Heisman [Archive] - Front Office Football Central

kcchief19

12-10-2008, 05:27 PM

JonInMiddleGA

12-10-2008, 05:32 PM

he really seems to be on a whole lower level than Bradford and McCoy this year.

Until you consider that he faced 8 of the top 30 defenses in the country while putting up those numbers.

Karlifornia

12-10-2008, 05:37 PM

I think this will be a very close vote.

EDIT: I can't decide yet.

QuikSand

12-10-2008, 09:06 PM

At least some people think this is a very easy call:

2008 HEISMAN TROPHY WINNER (1-Pay) $100 WIN
Series Name Sell Buy
SAM BRADFORD (OKLAHOMA) 75 80 -400
TIM TEBOW (FLORIDA) 14 19 +426
COLT MCCOY (TEXAS) 5 10 +900

Logan

12-10-2008, 09:10 PM

I think Bradford will win, I think Bradford deserves to win, but I'd like McCoy to win.

vex

12-10-2008, 09:25 PM

I think McCoy will win but of course REALLY want Bradford to win.

sterlingice

12-10-2008, 09:27 PM

I think Bradford will win but I'd vote McCoy ahead of him. I discount Bradford's numbers based on his coach's decision to run up scores. If McCoy stayed in games heaving the ball downfield up by 40, his numbers would be better too.

If Tebow weren't the defending winner, would he really be in this discussion? His rushing numbers are close to McCoy's but McCoy threw for a thousand more yards. is a QB with 2,500 passing yards and 500 yards rushing really a Heisman candidate? I'll grant that his TD-Int ratio is great but he really seems to be on a whole lower level than Bradford and McCoy this year.

This pretty much matches my feelings, tho I don't feel as strongly about Bradford running up the score. I just don't think you'll see a huge percentage of his scoring and yards in the fourth quarter- I'd guess that less than 20% is there but I could be wrong.

Again, Tebow wouldn't really be in this discussion but I've heard so many pundits on the radio or in print switch their vote to Tebow after a good but not exactly Herculean effort last week. It's not like we were watching Vick or Young in the championship games (as described in other threads).

Personally, I just can't get past that completion percentage for McCoy and I'd give it to him on that and his team's performance alone.

SI

Crim

12-10-2008, 10:11 PM

I want Tebow, but would be totally cool with McCoy.

and yet, I'll understand if Bradford gets it.

Strong year for Heisman candidates.

Vegas Vic

12-10-2008, 10:22 PM

This pretty much matches my feelings, tho I don't feel as strongly about Bradford running up the score. I just don't think you'll see a huge percentage of his scoring and yards in the fourth quarter- I'd guess that less than 20% is there but I could be wrong.

The fact is that Bradford has sat out most of the 4th quarter blowouts. Oklahoma has only tried "to run up the score" once this year, and that was in the Big XII championship game against Missouri.

Oklahoma averages 54.0 points per game, and 7.7 points per 4th quarter. If OU had scored 0 in every single 4th quarter this year, they would have 609 points, which would rank 2nd nationally, behind only Tulsa's 616.

OU's 1st quarter points are more than 19 teams have all season, including 3 SEC teams and 2 teams that beat SEC teams.

OU has 456 points in the first half. That would rank 13th nationally if OU was shut out in every single second half.

Cuckoo

12-10-2008, 10:23 PM

I discount Bradford's numbers based on his coach's decision to run up scores.

*sigh*

Say what you will about the Missouri game. I won't even necessarily disagree - was there and thought it strange that Bradford threw deep that one play.

But come on... Don't let facts get in the way of your argument. Bradford averages 3.8 minutes per 4th quarter this season, and he has only 2 TDs all season in the 4th quarter of the games that ended up blow-outs. He has sat the entire 4th quarter of 4 games. In fact, OU scored only something like 7 percent of their total points this season in the 4th quarter.

