Kentucky: Midwest or not?

[gstelmack]

Just to continue the stupid media theme from the headlines discussion, we have Winter storm blamed for deaths, widespread blackouts - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/weather/01/28/winter.weather/index.html):

(CNN) -- A massive winter storm has left at least 11 people dead and nearly 1 million homes across the Midwest without power, according to reports from state emergency management agencies. Almost half those households are in Kentucky...

So, is Kentucky part of the midwest to you?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Proably depends upon the governmental agency. Given the non-standard way in which geographic regions are defined by different entities, I'm imagine there's at least one somewhere that would put Kentucky in the midwest. For example, the Bureau of Labor Statistics calls it Southeast, the Census Bureau places it in something called East South Central, a subset of South (and their definitions are the ones I usually would default to when in doubt).

But it's probably one of the weakest cases I can think of, and as a border state would likely be one where mistakes could be made most often.

[Coffee Warlord]

Being in the midwest, I don't particularly consider Kentucky to be part of it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Being in the midwest, I don't particularly consider Kentucky to be part of it.

But being in the South I don't really consider at least the northern half of Ohio to be part of it either.

It's a tougher call than it first appears IMO, although I think they erred in the wrong direction when you get right down to it.

[Coffee Warlord]

But being in the South I don't really consider at least the northern half of Ohio to be part of it either.

It's a tougher call than it first appears IMO, although I think they erred in the wrong direction when you get right down to it.

You've confused me. Ohio to you is part of....where?

And I'm just saying, from knee-jerk reaction of what I think of as part of the midwest ... Kentucky ain't in it.

[JediKooter]

Yes, when it was about 1830.

[JonInMiddleGA]

You've confused me. Ohio to you is part of....where?

It really isn't Southeast or South IMO, but that's where you probably have to stick it for lack of a more precise defintion.

It would rightfully belong in some ill-defined region with wherever you put Ohio and I've seen this same sort of thing happen with weather there I think, where they'll talk about storms sweeping across the south and then mention Cincinnati (which definitely isn't South/South East).

[lungs]

Being in the midwest, I don't particularly consider Kentucky to be part of it.

Second that. They don't talk like us.

[Alan T]

I also am from the South originally and I never viewed Kentucky as Mid-west, but neither viewed Ohio either.

I guess I always grouped Ohio, Kentucky and even the southern part of Indiana as some kind of Ohio Valley Region.

To me, the Midwest always was Illinois, Northern part of Missouri, Southern Part of Wisconsin, Northern part of Indiana and Michigan.

This of course is based zero on whatever it was they taught us in school so long ago that I can't even remember what they taught us. It just is how I always grouped areas in my mind I suppose.

[lungs]

To me, the Midwest always was Illinois, Northern part of Missouri, Southern Part of Wisconsin, Northern part of Indiana and Michigan.


Curious as a Wisconsinite, do you group northern Wisconsin with Minnesota?

It's definitely different than Southern Wisconsin. Hell, the dividing line is Highway 8. Different worlds.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Being in the midwest, I don't particularly consider Kentucky to be part of it.

Second that. They don't talk like us.

Thirded.

I consider the Midwest to consist of: Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Ohio, Missouri, Western half of Pennsylvania. I am still not sure about Iowa. I could go either way on it: Midwest or Plains.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I am still not sure about Iowa. I could go either way on it: Midwest or Plains.

Which brings me to one of those unusual governmental definitions I mentioned earlier.

Did you know that the USDA only refers to "Plains" for Texas & Oklahoma, as the "Southern Plains" region? Iowa is part of the "Corn Belt" region with Ohio, Missouri, Indiana, and Illinois. For them Kentucky is part of "Appalachia", with Tennessee, North Carolina, Virginia, and West Virginia.
ERS/USDA Data - Farm Income: USDA Production Regions (http://www.ers.usda.gov/data/farmincome/USDA-Production-regions.htm)

[lungs]

Thirded.

I consider the Midwest to consist of: Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Ohio, Missouri, Western half of Pennsylvania. I am still not sure about Iowa. I could go either way on it: Midwest or Plains.

I always considered Iowa to be Midwest, but a good argument could be made for Plains.

Then again, I'm not sure I'd consider Missouri or Western PA part of the Midwest. That's just kind of my own definition of Midwest, I guess.

[Alan T]

Curious as a Wisconsinite, do you group northern Wisconsin with Minnesota?

It's definitely different than Southern Wisconsin. Hell, the dividing line is Highway 8. Different worlds.


Yes, I guess I always grouped Northern Wisconsin with Minnesota and the Michigan Upper peninsula in my mind. Once again, don't have any idea if that is even accurate as I have only been to Wisconsin once in my life, and never to Minnesota or Michigan :)

[DaddyTorgo]

Proably depends upon the governmental agency. Given the non-standard way in which geographic regions are defined by different entities, I'm imagine there's at least one somewhere that would put Kentucky in the midwest. For example, the Bureau of Labor Statistics calls it Southeast, the Census Bureau places it in something called East South Central, a subset of South (and their definitions are the ones I usually would default to when in doubt).

