BART Shooting

[Noop]

Protests over BART shooting turn violent (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2009/01/08/MN2N155CN1.DTL)

How is this kind of stuff still going on in the world? There is also a video on the internet that you can find if you look, because I am not sure if Skydog will be cool with me posting it.

For those who don't want to click the link, I will try to summarize it. A police officer shoots an unarmed black man who is being restrained by police in the back killing him in the process. The man is in a defenseless position and from the video does not pose an imminent danger to the lives of the officers around.

[DanGarion]

I'm sorry but protests like this don't solve anything. The people are idiots. It sucks that someone got killed, but protesting like morons solves nothing.

[Karlifornia]

I'm sorry but protests like this don't solve anything. The people are idiots. It sucks that someone got killed, but protesting like morons solves nothing.

LOL. And what does..writing to our congressperson? HA!

[DanGarion]

LOL. And what does..writing to our congressperson? HA!
No that doesn't do much either. But these people aren't getting much sympathy from me for their actions after the incident.

Looking at some of the shooting footage, it appears the officer didn't intend to shoot the guy...

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Nia Sykes is a sharp cookie.

[Groundhog]

LOL. And what does..writing to our congressperson? HA!

Smashing innocent people's cars and stores isn't going to make people sympathetic to your cause.

[TCY Junkie]

That woman is so thoughtful. Saying the owner should be thankful she is alive. I'm sure if it was reversed she would feel the same way. Some people are just so thoughtful.

[Karlifornia]

Smashing innocent people's cars and stores isn't going to make people sympathetic to your cause.

Understood, but you have to try to understand that the people around there have been watching a non-stop loop of video showing a fellow citizen get clipped, and the person who did it is still walking free. What more do you need than video evidence? How many murder/manslaughter cases have video evidence? The kid was unarmed. I don't care if it was an accident. I couldn't "accidentally" shoot somebody in the back at point blank range (killing them), and expect to be sitting home the next night eating ho-hos and watching Two and Half Men.

[Tekneek]

So, when the enforcement arm of the government goes renegade, you're supposed to respond in a civil manner? Not buying it. Too many times, police officers go relatively unpunished for these kinds of crimes. They rarely face the same charges and sentences that the average person would, had they committed the same acts. Faced with a history of the justice system going light (if even addressing them at all) on these kinds of issues, I have a very hard time suggesting those upset about it take the high road.

[DanGarion]

Understood, but you have to try to understand that the people around there have been watching a non-stop loop of video showing a fellow citizen get clipped, and the person who did it is still walking free. What more do you need than video evidence? How many murder/manslaughter cases have video evidence? The kid was unarmed. I don't care if it was an accident. I couldn't "accidentally" shoot somebody in the back at point blank range (killing them), and expect to be sitting home the next night eating ho-hos and watching Two and Half Men.

Maybe they should be rioting at the TV stations then or how about protesting IN FRONT of the police station. There is no reason to destroy other people's property, PERIOD.

[st.cronin]

Per that news source, there actually is an investigation proceeding. A wise mob would wait for an actual acquittal before rioting.

[DanGarion]

So, when the enforcement arm of the government goes renegade, you're supposed to respond in a civil manner? Not buying it. Too many times, police officers go relatively unpunished for these kinds of crimes. They rarely face the same charges and sentences that the average person would, had they committed the same acts. Faced with a history of the justice system going light (if even addressing them at all) on these kinds of issues, I have a very hard time suggesting those upset about it take the high road.

The officer fully deserves to be treated as a criminal. But this is also a special matter, that probably serves that the officer is held in solitary because of the circumstances around it. Why don't we see what they actually do before we start torching the city?

1 person fucks up and that constitutes violence? Come on, I'm not buying it, and I bet you the majority isn't either.

[Tekneek]

Maybe they should be rioting at the TV stations then or how about protesting IN FRONT of the police station. There is no reason to destroy other people's property, PERIOD.

I agree. This is just an example of what happens when you get a large group together. Chances are that the crowd getting out of hand ends up having less to do with why they were there and more to do with crowd/mob dynamics.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

So, when the enforcement arm of the government goes renegade, you're supposed to respond in a civil manner? Not buying it. Too many times, police officers go relatively unpunished for these kinds of crimes. They rarely face the same charges and sentences that the average person would, had they committed the same acts. Faced with a history of the justice system going light (if even addressing them at all) on these kinds of issues, I have a very hard time suggesting those upset about it take the high road.

Are you seriously suggesting that the mob's destruction of people's private property, including people who may well agree with them, is justified due to this?

[Tekneek]

The officer fully deserves to be treated as a criminal. But this is also a special matter, that probably serves that the officer is held in solitary because of the circumstances around it. Why don't we see what they actually do before we start torching the city?

Sounds alright to me.

1 person fucks up and that constitutes violence? Come on, I'm not buying it, and I bet you the majority isn't either.

It doesn't really matter what the majority thinks or feels. Civil rights matters should not be up for a vote or subject to popularity concerns. I'm not saying what they are doing is right. I'm just saying that the majority of people, who probably never have to deal with these kinds of incidents, are not really in a position to have a meaningful opinion on the matter. When people are having an emotional response to a criminal act done in the name of the government, there is a good chance that those untouched by the matter will be unable to relate.

[Tekneek]

Are you seriously suggesting that the mob's destruction of people's private property, including people who may well agree with them, is justified due to this?

No.

[Noop]

Looking at some of the shooting footage, it appears the officer didn't intend to shoot the guy...

Are you serious? He murdered that man in cold blood for no apparent reason, there was no reason for him to draw his weapon.

[DeToxRox]

Bet no one protests BORT

[Noop]

A white cop shoots a black person in cold blood with the video being shown over and over? I wish they did the same with Sean Bell in NY and rioted when that happened.

There is a long history of this kind of stuff and unfortunately in order to be heard people resort to rioting because that seems to be the only language people respond too.

[JonInMiddleGA]

that seems to be the only language people respond too.

Not sure that the response is the one they're looking for though.

[DanGarion]

Sounds alright to me.



It doesn't really matter what the majority thinks or feels. Civil rights matters should not be up for a vote or subject to popularity concerns. I'm not saying what they are doing is right. I'm just saying that the majority of people, who probably never have to deal with these kinds of incidents, are not really in a position to have a meaningful opinion on the matter. When people are having an emotional response to a criminal act done in the name of the government, there is a good chance that those untouched by the matter will be unable to relate.
But even many those that are having an "emotional response" shouldn't really. It's automatically a race issue, because the cop is white and the victim is black. That's another problem I have here with the reaction... It bugs me a lot.

[Rizon]

Burning Oakland to the ground wouldn't be a bad thing. Please start with the Coliseum.

[Bad-example]

The evil cop clearly thought he could get away with eliminating one of "them". He just failed to take the video camera and multiple witnesses into account. He certainly deserves capital punishment.

[DanGarion]

Are you serious? He murdered that man in cold blood for no apparent reason, there was no reason for him to draw his weapon.

Are you a police officer? Have you studied their guidelines on use of weapons? Have you interviewed the officer? Have you spoke with those involved?

I personally don't know why he drew his weapon, for all I know he may have thought it was his taser or something else, I don't know, I wasn't there. But from the footage and his reaction this wasn't his intended result. It just really looks like there was no intention on shooting and killing the guy, unless he was just completely unstable and did it.

[Tekneek]

But even many those that are having an "emotional response" shouldn't really. It's automatically a race issue, because the cop is white and the victim is black. That's another problem I have here with the reaction... It bugs me a lot.

Hmmm. Given the history of this nation, you expect people to see it differently? If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

[DanGarion]

Hmmm. Given the history of this nation, you expect people to see it differently? If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

Sorry but I just can't get behind the white person kills black person automatically a race thing, because it's not. I know I've shared this opinion before on here and I still stand by it. Now do I feel that it could be a race thing, yes I do. But I think it's just as bad to automatically pull the race card without knowing anything as it is to be racist. Reverse racism is bad. Hating people just because you assume they might hate you is bad, period.

[Noop]

Are you a police officer? Have you studied their guidelines on use of weapons? Have you interviewed the officer? Have you spoke with those involved?

I personally don't know why he drew his weapon, for all I know he may have thought it was his taser or something else, I don't know, I wasn't there. But from the footage and his reaction this wasn't his intended result. It just really looks like there was no intention on shooting and killing the guy, unless he was just completely unstable and did it.

He thought it was his taser? LOL. Most tasers come with a bright color just to avoid those mishaps but try again. The guy who was on the floor was in no position to threaten anyone physically unless he started biting.

From my point of view it looked like he wanted to shoot the guy. Then again point of views are subjective.

[Tigercat]

I personally don't know why he drew his weapon, for all I know he may have thought it was his taser or something else, I don't know, I wasn't there. But from the footage and his reaction this wasn't his intended result. It just really looks like there was no intention on shooting and killing the guy, unless he was just completely unstable and did it.

I agree. I don't see how anyone can look at that tape, the sitatuion, and the reactions of the officers and not think there are only two possibilities:

1) The officer went batshit insane for a moment (or already is batshit insane) and pulled the trigger.

2) The officer accidentally pulled the trigger

[Tekneek]

I'm certainly wondering whether this incident would've been reported without the video evidence. I wonder how many police officers have been brought to justice in similar incidences without video evidence. Additionally, I wonder how many have had to face justice without the involvement of the news media. Can we reliably depend on other officers to report their buddies for going over the line? I don't honestly know, so I do ask the question. Did the other officers report this man to IA? Why did they attempt to confiscate cellphones from witnesses (as has been reported)? Why did they initially lie about security video of the incident (as has been reported)? How did 5 days pass (if not more) before the officer was even interrogated about the incident by IA or the DA (as has been reported)?

[sabotai]

I personally don't know why he drew his weapon, for all I know he may have thought it was his taser or something else, I don't know, I wasn't there.

And this wouldn't be the first time a cop accidentally killed someone when they grabbed their gun when they meant to grab their taser.

But from the footage and his reaction this wasn't his intended result. It just really looks like there was no intention on shooting and killing the guy, unless he was just completely unstable and did it.

When I first saw the video, that was my response as well. Looks like an accidental shooting to me.

[Tekneek]

Hating people just because you assume they might hate you is bad, period.

Not talking about simple hate, DanGarion. We're talking about a white cop shooting an unarmed black man in the hands of two other officers. It is what it is. You can't erase the history of our nation simply because you would like to. I agree with you. I wish it were truly reasonable to expect as much, but it isn't really.

[Tigercat]

From my point of view it looked like he wanted to shoot the guy. Then again point of views are subjective.