Cuckoo

12-10-2008, 10:24 PM

DOLA

Looks like Vic beat me to it...

kcchief19

12-11-2008, 03:06 AM

The fact is that Bradford has sat out most of the 4th quarter blowouts. Oklahoma has only tried "to run up the score" once this year, and that was in the Big XII championship game against Missouri.
It wasn't running up the score when Bradford threw a 26-yard TD pass in the fourth quarter against Texas Tech up 58-14? It wasn't running up the score when Oklahoma had the ball at 1st and 10 at the Oklahoma State 28 with :32 seconds left and instead of taking a knee they ran for a TD? If that's not running up the score, we have different definitions.
But come on... Don't let facts get in the way of your argument. Bradford averages 3.8 minutes per 4th quarter this season, and he has only 2 TDs all season in the 4th quarter of the games that ended up blow-outs. He has sat the entire 4th quarter of 4 games. In fact, OU scored only something like 7 percent of their total points this season in the 4th quarter.
OU's time of possession this season was almost perfectly down the middle -- actually their opponents had the ball 12 seconds more on average. So what does it prove that Bradford played essentially half the fourth quarter on average? They were up 40-some odd points in a few games. He could have been out at halftime against Chattanooga -- Missouri pulled their starters at halftime against Southeast Missouri.

Don't let the fourth quarter be some sort of magical line of demarcation. Did Bradford really need to throw a 66-yard TD pass at the end of the third quarter up 52-14 on Tech? How about throwing a TD pass up 56-21 on Nebraska on the next to last play of the third quarter?

I'm not saying I don't give him credit -- I'm saying I'd vote him No. 2 in the Heisman. Don't know how that is a slight. I'm saying I just give a discount to his numbers given how OU ran their offense.

Swaggs

12-11-2008, 07:12 AM

I voted for Bradford because I think he will win. I think he is deserving, but I think his numbers are inflated due to playing in the Big 12 (along with all of the other QBs' numbers in the conference), so it is hard to compare his stats to a player from another conference. I think Bradford, McCoy, and Harrell would all be very good quarterbacks and win a lot of games in the SEC, but I suspect that the overinflated passing TDs and yardage numbers would look a lot more like Tebow's if they played there (likewise, Tebow would probably have a lot more impressive numbers if he played in the wide-open B12).

Butter

12-11-2008, 07:47 AM

No way Tebow should be in this discussion. Yes, he is Florida's MVP. But no, he is not the best player in the country this year.

Senator

12-11-2008, 09:17 AM

They will give it to McCoy as a BCS consolation prize.

tucker342

12-11-2008, 10:19 AM

Bradford, but the homer in me has to give an honorable mention to Shonn Greene :)

Ryan S

12-11-2008, 02:35 PM

I have no idea how I managed to vote for Tim Tebow, my pick is Colt McCoy.

sterlingice

12-11-2008, 02:48 PM

Seems a lot like another Florida ballot I remember ;)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y268/sterlingice/random/floridaballot.jpg

SI

Dr. Sak

12-12-2008, 11:47 AM

Most moving Heisman Speech ever...

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-YdgWihXJvE&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-YdgWihXJvE&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

QuikSand

12-12-2008, 02:53 PM

McCoy is still available at $12 a share in certain prediction markets. The Scripps-Howard poll of Heisman voters says he is the winner in a close race. Weird.

No, I don't need a lecture from some asshat about poll weighting bias.

sooner333

12-12-2008, 03:38 PM

It wasn't running up the score when Bradford threw a 26-yard TD pass in the fourth quarter against Texas Tech up 58-14? It wasn't running up the score when Oklahoma had the ball at 1st and 10 at the Oklahoma State 28 with :32 seconds left and instead of taking a knee they ran for a TD? If that's not running up the score, we have different definitions.

First off, the run against OSU has no basis in this context because it wasn't Bradford's stats. Secondly, even if it was a throwing TD, OSU called timeout right before the play when OU would have let the time run out (32 seconds on a 40 second play-clock). I guess they could have kneeled and let OSU call another time out. OU was up by ten at the time.

Should we have a rule that when you're up by six score or more the only approriate play is a kneel-down until they catch back up? Or that the second stringers must come in? If they bring in the second team should they be forced to kneel or can they play like the first teamers?

