart hooligans might be at least a little bit different.

[CU Tiger]

Meanwhile, in the real world...

I love the anachronism in the use of 'thee' - kind of sums it up.

I think I live pretty heavily in the real world....and I apologize for the double "e" on thee, its one of the few negatives of living with a left ring finger that was surgically re-attached, sometimes it doesnt lift as quick as I might like.

CU Tiger -- if you think that mob was going to pay attention to anybody with a megaphone you're living in a dream world.

They bitched because the store closed after they killed the guy for God's sake, you think some assistant manager or rent-a-cop was going to do anything?

edit to add: What W-M does need to take a long look at though are the locations they're choosing to open stores in as well as what level of control over their patronage they exert 365 days a year. At least one location in particular comes to my mind in Georgia where it's nothing short of a miracle that the same thing hasn't happened already (parking lot shootings are already pretty commonplace at that one).


You are over looking one basic human character trait.
The carrot.
They could get pissed or shove said bullhorn where they wanted, but if it was made clear the store wouldn't open until everyone complied, the mob would have actually corralled the strays so they could get what they want.
I spent the better part of a decade doing professional bouncing and security part time for extra cash. When you go through the psychology, you can actually use a mob to control itself. It is a taught technique that is often employed by law enforcement as well. The group wants something, make the entire group understand that the controllers (out of sight, inside the store or outside the hostage zone in a police setting) will not release it until certain conditions are met. Initially there will be resistance, but soon some and hopefull a majority will decide that the request is reasonably simple enough to warrant the reward, at which point they begin to control the others in a way that one person would be unable to (And while wal mart retiree probably isnt very threatening, 25 soccer moms threatening to bitch slap the 2 that are delaying them gettin' their TVs might just work)

Once a situation decays to a certain point, it no longer works and chaos insues, but if action had been taken early enough this would have neever beeen a problem. I think back to standing in a few lines at BB for PS3s on release day, in one case there were over 300 people hoping for 28 units yet no one was injured, and the mighty security force?

2 pimpled geek squad workers.....

But it was well planned and orderly. They walked out an hour early and started taking names and contact info.
They then announced that only the first 28 would be getting PS3s and the rest would go onto a rain check list and be contacted as more came in. People were down sure but no one got worked into a frenzy. Had they let it build until thee last minute the decision may have beeen very different.

[Anthony]

Gee HA, I can't help but wonder if the demographics of the shoppers you found at Best Buy this morning and the Wal-Mart hooligans might be at least a little bit different.

you would be correct in that assumption. let's put it this way - i wouldn't have gone to the Green Acres Mall Wal-Mart if they were selling laptops for $100. the mall i went to was so safe and unthreatening there was two high school-age girls in front of me on the line by themselves. the "rowdiest" it got this morning was me overhearing some college geeks a few spots behind me making nerd jokes amongst themselves about the people who were walking out of the store with cheap no-name brand hdtvs.

[Mota]

i was talking about this story with my wife at dinner and i got a little heated trying to comprehend the depraved animalistic mindset people need to be in in order to trample other humans. think about it - we're not talking about the running of the bulls in pamplona here. we're talking about humans. you need to make a conscious decision to actually trample someone. in order to trample someone you have to physically place your foot/feet on the body of a human laying on the ground. seriously - if you were jogging and you didn't see someone was laying on the ground in front of you odds are you'd trip over them and fall. but if you did see them you'd at least have two options - hurdle over them or step on them.

If you're in a stampede, your choice is to either

1. step on the person on the ground and continue moving, or
2. fall over, and have the stampede continue over the first person AND you

You don't really have a choice when it comes to this point. There's probably 100 people pushing you in the back and stopping is not an option.

[mattlanta]

Wow, this is very tragic indeed. If they cought the stampede on video, the police or whoever's in charge must of seen the people who were actually causing most of the damage right? Because I'm sure they will be looking for someone... anyone... to blame.

[EagleFan]

If you're in a stampede, your choice is to either

1. step on the person on the ground and continue moving, or
2. fall over, and have the stampede continue over the first person AND you

You don't really have a choice when it comes to this point. There's probably 100 people pushing you in the back and stopping is not an option.

Exactly It's pure mob mentaity and self preservation at that point. If there is no initial order at the door it takes very little to start the inward movement of the group. Once people begin to feel crowded their reaction it to attempt to get clear of this and the only direction for hem is moving forward,as slightly as that may be. This continues and a tsunami of humanity begins. Those at the front are only moving forward because of the force behind them and their only option is to ride that flow or be shoved to the ground and end up as a casualty.

