I Have Been Saved

[tarcone]

I found Jesus Christ. I am celebrating that he died for me. My life has improved considerably since I found Him. This is an incredible feeling. I have never been this happy in my life. The peace I have found is intoxicating. I am now trying to improve my relationship with the Lord.
Im not sure if this is the place for this. But part of a relationship with Christ is sharing your love of the Lord.
I pray for everyone on this board to find Jesus Christ. Hell is a terrible alternative.
This is a 41 year old who has lived an extremely risky and a not very fruitful life. I drank and whored to extremes. But in the past 2 months I found Jesus Christ and my life is more peaceful.
Thanks for listening.

[MJ4H]

atta boy

[kingfc22]

That's awesome.

[Flasch186]

congratulations. Due to the hubris of this board I thought you were going to have some joke regarding an in-game save in madden or such. Congrats on the life changing experience and I hope that you'll improve the lives of others because of it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Sounds pretty much like the way it's supposed to work ;)

The tricky part seems to be the whole staying in the center of his will thing, to which I can only say that He doesn't move so when we get off course it's a matter of steering ourselves back to that point again. The good news there is that He's happy to help us do that.

Enjoy it, ain't nothing else like it.

[Raiders Army]

Congratulations.

I anticipate this thread moving in a slightly different direction, though. I give it less than 25 posts.

[Glengoyne]

I think I've only done this once before.

What Flasch said.

Congrats.

[Karlifornia]

I found Waldo....I'll settle for that and enjoy being sodomized in hell.

[MrDNA]

So... is this going to effect your gameplanning? If the meek shall inherit the earth, I think that means you have to spot Jacksonville at least one win a year...

[Danny]

I found Waldo....I'll settle for that and enjoy being sodomized in hell.

If you have a problem simply ignore the thread, it's not that hard.

Congratulations Tarcone, I am happy for you.

[Groundhog]

Hell isn't the only alternative. Pastafarians ftw.

[Karlifornia]

If you have a problem simply ignore the thread, it's not that hard.

Congratulations Tarcone, I am happy for you.

Where did I say I have a problem?

Why don't I get the same congratulations for my discovery? I know it says ages 4-6, but we don't all operate the same way.

[Danny]

Where did I say I have a problem?

Why don't I get the same congratulations for my discovery? I know it says ages 4-6, but we don't all operate the same way.

Then go make your own thread. This one isn't about you.

[CraigSca]

Congrats, Tarcone. I was re-saved about 2 years ago - never looked back.

[cuervo72]

Thanks for listening.

Thanks for sharing.

[Buccaneer]

Be a light to the world and go in love!

[BYU 14]

Congrats, finding that balance truly is a great feeling.

[Edward64]

Congratulations in finding the peace.

[path12]

Not a believer but I'm happy for you and anyone else who finds peace in your faith.

[ISiddiqui]

congratulations. Due to the hubris of this board I thought you were going to have some joke regarding an in-game save in madden or such.

I'm sorry, I couldn't find an in-game save of Madden, but I did find this:

http://blogofhilarity.com/wp-content/uploads/madden-540x419.jpg

[lighthousekeeper]

wow good for you dude. now can you fill us in on the extreme whoring? what was that like?

[Greyroofoo]

An honest question from an atheist...

how did you find Jesus?

[Schmidty]

An honest question from an atheist...

how did you find Jesus?

Calvinist - He finds You

Arminian -You find Him



By the way - God bless you, tarcone!! I am so very happy to hear God working in people's lives!!!

[Abe Sargent]

Congrats!

[Ryche]

Anything that brings peace is a good thing.

[SCgoatman]

I found Jesus Christ. I am celebrating that he died for me. My life has improved considerably since I found Him. This is an incredible feeling. I have never been this happy in my life. The peace I have found is intoxicating. I am now trying to improve my relationship with the Lord.
Im not sure if this is the place for this. But part of a relationship with Christ is sharing your love of the Lord.
I pray for everyone on this board to find Jesus Christ. Hell is a terrible alternative.
This is a 41 year old who has lived an extremely risky and a not very fruitful life. I drank and whored to extremes. But in the past 2 months I found Jesus Christ and my life is more peaceful.
Thanks for listening.

glad to know you're a complete fucking retard.

[kcchief19]

I anticipate this thread moving in a slightly different direction, though. I give it less than 25 posts.
glad to know you're a complete fucking retard.
I think over just paid out.

[DanGarion]

glad to know you're a complete fucking retard.

You must be a nice quality individual... That SC part of your name must be for South Carolina...

[JediKooter]

As an atheist, it's all about being happy, and if this makes you happy tarcone, then cool.

May the Force be with you

[Karlifornia]

glad to know you're a complete fucking retard.

Well..lol...I can't endorse that. I did laugh out loud, but damn.

By the way, I take this to mean tarcone is taking the Cardinals in the Super Bowl.

[Marc Vaughan]

how did you find Jesus?

Looked everywhere for him and then what do you know he was where I'd left him ;)

(more seriously - congrats, regardless of whether people agree with your beliefs of not, you've found something which makes you happy and doesn't hurt others - thats cool in my book :D)

[GoldenEagle]

Congrats on your findings of Jesus.

Ignore the trolls. That should be a Biblical verse.

[MacroGuru]

glad to know you're a complete fucking retard.

Wow....just wow.....Honestly what was the thought process of popping into this thread except to be a troll.

Tarcone I am happy for you and glad you were able to bring spirituality back or into your life.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

An honest question from an atheist...

how did you find Jesus?

As someone who believes in "God" but struggles with buying in to organized religion, I think this is an interesting question and would love to hear the story.

[Raiders Army]

I think over just paid out.

I'm sad to say I'm not surprised; hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

--break break--

Ironically, yesterday I spent quite a bit of time on this website: Evidence for God from Science (http://www.godandscience.org/)

One of my co-workers recommended it and I found it pretty interesting. There were a lot of fallacious arguments, but some of them made good sense.

[Sun Tzu]

Mazel tov.

[Noop]

glad to know you're a complete fucking retard.

I know this is classless but damn that is funny.

[MJ4H]

glad to know you're a complete fucking retard.

ditto (you, not tarcone)

[BYU 14]

glad to know you're a complete fucking retard.

SCgoatman?? Your name says it all about what you worship...what a jerk!

[Warhammer]

Congrats!

[Buccaneer]

Looked everywhere for him and then what do you know he was where I'd left him ;)



We actually don't "find" Him (asHe was always there) but we just become a little less lost.

[TCY Junkie]

glad to know you're a complete fucking retard.

You are so wrong on this, I think you need some advise. If you're driving with the window down and some guy calls you and says he bets a rabbit will piss in you ear, don't take the bet. You'll be out money and have rabbit piss in your ear.

[Anthony]

I drank and whored to extremes.

wait, so you don't drink anymore? ooof.

i'm sorry, i don't want to piss on your parade but drinking and whoring sounds like a grand old time to me. if that means i don't go to heaven (which i don't believe in since i don't believe in the hocus pocus of God), then sign me up for hell (which, since i don't believe in heaven also means i don't believe in hell. woo hoo!).

if there is a hell i'm calling dibs on lakefront property. the lake would obviously be a lake of fire and chaos, but hey beggars can't be choosers.


but anyway, whether God exists or not its nice that you chose to take the blue pill and are satisfied with the Matrix. sounds like you'll be a much nicer human and others will respect the life you live. i think its a quaint and remarkable trait that someone can choose to chase the carrot in front of them while others know the carrot doesn't exist.

[ISiddiqui]

I think you can drink (unless you were an alcoholic), because Jesus did turn water into wine.

[Toddzilla]

Anything that brings peace is a good thing.As an atheist myself, I give this post :+1:

[Sun Tzu]

Everybody here should know by now that this isn't an official thread until HA posts.

[MizzouRah]

Good for you Tarcone!

[Recoil]

i'm sorry, i don't want to piss on your parade but drinking and whoring sounds like a grand old time to me.

QFT

[Lathum]

I consider myself somewhat religous, yet would never be one of those over the top Jesus saved me people.

That being said I am glad you found something that brings you peace and hope it continues to do so.

[Lathum]

glad to know you're a complete fucking retard.

Based entirely based on 1-3 and 5, I believe you're a complete and utter idiot. However I also believe that as long as you don't try to force these beliefs on others, it is entirely within your right to believe as such, and may in fact benefit your life and those you know.

2 of his 12 posts.

he obviously is an ignorant fool has issues with religion and other people discussing their beliefs.

[Anthony]

wow good for you dude. now can you fill us in on the extreme whoring? what was that like?

i think i jacked to "Extreme Whoring 4: The Assgasm" last week. it was ok, but these days it seems people in porn are struggling to find ways to shock you.

[Anthony]

ok, i will not allow this thread to turn into the $3.7million virgin thread. i'm done.


congrats tarcone, live long and prosper.

[panerd]

As a non-believer I agree with what other people who don't buy into organized religion have said... if it makes you happy and doesn't effect others lives than I feel great for you. I feel bad for the morons who slammed you who don't even know you. They just look foolish themselves and they give non-believers like myself a bad name.

As far as the oxymoronic scientific evidence of God website. :lol: That is a whole other story. Posts like this should not be free from constructive criticism.

[Dr. Sak]

I consider myself somewhat religous, yet would never be one of those over the top Jesus saved me people.

That being said I am glad you found something that brings you peace and hope it continues to do so.

+1

[bignej]

Good for you for finding your happiness though not my personal cup of tea.

HA, I found your paragraph on the matrix and the carrot chasing incredibly insightful and plan to steal it as my own.

[WSUCougar]

glad to know you're a complete fucking retard.
You would know. That earns you 10 days in the cooler.

[flere-imsaho]

Not a believer but I'm happy for you and anyone else who finds peace in your faith.

:+1:

You would know. That earns you 10 days in the cooler.

:bowdown:

[M GO BLUE!!!]

What the hell is with people losing their damn minds because someone finds something in their life that brings them inner peace and happiness? I mean, it's not like Tarcone is in here throwing Bibles and shouting that without Him we are doomed to the fires of Hades!

Rock on, Tarcone! To quote a popular song, Jesus is just alright with me!

[RedKingGold]

Which leads me to a very libertarian belief that as long as one accepts others rights to believe whatever they choose; one should believe whatever they feel is most true and/or benefits their lifestyle.

I found Jesus Christ. I am celebrating that he died for me. My life has improved considerably since I found Him. This is an incredible feeling. I have never been this happy in my life. The peace I have found is intoxicating. I am now trying to improve my relationship with the Lord. Im not sure if this is the place for this. But part of a relationship with Christ is sharing your love of the Lord. I pray for everyone on this board to find Jesus Christ. Hell is a terrible alternative. This is a 41 year old who has lived an extremely risky and a not very fruitful life. I drank and whored to extremes. But in the past 2 months I found Jesus Christ and my life is more peaceful. Thanks for listening.

glad to know you're a complete fucking retard.

"shrug"

[Subby]

The bitter, poison ugliness in this thread is only surpassed by what seems to me like tarcone's unmitigated joy and happiness and love.

Tarcone wins in a landslide.

[Subby]

Well..lol...I can't endorse that. I did laugh out loud, but damn. By the way, I take this to mean tarcone is taking the Cardinals in the Super Bowl.
C'mon. I know you are better than this.

[Barkeep49]

You would know. That earns you 10 days in the cooler.
As I started this thread, I was surprised to not see "In the Box" next to his name. Does that not show up anymore?

[Crim]

You would know. That earns you 10 days in the cooler.

Glad you did it, WSUCougar, but the dude has twelve posts in 14 months... not sure any little ol' boxing is gonna break that stride. Just sayin.

[RainMaker]

As an atheist, it's all about being happy, and if this makes you happy tarcone, then cool.

May the Force be with you

Perhaps it is, but it may also be about rooting out myths from society. Would we celebrate someone coming on this board and saying they believe in unicorns and fire breathing dragons? How about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy? Probably not.

And just because something helps someone find peace doesn't mean it's right. A labotomy could have the same effect on someone in finding peace. I certainly wouldn't recommend it to anyone I know.

But perhaps the point is that to some of us, drinking and whoring isn't a bad thing if no one gets hurt. It's religion that has made that "taboo". If stopping that was truly important to you for the sake of your health or life, then great. But I hope you didn't stop doing it because you thought you'd end up in some mythical place that doesn't exist. Do things for yourself, not a make believe God. You have shown you have the power to resist those temptations. You and you alone, not some God helping you along the way. Give yourself a pat on the back, no one else.

[Ryche]

Sorry, thread made me think of this

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/funny-pictures-your-cat-has-found-jesus.jpg

[Matthean]

if it makes you happy and doesn't effect others lives than I feel great for you.

Technically, a Christian should be going out and effecting other people's lives. :D

[JediKooter]

Perhaps it is, but it may also be about rooting out myths from society. Would we celebrate someone coming on this board and saying they believe in unicorns and fire breathing dragons? How about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy? Probably not.

And just because something helps someone find peace doesn't mean it's right. A labotomy could have the same effect on someone in finding peace. I certainly wouldn't recommend it to anyone I know.

But perhaps the point is that to some of us, drinking and whoring isn't a bad thing if no one gets hurt. It's religion that has made that "taboo". If stopping that was truly important to you for the sake of your health or life, then great. But I hope you didn't stop doing it because you thought you'd end up in some mythical place that doesn't exist. Do things for yourself, not a make believe God. You have shown you have the power to resist those temptations. You and you alone, not some God helping you along the way. Give yourself a pat on the back, no one else.

I hear you RainMaker and I agree with you. I just felt that what SCgoatman said was rude in my opinion and you never know, maybe a word of kindness from a non-believer or two could go a long way.

