Coach fired after his team wins Basketball game 100-0

[cthomer5000]

ESPN Coach says team played with honor -ESPN Rise GIRLSBASKETBALL (http://sports.espn.go.com/highschool/rise/basketball/girls/news/story?id=3859935)

I've done some searching and can't seem to find the story talked about here - so pardon me if there is some well hidden thread to be found here at FOFC.

So the topic here says it all, a coach of a women's high school basketball team has been fired after his team beat another team 100-0. Everyone on the losing side is outraged, and after a clamor the winning coach is jobless.

Very serious question: is it more "christian" to lay down and basically take a dive for the second half, or to continue playing to the best of your ability?

This stories seem to be more commonplace in this day and age, and it blows my mind. Are we simply afraid to let kids get their ass kicked once in a while and take some lesson from it?

[ISiddiqui]

Man, I've been following this on Deadspin and every since its happened, it's been down hill. I think the losing team got to go on Ellen or Oprah or something too. Ridiculous reaction to it.

$10 says that if the final score was 91-0, it'd hardly be talked about. I think the 100 has people noticing (good job, Wilt, look what you did!)

[Groundhog]

Back when I played high school basketball we won three games in a row by the scorelines of 121-0, 133-2, and 106-4. I don't remember it causing any kind of a problem for our coach, or our school. Granted, I didn't go to a Christian school, but from memory at least one of those teams we beat was a St. Somethingoranother high school.

[illinifan999]

I think what's more noticeable than the 100 points is the fact that a team failed to put the ball through the hoop a single time during a game.

[cthomer5000]

The losing school, it if had any guts, would use the venue of national TV coverage to come out and say it was a mistake to fire the opposing coach.

It's great to praise your players for fighting it out to the end despite getting hammered. But what lesson are you intending to learn that the winning team should be ashamed of whooping your ass? Is it honest to ask them to play below their ability? Where is the sportsmanship in that?

I ask this in all seriousness, as I think it's very damaging to sport in general in this country to keep seeing stories like this. It's a game - competition at it's most literal. And as my most hated NFL coach once said "you play to win the game." Herm had a point. And to me, when you're up 98-0, you should still be trying to score a basket on each possession. It's what the game is about.

[cthomer5000]

dola,

I'm operating under the assumption that the other team was simply doing their thing, Tim Duncan-like, as i've seen nothing to the contrary in the articles I've read. It doesn't sound like they were hot-dogging, shooting with their eyes closed, or doing anything else on the court that could perhaps be legitimately construed as unsportsmanlike.

[BYU 14]

I heard a bit more about this on the radio today. Apparently (and this was not in the article) he was having his team play full court press and they were also throwing up 3's throughout the 2nd half. That is borderline bullshit if true. You can have your reserves play hard still, but don't press and maybe slow down the offense a bit and use the opportunity to work on skills like ball handling and passing.

The article mentions learning disabilities, but the radio program said that the school had a lot of kids with moderate or worse mentally handicapped kids too. If that is the case and he was employing a fulll court press that is even worse. Again, you can't tell kids to lay down, but you can throttle it down a bit as a coach.

On the flip side, if a school that caters to mentally handicapped kids and/or kids with severe learning disabilites why would you subject them to this type of humiliation against schools that don't have to overcome these things. Maybe petition down a class or consider playing JV teams since it sounds like these girls have a serious disadvantage as it is.

I am all for competition and High School sports are competitive as they should be and it can get ugly when there is a big talent disparity, but 100-0 in a basketball game is just brutal.

[Groundhog]

I'd consider it classless if they were fullcourt pressing for the entire 40 minutes, but if they were just playing their usual D and running their usual offense, then I have no issue.

With the big wins I posted above that our team had we'd stop the fullcourt press once we were up by about 20.

[Groundhog]

dola

OK, if what BYU 14 says is the case, then yeah, the coach is an ass.

[BYU 14]

Man, I've been following this on Deadspin and every since its happened, it's been down hill. I think the losing team got to go on Ellen or Oprah or something too. Ridiculous reaction to it.


That's way over the top, what the hell is Oprah going to do for them? Give them free Magic Johnson hoop skills DVD's? Man, despite my earlier post, I am almost pissed now.

[BYU 14]

dola

OK, if what BYU 14 says is the case, then yeah, the coach is an ass.

Again, this is what was on the radio today, who knows if it was embellished. I am sure we will be inundated with coverage of this over the next few days since they are apparently going on a talk show. :confused:

[Cap Ologist]

http://www.flightbasketball.com/100-0-Texas-Game-Response-From-Coach.html


The fired coach's response.

[Lathum]

If the coach is telling the truth, and I would hope they can find boxscores and such, then IMO the guy who wrote the article should be the one fired.

And the fact that they only scored 12 points in the fourth quarter should tell you something.

[Groundhog]

http://www.flightbasketball.com/100-0-Texas-Game-Response-From-Coach.html


The fired coach's response.

Pretty good response.

[RendeR]

Wow, after reading all that I gotta wonder about the people supporting the lsing side. Seems like serious sour grapes turned to ruining a team and a coaches season and carreer.

Sad.

[Groundhog]

Yeah, with conflicting reports it's tough to say what's happened, but if the coaches response isn't complete BS than it's very dissapointing how this has turned out.

[rowech]

The opposing coach has stated publicly that if anybody taped the game, the truth would come out. The guy had starters in, pressing, shooting three's up 59-0 at the half...up 81-0 and so on and so on.

If the guy had his starters pulled, couldn't shoot threes, no pressing, shoot only after seven passes, and it just happened then I can live with that. To do what that team did though lacks all kinds of sportsmanship -- especially from a Christian school which is where I think most of this comes from. Had these been public schools I don't think you would hear as much about this either.

[JediKooter]

Ok wait, I think everyone is missing something here...a girls team scored 100 points!!

[molson]

I never understood why losing by a score like 100-0 was so much more devastating to someone's life than losing 70-0 when the loser was so bad that the winner stopped trying.

I always imagine it like a race. Imagine one runner is way in front. Close to the finish line, he starts to run in slow motion, so the race is a little closer. I know its not a perfect metaphor, but I see it the same way.

[JonInMiddleGA]

why would you subject them to this type of humiliation

I find myself asking that question several times a year, in more than one sport, even in games that don't involve powerhouses or players with additional challenges.

There's one basketball team (well two actually, boys & girls) that are from a school that's traditionally so small that they really have no chance to compete even in the smallest classification in the state. Losing by 40 points to mediocre teams, losing by as many as 80 to good teams even when they're trying to take it easy on them. Short of simply refusing to shoot I'm not sure how anybody can avoid beating these kids very very badly, which leaves me questioning the judgement of the adults who put them in this situation.

I can think of a few football programs in Georgia that are pretty much the same boat and I question the wisdom of creating the situation there as well.

Every state has different rules that would apply but I know here that schools have an option of playing a non-region schedule on a two year basis, essentially allowing them to play down as far as they need to while trying build or rebuild to at least some competitive standard. There's also the option of going to a JV only schedule, although I believe that has some specific rules that govern it. But those options are rarely utilized, but damned if I can really figure out why but adult egos seems to be the most likely reason.

[SackAttack]

I never understood why losing by a score like 100-0 was so much more devastating to someone's life than losing 70-0 when the loser was so bad that the winner stopped trying.

I always imagine it like a race. Imagine one runner is way in front. Close to the finish line, he starts to run in slow motion, so the race is a little closer. I know its not a perfect metaphor, but I see it the same way.

I'll take that analogy a step further. I ran cross country in high school, but not because I was a stud runner - I wasn't. I ran because I wanted to, and because I wanted to get better.

My first year, I wasn't nearly in the same running shape as the other kids I was competing against, and I knew it. My first race, I not only came in DFL, but the leaders of the varsity girls' race, which started 15 minutes after my own, beat me across the finish line.

That was humiliating, especially hearing the comments from folks in the stands. But you know what? I went out and busted my ass in every remaining race I had that season. My goal was to not be the last one across the finish line. More folks I had behind me, the happier I was. I knew I wasn't going to finish first, or even in the top half, but I was by-god not going to let a repeat of my first race happen.

With one exception, the rest of my high school "career," I was successful.

That one exception was at the Mt. SAC Invitational my junior year. That course always killed me, to the point where I just didn't *care* if I was last or not, I just wanted to get to the end, drink some water, and die. In roughly that order. My junior year, I was bringing up the trail in my race, and the leader of the race behind me comes down the final hill on my trail. I pick up the speed thinking, "hot damn, I'm not last?" HE kicks it up a gear. I used to think that was because he thought "Holy shit, I'm NOT in first?" I've since come to believe that he had to know that I wasn't in his race, but wasn't taking any chances. A guy who front-runs, when races are spaced fifteen minutes apart, should generally know whether or not he's got a rabbit in front of him.

At any rate, he hauled ass trying to get across the finish line before me, and I hauled ass trying not to let him beat me. He beat me anyway, but whether he knew or not, I'm glad he pushed me. In sports, at least, I'll take your best shot and if I can't return it, know that I at least took your best shot. I'm okay with that.

But don't patronize me. If you're that much better than me, I don't need your sympathy. It doesn't help you and it damn sure doesn't do me any good.

I would hope the girls on the losing end felt the same way. If that was their best effort and they just got walloped by the other girls' best effort, so what? If that was their best effort and the other girls were taking pity on them, that's got to be doubly humiliating, if they have any pride at all.

[MJ4H]

Just going by memory here, but I thought I read that the losing school had an enrollment of 20 students (note: school, not team) and many of the kids were learning disabled (some pretty severely). If there is a coach out there that is pressing a team like that and jacking up threes in the second half of a SHUTOUT then eff that guy right in the 5-hole.

If some of those things are not true, then I'm perfectly willing to back way the heck off of it. I wasn't there and I'm not willing to look it up after being up at 2am cleaning various waste products off of the carpet and trying to make myself sleepy again.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Just going by memory here, but I thought I read that the losing school had an enrollment of 20 students (note: school, not team) and many of the kids were learning disabled (some pretty severely).

And if that's the case then whoever decided to put them into athletic competition with schools (notably not a powerhouse themselves mind you) that can beat them 100-0 ought to not only be fired but quite possibly flogged on the town square.

[rowech]

The kids are not disabled in that way...they have things like severe ADD, dyslexia. They are fine physically.

[Radii]

Its amazing to me that after all this national attention and after the coach has been fired its apparently still being disputed whether the winning team continued to press and shoot 3 pointers in the second half.

[Samdari]

dola,

I'm operating under the assumption that the other team was simply doing their thing, Tim Duncan-like, as i've seen nothing to the contrary in the articles I've read. It doesn't sound like they were hot-dogging, shooting with their eyes closed, or doing anything else on the court that could perhaps be legitimately construed as unsportsmanlike.

According to the losing coach and several other spectators (presumably associated with the losing team) they were very much rubbing it in.

Also not included in what you read was that the losing school is famous for its teaching of developmentally disabled children, many of which were on the losing team.

So, after their team taunted the retarded children they just stomped while celebrating like they won the state title, the administration of the winning team apologized, said that the game and the actions of their team were disgraceful, but did not fire the coach.

The coach was fired when he issued a public statement disagreeing with that view, saying he and his players played honorably.

He was fired (from probably a $2000 a year job) for a public disagreement with his bosses, basically saying their institutional values are wrong. That's going to get you fired from a lot of jobs.

[Axxon]

dola

OK, if what BYU 14 says is the case, then yeah, the coach is an ass.

They somehow managed to stop scoring with 4 minutes left once they magically hit 100. Their fans and assistant coaches were cheering them on to hit this highlight. They were in a press and were still bombing 3 pointers until they did.

They put up points at a rate of one every 17 seconds until they hit 100 then magically they dialed it back. Yeah, I think it's clear this wasn't just beating a team this was planned exactly to humiliate them simply because they could.

[Matthean]

The opposing coach has stated publicly that if anybody taped the game, the truth would come out. The guy had starters in, pressing, shooting three's up 59-0 at the half...up 81-0 and so on and so on.

If the guy had his starters pulled, couldn't shoot threes, no pressing, shoot only after seven passes, and it just happened then I can live with that. To do what that team did though lacks all kinds of sportsmanship -- especially from a Christian school which is where I think most of this comes from. Had these been public schools I don't think you would hear as much about this either.

They had 8 players. If they put in three subs, they have two starters still in, and thus "he was still playing playing his starters." If they scored 59 in the first half, then they only scored 41 in the second half. They obviously pulled back some in the 2nd half.

[Samdari]

They had 8 players. If they put in three subs, they have two starters still in, and thus "he was still playing playing his starters." If they scored 59 in the first half, then they only scored 41 in the second half. They obviously pulled back some in the 2nd half.

Again, this story probably comes from the losing side, so use your discretion.

When it became clear that the game was going to get out of hand (up 40-something to 0), he called up the press and pulled his best players. When it became apparent that they had a chance to get to 100, he put the pedal to the metal again, inserting the stars, pressing, jacking 3s.

Much of the complaint also seemed to center on the demeanor of the winners as obnoxiously unsportsmanlike (which the administration of the winning team seemingly ackowledged).

[Axxon]

I'll take that analogy a step further. I ran cross country in high school, but not because I was a stud runner - I wasn't. I ran because I wanted to, and because I wanted to get better.

My first year, I wasn't nearly in the same running shape as the other kids I was competing against, and I knew it. My first race, I not only came in DFL, but the leaders of the varsity girls' race, which started 15 minutes after my own, beat me across the finish line.

That was humiliating, especially hearing the comments from folks in the stands. But you know what? I went out and busted my ass in every remaining race I had that season. My goal was to not be the last one across the finish line. More folks I had behind me, the happier I was. I knew I wasn't going to finish first, or even in the top half, but I was by-god not going to let a repeat of my first race happen.

With one exception, the rest of my high school "career," I was successful.

