Only the Detroit Lions could do this

[DeToxRox]

Now keep in mind as you read that the committee being used to interview a GM features Martin Mayhew, who wants the fulltime GM gig, and Tom Lewand, who wants Mayhew to have the fulltime GM gig.

How does the league even allow this to happen?

And just to note, this does not surprise me they're coming back, but wow, I still don't get it, and the process that is going around with it is that much more maddening.

I honestly do not think the Lions sellout one home game next year. Five were blacked out this season, and they had to have extensions for the other three, including the Home Opener and Thanksgiving.

Unreal.

Ford: Lewand, Mayhew will stay with Lions
by Tom Kowalski
Sunday December 21, 2008, 3:30 PM
AP File PhotoTom Lewand, Detroit Lions executive vice president and chief operating officer, walks the sidelines during Detroit's' game against Green Bay Packers earlier this season. Lions owner William Clay Ford said he wants both Martin Mayhew and Lewand to stay with the Lions next season.

DETROIT -- Despite the possibility that his team could finish 0-16 this season, Detroit Lions owner William Clay Ford made it clear that there will not be a complete house-cleaning in the offseason.

Prior to Sunday's Lions-Saints game, Ford said that he will hire another person to join the team's football operations but that person might not fill the typical general manager role. Ford said the new hire might not have total control over all personnel matters and that those decisions could be done by committee.

"It depends. I don't know about the odds (of hiring a GM with total authority),'' Ford said. "Let's see who's available and what experience they have and see if they fit in any of our slots.''

Ford said that regardless of who he hires, he also wants both Martin Mayhew and Tom Lewand to stay with the organization -- possibly in the positions they currently hold.

"I don't want to delineate positions to exactly where 'This is you' and "This is me.' I want to leave some latitude,'' Ford said. "When we get a good person, I want Martin in on that, I want his opinion.''

Ford said the team would begin to interview candidates at the end of the regular season and the process will involve a three-man panel.

"Lewand, Martin and me,'' said Ford, adding he wanted to have some decisions made within three weeks after the end of the season.

When asked if vice chairman Bill Ford Jr. will be involved in the offseason decisions, Ford Sr. said, "I don't know, I think he's got a plate-full right now. It depends on what his availability is.''

Mayhew, who had held the title of assistant general manager, took over as general manager in late September after president Matt Millen was fired. Mayhew has reported directly to Ford since that time.

When asked if he was happy with the job Mayhew has done so far, Ford said, "Oh yeah, very.''

Ford also said that if the Lions decide to go with a general manager who holds total authority over all football decisions, Mayhew will be among the candidates.

If Ford goes that route and Mayhew doesn't get the job, Ford said he still wants Mayhew to stay with the Lions organization.

Lewand is expected to continue in his capacity as the team's chief operating officer and run the team's day-to-day business activities and also have authority over all Ford Field operations.

Ford said he's "talked to some people'' and that the team is still putting together a list of candidates to be interviewed. Ford said he doesn't believe there is one "football genius'' out there who can come in and make all the right decisions independently.

"No. If there is, I haven't met him yet,'' Ford said.

As for coach Rod Marinelli and his job status, Ford said he hasn't made any decisions yet.

"I don't know, I haven't made up my mind. I'm leaving it open,'' Ford said.

When asked about Marinelli's 0-14 record -- and Detroit's losses in 21 of the previous 22 games (prior to Sunday's result) -- Ford repeated: "No, I'm keeping it open.''

If there is a change at head coach, Ford said he doesn't know yet who might spearhead that search, himself or the new GM.

"Both of those (head coach and GM) positions now are a little nebulous so it's hard for me to say the GM will do it or I'll do it because I don't know who's going to fit in what slot,'' said Ford, adding that his goal is to make the right choices that will put the Lions on a winning path.

"I hope when this whole process is over with that we've got an organization that can build a winning team,'' Ford said. "The fans have been great and they deserve winners. We're all frustrated. We want to win, too. I hope this is the end product.''

[DeToxRox]

And, to add some more, from another beat writer for the Lions:

Lions statement on Ford-Mayhew

The Lions just handed out a statement in the press box confirming a report that Tom Lewand and Martin Mayhew will remain a part of the organization next year.

The statement: "Lions Owner and Chairman William Clay Ford confirmed this afternoon that he expects both Tom Lewand and Martin Mayhew to return to the organization next season. Any decisions regarding the football operations and the coaching staff will be made after the season."

[Karlifornia]

Did Martin Mayhew used to be a defensive back?

[JonInMiddleGA]

And the talking heads on Fox can't rush to the defense of Marinelli fast enough after a reporter pounded him pretty good for his questionable defensive coordinator (his son-in-law).

I thought the last question "Do you wish your daughter had married a better defensive coordinator" was one that a lot of fans in Detroit might have liked to ask themselves if they had a chance.

edit to add: I mention this here instead of the regular weekly thread because it sort of highlights a problem that seems to be part of what you mention here: incompetence isn't really hammered in the NFL, especially not when they get in the mood to close ranks. Clueless though retaining the front office guys might be, it seems even worse to me that there's even a consideration of retaining the current staff.

[DeToxRox]

And the talking heads on Fox can't rush to the defense of Marinelli fast enough after a reporter pounded him pretty good for his questionable defensive coordinator (his son-in-law).

