Hey kobe, remember us? your teammates

[Ragone]

The nba is unwatchable anymore.. Kobe Bryant has 42 points.. AT HALFTIME.. i watched the highlights of the first half.. and it looked like he was ignoring open teammates and shooting.. sad really

[cmp]

Kobe 14-19
Rest Of Lakers 6-19

Kobe has half their shots. Shaq's only 2 for 8.

[bosshogg23]

You are supposed to ignore the NBA while March Madness is going on. Its a rule or something.

[KWhit]

I thought you were ALWAYS supposed to ignore the NBA.

[heybrad]

Originally posted by Ragone
The nba is unwatchable anymore.. Kobe Bryant has 42 points.. AT HALFTIME.. i watched the highlights of the first half.. and it looked like he was ignoring open teammates and shooting.. sad really
Do you even look at stats before saying something as stupid as this?

[EagleFan]

He said it's unwatchable and mentioned the highlights that he saw. Why does he have to look at stats before having an opinion?

[EagleFan]

Dola: For the record, Kobe had a great first half.

[heybrad]

Originally posted by EagleFan
Why does he have to look at stats before having an opinion?
Because something that seems to be lost on this board is that although everyone can have an opinion, it doesnt mean that some of them aren't idiotic.

[Havok]

The NBA is a joke now. I cant bring myself to watch a single game. Im happy being a Collage B-ball fan. At least they still know the concept of T E A M.

P.S. i guess im an Idoit to :(

[heybrad]

Kobe Bryant averages 5.9 assists per game which is tops in the league among shooting guards. I guess he understands the team concept as well.

[cmp]

I love watching the NBA as well as College Basketball. I don't understand why everyone here seems to hate the NBA.

[heybrad]

Whats the over/under on the amount of time it will take for TroyF to stop by this thread and tell us that the WNBA is the best basketball on the planet?

[Bishop]

Originally posted by heybrad
Kobe Bryant averages 5.9 assists per game which is tops in the league among shooting guards. I guess he understands the team concept as well.

Someone is obviously a laker fan

You'd have to be idiotic to be the only one who hasn't noticed how many shots he forces. he makes alot of them but he forces alot of them.

nobody said he can't play, but 5.9 assist doesn't make him a team player either if he only passes because he has absolutely no other choice.

[heybrad]

Yes I am a Laker fan. Yes I know that Kobe has a tendency to force shots at times. I also know, as a Laker fan who has watched 90% of their games since I was about 18, that a lot of times in the Laker offense, the team looks for Kobe to bail them out by handing him the ball with about 5 seconds on the shot clock and asking him to create something.

Something to consider. Tracy McGrady averages more shot attempts than Kobe and averages less assists. Are the same things said about McGrady? No. Double standard. Thats for you to decide.

[The_herd]

Originally posted by heybrad

Something to consider. Tracy McGrady averages more shot attempts than Kobe and averages less assists. Are the same things said about McGrady? No. Double standard. Thats for you to decide.

McGrady doesn't have another consistant scorer on his team, let alone the best center in basketball.

[heybrad]

Originally posted by The_herd
McGrady doesn't have another consistant scorer on his team, let alone the best center in basketball.
Very true, which is why the offense runs through Shaq. With double and triple teams he is constantly kicking it out.

Dont get me wrong. I know what you're talking about as far as Kobe although I think the media far overexagerates it. But the point of this thread was that Kobe scored 42 at the half and it was "pathetic." Is that what you're saying as well?

[Havok]

McGrady doesn't have another consistant scorer on his team, let alone the best center in basketball.

bingo

And i dont have a double standard... alot of players care more about there stats then they do there team.

Thats why im a Jason Kid fan.

Why do you think our last dream team got there asses handed to them 3 times??? Cause other country's play team ball. In the NBA its all about there Nike contracts. An average talented team that plays GREAT team ball can bet an exceptionaly talented team that plays for themselves.

ohhh how i miss Bill Russell and Larry Bird :)

P.S. i guess im an idoit again :(

[Havok]

ohhh just wanted to say... i think Kobe is a STUD. Im not trying to put just him down. Im puting most of the NBA down.

[The_herd]

I think saying the offense runs through Shaq, then mentioning Kobe scoring 42 in a half is kind of strange personally.

[The_herd]

DOLA

Not saying that is pathetic at all, just saying if I had Shaq on my team, I would do my best to make sure he score's more than 5 points in a half, no matter how well I was playing.

[heybrad]

Does the term "Hot Hand" mean anything to you guys?

[EagleFan]

Hot hand? Is that a reference to the kleenex quote?