[Chief Rum]

glad to know you're a complete fucking retard.

You know, what I find funny is why everyone gets so emotional about what other people believe. I quote the above as the most extreme example, but it works other ways, too, for people who are emotionally happy for tarcone.

Not that being really, truly happy for tarcone is a bad thing--it just makes me wonder why it matters to them so.

At the level of "I am content you're happy", I am supportive of what is going on in tarcone's life. As in, one or two ticks above complete complacency, and that only because I like to think I am by and large a fairly decent guy who will generally wish well for the happiness of others, and if this makes tarcone happy, who I am to wish (or care) otherwise?

I always think people who are overly negative or positive about an announcement like this, that maybe there's something a little off about them on this particular subject.

[Karlifornia]

C'mon. I know you are better than this.

Subby, you are my favorite poster on this board. I almost look at you as a FOFC posting mentor, strangely. So, could you do me the service of elaborating on this?

I didn't want to eviscerate SCgoatman. While his honesty was without a doubt tactless, it was honesty.

An honest asshole, or a lying saint?

[Karlifornia]

Perhaps it is, but it may also be about rooting out myths from society. Would we celebrate someone coming on this board and saying they believe in unicorns and fire breathing dragons? How about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy? Probably not.

And just because something helps someone find peace doesn't mean it's right. A labotomy could have the same effect on someone in finding peace. I certainly wouldn't recommend it to anyone I know.

But perhaps the point is that to some of us, drinking and whoring isn't a bad thing if no one gets hurt. It's religion that has made that "taboo". If stopping that was truly important to you for the sake of your health or life, then great. But I hope you didn't stop doing it because you thought you'd end up in some mythical place that doesn't exist. Do things for yourself, not a make believe God. You have shown you have the power to resist those temptations. You and you alone, not some God helping you along the way. Give yourself a pat on the back, no one else.

I agree with this post whole-heartedly. Rainmaker is a fuckin' champ.

[rowech]

I understand people's beliefs that there isn't a God. I question it myself sometimes but how someone can look at how the universe works so perfectly and so exactly and not believe there is some sort of higher being that designed it all...instead choosing that it is all a big happy series of accidents is beyond me.

[Chief Rum]

Ah, but you see, some of us don't believe it works all that perfectly.

But let's say we assume it does, this is flawed reasoning, because if it didn't work perfectly, well then, we wouldn't be around to question it.

[RainMaker]

I understand people's beliefs that there isn't a God. I question it myself sometimes but how someone can look at how the universe works so perfectly and so exactly and not believe there is some sort of higher being that designed it all...instead choosing that it is all a big happy series of accidents is beyond me.

It works perfectly for us because we evolved for the universe. There is no such thing as perfect, it's just what it is.

And if the argument is that the Universe is so perfect that it had to be designed by something, wouldn't that make the designer even more perfect, and thus have to be designed by something? That just seems to start an endless loop.

[Flasch186]

Perhaps it is, but it may also be about rooting out myths from society. Would we celebrate someone coming on this board and saying they believe in unicorns and fire breathing dragons? How about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy? Probably not.

And just because something helps someone find peace doesn't mean it's right. A labotomy could have the same effect on someone in finding peace. I certainly wouldn't recommend it to anyone I know.

But perhaps the point is that to some of us, drinking and whoring isn't a bad thing if no one gets hurt. It's religion that has made that "taboo". If stopping that was truly important to you for the sake of your health or life, then great. But I hope you didn't stop doing it because you thought you'd end up in some mythical place that doesn't exist. Do things for yourself, not a make believe God. You have shown you have the power to resist those temptations. You and you alone, not some God helping you along the way. Give yourself a pat on the back, no one else.

some of this made a good point....than you injected opinion.

[bignej]

Tarcone,
Were you "saved" from being an atheist or were you just a bad christian? Curious because I've never know someone who absolutely didn't believe in God that became "saved".

[Anthony]

there's this part of me that always wants to be in on everything. obviously that can never be so. but right this second there's some cool techno party in Prague. or some tiny pub in Ireland or Germany where everyone is just vibing to some cool song or there's a positive aura in the room. or people in the Peace Corps unwinding after a hard day's work in the field helping villagers get water. there's always something going on and i don't want to feel i'm missing out on anything. so there's this small part of me who would like to feel the sense of togetherness and community by being active in a church, being with other people who all have this sense of shared belief. you know, that "we're all in this together" kinda wavelength.

of course, i don't believe in God so that kinda puts a monkey wrench in that, but i guess my point is i can see how finding Jesus, becoming part of a religious community and feeling connected is a wonderful opiate. that sensation you get from being with other like-minded individuals all striving for salvation and going to midnight mass and getting ashes on your forehead for lent and bible study discussions, it must feel awesome to be a part of. its not for me, just more of me wishing i was omnipresent and could experience everything everywhere when its happening. hard for me to elaborate on.

[Anthony]

But perhaps the point is that to some of us, drinking and whoring isn't a bad thing if no one gets hurt. It's religion that has made that "taboo". If stopping that was truly important to you for the sake of your health or life, then great. But I hope you didn't stop doing it because you thought you'd end up in some mythical place that doesn't exist. Do things for yourself, not a make believe God. You have shown you have the power to resist those temptations. You and you alone, not some God helping you along the way. Give yourself a pat on the back, no one else.

i don't whore cuz i'm married, but i would if i was single. the drinking part i got locked down.

i don't go for anything that places limitations on me. Sheryl Crow once sang "if it makes you happy, it can't be that bad". a cheesy reference, yes, but i believe in it nonetheless. obviously if killing and raping is your thing then i can't defend you, but drinking and having fun and being friendly with the ladies isn't bad at all. we're all going to die, it's what you do while you're alive and the stories you can reflect on when you aren't able to do much - that's what life is about. when you're reaching the end of the ride and you're in the last final years and you sit and reflect on all the shit and stuff you've done - that's what life is.

over the years i've been subcribing to this theory of mine that the bible and the whole old testament was really a handle of stories created by the jews, the slaves of Egypt. they'd tell each other these positive stories to uplift their morale and have people looking for to a brighter day sometime in the future, telling of a great king who'd one day liberate them all and bring them to a promised land because even though they were all slaves they were in fact "the chosen ones". all that adam & eve and noah's ark was a way to embelish and add on to these initial stories. this is what i'm starting to believe. and you know what - anything that makes you feel good inside and gives you the strength to live a good life and add more positive forces than negative, that's a good thing. if religion helps you turn from a horrible human who's a poison to society into a dependable and trustworthy and helpful person, that's a good thing. whether or not God exists isn't the point. it's good to be a good human, as simple as that sounds. its just there are ways to be a good human that don't involve you eliminating things that make you happy. if you must eliminate things then you should do it because its healthy for you to do so, not because you think at the end of it all God is gonna come out in a gameshow voice and say

"you've lived a good life...tell him what he's won Bob."

"....a trip to Heaven where you'll have everlasting peace and happiness bathing in the warmth of your Creator's light!"

[RendeR]

Perhaps it is, but it may also be about rooting out myths from society. Would we celebrate someone coming on this board and saying they believe in unicorns and fire breathing dragons? How about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy? Probably not.

And just because something helps someone find peace doesn't mean it's right. A labotomy could have the same effect on someone in finding peace. I certainly wouldn't recommend it to anyone I know.

But perhaps the point is that to some of us, drinking and whoring isn't a bad thing if no one gets hurt. It's religion that has made that "taboo". If stopping that was truly important to you for the sake of your health or life, then great. But I hope you didn't stop doing it because you thought you'd end up in some mythical place that doesn't exist. Do things for yourself, not a make believe God. You have shown you have the power to resist those temptations. You and you alone, not some God helping you along the way. Give yourself a pat on the back, no one else.

I agree with you almost entirely RM, however its my belief that we ought to keep this opinion to ourselves. Its his life, he can run it his way. Who are we to tell him how to do it?

Sorry, thread made me think of this

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/funny-pictures-your-cat-has-found-jesus.jpg

This made me laugh.

Technically, a Christian should be going out and effecting other people's lives. :D

IMO this is what is the root problem with Religion in general. The propensity for not minding their own business and leaving others alone.

Subby, you are my favorite poster on this board. I almost look at you as a FOFC posting mentor, strangely. So, could you do me the service of elaborating on this?

I didn't want to eviscerate SCgoatman. While his honesty was without a doubt tactless, it was honesty.

An honest asshole, or a lying saint?

I was a little confused by this also. Your post wasn't antagonizing him that I could see. You stated that he could think as he pleased and the post simply made you laugh. I'm not seeing the issue?




Tarcone: The end result is, if you're happy, good for you. I hope your beliefs lead you to a long and fulfilling life.

[JT2008]

Perhaps it is, but it may also be about rooting out myths from society. Would we celebrate someone coming on this board and saying they believe in unicorns and fire breathing dragons? How about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy? Probably not.

And just because something helps someone find peace doesn't mean it's right. A labotomy could have the same effect on someone in finding peace. I certainly wouldn't recommend it to anyone I know.

But perhaps the point is that to some of us, drinking and whoring isn't a bad thing if no one gets hurt. It's religion that has made that "taboo". If stopping that was truly important to you for the sake of your health or life, then great. But I hope you didn't stop doing it because you thought you'd end up in some mythical place that doesn't exist. Do things for yourself, not a make believe God. You have shown you have the power to resist those temptations. You and you alone, not some God helping you along the way. Give yourself a pat on the back, no one else.

+1

[Marc Vaughan]

Technically, a Christian should be going out and effecting other people's lives. :D

I think it was fairly obvious he meant 'affecting other people's lives negatively'.

Its a bit like someone sitting in a bar and getting drunk - so long as they're a happy drunk I'm cool with it - will even have a laugh and a singalong with them if they ask nicely .... however if they're an angry drunk and push their attitude and opinions onto me then I don't like it ;)

[Marc Vaughan]

Perhaps it is, but it may also be about rooting out myths from society. Would we celebrate someone coming on this board and saying they believe in unicorns and fire breathing dragons? How about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy? Probably not.
I'd react the same way to anyone saying they'd found happyness in anything so long as I didn't think it'd hurt others or themselves.

If you want to become a Pastafarian, cool .... decided that you believe in Father Christmas again, equally cool with me ;)

(peronally I'd LOVE to believe in magic myself - especially if I could learn how to do it myself ;) )

[illinifan999]

Are some people here trying to imply that Santa Claus is not real?

[Noop]

Santa is real.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c313/rocker323/Santa_pimp_by_gts.jpg

[Raiders Army]

Perhaps it is, but it may also be about rooting out myths from society. Would we celebrate someone coming on this board and saying they believe in unicorns and fire breathing dragons? How about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy? Probably not.

And just because something helps someone find peace doesn't mean it's right. A labotomy could have the same effect on someone in finding peace. I certainly wouldn't recommend it to anyone I know.

But perhaps the point is that to some of us, drinking and whoring isn't a bad thing if no one gets hurt. It's religion that has made that "taboo". If stopping that was truly important to you for the sake of your health or life, then great. But I hope you didn't stop doing it because you thought you'd end up in some mythical place that doesn't exist. Do things for yourself, not a make believe God. You have shown you have the power to resist those temptations. You and you alone, not some God helping you along the way. Give yourself a pat on the back, no one else.

I agree with the latter paragraph of your post. As to your first paragraph, we probably wouldn't celebrate someone believing in unicorns, Santa Claus, etc....but I think the big difference there is that for the most part, we know that Christians have a good overall moral foundation. The same cannot be said for those who believe in the Tooth Fairy. In that respect, I think it's okay to tell someone good for you since you'll hopefully be a better person for society based upon our overall understanding of Christianity. Note I said overall, not every little thing.

I'm not sure what your second paragraph really means. If he's found peace within himself, even if it's a false peace, that's good right? The only downside I see is that if it is a peace based upon flawed principles then the fall could be much greater. That being said, I don't think we can disprove the existence of a God. There's a possibility they're right; I believe it is not probable, but there is still the possibility.

[Danny]

You know, what I find funny is why everyone gets so emotional about what other people believe. I quote the above as the most extreme example, but it works other ways, too, for people who are emotionally happy for tarcone.

Not that being really, truly happy for tarcone is a bad thing--it just makes me wonder why it matters to them so.

At the level of "I am content you're happy", I am supportive of what is going on in tarcone's life. As in, one or two ticks above complete complacency, and that only because I like to think I am by and large a fairly decent guy who will generally wish well for the happiness of others, and if this makes tarcone happy, who I am to wish (or care) otherwise?

I always think people who are overly negative or positive about an announcement like this, that maybe there's something a little off about them on this particular subject.

I disagree with this. I think there is absolutely nothing off about someone who can find joy in other people's happiness. As a Christian myself, yes I am biased in this. Still, if someone announced they were incredibly happy because they found love of someone else, a career they're passionate about or any number of things, I am going to be happy for them. I mean, I'm not going to have a party at my house, but in that moment, I will be genuinely happy for them.

[DrAFTjunkie]

Very happy for you Tarcone. :)

I'm not a "believer, per say. I believe in a universal driving force, and for me, consider it to be undeniable. I won't get into the concepts of fate, synchronicity, or any of my other beliefs because I'm sick, and don't have the energy to be my usual, long-winded self.

But I'll say this: My cousin (more like a brother, really) was "saved" more than a decade ago. We were "pahtners" and headed down a very bad path together. One day, after not speaking to him for a couple of weeks, I rang him up to procure his assistance in an illicit activity, only to find him very happily and steadfastly unwilling.

He was living his life for "the word."