That one exception was at the Mt. SAC Invitational my junior year. That course always killed me, to the point where I just didn't *care* if I was last or not, I just wanted to get to the end, drink some water, and die. In roughly that order. My junior year, I was bringing up the trail in my race, and the leader of the race behind me comes down the final hill on my trail. I pick up the speed thinking, "hot damn, I'm not last?" HE kicks it up a gear. I used to think that was because he thought "Holy shit, I'm NOT in first?" I've since come to believe that he had to know that I wasn't in his race, but wasn't taking any chances. A guy who front-runs, when races are spaced fifteen minutes apart, should generally know whether or not he's got a rabbit in front of him.

At any rate, he hauled ass trying to get across the finish line before me, and I hauled ass trying not to let him beat me. He beat me anyway, but whether he knew or not, I'm glad he pushed me. In sports, at least, I'll take your best shot and if I can't return it, know that I at least took your best shot. I'm okay with that.

But don't patronize me. If you're that much better than me, I don't need your sympathy. It doesn't help you and it damn sure doesn't do me any good.

I would hope the girls on the losing end felt the same way. If that was their best effort and they just got walloped by the other girls' best effort, so what? If that was their best effort and the other girls were taking pity on them, that's got to be doubly humiliating, if they have any pride at all.

This story has jack shit to do with the losing team. NO ONE on the losing team, it's staff or the school whined about jack shit, asked for a forfeit, nothing. They've been nothing but class during this whole thing so lay off them because you sucked at cross country.

This IS about a school trying to teach life lessons to it's own students that it's not cool to go around humiliating people. It's a christian school. They're trying to teach values not train future WNBA players. There are only 8 girls on it's team too. The mistake they made was easing off and proving they could ease off once they'd gotten what they want which was extremely excessive.

Their school wanted to teach them a lesson by forfeiting the game. Their coach was undermining that goal and he was fired. Period.

I don't see how this is an issue unless you say that humiliating developmentally challenged girls is a right of youth that supersedes the school being able to decide what lessons it wants to teach it's students. This issue has zero to do with basketball and 100% to do with the mission the school sees itself as having. In fact, I haven't read one article condemning the winning girls. It's the coaches that drew all the heat and deservedly so.

[Axxon]

They had 8 players. If they put in three subs, they have two starters still in, and thus "he was still playing playing his starters." If they scored 59 in the first half, then they only scored 41 in the second half. They obviously pulled back some in the 2nd half.

They scored zero points in the last 4 minutes and averaged a point every 17 seconds up until that point. Just had to show that your statistics don't really prove what you're contending. They could have slowed down whenever they wanted but they didn't want until they hit 100.

[Axxon]

And if that's the case then whoever decided to put them into athletic competition with schools (notably not a powerhouse themselves mind you) that can beat them 100-0 ought to not only be fired but quite possibly flogged on the town square.

I agree and so did the school since they pulled the team from the league. The girls hadn't won in 4 years and had been totally blown out several times this season. They clearly didn't belong in that league but they had no problem with it until this loss.

[Axxon]

One more thing. Just found this interesting.

Cheryl Bugg, whose daughter is one of Covenant's top players, said she didn't want to talk about the firing.

She said the parents of the team's eight players met with school officials Saturday and outlined three goals for the program:

"We want to represent Christ with the highest respect, we don't want to humiliate anyone ever and we want our students to be enthusiastic in everything they do."

Again, I don't see where people are getting worked up about this. It's clearly not about the basketball game but about what parents are looking for in the school they send their kids to. I really only see one jerk in this entire scenario. Not the girls, not the school, just one jerk and he no longer is employed.

hxxp://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/012609dnspocovenantnu.2781526.html

[Flame Eater]

I'm glad the guy was fired. There is ABSOLUTELY no reason for this to happen. When they were up 20-30 points, it should have been apparent to everybody that they were going to win easily.

At that point the coach should have turned the game into a learning opportunity for his team. Call off the press, use the whole shot clock, lots of passing, no lay-ups, no 3's, don't press their inbounds throws, etc. Let your players try playing a completely different style of game. If the other team starts catching up...we know you can score points quickly.

I've run into this a few times while coaching youth soccer. It's amazing what skills the kids can uncover when they aren't allowed to play their normal game.

I agree that the winning team shouldn't lay down, but there are better ways to handle the situation. Did his team know the other kids were handicapped? Why not have your kids encourage and compliment the other kids? After all...you ARE the better team and you ARE going to win. Why not let everybody get something out of the experience?

[Lathum]

They somehow managed to stop scoring with 4 minutes left once they magically hit 100. Their fans and assistant coaches were cheering them on to hit this highlight. They were in a press and were still bombing 3 pointers until they did.

They put up points at a rate of one every 17 seconds until they hit 100 then magically they dialed it back. Yeah, I think it's clear this wasn't just beating a team this was planned exactly to humiliate them simply because they could.

were you there?

Have you seen game tape?


According to the winning coach's statement they stopped pressing 3 minutes in and only took 4 three's the whole game. Plus they only scored 12 fourth quarter points.

[Lathum]

dola- I agree there is a certain level of messed up to this story, I'm just not sure the coach deserved to be fired over this. Everyone is saying this is a "Christian " school. Wouldn't the "Christian" thing to do be forgive the coach if they truly felt he did something wrong?

[flere-imsaho]

It sounds to me like the coach saw an opportunity to have his team score 100 and took it, and then inevitable euphoria from the winning team upon having made this mark was construed (perhaps rightly) as unsportsmanlike.

The lesson the coach failed to impart, I think, is that there's no real achievement in putting up 100 points on a demonstrably inferior team.

[Axxon]

were you there?

Have you seen game tape?


According to the winning coach's statement they stopped pressing 3 minutes in and only took 4 three's the whole game. Plus they only scored 12 fourth quarter points.

Every news story I wrote commented on how they stopped scoring with 4 minutes to play and they'd hit 100. That my friend, plus the accounts of the parents on both teams, the administrator of the winning team etc, trumps the word of the losing coach. Sorry. Have seen zero outside sources agreeing with what he said and gee, it'd seem to me he'd be a tad bit biased dontcha think??

[Axxon]

dola- I agree there is a certain level of messed up to this story, I'm just not sure the coach deserved to be fired over this. Everyone is saying this is a "Christian " school. Wouldn't the "Christian" thing to do be forgive the coach if they truly felt he did something wrong?

They did and then he deliberately publicly disagreed with school administration and he was fired. He was not fired for the game but the insubordination. Basketball was a red herring.

[Sweed]

My wife had same day surgery last Friday so while I was in the waiting room the story all over espn that morning. My initial thought was this reporter was at the game like a local reporter is at every high school game in my area. With this in mind I believed the report must be true and the coach to be a moron.

So, Mike and Mike are talking about this and while there is some "you shouldn't have to stop playing" opinion thrown out the vast majority is going against the coach. Not because of the score but because of the continuing press and threes being shot. The general impression I got was nobody would be complaining if the 100 came with the team pulling back, taking some time, and certainly not pressing.

The Mike and Mike show was trying to get the coach on to comment but never heard back from him or the school except for a recorded message the school had setup. Talk continued on the subject on First Take, again espn was not able to get any response from the coach of the winning team.

My thought now as I read the coaches statement is why did he wait 'til Monday? If I'm the coach and I know we took off the press in the first quarter I'm all over espn Friday morning denying the report and giving my side of the story. I'm on there asking if the newspaper reporter was even at the game and wanting espn to check that out. If they're going to make this national news I want them to send someone out to talk to people that were at the game to verify what I'm telling them.

Of course it's possible the school told him he couldn't comment publicly or he'd lose his job? That instead they'd take care of it. But then if that's the case and he did as he was told and now pays with his job why not say so in his statement? He's already fired.

I'm not ready to hang the guy out until we know more, I wasn't there. But the fact he waited 'til Monday to comment doesn't do him any favors in my mind. Again if I'm in his shoes accused of doing something I didn't do in a national spotlight I'm defending myself from the first second.

It will be interesting to see what comes of it. If it turns out the reporter got it wrong or embellished the story then I do think he should be fired. If the coach did run up the score I'm not even sure he should be fired. From his players statements he seems to be well liked and could become the best person to show them that his way was a mistake and if he had it to do over it would be different. But I would also understand the school wanting to remove him if it wanted to.

Probably the worse thing is if it's proven the coach is telling the truth you'll never hear much about it in the national media.

[Lathum]

They did and then he deliberately publicly disagreed with school administration and he was fired. He was not fired for the game but the insubordination. Basketball was a red herring.

The school is firing him to make it look like they are doing everything they can to rectify the situation.

You are just fooling yourself if you think it is because of his response. Like I said, not a very "christian" thing to do.

[Huckleberry]

At that point the coach should have turned the game into a learning opportunity for his team. Call off the press, use the whole shot clock, lots of passing, no lay-ups, no 3's, don't press their inbounds throws, etc. Let your players try playing a completely different style of game. If the other team starts catching up...we know you can score points quickly.

There's no shot clock in Texas high school basketball, so I don't think there was a shot clock in this private school league.

[Samdari]

The school is firing him to make it look like they are doing everything they can to rectify the situation.

You are just fooling yourself if you think it is because of his response. Like I said, not a very "christian" thing to do.

They did not fire him until he made the statement. You do realize you are arguing with facts?

Their initial response to the situation was NOT to fire him. They gave him a chance to continue coaching, but in a manner consistent with their interpretation of what a Christian manner meant. Clearly, he did not want that.

I don't understand your position at all.

The Christian thing to do is to allow him to continue coaching and teaching his team values inconsistent with those of the administration? How so?

[RainMaker]

I don't have a problem with the firing. It's a classless move in my book and a high school has every right to determine what kind of influence they want on their kids. They felt that kind of behavior was not what they wanted their children exposed to.

High School basketball should never get to that level. There is usually no shot clock. You simply tell your kids that they must take a minute off the clock before shooting. Maybe sit your team in a 2-3 zone for the rest of the game. You don't have to stop playing, but you don't have to put up 100 points.

[Axxon]

The school is firing him to make it look like they are doing everything they can to rectify the situation.

You are just fooling yourself if you think it is because of his response. Like I said, not a very "christian" thing to do.

You're right. Employers never fire employees who publicly criticize them. They encourage their employees to speak out negatively about their decisions. It's fun.

Sorry I was fooling myself. Clearly that can't be the situation. What was I thinking?

[Axxon]

The Christian thing to do is to allow him to continue coaching and teaching his team values inconsistent with those of the administration?

And the girls parents I might add who were part of that decision.

[Lathum]

They did not fire him until he made the statement. You do realize you are arguing with facts?

Their initial response to the situation was NOT to fire him. They gave him a chance to continue coaching, but in a manner consistent with their interpretation of what a Christian manner meant. Clearly, he did not want that.

I don't understand your position at all.

The Christian thing to do is to allow him to continue coaching and teaching his team values inconsistent with those of the administration? How so?

nobody knows what the facts are so how can I argue them?

I refuse to believe he was fired because of his letter, this continued to get A TON of media attention after the initial story and the schools desicion to initialy keep him.

If the losing school had just let it go he would still have his job, letter or not.

[RainMaker]

I agree with Axxon, I think the firing came when the coach spoke out. If he had apologized whole heartidly, I think he'd still have a job.

[Fidatelo]

I don't really get why it would somehow have been better if his team had passed the ball around more and slowed the game down. If I'm getting beat 70-0, the last thing I want is to have to spend the rest of the game playing monkey-in-the-middle while the other team milks the clock. I'd want the other team to play their regular offense so I could get a few more cracks at breaking the goose-egg.

That said, the winning team should lay off a bit defensively (no full court press for sure, maybe play a little looser defense and avoid fouls etc).

[Lathum]

You're right. Employers never fire employees who publicly criticize them. They encourage their employees to speak out negatively about their decisions. It's fun.

Sorry I was fooling myself. Clearly that can't be the situation. What was I thinking?

give me a break.

This is a school, not a corporation. Great lesson to teach your kids, fire anyone who disagrees with you, way to teach them it's OK to voice your opinion.

By all accounts the coach was a good guy who taught his players well, it isn't like he is a repeat offender and a trouble maker.

So you are telling me this school has a zero tolerance policy and thats why he was fired and not because of a continued media outcry against what happened, despite people not nowing all the facts?

The coach was the fall guy, plain and simple.

You guys who are saying he was fired for disagreeing with the administration and deserved it need to get a grip, he should be allowed to tell his side of the story.

[Axxon]

nobody knows what the facts are so how can I argue them?

I refuse to believe he was fired because of his letter, this continued to get A TON of media attention after the initial story and the schools desicion to initialy keep him.

If the losing school had just let it go he would still have his job, letter or not.

Find one cite showing the losing school making any noise at all about this. You can't. Didn't happen. Why lie about it? This all came from the winning school and the press.

This article has a good bit from the Dallas Academy coach.

hxxp://abcnews.go.com/WN/story?id=6734750&page=1

spectators said the Covenant School ran up the score, playing aggressive offense, even with their 59-0 lead at halftime. The girls kept on the pressure until they scored the 100th point.

"I was really frustrated, especially at halftime," Dallas Academy junior Lauren Click said. "I actually did ask my coach, 'Do we have to go back out there?'"
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The Dallas Academy has eight girls on the varsity team and is used to challenges on and off the court. Despite hours in the gym practicing each week, the Bulldogs haven't won a girls basketball game in five years.

"We are not quitters, and we don't give up," Click said. "And we try hard at whatever we do, even if we are losing 100 to 0."

The girls hold no illusion that they would be able to play varsity basketball at a more competitive school like Covenant, whose star player is featured in YouTube videos. But the girls still enjoy the chance to get out on the court and compete.

"I was frustrated, but we got through and we did it," said Eleanor Callan, a Dallas Academy player. "I think we did a really good job, and I'm proud that we did what we did. We played really hard, no matter what the score was."

