If there wasn't enough reasons to stop caring about baseball...

[GrantDawg]

This board just ate a long post on this subject, so I'll just recap. Read this link…Braves remove Van Wieren and Caray from TBS (http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/sports/braves/0303/27braves.html)

I’ve always been a Braves fan first, then a baseball fan. Because of the way the league and players have disconnected with the fans, I have slowly become a Braves fan only (not caring at all about baseball as a whole). Now, I just don’t think I care at all. Thank you big corporations for turning America’s pastime into American history.

[ice4277]

What's baseball? That sport that started a slow lingering death in the early 90's?

[Ksyrup]

You're kidding, right? I don't know 5 people who like the Braves announcers. I just wish they would have canned them all.

The "balanced" coverage is an obvious attempt to try to cut into Fox Sports Net's regional coverage of all teams. Rather than be a Braves-only network, they want to appear as if they are a national version of Fox's regional networks. My guess is that Van Wieren and Caray are too well-identified as Braves announcers (certainly more than the other two), and they had to go.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Interesting, because I've gone in the opposite direction, becoming less and less of a Braves fan and about equally interested in any number of teams.

As for the broadcast switch, it bugged me a little when I first heard about it but the more I thought about it, the more sense it made.

Pete is a solid traditional broadcaster, so smart that he can border on being too smart for his own good sometimes. But I think he's the most radio-oriented member of the group, so perhaps there's some logic for slotting him there most often.

Sutton is, well, Sutton. Which can be both good & bad. But he's comfortable like an old shoe at this point & doesn't run too many people away from the broadcasts no matter what else.

Simpson is one of the most improved player-turned-announcer cases I can think of. I might argue that he's become the best all-around member of the team & increasing his top job air time is a deserved reward for his efforts.

Caray has been the weakest link in the group for quite a while now, he's gone from funny to just downright annoying at times. And his personality (particularly on the pre-game call-in show) had caused some legit concerns about the damage he might be doing to the team / network image until he toned things down a year or so ago.

[MylesKnight]

Skip Carey and Pete Van Wieren are the damn Atlanta Braves..

And let me get this right, TBS (and Turner South) will still broadcast the majority of the Braves 162 games but will now be a bit more "neutral" in their treatment of the Braves and the team their playing that particular day?

Just another on the looooonnnngg list of AOL/Time Warner blunders.

[Logan]

I agree with all the Anti-Braves' announcers comments. Way too annoying.

[Draft Dodger]

I liked them, but I don't watch baseball anymore anyway.

for more info, see ice4277's above post.

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
Thank you big corporations for turning America’s pastime into American history.

Huh, all this time I thought it was greedy players like Jim Thome and Albert Belle that ruined baseball.

[Havok]

I havent watched a whole Regular season baseball game in 6-7 years. Fuck all those overpaid assholes. If they dont salary cap baseball soon its gonna fold. And it wont hurt my feelings one bit if it did fold.

I say they get the serious owners together.... start a new league with about 24 teams. Put in a 50 million dollar salary cap and make ticket prices to the games LOW LOW LOW!! like they used to be.

I just cant understand how some people like the way baseball is today. The yankee's and there 150 million dollar payroll and Tampa Bay and there 24 million dollar payroll.

Its a joke

[The_herd]

Originally posted by lynchjm24
Huh, all this time I thought it was greedy players like Jim Thome and Albert Belle that ruined baseball.



Ok, first of all, explain how Jim Thome is greedy, then why he was even mentioned in the same sentence as Albert Belle.

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by lynchjm24
Huh, all this time I thought it was greedy players like Jim Thome and Albert Belle that ruined baseball.

They both go hand in hand.

I'll post the letter I sent to the Braves and the paper. It may explain the background of my feelings a little better.

I've been a fan of the Braves for as long as I can remember. This is literally, because I can remember as a little boy of 6 watching the Braves on channel 17 while sitting on my father’s lap. My dad would teach me about the game and we would both root for the home team along with Skip, Pete, Ernie and the rest of the gang.