I was irate. I'll spare the struggle i had coming to grips with his "salvation" but right or wrong, I can tell you this: He's just recently gotten his masters, owns a house and has been downright thriving, which is a lot to say if you'd have known him--typical lost inner-city thug. Shit, the kid actually had a live grenade. But "the word" whether I like it or not, agree with it or not, has indeed saved him. I eventually found my own path to success, but I spent a lot of years as a n'er-do-well...unmotivated, a slave to opiates, blah blah. I'm glad I found my way, but I can't help but notice the inspiration he derived from his "salvation" and how quicker he made something of his life.

I still don't "believe," so to speak, but different strokes, y'know. He may have been long dead if it wasn't for Jesus.

[Schmidty]

I think you can drink (unless you were an alcoholic), because Jesus did turn water into wine.

Yeah, but back then wine was generally watered down, and used for daily use. I read somewhere that drinking undiluted wine was considered coarse. So maybe Jesus made water into white wine spritzer.

[Subby]

Subby, you are my favorite poster on this board. I almost look at you as a FOFC posting mentor, strangely. So, could you do me the service of elaborating on this?
I don't know. It just struck me as kind of petty and mean-spirited. Seemed like a weird thing to piggy back (goatboy's post, that is).

The "found jesus" poster is solid, however.

Just one man's opinion.

[panerd]

I disagree with this. I think there is absolutely nothing off about someone who can find joy in other people's happiness. As a Christian myself, yes I am biased in this. Still, if someone announced they were incredibly happy because they found love of someone else, a career they're passionate about or any number of things, I am going to be happy for them. I mean, I'm not going to have a party at my house, but in that moment, I will be genuinely happy for them.

I will piggyback on your finding the love of somebody else part. Suppose he falls in love with somebody who is completely wrong for him but he doesn't see it and is genuinely happy? There are two schools of thought. One is that he is happy and it is his life let him be. The other is that as a friend you have to help him out and show him the truth.

I am not his friend (not meant as a slam, I don't know him) so I choose option 1. But if I knew him well enough I would point out that he is just buying into one of the world's biggest cults. We laugh and see fallacies with Scientologists, and Christian Scientists, David Koresh, Osama Bin Laden, the followers of Thor, the Romans many Gods, etc but respect the same blind belief in Jesus Christ. Doesn't make any sense to someone who is not brainwashed into Christianity. Think about how much faith Tarcone has in the stories of Mohammad or Buddha, well that is how the non-Christians of the world see Jesus Christ and the whole entire world saw Jesus Christ 3000 years ago.

Kind of silly to not credit yourself for changing your life and instead give credit to a made up God. I don't think he is a moron like the poster from earlier in the thread but I think he is selling himself short for not crediting himself for the huge changes in his life and I think Christians in general are selling themselves short by not giving themselves for credit for loving and helping out people because of great character and instead choose to credit a person from 2000 years ago. Hate to break it to you guys but you did all of these great things on your own. Take some credit for it and be proud of yourselves! You can do everything good you claim relgion and Jesus cause you to do through your own free will. Not a slam, more of a wish that Christians would realize all of their morals and kindness and outlooks on life are because they are good people. No super power is causing it to happen, they are.

[CraigSca]

I will piggyback on your finding the love of somebody else part. Suppose he falls in love with somebody who is completely wrong for him but he doesn't see it and is genuinely happy? There are two schools of thought. One is that he is happy and it is his life let him be. The other is that as a friend you have to help him out and show him the truth.

I am not his friend (not meant as a slam, I don't know him) so I choose option 1. But if I knew him well enough I would point out that he is just buying into one of the world's biggest cults. We laugh and see fallacies with Scientologists, and Christian Scientists, David Koresh, Osama Bin Laden, the followers of Thor, the Romans many Gods, etc but respect the same blind belief in Jesus Christ. Doesn't make any sense to someone who is not brainwashed into Christianity. Think about how much faith Tarcone has in the stories of Mohammad or Buddha, well that is how the non-Christians of the world see Jesus Christ and the whole entire world saw Jesus Christ 3000 years ago.

Kind of silly to not credit yourself for changing your life and instead give credit to a made up God. I don't think he is a moron like the poster from earlier in the thread but I think he is selling himself short for not crediting himself for the huge changes in his life and I think Christians in general are selling themselves short by not giving themselves for credit for loving and helping out people because of great character and instead choose to credit a person from 2000 years ago. Hate to break it to you guys but you did all of these great things on your own. Take some credit for it and be proud of yourselves! You can do everything good you claim relgion and Jesus cause you to do through your own free will. Not a slam, more of a wish that Christians would realize all of their morals and kindness and outlooks on life are because they are good people. No super power is causing it to happen, they are.

Everything I have was given to me by God. Once we begin to think that it IS about us is when we begin to have problems.

Everyone who takes issue with religion needs to take a step back and realize it's not Jesus or God that they have the problem with, it's the people. Inherently, we are human - we get selfish, we like to be told how wonderful we are, we get greedy, etc. The problem is - once you have religious organization you, by default, have the human element and, again, the human element has fault.

Finally, because you heard about some church that protests against a dead soldier, or overheard someone say that all wars are because of religion, or read about some priest who got arrested for molestation - don't confuse that with what Jesus is all about, and don't use that as an excuse for not getting to know Him.

[Toddzilla]

Everyone who takes issue with religion needs to take a step back and realize it's not Jesus or God that they have the problem with, it's the people..QFT.

If Christians were more like Christ, maybe they wouldn't have such a bad rep.

[JediKooter]

I don't know if it was tarone's intention to start a debate, but, I wish tarcone well and hope that he does not throw common sense to the way side and doesn't turn into one of those people who won't give medical attention to their kids because Jesus will cure them or some other extreme things like that.

[MJ4H]

I'm sure his intention was to tell people he was saved. Generally speaking, that's what you are supposed to do when you are saved.

[Chief Rum]

I disagree with this. I think there is absolutely nothing off about someone who can find joy in other people's happiness. As a Christian myself, yes I am biased in this. Still, if someone announced they were incredibly happy because they found love of someone else, a career they're passionate about or any number of things, I am going to be happy for them. I mean, I'm not going to have a party at my house, but in that moment, I will be genuinely happy for them.

I think we're talking semantics here, and that you and I are actually happy on the same level, with maybe you getting a slightly higher vibe because it meshes with your own beliefs (validation, connection, etc., like if you came out and said you were dedicating your fandom to the Angels, that would give me a slightly higher vibe, lol).

I am talking about the people who take that validation/connection and are downright exuberant and super lovey about it. They are pushing it too far, just as people like SCgoatman are pushing it too far in the other end. In no way does tarcone's announcement call for the disgust and anger from SCgoatman nor the overwhelming "praise the Lord!" plaudits from some others, because tarcone is just some guy on a MB. Not to say we're none of us friends, we are, but there is a certain disconnect here that's not present in real life, and strong emotional responses (at least without other stronger or more present interaction) are signs of issues unrelated to MB life.

It should be as you and I have it. We're glad for tarcone, more in a "happy if he's happy" sorta way. But not more than that.

[Chief Rum]

Shit, the kid actually had a live grenade.

Okay, I gotta know. What'd he do with the grenade?

[Chief Rum]

Just speaking to some of the general thought here regarding the role "YOU" versus the role of "GOD" in the success and/or happiness one has in life, and also the concept of the Christian humanity being the ones responsible for the views of those on the outside, I will say this meshes a lot with my own views.

I actually believe in, and hope for the possibility of God, and I believe the events of the New Testament happened. But I believe that everything that has happened in the 2,000 years since then has warped God's intended vision, and that no one really knows anymore what that was. Organized religion, IMO, is one of the worst things man has ever come up with. If we could pass along the beliefs and the mores and the basic spirit of goodness for all mankind, without also a healthy truckload-full of bullshit, I would be much more content with spirituality than I am.

[CraigSca]

I am talking about the people who take that validation/connection and are downright exuberant and super lovey about it. They are pushing it too far, just as people like SCgoatman are pushing it too far in the other end. In no way does tarcone's announcement call for the disgust and anger from SCgoatman nor the overwhelming "praise the Lord!" plaudits from some others, because tarcone is just some guy on a MB. Not to say we're none of us friends, we are, but there is a certain disconnect here that's not present in real life, and strong emotional responses (at least without other stronger or more present interaction) are signs of issues unrelated to MB life.

It should be as you and I have it. We're glad for tarcone, more in a "happy if he's happy" sorta way. But not more than that.

I see what you're saying here, but as a "believer" this IS "more than that" since, in our faith, the belief in Christ, His works and message really IS everything. I've seen deeper conviction from others regarding agreement/disagreement over teams/players, etc., and that's okay, right? Frankly, to a believer this IS a big deal - and though I didn't say, "praise the Lord!" would I be wrong if I chose to?

[Chief Rum]

I see what you're saying here, but as a "believer" this IS "more than that" since, in our faith, the belief in Christ, His works and message really IS everything. I've seen deeper conviction from others regarding agreement/disagreement over teams/players, etc., and that's okay, right? Frankly, to a believer this IS a big deal - and though I didn't say, "praise the Lord!" would I be wrong if I chose to?

Wrong? No. Just as with tarcone, for me it's whatever toots your horn. If that works for you, fine and I am happy for you in the same way.

That said, I am still of the opinion that anyone who gets unreasonably happy that someone they barely know has committed to their faith is a little unbalanced by their own need for that faith.

Keep in mind, for more people within that faith, the "need for that faith" is a virtue. So perhaps this is not something you would view as a bad thing. For me, though, as a non-believer (or at least "non" to the extent of most everyday Christians), it's a break from the pragmatic norm I view as a baseline, where in some cases outliers are absolutely wonderful--but usually not.

[panerd]

Sorry but I guess I have to chime in again here. Cheif Rum is absolutely correct that due to the fact that Jesus Christ was mentioned there is far more elation, interest, and over blown response than had he posted "Last night I decided to get my life together and quit whoring around and drinking". I think Tarcone was a recognized enough poster that he would have gotten some "Right on responses" but not the elation of strangers and the amount of responses.

Sadly as big of ass as the guy who called him a moron was had he called anyone a fucking moron in any other thread he would not have been placed in the penalty box. But since it involved Jesus Christ it was a given about what was on the way. A serious question to the strong believers... Do you really like the fact that is so much harder to question religion than just about any other topic? If I were a strong believer I would welcome the challenge and be sad that my faith is always treated with some kid gloves by everybody when there is so many interesting and debatable ideas.

[CraigSca]

Wrong? No. Just as with tarcone, for me it's whatever toots your horn. If that works for you, fine and I am happy for you in the same way.

That said, I am still of the opinion that anyone who gets unreasonably happy that someone they barely know has committed to their faith is a little unbalanced by their own need for that faith.

Keep in mind, for more people within that faith, the "need for that faith" is a virtue. So perhaps this is not something you would view as a bad thing. For me, though, as a non-believer (or at least "non" to the extent of most everyday Christians), it's a break from the pragmatic norm I view as a baseline, where in some cases outliers are absolutely wonderful--but usually not.

I can understand that point of view. Certainly, I can take the "non-believer" stance with a lot of things that have nothing to do with Christianity - and our minds probably think the same way towards a lot of different things. However, to a believer, the concept of accepting Jesus as one's personal savior transcends all. It just can't be conveniently grouped into a pre-defined bucket like the rest of the every day things in the world.

One can certainly say, "oh, so-and-so is giving Joe Stranger a messageboard high-five because it just backs up his own beliefs and he therefore feels more secure in it." Gosh, I really hope my faith is stronger than that - if it relies solely on others for substance, it's really not faith at all.

CR - from your posts, you sound like you're sick of the human side of religion. There are a great many things in the church's history and the present day that dishearten me, only because man has screwed up (and we will continue to screw up). As in my earlier post, please don't let that distract you from wanting to learn more.

[CraigSca]

A serious question to the strong believers... Do you really like the fact that is so much harder to question religion than just about any other topic? If I were a strong believer I would welcome the challenge and be sad that my faith is always treated with some kid gloves by everybody when there is so many interesting and debatable ideas.

You know, it's funny, but I guess it all depends on perspective. As a believer, I sometimes feel that the only religion one can make fun of is Christianity. I mean, it's poked fun of quite often (just see the pic of the tiny Jesus statue on the bookcase earlier in the thread). Did I scream vengeance and hellfire when I saw that? No. I didn't see anyone else, either. Go figure.

I'm always up for a discussion on God and faith. You can ridicule me until the cows come home - it certainly comes with the territory. I will tell you one thing - the answers I give you probably won't smack you upside the head and cause you to believe. Belief in God is based on faith and faith inherently can't be proven or disproven. So, while I probably won't be able to convince you in any kind of debate, my hope would be only to make you think and realize that maybe God's message is a worthy one.

I'll also caveat with - I'm no theologian or Biblical scholar (though I do read it) - and there are others on here that probably know a lot more about the details than I do.

Also, if others have problems with this on the board, you can certainly PM me and we can "talk" there.

[Groundhog]

Everyone who takes issue with religion needs to take a step back and realize it's not Jesus or God that they have the problem with, it's the people. Inherently, we are human - we get selfish, we like to be told how wonderful we are, we get greedy, etc. The problem is - once you have religious organization you, by default, have the human element and, again, the human element has fault.

Very true that it's not Jesus or God that I have a problem with. The definition of religion extends far beyond Christianity.

Finally, because you heard about some church that protests against a dead soldier, or overheard someone say that all wars are because of religion, or read about some priest who got arrested for molestation - don't confuse that with what Jesus is all about, and don't use that as an excuse for not getting to know Him.