[heybrad]

Originally posted by The_herd
DOLA

Not saying that is pathetic at all, just saying if I had Shaq on my team, I would do my best to make sure he score's more than 5 points in a half, no matter how well I was playing.
Even though Shaq shot 25% for the first half? Would you still have pounded the ball into him, while Kobe was hitting 6-7 three pointers?

[rexalllsc]

Originally posted by Bishop
Someone is obviously a laker fan

You'd have to be idiotic to be the only one who hasn't noticed how many shots he forces. he makes alot of them but he forces alot of them.

nobody said he can't play, but 5.9 assist doesn't make him a team player either if he only passes because he has absolutely no other choice.

LOL. Would you rather have Robert Horry shooting those 3's? He's shooting 27% this year.

You ride the hot hand. If Kobe is the hot hand, so be it. He shot 9 of 13 from 3 tonight.

Like another poster said, he's 1st in the league in assists by a SG.

Kobe is a great player...if you were the coach, would you really have him defer to Derek Fisher and Rick Fox? Shaq is getting his points...he's 3rd in the league in scoring. I bet you probably wanted Jordan to pass to Brad Sellers more, huh?

[rexalllsc]

Originally posted by The_herd
DOLA

Not saying that is pathetic at all, just saying if I had Shaq on my team, I would do my best to make sure he score's more than 5 points in a half, no matter how well I was playing.

Shaq is 3rd in the league in scoring, and had one shy of his average tonight. Shaw gets his touches.

[rexalllsc]

BTW, this isn't elementary school. Not everyone gets a set amount of minutes. You go with what's going to help you win. That means you go with the best players. Kobe and Shaq. The 2nd and 3rd leading scorers in the league.

[MrBug708]

C'mon guys, this board is about as fond of the Lakers as the French are bath's. Were you surprised? Mother Teresea could have been a Laker fan herself and took it to the hoop and she'd be called a heathen


Nevermind the fact that it was MJ's last game here. Kobe paid him tribute tonight quite nicely

[Alf]

I am a Laker fan, I am French and prefer showers over bath :D

[Ragone]

My reaction was based on kobe having 42 points.. and ZERO assists at halftime.. Granted most of the lakers are basically scrubs that nobody should pass to(see: Samaki Walker, etc)
Maybe my irritation is based more on the way sportscenter shows highlights.. i mean was it REALLY required to show every single shot kobe took in the first half?

Hell they didn't even give any stats for any other laker at half time.. and maybe thats wrong too

[MylesKnight]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet, save MrBug's slight mention... Anyone find it a bit coincidental that Kobe did this against the Wizards, in what will more than likely be MJ's last matchup with the Lakers?

Now I didn't see the game or any of the highlights, but just by looking at that one number (42 Points at Halftime), it seems as if Kobe was looking to show MJ up a bit..

Now Kobe is a darn good ballplayer, I'll give him that, but he seems to make some very shall I say questionable decisions at times.

[rexalllsc]

Originally posted by MylesKnight
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet, save MrBug's slight mention... Anyone find it a bit coincidental that Kobe did this against the Wizards, in what will more than likely be MJ's last matchup with the Lakers?

Now I didn't see the game or any of the highlights, but just by looking at that one number (42 Points at Halftime), it seems as if Kobe was looking to show MJ up a bit..

Now Kobe is a darn good ballplayer, I'll give him that, but he seems to make some very shall I say questionable decisions at times.

He shot over 50% from the field, and 69% from 3.

Pass more Kobe! Let Derek Fisher shoot those 3s!

[rexalllsc]

Originally posted by Ragone
My reaction was based on kobe having 42 points.. and ZERO assists at halftime.. Granted most of the lakers are basically scrubs that nobody should pass to(see: Samaki Walker, etc)
Maybe my irritation is based more on the way sportscenter shows highlights.. i mean was it REALLY required to show every single shot kobe took in the first half?

Hell they didn't even give any stats for any other laker at half time.. and maybe thats wrong too

Don't hate the player - Hate the game

[rexalllsc]

Originally posted by Ragone
My reaction was based on kobe having 42 points.. and ZERO assists at halftime..

Who cares? 42 points...he barely missed a shot in the first half. Hot hand...keep shooting...or should he dish to Madsen?

[MrBug708]

20 points and 8 assists or 42 points at halftime? What difference does it make? Isn't it a team game? Where the team goes on when they lose, not the player?

[MylesKnight]

20 points and 8 assists or 42 points at halftime?


I'll tell you what, if you took a straw poll of his Laker Teammates, it'd be a safe bet to say they would prefer the 20 & 8..

Doubtful we'll ever see Kobe win any Teammate of the Year Awards during his career in the League, that's for sure.

By the way, how would Kobe fare if he and T-Mac traded teams? I'm not so sure Bryant would have the Magic anywhere near the .500 mark.