Major league baseball has done much in the past few years to remove the early innocence of the game. It has become such a big business that it now really only caters to business. Yet through it all, I have been a Braves fan and still have that connection with the past while watching the game and hearing my old pals Skip, Pete, Joe and Don.

Now with the Braves making this final step in turning away from the fans by removing Skip and Pete from TBS and making their television booths less fan friendly and more just a "national" broadcast, they have left any reason for me to continue to be a fan behind.

Thank you AOL for ripping the heart out of something that so many people truly enjoyed.

[MylesKnight]

"I haven't watched a whole Regular season baseball game in 6-7 years."

My thoughts exactly.. Hell, I'd have to say I haven't watched more than 3 Innings or so of any game in that same amount of time... if that.

Ahh, how lovely it is to be without a Salary Cap.

MLB = The Anti-NFL..

...and they wonder why they are no longer considered America's "Pasttime".. Actually MLB does seem to be "Past its Time", my mistake.

[Havok]

P.S. and if Hockey doesnt do something soon... its gonna end up the same way.

Hockey needs to take out the red line...... eject anyone who fights in a game and suspended them for 1 more game after that.

Hockey has become such a Grab and hold kinda sport(New Jersey Devils Hockey) That all the great skaters and stick handlers cant work there magic.

If they would just turn American Hockey into European hockey(fast paced and great skating) and slash ticket prices and player salery's in half. Hockey would be much more enjoyable to watch.

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by The_herd
Ok, first of all, explain how Jim Thome is greedy, then why he was even mentioned in the same sentence as Albert Belle.

My line was a play (often imitated) about the connection between Chris Truby and Albert Belle from rec.sport.baseball.

I guess you haven't been in many of our small market/large market arguments. :) I don't think players are greedy. I just think the owners are stupid (although they had a nice offseason).

By the way, whoever wants a salary cap to lower tickets didn't get my Giants season ticket renewal. You try getting people to fork over 70$ a game in March/April when you have no idea what your team's record will be. On top of the fact that you have to build an extra 420$ into the tickets because you are forced to buy 2 preseason games.

[Buddy Grant]

I enjoyed them but they were were sometimes painful to listen to, not only for being "homers' but also for their lack of knowledge of most other players & teams.

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by Havok
P.S. and if Hockey doesnt do something soon... its gonna end up the same way.

Hockey needs to take out the red line...... eject anyone who fights in a game and suspended them for 1 more game after that.

Hockey has become such a Grab and hold kinda sport(New Jersey Devils Hockey) That all the great skaters and stick handlers cant work there magic.

If they would just turn American Hockey into European hockey(fast paced and great skating) and slash ticket prices and player salery's in half. Hockey would be much more enjoyable to watch.

Only problems with your arguments:
70% of the players are against taking out the redline.
Fans love fighting.
There aren't enough great skaters and stick handlers to go around.
European hockey stinks.

I'm not sure how the price of the ticket or what a player makes game enjoyable or unenjoyable to watch.

[McSweeny]

Originally posted by MylesKnight
"I haven't watched a whole Regular season baseball game in 6-7 years."

My thoughts exactly.. Hell, I'd have to say I haven't watched more than 3 Innings or so of any game in that same amount of time... if that.

i think i watched about 120 red sox games last year... maybe more and listened to a handfull on the radio

[Havok]

Only problems with your arguments:
70% of the players are against taking out the redline.
Fans love fighting.
There aren't enough great skaters and stick handlers to go around.

Well somehting has to be done. 90% of hockey franchises are losing money. Take a look at the arena's next time you watch a hockey game. Most of them are half full at best.

European hockey stinks.

I'd much rather watch a fast paced and great skating game, then a bunch of guys wrestling around for the puck.

[Ksyrup]

I can't wait to fire up my baseball package on DirecTV.