It is something that needs to be addressed by the stores that have these mass hysteria inducing events. Many have already learned to control the crowds but unfortunately not all as this sad and unfortunate event proves.

[Atocep]

You are over looking one basic human character trait.
The carrot.
They could get pissed or shove said bullhorn where they wanted, but if it was made clear the store wouldn't open until everyone complied, the mob would have actually corralled the strays so they could get what they want.
I spent the better part of a decade doing professional bouncing and security part time for extra cash. When you go through the psychology, you can actually use a mob to control itself.


We're talking about two thousand people here. Some of which bent a door frame to get into the store. Some of which trampled a man to death. Some of which refused to leave the store even after being told they may have played a role in someone's death. If it became obvious to some that the carrot was out of reach because of something out of their control (other people being jackasses) then you'd probably end up with a riot on your hands and you'd have a group of wal mart employees and rent-a-cops trying to control it.

By handing out vouchers in the manner you describe you'd also risk causing fights in the parking lot over those vouchers and any number of other problems.

What you describe could probably work at your average wal mart or best buy or other large store on black friday, but this wasn't the average store. This was an example of one of the extremes and simply standing in front of crowd of 2 thousand and telling them they aren't going to get what they've been waiting in line for 6+ hours for unless they listen to you because you're the one with a bullhorn is a recipe for disaster.

The problem here has less to do with how Wal Mart handled the situation at that store or any other store on this particular day and has more to do with how retailers are desperate for money and hype this one day above all others on the calandar. The fix to this is is actually much simpler than having some kid try to calm a crowd with a bullhorn. They need to turn Black Friday into something that lasts Friday through Sunday, but its not going to happen because the stores thrive on the amount of attention this one day gets.

[Cringer]

I took a quick look at wikipedia just to point out how low our society has gone down since the good 'ole days some people seem to remember....


June 16 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_16), 1883 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1883): Over 180 out of 1,100 children died in the Victoria Hall disaster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Hall_disaster) in Sunderland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunderland), England (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England) when they stampeded down the stairs to collect gifts from the entertainers after the end of a variety show (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variety_show).and...

Nicholas II was crowned Tsar of Russia on May 13 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_13), 1896 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1896). Four days later, a banquet was going to be held for the people at Khodynka Field. In the area of one town square (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_square), theaters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theater_%28structure%29), 150 buffets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffet) for distribution of gifts, and 20 pubs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pub) were built for the celebrations. Nearby the celebration square was a field that had a ravine and many gullies. On the evening of May 17, people who had heard rumours of rich coronation gifts from the tsar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar) (the gifts which everybody was to receive were actually a bread roll (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_roll), a piece of sausage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sausage), gingerbread (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gingerbread), and a mug (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mug)) began to gather in anticipation.
At about 5 o'clock in the morning of the coronation day, several thousand people (some say as many as 500,000) were already gathered on the field. Suddenly a rumour spread among the people that there was not enough beer or presents for everybody. A police force of 1,800 men failed to maintain civil order, and in a catastrophic crush and resulting panic to flee the scene, 1,389 people were trampled to death, and roughly 1,300 were otherwise injured. However these numbers have been greatly exagerated over time and so exact numbers are unknkown.


Yup, these kinds of things never happened in the past it seems. Dumb, greedy (white trash or just poor I guess) modern day Americans invented it.

[Lathum]

you can't seriously have gone back 120 years to try and make a point, thats beyond assanine.

[st.cronin]

Obviously WalMart needs to raise their prices.

[Big Fo]

you can't seriously have gone back 120 years to try and make a point, thats beyond assanine.

But the point he was making is that human stupidity is nothing new...

[EagleFan]

2007
12 dead in stampede in African Cup soccer qualifying match
1000+ walrusses killed in walrus stampede iBerring straights (I guess it's not a human only event)
31 dead in stampede in Beijing store

2006
345 dead in stampede in pilgrimage to Mecca
74 dead in stampede in Manilla to get into a stadium to see a game show giving away cash

2004
244 dead in stampede in pilgrimage to Mecca

2001
7 dead in stampede in train station to catch a train in Johannesburg



These are just snippets of stampedes which are by no means a "reflection on society". Stampedes have existed throughout history wherever there is a large enough population of people and for one reason or another. Some are out of pure pannick like the one in India where the Temple began caving in or during WW2 trying to get into a bomb shelter. Others have been from anything from a television show, rock concert, shopping store, sportig event, etc...