What is his line of thinking then? What possible kind of rational thought process do you think he could have engaged in? Because he had the gun out for more than a couple of seconds, it isn't like he drew and instantaneously shot.

Unless by "wanted to shoot the guy" you mean he suddenly snapped while already holding the gun, I don't see how you can come to that conclusion.

[Buccaneer]

Are you a police officer? Have you studied their guidelines on use of weapons? Have you interviewed the officer? Have you spoke with those involved?



Dude, just look at the color of the skins.

[Tekneek]

When I first saw the video, that was my response as well. Looks like an accidental shooting to me.

It may have been. Leaves me wondering why they tried to collect cellphones from witnesses, initially denied there was security camera footage of the incident, and the guy resigned... Is that what normally happens after accidental shootings? I don't know, but it doesn't seem like a group that has their shit together.

[Tigercat]

It may have been. Leaves me wondering why they tried to collect cellphones from witnesses, initially denied there was security camera footage of the incident, and the guy resigned... Is that what normally happens after accidental shootings? I don't know, but it doesn't seem like a group that has their shit together.

Just because they may have tried to cover it up doesn't mean it wasn't an accident.

Why anyone with a working brain wouldn't have pulled the trigger:
1) There was no reason from a threat level
2) If you were a bad cop that's pissed, it makes more sense to just hit him
3) There were tons of bystanders

Add in the fact that after the shooting the cops look at each other with mutual WTF expressions, including the shooter, and it is really hard to believe it was deliberate.

[samifan24]

I personally don't know why he drew his weapon, for all I know he may have thought it was his taser or something else, I don't know, I wasn't there. But from the footage and his reaction this wasn't his intended result.

I thought the same thing. The cop clearly looks shocked as he stands back up over the body. I read somewhere that the cop drew his taser earlier during the situation and then put it away. I'm betting he grabbed his gun, thought it was his taser and in the heat of the moment, shot the guy. I'm not justifying it, I'm just saying that's what I think happened.

[Tekneek]

Just because they may have tried to cover it up doesn't mean it wasn't an accident.

Of course. However, it certainly taints perception quickly. If the shoe were on the other foot, and Grant was trying to cover up his accidental shooting of a white officer, you can bet they would use that as evidence of malicious intent.

[Bad-example]

Just because they may have tried to cover it up doesn't mean it wasn't an accident.

Most likely it was more about spin control than an actual cover up attempt.

[molson]

Hmmm. Given the history of this nation, you expect people to see it differently? If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

Isn't it a bit of a stretch to go from "history of our nation", to "this cop decides to kill someone just because he's black"?

Cops fuck up sometimes, just like everyone else. Sometimes it costs someone's life (more often, it costs them their own life). Same with doctors. Doctors fuck up and kill people all the time. Nobody freaks out about that because it's not as dramatic.

Criminal charges for accidental police shootings should be RARE, I have no idea if this should fall into that based on the video. But how often are doctors charged criminally for gross negligence on the job? Never - the victim claims a hefty settlement though, which is what should happen here.

But c'mon, this isn't "the enforcement arm of the government gone renegade", it's one police officer. I'm pretty sure this wasn't ordered from the top.

[Noop]

Unless by "wanted to shoot the guy" you mean he suddenly snapped while already holding the gun, I don't see how you can come to that conclusion.

This.... either way this guy better go to jail at minimum but I am hoping he gets put to death.

[Bad-example]

This.... either way this guy better go to jail at minimum but I am hoping he gets put to death.

LOL

[Tekneek]

Isn't it a bit of a stretch to go from "history of our nation", to "this cop decides to kill someone just because he's black"?

Not entirely.

Cops fuck up sometimes, just like everyone else. Sometimes it costs someone's life (more often, it costs them their own life).

With great authority should come great responsibility.

Criminal charges for accidental police shootings should be RARE, I have no idea if this should fall into that based on the video.

It would depend on the circumstances certainly, but I wouldn't let as many off the hook for it. When you are granted the authority to take somebody's life, you should be expected to take tremendous responsibility. I hold police officers, and others in similar roles, to a higher standard than the average person because of the authority they are given.

But c'mon, this isn't "the enforcement arm of the government gone renegade", it's one police officer. I'm pretty sure this wasn't ordered from the top.

Doesn't matter. You are expected to comply with the orders of officers at any given time. You are taught to respect their authority. Then they shoot somebody who did not pose an imminent threat to anybody's life... It becomes difficult to respect that authority and those it represents.

[Tekneek]

This.... either way this guy better go to jail at minimum but I am hoping he gets put to death.

:popcorn: :lol:

[molson]

With great authority should come great responsibility.



Yes, that's why you have to go through lots of training/background checks to be a police officer.

But it's absolutely impossible to guarantee, 100%, that no officer ever kills someone by accident, just like you can't guarantee that even highly-regarded doctors won't kill someone. We're all human.

Maybe some involuntary manslaughter charge is appropriate, depending on the facts, but if you think this is about race/authority/ect, you have more hate in you than you're even accusing this guy of having.

But hey, if thugs in Oakland want to destroy their own city over some shitty cop's mistake, that's their choice I guess.

[Noop]

:popcorn: :lol:

Clue me in I am lost.

[molson]

Not entirely.



So you really think he shot this guy intentionally, solely because of the victim's race?

[Tekneek]

But it's absolutely impossible to guarantee, 100%, that no officer ever kills someone by accident, just like you can't guarantee that even highly-regarded doctors won't kill someone. We're all human.

Sure we are. Being human does not mean we should not have to face punishment for our mistakes, especially when they result in someone else losing their life.

Maybe some involuntary manslaughter charge is appropriate, depending on the facts, but if you think this is about race/authority/ect, you have more hate in you than you're even accusing this guy of having.

I didn't say it was about race/authority/etc. A white cop killed a black man. That covers the race and authority parts of the discussion. Those facts are not up for debate, are they?

[Noop]

So you really think he shot this guy intentionally, solely because of the victim's race?

Wouldn't be the first time in the history of our country.....just saying.

[jeff061]

Some theories are he meant to reach for his Taser.

Now he'd have to be quite a "special" individual to mistake that, but I have a really hard time buying he purposely shot him like that.

In anycase, at the very least he should be brought up on manslaughter, if not murder.

[Tekneek]

So you really think he shot this guy intentionally, solely because of the victim's race?

I don't know. As far as I have read, this former officer has not spoken about his motivations. I can only judge from what has been reported thus far, and accidental shooting is merely a theory. The fact that a white cop killed a black man is not in dispute. It remains a possible theory that he was killed due to his race, until determined otherwise.

[Tekneek]

Clue me in I am lost.

Just made me laugh, and seemed like the kind of comment that would attract a lot of drive-by attention in this thread.

[Noop]

Well I hope he is put on death row if they find out(which they won't) he did it with malicious intent.

[Tekneek]

Well I hope he is put on death row if they find out(which they won't) he did it with malicious intent.

I am of two minds on that matter. He certainly would deserve a death penalty, but would it punish him more to be sent to a maximum security prison and have to live out each day in the general population for the rest of his life?

[JonInMiddleGA]

It remains a possible theory that he was killed due to his race, until determined otherwise.

It'll remain a contention regardless whether it's determined otherwise or not.

[molson]

Wouldn't be the first time in the history of our country.....just saying.

A lot of things have happened in the history of our country.

Blacks have committed violent crimes against whites, in our country's history. That doesn't make it OK for me to be suspicious of all blacks I see walking down the street. And it doesn't even make it OK for me to assume that race is a factor if I am attacked by one, especially if there's zero evidence supporting that.

For some reason though, it's totally OK to make racist assumptions about white people....

[Noop]

A lot of things have happened in the history of our country.

Blacks have committed violent crimes against whites, in our country's history. That doesn't make it OK for me to be suspicious of all blacks I see walking down the street. And it doesn't even make it OK for me to assume that race is a factor if I am attacked by one, especially if there's zero evidence supporting that.

That is true. How often do you hear of a minority shooting and killing white people from a position of power.(Law Enforcement) Just saying....

[Tekneek]

It'll remain a contention regardless whether it's determined otherwise or not.

Which is largely due to the history of this nation.

I can only speak for myself. I am willing to be convinced otherwise, but the actions thus far don't speak well for this officer or the officers there with him. I would have certainly been more likely to buy the "accidental shooting" angle if all of those involved had come clean immediately. They've damaged their credibility through their own actions, which will forever taint their version of events (whether the truth or not).

[molson]

I am of two minds on that matter. He certainly would deserve a death penalty, but would it punish him more to be sent to a maximum security prison and have to live out each day in the general population for the rest of his life?

Are you in favor of capital punishment in any other situation?

[illinifan999]

For some reason though, it's totally OK to make racist assumptions about white people.

Well duh, only white people are racist!

[Tekneek]

Are you in favor of capital punishment in any other situation?

In general, I am not a fan/supporter of the death penalty. Generally, I see killing someone only acceptable as a self defense, and not as a punishment.

I'm not making this decision based on wanting to pay for room and board for hard criminals for the rest of their lives. Just stating my philosophy on the killing of people.

[molson]

Which is largely due to the history of this nation.



That's a weird idea...How many black people have been killed by white people of authority in this country? I know, it's a huge number.

But how many black people have killed white people in this country? Maybe not as many as the first number if you go back before the Civil War. But that's a huge number too. Should I become all upset by that, on a day to day basis, and not trust any black person?

I know, the ratios aren't exactly right here....but the past (and even the present) don't justify more hate. That doesn't solve anything.

[stevew]

I haven't seen this poor of a response to a white man shooting a black man on video since Wild Wild West came out.

[Tekneek]

Well duh, only white people are racist!

Given the history of this nation, it is certainly easier to see racism from whites than from other groups. How many white people were counted as 3/5 of a person and kept as slaves?

[cuervo72]

That is true. How often do you hear of a minority shooting and killing white people from a position of power.(Law Enforcement) Just saying....

Don't know about accidental killings, but they do keep stats for "justifiable homicides":

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/justify.htm

[Tekneek]

I know, the ratios aren't exactly right here....but the past (and even the present) don't justify more hate. That doesn't solve anything.

Indeed. I'm not sure I stated that anything was justified. I was merely attempting to explain where that point of view might come from. Recognizing why people would think the way they do does not mean you are saying it is the best possible way to be.

[Atocep]

Given the history of this nation, it is certainly easier to see racism from whites than from other groups. How many white people were counted as 3/5 of a person and kept as slaves?

While there's nothing wrong with remembering the bad parts of our history in order to help prevent those things from happening again, continuing to dwell on them and citing them as proof of someone's motives today doesn't bring us anywhere closer to finding a solution to the issue.