But it's probably one of the weakest cases I can think of, and as a border state would likely be one where mistakes could be made most often.

what you said. also what you said later about it being appalacha.

[Young Drachma]

Yes, I guess I always grouped Northern Wisconsin with Minnesota and the Michigan Upper peninsula in my mind. Once again, don't have any idea if that is even accurate as I have only been to Wisconsin once in my life, and never to Minnesota or Michigan :)

Superior (proposed U.S. state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_(proposed_U.S._state))

[JPhillips]

I always see the Midwest as the Northwest Territory.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/Northwest-territory-usa-1787.png/250px-Northwest-territory-usa-1787.png

[DanGarion]

Kentucky seems pretty far East to me here in the South West...

[lungs]

Yes, I guess I always grouped Northern Wisconsin with Minnesota and the Michigan Upper peninsula in my mind. Once again, don't have any idea if that is even accurate as I have only been to Wisconsin once in my life, and never to Minnesota or Michigan :)

Yeah that's pretty accurate. Living here, I pretty much consider Northern Minnesota, Northern Wisconsin, and the UP to be cut from the same fabric. Lots of trees, not too many people.

Western Minnesota reminds me more of the Dakotas, flat plains and fucking cold as hell (oxymoron I know). The Twin Cities are kind of an odd ball. They don't fit anywhere.

[ColtCrazy]

I live in Southern Indiana and get local channels from Louisville. Kentucky considers itself a southern state and there's definitely an attitude difference between Kentucky and most of Indiana (southern Indiana is an interesting blend of southern and midwestern culture).

[Swaggs]

Superior (proposed U.S. state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_(proposed_U.S._state))

Wow... that lead to a lengthy wikipedia adventure on proposed secession and proposed states.

[ISiddiqui]

I'm originally from Jersey and always saw Kentucky as a Southern state, but not "Deep South". Kinda like Arkansas.

Always have seen Ohio as Midwest.

[Buccaneer]

Believe it or not, that was the jist of my Master's Thesis. My defense was on a more multi-variate analysis of delimiting a region (i.e., objectivity), citing several studies in geography journals of the fallacy of asking people (particularly college students) what region a state is in or to define a particular region (i.e., subjectivity). The subject area of my thesis was the agricultural Midwest (or the "Deep North", as coined by my mentor).

To answer the question about Kentucky, my analysis showed parts of Kentucky to be in the sphere (think three parts: core-domain-sphere) of the Midwest but abruptly stopping in the Appalachian foothills.

[RendeR]

Kentucky is a southern state as far as I'm concerned. Mason-Dixon baby.


Anything north of that and west of PA is great lakes region. Midwest is everything from mississippi river to the rockies, wet is everything from the great divide west.

whats so hard about this?

[mrkilla22]

Kentucky technically isn't part of the Midwest, but I'm sure some people view it as part of that area.

[ISiddiqui]

Believe it or not, that was the jist of my Master's Thesis. My defense was on a more multi-variate analysis of delimiting a region (i.e., objectivity), citing several studies in geography journals of the fallacy of asking people (particularly college students) what region a state is in or to define a particular region (i.e., subjectivity). The subject area of my thesis was the agricultural Midwest (or the "Deep North", as coined by my mentor).

To answer the question about Kentucky, my analysis showed parts of Kentucky to be in the sphere (think three parts: core-domain-sphere) of the Midwest but abruptly stopping in the Appalachian foothills.

Your analysis may have been easier if you just looked at how many slaves they owned back when you were writing your thesis ;).

I kid, I kid!

[JediKooter]

Yup, just as I thought, Kentucky could have been considered the mid-west in 1830...

[JonInMiddleGA]

wet is everything from the great divide west.


Nah, definitely have to make some distinction between the southwest & the northwest I'd think.

[Daimyo]

Kentucky is part of the South or Appalachia to me...

IMO, the Midwest consists of the Northwest Territory plus Missouri, Iowa, and the rest of Minnesota.

[Ryche]

Kentucky is part of the South or Appalachia to me...

IMO, the Midwest consists of the Northwest Territory plus Missouri, Iowa, and the rest of Minnesota.

Pretty much defines my definition as well, perhaps excluding Missouri. Growing up on the Minnesota-Iowa border, I considered both states Midwest.

[Abe Sargent]

Thirded.

I consider the Midwest to consist of: Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Ohio, Missouri, Western half of Pennsylvania. I am still not sure about Iowa. I could go either way on it: Midwest or Plains.