They are horrible things but hey do happen, and have happened for a long time. It is no reflection on society at all, so some people need to get off their high horse a bit.

[sterlingice]

so i'm on line at best buy

(ignore crazy person rant below)

Not to pick on HA, since I saw this all over the media yesterday, but this one just drives me nuts. Unless you're at bestbuy.com, you're not "on line", you're "in line". People use that phrase all the time here while I rarely heard it before which leads me to think it's an east coast thing.

SI

[Shkspr]

(ignore crazy person rant below)

Not to pick on HA, since I saw this all over the media yesterday, but this one just drives me nuts. Unless you're at bestbuy.com, you're not "on line", you're "in line". People use that phrase all the time here while I rarely heard it before which leads me to think it's an east coast thing.

SI

Tune in next week when sterlingice heads 90 miles north to explain to the locals they don't live near "Warshington, DC".

[kcchief19]

No. it is not. Study a little Psychology and get back to me.
So let's talk about psychology. In crowd psychology there are leaders, followers, innocent by-standers and opponents. Everyone in a crowd plays a role.

That doesn't mean crowds are always "evil." At a football game, the crowd leaders may just lead the wave or a cheer. There were thousands of places across the country yesterday just like this story with a lot of people and no crowd control. So what made this one location different than all the others?

Clearly the only variables are the people involved. I will guarantee you that the people who caused and started this weren't "good" people -- in everyday life, they are people who don't care about anyone than themselves. People who are decent don't get in a crowd and all of a sudden trample people. The leaders in this crowd were world-class douchebags, and so were the people who followed them. I'll wager none of them were selfless, passive people who just got caught up "in the moment."

No doubt most of the crowd didn't know what happened. They were simply by-standers. I haven't read any reports about people in the crowd trying to help but I'll bet some did.

There is no defending the crowd. Defending the crowd is to argue that anytime there is a large group of people without security to line everyone up that it's not the crowds fault if people get killed. Should I simply expect to participated in trampling today at the MU-KU game because there will be a big, emotional crowd and not nearly enough security to control it if the shit hits the fan?

[Noop]

(ignore crazy person rant below)

Not to pick on HA, since I saw this all over the media yesterday, but this one just drives me nuts. Unless you're at bestbuy.com, you're not "on line", you're "in line". People use that phrase all the time here while I rarely heard it before which leads me to think it's an east coast thing.

SI

Professor Wayne? Is that you correcting people on the internet?

You sound like my professor is stickler for proper grammar usage. LOL

[Mustang]

They need to turn Black Friday into something that lasts Friday through Sunday, but its not going to happen because the stores thrive on the amount of attention this one day gets.

Don't matter. You could stretch the sale from Thanksgiving to Christmas, but if you have a limited supply at reduced rates, the crowd will form at the time the sale will start. You could probably stage the sales through the day, but then you'll have crowds around whereever the item is waiting for the time.

As long as there is a limited supply an item and a base that wants that item, things like this are going to happen regardless of it is Black Friday or Wal-mart.

[lordscarlet]

(ignore crazy person rant below)

Not to pick on HA, since I saw this all over the media yesterday, but this one just drives me nuts. Unless you're at bestbuy.com, you're not "on line", you're "in line". People use that phrase all the time here while I rarely heard it before which leads me to think it's an east coast thing.

SI

I think it's actually a British/European thing? Or maybe a farther south thing? It is amazing all of these "east coast" or "Virginia" or "Southern" things that you mention that I never heard growing up in Virginia. :)

My mom does say "warsh", though. :)

[Lathum]

All you people throwing up tramplings that happened in other countries ( or other centuries for fucks sake) are missing the point.

In America in 2008 we should be able to treat each other with more respect.

We are not a bunch of uneducated soviet peasants from 1896.

We are no a bunch of possible drunk, rowdy soccer fans whose only joy in their third world lives is their soccer team winning

We are not a group of children in 1883 England trampling people to get possibly the only "gift" they will ever receive in their young lives.

We are not a bunch of Phillapinos rushing into a stadium to try and win cash that could possibly be used to put food on our tables.

We are not a huge gathering of religious fanatics whose lives revolve around making their journey.