I thought the last question "Do you wish your daughter had married a better defensive coordinator" was one that a lot of fans in Detroit might have liked to ask themselves if they had a chance.

I chuckled at that.

Rob Parker is an awful columnist though, but regardless, up until the last question, he asked good questions and Rod gave his usual response.

[MJ4H]

That question was really shitty.

[DeToxRox]

If you live around here, you just know Parker wants to get noticed.

He was on ESPN when Bonds broke the HR record when he wrote Hank Aaron was a coward for not showing up to see him do it. He's also said Kevin Love and Tyler Hansborough will be busts in the NBA because they're white.

That is what he is.

It's funny because no one here likes him, and that question was him trying to be funny and he royally bombed. It was so absurd I found it hilarious because hes the kind of guy who thinks hes the funniest guy around, and that went on deaf ears.

[GrantDawg]

That question was really shitty.


Yeah, it was. And it was spit coke out of my nose funny as well.

[Karlifornia]

Yeah...that question was very rude, but very funny, IMO.

[Jas_lov]

Parker is trash. Everytime I see him on ESPN he's saying something stupid, usually about race. He makes Skip Bayless look good on that morning show.

You would think the Lions would see the quick turnarounds by some teams this year and would try to blow everything up and start new. I guess that's why they're the Lions though.

[Apathetic Lurker]

Did Martin Mayhew used to be a defensive back?

Yes, for the Bills

[Passacaglia]

Did Martin Mayhew used to be a defensive back?

Of course. Everyone knows former players make the best GMs.

[Matthean]

So if the Ford company goes "0-16" in a year, does this mean they don't fire anybody?

The sad thing is a monkey could out GM Millen so by default whoever comes in could have the Lions get to 4 to 6 wins and suddenly Ford Sr. is thinking he made the right decision even if the Lions never got back to above .500.

[Logan]

But they should still be able to keep the Thanksgiving game!

[PilotMan]

As if things in Detroit weren't bad enough just to live there, but they have to endure a terrible football team at the same time. Bengals fans everywhere understand you feel.



Go Steelers!

[Samdari]

I don't understand how anyone could lay the blame for 0-16 at the feet of Mayhew and Lewand. This team is Matt Millen's. The only opportunity the new guys had to do anything with this team was at the trade deadline, and most people think they did pretty well there.

They already cleaned house in the front office. Why would it be surprising if they did not do it again?

[bronconick]

I don't understand how anyone could lay the blame for 0-16 at the feet of Mayhew and Lewand. This team is Matt Millen's. The only opportunity the new guys had to do anything with this team was at the trade deadline, and most people think they did pretty well there.

They already cleaned house in the front office. Why would it be surprising if they did not do it again?


These guys were Millen's assistants. Their hands are hardly clean of this disaster.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

For the record, the Chiefs have lost 22 of their last 24. GM is out and Coach Edwards likely will only be retained if the new GM wants him.

Detroit has lost 22 of 23 and is telling people they can keep their job. Detroit, I feel your pain.

[flere-imsaho]

My sympathies to Detroit fans. That's a real clusterfuck you've got going on there.

Any chance Bill Ford comes in at some point and straightens things out?

[ISiddiqui]

As Joey Harrington said on Sunday:

"It's weird to think I was here in the hey-day"

[Honolulu_Blue]

I was sort of happy for this news. There I was yesterday afternoon, listening to the first half of the Lions' game on a Walkman I stumbled randomly upon a few weeks ago in the basement. I was surfing the interent, came across this article, the Saints were on the verge of going up 21-7 and then I shut it down. It finally put me over the top or under the bottom or however you want to phrase it.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I guess the one upside to this whole 0-16 thing will be that we wont have to listen to Bengals or Cardinals fans when debating which is the worst NFL franchise of all time.

That debate will be over.

[Samdari]

These guys were Millen's assistants. Their hands are hardly clean of this disaster.

Yeah, but decision making authority on personnel moves clearly rested with him. These guys may have been against him, on his disastrous moves. We (and probably the Fords) have no idea.

Sure, the GM and coach have to go, but I don't see it as axiomatic in the NFL that all assistant GM's get fired too. Sometimes they are elevated to GM, or at least kept in their current capacity.

[SportsDino]

What happens when you have circle-jerking nepotism at the top of your organization!?

Poor, poor lions... haven't had anything to root for since Barry.

[bhlloy]

Well, it's hardly normal in the NFL that teams go 1-21 either. It boggles my mind that anybody involved in this disaster would keep their job.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

I am excited about next Sunday in Green Bay. It will be the closest thing to going to the Super Bowl the Lions have had in my lifetime. I'm considering it the Anti-Super Bowl. It is the opportunity to cement their place in NFL history, accomplishing something no other team has done. And I seriously fear they will screw it up and somehow win, becoming just another 1-15 team.

Well, thanks to Ford there is always next year.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I am excited about next Sunday in Green Bay. It will be the closest thing to going to the Super Bowl the Lions have had in my lifetime. I'm considering it the Anti-Super Bowl. It is the opportunity to cement their place in NFL history, accomplishing something no other team has done. And I seriously fear they will screw it up and somehow win, becoming just another 1-15 team.

Well, thanks to Ford there is always next year.

I don't want to see them go 0-16. I really don't.