The team decided to turn a losing situation into a learning one, starting with a lesson in defense.

"We figured it can't get worse so we might as well start learning from them," said Shelby Hyatt, a Dallas Academy player.

Above all, coach Jeremy Civello said he is proud that the Dallas Academy Bulldogs persevered.

"I told them at the game ... that I probably would have quit at their age," said Dallas Academy's athletic director Jeremy Civello. "The fact that they didn't, I don't think there's anything these girls will face in their lives that they are going to back down from."

Damn, dude just won't let it go will he?

[Lathum]

I agree with Axxon, I think the firing came when the coach spoke out. If he had apologized whole heartidly, I think he'd still have a job.

why should he apologize if he doesn't think he did anything wrong?

Shouldn't he have a right to tell his side of the story?

also, his letter was well written and not overly critical of his school, he basicly said he disagrees with them.

[JPhillips]

dola- I agree there is a certain level of messed up to this story, I'm just not sure the coach deserved to be fired over this. Everyone is saying this is a "Christian " school. Wouldn't the "Christian" thing to do be forgive the coach if they truly felt he did something wrong?

Depending on your particular beliefs, asking for forgiveness is the crucial action.

[RainMaker]

why should he apologize if he doesn't think he did anything wrong?

Shouldn't he have a right to tell his side of the story?

also, his letter was well written and not overly critical of his school, he basicly said he disagrees with them.

And the school decided that they didn't want to employ someone who has a different view of the situation. He has the right to tell his side of the story, no one stopped him from that.

[Samdari]

So you are telling me this school has a zero tolerance policy and thats why he was fired and not because of a continued media outcry against what happened, despite people not nowing all the facts?

The school is making public statements that what happened in this game is inconsistent with the values and mission of the institution.

The coach is making public statements that, essentially, he does not agree with that.

I am telling you that you will get fired from any religious institution for making public statements that you do not agree with what the leaders of that institution say its values are. You would get fired from many secular organizations for doing the same thing, but, from religious institutions, I believe it would be 100%.

[MJ4H]

The kids are not disabled in that way...they have things like severe ADD, dyslexia. They are fine physically.

I said learning disabled in my post, and they are that.

[cthomer5000]

I said learning disabled in my post, and they are that.

The term 'learning disabled' conveys a feeling of more severe mental retardation to me, and probably 90% of others, unless clarified.

[wade moore]

The term 'learning disabled' conveys a feeling of more severe mental retardation to me, and probably 90% of others, unless clarified.

Really? Learning disabled does not conjure images of mental retardation to me at all. I thought it was a pretty accepted term for much less severe learning issues.

[boberot]

Really? Learning disabled does not conjure images of mental retardation to me at all. I thought it was a pretty accepted term for much less severe learning issues.

I agree with this statement.

[I'm not an expert, but I've worked for an agency that assists people with disabilities for the past decade.]

[Noop]

The losing coach should have forfeited the game at half time. It is not the winning teams job to sandbag it because the other team sucks. I understand the sportsmanship but the losing teams should have asked for a stoppage and pack up and go home.

[rowech]

The losing coach should have forfeited the game at half time. It is not the winning teams job to sandbag it because the other team sucks. I understand the sportsmanship but the losing teams should have asked for a stoppage and pack up and go home.

Most high school state rules say that if a team forefits they are not eligible for post-season tournament play.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Really? Learning disabled does not conjure images of mental retardation to me at all. I thought it was a pretty accepted term for much less severe learning issues.

I guess I'm somewhere in the middle, as context can provide clues to the degrees of disability. I will say that the way it was being used in connection to this story has me picturing it as being quite severe conditions, not something like (as someone referenced up the thread) ADD. Hell, I'd be shocked if there was a school in the country that didn't have at least one or two players with ADD on their roster at this point.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The losing coach should have forfeited the game at half time. It is not the winning teams job to sandbag it because the other team sucks. I understand the sportsmanship but the losing teams should have asked for a stoppage and pack up and go home.

Noop gets it in short order.

[JonInMiddleGA]

but, from religious institutions, I believe it would be 100%.

Nope, not even close.

And to be honest, in at least the majority of non-Catholic schools here (where I believe there's a great deal more church institutional control than in other denominations; i.e. diocesean level or above) I'd say there's a very good chance that any conflict between administrators & a coach who can beat anybody 100-0 is going to go in favor of the coach more than half the time.

You can do what you want but I don't recommend bucking a successful coach (of anything) in this state unless you're willing to lose the battle, and especially not at small private schools where coaching talent is very hard to attract due to the lower salaries.

If they're caught banging a student or something that's one thing, but getting fired for winning? Could happen, but damned sure isn't likely.

[Noop]

Most high school state rules say that if a team forefits they are not eligible for post-season tournament play.

That team wasn't going to the playoffs anyway.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I agree and so did the school since they pulled the team from the league. The girls hadn't won in 4 years and had been totally blown out several times this season. They clearly didn't belong in that league but they had no problem with it until this loss.

Well at least something good comes out of this.

[Samdari]

You can do what you want but I don't recommend bucking a successful coach (of anything) in this state unless you're willing to lose the battle, and especially not at small private schools where coaching talent is very hard to attract due to the lower salaries.

If they're caught banging a student or something that's one thing, but getting fired for winning? Could happen, but damned sure isn't likely.

I think this is pretty small time athletics here. Girls basketball at tiny parochial schools.

I need you to provide examples of coaches who have come out and said, "I fundamentally disagree with the values of the administration. I am going to ignore them and continue in my duties under a different set of values" I don't believe it has happened that often.

[RainMaker]

The losing coach should have forfeited the game at half time. It is not the winning teams job to sandbag it because the other team sucks. I understand the sportsmanship but the losing teams should have asked for a stoppage and pack up and go home.

This isn't fighting for a BCS spot and millions of dollars. It's women's high school basketball. It should be about girls going out there and having a good time. Playing a competitive sport and learning good sportsmanship.

And showing good sportsmanship is not "sandbagging it". No one is saying they should let them score or purposely miss shots. Just that they should have held the ball longer, cut off the press, and loosened the aggressiveness of their defense. Things that any coach in any sport would do, especially against a team that is clearly at a disadvantage.

In the end, the schools determine what they want taught to their students. The school felt that sportsmanship and class was more important than a meaningless milestone in a girl's high school basketball game. Good for them. The sport is in better shape getting rid of jagoffs like that.

[RainMaker]

I guess I'm somewhere in the middle, as context can provide clues to the degrees of disability. I will say that the way it was being used in connection to this story has me picturing it as being quite severe conditions, not something like (as someone referenced up the thread) ADD. Hell, I'd be shocked if there was a school in the country that didn't have at least one or two players with ADD on their roster at this point.

I don't think it's mental retardation, but a learning disability can be severe. I think we've all run across kids that were "slow". Not ADD slow, but mentally slow. Forrest Gump of sorts with a slower neurological system and lower overall IQs than the average high school student.

My guess is that it was a mix of different conditions. I'd guess that these conditions played an impact on how well they could play basketball.

[RainMaker]

While I think the coach should have been fired, another issue worth mentioning is why the school was allowed to participate this long on that level. They clearly had no business playing schools like that and were not remotely competitive.

I don't know if there is a lower level of high school sports, but shouldn't the state have done something. Perhaps setup games against similar schools in and out of state. Allowed them to team up with another school. I don't know, something creative could have been done.

[Noop]

This isn't fighting for a BCS spot and millions of dollars. It's women's high school basketball. It should be about girls going out there and having a good time. Playing a competitive sport and learning good sportsmanship.

And showing good sportsmanship is not "sandbagging it". No one is saying they should let them score or purposely miss shots. Just that they should have held the ball longer, cut off the press, and loosened the aggressiveness of their defense. Things that any coach in any sport would do, especially against a team that is clearly at a disadvantage.

In the end, the schools determine what they want taught to their students. The school felt that sportsmanship and class was more important than a meaningless milestone in a girl's high school basketball game. Good for them. The sport is in better shape getting rid of jagoffs like that.

So women are suppose to be given special treatment because they are girls? I am sure feminist would disagree with you. You learn sportsmanship at the pre-highschool level, once you reach highschool and pass your "feelings" don't and shouldn't matter.

Also you must have never played sports in your life, just because you aren't playing for money doesn't mean its not worth kicking the other teams ass.

[Noop]

While I think the coach should have been fired, another issue worth mentioning is why the school was allowed to participate this long on that level. They clearly had no business playing schools like that and were not remotely competitive.

I don't know if there is a lower level of high school sports, but shouldn't the state have done something. Perhaps setup games against similar schools in and out of state. Allowed them to team up with another school. I don't know, something creative could have been done.

Instead of that pussy footing how about telling the other team to suck it up and try harder.

[rowech]

That team wasn't going to the playoffs anyway.

Most states, all basketball teams go to the tournament no matter what.

[Noop]

Most states, all basketball teams go to the tournament no matter what.

I highly doubt that but whatever. Either way they weren't going to win any championship much less give a top seed a competitive game.

[Klinglerware]

It's not completely on topic, but...

This reminds me of when one of my younger brothers' played varsity baseball. One season, his team played a school for the deaf. My brother's team was probably a little over-confident and ended up blowing the lead they had (the game was eventually called on account of darkness).

Some of those schools for the deaf actually field some very competitive teams (e.g., Gallaudet at the college level). So it seems that in many cases, it is actually the low enrollment, rather than the fact that the athletes have disabilities, that are at the heart of poor performance.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Most states, all basketball teams go to the tournament no matter what.

Umm ... huh?

In Georgia only 4 teams from each region go to the state tournament (albeit most have a region tournament or even sub-region tournament as part of the qualifying process). That'd be less than 1/3rd of all teams.

[MJ4H]

The term 'learning disabled' conveys a feeling of more severe mental retardation to me, and probably 90% of others, unless clarified.

Wow. That would surprise me a lot.

[Marc Vaughan]

Strange thing is I grew up playing soccer in England, I lived in a relatively rural area and in that era fair play was only kicking the opposition players when they were standing on their feet - anything else was fair game.

My scout troop regularly won matches with scores in double figures (I actually remember our keeper coming up to try and score during one match because he was the only one on the team who hadn't) ... I also played on a school (and eventually university) team who were bloody awful.

The peak of my university teams career was us drawing a match 1-1, with matches lost as badly as 14-0.

You know what it built character and taught me that you can't always win but should always try hard and be graceful even when losing.

I agree with not hammering a team into the ground from an adults perspective, but unless its proven that the coach demonstrated absusive sportsmanship I don't think he should be punished at all - losing and losing hard is part of life, protecting kids from it totally isn't a good thing at all.

PS - My eldest son has started playing soccer and his team got hammered a few times recently (10+ goal deficits), the coach in question was very graceful and it wasn't his fault that his comp team is playing in a rec league because their old league closed down - the coach eased off as much as possible during the match, but simply their players were better than ours.
The third time we played his team (its a small league) we tried instead to mix up the teams and find a balanced opposition and you know what - the kids hated it, they're not stupid and would prefer to lose in good spirit than be pandered to - an attitude I personally respect.

[muns]

im amazed this has gotten this much play.

The coach is an ass point blank and I have no problems with him being fired. Once you start winning in basketball by 30 you need to take the foot off the pedal and start showing some class. If you hit 100 with your subs in, press off, and your walking the ball up the court congrats, but no one can tell me he did that. I dont need to know the facts or not. Its impossible time wise in womens basketball to do that without pressing, and running and gunning.

You cant tell your players to stop playing and trying to score, (your bench kids need work too) however you as the coach do have a direct influence on how the game is being played and what is being run. So be the grown up, be the guy thats been beaten by 30 point before and realize its not fun for your own kids when it happens, and dont destory the other kids desire to play the game. Thats just BS and has no business being in sports period.

[RainMaker]

So women are suppose to be given special treatment because they are girls? I am sure feminist would disagree with you. You learn sportsmanship at the pre-highschool level, once you reach highschool and pass your "feelings" don't and shouldn't matter.

Also you must have never played sports in your life, just because you aren't playing for money doesn't mean its not worth kicking the other teams ass.

Difference in kicking a teams ass and embarassing them. 50-0 is kicking their ass. They accomplished that. They beat a team of disabled kids, yippee!

And you must have never played sports in your life if you've never heard of letting up when the game is out of hand.

[RainMaker]

Instead of that pussy footing how about telling the other team to suck it up and try harder.

That's usually not how sports are played. Like I said, this was a regular seasons women's high school basketball game. Not the Final Four. There is no reason to run up the score on a disadvantaged team.

[Noop]

Difference in kicking a teams ass and embarassing them. 50-0 is kicking their ass. They accomplished that. They beat a team of disabled kids, yippee!

And you must have never played sports in your life if you've never heard of letting up when the game is out of hand.

Actually I have played sports and have been blown out before and have been on teams that have blown out the other team. My coach always told us to play hard because if given the chance the other team would gladly kick our ass.

We need to stop pampering these kids and giving them delusions that they are better then what they are, if you suck you suck go find something else to do with your life.

[RainMaker]

Actually I have played sports and have been blown out before and have been on teams that have blown out the other team. My coach always told us to play hard because if given the chance the other team would gladly kick our ass.

We need to stop pampering these kids and giving them delusions that they are better then what they are, if you suck you suck go find something else to do with your life.

You would be in the extreme minority of opinion in the sports world. Most coaches in sports let up when their team has the game clearly in hand. It's a sign of sportsmanship and class.

And give it up with the "you suck go find something else to do with your life" crap. It's women's high school basketball, not competing executives at a Fortune 500 company.

[muns]

Actually I have played sports and have been blown out before and have been on teams that have blown out the other team. My coach always told us to play hard because if given the chance the other team would gladly kick our ass.