We already got ourselves a nice glimpse of the Lakers minus Shaq earlier this season.. and it wasn't pretty.

[Chuck]

So let me get this straigh, Kobe scores 55 and he's selfish and the NBA is unwatchable. MJ scores 55 and he's the greatest basketball player and the NBA is the greatest sport on earth.

What did MJ win at 24? I'm not saying MJ wasn't great, but where does the Kobe bashing come from?

[Bishop]

Originally posted by Chuck
So let me get this straigh, Kobe scores 55 and he's selfish and the NBA is unwatchable. MJ scores 55 and he's the greatest basketball player and the NBA is the greatest sport on earth.

What did MJ win at 24? I'm not saying MJ wasn't great, but where does the Kobe bashing come from?

Difference was that MJ's team was in first place, and always was as long as he was playing.

Kobe's team isn't in first place, and probably wouldnt be in the playoffs if Shaq hadn't came back, and they would of lost lastnight without Shaq too.

Take a look at the spurs game, where he shot 11 for 30 with no assist, and they lost...

Difference between MJ and Kobe is MJ could of been the only starter on the court for his team, and still win, Kobe hasn't ever done anything for his TEAM without Shaq...

He's played great without him, but they've never been dominant TEAM without Shaq. lets say that again, TEAM.

MJ had magic, Kobe has talent.

[Aylmar]

Originally posted by Havok
Thats why im a Jason Kid fan.

Why do you think our last dream team got there asses handed to them 3 times??? Cause other country's play team ball. In the NBA its all about there Nike contracts. An average talented team that plays GREAT team ball can bet an exceptionaly talented team that plays for themselves.

So are the Nets an average team that plays great team ball? Too bad they couldn't beat the selfish Lakers last year, eh?

I think our last dream team got their asses handed to them because they weren't really a dream team. No Shaq, no Kobe, no Iverson....need I say more?

[HornedFrog Purple]

Heh and you expected a George Karl coached US squad to play like a team? He is garbage riding on coattails.

[heybrad]

Ask Rick Fox, Samaki Walker, Derek Fisher, or Robert Horry whose fault it was that the Lakers started slow without Shaq. They have all said publicly that the played those games with the attitude of, "wait until Shaq gets back." Anybody who actually watched those games could see that Kobe was the only player who brought his game every night.

[rexalllsc]

Originally posted by MylesKnight
20 points and 8 assists or 42 points at halftime?


I'll tell you what, if you took a straw poll of his Laker Teammates, it'd be a safe bet to say they would prefer the 20 & 8..

Doubtful we'll ever see Kobe win any Teammate of the Year Awards during his career in the League, that's for sure.

By the way, how would Kobe fare if he and T-Mac traded teams? I'm not so sure Bryant would have the Magic anywhere near the .500 mark.

We already got ourselves a nice glimpse of the Lakers minus Shaq earlier this season.. and it wasn't pretty.

So basically what this comes down to is you're from Florida, so you prefer McGrady.

That's fine...they're both great players...no reason to try and diminish Kobe's game, though.

[rexalllsc]

Originally posted by Bishop


Difference between MJ and Kobe is MJ could of been the only starter on the court for his team, and still win, Kobe hasn't ever done anything for his TEAM without Shaq...

Keep in mind that Kobe is 24 years old.

BTW, this whole myth about Jordan could've won as the only player...puhlease. He had a very good Scottie Pippen out there as well...

No one can win it by themselves.

[kid_dynamite]

BTW, this whole myth about Jordan could've won as the only player...puhlease. He had a very good Scottie Pippen out there as well...

No one can win it by themselves.

yea jordan also had a luc longly :rolleyes:

the team that jordan had surrounding him was no where even close the the talent that kobe has around him. kobe is a good player but in comparison to jordan, he is no jordan.

i do agree that no one player can do it by themselves though.

[The_herd]

Where are all these pro Kobe people when he's shooting 13-34 or 11-30 while Shaq is getting less than 20 shot's in these games?

Any player can recognize when he's hot, it takes a great player to recognize that he's cold, and that its time to get some others involved. Kobe is too interested in himself to realize that when he keeps forcing up shots he's only hurting the team.

Why do laker players stand around and let Kobe create something with 5 or so seconds on the shot clock? BECAUSE THEY KNOW THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL HE'S GONNA PASS THE BALL.

[MrBug708]

Originally posted by The_herd
Where are all these pro Kobe people when he's shooting 13-34 or 11-30 while Shaq is getting less than 20 shot's in these games?



A pro-Kobe poster didn't bring up this thread though, so what difference does it make? Your brining up something that has no relevance to the thread


Like I've said, 20 points and 8 assists or 40 points, who cares how they score. Rick Fox? The guy isn't that good anymore. Robert Horry? Ya, the guy is looking to pad his stats. Derrick Fisher? How many chances can this guy get. Mdvedenko? You wanna talk about Selfish? The guy has still yet to pass. George just got his paycheck. Walker? Phssst, the guy is losing minutes to Mark Madsen!