In our society a man should be able to open the doors to a store and not be trampled. These people in line were not hungry, poor, needy, drunk or uneducated ( relativly speaking).

They were selfish and inconsiderate. Their only purpose was to save some money so when their January credit card bill rolls in it hurts a little less. They wanted to get the "hot" item first, and killing a man in the process turned into an inconvience for some of them.

Things like this should not happen in our society because of a sale at a Wal-Mart.

That is a sad statement on our society.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Should I simply expect to participated in trampling today at the MU-KU game because there will be a big, emotional crowd and not nearly enough security to control it if the shit hits the fan?

Only if the game is attended by a crowd of similar composition.

[Ryan S]

I think it's actually a British/European thing?

It's not a British thing. We would say "in line".

[Lathum]

It's a NE thing, I say on line also

[sterlingice]

We are not a bunch of uneducated soviet peasants from 1896.

Damn, I'm becoming grammar nazi. :(

But, yeah, soviet anything prior to the 20th century? Is that possible?

SI

[sabotai]

I live on the east coast (NJ represent!) and say "in line". I don't think I've ever heard anyone say "on line" when they mean "in line".

[lynchjm24]

I live on the east coast (NJ represent!) and say "in line". I don't think I've ever heard anyone say "on line" when they mean "in line".

It seems new. I've never heard it around here until the last couple of years. Annoys me as much as 'on queue' does.

[MJ4H]

I can remember hearing "on line" instead of "in line" in the early 90s. It creeps me out, too. Along with "verse" instead of "versus." wtf?

[Karlifornia]

I worked at Best Buy for one Black Friday, and a Toys 'R' Us for another black friday...I never seen a more pathetic group of people than the black friday shoppers.

Most of them were the kind of people at a grocery store who complain that something rang up at 4 for a dollar when they thought it was 5 for a dollar.

Of course, I could have just been irritated because I had to deal with these mouth-breathers at 5 AM.

[RainMaker]

Both sides are to blame. Wal-Mart should have better security. If they can't handle the mob scene, they should call the cops. This isn't a new problem, this happens every year at their stores. It was just a matter of time. They also could have handled out vouchers. You can also make the case that they build up the hysteria too. Fact is, you are responsible for the safety of your employees.

But this kind of behaivor is sick. And while I understand the psychology behind mobs, I do think certain people avoid it. I can tell you for certain that there is no situation that would ever have me doing that shit. This is a sick story and shows how pathetic and superficial our society is. Kill a guy so you can save $30 on a Blu-Ray.

[SportsDino]

Crowd Control for the Crazy:

Find the biggest guy heading toward you and slam into him. He'll bump the people behind him. If you get it early enough (i.e. before the back of the crowd has momentum) you can probably stop most Americans who are not brain-dead.

Not sure if it really works, but the only time I ever went to Black Friday shopping it stopped a door rush. A little old lady who had been waiting at the front got knocked sideways by some crazed soccer mom and sort of tipped sideways sliding to the ground. I was a few spaces behind, walking calmly because I thought it was stupid to get all frantic over cheap supermarket junk.

Thought for half a second, realized that as more people got to the open space beyond the chokepoint the faster the crowd would gain average speed... so I almost body checked some big dude there with his wife (the lady was trying to drag him into a run). He set his feet and the whole crowd pretty much went bump.

Before he killed me I asked him if he could help me with old lady, he says yes, we go help her on her feet and over to the side... whole traffic interruption lasted about a minute max and no one was injured. If anything, people got in the store faster because they didn't have to watch out for someone in the middle of the way.

I of course got really dirty looks and complaints, especially from ladies, but I gave them the highly effective 'Look of Death' and they ran off to buy all of the whatsits I was there to buy. I ended up buying a real brand for more and making up a story that I got a substitute for the same price deal (the gizmo I bought lasted several years without issue I might mention, whereas every off brand thing my mother lugged home from Black Friday since the dawn of time has broken in 6-18 months).

Probably not as crazy a situation though as that mall scene, but even though I make it a habit to avoid really stupid setups like that, I'd like to think if I was stuck in one I would try to do something. At the very least I would change my priorities from 'shop shop shop' to 'survival/help others'. The problem at this walmart is that many people seem to leave that 'shop like an idiot' switch turned on and make the problem even worst.

[Oilers9911]

So you are saying a business could have taken common sense approaches to prevent this sort of thing and didn't and the fact we are calling them on it is a sign of societal downward spiral?! I think its a sign that we as a society are starting to mature. In the past, we may have let Walmart off the hook.