As much as I'd like to see them win next week, they have shown no reason to believe that they are capable of winning a football game. First, they simply lack the talent to compete in this league. Other than a very small handful of players, there are no NFL starting caliber palyers on this team. I can only think of maybe one or two on the defense alone. Second, they are poorly coached and make far too many mental errors and mistakes. A team that is so woefully lacking in talent simply can't afford to make mistakes. They do so constantly. Third, their defense can't stop anyone. They have not made a stop when they've needed to all season.

They are going to head to Green Bay, a place where they haven't won since 1991, and try to end a 20 some odd game losing streak. I don't care if the Packers have nothing to play for. The Saints didn't either and that game wasn't even competitive.

As for the Mayhew hiring, no he's not directly responsible for the horrible shape of the franchise, but his hands aren't clean either. While he might deserve a shot, I just don't see how the Lions can hand the franchise over, again, to someone without a proven track record. This whole "learning on the job" thing that Millen led to the current situation.

[sterlingice]

If you live around here, you just know Parker wants to get noticed.

He was on ESPN when Bonds broke the HR record when he wrote Hank Aaron was a coward for not showing up to see him do it. He's also said Kevin Love and Tyler Hansborough will be busts in the NBA because they're white.

That is what he is.

It's funny because no one here likes him, and that question was him trying to be funny and he royally bombed. It was so absurd I found it hilarious because hes the kind of guy who thinks hes the funniest guy around, and that went on deaf ears.

That's funny and sad. It's basically someone who aspires to be Jason Whitlock. You just described Whitlock to a T but for some reason, people keep hiring him...

SI

[Cringer]

This whole thing just makes me think of the guys on NFL Radio who once Millen was fired said the Lions needed to bring in some kind of consultant right away to help them prepare for these kinds of decisions once the offseason hits. You bring in someone, like Ron Wolf, who looks at things from the coaching staff, the players, the front office, and give suggestions to the owners on which way they should go. Who they think needs to move on, help them find a new GM, and all that. Someone to help rebuild the front office and team. Once new top guys are in place that advisor is done and leaves.

A few weeks ago the NFL Radio guys where ripping the Lions for never doing this. Now I see why.

[Mustang]

Maybe Bush can engineer a 1 win bailout in congress to help the Lions.

As much teeth gnashing as Packer fans do about the 5-9 season we are having, there are alot of teams that I wouldn't want to trade places with and the Lions top that list. (After next week, possible that Denver might top that list since I'm not sure what is worse, going 0-16 or just absolutely collapsing and missing the playoffs)

[primelord]

I don't care if the Packers have nothing to play for.

The Packers will absolutely have something to play for though. Specifically when you aren't making the playoffs anyway, you don't want to be the only team that managed to lose to a 1-15 team. Especially in your house and especially with the way Green Bay views their house.

[Honolulu_Blue]

The Packers will absolutely have something to play for though. Specifically when you aren't making the playoffs anyway, you don't want to be the only team that managed to lose to a 1-15 team. Especially in your house and especially with the way Green Bay views their house.

Good point.

As a long time St. Louis Blues fan I see you have developed a keen insight into what teams, who appear to have nothing to play for, have to play for. :D

[digamma]

Calvin still should have made the Pro Bowl.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Calvin still should have made the Pro Bowl.

Yeah. He's really very good. Kevin Smith is decent too.

That's about it.

[miami_fan]

So ummm would the guy be the DC if Marinelli was not his father in law?

[Jas_lov]

The Packers are looking great tonight. I don't think the Lions have much of a chance.

[Cringer]

Maybe Bush can engineer a 1 win bailout in congress to help the Lions.

As much teeth gnashing as Packer fans do about the 5-9 season we are having, there are alot of teams that I wouldn't want to trade places with and the Lions top that list. (After next week, possible that Denver might top that list since I'm not sure what is worse, going 0-16 or just absolutely collapsing and missing the playoffs)

Uhm, as a Packer fan I wouldn't care if Green bay was the team about to go 0-16, I still wouldn't switch places with a Lions fan.

[kcchief19]

Any chance Bill Ford comes in at some point and straightens things out?
For the sake of the Lions, do we really want Bill Ford applying the skills he developed running Ford Motor into the ground into the Lions? The NFL is talking about eliminating preseason games and extending the regular season so 0-18 is possible.

As a Chiefs fan, sad news for the Lions is good news for our draft possibilities.

[JediKooter]

So when do the Lions get kicked out of the Premier league?

[Jas_lov]

With the way the Packers just lost that game and how their season is going, I think I now like the Lions chance to win. The Packers just find new ways to lose every week.

[Axxon]

I am excited about next Sunday in Green Bay. It will be the closest thing to going to the Super Bowl the Lions have had in my lifetime. I'm considering it the Anti-Super Bowl. It is the opportunity to cement their place in NFL history, accomplishing something no other team has done. And I seriously fear they will screw it up and somehow win, becoming just another 1-15 team.

Well, thanks to Ford there is always next year.


Bah, amateurs. Get back to me when you're 0-26. Then we can talk.

[MLA]

Ford needs to say that the people involved aren't about to get fired when there's still a game to go - and a potentially winnable one at that. After the season he better start shaking it all up to revive the franchise in the same brilliant way the auto makers of the city have turned their fortunes around against better run competition...

[Balldog]

My fear is these guys are more likely to keep Marineli around.