Personally, these guys are all riding Kobe's shirt tails. They want their chance, but when they get it, they don't do that much with it.

You want a cold Kobe to defer, but I'll ask again, defer to who!??

A cold Kobe has done more for the Lakers then anyone else but Shaq. You put McGrady on the Lakers and what do you have? He had Vince Carter on his team before and they didnt do much. So, a proven All-Star with McGrady hasnt done that much either and you think McGrady would have the Lakers on a different level? Your crazy

[MylesKnight]

Originally posted by MrBug708

So, a proven All-Star with McGrady hasnt done that much either and you think McGrady would have the Lakers on a different level? Your crazy


Uh Bro, I think you ought to go check out some of the old footage and stats from T-Mac's last season in Toronto. He didn't really "Blow Up" until he arrived in Orlando.

And by the way, you never did answer this question..

"Where are all these pro Kobe people when he's shooting 13-34 or 11-30 while Shaq is getting less than 20 shot's in these games? "

Why is Shaq not getting the shots?


And Brad, what's up with these comments?

"Ask Rick Fox, Samaki Walker, Derek Fisher, or Robert Horry whose fault it was that the Lakers started slow without Shaq. They have all said publicly that the played those games with the attitude of, "wait until Shaq gets back." Anybody who actually watched those games could see that Kobe was the only player who brought his game every night."

Are those the World Champion Lakers or the Sacramento Queens? Sound like a bunch of excuse makers to me, my friend.

You play with what you've got, and what LA showed us is that without Shaq, they had a very good shot at LeBron James.. and that is a much more talented overall team minus Shaq & Kobe than the Magic are minus T-Mac.

[MrBug708]

And by the way, you never did answer this question..

[i]"Where are all these pro Kobe people when he's shooting 13-34 or 11-30 while Shaq is getting less than 20 shot's in these games? "

Are those the World Champion Lakers or the Sacramento Queens? Sound like a bunch of excuse makers to me, my friend.

You play with what you've got, and what LA showed us is that without Shaq, they had a very good shot at LeBron James.. and that is a much more talented overall team minus Shaq & Kobe than the Magic are minus T-Mac. [/B]


I guess you didn't read my last post. It was an Anti-Kobe fan bringing up the whole 42 points in a half. Why would we bring up a 11-30 shooting night for anyone? Kobe, McGrady, Garnett, or whoever else

For your second line, it was a bunch of excuses. They were acknowledging that their play was lackluster. Have you been following the thread?

What is their overall record for not having Shaq, with scoring percentages, and such? I'm sure one of the stat heads here can provide it. And Lakers dont have much else other then Shaq and Kobe. A Kobe led team could beat a Shaq lead team with the exact same players

[rexalllsc]

Bug - Who cares. Myles has an inferiority complex w/ McGrady...you'll never change his mind

[MylesKnight]

Please Rex.. McGrady, as well as Garnett and Duncan to name a couple of others, are right on par with Kobe Bryant.

Now Kobe Bryant is a great, great ballplayer, BUT the only reason Kobe gets so much love from the media is because he has a completely dominating player there with him (Shaq) that has enabled that ballclub to win a few NBA Titles.

I just don't think Kobe Bryant has that ability to make his teammates better that some of the other past & current superstars had/have. Now can he do it by himself if need be? Yeah sure to a point, but again I think we all saw just how far that was earlier this season (see: Many Lottery Balls for LAL).

Bottom line is you just can't do it all by yourself in the NBA and expect to even come close to challenging for a title.. I think we all know that.

And the other bottom line, as you should be able to see, I am a Laker Hater! :D How can you be a fan of a team that all of those Hollywood Anti-American Idiots love anyway?

Let's just hope the "Queens" or someone else out there in the West can finally beat LA this time around.

[Ragone]

For the record, i am not anti kobe persay.. i'm anti anyone who thinks of themselves above the team, as kobe obviously did last night.. I guarentee he was thinking "hmm, My last game against jordan.. i wanna light him up"

Take lebron for example.. i watched some of his games, hell he passed quite a bit, to players Way inferior to himself.. I prefer team play to individual hot dogging anyday(not saying last night's outburst was hot dogging.. just a general statement)

[rexalllsc]

Originally posted by Ragone
For the record, i am not anti kobe persay.. i'm anti anyone who thinks of themselves above the team, as kobe obviously did last night.. I guarentee he was thinking "hmm, My last game against jordan.. i wanna light him up"

Take lebron for example.. i watched some of his games, hell he passed quite a bit, to players Way inferior to himself.. I prefer team play to individual hot dogging anyday(not saying last night's outburst was hot dogging.. just a general statement)

Again, he was hitting nearly every shot he took. If a player like Kobe is on fire, then he SHOULD shoot.