I understand your argument is that we shouldn't use those stats to pump up Bradford or the team's ranking. That's fine, I don't think most people were even watching the end of the Tech game or Missouri game and took it into their consideration. Maybe the numbers for Bradford, but the fact remains that OU averaged barely over a TD in the fourth quarter, barely more than 4 pp4thQ in their first 11 games.

I think at some point Stoops realized you can't win. When you score 77 points through three quarters and let your second teamers in and kneel on first down, you still get trounced by people on running up the score. When you put in your backups and don't score much in the fourth quarter, you still get ridiculed. So what difference does it make if you do run up the score?

Vegas Vic

12-12-2008, 05:02 PM

First off, the run against OSU has no basis in this context because it wasn't Bradford's stats. Secondly, even if it was a throwing TD, OSU called timeout right before the play when OU would have let the time run out (32 seconds on a 40 second play-clock). I guess they could have kneeled and let OSU call another time out. OU was up by ten at the time.

OU wasn't running the "victory formation" with a direct snap because of Bradford's left thumb (he had already fumbled two snaps earlier in the game due to this). If OSU hadn't called timeout, the clock would have expired. Instead, they ran a play straight up the gut, out of the shotgun formation. It's not OU's fault that the play went for a touchdown.

Eaglesfan27

12-12-2008, 05:30 PM

OU wasn't running the "victory formation" with a direct snap because of Bradford's left thumb (he had already fumbled two snaps earlier in the game due to this). If OSU hadn't called timeout, the clock would have expired. Instead, they ran a play straight up the gut, out of the shotgun formation. It's not OU's fault that the play went for a touchdown.

I didn't call you on this before, but if his thumb is so bad, why don't they have the backup in there to run the "victory formation?"

CU Tiger

12-12-2008, 05:37 PM

I didn't call you on this before, but if his thumb is so bad, why don't they have the backup in there to run the "victory formation?"

Last regular season snap of a great career perhaps?

SFL Cat

12-12-2008, 05:40 PM

I like Tebow as a player, but Bradford has a much better arm.

Eaglesfan27

12-12-2008, 05:50 PM

Last regular season snap of a great career perhaps?

We aren't talking about the last game (where they were clearly running up the score.) We are talking about a week or two before that.

sooner333

12-12-2008, 06:09 PM

I didn't call you on this before, but if his thumb is so bad, why don't they have the backup in there to run the "victory formation?"

Because they would have called another time out. If the other team is playing (and in theory has a chance to win...two possessions, crazier things probably have happened), you need to play for the score and I don't think Gundy would have faulted them for it.

Again, they did run the score up on Missouri (again, the TD was a run, though), but I don't think they did against Oklahoma State.

sooner333

12-12-2008, 06:09 PM

We aren't talking about the last game (where they were clearly running up the score.) We are talking about a week or two before that.

It could have been the last game of the season...there was no guarantee OU was going to play in the Big 12 Championship game.

duckman

12-12-2008, 07:51 PM

YouTube - leinart interview after 2006 rosebowl (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jy9pKvaViI)

Scarecrow

12-12-2008, 08:56 PM

I just hope the votes are made public (I can't remember if they are).

Rumor has it that the voters in the southeast region are leaving off both Bradford and McCoy from their ballots in order to ensure that Tebow wins.

Dr. Sak

12-12-2008, 09:17 PM

GASP! You mean people in SEC Country cheating?!?! Say it aint so!

GrantDawg

12-12-2008, 10:39 PM

GASP! You mean people in SEC Country cheating?!?! Say it aint so!

Is that cheating? You must vote for someone?

Senator

12-12-2008, 10:48 PM

We should have a playoff system for the Heisman.

JonInMiddleGA

12-12-2008, 11:22 PM

Senator

12-13-2008, 12:07 AM

Big shock, Ching....

sooner333

12-13-2008, 12:15 AM

I don't have a problem if they really don't think Bradford or McCoy is the second or third best player. You can make a case for Harrell, Crabtree, or a lot of other guys. Just thinking outside the box (and they've been given a pretty narrow box of three guys) shouldn't be a problem. I would hope that voters wouldn't put guys who they actually think are second and third best on their ballot to rig the winner, but I'm sure it happens.