[Matthean]

The Packers will absolutely have something to play for though. Specifically when you aren't making the playoffs anyway, you don't want to be the only team that managed to lose to a 1-15 team. Especially in your house and especially with the way Green Bay views their house.

And how motivated are the Lions going to be once they hit the field,feel the hard cold air, see the snow, etc...

[boberot]

And how motivated are the Lions going to be once they hit the field,feel the hard cold air, see the snow, etc...

Isn't the prospect of being linked for all time to perhaps the most pathetic and futile team in the history of pro football motivation enough?

As a one-win team, the story doesn't have staying power, but being on the only team ever to go 0-16 stays with you forever I'd imagine.

[Axxon]

Isn't the prospect of being linked for all time to perhaps the most pathetic and futile team in the history of pro football motivation enough?

As a one-win team, the story doesn't have staying power, but being on the only team ever to go 0-16 stays with you forever I'd imagine.

Why? Why is 0-16 such a big deal? Again, they won't be the first winless team in a season and like I said, until they hit 0-26, they're just a sucky team, not a historically sucky one. Trust me youngsters, there's no way this team is as bad as the '76 Buccaneers. There hasn't been nor will there likely ever be a team so bad. They changed the entire rules of expansion because they were so bad.

ESPN knows it.
hxxp://assets.espn.go.com/page2/s/list/football/teams/worst.html

Pat Toomey knows it.
hxxp://espn.go.com/page2/s/toomay/011227.html

Rod Marinelli knows it.

It's just like the Patriots were all jazzed because they won 16 and were acting like they're the greatest team to go undefeated in a season because they played in 2 more games than the Dolphins. It's not really accurate.

If you want to say they're the worst ever since the league went to 16 game seasons then that's ok, but if you cherry pick stats you can make practically any argument.

Again, I am kinda biased but I've seen both teams play and there's no way this Lions team loses to that Bucs team. They're nowhere near as bad. At least they have SOME NFL worthy talent.

[Logan]

I would hope being 0-16 and being the second worst team in history wouldn't exactly be appealing either.

[Radii]

Trust me youngsters, there's no way this team is as bad as the '76 Buccaneers. There hasn't been nor will there likely ever be a team so bad. They changed the entire rules of expansion because they were so bad.


That's a big part of the reason that makes what the Lions are doing so terrible. The last winless was an expansion franchise in the worst of situations. This Lions team had to work hard to build an 0-16 team!

[Honolulu_Blue]

Why? Why is 0-16 such a big deal? Again, they won't be the first winless team in a season and like I said, until they hit 0-26, they're just a sucky team, not a historically sucky one. Trust me youngsters, there's no way this team is as bad as the '76 Buccaneers. There hasn't been nor will there likely ever be a team so bad. They changed the entire rules of expansion because they were so bad.

ESPN knows it.
hxxp://assets.espn.go.com/page2/s/list/football/teams/worst.html

Pat Toomey knows it.
hxxp://espn.go.com/page2/s/toomay/011227.html

Rod Marinelli knows it.

It's just like the Patriots were all jazzed because they won 16 and were acting like they're the greatest team to go undefeated in a season because they played in 2 more games than the Dolphins. It's not really accurate.

If you want to say they're the worst ever since the league went to 16 game seasons then that's ok, but if you cherry pick stats you can make practically any argument.

Again, I am kinda biased but I've seen both teams play and there's no way this Lions team loses to that Bucs team. They're nowhere near as bad. At least they have SOME NFL worthy talent.

You're missing the point, old man. :)

First, as Radii mentioned, the Buccs team was an expansion team, not one of the longest running NFL (or otherwise) franchises ever.

Second, the is just the cherry on top of the shit sundae that is the Detroit Lions. This potentially 0-16 team is the culmination of 51 years of ineptitude. They have one playoff win in that time span and they have the worst record, ever, over the last, what, 7 to 9 years or so? Even worse than the Buccs '76 to whatever. Even worse.

So, while the 2008 Detroit Lions may not be as bad as the 1976 Tampa Buccaneers, the Detroit Lions, as an organization, will have officialy sunk to depths hereto unknown before.

That's what makes this whole thing just so speical. This is a Lifetime Achievement award, not some little one off thing. So, you can keep talking about 0-26, but it doesn't matter. You're missing the forrest for the trees.

[Solecismic]

I am so hoping the search committee contacts me for an assistant GM position. I'm qualified, right?

Ten years programming an imaginary football game? Therefore I can work for an imaginary football team.

[Young Drachma]

I am so hoping the search committee contacts me for an assistant GM position. I'm qualified, right?

Ten years programming an imaginary football game? Therefore I can work for an imaginary football team.

Real life pro soccer team to use Football Manager 2009 game database for scouting - Neoseeker News Article (http://www.neoseeker.com/news/9222-real-life-pro-soccer-team-to-use-football-manager-2009-game-database-for-scouting/)

Keith Law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Law)

I think you ought to do it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I am so hoping the search committee contacts me for an assistant GM position. I'm qualified, right?

Depends.

Does your wife have any relatives in the organization?

[flere-imsaho]

I think the problem is that Jim would be overqualified. To whit:

managers job (http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~kritip/managers%20job.htm)

[Axxon]

That's what makes this whole thing just so speical.