[The_herd]

Originally posted by lynchjm24
My line was a play (often imitated) about the connection between Chris Truby and Albert Belle from rec.sport.baseball.

I guess you haven't been in many of our small market/large market arguments. :) I don't think players are greedy. I just think the owners are stupid (although they had a nice offseason).


Understood now.

And I do agree that owners are stupid, but I will also say that a fairly high percentage of the players are greedy.

I don't agree though that the owners had a nice offseason, and I believe it will show in a year or 2. The Yankee's have already shown that the luxery tax isn't going to stop them, the Royals, Marlin's and Brewer's, and Pirates aren't getting any better, the A's can't keep one of their core players (the Twin's will soon run into the same situation), and I won't even talk about the Devil Ray's and Expos.

They got some pathetic excuse for Drug Testing approved, "We test for a couple years and if a certain percentage of you are stupid enough to fail a drug test then everyone can stop worrying about ever taking another." Add to this the fact that the only time a mid-market team can sign some free agents is when the get a new stadium. So enjoy your run Philladelphia, you can make another in 30 years or so.

[FBPro]

I think I'm gonna cry.......

[Swaggs]

Sorry to the Braves' fans. Even though I hate the Braves and think Skip is annoying (I always liked Pete Van Wieren, though), I think it is sad to see the ownership disassociate itself from one of its most indentifiable assets.

If it is of any consolation to GD and other Braves' fans, the Pirates tried something like this a few years ago when the moved longtime Lanny Fratere (Voice of the Pirates) to radio broadcasts only. The decision had such a level of backlash, that the move only lasted for a few months.

[Neuqua]

On a positive note, Steve Stone is back broadcasting for the Cubs this season!

You don't know hell until you've listened to Joe Carter and Dave Otto.

Neuqua

[Swaggs]

Man, Joe Carter is really bad.

[Neuqua]

Originally posted by Swaggs
Man, Joe Carter is really bad.

Yah, and Hitler was really mean.

;)

[Shkspr]

By the way, I want to thank everyone who doesn't watch baseball anymore.

Those seats I had at the Ballpark on my visit last year were great. I'm planning a summer trip to the Bay Area this year; if anyone with seats in section 117 or 119 at Pac Bell Park has an attack of moral outrage, PM me; I've got an extra fifteen bucks to spend for three tix.

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by The_herd
Understood now.

And I do agree that owners are stupid, but I will also say that a fairly high percentage of the players are greedy.

I don't agree though that the owners had a nice offseason, and I believe it will show in a year or 2. The Yankee's have already shown that the luxery tax isn't going to stop them, the Royals, Marlin's and Brewer's, and Pirates aren't getting any better, the A's can't keep one of their core players (the Twin's will soon run into the same situation), and I won't even talk about the Devil Ray's and Expos.

They got some pathetic excuse for Drug Testing approved, "We test for a couple years and if a certain percentage of you are stupid enough to fail a drug test then everyone can stop worrying about ever taking another." Add to this the fact that the only time a mid-market team can sign some free agents is when the get a new stadium. So enjoy your run Philladelphia, you can make another in 30 years or so.

If you think Philadelphia is a middle market team then we are just going to have to stop talking. Philadelphia is the fourth largest television market in the United States. It is also the largest market that only has ONE team (LA, Chi, NY have 2 each). If you think doing things like signing David Bell is how to build a winning franchise, then I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Philadelphia did go to the WS in 1993 anyway, just on the sheer amount of teams in the league - a franchise would hypothetically go to the WS once every 16 years. They won in 1980 and went in 1993. So in the last 23 years they have gone twice.

Somehow the A's can't keep their core players, yet they have won 100 games 3 years in a row and their roster is so much better then anyone's in the AL West it's silly. They have even more pitching on the way with the likes of Rich Harden and others.

The Twins would be well served to not keep some of their players. They have more guys then they know what to do with. Their AA first baseman Justin Morneau is already a much better hitter then Mienkiewicz, plus they have more good young corner outfielders then they have slots. They keep Johan Santana in the bullpen and he's better then at least 3 of the starters they are using.