We need to stop pampering these kids and giving them delusions that they are better then what they are, if you suck you suck go find something else to do with your life.

Your just not getting this. 50-0 is kicking someones ass. 100-0 is rubbing it in for no reason, showing no class, and needs to get fired. This isnt the WNBA where they are getting paid to play and could handle a beat down like that.

We arent pampering these kids. Sports isnt all about winning 100-0, and if you think that you are sadly mistaken. I guess if you suck sports cant teach you anything about life then?

[JediKooter]

Strange thing is I grew up playing soccer in England, I lived in a relatively rural area and in that era fair play was only kicking the opposition players when they were standing on their feet - anything else was fair game.

My scout troop regularly won matches with scores in double figures (I actually remember our keeper coming up to try and score during one match because he was the only one on the team who hadn't) ... I also played on a school (and eventually university) team who were bloody awful.

The peak of my university teams career was us drawing a match 1-1, with matches lost as badly as 14-0.

You know what it built character and taught me that you can't always win but should always try hard and be graceful even when losing.

I agree with not hammering a team into the ground from an adults perspective, but unless its proven that the coach demonstrated absusive sportsmanship I don't think he should be punished at all - losing and losing hard is part of life, protecting kids from it totally isn't a good thing at all.

PS - My eldest son has started playing soccer and his team got hammered a few times recently (10+ goal deficits), the coach in question was very graceful and it wasn't his fault that his comp team is playing in a rec league because their old league closed down - the coach eased off as much as possible during the match, but simply their players were better than ours.
The third time we played his team (its a small league) we tried instead to mix up the teams and find a balanced opposition and you know what - the kids hated it, they're not stupid and would prefer to lose in good spirit than be pandered to - an attitude I personally respect.

Unfortunately, here in America, the "Everyone's a winner" crap is rampant. The way I was brought up, if you lose you lose, go out and get 'em next time and it actually made me try harder.

[Noop]

Unfortunately, here in America, the "Everyone's a winner" crap is rampant. The way I was brought up, if you lose you lose, go out and get 'em next time and it actually made me try harder.

:+1:

Pussy footed liberals like muns and rainmaker think everyone should be a winner and made to feel good.

[RainMaker]

:+1:

Pussy footed liberals like muns and rainmaker think everyone should be a winner and made to feel good.

No, I just don't need to beat a group of disabled kids by 100 because I have low self esteem like you.

[RainMaker]

Unfortunately, here in America, the "Everyone's a winner" crap is rampant. The way I was brought up, if you lose you lose, go out and get 'em next time and it actually made me try harder.

This has nothing to do with the "Everyone's a winner" crap. No one is disputing the winner of the game or saying the other team shouldn't have tried to win the game. It's about basic sportsmanship, something found in every sport in every country.

[JPhillips]

Good to see social Darwinism making a comeback.

[Lathum]

I wonder if the losing team was trying their hardest until the end, if they were then what's wrong with the winning team continuing to try hard?

[Lathum]

This has nothing to do with the "Everyone's a winner" crap. No one is disputing the winner of the game or saying the other team shouldn't have tried to win the game. It's about basic sportsmanship, something found in every sport in every country.

Would you prefer high school sports shouldn't keep score, that way no ones feelings are hurt.

[Young Drachma]

In high school, my freshman year were decimated with a lack of players. Guys quit, some got kicked off the team and well, by the end of the year we had just 3 guys on our tennis team.

That meant each of us had to win in order for us for us to get the team win, since we showed up at matches down 0-2.

But we still traveled to those last few matches, in tow with our best player (who was always good for a win) me and this one guy who wasn't that great, but was a nice enough guy.

Well I recall showing up and telling my coach "Let me play #2 singles, so our #1 guy and the other guy who came could play #3 and might have a shot to win"

Coach was skeptical. I was a freshman and the guy playing me was gonna pound me. But he did it. We of course, did lose 4-1, but the guy I played -- who again, should've beat me into the ground -- came up to the net at one point and said "What do you want the score to be?"

I said "what?"

He said, "What do you want the score to be?"

I told him to let me have at least a game, because I never got to play singles and at least I could say I'd won a game at #2.

I ended up winning 2, one because he gave me one and one in the second set because I was serving well and aced him 3 times and then won a point on my own or at least, he made it look convincing.

I once coached a junior basketball team that won 74-14 in a game that lasted too long, but we didn't demoralize the other team, I had guys running slowly and trying not to score and played my scrubs who also just scored a lot.

I don't ever believe in pummeling someone into submission and I believe you have to put kids at their own ability levels.

But kids know what it's like to lose, most of them, and if you steer them in the right direction, they'll do the right thing.

This result isn't about whiny kids, it's about a coach who isn't very good at his craft and I'd have fired him too, because it it's the sort of attention the school didn't need.

I've coached (tennis) for years and there are a lot of ways to handle a matchup like that and none of them involve cheating, making your players not play anymore or any of that. You just give them their beating and then send them home. But he could've turned that game into a practice, rather than embarass them and it could've been a positive story of sportsmanship.

If that was their arch rival who was similarly matched? I say take it to 'em. But otherwise? You have to use discretion. I don't blame the kids at all, but the coach HAS to know better.

[muns]

:+1:

Pussy footed liberals like muns and rainmaker think everyone should be a winner and made to feel good.

lol right ya caught me!! Ive been outed as a pussy footed liberal.

Im actually impressed that the coach that ran up the score didnt get beaten up after the game. I mean cause in your world that would have been correct as well right???

[Lathum]

We of course, did lose 4-1, but the guy I played -- who again, should've beat me into the ground -- came up to the net at one point and said "What do you want the score to be?"

I said "what?"

He said, "What do you want the score to be?"

I told him to let me have at least a game, because I never got to play singles and at least I could say I'd won a game at #2.

I ended up winning 2, one because he gave me one and one in the second set because I was serving well and aced him 3 times and then won a point on my own or at least, he made it look convincing.



I am probably gonna get hammered for this, but IMO thats kind of pathetic.

Did it really make you feel better about yourself knowing he laid down a game and made it look good in the process?

I would rather get killed then have someone take pity on me, maybe it's just how I was raised. My father played chess with me every night starting when I was 8. He never took it easy on me and never let me win, he would fix my mistakes and I would learn from them. It took me ubtil I was 12 to beat him.

I played sports my whole life, and have been on both sides of a beatdown.

We are obviously different people, but if that guy came to the net and asked me what I wanted the score to be, I would never have asked him for a game, that to me would be sacrifising my dignity. I would have told him to go fuck himself.

Sorry if that offends you in any way, it's just not how I would have reacted in that situation.

[Noop]

I am probably gonna get hammered for this, but IMO thats kind of pathetic.

Did it really make you feel better about yourself knowing he laid down a game and made it look good in the process?

I would rather get killed then have someone take pity on me, maybe it's just how I was raised. My father played chess with me every night starting when I was 8. He never took it easy on me and never let me win, he would fix my mistakes and I would learn from them. It took me ubtil I was 12 to beat him.

I played sports my whole life, and have been on both sides of a beatdown.

We are obviously different people, but if that guy came to the net and asked me what I wanted the score to be, I would never have asked him for a game, that to me would be sacrifising my dignity. I would have told him to go fuck himself.

Sorry if that offends you in any way, it's just not how I would have reacted in that situation.

:+1:

[RainMaker]

Would you prefer high school sports shouldn't keep score, that way no ones feelings are hurt.

No. We aren't talking about winning and losing, we're talking about running up the score. Are NFL players and coaches pussies for taking a knee at the end of games? Are baseball players pussies for not stealing with a 10 run lead?

To constitute not running up the score with being pussies who don't want to keep score shows an ignorance to what is going on in sports.

[MJ4H]

In my opinion this is just a basic sportsmanship issue, and I am pretty disappointed that there are many that don't share this opinion.

[Lathum]

No. We aren't talking about winning and losing, we're talking about running up the score. Are NFL players and coaches pussies for taking a knee at the end of games? Are baseball players pussies for not stealing with a 10 run lead?

To constitute not running up the score with being pussies who don't want to keep score shows an ignorance to what is going on in sports.

NFL players take a knee so nothing crazy happens (Herm Edwards).

If you keep score there is the potential to run that score up. If we eliminate keeping score everyone can hug after the game and go pick flowers and eat cookies.

[Lathum]

In my opinion this is just a basic sportsmanship issue, and I am pretty disappointed that there are many that don't share this opinion.

I don't neccesaraly disagree with it, I just think it is BS the coach got fired when his account of what happend is very different.

They only scored 12 4th quarter points for example.

I would bet my house you can probably find scores from high school sports almost everyday where there are 60-80 point blow outs.

This one is being so blown out of preportion because a writer who wasn't even at the game is stating something as fact that the coach is saying never happened.

[JPhillips]

NFL players take a knee so nothing crazy happens (Herm Edwards).

If you keep score there is the potential to run that score up. If we eliminate keeping score everyone can hug after the game and go pick flowers and eat cookies.

Who is this directed at? There's no one on this board arguing that the game should have ended in a tie.

[Lathum]

just browsing the NJ high school girls basketball scoreboard from the last 3 days I see scores of

72-37
51-14
82-33
76-23

should all of those winning coaches be fired?

[RainMaker]

NFL players take a knee so nothing crazy happens (Herm Edwards).

If you keep score there is the potential to run that score up. If we eliminate keeping score everyone can hug after the game and go pick flowers and eat cookies.

That's bull and you know it. Teams take knees all the time in the final minutes with huge leads. There is nothing crazy that can possibly happen to cost them that game. Teams frequently run the ball instead of throwing bombs in the 4th quarter of blowouts. They call off blitzes too.

So Jimmy Johnson is a pussy for having his QB take a knee in the Super Bowl against the Bills?

[Lathum]

Who is this directed at? There's no one on this board arguing that the game should have ended in a tie.

my point is people are complaining about sportsmanship and such, well if you eliminated keeping score you eliminate any chance for bad sportsmanship or hurt feelings.

[Lathum]

That's bull and you know it. Teams take knees all the time in the final minutes with huge leads. There is nothing crazy that can possibly happen to cost them that game. Teams frequently run the ball instead of throwing bombs in the 4th quarter of blowouts. They call off blitzes too.

So Jimmy Johnson is a pussy for having his QB take a knee in the Super Bowl against the Bills?

dude, your analogy is so far off.

Taking a knee also prevents high paid players from possibly being hurt.

Have you ever seen a team take a knee for more then it was necessary to end the game?

Should a team with a 35 point lead start taking a knee with 5 minutes left, or 4 minutes?

Teams take a knee for a completely different reason then good sportsmanship.

[RainMaker]

dude, your analogy is so far off.

Taking a knee also prevents high paid players from possibly being hurt.

Have you ever seen a team take a knee for more then it was necessary to end the game?

Should a team with a 35 point lead start taking a knee with 5 minutes left, or 4 minutes?

Teams take a knee for a completely different reason then good sportsmanship.

So why did the Jimmy Johnson have his QB take a knee in the Super Bowl to end the game? It's the Super Bowl, so injuries don't really matter.

If you honestly don't think teams call off blitzes and run the ball with big leads for sportsmanship, then all I can say is that you don't watch a lot of football or just have no clue how the game is played.

[JediKooter]

This has nothing to do with the "Everyone's a winner" crap. No one is disputing the winner of the game or saying the other team shouldn't have tried to win the game. It's about basic sportsmanship, something found in every sport in every country.

Actually my comment was in response to Marcs comment, not the 100-0 game.

[Lathum]

So why did the Jimmy Johnson have his QB take a knee in the Super Bowl to end the game? It's the Super Bowl, so injuries don't really matter.

If you honestly don't think teams call off blitzes and run the ball with big leads for sportsmanship, then all I can say is that you don't watch a lot of football or just have no clue how the game is played.

your the one who has no clue, teams call off blitzes and such to try and avoid injury. They could care less if they beat the other team by 100.

If you have a big lead in football the goal is to finish the game as fast as possible without anyone getting injured. You do that by running the ball and the in the last 2 minutes, when the other team has no timeouts left, taking a knee.

[BYU 14]

I have been on both ends of this, years back when we were at another school, we had a group of Freshmen that, while they worked hard were just not the most talented group around. We played a team that featured current Oklahoma starting FB Matt Clapp as well as 4 other players, including the TB and QB that would be 3 year varsity starters. They were loaded and beat us 61-0, my worst loss in 21 years of coaching, but they did it right. The didn't play their starters the second half, but also didn't quit playing hard, we kept our kids playing hard, but it was what is was. We were outclassed and nothing I could do as a coach would have changed that. Sometimes it just works out like that. After the game I shook the coaches hand, complimented his team and thanked him for his sportsmanship, no ill feelings at all. On top of that I was proud of our kids for not quitting and that is what we took out of it.

Another example of this was 3 years ago at Westview, we scheduled a couple of B games against new programs. Notmally this is good when you have 80 kids out, but that year we only had high 40's for some reason and by the time that game came we were down to 35 due to grades and injuries. I left 17 kids behind with 2 coaches to play the "B" game and took the other 18 with one other coach to play the "A" game, which was on the road. The B team was playing the only freshmen team the other school had, I.E their A team and we expected to lose since we were playing with 3rd and 4th string kids.

We won our "A" game 34-12 and when we got back to school I grabbed the tape of the "B" game to watch (They got clobbered 47-6) I had no problem with that until I watched the tape. They were up 40-0 early in the 4th and put in their reserves, still cool. Then our kids scored, so the other coach pulled his reserves, put the starters in and scored, left them in on defense and then after getting the ball back left his starters in, they were driving and fumbled. Defensive starters stayed in and they got the ball back with a little less than 2 minutes left. I was still fairly cool with things at this point. I would have pulled my starters a bit earlier and made sure I cleared the bench and got everyone a few plays going into the fourth. He played less than half his 50 odd kids, which is still fine. I am not saying my way is best, it's just what I believe in. It was what happened next that really pissed me off. They tried a double reverse, threw deep twice and then tried a reverse pass. The only motive was to get another cheap TD against a group of kids who were already beaten and didn't need to have this done to them. They didn't score and as their OC was in the picture after the reverse pass I could see he was actually upset about it!!! Winning 47-6 with 30 odd seconds left. I won't ever forget that and if we were to get them against our regular squad I wouldn't go out of my way to embarrass them, beating them would be a pleasure. I know that is childish on my behalf, but I still don't appreciate what happened and would just like to see him do that against our best available squad.