I agree that the actions of a minority shouldn't neccessarily reflect badly on the group as a whole, but that's certainly not my reason for not getting to know "Him" or somebody Else - whatever that even means.

[Klinglerware]

Sadly as big of ass as the guy who called him a moron was had he called anyone a fucking moron in any other thread he would not have been placed in the penalty box. But since it involved Jesus Christ it was a given about what was on the way.

I had the same feeling. I agree that the comment probably violated tenets of civility, which are grounds for penalty on this board. But, with that being said, incivility is only inconsistently punished. I would agree that he would be less likely to have been boxed if his comments were made in most any other thread.

[ISiddiqui]

I had the same feeling. I agree that the comment probably violated tenets of civility, which are grounds for penalty on this board. But, with that being said, incivility is only inconsistently punished. I would agree that he would be less likely to have been boxed if his comments were made in most any other thread.

+2

[Schmidty]

Sadly as big of ass as the guy who called him a moron was had he called anyone a fucking moron in any other thread he would not have been placed in the penalty box.

This has nothing to do with my affiliation, but I have always thought that somebody who is immature and trollish enough to simply call someone a "fucking moron" and then leave without any other comment deserves a boxing, and that includes anyone who is a known FOFCer. How is something that stupid and brutal not trollish and boxable?

Eh, anyway.

[RainMaker]

I agree with the latter paragraph of your post. As to your first paragraph, we probably wouldn't celebrate someone believing in unicorns, Santa Claus, etc....but I think the big difference there is that for the most part, we know that Christians have a good overall moral foundation. The same cannot be said for those who believe in the Tooth Fairy. In that respect, I think it's okay to tell someone good for you since you'll hopefully be a better person for society based upon our overall understanding of Christianity. Note I said overall, not every little thing.

I'm not sure what your second paragraph really means. If he's found peace within himself, even if it's a false peace, that's good right? The only downside I see is that if it is a peace based upon flawed principles then the fall could be much greater. That being said, I don't think we can disprove the existence of a God. There's a possibility they're right; I believe it is not probable, but there is still the possibility.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Christians make up the overwhelming majority of people in the U.S. prison system. You can look back to such times as the Inquisitions or Crusades. How people who dared to even question the Church were hung or burned. Red states, which have the highest concentration of evangelicals have higher crime per capita as well as teen pregnancies.

This isn't to say that other religions or non-religions don't have criminals and immoral people. In fact they have have quite a few. But what I'm saying is that I don't consider someone who is a Christian "morally" superior than someone who isn't. I also think morals are something personal. A Christian may believe it's immoral to masturbate. I for one think it's natural.

There's also a possibility that there is a giant flying turd in the Andromeda galaxy that is undetectable to our technology that secretly control the movements of everyone on this planet. You can't prove it's not there, so there is a possibility it exists. But that possibility is incredibly miniscule. I prefer to deal in facts. When there is evidence of a God, I'll be the first one to admit it's there.

[Groundhog]

This has nothing to do with my affiliation, but I have always thought that somebody who is immature and trollish enough to simply call someone a "fucking moron" and then leave without any other comment deserves a boxing, and that includes anyone who is a known FOFCer. How is something that stupid and brutal not trollish and boxable?

Eh, anyway.

I don't disagree with you, but the point stands that we've all seen it happen in many other threads without it leading to a boxing.

[Greyroofoo]

http://www.jinx.com/Content/Product/343p_0c_1b.jpg

http://www.kakool.com/files/images/jesus_5.jpg

[lighthousekeeper]

somebody who is immature and trollish enough to ...blahblahblah...and then leave without any other comment deserves a boxing

like tarcone, who gave birth to this bitchfest and hasn't commented since post #1, despite repeated requests to elaborate on his 'extreme whoring'. i'd be disappointed if he wasn't being literal and in fact did not participate in any extreme whoring in his life.

other working theory: (1) his wife caught him cheating (2) he makes post #1 (3) he makes sure his wife sees the post to get her off his back

[MJ4H]

Did you seriously just equate tarcone saying he was saved with SCwhatever calling him a fucking retard?

[Coffee Warlord]

http://www.jinx.com/Content/Product/343p_0c_1b.jpg

http://www.kakool.com/files/images/jesus_5.jpg

I would bet Jesus has Evasion. He wouldn't take any damage.

[JediKooter]

Christians definitely don't have it easy... ;)

[flounder]

Why is Pacman eating the Jews?

[Groundhog]

I always had my suspicions that Pacman was an anti-semite.

[Raiders Army]

I don't think that's necessarily true. Christians make up the overwhelming majority of people in the U.S. prison system. You can look back to such times as the Inquisitions or Crusades. How people who dared to even question the Church were hung or burned. Red states, which have the highest concentration of evangelicals have higher crime per capita as well as teen pregnancies.

This isn't to say that other religions or non-religions don't have criminals and immoral people. In fact they have have quite a few. But what I'm saying is that I don't consider someone who is a Christian "morally" superior than someone who isn't. I also think morals are something personal. A Christian may believe it's immoral to masturbate. I for one think it's natural.

There's also a possibility that there is a giant flying turd in the Andromeda galaxy that is undetectable to our technology that secretly control the movements of everyone on this planet. You can't prove it's not there, so there is a possibility it exists. But that possibility is incredibly miniscule. I prefer to deal in facts. When there is evidence of a God, I'll be the first one to admit it's there.

Okay. I think we're saying the same thing. Note that I said that Christians have a good OVERALL moral background. I'm sure you can point out the times that Christians have done wrong....however, I think that they've also done a lot of good in the world as well. The same cannot be said for the Tooth Fairy's worshippers who do things based on the Tooth Fairy's tenets.

Do you not recognize the difference? On the one hand you have people who have a set of beliefs that are ostensibly based on the Ten Commandments, which are a pretty good set of rules to follow. On the other hand, we don't know what the moral values of the Tooth Fairy or unicorns are. I was illustrating the difference when people congratulate someone for "finding God" versus (as you said) finding unicorns, the Tooth Fairy, or Santa Claus.

[lighthousekeeper]

Did you seriously just equate tarcone saying he was saved with SCwhatever calling him a fucking retard?

not particularly serious. :p

[ISiddiqui]

Ya, learn to take a joke there, jeez... I'm surprised anyone took that seriously.

[WSUCougar]

Sadly as big of ass as the guy who called him a moron was had he called anyone a fucking moron in any other thread he would not have been placed in the penalty box.
For what it's worth, I take things like that both at face value and in context. In this case it was so utterly uncalled for and over the line that it was an instantaneous decision. Religion had less to do with it than someone intruding on a "happy" thread and attacking the poster for no apparent reason other than to be mean-spirited. Pure trolling. Case closed.

[Chief Rum]

For what it's worth, I take things like that both at face value and in context. In this case it was so utterly uncalled for and over the line that it was an instantaneous decision. Religion had less to do with it than someone intruding on a "happy" thread and attacking the poster for no apparent reason other than to be mean-spirited. Pure trolling. Case closed.

But what makes it a happy thread? If tarcone makes the exact same post, but instead commits his faith to the Tooth Fairy or the Washington Redskins or the leftover chocolate cake in his fridge, SCgoatman probably doesn't get boxed.

I believe your reason, WSU. But I think the thread seemed so "happy" because it was filled with (mostly) other Christians congratulating tarcone for his decision, a self-serving support if well-meant, and the point that was made that this would not happen in other contexts is correct. SCgoatman is in the box because he challenged the groupthink of Christianity in a vulgar manner.

[NoMyths]

What's wonderful about this thread is that if there is a God he can clearly delineate between the folks who seem to have a moral center and those he'd burn or turn to salt.

I'm undoubtedly in the salt category, but I understand the fretting. There was a time most of this thread wouldn't have been muttered in serious adult company.

It's hard enough to be happy. Tarcone, if believing in God gives you hope and strength, good wishes. Zeus knows the bitterest here would love to have that kind of certainty.

[Lathum]

I had the same feeling. I agree that the comment probably violated tenets of civility, which are grounds for penalty on this board. But, with that being said, incivility is only inconsistently punished. I would agree that he would be less likely to have been boxed if his comments were made in most any other thread.

we all know there are different rules for different posters around here.

That being said I think Scgoatman should just be banned, he doesn't really add anything to the community

[DaddyTorgo]

we all know there are different rules for different posters around here.

That being said I think Scgoatman should just be banned, he doesn't really add anything to the community
:+1:

[DrAFTjunkie]

Okay, I gotta know. What'd he do with the grenade?


He never used it, and have never asked him about it. He (being half latino) was afiliated with well know local latino gang and had planned on using it if the shit ever hit the fan with thier rivals. Hell, I wanna know now...I'll ask him next time our kids have a playdate. He's far less touchy about his past now.

[flere-imsaho]

Perhaps it is, but it may also be about rooting out myths from society. Would we celebrate someone coming on this board and saying they believe in unicorns and fire breathing dragons? How about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy? Probably not.

I don't think those are fair comparisons. Christianity is a well-established, complex belief structure in a way that unicorns, fire breathing dragons, Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy are not. And I speak as someone who's not a big fan of organized religion in general.

And just because something helps someone find peace doesn't mean it's right. A labotomy could have the same effect on someone in finding peace. I certainly wouldn't recommend it to anyone I know.

A lobotomy is an extreme example, though. There are many ways for someone to find peace, and while I think we'd generally take issue with those that have clearly detrimental side effects (i.e. a lobotomy), I'm not convinced tarcone suddenly believing in Christ has a clear, demonstrable, and guaranteed downside. That's what makes it different. Perhaps an obvious negative example would be if he suddenly declared he was going to be a Scientologist.

Sadly as big of ass as the guy who called him a moron was had he called anyone a fucking moron in any other thread he would not have been placed in the penalty box.

I don't know. I think it's all about context. Usually around here we call each other fucking morons either a) in the midst of a long-standing debate that's gotten abrasive and where common principles are not shared (i.e. politics debates, but also plenty of sports ones) or b) as good-natured abuse. I don't think it's particularly common around here for someone to come completely out of left field and call someone else a fucking moron with absolutely no preamble.

For what it's worth, I take things like that both at face value and in context.

Ah so.

[EagleFan]

Saw him on a plane the other day, or maybe it was Elvis...

[lungs]

Instead of the tooth fairy or something like that, what if he announced his conversion to Islam? Would that change reactions from some?

[Klinglerware]

we all know there are different rules for different posters around here.



Of course, I think we've all accepted that. It is what it is.

That said, nothing wrong with calling the practice out, if we find issue with it...

[BYU 14]

But what makes it a happy thread? If tarcone makes the exact same post, but instead commits his faith to the Tooth Fairy or the Washington Redskins or the leftover chocolate cake in his fridge, SCgoatman probably doesn't get boxed.

I believe your reason, WSU. But I think the thread seemed so "happy" because it was filled with (mostly) other Christians congratulating tarcone for his decision, a self-serving support if well-meant, and the point that was made that this would not happen in other contexts is correct. SCgoatman is in the box because he challenged the groupthink of Christianity in a vulgar manner.

I don't completely agree, I am fairly religious but I also frequently debate the merits of religion and things the bible says with others from a scientific standpoint. I guess my stance would be somewhere around middle ground, somewhat skeptical, but open minded in that I enjoy going to church and I always take something out if it. Faith to me is important, no matter how it is manifested, again as long as it does not hurt, or intrude on others.

In regards to your examples, if someone posted any of them it most likely would have been as some kind or parody and solicited a like reaction, which most likely would not have been anywhere as near mean spirited and if it was would likely have been in a TIC context.

Since religion is a lot more serious to some people than Chocolate Cake, the Redskins or the Tooth Fairy, a better comparison may have been if someone had posted about the joy they have found in being a new parent or getting engaged or seeing their child graduate from college. If someone had just come out of left field and called them a fucking retard with no provocation, then the exact same thing that happened to SCgoatman, would have and should have happened to them.

I was not offended at all he attacked religion, because I really don't care and have thick skin. I was offended he attacked someone who made life altering changes, was happy about it and just felt the desire to express that to a community he belongs and probably considers several others friends. There are also plenty of non-believers in the thread, who expressed their stance in an articulate, respectful manner and yet still wished Tarcone well. To me that they desereve respect for that, because they gave respect, even if they think religion is a joke.

All in all, it's just not a big deal however you find happiness as long as it is not harmful to those around you. Live and let live and if you can't be anything but intentionally over the top malicious then consider just moving along.

[Marc Vaughan]

I don't think those are fair comparisons. Christianity is a well-established, complex belief structure in a way that unicorns, fire breathing dragons, Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy are not. And I speak as someone who's not a big fan of organized religion in general.
They were used in an off the cuff manner by people for amusements value imho - if you want more serious figures then consider failed (ie. out of use) religions, any from the medieval times would suffice to give you what was a well established, complex belief structure that is accepted today as no more 'real' than faries or Santa.

I'm not convinced tarcone suddenly believing in Christ has a clear, demonstrable, and guaranteed downside. That's what makes it different. Perhaps an obvious negative example would be if he suddenly declared he was going to be a Scientologist.
I've seen negative aspects to Christianity in some believers - normally this equates to them doing nothing to improve their situation because its 'Gods will' or equating everything bad to the work of the devil and everything good to 'God' rather than accepting that they have free will and can influence things themselves.

(please note these aren't criticism of Christianity itself (and indeed can be applied to all relgiions) - just comments on mankind when given a handy excuse to lean upon)

[AENeuman]

Since this thread, for the most part, has been positive and thoughtful, I thought this might be the place to ask a few questions that have been rolling around in my head recently....