[Tekneek]

While there's nothing wrong with remembering the bad parts of our history in order to help prevent those things from happening again, continuing to dwell on them and citing them as proof of someone's motives today doesn't bring us anywhere closer to finding a solution to the issue.

This isn't about finding a cure. I was talking about why people might assume that whites are racist when they do something like this. It is because there is a history in this nation, going well beyond slavery, of white supremacy being asserted one way or another. People are not pulling this out of thin air. Trying to pretend that these feelings are not out there is not going to make it disappear.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I would have certainly been more likely to buy the "accidental shooting" angle if all of those involved had come clean immediately.

I'd have to think them foolish at this point to do so, as no matter what happened the truth doesn't seem likely to be believed IMO.

They've damaged their credibility through their own actions, which will forever taint their version of events (whether the truth or not).

Just as some the rioting that follows the death of some thug on a subway several inhibits my ability to get particularly worked up about the original incident.

[illinifan999]

Given the history of this nation, it is certainly easier to see racism from whites than from other groups. How many white people were counted as 3/5 of a person and kept as slaves?

I'm a victim of black on white racism almost everyday. I've been attacked and threatened to be killed solely because I was white. Racism is a problem for every race, and when people really want to get rid of then they'll start holding both the majority and the minority responsible for it. Until that day comes, nothing will ever be solved.

[DanGarion]

Given the history of this nation, it is certainly easier to see racism from whites than from other groups. How many white people were counted as 3/5 of a person and kept as slaves?

You gave first hand experience in being counted as 3/5 of a person?

[Noop]

I'd have to think them foolish at this point to do so, as no matter what happened the truth doesn't seem likely to be believed IMO.



Just as some the rioting that follows the death of some thug on a subway several inhibits my ability to get particularly worked up about the original incident.

How do you know he was a thug? The fact people are rioting doesn't change the fact he was killed in cold blood.

[Tekneek]

I'd have to think them foolish at this point to do so, as no matter what happened the truth doesn't seem likely to be believed IMO.

I was speaking for myself. I will never find it foolish for someone who killed another person to come forward and tell the proper authorities the truth as they know it (with a lawyer present as well).

Just as some the rioting that follows the death of some thug on a subway several inhibits my ability to get particularly worked up about the original incident.

Some thug, eh? I don't know whether the guy was a saint or anything like that, but I haven't seen any evidence that his life needed to be taken away from him. Please elaborate on the justification for that, if you would.

[Lathum]

That is true. How often do you hear of a minority shooting and killing white people from a position of power.(Law Enforcement) Just saying....

So everytime a black thug kills a white cop should all the white people go burn down black neighborhoods and feel like they were justified?

[Tekneek]

You gave first hand experience in being counted as 3/5 of a person?

No. I read the US Constitution.

[Atocep]

This isn't about finding a cure. I was talking about why people might assume that whites are racist when they do something like this.

Which is racism in itself...

It is because there is a history in this nation, going well beyond slavery, of white supremacy being asserted one way or another. People are not pulling this out of thin air. Trying to pretend that these feelings are not out there is not going to make it disappear.

I can't see how simply saying "because there is a history in this nation" makes hate ok.

[st.cronin]

Maybe I'm naive, but I don't think too many cops are closet white supremacists. I think most cops are probably somewhat misanthropic.

[Noop]

So everytime a black thug kills a white cop should all the white people go burn down black neighborhoods and feel like they were justified?

No reason too because the black guy will be in jail and not allowed to walk away from the murder scene.

[Tekneek]

I'm a victim of black on white racism almost everyday. I've been attacked and threatened to be killed solely because I was white. Racism is a problem for every race, and when people really want to get rid of then they'll start holding both the majority and the minority responsible for it. Until that day comes, nothing will ever be solved.

Sounds good to me. Of course, I must ask, are you telling me that you've had people representing the government telling you that you cannot do something simply because of your race? We aren't that many decades away from segregation...

[Tekneek]

I can't see how simply saying "because there is a history in this nation" makes hate ok.

It doesn't make it ok. It simply helps to explain it. I also didn't say it EXCUSES it, either.

[Tekneek]

Maybe I'm naive, but I don't think too many cops are closet white supremacists. I think most cops are probably somewhat misanthropic.

And Mark Fuhrman wasn't a racist either... I'm not saying everybody is, or even that a majority are, but I doubt that there is a 100% absence of it either. Either way, it is not the likelihood of a cop being a racist that causes people to think an incident is another act of oppression from a majority group. It is based almost entirely on events that happened previously and generally out of control of those involved in the new incident.

[illinifan999]

Sounds good to me. Of course, I must ask, are you telling me that you've had people representing the government telling you that you cannot do something simply because of your race? We aren't that many decades away from segregation...

I've had plenty of people telling me I cannot apply for a scholarship because I am not a minority. The majority of the people that I would be competing with for those scholarships didn't have the government telling them they can't do something.

[Noop]

I'm a victim of black on white racism almost everyday. I've been attacked and threatened to be killed solely because I was white. Racism is a problem for every race, and when people really want to get rid of then they'll start holding both the majority and the minority responsible for it. Until that day comes, nothing will ever be solved.

State sanctioned racism is what most minorities(I don't want to use black because other minorities have been discriminated against as well women being the first that come to mind) face. What you faced was terrible...

[Noop]

I've had plenty of people telling me I cannot apply for a scholarship because I am not a minority. The majority of the people that I would be competing with for those scholarships didn't have the government telling them they can't do something.

Oh so your bitter... okay.

[RainMaker]

Are you seriously suggesting that the mob's destruction of people's private property, including people who may well agree with them, is justified due to this?
http://baggas.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/boston.jpg

[Karlifornia]

Jon...your thug on a subway comment was spot on. Good job!

[Tekneek]

No reason too because the black guy will be in jail and not allowed to walk away from the murder scene.

As of June 30, 2007, the incarceration rate in state or federal prison or jail for men was 1,406 per 100,000 residents, for women 136 per 100,000 residents. The rate for white men was 773 per 100,000, for black men 4,618 per 100,000, for Hispanic men 1,747 per 100,000. The rate for white women was 95 per 100,000, for black women 348 per 100,000, and for Hispanic women 146 per 100,000.
Source:
Sabol, William J., PhD, Couture, Heather, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Prison Inmates at Midyear 2007 (Washington, DC: US Department of Justice, June 2008), NCJ221944, p. 7, Table 10.

The data would seem to indicate that minorities are more likely to be incarcerated than whites.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Maybe I'm naive, but I don't think too many cops are closet white supremacists. I think most cops are probably somewhat misanthropic.

Depends on the city. I wouldn't call the cops in my town closet white supremacists only because they are pretty out in the open with their racism.

[Tekneek]

I've had plenty of people telling me I cannot apply for a scholarship because I am not a minority. The majority of the people that I would be competing with for those scholarships didn't have the government telling them they can't do something.

It is hard for me to give much of an opinion on this. Can you detail the scholarships a little more so I can look into this and see what I think about it?

[Lathum]

No reason too because the black guy will be in jail and not allowed to walk away from the murder scene.

I'm sorry, but this is such a predictable response


Aren't you in school to be a lawyer?

Maybe these rioters should let justice take it's course?

I'll rephrase my question.

Lets say a traffic camera captured a black man running over a white police officer. The black man was questioned about the incedent but not taken into custody because it was unsure if he hit him by mistake or on purpose.

Would the white community be justified in rioting?

[illinifan999]

Oh so your bitter... okay.

You're damn right I am. Do you think it is right to judge people based on their race?

[Tekneek]

Would the white community be justified in rioting?

Justified? I'm not entirely sure anyone is "justified" to do that. If it were in the US, it would certainly seem rather random and inexpicable, given the unlikely odds that minorities have a history of treading on the majority.

[Lathum]

As of June 30, 2007, the incarceration rate in state or federal prison or jail for men was 1,406 per 100,000 residents, for women 136 per 100,000 residents. The rate for white men was 773 per 100,000, for black men 4,618 per 100,000, for Hispanic men 1,747 per 100,000. The rate for white women was 95 per 100,000, for black women 348 per 100,000, and for Hispanic women 146 per 100,000.
Source:
Sabol, William J., PhD, Couture, Heather, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Prison Inmates at Midyear 2007 (Washington, DC: US Department of Justice, June 2008), NCJ221944, p. 7, Table 10.

The data would seem to indicate that minorities are more likely to be incarcerated than whites.

what point are you trying to make?

I think we all know there are more minorities in jail.

[RainMaker]

The data would seem to indicate that minorities are more likely to be incarcerated than whites.

And what is the reason for that? I hardly believe it has to do with the amount and type of melanin in their body.

It has more to do with economic and educational situations that most blacks have been placed in. Statistically, the lower your income and the lower your education, the higher your crime rate. There is also a social aspect and culture that makes blacks feel like it's cool to commit crimes.

[Lathum]

Justified? I'm not entirely sure anyone is "justified" to do that. If it were in the US, it would certainly seem rather random and inexpicable, given the unlikely odds that minorities have a history of treading on the majority.

these people in Oakland seemed to think they were justified.

[Noop]

I'm sorry, but this is such a predictable response


Aren't you in school to be a lawyer?

Maybe these rioters should let justice take it's course?

I'll rephrase my question.

Lets say a traffic camera captured a black man running over a white police officer. The black man was questioned about the incedent but not taken into custody because it was unsure if he hit him by mistake or on purpose.

Would the white community be justified in rioting?

Either way it goes the black guy would be in custody no question about it and that's not even giving a bias POV. Also there is a history within the black community of suffering police brutality, I can not say the same is true in the white community.

Eleanor Bumpurs. Michael Stewart…Amadou Diallo…Sean Bell... that list goes on and on.

I start law school in August by the way.

[Noop]

You're damn right I am. Do you think it is right to judge people based on their race?

That's a two way street... more often then not blacks aren't on the receiving end of benefits.

[Tekneek]

these people in Oakland seemed to think they were justified.

And so did the people enacting Jim Crowe laws. Feeling justified when you are doing something wrong does not mean you are actually justified.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Lets say a traffic camera captured a black man running over a white police officer. The black man was questioned about the incedent but not taken into custody because it was unsure if he hit him by mistake or on purpose.

Would the white community be justified in rioting?

I'm not an expert on this or anything, but I would think that anyone (regardless of race) captured on video running over a police officer would be taken into custody even if the police weren't sure if it was a mistake or on purpose.

[Tekneek]

And what is the reason for that? I hardly believe it has to do with the amount and type of melanin in their body.