Conversely we have had games the last two years where we have led by 30-40 points at halftime on 4-5 different occassions, to be honest I hate these games, but still encourage the kids to compete. The only difference being it is our backups, I go completely conservative in the play called and don;t believe I have ever thrown a pass in the 2nd half in any of those games and I make sure all the kids get in. If we had scored 100 under those circumstances I would not have liked it, but would have been OK. If I had left my starters in and thrown the ball and blitzed like crazy I wold expect someone to call me a dick and probably wouldn't deserve the honor of coaching.

Just my 2 cents.

BTW, I watch that 61-0 tape in full before every season.....It's a great dose of humility.

[RainMaker]

your the one who has no clue, teams call off blitzes and such to try and avoid injury. They could care less if they beat the other team by 100.

If you have a big lead in football the goal is to finish the game as fast as possible without anyone getting injured. You do that by running the ball and the in the last 2 minutes, when the other team has no timeouts left, taking a knee.

So Jimmy Johnson had his retiring backup QB take a knee in the Super Bowl to avoid injury? The Super Bowl, the last game of the year, the pinnacle of their career. As he was being doused with Gatorade in the biggest moment of his career, he was concerned about injuries to some backups.

Yes, I am the one who has no clue.

[JPhillips]

my point is people are complaining about sportsmanship and such, well if you eliminated keeping score you eliminate any chance for bad sportsmanship or hurt feelings.

But there's a lot of room between 0-0 and 100-0.

[RainMaker]

Lathum, why do teams run much more heavily when they are winning in a ridiculous blowout? Running plays account for much more injuries than passing plays. If this was simply about the injuries and not the sportsmanship, it would appear they are doing it all wrong.

[molson]

Most states, all basketball teams go to the tournament no matter what.

I thought that that was ONLY in Indiana (and it has been criticized there for being a relic of the past that leads to severe mismatches).

[muns]

just browsing the NJ high school girls basketball scoreboard from the last 3 days I see scores of

72-37
51-14
82-33
76-23

should all of those winning coaches be fired?

Nope, I dont have a problem with any of those scores.

Both teams scored, and the winning teams appears to have slowed down, some more than others. The 51 point score could have been much worse I guarantee it.

None of those are 100-0, and none of those 4 scores are even in the same boat.

Coaching in the same conference as Gallaudet University (A team that has hearing impaired kids, not all deaf) and playing against them twice a year, I get to see first hand how hard they work. Some kids are fantastic ball players some are just ok. We beat them 64-41. I played my bench 18 mins of the 20 in the second half, and we could have blown them out 80-30 if we really wanted.

There is no sense in it period and these are College kids, not high school.
We took a beating by 40-50 earlier on in the year by York College who is ranked in the top 25 in D-3 this year. I didnt have a problem with it at all. Their head coach slowed it down played the bench, and they are just that good. If they would have kept going with staters shit would have been said between the coaches..... guarantee it.

The situation we are talking about is very clear. The one team was horrible (they didnt score a single point) and the other coach was an ass and ran it up for no reason.... Im still waiting for someone to tell me what the difference is between winning 60-0 than 100-0, other than being an ass and rubbing it in.

[molson]

Im still waiting for someone to tell me what the difference is between winning 60-0 than 100-0, other than being an ass and rubbing it in.

I don't know anything about what happened in this game, but how about the reserves getting to play and succeed with "real" basketball (or any other sport), and not just the watered down "mercy" version? Or a team accomplishing an amazing thing that they'll remember forever? Maybe it's not THAT much more gratifying than winning by 60, but either is losing by 100 that much more devastating to other team.

I'm not saying the coach was right, I just still don't get what the big deal is. Do we know if any of the players on the other team have killed themselves? Developed drug problems? The winning team (and particularly the reserves) can have a fun, memorable moment, and the losing team can try to do better next time.

One season, the JV soccer team at my high school didn't score a single goal all year. I don't remember anyone being remotely upset about it. It was funny.

[BYU 14]

your the one who has no clue, teams call off blitzes and such to try and avoid injury. They could care less if they beat the other team by 100.

If you have a big lead in football the goal is to finish the game as fast as possible without anyone getting injured. You do that by running the ball and the in the last 2 minutes, when the other team has no timeouts left, taking a knee.

Actually a lot of us do Lathum, the coaching fraternity is pretty tight for the most part and things go in cycles, you won't always be up and if you take care of a coach when he is down it will come back to you, just like rubbing his face in the dirt will if he gets a chance and all this does is put kids who have nothing to do with the "grudge" paying the price for it.

You take the starters out to both avoid injuries, throttle things down and to also get your backups game experience as you may need them in a clutch situation some situations. At the end of the game you when a game is well in hand you probably have backups in anyway, so you take a knee and run to keep the clock moving and win with class.

[Raiders Army]

This has nothing to do with the "Everyone's a winner" crap. No one is disputing the winner of the game or saying the other team shouldn't have tried to win the game. It's about basic sportsmanship, something found in every sport in every country.

I am also sick of the "Everyone's a winner" crap, but RM is spot on here. This has nothing to do with winning and losing, but in how you win and how you lose.

[BYU 14]

I am also sick of the "Everyone's a winner" crap, but RM is spot on here. This has nothing to do with winning and losing, but in how you win and how you lose.


Exactly

[Logan]

Lathum, why do teams run much more heavily when they are winning in a ridiculous blowout? Running plays account for much more injuries than passing plays. If this was simply about the injuries and not the sportsmanship, it would appear they are doing it all wrong.

Because running the ball removes the potential for the clock to be stopped on an incomplete pass, hence leaving less time for your opponent to score once they get the ball back. Is this really debatable?

And please cite the statistics that show running plays lead to more injuries than passing plays. If I'm a coach, I'd much rather a solidly-built RB be faced with running into the defense than putting my irreplacable QB in the face of a pass rush.

[gstelmack]

And please cite the statistics that show running plays lead to more injuries than passing plays. If I'm a coach, I'd much rather a solidly-built RB be faced with running into the defense than putting my irreplacable QB in the face of a pass rush.

Well, your solidly-built RB will get hit every run (well, nearly every run), while your QB will only get hit a few times. Who do you think is more likely to get hurt? Who do you think will have a shorter career?

[BYU 14]

And please cite the statistics that show running plays lead to more injuries than passing plays. If I'm a coach, I'd much rather a solidly-built RB be faced with running into the defense than putting my irreplacable QB in the face of a pass rush.

The differences are negligible. O-lineman have a slightly higher percentage of injury on running plays, for skill players Passing plays are slightly higher. Not enough either way to make a sigificant impact.

[RainMaker]

Because running the ball removes the potential for the clock to be stopped on an incomplete pass, hence leaving less time for your opponent to score once they get the ball back. Is this really debatable?

And please cite the statistics that show running plays lead to more injuries than passing plays. If I'm a coach, I'd much rather a solidly-built RB be faced with running into the defense than putting my irreplacable QB in the face of a pass rush.

I'm talking major blowouts here. When you're up by 40 to an inferior team in the 4th quarter, you aren't concerned about them catching up. The clock should be of no importance unless it's a sportsmanship thing.

The statistics came out a couple years ago. I can't find it, but I want to say Football Prospectus did it. They discussed it on ESPN for a couple days. I'm sure someone more savvy than me with searching online can pull it up.

About 40% of all pass plays end up as incompletions and no contact on the ball carrier. Quarterbacks are only hit a few times a game. I would much prefer to pass as opposed to run if I was looking to prevent an injury.

But I think the point was that it shows a complete lack of sports knowledge to believe that no coach runs out the clock or takes knees from a sportsmanship perspective. Especially considering most blowouts involve your backups that you could careless about.

[Fidatelo]

I think the losing coach should be fired because he clearly didn't instill any passion in his players. If I'm playing a sport like basketball and I feel the other team is running up the score and trying to beat me 100-0, you better believe I'm either scoring a basket, blocking a shot, or getting ejected in my attempt to do one of those two things. I haven't heard of any fights or scuffles, so I have to assume his players just bent over and let the other team have their way.

[RainMaker]

I thought that that was ONLY in Indiana (and it has been criticized there for being a relic of the past that leads to severe mismatches).

I think you're thinking of the divisions. That's different than postseason eligibility. For instance, in Illinois, the there are many divisions of basketball for postseason play. Every team technically makes the playoffs within their own division.

[Lathum]

So why did the Jimmy Johnson have his QB take a knee in the Super Bowl to end the game? It's the Super Bowl, so injuries don't really matter.

If you honestly don't think teams call off blitzes and run the ball with big leads for sportsmanship, then all I can say is that you don't watch a lot of football or just have no clue how the game is played.

the fact that you keep referencing this one play which was the last play of the season is commical. It shows you really have no point.

When an NFL coach has his players take a knee I can pretty much guarentee he isn't sayin "I'll do the sporting thing" he is saying " lets get out of here with no one injured."

[Lathum]

Actually a lot of us do Lathum, the coaching fraternity is pretty tight for the most part and things go in cycles, you won't always be up and if you take care of a coach when he is down it will come back to you, just like rubbing his face in the dirt will if he gets a chance and all this does is put kids who have nothing to do with the "grudge" paying the price for it.

You take the starters out to both avoid injuries, throttle things down and to also get your backups game experience as you may need them in a clutch situation some situations. At the end of the game you when a game is well in hand you probably have backups in anyway, so you take a knee and run to keep the clock moving and win with class.

I was refering to the NFL, not high school or college.

[Lathum]

I'm talking major blowouts here. When you're up by 40 to an inferior team in the 4th quarter, you aren't concerned about them catching up. The clock should be of no importance unless it's a sportsmanship thing.

.

so what should they do? Take a knee every play of the 4th quarter?

No, you run the ball with your fullback or a backup RB, stay in bounds, get some first downs and keep the clock moving.

If a player breaks open a 70 yard run and his team is up by 40 should he just lay down on the 10 yard line?

Your arguments make no sense to me.

I'm at the point where I'll just say we agree to disagree.

[larrymcg421]

so what should they do? Take a knee every play of the 4th quarter?

No, you run the ball with your fullback or a backup RB, stay in bounds, get some first downs and keep the clock moving.

If a player breaks open a 70 yard run and his team is up by 40 should he just lay down on the 10 yard line?

Your arguments make no sense to me.

I'm at the point where I'll just say we agree to disagree.

Actually, I think you're the one with the poor analogy.No one would have a problem No one would complain if the coach genuinely tried ot slow it down. That doesn't seem like the case, since he WAS able to slow it down once they got to 100.

If the Fullback breaks off a long run, well then so be it. But if the QB is throwing long bombs, then it's a different story. The latter is what we're looking at here.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I would bet my house you can probably find scores from high school sports almost everyday where there are 60-80 point blow outs.

You could probably remove the "probably" from that sentence.

And those are teams winning with far more than the 8 players that the Texas winner had to work with. I can only imagine what some of the scores here in this area (just with Wesleyan's girls & Athens Christian's boys off the top of my head) would be like if they had no choice but to leave two starters on the floor at all times. Hell, that boys team -- highly unlikable though their coach may be for other reasons -- told all five starters not to even dress for a game last week & won by something like 70 (against one of those "shouldn't be playing at this level" schools I mentioned up the thread). And that's with a running clock mercy rule in place, imagine if the timing were normal (as I believe I saw mentioned somewhere for the hundred point game in question, state rules don't allow for a running clock if what I read was correct).

This is much more common than it seems some people realize I guess.

[RainMaker]

the fact that you keep referencing this one play which was the last play of the season is commical. It shows you really have no point.

When an NFL coach has his players take a knee I can pretty much guarentee he isn't sayin "I'll do the sporting thing" he is saying " lets get out of here with no one injured."

You are ignorant to the game of football then. If you don't think people take knees as the sporting thing to do, I don't know what to tell you.

[Noop]

None of this would have happened if the losing coach had just forfeited the game at half time. I think the winning coach is not at fault because he played by the rules and his team happened to beat down the other team. Why should anyone care if they beat them by 100 or 20?

Instead of calling the winning coach classless or a poor sportsmen why not say the same for the losing coach to allow it to happen? Or the administration that thought it was a good idea to let disabled kids play in a non disabled league? This whole thing was easily avoidable but the losing team chose not to forfeit and got their ass kicked.

I don't care if its girls or not, if you decide to play any sport you accept the possibility of getting your ass kick. You either cry about it or try not to let it happen ever again. I remember in Pee Wee watching my team get throttled and our entire team cried.

My father told me I had to choices if I was going to always cry when I lose keeping crying and eventually quit or be a leader to my team and practice harder. Which one do you think would benefit people more? Crying about it and having people encouraging that behavior or rising above it?

[JonInMiddleGA]

You know what I haven't seen mentioned anywhere? Whether the winning team was a run & gun shoot the three's sort of team or if the alleged pace was out of character for them.

I have very little problem with this as is, but would have even less issue than that if they were simply doing what they normally do.

[Noop]

You are ignorant to the game of football then. If you don't think people take knees as the sporting thing to do, I don't know what to tell you.

It plays a part but it is done to avoid serious injuries or crazy stuff happening. If you throw long passes you run the risk of your QB being hit and getting hurt ruining your season. If it happens during the last game then it interferes with your preparation for next season because that player may not be available for training camp.