I'm not quite sure why you think a large percentage of the players are greedy. When they get to free agency they take the highest contract? Not always - and who among us wouldn't leave their jobs for more money. If there was some shortage of underwriters and companies were offering me 3 and 4 times what I make, of course I would go and so would you. Can we get a list of these 'greedy' players (be sure to include Albert Belle).

As for drug testing - I don't see why it's such a big deal in baseball. Have you seen what football players look like lately. The NFL is perfect in everyone's mind yet the average NFL player is about 30% bigger then the players of just 12 years ago.

When I said the owners had a good offseason I didn't mean that some of the bad teams Marlins, Brewers, ect got better, I meant that teams realized you don't have to offer arbitration to middling players and they drove the prices in free agency way down from prior years. The Marlins fired their mascot for god's sake - they wanted to sell their best player to Japan, they added Juan Pierre and Todd Hollinsworth - ever think the reason they aren't going to win is just because they are clueless? The Royals traded for Neifi Perez - that's all I need to know about that organization.

I should stop getting into these conversations, people just want to see what they want to see.

[andy m]

people have a misconception that baseball sucks because Bud Selig loves telling everyone what a crappy league MLB is. people need to stop listening to that jerk, stop reading the junk that is on papers and internet sites simply to fill space and watch or listen to a game of baseball. don't listen to Bud Selig and the tripe filled opinions of local journalists. they are wrong. baseball is fantastic, we live in an era of some of the greatest players of all time (Bonds, Alex Rodriguez, Pedro Martinez...) and i guess people forgot about the world series already. or didn't watch it because Bud Selig told them it was a fluke that the Yankees and Braves weren't contesting it so it wasn't worth bothering with.

[Ksyrup]

Ah, one of the time-tested rituals of FOFC...a baseball economics debate. I've had my say so many times in so many different threads over the past couple of years, that I'm staying out of it from now on, unless I feel like I have to respond to a particular point.

Instead, I'll just say Play Ball!

[Ksyrup]

Dola.

OK, I can't help myself, but only because I just read this column last night and one of the points made fits perfectly here. This is from Jayson Stark's most recent column:


Yes, for all the propaganda you may have digested about how many teams go to spring training knowing they have no chance, this sport is actually way less predictable than advertised. Only six of the last 25 World Series have matched two teams that both had been in the playoffs the year before. So by our count, 76 percent haven't.


I acknowledge that these numbers are what the are because baseball has far fewer playoff teams than the other sports. But that's beside the point - the system is what it is, and those numbers do not add up to what everyone thinks they do. All anyone sees is the Yankees on one end, and the Brewers/Tigers/Royals on the other, and automatically jumps to conclusions. I'll agree - well-run teams with unlimited money certainly can make the playoffs quite frequently, and poorly-run teams who waste their money will be perenial cellar-dwellers. And the latter description used to include the Indians, Braves, Mariners, and A's, among many. But that leaves an awful lot of teams in the middle, and those stats prove that many of the those teams are getting a bite at the playoff apple, even if not on a year-to-year basis.

And isn't that what's going on in the NFL? Your Super Bowl Champ one year is out of the playoffs the next year, very few teams are stringing together years of playoff appearances, etc. The difference is perception of the two sports, leadership in those sports, and (I'll admit it) relative popularity of the two sports. When you don't like something, you see what you want to see. And I know that baseball isn't as popular anymore, so people enjoy picking on it. If it's too boring for you, then don't watch it. I'll watch more than enough for all of us (although not enough, I'm sure, to continue lining the pockets of the owners).

And one more comment - I think the fact that baseball has as few playoff teams as it does is a plus. I think having 6-8 playoff teams per league (conference, whatever) is a joke. I just saw last night on ESPN that the Wizards are fighting for the 8th spot in the East, and there record is something like 30-37. For all the crap baseball takes about being all for money, nothing screams CASH! to me like putting teams with not just .500 records, but well under .500 records, in the playoffs, just to sell tickets to a virtually meaningless 3-5 "playoff" games.