I think the word you're looking for is fecal and yes, as a lifetime achievement award maybe, but again, when it comes to all time sucktitude, most people really don't remember how bad the buccaneers were or for how long.

Between 1976-2009 the Lions had ( will have ) 13 double digit losing seasons. The Bucs have had 19. Hell, they had a glorious streak of 12 10+ loss seasons in a row. They then took a break and only lost 9 but made up for it with a 6-10 record which finally got us Tony Dungy.

So, any way you slice it, this old man who had to live and die by my team through every single one of those years isn't going to let some mediocre team having a particularly bad season claim all time suckiness champ so easily. ;) 12 double digit loss seasons in a row. That son, is ineptitude.

Of course, it made 1/26/2003 one of the most satisfying days of my life.

[Axxon]

Dola,

Gotta admit it's close though. It really is.

Oh, and look at it this way. Tampa Bay gave the Lions Wayne Fontes and Rod Marinelli so we've given you both your best and worst coaches in your history. ;)

[Axxon]

Trola, it seems the Lions are far from the worst franchise in NFL history. Lifetime w/l percentages.

Lions .463

Cardinals .413 //. and they've been in the league 10 years longer than the Lions so...

Falcons .409
Bengals .433

Texans .355
Saints .411
Jets .454
Buccaneers .400

So, not counting the Texans who are still a new team, guess who's on the bottom of the list by a good margin??

Stats through 2008
hxxp://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/

[Schmidty]

I've been avoiding this thread like the plague, but I just can't anymore. I am beaten down. I've never felt this numb before. It's an odd feeling being numb and hopeless about a team, a tradition that you've grown up with just become a trash heap with not a glimpse of light of the future.

Sports aren't supposed to break your heart like real life does, but when things like my uncle dying, one of the most hardcore fans ever, with out ever seeing a Super Bowl and only one playoff victory in his life, is just........gut-wrenching. :(

[Honolulu_Blue]

Trola, it seems the Lions are far from the worst franchise in NFL history. Lifetime w/l percentages.

Lions .463

Cardinals .413 //. and they've been in the league 10 years longer than the Lions so...

Falcons .409
Bengals .433

Texans .355
Saints .411
Jets .454
Buccaneers .400

So, not counting the Texans who are still a new team, guess who's on the bottom of the list by a good margin??

Stats through 2008
hxxp://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/

I guess the one upside to this whole 0-16 thing will be that we wont have to listen to Bengals or Cardinals fans when debating which is the worst NFL franchise of all time.

That debate will be over.

I already covered this.

[Matthean]

Trola, it seems the Lions are far from the worst franchise in NFL history. Lifetime w/l percentages.

Lions .463

Cardinals .413 //. and they've been in the league 10 years longer than the Lions so...

Falcons .409
Bengals .433

Texans .355
Saints .411
Jets .454
Buccaneers .400

So, not counting the Texans who are still a new team, guess who's on the bottom of the list by a good margin??

Stats through 2008
hxxp://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/

And now look at how many of those teams have at least been to a Super Bowl. The Bucs won a Super Bowl and a recent one at that. Do you see Tampa's .400 going lower? Do you see Detroit's going higher? Also note Detroit gets to play at home during a short week for Thanksgiving and then gets a long week for it's next game. I believe this year Detroit got the long week and then played Minnesota who played on Monday Night. Tampa has had Dungy and Gruden for coaches. The best the Lions got under the Fords was Fontes. Shall we compare QBs? Does "Tampa Cover 2" sound familar? Does anybody name much of anything after the Lions defensive, or offensive systems?

[Danny]

The Lions W/L % is also higher because when they were playing in the 40's-60's before the AFL/NFL merger that actually were not terrible.

[Greyroofoo]

I've been avoiding this thread like the plague, but I just can't anymore. I am beaten down. I've never felt this numb before. It's an odd feeling being numb and hopeless about a team, a tradition that you've grown up with just become a trash heap with not a glimpse of light of the future.

Sports aren't supposed to break your heart like real life does, but when things like my uncle dying, one of the most hardcore fans ever, with out ever seeing a Super Bowl and only one playoff victory in his life, is just........gut-wrenching. :(

I recommend you go turn on a Red Wings game.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I recommend you go turn on a Red Wings game.

Sound advice. It works wonders for me.

[Axxon]

And now look at how many of those teams have at least been to a Super Bowl. The Bucs won a Super Bowl and a recent one at that. Do you see Tampa's .400 going lower? Do you see Detroit's going higher? Also note Detroit gets to play at home during a short week for Thanksgiving and then gets a long week for it's next game. I believe this year Detroit got the long week and then played Minnesota who played on Monday Night. Tampa has had Dungy and Gruden for coaches. The best the Lions got under the Fords was Fontes. Shall we compare QBs? Does "Tampa Cover 2" sound familar? Does anybody name much of anything after the Lions defensive, or offensive systems?

All I'm hearing from Lion fans is that they trump both the worst season ever and the worst all time because they happen to suck now.

The Bucs were both worse for a single season and for all times. So what if they won't have their record overall get worse. Do I see Detroit's winning percentage rising? Of course I do.

Certainly not this season and likely not next but it will happen. Can you honestly say you have less reason to believe that the Lions will get better than the Bucs did when they ripped off their 12th consecutive double digit loss season?