You must be kidding. Let's see, guy gets trampled to death while he is at work. Is he a police officer during a riot? Is there a sudden panic because of a fire, or a bomb threat, or a guy with a gun? No. He was trampled to death because the scumbags that trampled him wanted to save $10 on a video game, or $5 on a DVD, or $100 on a TV.

Could Wal-Mart have done a better job at preparing for the crowd? Sure. But to blame the store because a bunch of assholes had to have what they wanted right that second is completely assinine.

[Sgran]

Back in 1990 I went to see Rush in Alpine Valley, Wisconsin. We parked the car and started walking to the gates, which were about to open. It was general admission lawn seating for most of the crowd, so people were waiting to get in. They opened the gates and the crowd starting pushing forward. The problem was that you had to wind around a fence, so the only thing in front of most people was a sturdy fence. Soon I was lifted off my feet by the pressing crowd (which was completely white, by the way) and the air was being pushed out of my lungs. People in the back didn't know what was happening; they just wanted a good seat on the lawn. I was scared for my life and powerless to do anything. Eventually the organizers got around the back of the crowd and pulled people back.
Now, whether or not you blame the people in the back for pushing forward (i personally wanted to strangle someone), the responsibility for controlling the crowd has to rest with the organizers. They created the situation and they alone had the authority to keep people from endangering others.
When Walmart puts an ad in the paper to sell a laptop for 200 bucks, they know full well that most people will arrive too late to get one of the few units available. Walmart just wants to get active shoppers in their store and hopes they'll get away with the old bait and switch. They have manufactured hysteria and must take responsiblity for it by having the proper security measures in place. Am I saying shoppers are free from responsibility for their own actions? Of course not. But if amusement parks can keep hundreds of people in line for a popular ride, then Walmart should be able to do the same.

[lordscarlet]

Back in 1990 I went to see Rush in Alpine Valley, Wisconsin. We parked the car and started walking to the gates, which were about to open. It was general admission lawn seating for most of the crowd, so people were waiting to get in. They opened the gates and the crowd starting pushing forward. The problem was that you had to wind around a fence, so the only thing in front of most people was a sturdy fence. Soon I was lifted off my feet by the pressing crowd (which was completely white, by the way) and the air was being pushed out of my lungs. People in the back didn't know what was happening; they just wanted a good seat on the lawn. I was scared for my life and powerless to do anything. Eventually the organizers got around the back of the crowd and pulled people back.
Now, whether or not you blame the people in the back for pushing forward (i personally wanted to strangle someone), the responsibility for controlling the crowd has to rest with the organizers. They created the situation and they alone had the authority to keep people from endangering others.
When Walmart puts an ad in the paper to sell a laptop for 200 bucks, they know full well that most people will arrive too late to get one of the few units available. Walmart just wants to get active shoppers in their store and hopes they'll get away with the old bait and switch. They have manufactured hysteria and must take responsiblity for it by having the proper security measures in place. Am I saying shoppers are free from responsibility for their own actions? Of course not. But if amusement parks can keep hundreds of people in line for a popular ride, then Walmart should be able to do the same.

Impossible. This only happens with those ignorant black folk.




:eyeroll:

[SportsDino]

For the record I only saw this with a crowd of mostly white people, and I'm doubtful where they were on the white trash spectrum if you are going to use wealth as a metric. Only thing I can say is consistent is an irrational impulse to push over people in order to save a few bucks, this only comes from the irrational idea that you can somehow outrun other people to the location it is being sold at and get the item... which to begin with is fairly doubtful if your at the back of the crowd (line or random door slam).

For the record the lady who actually pushed an old woman to get that much more of a headstart seemed to be wearing a coat/bag that seemed high end (although I don't much about fashion).

I think education and manners plays a role, and you can lack one or the other in all sort of demographics.

[SFL Cat]

Honestly, I can't imagine being callous enough to step on or over someone on the ground without making a major effort to stop and offer some assistance.

[Autumn]

Back in 1990 I went to see Rush in Alpine Valley, Wisconsin. Soon I was lifted off my feet by the pressing crowd (which was completely white, by the way)

This is the definition of redundancy.

[Autumn]

dola

Honestly, I can't imagine being callous enough to step on or over someone on the ground without making a major effort to stop and offer some assistance.