OK, now I'm done!

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
Instead, I'll just say Play Ball! Preach the Word. Preach the Word.

Back to the original topic, it is fine with me. I only watch 5-10 games a year on TV. On the other hand, I listen on radio every single night if I am at home. I prefer to have the radio on, and a TV in the background, but I'm typically at the computer desk, radio on, my back to the TV. I watch replays of good plays, but otherwise, I'll continue to get plenty of good ol' Braves homerism. ;)

[Butter]

The Reds new stadium opens this year. I listen to as many games on the radio as I can, and have been known to become indignant when important games are not shown, in favor of showing more of "The Best (ha!) Damn Sports Show".

[oykib]

Originally posted by Ksyrup



I acknowledge that these numbers are what the are because baseball has far fewer playoff teams than the other sports. But that's beside the point - the system is what it is, and those numbers do not add up to what everyone thinks they do. All anyone sees is the Yankees on one end, and the Brewers/Tigers/Royals on the other, and automatically jumps to conclusions. I'll agree - well-run teams with unlimited money certainly can make the playoffs quite frequently, and poorly-run teams who waste their money will be perenial cellar-dwellers. And the latter description used to include the Indians, Braves, Mariners, and A's, among many. But that leaves an awful lot of teams in the middle, and those stats prove that many of the those teams are getting a bite at the playoff apple, even if not on a year-to-year basis.

And one more comment - I think the fact that baseball has as few playoff teams as it does is a plus. I think having 6-8 playoff teams per league (conference, whatever) is a joke. I just saw last night on ESPN that the Wizards are fighting for the 8th spot in the East, and there record is something like 30-37. For all the crap baseball takes about being all for money, nothing screams CASH! to me like putting teams with not just .500 records, but well under .500 records, in the playoffs, just to sell tickets to a virtually meaningless 3-5 "playoff" games.

OK, now I'm done!

Actually, it's a 4-7 game series now. And football is considering matching them by putting either seven or eight teams per conference in. That's a joke.

I was listening tsports radio on the internet yesterday and I heard this moronic statement, "I don't have a problem with them adding one or two teams to the mix. Because...if you look at last year, New England, Miami, New Orleans, etc. didn't make it. A lot of deserving teams didn't get in."

If they deserved to get in, they would have. The league already lets in over a third of the teams. What do you want? Win more games than two thirds of your conference and you're in.

This guy went on to say that the only problem with the seven team proposal is that it lets one team have a bye. That was unfair in his opinion because it put the other 'deserving' playoff team at a competetive disadvantage. He quoted a stat that NFC teams with the bye week were, maybe, 18-2 in the divisional round. That's obviously because of the unfair system.

Might it not have something to do with the fact that they earned the bye by being better teams.

Baseball, in my opinion, made a mistake with the wildcard. The best the Giants ever drew in Candlestick was in a year in which they missed the playoffs. They won 103 games. But Atlanta won 104 to take the division. But people paccked the stadium everyday because all the games were important. Had there been a wildcard, the winner of the NL West that year probablyt would have had 98 or 99 wins and the other team would've been satisfied with a 96-win wildcard finish.

[Ksyrup]

I liked baseball the way it was, but I'm OK with it the way it is, too. I think in certain years, having the wild card helps create races that might not have been, based on the division races. For people with attention spans too short to follow an entire baseball season, adding an anti-climatic race for the playoffs is not good.

The wild card, plus the 3rd division in each league, doubled the number of races to follow, and while it also doubled the number of playoff teams, I don't think anyone would argue that 4 playoff teams in each league is too many (other than a purist). It doesn't degrade the quality of playoff competition like it does in the NBA and NHL. That said, I have no doubt that at some point, baseball will attempt to expand the number of playoff teams to make more money. I hope not, and the good thing is that weather will be a factor in limiting the length of the post-season, but I could see them deciding to scale back the regular season to 154 games in order to add another round of playoff series.