While I disagree with the way Mack Brown campaigned so heavily for the title, it's obvious that on his last ballot he was more than fair with his rankings of the teams. That should be a model for sportsmanship.

Edward64

12-13-2008, 05:58 PM

I voted for Colt but it would be nice to have Tebow win it twice.

terpkristin

12-13-2008, 07:58 PM

And Bradford it is. I was hoping for McCoy but figured it'd be Bradford.

/tk

B & B

12-13-2008, 08:03 PM

Couldnt even make money on this, he was -400 or so at the beginning of the week. Hardly could justify the payout.

Were not talking Detroit beating Indy or Cleveland beating Philly on MNF, but certainly any other 'upset' on Sunday will be less of a suprise than Bradford winning.

RedKingGold

12-13-2008, 08:10 PM

I just voted for Tebow. He had the most first-place votes, so he won.

Senator

12-13-2008, 09:21 PM

Once I saw Jason White and Eric Crouch standing there, all I could think of was; this is the last of Bradford.

sooner333

12-13-2008, 09:27 PM

Once I saw Jason White and Eric Crouch standing there, all I could think of was; this is the last of Bradford.

Yes, because a guy with two mechanical knees and an option quarterback are just like Sam Bradford. :confused:

Senator

12-13-2008, 09:32 PM

(Do not debate this topic with anyone named SOONER)

Capital

12-13-2008, 10:10 PM

You could make a case for all 3, but I chose Tebow. I don't want to be sucked in by the video game scoring Big 12 conference.

kcchief19

12-13-2008, 11:06 PM

You could make a case for all 3, but I chose Tebow. I don't want to be sucked in by the video game scoring Big 12 conference.
See, it's this kind of talk that's going to get Sooner and I back on the same team. :)

Since early October, I've been a stronger and stronger believer in the notion that the SEC defenses aren't all that, it's just that the offenses in the SEC are horrible outside Florida. And look what Florida did to the supposed tough SEC defenses.

I think the SEC and Big 12 defenses are on the same par but the Big 12 offenses are far superior. Now I'll have to root for OU to bear this out ... :banghead:

Vegas Vic

12-14-2008, 12:18 AM

Since early October, I've been a stronger and stronger believer in the notion that the SEC defenses aren't all that, it's just that the offenses in the SEC are horrible outside Florida. And look what Florida did to the supposed tough SEC defenses.

Neither fan base is going to yield much, but the truth is closer to the middle than most would concede.

The Big XII defenses probably aren't as good as they have been in years past, but their statistical rankings would be significantly better if they got to play the majority of their snaps against quarterbacks like Tyson Lee, Kodi Burns, John Parker Wilson, Mike Hartline, Mackenzi Adams, Chris Smelley, Casey Dick, Jarrett Lee, and Jonathan Crompton.

Logan

12-14-2008, 10:12 AM

With that dropoff from 3rd to 4th, looks like they were right in not inviting Harrell.

JonInMiddleGA

12-14-2008, 10:51 AM

With that dropoff from 3rd to 4th, looks like they were right in not inviting Harrell.

Pretty much what I figured all along frankly. As far as I know (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong), there's no significant history of them failing to invite someone who was reasonably relevant to the outcome.

Logan

12-14-2008, 10:52 AM

Agree Jon, which made Leach's public comments about his "outrage" and how this was a mockery even worse in my opinion.

Dr. Sak

12-14-2008, 11:03 AM

Is that cheating? You must vote for someone?

Maybe cheating isnt the right word but I could understand leaving one of those guys off, but to leave both shows you know nothing about football.

Crim

12-14-2008, 11:12 AM

Agree Jon, which made Leach's public comments about his "outrage" and how this was a mockery even worse in my opinion.

Reminded me of the Peter Warrick year. (This is all from memory, maybe Noop or someone can fact-check me.)

Warrick was Heisman frontrunner since early in the year. Truly electric with the ball in space.

Then he gets in trouble for taking free and discounted stuff from a department store (I think Laveranus Coles was suspended too?).

So he misses a game or two, then at the end of the year he says something to the effect of, "I can't believe they didn't invite me to the ceremony."