Are you forgetting that Kobe has FIVE triple-doubles this year? ELEVEN games with 10+ assists? Only 14 games with LESS than 4 assists (he's played in 72 games).

He's 13th in the league in assists...#1 for SG's....yet he's a ballhog?

Wake up.

[rexalllsc]

Originally posted by MylesKnight
Please Rex.. McGrady, as well as Garnett and Duncan to name a couple of others, are right on par with Kobe Bryant.

Now Kobe Bryant is a great, great ballplayer, BUT the only reason Kobe gets so much love from the media is because he has a completely dominating player there with him (Shaq) that has enabled that ballclub to win a few NBA Titles.

I just don't think Kobe Bryant has that ability to make his teammates better that some of the other past & current superstars had/have. Now can he do it by himself if need be? Yeah sure to a point, but again I think we all saw just how far that was earlier this season (see: Many Lottery Balls for LAL).

Bottom line is you just can't do it all by yourself in the NBA and expect to even come close to challenging for a title.. I think we all know that.

And the other bottom line, as you should be able to see, I am a Laker Hater! :D How can you be a fan of a team that all of those Hollywood Anti-American Idiots love anyway?

Let's just hope the "Queens" or someone else out there in the West can finally beat LA this time around.

Again, he was hitting nearly every shot he took. If a player like Kobe is on fire, then he SHOULD shoot.

Are you forgetting that Kobe has FIVE triple-doubles this year? ELEVEN games with 10+ assists? Only 14 games with LESS than 4 assists (he's played in 72 games).

He's 13th in the league in assists...#1 for SG's....yet he's a ballhog?

Wake up.

Like you say, you just hate the Lakers. I would too if my team had never won anything.

[rexalllsc]

By the way, McGrady only has 6 games w/ 10+ assists compared to Kobe's 11 games w/ 10+ assists.

[damnMikeBrown]

I'd like to applaud rexalllsc for his own triple-dola

[MylesKnight]

Rex, you're forgetting the biggest stat of all my friend.. that being, the Mighty Lakers record minus Shaq.

I think it would be a safe assumption to say that record pales in comparison to the Magic's and the T-Wolves overall records, teams with only 1 "Superstar".

By the way, I used to have no problem with LA.. That is until Shaq decided to sell out and go live with all of those Hollywood SOB's.

[rexalllsc]

Originally posted by MylesKnight
Rex, you're forgetting the biggest stat of all my friend.. that being, the Mighty Lakers record minus Shaq.

I think it would be a safe assumption to say that record pales in comparison to the Magic's and the T-Wolves overall records, teams with only 1 "Superstar".

By the way, I used to have no problem with LA.. That is until Shaq decided to sell out and go live with all of those Hollywood SOB's.

Not very good...take away Orlando's most dominant player and see how they do. Take away any teams most dominant player.

First you say Kobe doesn't make the guys around him better. Obviously he does. He draws double and triple teams, leaving his teammates wide open. He has ELEVEN double-digit assist games.

[heybrad]

Originally posted by MylesKnight
And by the way, you never did answer this question..

1. "Where are all these pro Kobe people when he's shooting 13-34 or 11-30 while Shaq is getting less than 20 shot's in these games? "

2. Why is Shaq not getting the shots?


And Brad, what's up with these comments?

"Ask Rick Fox, Samaki Walker, Derek Fisher, or Robert Horry whose fault it was that the Lakers started slow without Shaq. They have all said publicly that the played those games with the attitude of, "wait until Shaq gets back." Anybody who actually watched those games could see that Kobe was the only player who brought his game every night."

3. Are those the World Champion Lakers or the Sacramento Queens? Sound like a bunch of excuse makers to me, my friend.

4. You play with what you've got, and what LA showed us is that without Shaq, they had a very good shot at LeBron James.. and that is a much more talented overall team minus Shaq & Kobe than the Magic are minus T-Mac.

Let me try and take these one at a time.

1. Kobe shoots 45% on the year. The 13-34's and 11-30's are few and far between or are you suggesting that he shoots 30% most of the time and has an occasional 90% game?

2. I thought I had covered why Shaq doesnt take as many shots this year, but I'll be happy to go into detail. Shaq has made numerous comments that he wants to see Kobe win the MVP. He stated at the beginning of the year they were switching the 1-2 punch with Kobe taking the lead. Personally, I think this was done for 2 main reasons. 1. Because Shaq has become lazy this year (and yes, thats coming from a Laker fan), coming in out of shape. 2. Zone defense rules allow 2 players to drape themselves on Shaq before he even has the ball.