It has more to do with economic and educational situations that most blacks have been placed in. Statistically, the lower your income and the lower your education, the higher your crime rate. There is also a social aspect and culture that makes blacks feel like it's cool to commit crimes.

Did I say it was because of their race? No. I merely shared some data.

[Tekneek]

what point are you trying to make?

I think we all know there are more minorities in jail.

The data supports the claim that Noop made. Are you saying it doesn't?

[illinifan999]

It is hard for me to give much of an opinion on this. Can you detail the scholarships a little more so I can look into this and see what I think about it?

Go on any scholarship search engine. You can literally find thousands of scholarships that are for minorities only. I did a term paper on the reverse discrimination in higher education. I wasn't able to find any scholarships where one of the requirements was that you had to be white. There were two that were worth $500 (essentially a book scholarship) that faced such heavy criticism that they are no longer offered. These scholarships for minorities sometimes are worth an entire college tuition.

Here's one scholarship search site. hxxps://www.collegedata.com/cs/search/scholar/scholar_search_tmpl.jhtml

You can see where you can select your ethnicity or heritage. There is no white option. However, if you click on Black/African-American and say you're a male and from Illinois. 263 scholarships show up. That's one scholarship site that I googled and searched in about a minute. For my paper I went to I think 8 different scholarship search sites and it was the same thing.

[JonInMiddleGA]

How do you know he was a thug?

The initial police response was to youths fighting on a train, he was part of the group that was removed from the train. You're are definitely free to assume that he was an innocent bystander, I find that to be unlikely.

The fact people are rioting doesn't change the fact he was killed in cold blood.

It doesn't change the fact he was killed. It does greatly impact my ability to be remotely as upset about that death as I am disgusted by the fact that the subsequent mob wasn't napalmed into an unrecognizable ash heap.

[illinifan999]

That's a two way street... more often then not blacks aren't on the receiving end of benefits.

Do you feel that it is right for someone to be denied an opportunity because of the color of their skin?

[Tekneek]

You can see where you can select your ethnicity or heritage. There is no white option. However, if you click on Black/African-American and say you're a male and from Illinois. 263 scholarships show up. That's one scholarship site that I googled and searched in about a minute. For my paper I went to I think 8 different scholarship search sites and it was the same thing.

I don't like it.

However, given that somebody in this thread already stated that minorities are incarcerated at higher rates than whites because of their level of education, it is clear why these kinds of things are needed.

[Noop]

The initial police response was to youths fighting on a train, he was part of the group that was removed from the train. You're are definitely free to assume that he was an innocent bystander, I find that to be unlikely.



It doesn't change the fact he was killed. It does greatly impact my ability to be remotely as upset about that death as I am disgusted by the fact that the subsequent mob wasn't napalmed into an unrecognizable ash heap.

:nono:

[Lathum]

Either way it goes the black guy would be in custody no question about it and that's not even giving a bias POV. Also there is a history within the black community of suffering police brutality, I can not say the same is true in the white community.


This is in no way my personal opinion, but maybe black people are treated this way because people see them rioting and destroying things, which gives the perception of a "dangerous and uneducated" group?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Do you feel that it is right for someone to be denied an opportunity because of the color of their skin?

Only if they're white.

[Tekneek]

It doesn't change the fact he was killed. It does greatly impact my ability to be remotely as upset about that death as I am disgusted by the fact that the subsequent mob wasn't napalmed into an unrecognizable ash heap.

Cool. Let's kill more people. How many should die?

[JonInMiddleGA]

:nono:

Wag if you like, but you'll never have anyone be more honest with you than I just was.

[Tekneek]

This is in no way my personal opinion, but maybe black people are treated this way because people see them rioting and destroying things, which gives the perception of a "dangerous and uneducated" group?

Not sure that white people need a riot in 2009 in response to an incident like this to hold such an opinion. That sad view of minorities has been around for longer than this nation has existed.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Cool. Let's kill more people. How many should die?

We could start with that particular mob, the rest we'll just take on a case by case basis m'kay.

[Noop]

Do you feel that it is right for someone to be denied an opportunity because of the color of their skin?

No. That's why I dislike people like Al Sharpton and his elk for stopping people from giving scholarships to white only students. I am not a fan of affirmative action either although I know why it exists. You should be entitled to a scholarship if you meet the criteria set forth by the people giving it away. If someone wants to make a white only scholarship then that is their right and no one should or can complain. You got the shaft in that situation and the guys who threaten you are stupid assholes and ignorant.

[Noop]

Wag if you like, but you'll never have anyone be more honest with you than I just was.

You want honest? If they were white you wouldn't say that shit.

[Bad-example]

If the cop were black and the victim white, I have no trouble believing the events following would be no different, except the riot wouldn't have happened and this thread wouldn't exist.

[st.cronin]

People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along? Can we stop making it, making it horrible for the older people and the kids?...It’s just not right. It’s not right. It’s not, it’s not going to change anything. We’ll, we’ll get our justice....Please, we can get along here. We all can get along. I mean, we’re all stuck here for a while. Let’s try to work it out. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to work it out.

[Noop]

This is in no way my personal opinion, but maybe black people are treated this way because people see them rioting and destroying things, which gives the perception of a "dangerous and uneducated" group?

That's what is portrayed but I know its not true. It will take time to overcome those perceptions which exist throughout the world as well. (That's my observation at least)

[Warhammer]

As of June 30, 2007, the incarceration rate in state or federal prison or jail for men was 1,406 per 100,000 residents, for women 136 per 100,000 residents. The rate for white men was 773 per 100,000, for black men 4,618 per 100,000, for Hispanic men 1,747 per 100,000. The rate for white women was 95 per 100,000, for black women 348 per 100,000, and for Hispanic women 146 per 100,000.
Source:
Sabol, William J., PhD, Couture, Heather, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Prison Inmates at Midyear 2007 (Washington, DC: US Department of Justice, June 2008), NCJ221944, p. 7, Table 10.

The data would seem to indicate that minorities are more likely to be incarcerated than whites.

At least where I live, it is because minorities commit more of the crimes. I've seen more crimes commited by minorities in my area than by whites. Most of the crimes I have seen commited have been assaults. In my neighborhood, most of the break-ins are by minority kids (both hispanic and black). Look at the crime demographics and most of it is in the minority areas.

I think the problem is not race, the problem is class and upbringing. I know plenty of minorities here that have not done anything wrong, but most of those came from stable homes.

Did I say it was because of their race? No. I merely shared some data.

No, you just said that minorities are more likely to be incarcerated than whites. Which wouldn't need to be mentioned unless you were saying it was about race.

[Noop]

If the cop were black and the victim white, I have no trouble believing the events following would be no different, except the riot wouldn't have happened and this thread wouldn't exist.

If the cop was black and did it I would hope he is put on death row as well. The riot wouldn't have happened but if he was allowed to walk away then a protest and a few letters to the mayor would have made sure his ass was in jail by sundown.

[JonInMiddleGA]

You want honest? If they were white you wouldn't say that shit.

Seems likely you'd be surprised.

Off the top of my head I'm pretty sure I clearly advocated the same response to, just for one example, the virtually all white protesters at the economic summit in the northwest a few years back.

[Bad-example]

No. That's why I dislike people like Al Sharpton and his elk...

Dump on Big Al if you want, but the poor elk doesn't deserve it.

[RainMaker]

Go on any scholarship search engine. You can literally find thousands of scholarships that are for minorities only. I did a term paper on the reverse discrimination in higher education. I wasn't able to find any scholarships where one of the requirements was that you had to be white. There were two that were worth $500 (essentially a book scholarship) that faced such heavy criticism that they are no longer offered. These scholarships for minorities sometimes are worth an entire college tuition.

Here's one scholarship search site. hxxps://www.collegedata.com/cs/search/scholar/scholar_search_tmpl.jhtml

You can see where you can select your ethnicity or heritage. There is no white option. However, if you click on Black/African-American and say you're a male and from Illinois. 263 scholarships show up. That's one scholarship site that I googled and searched in about a minute. For my paper I went to I think 8 different scholarship search sites and it was the same thing.

Look at it this way. When this country finally got around to giving blacks equal rights in this country, they had no money, no business, no land, and no education. They were thrust into a world with severe disadvantages that they still face today. It's like going into a football game, spotting the other team 40 points and expecting the other team to compete.

So is it really horrible that they make specific scholarships for minorities so that they may have a chance to catch up?

[JonInMiddleGA]

People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along?

Nope.

Thanks for playing though.

[Tekneek]

No, you just said that minorities are more likely to be incarcerated than whites. Which wouldn't need to be mentioned unless you were saying it was about race.

I said the rate is certainly higher, making it more likely. Are you questioning the data?

[Noop]

Warhammer I wrote a paper where I argued that racism is stupid and that black and white people have alot in common with each other(class wise) then they do with the rich or power elite.

[Noop]

Seems likely you'd be surprised.

Off the top of my head I'm pretty sure I clearly advocated the same response to, just for one example, the virtually all white protesters at the economic summit in the northwest a few years back.

Jon you maybe right... but the impression I get seems to be opposite.

[RainMaker]

This is in no way my personal opinion, but maybe black people are treated this way because people see them rioting and destroying things, which gives the perception of a "dangerous and uneducated" group?

One man's riot is another man's Boston Tea Party. It's all a matter of how you perceive the events and how they affect you.

[Noop]

One man's riot is another man's Boston Tea Party. It's all a matter of how you perceive the events and how they affect you.

:+1:

[illinifan999]

So is it really horrible that they make specific scholarships for minorities so that they may have a chance to catch up?

Yes. It's exactly what everyone preaches against. It's denying someone an equal opportunity at a benefit because of the color of their skin. Two wrongs do not make a right.

[Atocep]

One man's riot is another man's Boston Tea Party. It's all a matter of how you perceive the events and how they affect you.

Unless I'm mistaken, the only thing damaged in the boston tea party was the tea and one lock.

[Warhammer]

This is in no way my personal opinion, but maybe black people are treated this way because people see them rioting and destroying things, which gives the perception of a "dangerous and uneducated" group?

Quite honestly, in my area, this goes a long way towards perpetuating things. Everytime there is a huge fight at a school, its at the minority schools in the area. Probably 90% of the weapons at school incidents are at the minority schools or concern minority students.

There was an incident here last year where something like 8 people were killed in a house. It was the result of a guy having an argument with his brother over a coat (could be wrong about the coat, but I think that was what it was about). Guy comes back with a gun, shoots his brother, and then kills the rest of the people in the house because they were witnesses, this included something like 4 kids.

You have incidents like that in an area, and at some point, it goes from being anecdotes, to a trend, to a belief in the way people act. I'm not saying this is right, but this is exactly how perceptions are made.