[Raiders Army]

the fact that you keep referencing this one play which was the last play of the season is commical. It shows you really have no point.

When an NFL coach has his players take a knee I can pretty much guarentee he isn't sayin "I'll do the sporting thing" he is saying " lets get out of here with no one injured."

I can't believe how far this has devolved. We are now making the comparison of the NFL with high school. Total apples and oranges.

If anything, the high school coach would take the knee to do the sporting thing. The high school kids have a lot more to gain by running up the score for college scouts.

[RainMaker]

so what should they do? Take a knee every play of the 4th quarter?

No, you run the ball with your fullback or a backup RB, stay in bounds, get some first downs and keep the clock moving.

If a player breaks open a 70 yard run and his team is up by 40 should he just lay down on the 10 yard line?

Your arguments make no sense to me.

I'm at the point where I'll just say we agree to disagree.

I'm talking about games that are well out of hand in the 4th. Tune in the first couple weeks of college football. There is 0% chance the team down by 50 to a top school is going to come back in the 4th quarter.

You say teams only run to run out clock. So I'm asking you why a team who has no chance of losing would not throw an equal amount. Since the game is out of reach, according to your line of thinking, there is no reason not to throw.

[RainMaker]

I can't believe how far this has devolved. We are now making the comparison of the NFL with high school. Total apples and oranges.

If anything, the high school coach would take the knee to do the sporting thing. The high school kids have a lot more to gain by running up the score for college scouts.

Lathum doesn't believe teams take knees as sportsmanship. He doesn't believe teams run out the clock out of sportsmanship.

[RainMaker]

It plays a part but it is done to avoid serious injuries or crazy stuff happening. If you throw long passes you run the risk of your QB being hit and getting hurt ruining your season. If it happens during the last game then it infers with your preparation for next season because that player may not be available for training camp.
You are playing your backups anyway. And running the ball carries injury risks as well.

I just have a hard time believing the coach of a championship football team getting doused in Gatorade is getting on the mic discussing how they can avoid injuries for next year's training camp. But apparently that's how it works. Maybe if the Cardinals get up big this Sunday, Wisenhunt can put in Leinart and save Warner for next August.

[Lathum]

You are ignorant to the game of football then. If you don't think people take knees as the sporting thing to do, I don't know what to tell you.

I hate the word ignorant, so I will tell you this.

You are a fucking fool and an idiot.

If they take a knee because it is "sporting" why do they only do it when the other team has no time outs left and can't stop the clock?

I have never in my life seen an NFL team take a knee when there was a chance for the other team to get the ball back with more then 20 seconds left.

It is a part of the strategy of the game, why do you think it becamse FAR more prominant after the Herm Edwards fiasco?

like I said earlier, I'm done discussing it with you, I was being cordial agreeing to disagree, but I don't appreciate being called ignorant.

[RainMaker]

None of this would have happened if the losing coach had just forfeited the game at half time. I think the winning coach is not at fault because he played by the rules and his team happened to beat down the other team. Why should anyone care if they beat them by 100 or 20?

Instead of calling the winning coach classless or a poor sportsmen why not say the same for the losing coach to allow it to happen? Or the administration that thought it was a good idea to let disabled kids play in a non disabled league? This whole thing was easily avoidable but the losing team chose not to forfeit and got their ass kicked.

I don't care if its girls or not, if you decide to play any sport you accept the possibility of getting your ass kick. You either cry about it or try not to let it happen ever again. I remember in Pee Wee watching my team get throttled and our entire team cried.

My father told me I had to choices if I was going to always cry when I lose keeping crying and eventually quit or be a leader to my team and practice harder. Which one do you think would benefit people more? Crying about it and having people encouraging that behavior or rising above it?

Those are all fine points. I believe the losing school has some explaining to do as to why they subjected kids to this on a yearly basis. Why the league allowed a school of disabled kids to get embarrassed on a nightly basis. You have to wonder if there could have been other ways for the kids to enjoy high school sports against competition at their own level.

The issue is whether it's sportsmanlike to put up 100 points on a school of disabled kids just because you can. When I was in high school, we we're a fairly good team in the state. We had a few games a year that were absolute massacres in which we'd win by 40-50 points.

In each one of those games, I remember that we were instructed to hold the ball just past the midstripe and stand there for a minute or until they put pressure on us. When they did, we'd pass it around past the 3-point line for a minute or so. Most teams that were down by 40 were just conceding and didn't put much pressure. There were times when we sat and ran off the last 3-5 minutes of the game. We called off any press we were running. Now none of that was done to "avoid injuries" or "run out the clock". These were inferior teams. Teams that were superior to us would do the same thing. It was sportsmanship, nothing more.

I remember having a baseball coach who would tell everyone in the dugout to not steal or bunt for a hit when we were up big. I suspect most kids who played high school ball has heard that before too. I guess I'm just astonished that a few of you never came across these aspects of the game when growing up.

[RainMaker]

I hate the word ignorant, so I will tell you this.

You are a fucking fool and an idiot.

If they take a knee because it is "sporting" why do they only do it when the other team has no time outs left and can't stop the clock?

I have never in my life seen an NFL team take a knee when there was a chance for the other team to get the ball back with more then 20 seconds left.

It is a part of the strategy of the game, why do you think it becamse FAR more prominant after the Herm Edwards fiasco?

like I said earlier, I'm done discussing it with you, I was being cordial agreeing to disagree, but I don't appreciate being called ignorant.

Typically when there is more than 20 seconds left to give the other team you run halfback dives with your backup running backs. It is done so that you don't embarrass the other team. The backups being in the game is so that injury is of no concern.

Earlier this year USC played Washington State. They led 41-0 at the half and it wasn't even close. USC threw the ball 1 time in the 2nd half (0 in the 4th quarter). Now this surely wasn't because they felt Washington State was going to mount a heroic comeback. And since they were playing 3rd and 4th string players, it certainly wasn't about injuries. So is Pete Carroll a liberal pussy or just a bad football coach?

Your whole argument has been that sportsmanship has no factor in any level of sports. That shows such a complete lack of intelligence for sports that it's hard to imagine you watch or have ever participated in athletics. I used the word ignorant because I was hoping you just didn't have a strong background in sports. I figured it was better than assuming you were a complete moron. I guess I was wrong.

[RainMaker]

And high school basketball is only 8 minute quarters. You really have to try to score 100 points in a game. Especially considering there is no shot clock in most states.

Does anyone know if Texas as a running clock rule? It essentially runs the clock during ball stoppages and fouls. Usually implemented if a team is up by a certain amount at halftime or the 3rd quarter.

[Lathum]

No. We aren't talking about winning and losing, we're talking about running up the score. Are NFL players and coaches pussies for taking a knee at the end of games? Are baseball players pussies for not stealing with a 10 run lead?

To constitute not running up the score with being pussies who don't want to keep score shows an ignorance to what is going on in sports.

Typically when there is more than 20 seconds left to give the other team you run halfback dives with your backup running backs. It is done so that you don't embarrass the other team. The backups being in the game is so that injury is of no concern.

Earlier this year USC played Washington State. They led 41-0 at the half and it wasn't even close. USC threw the ball 1 time in the 2nd half (0 in the 4th quarter). Now this surely wasn't because they felt Washington State was going to mount a heroic comeback. And since they were playing 3rd and 4th string players, it certainly wasn't about injuries. So is Pete Carroll a liberal pussy or just a bad football coach?

Your whole argument has been that sportsmanship has no factor in any level of sports. That shows such a complete lack of intelligence for sports that it's hard to imagine you watch or have ever participated in athletics. I used the word ignorant because I was hoping you just didn't have a strong background in sports. I figured it was better than assuming you were a complete moron. I guess I was wrong.

You were the one that bought up the NFL, not me. find one spot in this thread where I mentioned sportsmanship has no factor in any level of sports?

You can't, but your to stupid to realize I was telling you that I don't agree with your reasoning why NFL coaches take a knee at the end of a game. You are hearing what you want to hear.

As for a strong sports background I played sports my whole life, including going to England to play soccer for a junior team when I was 14 ( where we got whipped BTW, still one of the best experiences of my life) and getting accepted to college on an athletic scolarship.

Go read the thread again, maybe you will realize how thick you really are.

[Fidatelo]

Lathum doesn't believe teams take knees as sportsmanship. He doesn't believe teams run out the clock out of sportsmanship.

I can't believe I'm getting into this, but coaches in the NFL take knees to run out the clock and avoid fumbles. It has nothing to do with sportsmanship, and only a small amount to do with injuries. It's about winning the game in the most assured way possible.

[Raiders Army]

All I get from this is Lathum is trying to win an argument about the NFL so he'll win the argument about girls' high school basketball.

[Lathum]

All I get from this is Lathum is trying to win an argument about the NFL so he'll win the argument about girls' high school basketball.

one has nothing to do with the other RA, look at the posts I bolded above, I wasn't the one who made the NFL comparason, it was rainmaker.

I was just telling him that I don't agree with his opinion that NFL teams take a knee out of sportsmanship.

My opinions about the girls basketball game are a totaly seperate issue.

In fact, I even tried to end the argument by agreeing to disagree, he was the one who kept it going by calling me ignorant.

[RendeR]

The sad thing is people outside the game (the BB game) couldn't keep their mouths shut and their personal whining to themselves.

Who cares what the score was? honestly? One team was demonstrably better than the other. The score is fucking irrelevent.

yes its humiliating to lose 100-0, you know what? tough shit. WTF has this country come to that we have to coddle and protect every fucking child from dissapointment or humiliation? Overcoming these things is what makes people stronger individuals with some internal fortitude.

If they didn't like the way the coach managed the game then the school takes it up with him afterward. They don't pander to the bitching of the other school just to "make nice" its fucking retarded.

Part of the reason they play the games is so the kids learn to overcome adversity, they weren't in the same league as the other school, so you punish the other school? No, You bust your asses and get better.


*puke*


Ok, got that out, now I don't have to sit here and shoke it all down any longer. my Manhood has been apeased.

Frankly, I think its all overblown. The kids won't give a shit about this in another 6 months, the only way it gets to be this much of a story is because of the parents and schools pandering to the squeaky wheels and the media is running with it because they have nothing better to print atm.

Seriously, wtf difference does a class nothing christian school conference basketball game matter? Why must it be made so important?

Their 15 minutes of fame is up.

[RainMaker]

one has nothing to do with the other RA, look at the posts I bolded above, I wasn't the one who made the NFL comparason, it was rainmaker.

I was just telling him that I don't agree with his opinion that NFL teams take a knee out of sportsmanship.

My opinions about the girls basketball game are a totaly seperate issue.

In fact, I even tried to end the argument by agreeing to disagree, he was the one who kept it going by calling me ignorant.

Then a lot of people in the NFL would disagree with you. I remember the Patriots getting a ton of crap from the media and other players for "running up the score". Apparently some in the NFL and the media felt that there was some form of sportsmanship involved in the game.

Taking a knee was just one example. Yes it's done to stop something crazy from happening in a close game. But it's also done in games that aren't close, and it's something I would consider sportsmanlike to avoid running up the score. I don't believe in doing it with 5 minutes left in the game, but I do believe running the ball the rest of the game when up by 5 scores is sportsmanlike.

I have one simple question. When a team is up by 40+ points, why do they choose to run the ball the rest of the game? There is no reason to run out clock since sportsmanship is not a factor at all in your mind. Neither is losing the game which is an impossibility. There has to be some logical reason they are running the ball every down.

[Lathum]

There has to be some logical reason they are running the ball every down.



If you have a big lead in football the goal is to finish the game as fast as possible without anyone getting injured. You do that by running the ball and the in the last 2 minutes, when the other team has no timeouts left, taking a knee.

I already posted why

thank you for proving my point that you are only seeing what you want to see.

[Fidatelo]

I have one simple question. When a team is up by 40+ points, why do they choose to run the ball the rest of the game? There is no reason to run out clock since sportsmanship is not a factor at all in your mind. Neither is losing the game which is an impossibility. There has to be some logical reason they are running the ball every down.

Because running the ball keeps the clock moving and gets them closer to the end of the game. The object in the NFL is to win. You do that in the most efficient manner possible and then you get back into the dressing room. It isn't because you'd feel bad scoring another TD; if a running back sees a hole he's going to hit at 100% and run over any safeties in his way, if he can. I don't believe most coaches give 2 seconds of thought to it. They just pound the rock and watch the clock so that they can hit the tunnel as fast as possible with another W in their pocket.

[RainMaker]

I already posted why

thank you for proving my point that you are only seeing what you want to see.
You are playing your backups, injuries are inconsequential at that point. There are also tons of examples of this happening in championship or final games of the season where injuries don't matter.

And why were so many players and members of the media getting upset about the Patriots running up the score? Were they angry that Bellichek was potentially submitting his backups to injury? For a league that sportsmanship is not in, it seems a lot were upset at the Patriots lack of last season.

[RainMaker]

Because running the ball keeps the clock moving and gets them closer to the end of the game. The object in the NFL is to win. You do that in the most efficient manner possible and then you get back into the dressing room. It isn't because you'd feel bad scoring another TD; if a running back sees a hole he's going to hit at 100% and run over any safeties in his way, if he can. I don't believe most coaches give 2 seconds of thought to it. They just pound the rock and watch the clock so that they can hit the tunnel as fast as possible with another W in their pocket.
I don't believe coaches care much either. But when a game is completely out of hand, I believe a coach will avoid embarrassing the other team. Going into a vanilla running offense, calling off blitzes, punting when you could kick a long field goal are just some examples.

[RainMaker]

And Lathum, I do apologize for the ignorant comment. I was writing quickly and it was not the best choice of words. I attributed some of Noop's posts to you as well.

I think it was a good discussion and whether not I agree with you should not have gotten into personal attacks. The beauty of sports is the fact we can have these kind of debates on sportsmanship and so forth.

[Lathum]

I apologize as well for getting heated.