I pray for everyone on this board to find Jesus Christ. Hell is a terrible alternative.


I've always been curious about this sentiment. If a believer that believes (to some degree) in order to prevent and/or gain something (eternal reward) the same as a believer with no expectation (worthiness) of reward?

What other, if any, function does the Jesus story serve other than the way to decide ones eternal fate? If so, how important are the other functions compared to eternal fate? Are they dependent upon believing in eternal rewards?

Thanks.

[Marc Vaughan]

I've always been curious about this sentiment. If a believer that believes (to some degree) in order to prevent and/or gain something (eternal reward) the same as a believer with no expectation (worthiness) of reward?

As I understand it Christians are meant to fear God (as well as love him) and its seen as perfectly acceptable to become a Christian out of fear - indeed a lot of churches do big 'end-times' promotions for just this reason.

(similarly many are presently encouraging non-believers to God through fear of job loss etc.)

Its always been one of my big problems with 'organised religion' along with the rather obvious .... if the word of God is so inspiring why is church so bleeding boring (and yeah I've been to a big range of churches from traditional to happy clappy).

PS - But anyway congrats for being saved, I hope it brings you much success and happiness in life - I really don't want to turn this into a religious debate thread ... apologies for taking it off course.

[RainMaker]

I pray for everyone on this board to find Jesus Christ. Hell is a terrible alternative.

I pray for everyone on this board to open a Biology book.

[RendeR]

I pray for everyone on this board to open a Biology book.


Thats not entirely a workable analogy though RM. Biology and Philoshophy have very little in common.

[RendeR]

But what makes it a happy thread? If tarcone makes the exact same post, but instead commits his faith to the Tooth Fairy or the Washington Redskins or the leftover chocolate cake in his fridge, SCgoatman probably doesn't get boxed.

I believe your reason, WSU. But I think the thread seemed so "happy" because it was filled with (mostly) other Christians congratulating tarcone for his decision, a self-serving support if well-meant, and the point that was made that this would not happen in other contexts is correct. SCgoatman is in the box because he challenged the groupthink of Christianity in a vulgar manner.


I think what cougar is trying to explain is that he was boxed for trolling, specific over the top trolling. It wasn't based on the thread topic at all.

[RendeR]

Saw him on a plane the other day, or maybe it was Elvis...


Elvis isn't dead, he just went home.

[Kodos]

I have trouble respecting a God who tries to gain followers through fear. I'd have an easier time with one who says "Come with me if you'd like to" than one who says "Come with me or else".

[RendeR]

I have trouble respecting a God who tries to gain followers through fear. I'd have an easier time with one who says "Come with me" than one who says "Come with me or else".


Its one of the greatest fallacies of any "God's love" based faith.

[CraigSca]

Its one of the greatest fallacies of any "God's love" based faith.

Not sure I understand why.

According to the Bible, God gave the world to humanity. Humanity screwed up by sinning, and we are all born with it. Sin is an affront to God's perfection and is punishable by death. Even so, God loves us and sent his Son to die for us. Now, all we have to do is accept this through faith.

Sounds like He digs us a lot.

[CraigSca]

I have trouble respecting a God who tries to gain followers through fear. I'd have an easier time with one who says "Come with me if you'd like to" than one who says "Come with me or else".

I wouldn't say God is trying to gain followers through fear. That's kind of what Marc said - though I'm sure there are probably churches out there that go about such things.

And, in a way, God IS saying, "Come with me if you'd like to." He's offering you the choice, and it sounds like you made it. I mean, if He really wanted to He could surely do much more than write a book and leave the choice in your hands, couldn't He?

[DrAFTjunkie]

Elvis isn't dead, he just went home.

In a series of books I've been reading (the Sookie Stackhouse Chronicles by Charlaine Harris) Elvis is actually a vampire, which she uses to explain the mysterious sightings. Great books BTW, much better than the Tru Blood adaptation on HBO.

[KWhit]

I wouldn't say God is trying to gain followers through fear. That's kind of what Marc said - though I'm sure there are probably churches out there that go about such things.

And, in a way, God IS saying, "Come with me if you'd like to." He's offering you the choice, and it sounds like you made it. I mean, if He really wanted to He could surely do much more than write a book and leave the choice in your hands, couldn't He?

No, what God is saying is, "Believe in this book, even though its contents go against nearly every widely regarded scientific fact known to man. If you don't believe it you will go to Hell."

Yes, if there were really a God, he could do a Hell of a lot better at letting us understand how this all fits together, but most of the Bible sounds a lot more like Apollo pulling the sun across the sky in his chariot than anything based in reality as we are able to perceive it using the senses "God" gave us.

[boberot]

There was an ironclad inevitability about the direction this thread turned. There are dozens of religious ideology threads floating around here. I suppose I am naive and idealistic, but can't one take five seconds to surmise the intent of this thread and either say "Cool, man, great for you" or just move on? The thread isn't called, "I've been saved, let's discuss your thoughts on God AGAIN."

The whole point is that Tarcone has made a profound change in his life. He feels his life is much better and he wanted to share that with the community.

If the thread was called "I gave up crack and got a full-time job" or "I feel great since I started studying Buddhism and running 5 miles a day" or "My life is terrific since I became a vegan and started receiving treatment for depressions" I'd like to think it would not invite the same flurry of scrutiny and dismissive responses.

Anyway . . . .

[Kodos]

I also have trouble with a merciful god condemning folks to hell for eternity based on a very finite lifespan. Seems to me that mercy would be to let nonbelievers just die, rather than torturing them for all of time.

[Kodos]

There was an ironclad inevitability about the direction this thread turned. There are dozens of religious ideology threads floating around here. I suppose I am naive and idealistic, but can't one take five seconds to surmise the intent of this thread and either say "Cool, man, great for you" or just move on? The thread isn't called, "I've been saved, let's discuss your thoughts on God AGAIN."

The whole point is that Tarcone has made a profound change in his life. He feels his life is much better and he wanted to share that with the community.

If the thread was called "I gave up crack and got a full-time job" or "I feel great since I started studying Buddhism and running 5 miles a day" or "My life is terrific since I became a vegan and started receiving treatment for depressions" I'd like to think it would not invite the same flurry of scrutiny and dismissive responses.

Anyway . . . .

Saying "hell is a terrible alternative" was pretty much an invitation for people to debate the merits of religious belief. IMO.

[BrianD]

I'd be curious to hear about the process from going from not being saved to being saved. When you hear people talk about out, they always talk as if a light switch got flipped and enlightenment happened. Is this really how it works? Does something just "click" and everything makes sense? Or is this a longer process of just deciding to believe and noticing later that life has gotten so much better?

I'm the type of person that is spiritual but not necessarily religious, and I'd love to hear how people made that change.

[KWhit]

There was an ironclad inevitability about the direction this thread turned. There are dozens of religious ideology threads floating around here. I suppose I am naive and idealistic, but can't one take five seconds to surmise the intent of this thread and either say "Cool, man, great for you" or just move on? The thread isn't called, "I've been saved, let's discuss your thoughts on God AGAIN."

The whole point is that Tarcone has made a profound change in his life. He feels his life is much better and he wanted to share that with the community.

If the thread was called "I gave up crack and got a full-time job" or "I feel great since I started studying Buddhism and running 5 miles a day" or "My life is terrific since I became a vegan and started receiving treatment for depressions" I'd like to think it would not invite the same flurry of scrutiny and dismissive responses.

Anyway . . . .

Well, the part that always gets my hackles up about conversations/threads like this are statements where people basically tell me I'm going to hell.

I pray for everyone on this board to find Jesus Christ. Hell is a terrible alternative.

That kind of stuff makes my blood boil.

[Lathum]

Well, the part that always gets my hackles up about conversations/threads like this are statements where people basically tell me I'm going to hell.



That kind of stuff makes my blood boil.

call him a fucking retard and lets see what happens.

[KWhit]

call him a fucking retard and lets see what happens.

Heh. Nah. I don't think he's a fucking retard. Just misguided and gullible.

:)

[CraigSca]

Well, the part that always gets my hackles up about conversations/threads like this are statements where people basically tell me I'm going to hell.



That kind of stuff makes my blood boil.

Why? It's all make-believe anyway, right? So, you infer you're going to a place that doesn't exist. What's the big deal?

[LloydLungs]

Saying "hell is a terrible alternative" was pretty much an invitation for people to debate the merits of religious belief. IMO.

Yes, actually... given that the original poster announced that a decent chunk of this board and a huge chunk of the world's population is going to hell, the fact that there has been only ONE extremely hostile comment in 145+ responses speaks extremely well for FOFC. If all that results is some religious debate, color me impressed. Try taking that sentiment elsewhere on the net and see what it gets you.

[Klinglerware]

Why? It's all make-believe anyway, right? So, you infer you're going to a place that doesn't exist. What's the big deal?

Power.

[Raiders Army]

I have trouble respecting a God who tries to gain followers through fear. I'd have an easier time with one who says "Come with me if you'd like to" than one who says "Come with me or else".

I'm just the opposite. I'd rather have a God who gains followers through terror and fear than peace and love; at least that's more believable.

What would be more realistic? A truly omnipotent being who needs followers to love him for some inexplicable reason or a truly omnipotent being who wants followers to fear him so he can rule over their lives?

[CraigSca]

Power.

I'm sorry - you'll have to help me out on this one - not sure I get what you're driving at.

[JediKooter]

Ok, is there some sort of mandatory black out period or something when someone has just been saved?

I sure would like to see tarcone at least make a comment or two regarding some of the questions he was asked. Otherwise, now it's just starting seem like a drive by prothlesizing.

[JediKooter]

I'm just the opposite. I'd rather have a God who gains followers through terror and fear than peace and love; at least that's more believable.

What would be more realistic? A truly omnipotent being who needs followers to love him for some inexplicable reason or a truly omnipotent being who wants followers to fear him so he can rule over their lives?

Old Testament fan? :D

[CraigSca]

I'm just the opposite. I'd rather have a God who gains followers through terror and fear than peace and love; at least that's more believable.

What would be more realistic? A truly omnipotent being who needs followers to love him for some inexplicable reason or a truly omnipotent being who wants followers to fear him so he can rule over their lives?

I'd like a God that hands out cash, but that's not the way it is.

You have to understand where I'm coming from - God is THE supreme being who created everything.

So, we're asking the Creator of all things to bend to what OUR perception of a worthy God is so that WE will believe in Him?

[RainMaker]

Thats not entirely a workable analogy though RM. Biology and Philoshophy have very little in common.

The Bible discusses a lot of Biology from the age of the Earth, to the Sun, to how long the planet took to be created.

[RainMaker]

I'd like a God that hands out cash, but that's not the way it is.

You have to understand where I'm coming from - God is THE supreme being who created everything.

So, we're asking the Creator of all things to bend to what OUR perception of a worthy God is so that WE will believe in Him?

Who created him?

[RainMaker]

The one thing I never understood about "being saved" was the idea that God cared. I mean he has this enormous Universe he created which we are hardly a speck of dust on. He spent billions of years just fucking around with sludge, then various life forms. Finally he creates apes for awhile, but got bored and decided that he would morph us into what we are today over the course of a few million years.

After all this, are we really to believe that he cares about the day to day happenings of individuals? Seems a tad narcissistic to believe that with all these things on his plate, he's concerned about whether you got laid or had a beer last night.

[CraigSca]

Who created him?

When did time begin? When will it end?

A lot of questions just don't make sense.

[ISiddiqui]

So, we're asking the Creator of all things to bend to what OUR perception of a worthy God is so that WE will believe in Him?

Some would argue we already do that ;).

[boberot]

Well, the part that always gets my hackles up about conversations/threads like this are statements where people basically tell me I'm going to hell.



That kind of stuff makes my blood boil.

I don't think he meant to be provocative. I think, in balance, his post is about his life taking a profound turn for the better. It's a joyful post, not a wrathful or condemning post.

When he typed "I hope you guys find Jesus," in my mind it had about as much malice as somebody saying, "I hope you guys listen to the new Los Campesinos album. It's amazing."

I suppose you could focus in on that one point, but I don't think that's REALLY his point.

[CraigSca]

Some would argue we already do that ;).

/agreed :)

[RainMaker]

When did time begin? When will it end?

A lot of questions just don't make sense.

According to the Bible, 6000 years ago was when things began. For when it will end, there are a lot of different answers to that in the Bible. Guess you just have to pick whichever contradiction you think is best.

[Coffee Warlord]

When did time begin? When will it end?

A lot of questions just don't make sense.

That's because most of us see time as a linear progression of cause and effect. Actually time is more like a big ball. A big ball of timey-wimey wibbly-wobbly...stuff.

[JediKooter]

When did time begin? When will it end?

A lot of questions just don't make sense.

Well, good thing we have had Einstein, Newton, Salk and a host of others that tried to answer those difficult questions.

[CraigSca]

Well, good thing we have had Einstein, Newton, Salk and a host of others that tried to answer those difficult questions.

Absolutely, and I think it would be cool if those questions are someday answered.

[Klinglerware]

I'm sorry - you'll have to help me out on this one - not sure I get what you're driving at.

As you suggest, in the religious context, a non-Christian shouldn't care if a Christian tells him/her that they're going to hell, since according to that non-believer, hell shouldn't actually exist.

But, as mentioned in an earlier post, religion is also a manifestation of the worldly. In the case of the USA, Christianity is the dominant religion. Though the strict secular nature of the country's governance is generally accepted, the respect accorded to the secular state varies from region to region. There is a small but significant number of Christians who channel their beliefs/ideologies into political action in ways that seem threatening to the secular state. They have every right to be politically active, but that activity can be considered threatening by some secularists.