The fact of the matter is that there are some universal truths out there that are true regardless of other factors. Murder, malicious intent, hurting people for the sake of hurting people, are all things that are wrong. I don't care what your background is, what your family situation is, you treat people the way you want to be treated. You want respect, give respect. You want love, you give love. You want understanding, understand.

[DanGarion]

Look at it this way. When this country finally got around to giving blacks equal rights in this country, they had no money, no business, no land, and no education. They were thrust into a world with severe disadvantages that they still face today. It's like going into a football game, spotting the other team 40 points and expecting the other team to compete.

So is it really horrible that they make specific scholarships for minorities so that they may have a chance to catch up?

How about this, suck it up, change the attitude that everyone is out to get you, and try harder... For F*cks Sake!

[RainMaker]

How about this, suck it up, change the attitude that everyone is out to get you, and try harder... For F*cks Sake!

Easy for you to say. You aren't the team down 40-0.

[DanGarion]

Yes. It's exactly what everyone preaches against. It's denying someone an equal opportunity at a benefit because of the color of their skin. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Black, white, brown, whatever, it's racism if you don't accept them all.

[DanGarion]

Easy for you to say. You aren't the team down 40-0.

You know what I was on a 0-17 baseball team that lost many of it's games 1-10 when I was high school we didn't blame it on the other team and we still continued to try to win.

[Warhammer]

I said the rate is certainly higher, making it more likely. Are you questioning the data?

Not at all, I completely believe the data, I am questioning your reason for bringing it into the argument if you're not saying that there is any bias in the system.

[Noop]

How about this, suck it up, change the attitude that everyone is out to get you, and try harder... For F*cks Sake!

JeBus Thrist you're clueless.

[Bad-example]

JeBus Thrist you're clueless.

Priceless.

[Noop]

Priceless.

Just so you know I meant to spell it Jebus Thrist.

[RainMaker]

You know what I was on a 0-17 baseball team that lost many of it's games 1-10 when I was high school we didn't blame it on the other team and we still continued to try to win.

It has nothing to do with blaming people or trying harder. It's about one race that put the other race at a severe disadvantage in society. Then that race complains when people want to help level the playing field a bit.

When the economic and educational gaps between whites and blacks are fixed, I would be against minority scholarships as much as you are.

[Bad-example]

Just so you know I meant to spell it Jebus Thrist.

I knew ;)

[illinifan999]

When the economic and educational gaps between whites and blacks are fixed, I would be against minority scholarships as much as you are.

There are poor people and stupid people of every race.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Seems likely you'd be surprised.

Off the top of my head I'm pretty sure I clearly advocated the same response to, just for one example, the virtually all white protesters at the economic summit in the northwest a few years back.

Are you talking about the Battle of Seattle back in '99? Protests by leftists, anarchists, labor unions, environmentalists, etc.? Yeah, I can totally see you jizzing in your pants over the thoughts of napalming them. :rolleyes:

[RainMaker]

There are poor people and stupid people of every race.

So your belief is that blacks are poorer and less educated because of the type of melanin in their body? Nothing to do with not having access to land, jobs, schools, or money for the first 200 years of the country's existence?

[RainMaker]

The sad thing about this issue is that I really don't think it had anything to do with race. It should be an issue with the police. Their incompetence, callousness, and cover-up is what people should be upset about.

Most of these scenarios have little to do with race. They are about a police department that is hell bent on protecting their own, even if their own happens to fuck up. Cut out that unquestioned loyalty between cops and these instance will dramatically drop.

There is absolutely no reason this guy should be walking the streets.

[Klinglerware]

There are poor people and stupid people of every race.

Meh. So long as legacy admissions policies are in place (which disproportionately benefit rich white people since old money families have the longest track record of college attendance in our country), I really don't mind preferential admissions for lower income whites and minorities.

Incidentally, you are wrong about white guys getting the shaft in the college admissions process-you just need to know where to look. At historically black colleges, white applicants are more likely to be accepted and get better aid packages than black applicants with similar academic credentials. As an aside, many colleges are hurting for male applicants these days, especially at small liberal arts schools (which tend to attract more women). So you stand a good chance of getting in there. It's all about supply and demand.

[Tekneek]

Not at all, I completely believe the data, I am questioning your reason for bringing it into the argument if you're not saying that there is any bias in the system.

It was in support of the statement that I quoted from Noop.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Are you talking about the Battle of Seattle back in '99?

Has it really been that long?

Hasn't there been another similar deal since then though?

[Klinglerware]

The sad thing about this issue is that I really don't think it had anything to do with race. It should be an issue with the police. Their incompetence, callousness, and cover-up is what people should be upset about.

Most of these scenarios have little to do with race. They are about a police department that is hell bent on protecting their own, even if their own happens to fuck up. Cut out that unquestioned loyalty between cops and these instance will dramatically drop.

There is absolutely no reason this guy should be walking the streets.


I agree, though there might be an element of race at play, the fundamental issue is incompetence.

I do wonder though if the real issue is inadequate funding. No money for salaries attracts lower quality recruits. No money for training results in badly trained cops who were low quality to begin with.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Is it ironic that MLK's birthday is coming up soon? Whatever happened to that guy? He sure gets quoted a lot, and everyone seems to respect him, but what ever happened to his spirit?

[Buccaneer]

Noop, you're in law school, right?

[Glengoyne]

That is true. How often do you hear of a minority shooting and killing white people from a position of power.(Law Enforcement) Just saying....

I'll bet it happens more often than people take to the streets to riot over it.

The assignation of a motive is pretty ridiculous here. It looks like an accident, the guy's reaction. He resigned...probably because of what this has done to him personally. He took a life, he is screwed up even if he isn't prosecuted...which I'm guessing he will be. Most likely manslaughter...he'll probably plead it down.

[Noop]

Noop, you're in law school, right?

No I start in August.

[DanGarion]

JeBus Thrist you're clueless.
Of course I am, I'm a 30 something white male, I know nothing about the travesties and tribulations of anyone that's been discriminated...

[DanGarion]

Is it ironic that MLK's birthday is coming up soon? Whatever happened to that guy? He sure gets quoted a lot, and everyone seems to respect him, but what ever happened to his spirit?
I think some bigot killed him.

[DanGarion]

Most likely manslaughter...he'll probably plead it down.

And then once again people will riot, and destroy other peoples dreams and properties.

[Lathum]

It has nothing to do with blaming people or trying harder. It's about one race that put the other race at a severe disadvantage in society. Then that race complains when people want to help level the playing field a bit.



when does this stop becoming a reason and start becoming an excuse?

[DanGarion]

when does this stop becoming a reason and start becoming an excuse?

You mean those aren't the same thing?

[molson]

It has nothing to do with blaming people or trying harder. It's about one race that put the other race at a severe disadvantage in society. Then that race complains when people want to help level the playing field a bit.



I'm a white guy, but I had nothing to do with slavery. Not even segregation.

And LOL at this not having to do with blame.

We're all together here, spinning around on the same planet. Some people just want to separate and divide.

[RainMaker]

when does this stop becoming a reason and start becoming an excuse?

Probably for generations upon generations. Wealth is not something that fluctuates greatly from generation to generation. Bill Gates grandchild will have better odds at being a success than the grandchild of a poor family living in a trailer park. But perhaps in 10-20 generations down the line, that gap will shrink.

It's easy to have your team spotted 40 points and then say "well the game has started and all things are equal, so you have no excuse not to beat us". It will probably take hundreds of years before the gap is closed. Just as it will take hundreds of years for the family in the trailer park to close the gap on the millionaire investment banker.

People do use it as an excuse at times and that is wrong. There are too many people who just want a handout or excuse for failure. But it is also an aspect of society that is a reality. Take a look at the schools in the rich white suburbs vs the schools in the poor black neighborhoods. Ask yourself if they each have the same opportunity. As long as there is that massive gap in opportunity, I have no problem with giving then a helping hand.

[RainMaker]

Unless I'm mistaken, the only thing damaged in the boston tea party was the tea and one lock.

That tea adjusted to our times is worth almost $2 million dollars.

[molson]

Probably for generations upon generations. Wealth is not something that fluctuates greatly from generation to generation. Bill Gates grandchild will have better odds at being a success than the grandchild of a poor family living in a trailer park. But perhaps in 10-20 generations down the line, that gap will shrink.

It's easy to have your team spotted 40 points and then say "well the game has started and all things are equal, so you have no excuse not to beat us". It will probably take hundreds of years before the gap is closed. Just as it will take hundreds of years for the family in the trailer park to close the gap on the millionaire investment banker.

People do use it as an excuse at times and that is wrong. There are too many people who just want a handout or excuse for failure. But it is also an aspect of society that is a reality. Take a look at the schools in the rich white suburbs vs the schools in the poor black neighborhoods. Ask yourself if they each have the same opportunity. As long as there is that massive gap in opportunity, I have no problem with giving then a helping hand.

Not all of white people are entitled, believe it or not. Not all of us grew up in the "rich white suburbs". In fact, most of us didn't.

Why not extend a "helping hand" based on class instead of race?

[RainMaker]

Yes. It's exactly what everyone preaches against. It's denying someone an equal opportunity at a benefit because of the color of their skin. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Let me ask you this. Are you opposed to scholarships for lower income families who wouldn't normally be able to afford college? How about the scholarships for disabled people? Or children of the military?

Those are denying an equal opportunity based on economic status, disability, or family history.

[RainMaker]

Not all of white people are entitled, believe it or not. Not all of us grew up in the "rich white suburbs". In fact, most of us didn't.

Why not extend a "helping hand" based on class instead of race?

Those white people had much more opportunity than blacks did at one time.

[Atocep]

That tea adjusted to our times is worth almost $2 million dollars.


Ok...

There's still a gigantic difference between the boston tea party and running down the street torching random cars and shit.

[molson]

Those white people had much more opportunity than blacks did at one time.

What do you mean "at one time"? Their ancestors?

[RainMaker]

Ok...

There's still a gigantic difference between the boston tea party and running down the street torching random cars and shit.

Would it have made you feel better if the damage wasn't random and instead a bunch of cop cars or the police station itself?

[RainMaker]

What do you mean "at one time"? Their ancestors?

Yes.

[Atocep]

Would it have made you feel better if the damage wasn't random and instead a bunch of cop cars or the police station itself?

Personally, I think rioting over something like this does more harm for whatever your cause is than good. That's not the point, though. The point is to compare any sort of rioting where idiots are running around trashing random shit to the Boston Tea party is either a huge stretch or just ignorance.

[molson]

Yes.

That's the kind of thinking that brought us here to begin with - that certain people are entitled to things, or are inferior, because of nothing more than their bloodline.