I consider the Midwest to consist of: Mi, Ilinois, Indiana, Minnesota, Winconsin, Missouri. Perhaps Iowa, but probably not. Western and central Ohio, but not the Applachian area. Erie area, PA. Rest of PA is Applachia. Pittsburgh has more in common with Knoxville (both in Applachia) in character than it does with Detroit. No way eastern Kentucky is midwest. You might argue the western half. The eastern half is among the most Applachian areas of Applachia. And part of Vandalia too.

[Abe Sargent]

Kentucky is a southern state as far as I'm concerned. Mason-Dixon baby.


Anything north of that and west of PA is great lakes region. Midwest is everything from mississippi river to the rockies, wet is everything from the great divide west.

whats so hard about this?

Mason Dixon line does not designate in the south, although I know a lot of Michigan people who seem to think ti does. Maryland is hardly in the south, as is DC. Parts of WV are north of the Mason Dixon line. Wheeling and Parkersburg are virtually identical cities but one is in the south and the other isn't, because two hundred years ago, someone drew a line on the map to separate Maryland from PA and resolve the Delaware issue?

[Abe Sargent]

Kentucky wasn't even a state that went to the South during the Civil War. (The CSA claimed it but never controlled it or had a formal succession).

[Tigercat]

Having lived in Kentucky for a few years after living elsewhere, I consider it part South, Part "Industrial Midwest" (Ohio, Penn, WV, ect). If I had a gun to my head and had to pick one of the two categories, I would say South, Just because I consider everything in the state South of Lexington, which is more than half the state, as "Southern."

[Abe Sargent]

If I were President for a day, and could do anything by fiat, one thing I would do is create a Vandalia state (or call it something else) out of the western couple of counties of Maryland, West Virginia, the Ohio counties along the Ohio river and a few in, eastern Kentucky, eastern Tennessee, the western peninsula of Virginia, and the western counties of North Carolina, along with central and western PA up to but not including the northern most few counties along the lake. Johnstown PA and Morehead KY share more in common than Morehead KY and Louisville KY, or Johnstown PA and Philadelphia PA. Hagerstown MD shares more in common with Parkersburg WV than it does with Aberdeen MD. Etc. Applachia should look out for Applachia. For too long, the eastern third of KY has been ignored by the west, and the same in VA, NC, and MD. TN and PA have the only two large cities in America where the entire metro area is in Applachia, so perhaps they would not want to join as much, because they get more dollars and investment, but Applachia is still poor because Ohio spends its money on Cleveland, Cincinnati, Columbus, Toledo, Dayton, etc, but not on Gallipolis or Ironton.

I mean, take a look at Meigs County, Ohio. It has a lot more in common with other Applachian counties than it does with most of Ohio. Ohio doesn't know how to handle or take care of Applachia, because most of it is solidly mid-west, with midwest concerns.

[Abe Sargent]

I like Kentucky. Anyway, all things here my opinion. Add salt and stir.

[TCY Junkie]

Southeast. If you want a credible source you should know where to look.

[Grammaticus]

Kentucky wasn't even a state that went to the South during the Civil War. (The CSA claimed it but never controlled it or had a formal succession).

I think you are both right and wrong here. Kentucky claimed neutrality. But the state had a provincial government out of Bowling Green that did join the CSA and seat representatives. I think both Kentucky and Missouri had delegates on both the Union and Confederate congress.

Also in the case of Kentucky and Maryland, I believe both contributed a much larger number of troops to the Confederate army.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Superior (proposed U.S. state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_(proposed_U.S._state))

Support U.P. secession (http://superiorland.blogspot.com/)

has a great poll. :D

[SFL Cat]

Born and raised in Kentucky. Southern state.

[Karlifornia]

Superior (proposed U.S. state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_(proposed_U.S._state))

I had absolutely no knowledge about the U.P. of Michigan besides that it existed. Just spent a half hour reading about it. I didn't even know how cold it was up there. Thank you, Wikipedia.

[ISiddiqui]

I think you are both right and wrong here. Kentucky claimed neutrality. But the state had a provincial government out of Bowling Green that did join the CSA and seat representatives. I think both Kentucky and Missouri had delegates on both the Union and Confederate congress.

Also in the case of Kentucky and Maryland, I believe both contributed a much larger number of troops to the Confederate army.

Hell, Maryland was about to vote for seccession, but Lincoln sent troops to the statehouse, realizing that having Washington D.C. surrounded by the CSA would be a VERY bad idea.

Also, shady things were going on in the border states by both sides.

[Sgran]

If someone blindfolded you and dropped you in the middle of Illinois, you would not know whether you were in Illinois, Iowa or (southern) Wisconsin, but you would not think for a second you were in Kentucky.

[cuervo72]

If someone blindfolded you and dropped you in the middle of Illinois, you would not know whether you were in Illinois, Iowa or (southern) Wisconsin, but you would not think for a second you were in Kentucky.

That would make for an interesting challenge. Drop people in random states, see if they can figure out where they are (attempting to hide license plates, of course).