What Tarcone said was probably innocent, and I am glad that he's doing what he needs to do. But, in the context of the type of power-relations in some parts of the country where non-religious folks have traditionally and constantly had to accept what they have to accept from the majority (from the mundane "playing along to get along" situations like participating in grace before meals instead of raising a stink, to the more significant reintroduction of creationism of some form in science curricula to name a few examples), I also do understand why a non-believer can get upset at Tarcone's comments.

[CraigSca]

As you suggest, in the religious context, a non-Christian shouldn't care if a Christian tells him/her that they're going to hell, since according to that non-believer, hell shouldn't actually exist.

But, as mentioned in an earlier post, religion is also a manifestation of the worldly. In the case of the USA, Christianity is the dominant religion. Though the strict secular nature of the country's governance is generally accepted, the respect accorded to the secular state varies from region to region. There is a small but significant number of Christians who channel their beliefs/ideologies into political action in ways that seem threatening to the secular state. They have every right to be politically active, but that activity can be considered threatening by some secularists.

What Tarcone said was probably innocent, and I am glad that he's doing what he needs to do. But, in the context of the type of power-relations in some parts of the country where non-religious folks have traditionally had to accept what they have to accept from the majority (creationism of some form in science curricula to name one example), I also do understand why a non-believer can get upset at Tarcone's comments.

I can understand this, though it's certainly a two-way street. As a Christian I certainly feel threatened by the secularists and their political activity (and, just like Christians, they have every right to this activity).

I've noticed that a lot of the barbs directed at me are science related, and I have no problem with that. I believe there are a lot of things we just don't understand at this time.

Regarding schools, I have no problem with them offering a curriculum based on science as we know it. It's our best guess - so be it.

[Klinglerware]

I can understand this, though it's certainly a two-way street. As a Christian I certainly feel threatened by the secularists and their political activity (and, just like Christians, they have every right to this activity).

I've noticed that a lot of the barbs directed at me are science related, and I have no problem with that. I believe there are a lot of things we just don't understand at this time.

Regarding schools, I have no problem with them offering a curriculum based on science as we know it. It's our best guess - so be it.

I agree with you--everyone has the right to leverage their political power, exercise their free speech, etc. I just wanted to point out how they may be perceived by those on the other size (and as you mention perception is a two-way street).

[DrAFTjunkie]

Firstly, I'm a non-christian. I don't believe that Christ is my savior, and the bible is nothing more than fiction/propaganda, IMO. I lean toward scientific theory to make sense of most of life's questions.

There are a lot of things that can be explained by scientic theory. But there a lot of things that cannot. Tarcone is being thrashed relentlessly for his beliefs in christian theories, but the thrashers are acting just as preachy as he was. His "hell" comment is subjective and wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. Maybe he meant the hell that was his former life. He never said that we're all gonna burn. I've seen some of you folks trampling all over him and criticizing his new-found stength. It doesn't matter why, or how...the guy has turned his life around.

A lot of the scientific juggernauts have rather large holes in thier theories, as does the bible. Darwin's theories have been called into question lately, what with the weird bugs and their non Darwinistic form of evolution.

The truth is, that none of us will evr truely "know." We'll cling to beliefs and theories to try and make sense of it all, but "it all" is far too complex for our human minds to every fully comprehend. Cut the guy some slack and be happy that there's one less reprobate in the world. As I said, I don't think it matters why. He's changed and that's good.

[Toddzilla]

As you suggest, in the religious context, a non-Christian shouldn't care if a Christian tells him/her that they're going to hell, since according to that non-believer, hell shouldn't actually exist.:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: That is completely and uncategorically wrong. And insulting to boot.

When a christian tells someone that they are going to hell, what they are saying is this: "I am right, and you are wrong, and because of your shortcomings/ignorance you deserve to be punished for all of eternity."

It is a staggeringly opinionated, judgmental, and arrogant statement. To believe that their god - or Jesus - or whatever - is the only real god and all others are false, and whose followers will suffer? It is hypocrisy at its worst.

At the point tarcone said he wished everyone would believe exactly like him or suffer the alternative, he stopped being just happy for himself and instead judged all of us.

I'll stop here before I earn myself a vacation as well... :rant:

[AENeuman]

The one thing I never understood about "being saved" was the idea that God cared.

Another way of asking that question might be: Why do believers care about converting non-believers?

Granted a lot would say to share the love and joy they have. But the psychological aspect also cannot be ignored. Getting people to share your belief in the unbelievable makes it less unbelievable.

What if I live the same lifestyle as tarcone except i do not believe, I do not act out of a fear or love of the eternal. Would that life lead be considered any less spiritual or worthy of rewards? What if religion was just a means for something bigger, and now we have other means to achieve the same thing, without so much damage? Shouldn't we let go of religions?

[RainMaker]

I can understand this, though it's certainly a two-way street. As a Christian I certainly feel threatened by the secularists and their political activity (and, just like Christians, they have every right to this activity).

I've noticed that a lot of the barbs directed at me are science related, and I have no problem with that. I believe there are a lot of things we just don't understand at this time.

Regarding schools, I have no problem with them offering a curriculum based on science as we know it. It's our best guess - so be it.

What is threatening to you from secularists? It seems that the secularists want everyone to just do what they want and Christians want to control what other can do.

[Klinglerware]

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: That is completely and uncategorically wrong. And insulting to boot.



Ha ha, it seems that an atheist just got insulted by another atheist (okay, I'm really an agnostic, leaning towards atheism). ;)


I stand by my statement. If I don't believe in god, why should I care what Christians or anybody else says about god? But what does matter is how the dominant religion can impact my day to day life--sometimes it doesn't at all, sometimes it matters a great deal.

An additional edit to add: the differences in opinions we have probably stem from the differences between atheists and agnostics. I remember someone telling me some time ago that agnostics were the most arrogant of them all, since they are "too above it all to even bother defining their beliefs". I generally disagree with this, but I do understand the perception...

[CraigSca]

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: That is completely and uncategorically wrong. And insulting to boot.

When a christian tells someone that they are going to hell, what they are saying is this: "I am right, and you are wrong, and because of your shortcomings/ignorance you deserve to be punished for all of eternity."

It is a staggeringly opinionated, judgmental, and arrogant statement. To believe that their god - or Jesus - or whatever - is the only real god and all others are false, and whose followers will suffer? It is hypocrisy at its worst.

At the point tarcone said he wished everyone would believe exactly like him or suffer the alternative, he stopped being just happy for himself and instead judged all of us.

I'll stop here before I earn myself a vacation as well... :rant:


1. I never said that "because of your shortcomings or ignorance you deserve to be punished for all eternity." I'm just saying what the Bible says. The Bible says we all have shortcomings and the only way to get "right" with God is by faith in Jesus. Do I think you serve to be punished for all eternity? I can't make that judgment.

2. The height of arrogance: we all have our beliefs. To not believe is a belief as well.

[lungs]

Another way of asking that question might be: Why do believers care about converting non-believers?


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[CraigSca]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Yes - I get Christian bonus bucks if I sign-up 5 FOFC members! Who wants a membership form?! :)

[RainMaker]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Pat Robertson is worth hundreds of millions. Lives on a mountain in a mansion with a private air strip. But he's really just in it for the salvation. :lol:

[bignej]

A lot of the scientific juggernauts have rather large holes in thier theories, as does the bible. Darwin's theories have been called into question lately, what with the weird bugs and their non Darwinistic form of evolution.

I saw the article you are referring to with the helmet fly's or whatever. This doesn't actually contradict the theory of evolution as much as it helps validate another theory(cant remember the name).

I will also say that its not very fair to compare a scientific theory supported by evidence and tested to a book that is essentially a hole with very few real world references that make people think its a textbook. The bible is nothing but stories that give promises of rainbows, puppies and sunshine. All vague promises. This morning I saw a billboard that said, "He is the Answer". What the hell does that mean? Its like a damn horoscope.

[Mustang]

Otherwise, now it's just starting seem like a drive by prothlesizing.

I'd laugh if in the end, we find out that Tarcone's post was just a troll attempt. Hey, watch what happens when I post that I've been saved.

If that happens, then Goat's comment will probably be shared by a few people.

[CraigSca]

Another way of asking that question might be: Why do believers care about converting non-believers?

Granted a lot would say to share the love and joy they have. But the psychological aspect also cannot be ignored. Getting people to share your belief in the unbelievable makes it less unbelievable.

What if I live the same lifestyle as tarcone except i do not believe, I do not act out of a fear or love of the eternal. Would that life lead be considered any less spiritual or worthy of rewards? What if religion was just a means for something bigger, and now we have other means to achieve the same thing, without so much damage? Shouldn't we let go of religions?

I already addressed this earlier in the thread (I think, anyway). But, bear with me here - let's just say for a second that I'm right. So...in my heart I know the one way to get to heaven is to believe in Jesus Christ, and Christ himself states that he's the only way. So, I believe in a heaven and a hell - and I have friends and family that I love dearly...wouldn't it behoove me to tell them about God/Jesus?

While it's hard to believe for the non-believer (hey, there MUST be some ulterior motive - money! power!), sometimes it's as simple as that.

Mind you, this is all with the caveat I spoke of earlier (probably on page 1 or 2) about man and humanity. Once you add man to the equation, there is the potential for all kind of garbage to occur. However, the message behind it still remains.

[Marc Vaughan]

No, what God is saying is, "Believe in this book, even though its contents go against nearly every widely regarded scientific fact known to man. If you don't believe it you will go to Hell."

To put a more human front on things ... most Christians believe in a loving 'fatherly' God and ascribe fatherlike characteristics to him with us as his children.

The idea is that he welcomes us with open arms back into the church family, however it appears there is a point at which our hearts harden to him and he accepts that we will never accept him, effectively turning our backs on us forever.

This is what many churches believe is 'Hell' - that is dying without knowing God and thus being condemned to never know him, its not a fire and brimstone place - more a self chosen prison without your heavenly father.

(personally I have a hard time ascribing fatherly aspects to an omnipotent diety who has regularly done such things as 'wipe out nearly all life on the planet in a flood' as part of his ocassional daily routine ;) )

[bignej]

1. I never said that "because of your shortcomings or ignorance you deserve to be punished for all eternity." I'm just saying what the Bible says. The Bible says we all have shortcomings and the only way to get "right" with God is by faith in Jesus. Do I think you serve to be punished for all eternity? I can't make that judgment.

2. The height of arrogance: we all have our beliefs. To not believe is a belief as well.


To not believe is to admit ignorance. Its not the same thing. Its not a belief. Religions use convenient answers. Why is the sky blue? God did it. Why did all those people die in the hurricane? God has a plan. Why can't I masturbate? Its selfish and sinful. Atheists and agnostics choose to just wait for the answers and realize that its OK to not know.

[CraigSca]

Pat Robertson is worth hundreds of millions. Lives on a mountain in a mansion with a private air strip. But he's really just in it for the salvation. :lol:

And your point is? We could also list CEOs from charities that siphon funds, or, heaven forbid, politicians that accept kickbacks. I already said that we're all human - we're all greedy, we're all selfish to a degree, we all have our faults. Pat Robertson's no better than me or you (and I'm sure a lot would say he's worse than us, but who are we to judge, right?).

[bignej]

I meant to add to that last post is basically there are 2 different kinds of people. Those that have have an answer and those that don't. Those that don't may or may not research them but they don't need some lame explanation to call it a day.

[RendeR]

2. The height of arrogance: we all have our beliefs. To not believe is a belief as well.


this is wrong.

To not believe is by definition, to question. it is not a belief in and of itself.

True and pure Atheism is indeed a belief, the belief that there is NO god or high power in the universe.

But simply not believing is ont a belief system, its a position floating amongst all the belief systems.

[lungs]

Yes - I get Christian bonus bucks if I sign-up 5 FOFC members! Who wants a membership form?! :)

Yeah, I was talking more about leadership of the church.

My dad's church meets in homes. While I'm not a member and think they have a few kooky things, I always respect that they don't baptize until adulthood and don't beg for money every turn.

[Marc Vaughan]

I'd like a God that hands out cash, but that's not the way it is.
According to some late night cable TV I've seen while working there is one out there ..

Apparently he's the God of the bible but appears to be available only via. subscription and regular payments to specific ministries ;)

[JediKooter]

I'd laugh if in the end, we find out that Tarcone's post was just a troll attempt. Hey, watch what happens when I post that I've been saved.

If that happens, then Goat's comment will probably be shared by a few people.

I'm begining to think that's what it is.

If so, then would Goat be unboxed????

[bignej]

True and pure Atheism is indeed a belief, the belief that there is NO god or high power in the universe.


Not true. Denying God exists based on observations isn't a belief. Atheism isn't a religion where people blindly accept no God exists. Just like Catholics and protestants are all Christians. Anyone who doesn't believe in a theistic God IS an atheist. The includes all you agnostics. Atheists is not a closed minded system. If God shows his face tomorrow I assure you I will no longer be an atheist.

[RainMaker]

And your point is? We could also list CEOs from charities that siphon funds, or, heaven forbid, politicians that accept kickbacks. I already said that we're all human - we're all greedy, we're all selfish to a degree, we all have our faults. Pat Robertson's no better than me or you (and I'm sure a lot would say he's worse than us, but who are we to judge, right?).

That's not true. The average CEO for a non-profit makes $150k. They aren't living in huge mansions and flying private planes on to their property.

Robertson is a shitstain to the highest degree. Goes on TV begging people for cash to help the poor while he sits on a pile of dough. He pushes pseudo-science into the schools and discrimination in society.