3. They are the 3 time defending champs. Not bad, huh? Are you asking if Laker fans are frustrated with team this year? Absolutely. The feeling is that Rick Fox has fallen apart this year. Devean Georges effort went the window when he got his new contract. Samaki Walker has decided he's happy with one ring. Derek Fisher has decided he is a superstar. Robert Horry is having his typical season; nothing in the regular season, save it for the playoffs.

4. Everyone likes to refer to the Lakers record without Shaq. Since Shaq and Kobe joined the Lakers their record when Shaq does not play is 49-43. Not great, but not lotto bound either. Take away this years 11-19 for the reasons I've mentioned before (since you're blaming Kobe) and you're left with 38-24. Much better huh?

[MylesKnight]

Rex, your missing my point.

L.A. was playing with only 1 "Superstar", just as teams like Orlando and Minnesota do on a regular basis, and everyone saw how they performed. For whatever reason, the Kobe led and Shaq-less Lakers couldn't even come close to getting it done and weren't even in the same ballpark as the Wolves or Magic when it comes to the most important stat, Wins & Losses.

Just as Kobe's eleven, 10+ Assists games this season are, this is a fact my friend.


And Brad, you've made some good counter-points. Keep in mind though I'm only speaking of this season and this season only. How the Lakers did in '99-'00 without Shaq in the lineup doesn't really matter in '02-'03 does it?

In the end, the Lakers reign is coming to an end soon, whether that be this season or next the bottom line is the throne is soon to change hands and it's doubtful L.A. will get back to that level anytime soon there after. ;)

[rexalllsc]

Originally posted by MylesKnight
Rex, your missing my point.

L.A. was playing with only 1 "Superstar", just as teams like Orlando and Minnesota do on a regular basis, and everyone saw how they performed. For whatever reason, the Kobe led and Shaq-less Lakers couldn't even come close to getting it done and weren't even in the same ballpark as the Wolves or Magic when it comes to the most important stat, Wins & Losses.

Just as Kobe's eleven, 10+ Assists games this season are, this is a fact my friend.


They're used to playing with Shaq as a focal point of the offense. He's not in there, and it's tough to adjust.

Sorry, but Kobe > McGrady

[The_herd]

Ok, mentioning the 13-34's and the 11-30's were to show that Kobe won't even defer to Shaq when he struggles. He has no clue what a team concept is. The reason I brought up these two games was Shaq got 16 and 18 shots resectively in them. I don't care how many assists he average's, he doesn't even attempt to get anyone else on the team involved offensively.

Take away Orlando's most dominant player? Uhhh, then you have a bunch of guys who couldn't win a CBA title. Hell, at least Minnesota would have Wally to take a few shot's (wouldn't he be in heaven).

And actually I'm not all that anti-kobe, I believe he is THE most talented player in basketball right now. He just has no idea how to play team basketball. I get sick of Kobe fans ignoring the fact that he has no idea how to play basketball, he just goes out on the floor to get some stats.

Talent wise: Kobe > McGrady
As a basketball player: McGrady > Kobe

[Daimyo]

I'd say pretty suredly that Orlando without McGrady would be a much better team than the Lakers without Shaq and Kobe.

How can you possibly criticize Kobe for the Lakers play without Shaq?? You can't possibly compare the Lakers without Shaq to any other team at full strength. For one, I'm sure the Lakers game plan is relies pretty heavily on Shaq... so not only do you lose his presence when he's out, but nearly all your offensive plays become pretty worthless. If the Lakers knew they wouldn't have Shaq I'm sure they would have different game plans (not to mention the $20M extra cap space they'd have to get better players). Secondly, the Lakers without Shaq not only lose his talent and presence, but they also effectively lose $20M against their cap because Shaq still takes away resources even when he can't play.

So yeah, of course the Lakers rely heavily on Shaq the way the team is built now. But if you take him away permanently and give them back the cap space I'm sure that 1) the team assmebled and game plans would be a lot different than it is now and 2) that Kobe led team would still be one of the best in the league. Why can't people just accept that Kobe and McGrady are both exceptional players, and given the right supporting cast are very capable of carrying their teams to great heights.

DISCLAIMER: I don't like the NBA and I despise the Lakers. But I do recognize that Kobe Bryant is the most impressive player I have ever seen in my lifetime. (pretty big considering I live in Chicago, idolized Jordan as a child, and loved the Bulls second only to the Pacers right up until about ~1997).

[rexalllsc]

Originally posted by The_herd
As a basketball player: McGrady > Kobe

LOL. Kobe is ahead oh him in assists and boards, yet McGrady is the better all-around player. lol.