While I don't know the exact situation at this Wal-Mart, I think people are confused to imagine that some people were intentionally stepping on the man. The problem with a crowd like this, as the Rush fan above explains, is that the small actions of the people at the back trying to step forward accumulates into possibly lethal pressure at the front of the crowd who has nowhere to step. There was not necessarily any people in that crowd intentionally stepping on the man (who we were also told had a heart attack, and was not necessarily trampled, but even so). The people at the front get injured because they cannot resist the cumulative pressure of all the people at the back. The people at the back have no idea what they're doing because they are only mildly pressing into the people in front of them.

In this sense I agree that it's Wal-mart's fault, in the sense that crowd control is not something each person in the crowd can do themselves. Even a well-intentioned crowd can kill a person if the physical structure is wrong.

[Sgran]

dola



While I don't know the exact situation at this Wal-Mart, I think people are confused to imagine that some people were intentionally stepping on the man. The problem with a crowd like this, as the Rush fan above explains, is that the small actions of the people at the back trying to step forward accumulates into possibly lethal pressure at the front of the crowd who has nowhere to step. There was not necessarily any people in that crowd intentionally stepping on the man (who we were also told had a heart attack, and was not necessarily trampled, but even so). The people at the front get injured because they cannot resist the cumulative pressure of all the people at the back. The people at the back have no idea what they're doing because they are only mildly pressing into the people in front of them.

In this sense I agree that it's Wal-mart's fault, in the sense that crowd control is not something each person in the crowd can do themselves. Even a well-intentioned crowd can kill a person if the physical structure is wrong.

very well put.

[Mustang]

Looks like the first lawsuit is out.

NEW YORK (CNN) -- Two customers are suing Wal-Mart for negligence after being injured in a mad rush for post-Thanksgiving bargains that left one store employee dead, the men's attorney said Tuesday.
A temporary worker at this Wal-Mart was crushed to death when shoppers rushed into the store last week.

A temporary worker at this Wal-Mart was crushed to death when shoppers rushed into the store last week.

Temporary Wal-Mart worker Jdimytai Damour, 34, was crushed to death as he and other employees attempted to unlock the doors of a store on Long Island at 5 a.m. Friday.

Attorney Kenneth Mollins said Fritz Mesadieu and Jonathan Mesadieu were "literally carried from their position outside the store" and are now "suffering from pain in their neck and their back from being caught in that surge of people" that rushed into the Wal-Mart.

New York Newsday reported that the Mesadieus are father and son, ages 51 and 19.

The lawsuit alleges that the Mesadieus' injuries were a result of "carelessness, recklessness, negligence."

In a claim against the Nassau County police department, the men also contend that they "sustained monetary losses as a result of health care and legal expenses ... in the sum of $2 million."

"This is a tragic situation that could have and should have been avoided with the exercise of reasonable care. There are very simple measures that could have been put in place to avoid this, such as barriers along the line to spread people out, extra security and a better police presence," Mollins said.

He said his clients and others who were at the scene contend that the police "were there ... saw what was happening, and they left."

Calls seeking comment from Wal-Mart Stores Inc. were not immediately returned.

Lt. Kevin Smith of the Nassau County Police Department said, "it's our policy that we don't comment on open litigations" and would not respond directly to Mollins and his clients' claim that officers left the scene.

He said it is "incumbent upon the store to provide security" but noted that there was no security force present when officers responded to an initial phone call after 3 a.m. Friday for an unknown disturbance at the site.

Smith said the officers noticed a lack of order with the crowd and began to organize them into a line, remaining on site for about 30 minutes until the crowd had become orderly.

Throughout the morning, officers went back to check on the crowd and continued to notice no disturbance, Smith said.

He said that there were no additional calls for assistance until about 5 a.m., when people began rushing the doors of the store and trampled Damour.
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An autopsy showed that Damour died of asphyxiation after being trampled, Nassau County officials have said.

Video showed that as many as a dozen people were knocked to the floor in the stampede of people trying to get into the store. The employee was "stepped on by hundreds of people" as other workers attempted to fight their way through the crowd, said Nassau County Police Detective Lt. Michael Fleming.




Ok, I knew lawsuits were going to come out of this and I'm on the fence as for who should take the blame, but monetary loses from legal and medical to the tune of $2M in 5 days time? I think I could have all 4 of my limbs ripped from my body and reattached and I'm not sure I'd have $2M in medical expenses after 5 days.