America didn't invent slavery. Many (if not all) blacks are descendants of slave owners in Africa. Nobody can document a bloodline of pure morality and good deeds. But who cares? That not what we should be about.

[RainMaker]

That's the kind of thinking that brought us here to begin with - that certain people are entitled to things, or are inferior, because of nothing more than their bloodline.

America didn't invent slavery. Many (if not all) blacks are descendants of slave owners in Africa. Nobody can document a bloodline of pure morality and good deeds. But who cares?

What are you talking about? Are you trying to tell me that the great great grandparents of the poor white people you mention didn't have more rights than the great great grandparents of the average black person?

You tried to make a comparision between poor white people and black people. The comparision is silly considering both ended up in that position by completely different avenues.

[molson]

You tried to make a comparision between poor white people and black people. The comparision is silly considering both ended up in that position by completely different avenues.

I'm talking about today.

The smart black kid isn't dumber than he would otherwise be because his grandfather didn't have access to schools.

Sure, the fact that his great grandparents faced certain challenges may have trickled down to him in some ways. But that's illustrated in class. Why target race? Is it just about payback?

Who cares how the poor got poor? And there's more than two ways to poverty.

[RainMaker]

Personally, I think rioting over something like this does more harm for whatever your cause is than good. That's not the point, though. The point is to compare any sort of rioting where idiots are running around trashing random shit to the Boston Tea party is either a huge stretch or just ignorance.

How so? Both destruction of private property over a perceived oppression by people in power. At least the recent riots were over a killing and not a tax increase.

But my statement was never to compare them. It was to say that you may perceive the destruction of private property during the Boston Tea Party to be heroic. The people who feel oppressed may feel the same way about their destruction of property. Same goes for any riot.

[molson]

How so? Both destruction of private property over a perceived oppression by people in power. At least the recent riots were over a killing and not a tax increase.

But my statement was never to compare them. It was to say that you may perceive the destruction of private property during the Boston Tea Party to be heroic. The people who feel oppressed may feel the same way about their destruction of property. Same goes for any riot.

Maybe they feel heroic. At some level I can understand that trap, the emotions involved, the history, the struggle against authority.

But that's what it is, a trap. There's better outlets for this energy (even riotous energy) than one incompetent cop.

This sets the whole thing back, which is sad.

[RainMaker]

I'm talking about today.

The smart black kid isn't dumber than he would otherwise be because his grandfather didn't have access to schools.

Sure, the fact that his great grandparents faced certain challenges may have trickled down to him. But that's illustrated in class. Why target race? Is it just about payback?

I think class and race here are interlinked. When civil rights finally came to blacks, they were all lower class. That trickles down a lot. As I said, the grandson of Bill Gates is going to have more opportunity than yours or my grandson. Just in the same way that the grandsons of whites had more opportunities than the grandsons of blacks.

You can use a similar argument with women. Not necessarily based on class, but other factors. What is the reason that there are so few women running major companies? So few women in Congress. Because when they were given equal rights, they had to build there way up from nothing. It takes generations to do that.

[Atocep]

How so? Both destruction of private property over a perceived oppression by people in power. At least the recent riots were over a killing and not a tax increase.

But my statement was never to compare them. It was to say that you may perceive the destruction of private property during the Boston Tea Party to be heroic. The people who feel oppressed may feel the same way about their destruction of property. Same goes for any riot.

Read your history. There was much more to it than rioting over a tea tax.

Its also very debatable as to whether or not you could consider the east india trade company a private entity.

[RainMaker]

Maybe they feel heroic. At some level I can understand that trap, the emotions involved, the history, the struggle against authority.

But that's what it is, a trap. There's better outlets for this energy (even riotous energy) than one incompetent cop.

This sets the whole thing back, which is sad.

I agree with you. The whole thing was stupid. They should have protested peacefully outside the police station. Got the media attention they wanted and gotten a solution out of it that is fair.

But that video is bad. I can imagine there is a lot of emotion involved in this mess. There is also bad history between city cops and blacks.

[RainMaker]

Read your history. There was much more to it than rioting over a tea tax.

Its also very debatable as to whether or not you could consider the east india trade company a private entity.

Taxation without represenation, oppression, etc. We're still talking about a human life vs money and politics.

The Tea Party wasn't as noble as you think it is.

[st.cronin]

What is the reason that there are so few women running major companies? So few women in Congress.

Huh?

[Atocep]

Taxation without represenation, oppression, etc. We're still talking about a human life vs money and politics.

The Tea Party wasn't as noble as you think it is.

I never said it was noble. I said there was a difference between what they did and riots where random people's property is destroyed.

Most people admit that the Tea Party was counterproductive to what they were trying to accomplish. If you want to compare riots today to the tea party, that's where comparisons should start and end.

[RainMaker]

I never said it was noble. I said there was a difference between what they did and riots where random people's property is destroyed.

Most people admit that the Tea Party was counterproductive to what they were trying to accomplish. If you want to compare riots today to the tea party, that's where comparisons should start and end.

So what's the big difference here? That you were taught that one was heroic and the other unabashed vandalism?

[illinifan999]

So your belief is that blacks are poorer and less educated because of the type of melanin in their body? Nothing to do with not having access to land, jobs, schools, or money for the first 200 years of the country's existence?

How you got that out of my quote I really have no idea. I said that there are poor and stupid people of EVERY race. So why are the poor and stupid minorities given an upper hand? This is simple discrimination based on the color of someone's skin. And that is wrong.

"I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character"

Somehow I don't think that scholarships that discriminate based on race were a part of MLK's dream.

[Tekneek]

People do use it as an excuse at times and that is wrong. There are too many people who just want a handout or excuse for failure. But it is also an aspect of society that is a reality. Take a look at the schools in the rich white suburbs vs the schools in the poor black neighborhoods. Ask yourself if they each have the same opportunity. As long as there is that massive gap in opportunity, I have no problem with giving then a helping hand.

As a local example... In the very same county where there are music programs with hundreds of participants, luxury equipment trucks, the best uniforms that money can buy, luxury buses, etc, there are also music programs where they can barely afford to put 20 members through the program. Any guess as to what the demographics are like in the differing parts of the very same county?

[DanGarion]

I'm a white guy, but I had nothing to do with slavery. Not even segregation.

And LOL at this not having to do with blame.

We're all together here, spinning around on the same planet. Some people just want to separate and divide.

+1

I don't have anything to do with those things either. Hell over 60% of the blacks around today don't even have 1st or even 2nd hand experience of it.

[DanGarion]

How so? Both destruction of private property over a perceived oppression by people in power. At least the recent riots were over a killing and not a tax increase.

But my statement was never to compare them. It was to say that you may perceive the destruction of private property during the Boston Tea Party to be heroic. The people who feel oppressed may feel the same way about their destruction of property. Same goes for any riot.

Come on, you can't compare the Boston Tea Party, to a riot because ONE person got killed. Completely different scenarios.

[Tekneek]

Come on, you can't compare the Boston Tea Party, to a riot because ONE person got killed. Completely different scenarios.

Indeed. Since the Boston Tea Party had nothing to do with a life being taken away, and was just part of a growing dispute over taxation. It was a direct response to the Tea Act of 1773, after building anger from Townshend Acts of 1767 and Stamp Act of 1765... If it had anything to do with just one life being taken, it probably would've been much worse.

Of odd note in the Boston Tea Party, is that the ships were going to return to England. However, the decision was made to block the harbor and not let the ships leave until they were unloaded. Imagine the reception this kind of action would get today... I also meant to add that the Tea Act only hurt businesses that imported Tea and had to sell their imported tea at higher prices than the East India Tea would be sold. This was entirely a business dispute over which ones were getting the best favors from government. An example today might be if the responsible community banks (that needed no bailout) started destroying property of the big banks, who are obviously getting favoritism from the government that may grant them a competitive advantage.

[DanGarion]

Indeed. Since the Boston Tea Party had nothing to do with a life being taken away, and was just part of a growing dispute over taxation. It was a direct response to the Tea Act of 1773, after building anger from Townshend Acts of 1767 and Stamp Act of 1765... If it had anything to do with just one life being taken, it probably would've been much worse.

Of odd note in the Boston Tea Party, is that the ships were going to return to England. However, the decision was made to block the harbor and not let the ships leave until they were unloaded. Imagine the reception this kind of action would get today... I also meant to add that the Tea Act only hurt businesses that imported Tea and had to sell their imported tea at higher prices than the East India Tea would be sold. This was entirely a business dispute over which ones were getting the best favors from government. An example today might be if the responsible community banks (that needed no bailout) started destroying property of the big banks, who are obviously getting favoritism from the government that may grant them a competitive advantage.
Wasn't the point I was trying to make originally, but you are right.

[Oilers9911]

This.... either way this guy better go to jail at minimum but I am hoping he gets put to death.

Wow, you're ridiculous. Why don't you wait for the facts before you get the noose out. Christ.

[TroyF]

Quite honestly, in my area, this goes a long way towards perpetuating things. Everytime there is a huge fight at a school, its at the minority schools in the area. Probably 90% of the weapons at school incidents are at the minority schools or concern minority students.

There was an incident here last year where something like 8 people were killed in a house. It was the result of a guy having an argument with his brother over a coat (could be wrong about the coat, but I think that was what it was about). Guy comes back with a gun, shoots his brother, and then kills the rest of the people in the house because they were witnesses, this included something like 4 kids.

You have incidents like that in an area, and at some point, it goes from being anecdotes, to a trend, to a belief in the way people act. I'm not saying this is right, but this is exactly how perceptions are made.

The fact of the matter is that there are some universal truths out there that are true regardless of other factors. Murder, malicious intent, hurting people for the sake of hurting people, are all things that are wrong. I don't care what your background is, what your family situation is, you treat people the way you want to be treated. You want respect, give respect. You want love, you give love. You want understanding, understand.


Spooner St, right? I saw the First 48 on A&E talking about this one. Simply an amazing story.

I go to Memphis a few times a year for my company and it's amazing how bad the murder rate is there.

[Lathum]

Well I hope he is put on death row if they find out(which they won't) he did it with malicious intent.

so what you are saying is anyone who commits murder with malicious intent should be put to death?

[Noop]

Wow, you're ridiculous. Why don't you wait for the facts before you get the noose out. Christ.

No more ridiculous then some of the other posters in this thread.

[Noop]

so what you are saying is anyone who commits murder with malicious intent should be put to death?

If you purposely plan to kill someone and do so; you should be put to death. If it was in a heat of the moment then no; life without parole should be enough.

[Lathum]

No more ridiculous then some of the other posters in this thread.

is that a yes?

