F-GM

[M GO BLUE!!!]

:rant:

Every car I ever owned was a GM brand. My mother has for the past couple years been contracted to GM. My sister's husband is a designer at GM.

Today is my mother's last day. She's being replaced by someone being brought in from India.

My sister's husband got confirmation that his department is being moved to Mexico.

How is it a company can bitch & moan that they need bailout money, and the solution to their troubles is to use the money to put Americans out of work? It's not just this, but what was the 1st thing GM announced they were doing with their bailout money? Sending $1bn to GM Brazil. Then next was to announce the closing of several more US plants.

Going back decades, GM has made bad move after bad move.

Is there a worse run company than GM?

I'm switching to Ford or Chrysler when I buy another car. As long as it's built here in the USA.

[gstelmack]

Better off switching to a Honda or a Toyota that's built here in the USA...

[JonInMiddleGA]

How is it a company can bitch & moan that they need bailout money, and the solution to their troubles is to use the money to put Americans out of work?

I'm going to assume that this is a rhetorical question.

Sorry to hear about the job losses though.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Better off switching to a Honda or a Toyota that's built here in the USA...

...for now. I will NEVER purchase a foreign car.

[sabotai]

...for now. I will NEVER purchase a foreign car.

Is there really much a difference anymore? Some parts are built in Asia, some in Mexico, some in the US, etc.. Some cars are assembled in Asia, some in Mexico, some in the US, etc.

Is it possible to tell how "foreign" any given car is anymore?

EDIT: And sorry about the job losses. Don't mean to sound insensitive if I do.

[ISiddiqui]

How is it a company can bitch & moan that they need bailout money, and the solution to their troubles is to use the money to put Americans out of work?

Wouldn't saving money be a solution to their troubles?

[Kodos]

I will never purchase an American car until it is on equal footing quality-wise with the foreign cars. Of all the American cars, I'd be most likely to consider a Ford. And it is safe to assume I will never buy a GM car.

In a job I had in the 90s, I had to read in graphic detail the accident reports from their trucks that had the gas tank located outside the frame of the truck. They decided it was cheaper to let people continue to die in flaming wrecks and sue GM than to do a redesign that would fix the problem.

[JediKooter]

I'm with Kodos. Raise that quality first, before you win me over as a consumer again.

I never owned a foriegn car. However, I am completely fed up with the crap that GM and Ford has put out for the last couple of decades. My next new or used car purchase will not be a GM or Ford product.

[Logan]

I'm here to say sorry about the circumstances...

...and this thread will not end well.

[sterlingice]

Sorry to hear about it, MGB :(

Wouldn't saving money be a solution to their troubles?

Yeah- isn't this the double edged publicity sword? Either try to save cash, improve quality, and move some jobs overseas or lose the whole franchise and run a whole lot of people out of business, thus lowering competition, and lowering the quality competition needs to provide.

Frankly, the foreign cars from the last 5 years are nothing on what they made in the late 90s but they're still skating on reputation built then and sentiment towards American cars.

SI

[Crapshoot]

Absolutely - we only steal jobs from Americans! Line up the pitchforks! Who gives a flying fuck about economics?

I'm sorry about your Mom, but the idea that anything is purely national today is laughable. GM needs to cut costs to survive.

[Warhammer]

Try telling the guys at Nissan in Smyrna, TN or Canton, MS that they are making foreign cars/trucks.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Why doesn't GM just go all the way... telling the government that they need another $50bn to stay afloat and complete their movement of corporate offices to the Cayman Islands, and all operations to Malaysia?

[SportsDino]

It would be so nice to have a few billion dollars right now and a few auto plants/suppliers to work with. Pick up some out of work white collars/engineers to fill out the ranks, selectively bribe some elite ones to leave... tell em to design the car of the future while you revamp the plants.

We need the next Model T already. Revolutionize the auto industry, rather than the evolutionary changes coming from foreign autos, and the devolutionary stagnation coming out of US management. At the very least we need to start getting on the same playing field as foreign autos, but we'll probably need something brand new to get back to a leadership position. Either technology or business model wise. Cost cutting through Brazil is not going to do that... its just going to keep the company in its decline and make it less likely that we will care when it comes crying to us and we just chop it to pieces. (I'm having a Rorschach-like moment here, forgive me!)

[spleen1015]

Even though I don't like it, it makes sense for GM to move shit to other countries when they can pay their workers $10 an hour instead of $28 just for putting valve springs in an engine.

[Marc Vaughan]

I personally love my Chrysler Aspen - first car I've ever owned though so that might have something to do with it ...

[JediKooter]

I've always liked the American muscle cars. Right now, the only one I would even think of getting, just because I like the way it looks, is the new Dodge Challenger.

[Mr. Sparkle]

I've always liked the American muscle cars. Right now, the only one I would even think of getting, just because I like the way it looks, is the new Dodge Challenger.

Word.

[CU Tiger]

As far as the whole American foreign debate and where the cars are built. the workers on the assembly line are only a small part of that equation. When you buy an American car that money goes to the owners of that car, an American company that pays American taxes and American dividends. Buy a Toyota or Nissan and sure you employ some dude in Tenn or Alabama, but the true profit hits the Nikei not Wall Street and the Japanese gov't gets the tax dollars.