[ISiddiqui]

You must be kidding. Let's see, guy gets trampled to death while he is at work. Is he a police officer during a riot? Is there a sudden panic because of a fire, or a bomb threat, or a guy with a gun? No. He was trampled to death because the scumbags that trampled him wanted to save $10 on a video game, or $5 on a DVD, or $100 on a TV.

Could Wal-Mart have done a better job at preparing for the crowd? Sure. But to blame the store because a bunch of assholes had to have what they wanted right that second is completely assinine.

Wal-Mart is definitely responsible for hyping the crap out of Black Friday, driving the hysteria to mass levels and then having a "run for your item, free for all".

You'll note places like Best Buy didn't have problems because they had lines and an orderly procession. So, yes, I do blame Wal-Mart.

It's like not blaming a sports team for having a "run for whatever seat you can get" playoff game.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I'm not a fan of frivilous lawsuits, but this one is well-warranted if for no other reason than to get Wal-Mart to act to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen again. It's well-know that Wal-Mart has allowed this stampede mentality to occur for several years without finding a good way to organize the crowd and provide adequate security. They need to head over to Best Buy headquarters and take a crash course on how to handle these events. It's a shame that it took this kind of thing to bring their problems to light.

[JonInMiddleGA]

You'll note places like Best Buy didn't have problems because they had lines and an orderly procession.

If you believe that's the only reason things are different between the two, then you're either naive as hell or a damned fool.

[lungs]

If you believe that's the only reason things are different between the two, then you're either naive as hell or a damned fool.

What... were most of the shoppers black or something? Is that what you are too chickenshit to say?

[Lathum]

What... were most of the shoppers black or something? Is that what you are too chickenshit to say?

I'm not sure what he meant but I took it as Wal Mart shoppers are lower income.

[JonInMiddleGA]

What... were most of the shoppers black or something? Is that what you are too chickenshit to say?

Actually I was thinking more along income/disposable income differences between Black Friday at Wal-Mart and Best Buy than about race. Average cost of an item sold is significantly different between the two stores, as would very likely be the case for average transaction as well.

But as for the racial aspect, I don't have the slightest hesitation about it. The demographics of the crowd of hooligans involved in the NY death were pretty clear to anyone who has seen the pictures of the scene. You could hypothetical all day but the bottom line is that a temp worker wasn't trampled to death by snaggletoothed hillbillies trying to get a bargain on the latest Larry the Cable Guy DVD.

[larrymcg421]

You must be kidding. Let's see, guy gets trampled to death while he is at work. Is he a police officer during a riot? Is there a sudden panic because of a fire, or a bomb threat, or a guy with a gun? No. He was trampled to death because the scumbags that trampled him wanted to save $10 on a video game, or $5 on a DVD, or $100 on a TV.

Could Wal-Mart have done a better job at preparing for the crowd? Sure. But to blame the store because a bunch of assholes had to have what they wanted right that second is completely assinine.

Why does it have to be either/or? If this guy is assigned to open the door and Walmart has not adequately provided for crowd control, then they are at fault. That doesn't mean the people who stomped through aren't also to blame.

[lungs]

Actually I was thinking more along income/disposable income differences between Black Friday at Wal-Mart and Best Buy than about race. Average cost of an item sold is significantly different between the two stores, as would very likely be the case for average transaction as well.

But as for the racial aspect, I don't have the slightest hesitation about it. The demographics of the crowd of hooligans involved in the NY death were pretty clear to anyone who has seen the pictures of the scene. You could hypothetical all day but the bottom line is that a temp worker wasn't trampled to death by snaggletoothed hillbillies trying to get a bargain on the latest Larry the Cable Guy DVD.

I sort of wondered after I posted if you'd play the economic angle.

I don't know the economic demographics of the area, but when I saw pictures I just saw a lot of black people.

I guess I've seen you dropped many veiled suggestions as to the cause and wondered why the hell you just don't come out and say it?

[JonInMiddleGA]

If this guy is assigned to open the door and Walmart has not adequately provided for crowd control, then they are at fault.

At least a couple of the articles in the first 24-36 hours after the incident made reference (I'm paraphrasing) to the victim simply approaching the area looking to help with a situation that was already out of control, that he was not assigned to any sort of door opening duty or anything.

[Autumn]

If you believe that's the only reason things are different between the two, then you're either naive as hell or a damned fool.