No, not really. But guess what, owners die, they sell teams, things happen. How about Miami and Atlanta this season? Atlanta, of course, is still worse than the Lions historically. How long would it take for them to rise past the Lions and their only 7th worst record of all times? It's not happening anytime soon I can tell you. It'll take even longer for the Bucs to rise past them.

Detroit will come back and will maybe even get to a playoff game again eventually. It's bound to happen. All they have to do is marginally improve and they can win the North.

I know it's really a down time for Lions fans and I can understand the frustration because I've been there but I'm just calling you guys on the hyperbole. They're not the worst franchise ever and they will get marginally better. It is inevitable.

[Thomkal]

No it just gets worse when your long suffering team finally makes the playoffs then gets called the "worst playoff team in NFL history" like my beloved Cards have been called after the last few weeks of games

[Honolulu_Blue]

All I'm hearing from Lion fans is that they trump both the worst season ever and the worst all time because they happen to suck now.

The Bucs were both worse for a single season and for all times. So what if they won't have their record overall get worse. Do I see Detroit's winning percentage rising? Of course I do.

Certainly not this season and likely not next but it will happen. Can you honestly say you have less reason to believe that the Lions will get better than the Bucs did when they ripped off their 12th consecutive double digit loss season?

No, not really. But guess what, owners die, they sell teams, things happen. How about Miami and Atlanta this season? Atlanta, of course, is still worse than the Lions historically. How long would it take for them to rise past the Lions and their only 7th worst record of all times? It's not happening anytime soon I can tell you. It'll take even longer for the Bucs to rise past them.

Detroit will come back and will maybe even get to a playoff game again eventually. It's bound to happen. All they have to do is marginally improve and they can win the North.

I know it's really a down time for Lions fans and I can understand the frustration because I've been there but I'm just calling you guys on the hyperbole. They're not the worst franchise ever and they will get marginally better. It is inevitable.

Hyperbole? This word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

51 years, dude. Fifty. One. Years.

Sure, it's bound to happen, but this is not just a case of the Lions just happening to "suck now." They have had five decades of suck. This isn't Bengals' fans wringing their hands and wallowing in woe after a decade of hard times following a couple of Super Bowl appearances.

No, this is a team that has never been to a Super Bowl, has won one playoff game in 51 years, is mired in the worst 7-9 year (I forget exactly) stretch in the history of the league, and is on the verge of becoming the first 0-16 team. Ever.

Hyperbole? I think not, kind sir.

The closest thing they have had to "greatness" over the last 51 years was the Barry Sanders Era. What did that Golden Age amount to? One playoff win and the organization forcing one of the great players of all time, Barry Sanders, into retirement because of their ineptitude. Thus, even the Lions' Golden Era is tainted with a foul odor.

I have said this before, many times here in fact, the only NFL franchise who has any claim at being legitimately worse than the Lions are the Cardinals. They, like the Lions, have been around forever, have a crappy all time record, and have had similar futility in the playoffs. What puts them over the top is the fact that they've moved around. If the Lions lose to Green Bay on Sunday, their will have usurped the Cardinals and will have claimed the title as "Worst Franchise Ever".

If a Franchise has actually made it to the Super Bowl (not even win, mind you, but actually played in one) that franchise is imeddiately disqualified from the rankings until every "long term" franchise has at least been in the big game.

Expansion teams, like Houston, have many, many more years of horribleness ahead of them before they will be considered for the Rankings.

This is not a matter of opinion. This is not a matter for debate. This is fact.

Once the Lions "come back and will maybe even get to a playoff game again eventually", then we can revisit this and the rankings will change. The rankings are not set in stone, by their very nature they are a fluid thing, sort of the weekly Power Rankings that people are so fond of.

If you think there is a worse NFL franchise than the Lions (assuming they go 0-16 this year), please, make your case.

That is all.

[Matthean]

Do I see Detroit's winning percentage rising? Of course I do.

Only delusional Lions fans would agree with you.

[Passacaglia]

That one playoff win was fun to watch, though.

[Honolulu_Blue]

That one playoff win was fun to watch, though.

Totally. Really, really fun. Easily the best time I have ever had watching a Lions game.

[Axxon]

Well, Lion fans are the most delusional fans apparently. They will cherry pick and explain away anything to get the coveted crown. The reason they beat the Cardinals is because, yes, the Cardinals have been around longer, have a worst w/l percentage and haven't won anything either but AHA!!! they have been so crappy that two communities wouldn't support them so they had to move. Somehow, being that sucky is a plus not a negative see so the Lions are the worst.

Once one tries to float that shitburger there's no point trying to hold a rational discussion on the issue. I mean, every objective measure supports the Cardinals worseness historically except for this so of course this has to be the key ingredient that magically raise the worse franchise over the better one giving the Lions the title.

[Axxon]

From Wikipedia just for fun

The Lions have won four NFL Championships, the last in 1957, giving the club the second-longest NFL championship drought behind the Arizona Cardinals, who last won in 1947 (as the Chicago Cardinals).

Wow, four championships. I bet the Saints, Falcons, hell, the Bucs would love four championships and there are those pesky Cardinals again, thank goodness they had those moves to push them ahead of the Lions or it'd get ugly.

Cardinals:

In the six-plus decades since winning the championship in 1947, the team has qualified for the playoffs only five times and has won but a single playoff game.