( i don't necessarily disagree with that POV)

[Lathum]

If you purposely plan to kill someone and do so; you should be put to death. If it was in a heat of the moment then no; life without parole should be enough.

well watching that video couldn't it be interpreted to ba more in the heat of the moment and less planned?

[DanGarion]

No more ridiculous then some of the other posters in this thread.

You mean like the ones that can't understand that the majority of white people in the US aren't racist?

[Noop]

You mean like the ones that can't understand that the majority of white people in the US aren't racist?

Who is saying that?

[Noop]

well watching that video couldn't it be interpreted to ba more in the heat of the moment and less planned?

You are correct. I was a bit to passionate with my statement because I can not understand why he chose to do what he did.

[Lathum]

You are correct. I was a bit to passionate with my statement because I can not understand why he chose to do what he did.

Fair enough.

For what its worth I think we need to be way harsher with the death penalty. I am a firm believer in eye for an eye.

IMO it's absurd, regardless of what color you are, that you can kill someone and then live off the state for 30 years getting free meals, education, boarding, excersise, etc...

There are literaly millions of people who commit crims on purpose so they can be in prison instead of a shelter, etc...

I say put the money they spend on these worthless members of society into educating youths so maybe they don't make the mistakes others have.

[Lathum]

to harsh?

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

There are literaly millions of people who commit crims on purpose so they can be in prison instead of a shelter, etc...


Literally millions????

[Lathum]

Literally millions????

ok, millions may be a stretch, but there are alot

[Lathum]

dola- I would love to start a poll about how people feel about the death penalty, but I probably know how that would end.

[Tekneek]

There are literaly millions of people who commit crims on purpose so they can be in prison instead of a shelter, etc...

Prove it. I've heard this and read this over the years, but never seen anybody back it up with facts.

[Buccaneer]

No more ridiculous then some of the other posters in this thread.

Except it is coming from someone admitted to a law school.

[Lathum]

Prove it. I've heard this and read this over the years, but never seen anybody back it up with facts.

How can you possibly produce a stat based on someones intentions?

If you don't think there are people who commit crimes to go to prison intentionaly you are incredibly naive.

[Tekneek]

How can you possibly produce a stat based on someones intentions?

If it is a fact, there should be some method of measuring it. How do you know they are doing it if you don't know they are doing it?

If you don't think there are people who commit crimes to go to prison intentionaly you are incredibly naive.

So, we should shape death penalty policy based around some belief that people commit serious crimes in order to get free room and board for the rest of their life without any evidence to support it? I am the one who doesn't get it? If it is so obvious, there has to be some data out there that proves it.

[Noop]

Except it is coming from someone admitted to a law school.

What difference does that make? I have seen it mentioned a few times in this thread about me being in law school. I gave my feelings on the matter, I can not see how that can be judge by me going to law school or being a law student.

I am positive that I have about a hundred or more stupid statements left in my life.

[SFL Cat]

OMG, the truth is out...all us white people might as well quit pretending and pull the white hoods and robes out of those hiding places.

[Buccaneer]

What difference does that make? I have seen it mentioned a few times in this thread about me being in law school. I gave my feelings on the matter, I can not see how that can be judge by me going to law school or being a law student.

I am positive that I have about a hundred or more stupid statements left in my life.

And so do the rest of us, including me. But as a professional on the bar, you can't make stupid statements and must act and react according to the rule of law.

[Noop]

And so do the rest of us, including me. But as a professional on the bar, you can't make stupid statements and must act and react according to the rule of law.

Understood.

[path12]

An anecdote.

My oldest friend is a regional director for a Fortune 500 corporation. Workaholic -- he's probably averaged 60-70 hours a week for the past 20 years. Makes a damn good salary and earns it. Lives in a very nice neighborhood. Just finished putting his fourth and last kid through college. Takes a cab or gets a ride if he's had one beer. I would consider him an upstanding citizen.

He also gets stopped, ordered out of his car and rousted a couple of times per year (he is black). This has never once happened to me, and I will freely admit to not being nearly as upstanding a citizen as he.

Regardless of the availability of scholarships, to even insinuate that there is a disadvantage to being a white male in our society is to really show that you have much to learn about life.

There is much truth in the Chris Rock line: A black man has to fly to where the white man can walk.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

There are literaly millions of people who commit crims on purpose so they can be in prison instead of a shelter, etc...

If true, that's a horribly depressing commentary on our society that there are large numbers of Americans wanting to live in a cage.

[Greyroofoo]

OMG, the truth is out...all us white people might as well quit pretending and pull the white hoods and robes out of those hiding places.

FINALLY!!!!

[DanGarion]

Except it is coming from someone admitted to a law school.

Going to law school doesn't mean someone is smart. (No offense Noop).

[TCY Junkie]

Going to law school doesn't mean someone is smart. (No offense Noop).

I had sex at a holiday inn last night.

[condors]

Waiting for a world where the color of a persons skin is never a point of topic like this.

[DaddyTorgo]

Waiting for a world where the color of a persons skin is never a point of topic like this.

as much as i want it to, don't think that'll be in our lifetime

[Neon_Chaos]

Waiting for a world where the color of a persons skin is never a point of topic like this.

Once the discussion is over, people can now fight over the amount of money in their wallets.

[INDalltheway]

Noop (first off, your name backwards is "poon"), no offense but you just aren't coming off as a very intelligent person in this thread. You've even admitted to acting on emotion, which is not going to help you if you become a lawyer. My brother is currently a 2nd year law student and I honestly can't see you holding a professional conversation like you will be expected to do. You honestly sound like you would be better off in politics rather than law to be honest. I'm not doing this to flame or anything, but I'm sure I'm not the only person that sees it this way.

I am a white male that has grown up around very little racism. This even coming from a small, mostly white town in Indiana. Sure you have the racist idiots who truly make you ashamed to be white because the assumptions these people cause. I seriously feel like this hate needs to go away and I feel like my generation is becoming much better. Personally, I don't think any different if I see a black or white person walk by. The majority of my peers think the exact same way. I really just wish people would stop thinking the world was out to get them. Take advantage of all your opportunities, and attempt to make up that 40-0 disadvantage if that is what you were dealt. Nothing good is coming out of bringing up history that myself and the other white males had nothing to do with.

[Karlifornia]

An anecdote.

My oldest friend is a regional director for a Fortune 500 corporation. Workaholic -- he's probably averaged 60-70 hours a week for the past 20 years. Makes a damn good salary and earns it. Lives in a very nice neighborhood. Just finished putting his fourth and last kid through college. Takes a cab or gets a ride if he's had one beer. I would consider him an upstanding citizen.

He also gets stopped, ordered out of his car and rousted a couple of times per year (he is black). This has never once happened to me, and I will freely admit to not being nearly as upstanding a citizen as he.

Regardless of the availability of scholarships, to even insinuate that there is a disadvantage to being a white male in our society is to really show that you have much to learn about life.

There is much truth in the Chris Rock line: A black man has to fly to where the white man can walk.


Dude..thank you for that.

I am not black. I am not white, but I am not black. Every person that looks at me has a different guess regarding my ethnicity. Even though I am 50% negroid, I don't feel as though I've experienced tribulations that even approach a level that full blooded black people have. That being said, half of my family IS 100% black. My grandmother moved to Ohio from Jamaica in the 1950's. Yeah, black people were free in the 1950's, but they weren't anything that could be considered first-class citizens. My grandmother and grandfather (well-educated people from Jamaica) were segregated for the AMOUNT OF MELANIN IN THEIR SKIN

THE AMOUNT OF MELANIN IN THEIR SKIN

THE AMOUNT OF MELANIN IN THEIR SKIN

THE AMOUNT OF MELANIN IN THEIR SKIN


That is what made them second class citizens. Not even 60 years ago. My 88-year-old grandmother is still alive, and still lives in Painesville, Ohio. She has never committed a crime in her life, but she still lived half of her life being treated as less than human. She goes about it with more grace than I can.


(I say the following just for posterity, so that people don't think I'm just some militant)

I was RAISED by a white woman, a woman I love more than any other person. My father is black, and I couldn't care less about him. He is a soulless piece of money and pussy grubbing GARBAGE, and I tell him this. He don't care, and so I don't care.


(And I return)


Anyone who offers up the "When does it stop being a reason, and become an excuse" statement is wrong. That means you, Lathum (I like you Lathum, but I take your statement as an affront to a lot of people that I think have been treated very poorly, even up until this very day).. Racism ain't dead. It's a losing battle, but there are still soldiers fighting it, whether it be consciously or subconsciously. I feel lucky. I am not a victim of it. I know people who are constantly victims of it. Don't tell me it ain't so. It's so. That doesn't give anyone license to be an asshole, but it does give people other licenses, as Chris Rock said:

"White people complain about the double standard that black folks get to say the word "Nigger", and white folks don't. Well, last time I checked, that was the only advantage of being black."

[DanGarion]

as much as i want it to, don't think that'll be in our lifetime

Considering our President is black, I think we are closer then you think. Sure there will always be bigots and ignorant asses, but those types of people will always exist.

[Noop]

Noop (first off, your name backwards is "poon"), no offense but you just aren't coming off as a very intelligent person in this thread. You've even admitted to acting on emotion, which is not going to help you if you become a lawyer. My brother is currently a 2nd year law student and I honestly can't see you holding a professional conversation like you will be expected to do. You honestly sound like you would be better off in politics rather than law to be honest. I'm not doing this to flame or anything, but I'm sure I'm not the only person that sees it this way.

Seriously what is the point of this? You have no idea what my qualifications are and you're already saying I won't make it in law school. I don't care that your brother is in law school, what does that have to do with me? What does me going to law school have anything to do with this discussion?

I gave my opinion and others gave theirs yet no one is taking a dump about their occupation. That is twice now someone has taken a swipe at my intelligence, really what does that prove? I can spout off my accomplishments but what would that prove? I really don't get what some of you are trying to say... I am an idiot? In my twenty one years on this earth, I'm sure I am no more an idiot then you or anyone else was at twenty one.

Also I have no problem admitting my mistakes and trying to improve upon them, would you rather me continue arguing when I was clearly over the line for what I said? I don't know anything about you, but I think you should be in politics after your done with law school.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Rather than intelligence, I think what they might have been talking about is rationality in argument vs. emotionality in argument, and how the distinction is an important one for lawyers.

I *hope* no one is calling you an idiot.

[Noop]

Rather than intelligence, I think what they might have been talking about is rationality in argument vs. emotionality in argument, and how the distinction is an important one for lawyers.

I *hope* no one is calling you an idiot.