So, it seems likely to you that the biggest difference between Best Buy which apparently had a plan and personnel for orderly crowd control, and Wal-Mart, which did not, is that the items are cheaper at Wal-Mart? So, if there had been no crowd control at Best Buy, those suburban middle class people jonesing for their great deal on a TV wouldn't push and shove their way in because people with higher incomes don't act that way?

[JonInMiddleGA]

So, if there had been no crowd control at Best Buy, those suburban middle class people jonesing for their great deal on a TV wouldn't push and shove their way in because people with higher incomes don't act that way?

Hell of a lot less likely. Impossible? No.

Or do you have evidence of an equal rate of occurrence of violent behavior at George Strait concerts vs rap concerts?

edit to add: Feel free to try to blame the store all you want, but the bottom line is that the responsibility for the lack of civilized behavior falls on those who participated, the same people who bitched about their shopping experience being disrupted because they killed someone. When I see the same thing happening at Linens N' Things then I'll reconsider whether there might be less of a demographic influence on the behavior, but until then, all I see are fools desperately trying to avoid the cold hard truth.

[lungs]

Hell of a lot less likely. Impossible? No.

Or do you have evidence of an equal rate of occurrence of violent behavior at George Strait concerts vs rap concerts?

Those George Strait concerts get pretty rowdy.

Wouldn't a more apt comparison to rap be rock/metal? I'm sure the numbers would still prove your point. When's the last time a rapper got shot and killed on stage like Dimebag Darrell?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Wouldn't a more apt comparison to rap be rock/metal? I'm sure the numbers would still prove your point. When's the last time a rapper got shot and killed on stage like Dimebag Darrell?

They have to survive the parking lot, da club, and da hood in order to even be on stage for it to happen. Why shoot the guy on stage when you can just gun him down on the street? Or did I somehow miss it when Lemmy shivved James Hetfield? Or the Great Nashville Gang War where Brooks & Dunn did that drive-by outside Kenny Chesney's crib?

As for the comparison, no I'd say BestBuy/Strait vs Wal-Mart/Fitty is pretty apt. Actually Bolton/KennyG might be more on target but I was trying to stick a little closer to the redneck stereotyping that often goes with Wal-Mart.

[lungs]

As for the comparison, no I'd say BestBuy/Strait vs Wal-Mart/Fitty is pretty apt. Actually Bolton/KennyG might be more on target but I was trying to stick a little closer to the redneck stereotyping that often goes with Wal-Mart.

Ahhhh... I misunderstood why you used the two in a comparison.

While not violent, I've seen/heard plenty of despicable shit at country music festivals like a brother whoring out his sister and things like that.

[SportsDino]

Not to debate incident rates, but white crowds of at least seemingly middle class income have engaged in the same behavior. Stupidity is not confined to any demographic, and I'm pretty sure if you go with a Best Buy voucher program on all the things people are lining up for you remove the incentive for a mad stupid rush, even in the demographics you think don't know any better.

[Autumn]

Hell of a lot less likely. Impossible? No.

Or do you have evidence of an equal rate of occurrence of violent behavior at George Strait concerts vs rap concerts?

edit to add: Feel free to try to blame the store all you want, but the bottom line is that the responsibility for the lack of civilized behavior falls on those who participated, the same people who bitched about their shopping experience being disrupted because they killed someone. When I see the same thing happening at Linens N' Things then I'll reconsider whether there might be less of a demographic influence on the behavior, but until then, all I see are fools desperately trying to avoid the cold hard truth.

I'm not disagreeing that the people involved are partly to blame. I just find your broad generalizations a little silly. Do all black people like rap music and participate in drive-bys? I didn't realize that. Foolish of me I guess.

What happened was not some riot that only happens to "inner city folk". It was a large crowd where someone got knocked odwn and crushed. As has been noted, this happens often whenever a large number of people line up and try to get into a small entrance. It really has nothing to do with violent tendencies, it has to do with physics and disorder.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Not to debate incident rates, but white crowds of at least seemingly middle class income have engaged in the same behavior. Stupidity is not confined to any demographic, and I'm pretty sure if you go with a Best Buy voucher program on all the things people are lining up for you remove the incentive for a mad stupid rush, even in the demographics you think don't know any better.

Best Buy doesn't just hand out vouchers. They also have employees stationed along the line outside to keep people from cutting in line or trying to rush the doors. It doesn't take much to plan, but it works exceedingly well.