I still think you are wrong ;)

[Noop]

The sad thing is people outside the game (the BB game) couldn't keep their mouths shut and their personal whining to themselves.

Who cares what the score was? honestly? One team was demonstrably better than the other. The score is fucking irrelevent.

yes its humiliating to lose 100-0, you know what? tough shit. WTF has this country come to that we have to coddle and protect every fucking child from dissapointment or humiliation? Overcoming these things is what makes people stronger individuals with some internal fortitude.

If they didn't like the way the coach managed the game then the school takes it up with him afterward. They don't pander to the bitching of the other school just to "make nice" its fucking retarded.

Part of the reason they play the games is so the kids learn to overcome adversity, they weren't in the same league as the other school, so you punish the other school? No, You bust your asses and get better.


*puke*


Ok, got that out, now I don't have to sit here and shoke it all down any longer. my Manhood has been apeased.

Frankly, I think its all overblown. The kids won't give a shit about this in another 6 months, the only way it gets to be this much of a story is because of the parents and schools pandering to the squeaky wheels and the media is running with it because they have nothing better to print atm.

Seriously, wtf difference does a class nothing christian school conference basketball game matter? Why must it be made so important?

Their 15 minutes of fame is up.

Bravo sir. Bravo.

[Logan]

You are playing your backups, injuries are inconsequential at that point. There are also tons of examples of this happening in championship or final games of the season where injuries don't matter.

What's worse: a coach who allows his team to play at 50% of their ability against a clearly overmatched team, or a coach who doesn't give a shit if his inconsequential backup gets hurt and has to endure months of pain as long as he's ready for training camp?

:)

And why were so many players and members of the media getting upset about the Patriots running up the score? Were they angry that Bellichek was potentially submitting his backups to injury? For a league that sportsmanship is not in, it seems a lot were upset at the Patriots lack of last season.

Quick answer? Because it was the Patriots and Belichick. Longer answer? There may have been so many players and members of the media upset about it, but there were also many players and members of the media (and non-Pat fans posters in our weekly threads -- look it up) who had no problem with it.

[BYU 14]

The sad thing is people outside the game (the BB game) couldn't keep their mouths shut and their personal whining to themselves.

Who cares what the score was? honestly? One team was demonstrably better than the other. The score is fucking irrelevent.

yes its humiliating to lose 100-0, you know what? tough shit. WTF has this country come to that we have to coddle and protect every fucking child from dissapointment or humiliation? Overcoming these things is what makes people stronger individuals with some internal fortitude.

If they didn't like the way the coach managed the game then the school takes it up with him afterward. They don't pander to the bitching of the other school just to "make nice" its fucking retarded.

Part of the reason they play the games is so the kids learn to overcome adversity, they weren't in the same league as the other school, so you punish the other school? No, You bust your asses and get better.


*puke*


Ok, got that out, now I don't have to sit here and shoke it all down any longer. my Manhood has been apeased.

Frankly, I think its all overblown. The kids won't give a shit about this in another 6 months, the only way it gets to be this much of a story is because of the parents and schools pandering to the squeaky wheels and the media is running with it because they have nothing better to print atm.

Seriously, wtf difference does a class nothing christian school conference basketball game matter? Why must it be made so important?

Their 15 minutes of fame is up.

Points I agree with
1-Parents whine way too much
2-This story has gotten way too much play
3-In the grand scheme of things it won't have any long term effects on anyone.

But.....

You bottle neck sports way too much, there is a lot more to sports than winning and losing at the high school level. Coaches are role models that can play a significant part in peoples development. Yes they need to learn to overcome diversity and not be coddled. Yes life will throw tougher things at them. A good coach will teach them that and can start by not pressing a team you have stomped to save a shutout or get 100 points. The losing Coach can ease the disappointment his kids feel, I think the thing I look at is there is no reason for the winning coach to have taken it to the degree he did.

This really should not be national news as it happens all the time. Why, because there are jackoffs who coach that actually relish laying this type of beating on people (Not saying this guy is one, cause I don't know him)

Blow outs happen all the time and it is a part of life if you play sports and there will always be large talent disparites among high school programs and there are ways to handle it that don't involve Oprah.
The worst that should have come out of this.

1-Winning Coaches AD tells him he should have backed off a bit.
2-Losing Coach lets his team know he was proud of their effort and they move past it.

[molson]

And why were so many players and members of the media getting upset about the Patriots running up the score? Were they angry that Bellichek was potentially submitting his backups to injury? For a league that sportsmanship is not in, it seems a lot were upset at the Patriots lack of last season.

That one made even less sense. It seemed like a majority of observers were concerned about the feelings of pro football players. What other possible reason is there to be upset by that?

[Axxon]

I hate the word ignorant, so I will tell you this.

You are a fucking fool and an idiot.

If they take a knee because it is "sporting" why do they only do it when the other team has no time outs left and can't stop the clock?

I have never in my life seen an NFL team take a knee when there was a chance for the other team to get the ball back with more then 20 seconds left.

It is a part of the strategy of the game, why do you think it becamse FAR more prominant after the Herm Edwards fiasco?

like I said earlier, I'm done discussing it with you, I was being cordial agreeing to disagree, but I don't appreciate being called ignorant.



Now, I certainly believe you're telling the truth and it's really sad you've never had good role models to follow. I did. This was too easy though. I was at this game and remember it well.

hxxp://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:svhRU-Ycr9cJ:vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1024196/index.htm+dungy+buccaneers+take+a+knee+carolina&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us&client=firefox-a

Double Trouble
For better or worse, the fate of the Bucs seems to rest on the words and deeds of All-Pro defensive tackle Warren Sapp
Michael Silver
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They wanted wretched excess, and really, who could blame them? As the Tampa Bay Buccaneers were driving for a garbage-time touchdown with two minutes left in their 41-14 trashing of the Minnesota Vikings on Sunday, the crowd at Raymond James Stadium clamored for another score. Seven more points would give the Bucs their highest single-game total in 14 years, tying a franchise record, and on second-and-goal from the Minnesota five, the fans filled the autumn air with an anticipatory roar.

Who could blame them? Warren Sapp, that's who. Sapp, the Buccaneers' All-Pro defensive tackle, incessant loudmouth and unquestioned pirate king, was chatting up teammates behind the Tampa Bay bench when backup quarterback Shaun King went to his knee after taking a snap from center, inspiring a chorus of boos. Sapp turned to the stands and waved his arms, screaming, "Come on—show some class!" Seconds later as King stood over center, prepared to take a knee again, the howls had dwindled to a murmur, and the message was loud and clear: In Warren Sapp's house you'd better mind your manners.

Now, of course, Tony Dungy is a loser who never amounted to anything trying that goofy sportsmanship thing but damn, Warren Sapp has more class than you dude. Damn, that's gotta hurt.

Seriously, I'm done with this. If I had to stand by someone's example I could do a whole hell of a lot worse than Tony Dungy and I'll take my examples of class from a soon to be Hall of Famer like Tony and not you or Ex Coach Grimes. Clearly somehow he managed to have great success and still not let his teams be dicks to others simply because they could and Micah is collecting unemployment checks until McDonalds finishes his security check. Funny how that works.

[Atocep]

I'm of the firm belief that in today's America sportsmanship is often code for excessive coddling. 100-0 is a tad ridiculous, but I put just as much blame on the losing coach for not having the balls to do something during the game and instead make a big deal out of it after the fact.

If the losing coach had issue with what was going on there were things he could have and should have done DURING the game to either make his point or put a stop to it. Personally, I would have called a time out as soon as things got out of hand and he continued to press and then explained that either he back his kids off or I'm not sending my kids back out there and everyone can have have an early night. If the winning coach really was doing the things he's accused of I'm willing to bet he'd rather have his wide margin of victory go down in the scorebooks rather than a forfeit. Forfeiting the game would have been my absolute last resort, but in the same position I would be willing to do so in order to make my point.

Lets also not pretend that high school sports is 2nd grade parks and rec league here. Coaches at the high school level lose their jobs in a lot of places based on wins and loses and the vast majority of players at that level are out there to win while having a firm understanding of defeat. There's no need to go throwing some kids on Oprah or giving them national attention because they got their asses kicked and their coach chose to whine about it only after the game was finished. Yes, coaches at the high school level are in charge of helping develop these kids but knowing how to handle embarrassment and losing is a huge part of athletics.

Its been pointed out at various points during this thread, but its obvious those girls had absolutely no business playing at the level they were playing at. If it took a 100-0 loss for the school's AD or the state's board to realize it then its a good thing in the long run and the AD should be held responsible for putting the in the position to begin with if we want to point fingers.

There's things that each side could learn from this experience but judging from the grab at media some attention and 15 minutes of fame I'm willing to bet very little is learned from this other than the fact the girls had no business having that team on their schedule.

[Axxon]

Lets also not pretend that high school sports is 2nd grade parks and rec league here. Coaches at the high school level lose their jobs in a lot of places based on wins and loses and the vast majority of players at that level are out there to win while having a firm understanding of defeat.

Absolutely. A girls team from a private school small enough that they can only field 8 players is obviously a high pressure, win at all costs girls basketball factory. I can't believe we've all overlooked that.


There's no need to go throwing some kids on Oprah or giving them national attention because they got their asses kicked and their coach chose to whine about it only after the game was finished.

Do you have any cite at all showing this coach whining? Anything? I've asked before. Bueller?

Why does everyone who defends Grimes have to do it by spouting undocumented stuff just to try to make him look good? Why did you say that the Dallas coach whined? Do you have a cite?

I have yet another one trying to convince people.

hxxp://armchairgm.wikia.com/Article:When_is_it_Enough%3F

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On January 13, The Covenant School defeated Dallas Academy by a score of 100-0 in a District match-up for girls varsity basketball.

Covenant’s Head of the School Kyle Queal is very remorseful about the events that transpired on the 13th. He said, "It was poor judgment. I look at the box score and look at the box score, and it was not justified. It will never happen again."

Edd Burleson, director of the 236-member Texas Association of Private and Parochial Schools (TAPPS), is disappointed in the outcome of the game. “Our motto is 'Competition With Honor,' " he said. "I can't see how the one school can live up to that."

In the wake of all the bad press associated with the victory, Covenant has sent an email to the TAPPS to declare its desire to forfeit the game. The message from Queal and Todd Doshier, the North Dallas Christian school's chairman, called the 100-0 final a "victory without honor," "shameful" and an "embarrassment."

Dallas Academy athletic director Jeremy Civello said his school accepted the "heartfelt" apology from Queal, and the Covenant’s athletic director Brice Helton.

Civello also said that the girl’s team does not want to be credited with a victory they didn’t earn. "Covenant has a great team," Civello said. "We wish them all the best for the rest of the season. We don't think what happened is a reflection on those girls in any way.” He added, “There are a lot of good people at that school. We hope this blows over."

Civello already considers the game to be a victory for the Dallas Academy girls, "My girls never quit. They played as hard as they could to the very end. They played with all their hearts at 70-nothing, 80-nothing and 100-nothing. I was really proud of them. That's what I told them after the game."

They say that attitude reflects leadership and the attitude shown by the girls is commendable.

Dallas Academy is a school for people with learning disadvantages such as attention span or concentration issues. They have an enrollment of approximately 141 students, eight of which are on the girl’s varsity basketball team. They haven’t won a game in four years. The school slogan is: “Confidence is restored. Frustration is lessened. Barriers are overcome. Learning Takes Place. Success is possible at Dallas Academy.”

The Covenant is 6-3 (not counting the victory over Dallas). Their three losses have come at the hands of larger schools. They are undefeated in the district, winning games 54-29, 66-7, and 77-27.

Remember that the Covenant School is a private Christian school? Their slogan is: “Academic Excellence under the Sovereignty of God” On their website, they state, “We encourage students to seek truth, to develop character, and to serve others.”

What makes this victory so alarming is not how the Convenant girls behaved as I believe they were doing as their coaches instructed. This has more to do with the behavior of the parents coaches for Covenant. According to eyewitnesses, the parents and one of the assistant coaches were cheering wildly for the Covenant girls and urged them to run the score up in the hopes of achieving 100 points.

The Covenant strategy consisted of a full court press and continued three point attempts well into the fourth quarter. Covenant was winning 59-0 at the half (88-0 at the end of three). Once the 100-point threshold was reached, the team stopped the press and went into run-out-the-clock mode.

Civello commended the Covenant team, "They are really good. Their point guard is terrific. This is what it came down to in the second half: steal at half court and layup. Steal and layup. Steal and layup. It was a layup drill. They finally eased up when they got to 100 with about four minutes left." Sources indicate that Covenant's point guard finished with 48 points.


Covenant coach Micah Grimes said the right things in an email after the game when he said, "It's unfortunate we got to 100 points in the game against Dallas Academy. It just happened, and we are not happy about that.”

They say that actions speak louder than words and Grimes’ words don’t ring in tune with his actions. It is by his direction that the Covenant School continued the full court press and repeated three pointers in an obvious attempt to run the score up on the disadvantaged youth of the Dallas Academy.

I respect the decisions made by the Head of the Covenant School as I believe that a victory without honor is no victory at all. I also respect the statements made by the Dallas Academy athletic director when he refused to accept the forfeit.

I truly believe that prep athletics are about developing people as much as they are about developing players. Only after these two goals are accomplished, then you work to achieve an honorable victory.

As a parent of two children in high school athletics, I am saddened by the message sent to the Covenant girls by their coaching staff and by their parents.

On a final note, I have seen some information that after the game, Dallas Academy informed TAPPS that it was withdrawing it's girl's team from the league for the rest of the season. I hope they change their mind. It sounds like they have good administrators and coaches that have worked hard to keep the team motivated in the face of adversity.

UPDATE

After this statement from the officials of Covenant, "It is shameful and an embarrassment that this happened. This clearly does not reflect a Christ-like and honourable approach to competition," Head Coach Micah Grimes released a statement of his own.