[CraigSca]

That's not true. The average CEO for a non-profit makes $150k. They aren't living in huge mansions and flying private planes on to their property.

Robertson is a shitstain to the highest degree. Goes on TV begging people for cash to help the poor while he sits on a pile of dough. He pushes pseudo-science into the schools and discrimination in society.

I'd venture to say the average pastor doesn't make that much money either.

But really, I'm not defending him nor am I a fan of his.

[Marc Vaughan]

After all this, are we really to believe that he cares about the day to day happenings of individuals? Seems a tad narcissistic to believe that with all these things on his plate, he's concerned about whether you got laid or had a beer last night.

One reason I don't believe in a 'personal' God rather than one who made us, gave us freewill and let us get on with things is simply the following -

Two sports teams, both full of christians who prayed for victory before the match - why does one team win, the other lose (similarly I remember reading reports on the shock of English troops during World War One when they realised that the German soldiers weren't baby eating humans but were also Christians who believed that God was on their side).

Only one set of prayers can be answered obviously and expecting both to be answered just isn't practical/possible - yet we have sportsmen and women frequently thanking God for their achievements ... yes we get it God created us all, but its your dedication and perseverance which gave you victory - promote that.

It should be a victory for mankind and used to inspire others to also try hard at what they do imho rather than just offer prayers up to God and expect him to do the hard work ...

If people didn't truly fall for the pray and it'll all be ok, you wouldn't get half as many Cable Preachers asking people to send in their $14.99 for their latest instructions on salvation/finding success/spouse/whatever.

[Marc Vaughan]

1. I never said that "because of your shortcomings or ignorance you deserve to be punished for all eternity." I'm just saying what the Bible says. The Bible says we all have shortcomings and the only way to get "right" with God is by faith in Jesus. Do I think you serve to be punished for all eternity? I can't make that judgment.

Not to be pedantic but you already have made that judgement - you decided the bible is correct, therefore you've decided that everyone who doesn't believe in it is unsaved ...

(personally I have my own faith and really couldn't care less what anyone else believes will happen to me - each person will recieve their own judgement and I'm content in recieving what is mine and fully expect to have a few choice words with God once I get there ... not least that next time I want a d**n instruction manual rather than having to make things up as I go along ;) )

[RainMaker]

One reason I don't believe in a 'personal' God rather than one who made us, gave us freewill and let us get on with things is simply the following -

Two sports teams, both full of christians who prayed for victory before the match - why does one team win, the other lose (similarly I remember reading reports on the shock of English troops during World War One when they realised that the German soldiers weren't baby eating humans but were also Christians who believed that God was on their side).

Only one set of prayers can be answered obviously and expecting both to be answered just isn't practical/possible - yet we have sportsmen and women frequently thanking God for their achievements ... yes we get it God created us all, but its your dedication and perseverance which gave you victory - promote that.

It should be a victory for mankind and used to inspire others to also try hard at what they do imho rather than just offer prayers up to God and expect him to do the hard work ...

If people didn't truly fall for the pray and it'll all be ok, you wouldn't get half as many Cable Preachers asking people to send in their $14.99 for their latest instructions on salvation/finding success/spouse/whatever.

Same can be said for a lot of events. Why does a sweet little girl get taken, molested, and buried alive in a sexual predators front yard? God can "save" people, but not her? Why don't we ever hear answers for this when it comes to God?

It's why I was pissed to hear all the "Miracle on the Hudson" talk last week. It wasn't a miracle, it was a kickass pilot. If he had crashed the plane, would God have been responsible? Or does he only get credit for the stuff that goes right?

None of it makes sense.

[Lathum]

Thats why God works in mysterious ways

[RendeR]

Not true. Denying God exists based on observations isn't a belief. Atheism isn't a religion where people blindly accept no God exists. Just like Catholics and protestants are all Christians. Anyone who doesn't believe in a theistic God IS an atheist. The includes all you agnostics. Atheists is not a closed minded system. If God shows his face tomorrow I assure you I will no longer be an atheist.


We're not talking about what is a religion, we're talking about having a "belief" Atheism IS a belief system.

Atheism is not a religion, nor a dogma, but it IS a belief. Atheists choose to "believe" there is no theistic god.

You can't just total up religious followers on one side and everyone else on the other, thats not how it works.

[Toddzilla]

this is wrong.

To not believe is by definition, to question. it is not a belief in and of itself.

True and pure Atheism is indeed a belief, the belief that there is NO god or high power in the universe.

But simply not believing is ont a belief system, its a position floating amongst all the belief systems.well put, sir.

[Bad-example]

Thats why God works in mysterious ways

:lol:

[Groundhog]

Atheism is not a religion, nor a dogma, but it IS a belief. Atheists choose to "believe" there is no theistic god.


I don't choose to believe there is no theistic god. I find it IMPOSSIBLE to choose otherwise.

I struggle to define a lack of belief as a belief system.

[Toddzilla]

Not true. Denying God exists based on observations isn't a belief. Atheism isn't a religion where people blindly accept no God exists. Just like Catholics and protestants are all Christians. Anyone who doesn't believe in a theistic God IS an atheist. The includes all you agnostics. Atheists is not a closed minded system. If God shows his face tomorrow I assure you I will no longer be an atheist.correction.

Atheism denies the existence of a higher power.

Agnosticism does not come down on either side.

BIG difference - Atheists are NOT Agnostics, and Agnostics are NOT Atheists.

But if God showed her face tommorrow, and it looked like this:

http://abagond.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/vishnu.jpg

I suspect many Christians would still be Christians - because it's not about THE truth, it's about YOUR truth. (The generic "your", not you specifically bignej)

[CraigSca]

Not to be pedantic but you already have made that judgement - you decided the bible is correct, therefore you've decided that everyone who doesn't believe in it is unsaved ...


The point that I was trying to make is - from a personal level - "I" can't determine who should go to hell and who should not. Personally, I would reserve the place for mass murderers and the like.

[Logan]

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: That is completely and uncategorically wrong. And insulting to boot.

When a christian tells someone that they are going to hell, what they are saying is this: "I am right, and you are wrong, and because of your shortcomings/ignorance you deserve to be punished for all of eternity."

It is a staggeringly opinionated, judgmental, and arrogant statement. To believe that their god - or Jesus - or whatever - is the only real god and all others are false, and whose followers will suffer? It is hypocrisy at its worst.

At the point tarcone said he wished everyone would believe exactly like him or suffer the alternative, he stopped being just happy for himself and instead judged all of us.

I'll stop here before I earn myself a vacation as well... :rant:

This reminds me of a conversation I had with a good friend of mine who is very religious and Coptic Orthodox (I'm Jewish...not religious at all, I follow the holiday traditions really because it makes my parents happy, but I do believe that there is some sort of higher power out there).

He asks me, "What will you do if you're wrong about your beliefs?" I basically say there is nothing I can do about it, as I'm not planning on changing how I live my life, because my beliefs come from my personal thoughts, experiences, family/friend influences, etc.

I asked him the same question: "What if you're wrong?"

Him: "I'm not wrong."

With that, I smiled, walked out of the room, and have never discussed religion with him again.

[JediKooter]

All I know is, god must hate rock and roll.

Dead: John Lennon, Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison, the guys from Lynard Skynard, Elvis, Buddy Holly, etc...yet, we are stuck with the Simpson girls, Hanson, Michael Bolton, so many other crappy people now that I don't even know their names.

Just not fair I tell ya.

[RendeR]

I don't choose to believe there is no theistic god. I find it IMPOSSIBLE to choose otherwise.

I struggle to define a lack of belief as a belief system.


Believers find it impossible NOT to believe. same same.

its a belief. Wether you're actively choosing it or not. When given the option of going through 2 doors, one thats labels "God exists" the other "God Doesn't Exist" I'd expect you to choose the latter.

If you're saying that you are not choosing TO believe there is no god, then I'd say you're an agnostic, you simply don't Know one way or the other. As soon as you state there cannot be a god or there is not a "god" then you're stepping into the realm of choice. and as such -- belief.

[Marc Vaughan]

We're not talking about what is a religion, we're talking about having a "belief" Atheism IS a belief system.

Atheism is not a religion, nor a dogma, but it IS a belief. Atheists choose to "believe" there is no theistic god.

You can't just total up religious followers on one side and everyone else on the other, thats not how it works.

To borrow a quote ...

"Everyone on the planet has aleady decided not to believe in many different Gods, Aetheists just go one God further than non-aetheists"

[Raiders Army]

Old Testament fan? :D
Not really. I do like the image of a vengeful and wrathful God that destroys cities, kicks ass, and takes names.

Also, the New Testament isn't exactly the most accurate document out there. The police try to interview people involved in a crime as soon as possible so they can get all the details they can remember before they forget. Best case scenario, the New Testament was written 30-40 years after Jesus Christ died. I'm not putting too much stock in how accurate the stories are.
I'd like a God that hands out cash, but that's not the way it is.

You have to understand where I'm coming from - God is THE supreme being who created everything.

So, we're asking the Creator of all things to bend to what OUR perception of a worthy God is so that WE will believe in Him?
God does hand out cash. He gives you a blank check for happiness for all eternity and all you have to do is sell your immortal soul to him. Not that I blame anyone for doing it, really. The sales pitch is incomparable and there are worse deities to sell your soul to.

Isn't asking God to be a perception of a worthy God in order for us to believe in him something reasonable? I mean, if you truly don't think he's a worthy God, why would you believe in him?

[Raiders Army]

All I know is, god must hate rock and roll.

Dead: John Lennon, Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison, the guys from Lynard Skynard, Elvis, Buddy Holly, etc...yet, we are stuck with the Simpson girls, Hanson, Michael Bolton, so many other crappy people now that I don't even know their names.

Just not fair I tell ya.I did not know that Lisa and Maggie had a band. From what I remember, Lisa plays the Sax and Maggie doesn't even talk yet.

[JediKooter]

To borrow a quote ...

"Everyone on the planet has aleady decided not to believe in many different Gods, Aetheists just go one God further than non-aetheists"

Excellent quote Marc.

Imagine how the Romans with their many gods felt about those pesky christians and their ONE god. How dare they think that there can only be one god?

[bignej]

To borrow a quote ...

"Everyone on the planet has aleady decided not to believe in many different Gods, Aetheists just go one God further than non-aetheists"

Perfect quote for this

[JediKooter]

I did not know that Lisa and Maggie had a band. From what I remember, Lisa plays the Sax and Maggie doesn't even talk yet.

Haha! I didn't think of them. That's pretty funny. I was actually thinking of Jessica and her little sister, Ashley.

[bignej]

correction.

Atheism denies the existence of a higher power.

Agnosticism does not come down on either side.

BIG difference - Atheists are NOT Agnostics, and Agnostics are NOT Atheists.

But if God showed her face tommorrow, and it looked like this:

http://abagond.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/vishnu.jpg

I suspect many Christians would still be Christians - because it's not about THE truth, it's about YOUR truth. (The generic "your", not you specifically bignej)

Calling yourself an agnostic is just a p*ssy way of saying your an atheist. You don't believe but you kind of do? Please. Believers believe in something regardless of facts. Non-believers (by definition atheist) believe what the facts tell them. Its not a "belief" system at all.

[Logan]

Haha! I didn't think of them. That's pretty funny. I was actually thinking of Jessica and her little sister, Ashley.

I think of Jessica and her little sister Ashley a lot too.

Call me a sinner.

[Groundhog]

If you're saying that you are not choosing TO believe there is no god, then I'd say you're an agnostic, you simply don't Know one way or the other. As soon as you state there cannot be a god or there is not a "god" then you're stepping into the realm of choice. and as such -- belief.

It's not that simple in my opinion. The fact that there are so many religions that all believe they are the only religion makes it impossible for me to even be agnostic. I don't see any reason to believe one religion over the others when they are all (the big ones, at least) mutually exclusive, and have the exact same basis in faith rather than fact, with their own believers equally convinced they are correct and that it's unthinkable that they are wrong, or that the other religions are right. When it comes to organised religion, I am an atheist.

However, I'm open to the idea that there might be some kind of higher power that might fit the category of what we call a "god". I guess I'm agnostic in that sense, but I don't really think that, if it existed, this power would, a) resemble any of the gods in our religions, or b) give a shit about the human beings on Earth, let alone demand that they worship it.

[Groundhog]

Calling yourself an agnostic is just a p*ssy way of saying your an atheist. You don't believe but you kind of do? Please. Believers believe in something regardless of facts. Non-believers (by definition atheist) believe what the facts tell them. Its not a "belief" system at all.

It's not that simple.

Of course, in the eyes of the Christian/Jewish/Islamic god, it matters not. An agnostic is no better than an atheist, so maybe you are better off hedging your bets by choosing one side of the fence over the other. ;)

[bignej]

Are you all agnostic to the tooth fairy? I mean you never know.

[Groundhog]

Are you all agnostic to the tooth fairy? I mean you never know.

That's different, because when you're a parent you know how the tooth turns in to money - because you do it.

The faith argument is both the weakest and strongest argument that there is. It's a complete lack of evidence, but that same lack of evidence makes it impossible to deny. The fact that the same method can be used to prove that absolutely anything MIGHT exist doesn't seem to hurt the argument at all.

[JediKooter]

I think of Jessica and her little sister Ashley a lot too.

Call me a sinner.

I'm glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read this.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I'm just pissed the "I Have Been Shaved" parody thread has yet to materialize.

[bignej]

That's different, because when you're a parent you know how the tooth turns in to money - because you do it.

The faith argument is both the weakest and strongest argument that there is. It's a complete lack of evidence, but that same lack of evidence makes it impossible to deny. The fact that the same method can be used to prove that absolutely anything MIGHT exist doesn't seem to hurt the argument at all.

but there might be a tooth fairy somewhere just not in your house.