I understand the difference clearly, this is a message board and not a seminar. That's why it is puzzling when someone questions whether I am in law school or not. This board is not school, when I'm in school I keep my opinions to myself.

[molson]

I understand the difference clearly, this is a message board and not a seminar. That's why it is puzzling when someone questions whether I am in law school or not. This board is not school, when I'm in school I keep my opinions to myself.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, even law students, so I don't quite understand that attack at all. There's really no legal arguments in this thread, so I don't see how you're "crossing any lines" in that regard.

Starting law school at 21-22 is pretty amazing. It's both a risk and an opportunity. If you succeed, you have a huge head start and can be well on your way by the time you're 30. But a good number of the 1L drop-outs are around that age as well. Bear down in that first semester and you'll be in great shape.

[Lathum]

Rather than intelligence, I think what they might have been talking about is rationality in argument vs. emotionality in argument, and how the distinction is an important one for lawyers.

I *hope* no one is calling you an idiot.

I was one of the people who ask Noop about being a lawyer. I was in no way attempting to be critical of his intellegence or his chances to become a lawyer. I wish him nothing but the best. Through other conversations I have had with Noop ( especialy about guns) I realize he is younger and comes from a different place then I do, hence he has a far different perspective then I could ever have. I admire him for carrying on the discussions he does here in such a candid manner when most people would just say F off.

I was asking him about being a lawyer because I interpreted his posts as trying, convicting and sentencing the guy before he ever entered a courtroom.

[Lathum]

Anyone who offers up the "When does it stop being a reason, and become an excuse" statement is wrong. That means you, Lathum (I like you Lathum, but I take your statement as an affront to a lot of people that I think have been treated very poorly, even up until this very day).. Racism ain't dead. It's a losing battle, but there are still soldiers fighting it, whether it be consciously or subconsciously.

I completly agree with you that racism still exists. My point is that any battle worth winning takes hard work.

I realize minorities are at a huge disadvantage in this country, nut there are opprotunities there. IMO you have no right to complain when there are ways you can get out.

I learned a lesson a long time ago, there are 2 decision you can make. One is the right decision and one is the comfortable decision. The right decision is usually way more diffucult.

I would never for one second pretend I know what it is like to be in a school that doesn't have the proper facilities, etc...but at some point if things are going to change there needs to be actions, no one is going to hand it to you, you need to work hard to take it.

If I offended you or anyone I am truly sorry, that wasn't my intention.

[INDalltheway]

Seriously what is the point of this? You have no idea what my qualifications are and you're already saying I won't make it in law school. I don't care that your brother is in law school, what does that have to do with me? What does me going to law school have anything to do with this discussion?

I gave my opinion and others gave theirs yet no one is taking a dump about their occupation. That is twice now someone has taken a swipe at my intelligence, really what does that prove? I can spout off my accomplishments but what would that prove? I really don't get what some of you are trying to say... I am an idiot? In my twenty one years on this earth, I'm sure I am no more an idiot then you or anyone else was at twenty one.

Also I have no problem admitting my mistakes and trying to improve upon them, would you rather me continue arguing when I was clearly over the line for what I said? I don't know anything about you, but I think you should be in politics after your done with law school.

First off I never said you wouldn't make it in Law school. I'm merely trying to point out that you have some growing up to do. In essence thinking before you speak, and most importantly not butchering the use of "your" and "you're".. This is like the 100th time I've seen you screw it up and it tilts the hell out of me. Sorry, I get agitated easily. :banghead:

[jeff061]

For christ sake this is a message board. Somehow I tend to think he'll take law school and being a lawyer a little more seriously. People criticizing someone's real life situation based on posts in a thread are causing me to facepalm even more than usual. And christ, grammar attacks? Really?

I mean if you just want to insult a lawyer, that's fine, who doesn't? Just be honest about it damn it!

[Noop]

BART Slaying 'Intentional'; Murder Charge Filed - News Story - KTVU San Francisco (http://www.ktvu.com/news/18475843/detail.html)

Apparently it was intentional.

Edit: The DA thinks it was intentional.

[DanGarion]

BART Slaying 'Intentional'; Murder Charge Filed - News Story - KTVU San Francisco (http://www.ktvu.com/news/18475843/detail.html)

Apparently it was intentional.

Wow that's just sick that someone would take a persons life like that. I hope he is prosecuted to the fullest extent of law.


-edit : if it's actually intentional.

[molson]

BART Slaying 'Intentional'; Murder Charge Filed - News Story - KTVU San Francisco (http://www.ktvu.com/news/18475843/detail.html)

Apparently it was intentional.

Edit: The DA thinks it was intentional.

That's just to get him to plead to manslaughter. I don't see how they can prove murder (from what we know publicly).

[Bad-example]

I wonder if those buffoons that marched down the street destroying cars think they forced "the Man" into charging this guy.

[ace1914]

I wonder if those buffoons that marched down the street destroying cars think they forced "the Man" into charging this guy.

What is this? A blaxsploitation film? Newsflash: Its 2009 and we have a black president, no one really says "The Man" anymore.


The whole issue comes down to education. As our society becomes more and more educated, we'll make fewer and fewer irrational decisions. Rioting in this case was completely irrational.



Or we need to be attacked by an alien race that eats all humans regardless of color. I bet people wouldn't be racist then....:popcorn:

[Klinglerware]

Or we need to be attacked by an alien race that eats all humans regardless of color. I bet people wouldn't be racist then....:popcorn:

Wouldn't they be racist against the aliens, though? Once again, the Ronald Reagan theory on world peace and racial harmony, ftw!

[Noop]

What is this? A blaxsploitation film? Newsflash: Its 2009 and we have a black president, no one really says "The Man" anymore.


The whole issue comes down to education. As our society becomes more and more educated, we'll make fewer and fewer irrational decisions. Rioting in this case was completely irrational.



Or we need to be attacked by an alien race that eats all humans regardless of color. I bet people wouldn't be racist then....:popcorn:

Just because the president is black doesn't mean there isn't any racism, it means that progress has been made(rather quickly in my opinion) but we have a long way to go before it doesn't exist.

[Pumpy Tudors]

What is this? A blaxsploitation film?
I wish. If it were, I'd grow out my afro, take my pants off, and everyone in this thread would be walking funny until Easter.

[Noop]

Video (http://www.ktvu.com/video/18554358/index.html)

The video of him punching him.

BART Promises Investigation Of Second Officer's Punch - News Story - KTVU San Francisco (http://www.ktvu.com/news/18554361/detail.html#-)

The article.


You know what I am not even angry, I am disappointed and wish that things didn't have to be this way.

[RainMaker]

Video (http://www.ktvu.com/video/18554358/index.html)

The video of him punching him.

BART Promises Investigation Of Second Officer's Punch - News Story - KTVU San Francisco (http://www.ktvu.com/news/18554361/detail.html#-)

The article.


You know what I am not even angry, I am disappointed and wish that things didn't have to be this way.

Damn, that's pretty messed up too. I mean we know this stuff goes on in major cities, but to do it in front of a ton of spectators seems real dumb.

I'd like to give these guys the benefit of the doubt and think it's a big accident. But putting all the videos together, this looks to me like an assault and execution.

[RainMaker]

That's just to get him to plead to manslaughter. I don't see how they can prove murder (from what we know publicly).

The videotape says it all. The guy pulls out his gun and shoots the guy. The fact they have another officer beat the crap out of the guy beforehand sort of hurts the whole "accident" argument in my book.

[molson]

I didn't even know this trial was going on, but we have a verdict of involuntary manslaughter.

Jury delivers involuntary manslaughter verdict in Oakland shooting - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/07/08/subway.shooting.trial.verdict/index.html?hpt=T2)

[Izulde]

So that's why a friend of mine in SF posted she hoped there wouldn't be riots cuz she needed to ride the BART.

[RainMaker]

Guess they had police telling people to get home from work and such early before the verdict just in case.

[larrymcg421]

Wow. What a bullshit verdict. What are the odds that the average person could get an involuntary manslaughter verdict if they shot someone in the same manner?

[molson]

Wow. What a bullshit verdict. What are the odds that the average person could get an involuntary manslaughter verdict if they shot someone in the same manner?

If a regular guy had a gun legally (and actually had a reason to have the gun besides the killing), had no apparent reason to shoot somebody, and looked surprised after the shot was fired - it might be tough to prove the necessary intent for 1st-degree murder if you didn't have anything else. I don't know if they had anything else, I have no idea what evidence was presented to show state of mind. His reaction afterwards (that we didn't see on video) would be important, I wonder if he said anything to anyone.

[AENeuman]

Wow. What a bullshit verdict. What are the odds that the average person could get an involuntary manslaughter verdict if they shot someone in the same manner?

What are the odds that the average person could get an involuntary manslaughter verdict if they performed surgery on someone in the same manner as a doctor?

[larrymcg421]

What are the odds that the average person could get an involuntary manslaughter verdict if they performed surgery on someone in the same manner as a doctor?

That's a terrible analogy. Did the doctor randomly stab the patient in the throat and then act surprised that the patient died? If so, then I'd be just as pissed if he got involuntary manslaughter.

[molson]

Did the doctor randomly stab the patient in the throat and then act surprised that the patient died? If so, then I'd be just as pissed if he got involuntary manslaughter.

That's a good analogy. If his defense was that it was a high stress, emergency situation (maybe some kind of medical intervention outside the hospital, in a potentially dangerous environment) and he fucked up and used a scalpel instead of a needle - It would be difficult to prove malice intent, and especially premeditation (I'm not 100% sure premeditation was a required element of whatever they charged him with in the BART case).

[Glengoyne]

Wow. What a bullshit verdict. What are the odds that the average person could get an involuntary manslaughter verdict if they shot someone in the same manner?

Seriously? Bullshit verdict? I mean you understand how the trial process works...beyond a reasonable doubt and all of that.

An average person wouldn't be carrying a gun and legitimately pointing it at someone. If this situation stops where the guy pulls the gun and points it at someone, we don't hear of it again. This guy can safely state that he was doing his job right up until the point where he pulls the trigger. If he says that was an accident....How exactly does someone prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he is lying, and that it was intentional?

[Sgran]

How long is he going to be behind bars?

[miked]

Max sentence is 4 years, though the judge could increase it because a gun was used. I'm with Larry here, sort of. Are we really supposed to believe that this guy thought he was drawing and firing his taser? Are cops that dumb? That was his defense, an accident and thought he was drawing his taser. I guess they weigh the same as guns and have the same trigger as well. I can understand heat of the moment, but the dude was pinned down by another cop and subdued.

I also find it a bit odd that a jury of his peers in Oakland encompassed 12 white people.