So the 'McGrady is a ballhog, but it's ok because his team sucks' argument is ok for McGrady, but not Kobe.

Sorry, but Kobe and Shaq are 1a and 1b. No one else on the team is ever a first option...and whattya know. Kobe and Shaq are #2 and #3 in scoring in the NBA. Looks to me like the right people have the ball.

Best players shoot. Other guys set picks.

[MrBug708]

Orlando is doing something right obviously because they arent that bad, yet everyone says they Tracy and Scrubs. Ok, then how does Orlando have any wins? Tracy must not be passing the ball either

[rexalllsc]

Originally posted by Daimyo
I'd say pretty suredly that Orlando without McGrady would be a much better team than the Lakers without Shaq and Kobe.

How can you possibly criticize Kobe for the Lakers play without Shaq?? You can't possibly compare the Lakers without Shaq to any other team at full strength. For one, I'm sure the Lakers game plan is relies pretty heavily on Shaq... so not only do you lose his presence when he's out, but nearly all your offensive plays become pretty worthless. If the Lakers knew they wouldn't have Shaq I'm sure they would have different game plans (not to mention the $20M extra cap space they'd have to get better players). Secondly, the Lakers without Shaq not only lose his talent and presence, but they also effectively lose $20M against their cap because Shaq still takes away resources even when he can't play.

Pretty much spot on. The Lakers payroll w/o Shaq is about $31 million a year (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/nba/stories/2001-02-salaries-was.htm#pay), seeing as he makes $21mil/year.

Face it...after Shaq and Kobe, the Lakers are downright paltry. Fox shows up every 10th game, and Horry is getting OLD.

[The_herd]

Of course the Lakers would be worse than Orlando without McGrady. Your taking the Lakers 2 best players away.

The criticizing of Kobe for the Lakers play without Shaq is because a player with Kobe's talent should be able to have the team at .500 or a little better. However, without Shaq this year Kobe didn't carry the team anywhere. McGrady doesn't have an 8 foot 500lb. monster on his team, he has Andrew DeClerq and Shawn Kemp (who might be 500lbs, but thats another story), yet the Magic continue to play decent basketball and will be in the playoffs again this year. Which is more than you could say about the Lakers if they had to play a full season without Shaq.

[MrBug708]

Man, I dont even know why I'm in this thread. Lakers will be hated like the Yankees are hated, like the Cowboys used to be hated.

BB ranks far behind the other major sports IMO

[MrBug708]

Hurd, even when Shaq came back, the Lakers were 9-9 with him in the lineup

[Daimyo]

I think its fair comparsion. I believe someone in this thread has said the following:

If (Orlando > Lakers - Shaq), then McGrady > Kobe

I refute this by saying this is false. My reasoning is that if you subtract McGrady and Kobe from that equation what is left on Orlando is significantly greater than what is left on the Lakers. Therefore, you can not say just because Orlando > LA - Shaq, McGrady is necessarily better than Kobe.

[vtbub]

I think the NBA is pretty unwatchable, but not because of Kobe. The NBA has become a lazy game of glorified one on one with eight other spectators on the court. Eastern conference teams like Philly and Boston have a star that shoots under 45% while having up to 1/3rd of the teams total shots, if not more. When the NBA looks more like the way it was played in the '80's, then I'll watch again.

[tucker342]

Shaq actually hasn't played much this year. If it wasn't for Kobe the Lakers wouldn't even be close to the playoffs.

[Neuqua]

Originally posted by tucker342
Shaq actually hasn't played much this year. If it wasn't for Kobe the Lakers wouldn't even be close to the playoffs.

It's not like Shaq was gone half the year, he missed 15 games. He's averaging 37.9 mpg. I don't know where that came from.

Neuqua

[ISiddiqui]

MJ could of been the only starter on the court for his team, and still win

Because in the late 80s, the Bulls won all those finals? Oh wait, I forgot. It was only when the Bulls had Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant (or Dennis Rodman) when Jordan won anything.

[The_herd]

The Bulls had Pippen and Grant in the late 80s also.

[The_herd]

Originally posted by rexalllsc
LOL. Kobe is ahead oh him in assists and boards, yet McGrady is the better all-around player. lol.


This goes right in with my Kobe only goes out to fill up the stat sheet arguement. I said nothing about McGrady being a better all-around player, I said he is a better basketball player.


The players on Orlando go out and play hard every night. The Lakers have Kobe, Shaq, and 3 other guys who set picks, just like you said. So who makes the players around him play not only better, but harder. A good sign of being a leader, which Kobe isn't.

And being a basketball player isn't about scoring points, getting rebounds, and piling up some cheap assists by throwing it down to Shaq. Its about understanding the game, what it takes to win, and make the players around you better, in that category Kobe doesn't have a clue.