Lions:

The team has qualified for the playoffs only nine times in the 50-plus years since winning the 1957 championship and has won only one playoff game in that span.

I'm guessing this is irrelevant as well.

[ISiddiqui]

Have the Saints, Falcons, and Bucs been in existence since 1957? ;)

But I agree with your general point. The Cardinals are FAR, FAR, FAR worse. At least the Lions had Barry Sanders.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Well, Lion fans are the most delusional fans apparently. They will cherry pick and explain away anything to get the coveted crown. The reason they beat the Cardinals is because, yes, the Cardinals have been around longer, have a worst w/l percentage and haven't won anything either but AHA!!! they have been so crappy that two communities wouldn't support them so they had to move. Somehow, being that sucky is a plus not a negative see so the Lions are the worst.

Once one tries to float that shitburger there's no point trying to hold a rational discussion on the issue. I mean, every objective measure supports the Cardinals worseness historically except for this so of course this has to be the key ingredient that magically raise the worse franchise over the better one giving the Lions the title.
Wait, I thought you were arguing that the Bucs were worse than the Lions...

[st.cronin]

This thread is hilarious. :D

[Axxon]

Have the Saints, Falcons, and Bucs been in existence since 1957? ;)

But I agree with your general point. The Cardinals are FAR, FAR, FAR worse. At least the Lions had Barry Sanders.

I got brought in here because of the following assertion.

It is the opportunity to cement their place in NFL history, accomplishing something no other team has done. And I seriously fear they will screw it up and somehow win, becoming just another 1-15 team.


Which to me meant that somehow the 0-16 was the accomplishment he was referring to ( since I never really assumed that 1 particular loss since 1957 would push the team over the worst franchise "evah" title ) but he corrected me and said that that one loss would clearly be the one that made them the worst OF ALL TIME at which point I backed off the Bucs ( since they had the worst season of all time ) and have been proving ( to myself too I'll admit ) that the Cardinals are indeed are the worst franchise "evah."

[Axxon]

Wait, I thought you were arguing that the Bucs were worse than the Lions...

See my last post.

[Axxon]

This thread is hilarious. :D

Leave me alone. I was born and raised in Tampa, went to college in New Orleans and live in Phoenix. I have three times the suckiness on my side so even if he won his argument, I've suffered way more. ;)

[Matthean]

Leave me alone. I was born and raised in Tampa, went to college in New Orleans and live in Phoenix. I have three times the suckiness on my side so even if he won his argument, I've suffered way more. ;)

Now if you could just move to Dallas...

[Honolulu_Blue]

From Wikipedia just for fun



Wow, four championships. I bet the Saints, Falcons, hell, the Bucs would love four championships and there are those pesky Cardinals again, thank goodness they had those moves to push them ahead of the Lions or it'd get ugly.

Cardinals:



Lions:


I'm guessing this is irrelevant as well.

As I noted....


I have said this before, many times here in fact, the only NFL franchise who has any claim at being legitimately worse than the Lions are the Cardinals. They, like the Lions, have been around forever, have a crappy all time record, and have had similar futility in the playoffs. What puts them over the top is the fact that they've moved around. If the Lions lose to Green Bay on Sunday, their will have usurped the Cardinals and will have claimed the title as "Worst Franchise Ever".

[Honolulu_Blue]

Well, this whole "worst franchise ever" discussion has just become moot.

Congrats, Lions!

[flere-imsaho]

I think we may have all collectively jinxed (reverse jinxed) the Cardinals into the Super Bowl with this thread.

[RendeR]

With the Cardinals rise to NFC power in this Super Bowl and based on the pleathura of statistics from all sides in this thread I hereby decree that CURRENTLY the Detroit Lions are the Worst Franchise in NFL history.

Congratulations Detroit. You truly know how to disappoint your fans and produce utter shyte on the Football Field.

Things to note in my decision:

having WON or APPEARED in a Super Bowl Disqualifies your team from consideration, no matter how pathetic your string of seasons may be, having won or played in the penultimate game means you cannot be that awful, even if its just for a season.

So in my OH so humble opinion the only teams remaining in the hunt for "Worst Team Ever" are the following:

Detroit Lions
Cleveland Browns
New Orleans Saints
Houston Texans/Oilers
Jacksonville Jaguars

[MrDNA]

Browns suck now, but were waaaay too good in their first few decades to even sniff "worst all time." Jaguars are too young and have played well, despite not making the Superbowl. The other three I could give some consideration to.

[Chubby]

Yeah I agree with MrDNA. Tho the Browns suck now, they have been good and you don't have to go back that far either (Kosar)

[MikeVic]

You can't discount the Bengals.

[miami_fan]

Can't connect the Texans and the Oilers either. New Orleans is still too young of a franchise. Lions FTW.

[Honolulu_Blue]

You can't discount the Bengals.

No, you can't. They deserve mention, despite their two Super Bowl appearances.

[Thomkal]

I think we may have all collectively jinxed (reverse jinxed) the Cardinals into the Super Bowl with this thread.

And I thank you! :)

[RendeR]

Can't connect the Texans and the Oilers either. New Orleans is still too young of a franchise. Lions FTW.


I was only relating the texans and oilers in that they were both in Houston. Sorry for the confusion.

I was surprised to see cleveland with the 4th best all time winning percentage. Sad to see where that franchise has fallen.