[KWhit]

I've been a Braves fan my whole life. My father had season tix during the 80s so we were some of the 2000-3000 fans in the seats during those tough years.

I like Pete and will miss him, but Skip Caray has to be the worst announcer I've ever heard. I have no respect for him based mainly on his pre-game show. He constantly berates callers and treats them as if they're idiots. And he never seems to be enjoying himself - it's always like it's a chore to be there. That has always bothered me, so I say good riddance.

But, their idea of making more of a national broadcast is a BAD idea! Their core audience is what? BRAVES fans! Man, I wish Ted would buy the team back.

[Ksyrup]

He can't afford to. He's lost 6-7 Billion in net worth in the last couple of years.

Or so he says.

[damnMikeBrown]

Ahh yes, another fine Cincinnati sports enterprise. We build them a new ball park, and they cut $10 million in payroll. Yes, nothing like taking one for the team.

Owners will soon be clamoring to move to Cincinnati, to put their over priced, low quality teams on the field, and have the city pay them to stay time and time again.

[Ben E Lou]

Who would have thought just a few years back that the Braves would be beseiged by boneheaded management decisions, while everyone in Atlanta would be genuflecting in praise of the FALCONS management?????? :confused:

"You can never have too many tight ends."--Dan Reeves

[astralhaze]

Originally posted by lynchjm24
Huh, all this time I thought it was greedy players like Jim Thome and Albert Belle that ruined baseball.

Thank you for reminding me of the now legendary Chris Truby, Albert Belle rec.sports.baseball post.

[oykib]

I don't have a problem with four playoff teams per league. I have a problem with the wildcard.

The wildcard is unfair because of the unbalanced schedule and interleague play. Last year, the AL West was a perfect example of three of the four things that can go wrong with the wildcard.

1. One team can be in a stronger division than its competitors. The Al West had three 90-win teams. And the Rangers were not really a 90-loss team. They just got beat to death by being in a division with three of the top eight teams in baseball. Had the Rangers been closer expectations, Boston might've gotten the wildcard-- despite being markedly inferior to all three AL west contenders.

2. Seattle and Boston both fell off the pace at the beginning of September. So, Anaheim and Oakland really had nothing to play for. They both had great records in September. But if you look back you'll see that they each spent late August to mid-September finishing up their AL Central run.

They were supposed to play a number of meaningful series in September. Those two teams and the Mariners were scheduled to play about nine games against each other division rival in the last month. Because of the wildcard, those games lost most of their drama.

3. The wildcard rival was a team from a crappy division. The Red Sox blew up in the second half of the season. If they had been halfway decent, the Angels, who were the best team in baseball, wouldn't have made it even with the wildcard as an option. The Red Sox get to beat up on Baltimore and the D-Rays all year long. So you can have problem #1, where the teams in your division are very good compounded by the fact that the teams in your competitiors division are terrible.

[EagleFan]

The good news for the Braves fans that are worried about the announcers is that once they finish game 162 you won't have to worry about hearing any Braves announcers, radio or TV, until next season. They'll enjoy that extra time off this year. :D

[ACStrider]

Originally posted by Neuqua
On a positive note, Steve Stone is back broadcasting for the Cubs this season!

You don't know hell until you've listened to Joe Carter and Dave Otto.

Neuqua

Steve Stone! I was always impressed with his commentary. He showed that he really knew what he was talking about. Very in depth commentary. Too bad I refuse to watch baseball now. :mad:

[Ksyrup]

Steve Stone is a very intelligent guy. Although he was a mediocre pitcher who somehow won a Cy Young Award, the guy is a restauranteur, a poet, and an excellent table-top tennis and chess player.

As an announcer, he did a wonderful job handling Harry Caray's faux pas with tact and humor in a way that didn't make Harry look stupid, but in a "wink at the audience" way. Where has he been?