Then when the vote results came out, he was nowhere in sniffing distance of the trophy.

Crim

12-14-2008, 11:15 AM

Peter Warrick - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Warrick)

At the time of his arrest, Warrick was considered by many as the front-runner for the Heisman Trophy with 36 catches for 508 yards and four touchdowns on the season. The Seminoles receiver was scoring touchdowns on highlight-film type runs and receptions and was in the national spotlight every week. Following the arrest, Florida State suspended Warrick for two key games (Coles, who paid for the clothes, was kicked off the team; he'd been suspended earlier in the season). The two-game suspension, along with the negative publicity he received in the national media, ended any chance for Warrick to be awarded the Heisman Trophy. At season's end, Warrick was not invited to the Heisman Trophy Award Presentation at the Downtown Athletic Club, and finished sixth in the overall voting.[1] The trophy was awarded to Wisconsin running back Ron Dayne.

sterlingice

12-14-2008, 06:20 PM

Here's one SEC writer's ballot
http://images.morris.com/images/athens/mdControlled/cms/2008/12/12/366899729.jpg
and his rationale for the vote (http://www.onlineathens.com/stories/121308/foo_366896817.shtml)

"
There are several suppositions about college football that I believe to be true.

I believe that even in a down season, the Southeastern Conference is still the finest of all college football leagues.

I believe the level of defensive talent in the SEC far exceeds that of any other conference, and the defensive coaches guiding those players are, by and large, superior to those from other leagues.

Therefore, I believe that for an offensive player to excel in the SEC - let alone dominate it - he would rank not only among the conference's top players, but among the best in the nation."

Ergo, I will always vote for the "best" player in the SEC and thus I should have my voting privileges revoked.

SI

Capital

12-14-2008, 08:11 PM

The SEC is definitely down this year. There's just so many major programs that are not on the same page this year. However, I think Florida is on a different plane and Tebow is the reason.

Maybe this year will be different, but I've seen the story of Oklahoma before. Score millions of points against the Big 12 and then go to a major bowl/national championship and lay an egg: losses against West Virginia, Boise State, USC, LSU.

Ohio State has the bad reputation right now but Oklahoma in recent National Championship games leave something to be desired - mostly because their defense is not up to par.

Noop

12-14-2008, 08:33 PM

Crim, you would be correct, although without the scandal I would imagine Peter Warrick would have won the Heisman that season. That season he was electric and was responsible in leading the Seminoles to the title that season. He was truly one of a kind.

Crim

12-15-2008, 06:13 PM

Yup, I agree, who was it -- Dane? -- that won that year?

Warrick was an amazing college talent, whose skill set just didn't translate to the NFL. He was really small, if I recall, and not really fast. Just so elusive and unpredictable.

Anyway I can't find a supporting source, but I think I remember at the time him giving an interview wherein he bitched about how unfair it was that he didn't get invited to New York.

JonInMiddleGA

12-15-2008, 07:16 PM

Anyway I can't find a supporting source, but I think I remember at the time him giving an interview wherein he bitched about how unfair it was that he didn't get invited to New York.

He may have later, but his initial comments were pretty mild.
http://www.pub.umich.edu/daily/1999/dec/12-07-99/sports/sports5.html
Last week, Warrick admitted he probably had no chance to win the Heisman, but hoped to be invited to New York.

"When I got in that trouble, it hurt me a lot," Warrick said. He also said the Heisman winner should be "the person that can help their team win no matter what they have to do. Keep the team first and remain unselfish."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/college/1999/bowls/sugar/news/2000/01/04/closer_look/
Warrick has said repeatedly that he learned his lesson from the Dillard's incident. When asked after the game whether, knowing he'd win the Sugar Bowl ring and MVP, he'd go through the whole season again, Warrick answered with an emphatic "yes."

"I didn't win the Heisman, I didn't win the Biletnikoff, but I can't gripe about that," Warrick said. "I came back [for his senior year] for two reasons: to graduate and to win the national championship, and I did both.

"I can't please everybody. If someone hates me, I'm still going to love them. I know that I'm a role model, that kids look up to me. I made a mistake, and I'm never going to make it again."