[Suburban Rhythm]

With the Cardinals rise to NFC power in this Super Bowl and based on the pleathura of statistics from all sides in this thread I hereby decree that CURRENTLY the Detroit Lions are the Worst Franchise in NFL history.

Congratulations Detroit. You truly know how to disappoint your fans and produce utter shyte on the Football Field.

Things to note in my decision:

having WON or APPEARED in a Super Bowl Disqualifies your team from consideration, no matter how pathetic your string of seasons may be, having won or played in the penultimate game means you cannot be that awful, even if its just for a season.

So in my OH so humble opinion the only teams remaining in the hunt for "Worst Team Ever" are the following:

Detroit Lions
Cleveland Browns
New Orleans Saints
Houston Texans/Oilers
Jacksonville Jaguars

Jacksonville has been around, what 13 years? And have at least 2-3 playoff wins in that stretch. Not great, but to include them with the Lions and Saints who have been around much longer, and have fewer playoff wins?

[Tigercat]

The Lions have: (80 years)
4 Championships (1 every 20 years)
13 hall of famers (1 every 6 years)
17 playoff games,
7 playoff wins (1 every 11 years)
Barry Sanders

The Saints have: (40 years)
0 Championships in 40 years
1 hall of fame member
7 playoff games,
2 playoff wins (1 every 20 years)
No Barry Sanders

[MikeVic]

Hmm maybe the Saints are the worst franchise.

[DeToxRox]

Hmm maybe the Saints are the worst franchise.

Yes, but our best days were 15 years ago, and the Saints best days are right now.

[Radii]

Yes, but our best days were 15 years ago, and the Saints best days are right now.

The only reason that matters at all is if the discussion is not about "worst team ever"

Ever includes the entire history. As was mentioned above, there is no way in the world the Browns can be considered because they were so dominant in the 50s and still good in the 60s with Jim Brown.

Detroit doesn't get to discount those 4 titles just because they were a long time ago ;)

[Danny]

Overall I would say Saints, but since the merger and beginning of the super bowl, the Lions.

[Samdari]

Why? Why is 0-16 such a big deal? Again, they won't be the first winless team in a season and like I said, until they hit 0-26, they're just a sucky team, not a historically sucky one. Trust me youngsters, there's no way this team is as bad as the '76 Buccaneers. There hasn't been nor will there likely ever be a team so bad. They changed the entire rules of expansion because they were so bad.

ESPN knows it.
hxxp://assets.espn.go.com/page2/s/list/football/teams/worst.html

Pat Toomey knows it.
hxxp://espn.go.com/page2/s/toomay/011227.html

Rod Marinelli knows it.

It's just like the Patriots were all jazzed because they won 16 and were acting like they're the greatest team to go undefeated in a season because they played in 2 more games than the Dolphins. It's not really accurate.

If you want to say they're the worst ever since the league went to 16 game seasons then that's ok, but if you cherry pick stats you can make practically any argument.

Again, I am kinda biased but I've seen both teams play and there's no way this Lions team loses to that Bucs team. They're nowhere near as bad. At least they have SOME NFL worthy talent.

Read the Pat Toomey piece. It includes the following John McKay quote, way funnier than his oft-remembered being in favor of his team's execution:

McKay, in his press conference, called Denver offensive coordinator Max Corley "a prick." "He was a prick when I knew him at Oregon, he's a prick now and he'll always be a prick," McKay told the assembled reporters. When, the following week, Time magazine reported that it was Ralston whom McKay had called a prick, our coach laughed. "I would have called him a prick," he told a Tampa columnist. "But a prick has a head."

Why is there all this quote love for the vastly overrated Yogi Berra, and little for the way funnier John McKay?

[Matthean]

Why is there all this quote love for the vastly overrated Yogi Berra, and little for the way funnier John McKay?

Yankees > Bucs.

[Axxon]

Well, this whole "worst franchise ever" discussion has just become moot.

Congrats, Lions!

I actually considered dredging up this thread and posting this exact sentiment but I thought it'd be cruel.

Good thing though is that the Bucs appear set to give the Lions a run for their money. A coach and GM with zippo experience with this team inn this division? I'm sensing a run of 5-11 being a successful year for the Pewter and Red. I knew the Glazers had ok'ed the throwback uniforms but I never dreamed they'd resurrect the crappy ownership decisions too. It's Hugh Culverhouse II.

[Axxon]

Read the Pat Toomey piece. It includes the following John McKay quote, way funnier than his oft-remembered being in favor of his team's execution:



Why is there all this quote love for the vastly overrated Yogi Berra, and little for the way funnier John McKay?

I HEART John McKay and I'll always miss his wit. :(

I can't exactly pick only one favorite quote but this one is close if not it.

After the Bucs broke their 26-game losing streak - "Three or four plane crashes and we're in the playoffs.".

or maybe

On losing a key game - "I told our players that there were 700 million Chinese people in the world who didn't even know the game was played. The next week, I got five letters from China asking "What happened?"

or a truthful one

On the prospect of a late-season trip to Green Bay - "Going there is like winning the 98th prize in a beauty contest with only 97 prizes."


Honorable mention.

At a post-game press conference in 1976 "You guys don't know the difference between a football and a bunch of bananas."

The following week after a media member has dropped off a case of bananas at his door - "You guys don't know the difference between a football and a Mercedez-Benz."