Grimes said in an email to the "legitimate" media, "In response to the statement posted on The Covenant School website, I do not agree with the apology or the notion that the Covenant School girls basketball team should feel embarrassed or ashamed. We played the game as it was meant to be played. My values and my beliefs would not allow me to run up the score on any opponent, and it will not allow me to apologize for a wide-margin victory when my girls played with honour and integrity."

He has been dismissed from the school. Kyle Queal, said in the Dallas Morning News online edition that he could not answer if the firing was a result of Grimes' e-mail.

Please, for the love of all things sane, someone who keeps harping on this explain to me how the fuck that is whining?"

I'm beginning to realize that the Covenant fiasco has victimized Dallas far worse. The publicity made them drop the basketball program. They never won, they persevered, they were often blown out. They never gave up. Covenant comes along and crushes them and then all kinds of peckerwoods call them names, make fun of them more calling them losers and whiners. Fuck.

[RainMaker]

I'm of the firm belief that in today's America sportsmanship is often code for excessive coddling. 100-0 is a tad ridiculous, but I put just as much blame on the losing coach for not having the balls to do something during the game and instead make a big deal out of it after the fact.

If the losing coach had issue with what was going on there were things he could have and should have done DURING the game to either make his point or put a stop to it. Personally, I would have called a time out as soon as things got out of hand and he continued to press and then explained that either he back his kids off or I'm not sending my kids back out there and everyone can have have an early night. If the winning coach really was doing the things he's accused of I'm willing to bet he'd rather have his wide margin of victory go down in the scorebooks rather than a forfeit. Forfeiting the game would have been my absolute last resort, but in the same position I would be willing to do so in order to make my point.

Lets also not pretend that high school sports is 2nd grade parks and rec league here. Coaches at the high school level lose their jobs in a lot of places based on wins and loses and the vast majority of players at that level are out there to win while having a firm understanding of defeat. There's no need to go throwing some kids on Oprah or giving them national attention because they got their asses kicked and their coach chose to whine about it only after the game was finished. Yes, coaches at the high school level are in charge of helping develop these kids but knowing how to handle embarrassment and losing is a huge part of athletics.

Its been pointed out at various points during this thread, but its obvious those girls had absolutely no business playing at the level they were playing at. If it took a 100-0 loss for the school's AD or the state's board to realize it then its a good thing in the long run and the AD should be held responsible for putting the in the position to begin with if we want to point fingers.

There's things that each side could learn from this experience but judging from the grab at media some attention and 15 minutes of fame I'm willing to bet very little is learned from this other than the fact the girls had no business having that team on their schedule.

The other coach was not the one to complain and hasn't since the game. I don't see how he could be blamed for anything. He wasn't dealt much of a hand and pulling the kids off the court would have probably been more embarrassing than the loss.

While I can see how certain acts of sportsmanship can go too far, I still think it's important. This is still just a game. But I'm also one that thinks many sports have turned into circus acts with degenerates insulting the integrity of the game. I guess I'd rather have more guys like Tony Dungy in the sporting world than Terrell Owens.

The fact this story has gotten national news is ridiculous. It was just a high school game. I think scoring 100 on a disadvantaged school is classless, but not worthy of a spot on CNN. If there is one good thing that can come out of this, it should be the addition of a running clock to basketball games. It would alleviate messes like this.

[Atocep]

Absolutely. A girls team from a private school small enough that they can only field 8 players is obviously a high pressure, win at all costs girls basketball factory. I can't believe we've all overlooked that.

They were obviously playing a team that takes winning and losing very seriously. If they that's not what their school is looking for then they shouldn't put teams like that on their schedule. As I said, if it took a 100-0 loss for the school to realize that then it falls on the coach and AD for setting those girls up for failure to begin with.



Do you have any cite at all showing this coach whining? Anything? I've asked before. Bueller?

I would personally consider this whining if you're actually putting this out in the media. But maybe thats just me.

"They are really good. Their point guard is terrific. This is what it came down to in the second half: steal at half court and layup. Steal and layup. Steal and layup. It was a layup drill. They finally eased up when they got to 100 with about four minutes left."
This is a blatant knock at Covenant's coach.

We don't think what happened is a reflection on those girls in any way
Once again, they were set up to fail and if the coach actually had a problem with what he was seeing there were things he should have done during the game to at least attempt to put a stop to it.

The other coach was not the one to complain and hasn't since the game. I don't see how he could be blamed for anything. He wasn't dealt much of a hand and pulling the kids off the court would have probably been more embarrassing than the loss.

While I can see how certain acts of sportsmanship can go too far, I still think it's important. This is still just a game. But I'm also one that thinks many sports have turned into circus acts with degenerates insulting the integrity of the game. I guess I'd rather have more guys like Tony Dungy in the sporting world than Terrell Owens.

The fact this story has gotten national news is ridiculous. It was just a high school game. I think scoring 100 on a disadvantaged school is classless, but not worthy of a spot on CNN. If there is one good thing that can come out of this, it should be the addition of a running clock to basketball games. It would alleviate messes like this.
I agree with almost all of this. I do believe these girls were put in a bad situation and that should have been avoided and I also hope that this makes schools in similar situations take a step back and reevaluate their programs and the level they're competing at.

When I played basketball in high school there was a small private christian school that was literally right down the hill from my school. We played at the state's lowest level and that school had less than 50 students total so if they chose to compete at the state level they would have been in the same league we were. However, they chose not to and instead scheduled exhibitions against very small schools throughout the area for their "season". If they had played my school or any other in our league they could have easily lost by 100 but their school had the intelligence to realize they had no business playing competitive schools and instead came up with a way to allow the kids to play a season and not get embarrassed on a regular basis.

[Axxon]

They were obviously playing a team that takes winning and losing very seriously. If they that's not what their school is looking for then they shouldn't put teams like that on their schedule. As I said, if it took a 100-0 loss for the school to realize that then it falls on the coach and AD for setting those girls up for failure to begin with.

No, both teams are tiny little christian schools. Both only fielded 8 girls. Neither team take winning and losing very seriously.


I would personally consider this whining if you're actually putting this out in the media. But maybe thats just me.

I must say, I really don't see it. Maybe your whineometer is so tightly wound that anything not 100% obsequious sets it off but man that's magnifying the smallest nit just to not have to admit you might have been wrong about the guy.

SHURG, maybe I'm just too callous that obviously blatant whining doesn't even register but then again, that's kinda funny that you're the real sensitive one when it comes to defending poor lil Micah but I'm debating a more sensitive solution for both teams while you advocate crushing then humiliating high school girls. Who knows.

[Oilers9911]

:+1:

Pussy footed liberals like muns and rainmaker think everyone should be a winner and made to feel good.

Every time you post you say something dumber than the previous time. In the NBA, when a team is up 20+ points, do they full court press? Jack-up threes? In the NFL when teams are up 20 in the 4th quarter do they still throw the deep ball? No, they run the ball. Are they pussy-footed Liberals too?

If you think high school sports is all about kicking someone's ass by as much a score as possible then you obviously don't get the point. Sure, win the game and if you happen to win big fine as long as you win big with a little class and honour. Two traits that you obviously do not possess.

[Noop]

Every time you post you say something dumber than the previous time. In the NBA, when a team is up 20+ points, do they full court press? Jack-up threes? In the NFL when teams are up 20 in the 4th quarter do they still throw the deep ball? No, they run the ball. Are they pussy-footed Liberals too?

If you think high school sports is all about kicking someone's ass by as much a score as possible then you obviously don't get the point. Sure, win the game and if you happen to win big fine as long as you win big with a little class and honour. Two traits that you obviously do not possess.

Geez how smart does that make you for responding to my dumb post? If you read the entire argument then I don't need to state what I think about that game.

You stay classy.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Says the guy who told the the "pussy footed liberals" to stop posting lest their skirts continue to ride up showing their female genitalia.

[Noop]

Says the guy who told the the "pussy footed liberals" to stop posting lest their skirts continue to ride up showing their female genitalia.

I edited that out because it was a bit too much... but you go ahead.

[Bad-example]

what better...pussy foot or athlete's vagina?

[JonInMiddleGA]

what better...pussy foot or athlete's vagina?

Depends on the athlete I'd think.

[Lathum]

Now, I certainly believe you're telling the truth and it's really sad you've never had good role models to follow. I did. This was too easy though.

.

Are you serious?

Who the fuck are you to criticize my role models growing up?

This comment makes you the biggest piece of shit on this board. What gives you the right to be all high and mighty because you have a different opinion or have had one different experience at one game. The personal attacks by some of you in this thread have been absurd. Just because someone disagrees with your opinion doesn't make them ignorant. Or raised poorly.

You know ZERO about me except I have an opinion on why I think NFL teams take a knee at the end of a game. I was raised by loving parents who were tremendous role models, my soccer coach growing up was an ex- MLB player who preached sportsmanship, I know plenty about it.

You need to step back before you make such a harsh statement about someone you don't even know, because it's beyond insulting and way below the belt.

I am educated, own a home, and am a loving and faithful husband. My role models did just fine.

[RendeR]

Now, I certainly believe you're telling the truth and it's really sad you've never had good role models to follow. I did.

Wow, you know I love a good blow up argument as much as the next guy but this crosses a serious line axxon.

Ignorance is defined as lacking knowledge. This statement of yours is truly ignorant.

You owe lathum a large apology and you need to step the fuck out of this discussion. No matter right or wrong anyone is you don't get to go there and not get your ass called for it.

[RendeR]

DOLA: guess I should read the rest of the thread before responding, I see Lathum already chewed you a new ass.

[lighthousekeeper]

Depends on the athlete I'd think.

thread winner

[Solecismic]

I wonder why this is so important to so many people. One of the elements in the world of sports that appeals to me is that each game starts 0-0, and you're usually guaranteed a fair contest. At the end of the game, you shake hands and you prepare for the next match-up.

Lately, it appears that fans feel entitled to specific results. It's too much a blow to the ego to lose by more than a certain amount, so outcomes are legislated. Mercy rules, taking a knee, whatever. When I played sports as a little kid, I just wanted experience. I didn't care about the score. I stunk at basketball, so blowouts were my opportunity to get some serious playing time.

I'm wondering when the first lawsuit appears from this mess. Little Brittany is forever damaged because some big bad opponent whipped her team by 100 rather than 60.

I honestly don't think Little Brittany cares all that much. It's her parents and Oprah and probably the International Herald Tribune by now telling her how much damage she's suffered.

The NFL comparison is all about the fans, not the players. There were two games in the NFL this season where the final margin was 40 or more points. In one case, neither team made the playoffs. In the other, one reached the Super Bowl and the other didn't make the playoffs, either. I'm sure there are many Arizona fans who are still upset about that loss, however.

[Barkeep49]

I've not read this whole thread, only the last page and parts of page 3, so I apologize if this has been stated already, but I thought I'd reiterate a comment I've made on some coaching boards.

I feel this coach failed his own team. Look at the shame, and embarrassment which seems to be at least as much as what the losing team felt, that he has brought on his own girls by running up the score. Sure not every coach who runs up the score has it turned into a national media story, but at least once a season in football and basketball these things seem to come up nationally. This media firestorm was entirely predictable and this coach's actions have caused harm, if only through his being fired, to his own team. Even if you feel the coach has no obligation to the other team (though I do, as I don't think one human being should ever willfully embarrass another, though I have the opportunity to do so many times a day and sometimes it could even be called the "greater good"), I would argue the coach failed his obligation to his own team.

[Axxon]

Are you serious?

Who the fuck are you to criticize my role models growing up?

This comment makes you the biggest piece of shit on this board. What gives you the right to be all high and mighty because you have a different opinion or have had one different experience at one game. The personal attacks by some of you in this thread have been absurd. Just because someone disagrees with your opinion doesn't make them ignorant. Or raised poorly.

You know ZERO about me except I have an opinion on why I think NFL teams take a knee at the end of a game. I was raised by loving parents who were tremendous role models, my soccer coach growing up was an ex- MLB player who preached sportsmanship, I know plenty about it.

You need to step back before you make such a harsh statement about someone you don't even know, because it's beyond insulting and way below the belt.

I am educated, own a home, and am a loving and faithful husband. My role models did just fine.

Lathum. I didn't mean what you took from that line. I can't blame you for thinking I did though and I apologize for the misunderstanding.


That whole thing though was posted in lieu of something that I'd written that trust me, was way over the top and was emotion flowing. It was never intended to be posted and it was pure venting not what I really feel about you. There was a bit of snarkiness intended when I wrote that sentence but I never intended it to be hurtful nor thought it'd be taken that way.

I was talking about a sports role model and specifically an NFL model as that was what I was replying to. Certainly I had no thoughts about growing up role models. My example happened 8 years ago and I'm 45. Role models are always role models no matter how old you are.

You were getting very insistant that no one in professional football ever does anything for sportsmanship purposes and you gave an example that I happened to know really does and did happen. I was sincere in wishing you'd been able to experience something like that because, even though I was farther to the sportsman side of the continuum ( no other way to say this so I'll just add in my opinion since this isn't the post for discussion of the issue ) than you are I was moved by that display and thought maybe you might have been to.

Unfortunately I poisoned that with unfortunate word choices so again I apologize.

[Axxon]

Wow, you know I love a good blow up argument as much as the next guy but this crosses a serious line axxon.

Ignorance is defined as lacking knowledge. This statement of yours is truly ignorant.

You owe lathum a large apology and you need to step the fuck out of this discussion. No matter right or wrong anyone is you don't get to go there and not get your ass called for it.

Now is not the time to go into it but suffice it to say you've burned some bridges with me today. Ironically you yourself posted

The sad thing is people outside the game (the BB game) couldn't keep their mouths shut and their personal whining to themselves.

I really wish you could have followed your own advice.