[rexalllsc]

Originally posted by The_herd
This goes right in with my Kobe only goes out to fill up the stat sheet arguement. I said nothing about McGrady being a better all-around player, I said he is a better basketball player.


The players on Orlando go out and play hard every night. The Lakers have Kobe, Shaq, and 3 other guys who set picks, just like you said. So who makes the players around him play not only better, but harder. A good sign of being a leader, which Kobe isn't.

And being a basketball player isn't about scoring points, getting rebounds, and piling up some cheap assists by throwing it down to Shaq. Its about understanding the game, what it takes to win, and make the players around you better, in that category Kobe doesn't have a clue.

LOL. You're really spinning now. Don't get dizzy...

[Chuck]

Originally posted by Bishop
Difference was that MJ's team was in first place, and always was as long as he was playing.

Kobe's team isn't in first place, and probably wouldnt be in the playoffs if Shaq hadn't came back, and they would of lost lastnight without Shaq too.

Take a look at the spurs game, where he shot 11 for 30 with no assist, and they lost...

Difference between MJ and Kobe is MJ could of been the only starter on the court for his team, and still win, Kobe hasn't ever done anything for his TEAM without Shaq...

He's played great without him, but they've never been dominant TEAM without Shaq. lets say that again, TEAM.

MJ had magic, Kobe has talent.

I don't recall MJ ever winning a championship without Scottie. I seem to remember MJ not being on first place teams from 1984 thru 1990. MJ was a great player with tremendous drive. His stats speak for themselves. He didn't win by himself. Is Scottie as good as Shaq, doubtful. But Chicage was not a team of scrubs. It was a team built to maximize the talents of MJ and Scottie. MJ does make his teammates better, but that did not happen until later. By the way, both Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman are better third players than any third player on LA. Also, I seem to remember that Chicage still made it to the playoffs without MJ. Again, he didn't do it alone!

[Easy Mac]

Originally posted by The_herd
This goes right in with my Kobe only goes out to fill up the stat sheet arguement. I said nothing about McGrady being a better all-around player, I said he is a better basketball player.


The players on Orlando go out and play hard every night. The Lakers have Kobe, Shaq, and 3 other guys who set picks, just like you said. So who makes the players around him play not only better, but harder. A good sign of being a leader, which Kobe isn't.

And being a basketball player isn't about scoring points, getting rebounds, and piling up some cheap assists by throwing it down to Shaq. Its about understanding the game, what it takes to win, and make the players around you better, in that category Kobe doesn't have a clue.

Well obviously, winning 3 championships means Kobe has no idea how to win:rolleyes:

The way I see it, the Lkers players don't play hard b/c they know they have Shaq and Kobe, the two best players in the league. The Orlando players play hard because they know they only have McGrady. McGrady doesn't MAKE them play hard, they play hard because there is no other guy to pick up the slack. Kobe doesn't have to worry about that.

Being a basketball player isn't about scoring points? Damn, I must have misread the rules of the game, because I thought you had to score to win?

[The_herd]

Ben Wallace made the all-star team because of his nifty offensive abilities then?

[Easy Mac]

So by your definition Dennis Rodman was a team player?

[Ragone]

And Bill Laimbeer was the Shaq of the 80's!

[Chuck]

However, the 1993-94 Bulls proved there was life without Michael Jordan. Although Chicago didn't win its fourth straight championship, it posted a 55-27 record (for second place behind the Atlanta Hawks in the Central Division) and advanced to the Eastern Conference Semifinals.

[Chuck]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
So by your definition Dennis Rodman was a team player?

A great defensive player, who night after night rebounded the ball? Could pass? Yea he wasn't to bad as a team player. Attitude? Horible.

[The_herd]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
So by your definition Dennis Rodman was a team player?

Yes, that is EXACTLY what I said, somewhere up there I defined Dennis Rodman as team player.

[Ragone]

Dennis Rodman Prided himself on his rebounding ability.. I think he developed a edge to make other nba players fear him, thus giving him a further edge on the boards(aka, what will he do next?)

[Chuck]

Hey, Rodman has won a Championship without MJ!

[Chuck]

All this posting has made me tired. I think I'll slip back into the darkness!

[MrBug708]

But he had Isaiah

[MrBug708]

Dola


Did Jordan lead his team to the playoffs last year? Kobe is on up on him there!

[The_herd]

Yeah, but did Isaiah ever score 42 in a half?

[MrBug708]

Did he ever score 42 in a game......lol

[Chuck]

Tracy McGrady 29.06 FGA/48 minutes
Kobe 27.53 FGA/48 minutes

Kobe needs to shoot more!

[MrBug708]

Well, Kobe passed to Shaq more and didn't score as much and the Lakers got punked by the Sonics