Atheists denial that that god exists is not absolute and would change in the face of contrary evidence. This a huge difference to how believers act in the face of contradictory evidence.

Isn't an agnostic denying to believe in God by not agreeing that he exists? How is that different that some of these definitions of atheists?

[Bad-example]

but there might be a tooth fairy somewhere just not in your house.

Atheists denial that that god exists is not absolute and would change in the face of contrary evidence. This a huge difference to how believers act in the face of contradictory evidence.

Isn't an agnostic denying to believe in God by not agreeing that he exists? How is that different that some of these definitions of atheists?

Agnostics possess the open-minded quality of Atheists without the arrogance of declaring that god doesn't exist.

[Groundhog]

Isn't an agnostic denying to believe in God by not agreeing that he exists? How is that different that some of these definitions of atheists?

No. All an agnostic is saying is that he or she doesn't know. Maybe one of the religions is correct. That's it. They aren't denying that God/s exist.

[Groundhog]

Agnostics possess the open-minded quality of Atheists without the arrogance of declaring that god doesn't exist.

I don't consider it arrogance. Is someone arrogant for not believing in Zeus?

[Groundhog]

dola

Although I'm more than willing to concede that there are an awful lot of "militant atheists" that well deserve the "arrogant" label. I'd consider those folks more anti-religion than atheist.

[bignej]

dola

Although I'm more than willing to concede that there are an awful lot of "militant atheists" that well deserve the "arrogant" label. I'd consider those folks more anti-religion than atheist.


This is very true. I think this stems more from the fight fire with fire way of thinking.

[Bad-example]

I don't consider it arrogance. Is someone arrogant for not believing in Zeus?

No. Not that that has anything to do with the discussion.

[Groundhog]

No. Not that that has anything to do with the discussion.

I think it does. If you have given it some thought and decided that gods are man-made, I think that still makes you far less arrogant than the majority of believers - Logan's friend for example.

[EagleFan]

Not sure I understand why.

According to the Bible, God gave the world to humanity. Humanity screwed up by sinning, and we are all born with it. Sin is an affront to God's perfection and is punishable by death. Even so, God loves us and sent his Son to die for us. Now, all we have to do is accept this through faith.

Sounds like He digs us a lot.

"According to the Bible"

According to a book written hundreds, if not thousands of years after the "facts" it tries to pass on. Try passing whispering a sentence from one person to another through a line of 20 people to see just how badly it gets altered by the end. Now do that for 1000 years and let's see just how far from the original it is.

"God gave the world to humanity"

Strong statement there with no evidence to base it on.

"Humanity screwed up by sinning"

The "original sin" was eating a fucking piece of fruit. Not killing someone, not tortuing someone, but eating a damn piece of fruit. Does this strike anyone as petty? This god is petty enough to set this rule. This god is supposed to be all-knowing so therefore he knew how this was going to turn out before it even began so what is the point?

"we are all born with it (sin)"

So much for allowing each person the true individual choice. By this logic everyone who has decended from a person who may have commited an act worthy of the death penalty should also be killed? This perfect god seems to use logic which is far from perfect.

"Sin is an affront to god's logic and is punishable by death"

It is punishable by death? Isn't one of the ten commandments "Thou shalt not kill"? Does this mean that god is breaking his own commandment? Doesn't this make god less than perfect?

"god sent his son to die for us"

Another act that makes no sense. There is no need for this act. If god is the one determining if we are "worthy" he can just as easily determine this without the drama queen act of the crusifiction. He sent his son to die, this also seems to go agains the whole though shalt not kill thing. Sending someone into a known fate equates to performing the act yourself. Unless you think god does not see it as a sin if you know that person A will kill person B when he sees him and you knowingly point person B to a location where person A is waiting. It kind of sounds like my kids telling me "but I didn't do it".



Sorry, but way too many holes in this logic. All we can do is live life the best way possible and whatever happens will happen.

[Bad-example]

I think it does. If you have given it some thought and decided that gods are man-made, I think that still makes you far less arrogant than the majority of believers - Logan's friend for example.

For me, it puts you on exactly the same level.

[EagleFan]

Instead of the tooth fairy or something like that, what if he announced his conversion to Islam? Would that change reactions from some?

It would be just about the same as believing in the tooth fairy, except it may warrant a call to homeland security. :devil:

[Groundhog]

For me, it puts you on exactly the same level.

The big difference for me is that if one of the gods of one of the religions proved its existence to me, I'd have no choose but to "believe" in it, because I know it exists.

The same is not true for believers.

[Bad-example]

The big difference for me is that if one of the gods of one of the religions proved its existence to me, I'd have no choose but to "believe" in it, because I know it exists.

The same is not true for believers.

Not seeing much difference from my perspective. You have both made leaps of faith in arriving at your conviction.

[panerd]

I bet Front Office Cricket Central in New Dehli is having the same back and forth about being Hindus. Doesn't it scare Christians that you are a Christian pretty much because you were born in a Christian country. Doesn't that show you how illogical religion is?

I am sure there will be some poster born in China that is Christian or some Jewish poster that became Chrisitan, but let's face the hard facts here. Your parents were Christians and so are you. Had your parents been Muslim you probably would be that. Had you been born in some African country you would worship some God that Christians probably shake their heads at here. As been mentioned before if your were thousands of years before here you would be following Thor, Zeus, Athena, etc.

It's scary that such an easily proven point seems to be left out of the discussion and is almost certianly the reason why a lot of Americans are Christian. Even scarier is no matter who ends up being right (Christians, Hindus, Muslims, Atheists) almost 75% of the world is wrong. I will put my bets on the atheists as they are the only ones that seem to apply any logic to the discussion. Everyone else is just scared that when they die that is it. We are no different than deer, bees, wolves, bacteria, trees, dogs... we die and that's it.

[Groundhog]

Not seeing much difference from my perspective. You have both made leaps of faith in arriving at your conviction.

Certianly doesn't feel that way to me. As I said above, a ton of mutually exclusive religions to choose from, all with the exact same facts to back them up. It didn't take much of a leap of faith for me to reach my conviction.

[Groundhog]

I bet Front Office Cricket Central in New Dehli is having the same back and forth about being Hindus. Doesn't it scare Christians that you are a Christian pretty much because you were born in a Christian country. Doesn't that show you how illogical religion is?

I am sure there will be some poster born in China that is Christian or some Jewish poster that became Chrisitan, but let's face the hard facts here. Your parents were Christians and so are you. Had your parents been Muslim you probably would be that. Had you been born in some African country you would worship some God that Christians probably shake their heads at here. As been mentioned before if your were thousands of years before here you would be following Thor, Zeus, Athena, etc.

It's scary that such an easily proven point seems to be left out of the discussion and is almost certianly the reason why a lot of Americans are Christian. Even scarier is no matter who ends up being right (Christians, Hindus, Muslims, Atheists) almost 75% of the world is wrong. I will put my bets on the atheists as they are the only ones that seem to apply any logic to the discussion. Everyone else is just scared that when they die that is it. We are no different than deer, bees, wolves, bacteria, trees, dogs... we die and that's it.

Duh, we're right, of course. ;)

[Bad-example]

Certianly doesn't feel that way to me. As I said above, a ton of mutually exclusive religions to choose from, all with the exact same facts to back them up. It didn't take much of a leap of faith for me to reach my conviction.

Certainly nothing arrogant about coming to the only logical conclusion. Bravo!

[Groundhog]

Certainly nothing arrogant about coming to the only logical conclusion. Bravo!

Good, we're in agreement then. ;)

[Marc Vaughan]

Calling yourself an agnostic is just a p*ssy way of saying your an atheist. You don't believe but you kind of do? Please. Believers believe in something regardless of facts. Non-believers (by definition atheist) believe what the facts tell them. Its not a "belief" system at all.

Not at all imho - agnostics say they don't know whether there is a God or not.

To be quite honest I think in their heart of heart all people whether describing themselves as religious or aetheist have moments where they are unsure, agnostics are just honest enough to admit they don't know 100%.

Admitting you don't know something is often a sign of security and strength of character - its also far better imho than those who don't truly believe in something but pretend.

[Marc Vaughan]

I bet Front Office Cricket Central in New Dehli is having the same back and forth about being Hindus. Doesn't it scare Christians that you are a Christian pretty much because you were born in a Christian country. Doesn't that show you how illogical religion is?

Actually one of the things which intruiges me is that Christianity has very limited roots in the areas where it was born, instead having the bulk of its believers far from the middle east.

Anyone who's a Christian scholar want to try and explain this oddity?

[Marc Vaughan]

That's different, because when you're a parent you know how the tooth turns in to money - because you do it.

Strange though because similar arguements can be used for many Christian aspects - I know Christian parents who try hard to ensure that prayers their children have said come true because that will help strengthen their faith.

Similarly I've seen people (cough) speaking in tongues who are obviously just playing a role, I've been at demonstrations of the holy spirit which were based in basic tricks of balance and disorientation.

This doesn't discredit Christianity, just shows that there are fakes out there.

Just because as a parent you put the money under the pillow - how can you prove thats the case in every instance ;)

[Raiders Army]

Not at all imho - agnostics say they don't know whether there is a God or not.

To be quite honest I think in their heart of heart all people whether describing themselves as religious or aetheist have moments where they are unsure, agnostics are just honest enough to admit they don't know 100%.

Admitting you don't know something is often a sign of security and strength of character - its also far better imho than those who don't truly believe in something but pretend.

Being an agnostic is hedging your bet. Believe in something at least. I don't see it as a sign of security and strength of character. I look at it as being undecided and going with the winner.

[Klinglerware]

Actually one of the things which intruiges me is that Christianity has very limited roots in the areas where it was born, instead having the bulk of its believers far from the middle east.

Anyone who's a Christian scholar want to try and explain this oddity?

I'm not a religious scholar, but I suspect that Christianity would have stayed niche in Judea--as it would have been perceived as another Jewish cult.

Freed from that context, the message of Christianity had a greater chance of acceptance as a religion in its own right. Certainly a minor reason for its spread, but one of the reasons.

There are other examples of religions gaining acceptance to a greater degree in regions other than the homeland. Buddhism is one example--it is Indian in origin, but has very few adherents in India relative to other parts of Asia.

[Marc Vaughan]

Being an agnostic is hedging your bet. Believe in something at least. I don't see it as a sign of security and strength of character. I look at it as being undecided and going with the winner.

Each to their own, I think admitting you don't know something is something which requires strength of character - partially because a lot of people think like you do.

If you KNOW you're going to be pushed by people into one camp or another yet realise you don't believe either arguement is convincing enough to sway you completely then it takes a special sort of person to remain true to themselves and admit that they'd prefer not to please anyone and continue to wait on the evidence.

I see this more as a scientific approach to religion to be honest, getting all the facts in before deciding if a theory holds water ... will these people ever know for sure, probably not ... but nothing wrong with them admitting it imho.

[lighthousekeeper]

Actually one of the things which intruiges me is that Christianity has very limited roots in the areas where it was born, instead having the bulk of its believers far from the middle east.

Anyone who's a Christian scholar want to try and explain this oddity?

I think it has something to do with the Civ IV culture boundary and inadequate culture/religious spending by the Civ that discovered Christianity. Their focus on the tech tree and related civics was more towards the scientist as opposed to culture/religion.

[Marc Vaughan]

I'm not a religious scholar, but I suspect that Christianity would have stayed niche in Judea--as it would have been perceived as another Jewish cult.

Freed from that context, the message of Christianity had a greater chance of acceptance as a religion in its own right. Certainly a minor reason for its spread, but one of the reasons.

There are other examples of religions gaining acceptance to a greater degree in regions other than the homeland. Buddhism is one example--it is Indian in origin, but has very few adherents in India relative to other parts of Asia.

Thanks for the post, very valid ideas and thats a good point about Buddhism, I have to admit I don't know enough about that religion to have realised that myself.

[DanGarion]

Isn't it a prove fact that the smarter people are the less they believe in organized religion anyway...?

[Groundhog]

A lot of it depends on the ruling class. Rome adopted Christianity as it's state religion, and if that hadn't happened, who knows what would have happened to Christianity.

Buddhism is a very interesting example. I've read an awful lot on Buddhism while learning about Chinese and, in particular, Japanese history. In Japan especially the rise of Buddhism took a similar form to that of Christianity in rome - the ruling noble class adopted it, largely because at that time Japan looked to China as the cultural capital of the world (probably fairly so, too), and at that point in her history, Japan imported a hell of a lot of Chinese culture - religion, art, music, etc.

What is most interesting of all, IMO at least, is how Japan incorporated Buddhism in with it's own native religion - what the Japanese now call Shinto. The two stood side-by-side and were by no means mutually exclusive. It was far later that Japan split Buddhism and Shinto in to two seperate religions, as part of the government's desire to restore Japanese tradition (ie. non-Chinese influenced tradition).

[Toddzilla]

To borrow a quote ...

"Everyone on the planet has aleady decided not to believe in many different Gods, Aetheists just go one God further than non-aetheists"Bravo, sir.

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours" -- Steven F. Roberts

[Toddzilla]

Calling yourself an agnostic is just a p*ssy way of saying your an atheist. You don't believe but you kind of do? Please. Believers believe in something regardless of facts. Non-believers (by definition atheist) believe what the facts tell them. Its not a "belief" system at all.Please don't devolve this conversation just because you have trouble understanding the English language. "To deny" is not the same as "I don't know". I don't know doesn't mean kind of, it doesn't mean yes, and it doesn't mean no.