As far as quality goes, I challenge anyone here to go drive an 08 or 09 Taurus and a Camry and Accord the same day. We recently bought 3 cars (our first not truck or SUV in our company fleet) and I was trying to decide between Camry and Accord, I mentioned it while picking up one a new field Truck at the Ford dealer and was challenged the same. Needless to say we have 3 Tauruses now and I was amazed. To me Ford cars were crap...but this is a very tight well put together, extremely comfortable and powerful vehicle. Just drive one and if you still think its garbage, our tastes just differ. And Ford has out performed Toyota and Honda in 1st year and 1st 3 year reliability for 5 years now.

And finally the 800 ton elephant in the room. Get rid of the damn unions and we could keep the jobs in America. We have all heard the stories...but it is perfectly clear to me, while unions had a place at one time in this country and probably still do, say in present day China, they are un-needed and a burden to productivity and profitability today.

[Raiders Army]

I thought this thread was about a new game called Football GM.

[sterlingice]

Even though I don't like it, it makes sense for GM to move shit to other countries when they can pay their workers $10 an hour instead of $28 just for putting valve springs in an engine.

I'm sure those workers in the US make $28 an hour to just put valve springs in an engine (and if they do, it's a complex job- I have no idea).

And I'm certain that if they move it to Brazil, it will be a lot less than $10 an hour. Otherwise, you could easily set up shop in a midwest college town where you get a lot of educated workers in your simple job for low wages like that.

So, again, let me get this straight about American car companies and the economy in general

1) Their cars cost too much but you want better quality, which would in turn cost more money?
2) We want a high standard of living with well paying jobs but are good with sending ones overseas as long as they are someone else's, a someone else who probably will be out competing with you for the next job because there's one less here?
3) We're equally outraged if not moreso at 10s of billions in LOANS as compared to 100s of billions in "free money" because it has to do with something more "personal" like a car.
4) Most people don't like their employers and how they treat employees but the groups that, in theory, represent them (unions) are even worse!

There are at least a half dozen more simple contradictions in this whole mess but I don't need to rehash this thread again. We've already done this in the recession thread, iirc. What I'm saying is definitely a little glib but if you just mouth cliches without even thinking about the other factors, then you clearly don't understand the complexity of the problem

SI

[Balldog]

The quickest way to save money when people aren't buying cars is to cut cost but cutting wages. If my employer told me I had to move to Mexico, Germany, etc. to save my job I'd do it in a heart beat given the current state of the economy.

GM has made some questionable decisions, I never understood why they insist on building the same car in multiple production locations. Its a nightmare for the supply chain, packaging, etc. They were within days of building all new tools to support increased demand for the Malibu when gas prices sky rocketed, which would've cost them millions of dollars. Luckily somehow they avoided that mistake, I'm not sure they know how they did it though.

[Bobble]

As far as the whole American foreign debate and where the cars are built. the workers on the assembly line are only a small part of that equation. When you buy an American car that money goes to the owners of that car, an American company that pays American taxes and American dividends. Buy a Toyota or Nissan and sure you employ some dude in Tenn or Alabama, but the true profit hits the Nikei not Wall Street and the Japanese gov't gets the tax dollars.

As far as quality goes, I challenge anyone here to go drive an 08 or 09 Taurus and a Camry and Accord the same day. We recently bought 3 cars (our first not truck or SUV in our company fleet) and I was trying to decide between Camry and Accord, I mentioned it while picking up one a new field Truck at the Ford dealer and was challenged the same. Needless to say we have 3 Tauruses now and I was amazed. To me Ford cars were crap...but this is a very tight well put together, extremely comfortable and powerful vehicle. Just drive one and if you still think its garbage, our tastes just differ. And Ford has out performed Toyota and Honda in 1st year and 1st 3 year reliability for 5 years now.

Well said.

[dubb93]

I have an 08 Cobalt I bought brand new last year. So far 15,000 miles into it it has been in the shop 4 times. Three times for something related to the ignition and once for a timing chain.

I have an 01 Mustang GT I bought slightly used in 2003. It had 18,000 miles on it when I purchased it and now is sitting at 86,000 miles. It has never been in the shop for anything other than routine maintenance.

This is a small sample size, but that is what the auto industry prides themselves on is small sample sizes(repeat business). I'm only 23 and have purchased these two cars already so far in my life. The next time I need to purchase another car I can tell you I will not look at GM/Chevy, I will go straight to a Ford dealer.

[Desnudo]

As far as the whole American foreign debate and where the cars are built. the workers on the assembly line are only a small part of that equation. When you buy an American car that money goes to the owners of that car, an American company that pays American taxes and American dividends. Buy a Toyota or Nissan and sure you employ some dude in Tenn or Alabama, but the true profit hits the Nikei not Wall Street and the Japanese gov't gets the tax dollars.

As far as quality goes, I challenge anyone here to go drive an 08 or 09 Taurus and a Camry and Accord the same day. We recently bought 3 cars (our first not truck or SUV in our company fleet) and I was trying to decide between Camry and Accord, I mentioned it while picking up one a new field Truck at the Ford dealer and was challenged the same. Needless to say we have 3 Tauruses now and I was amazed. To me Ford cars were crap...but this is a very tight well put together, extremely comfortable and powerful vehicle. Just drive one and if you still think its garbage, our tastes just differ. And Ford has out performed Toyota and Honda in 1st year and 1st 3 year reliability for 5 years now.

And finally the 800 ton elephant in the room. Get rid of the damn unions and we could keep the jobs in America. We have all heard the stories...but it is perfectly clear to me, while unions had a place at one time in this country and probably still do, say in present day China, they are un-needed and a burden to productivity and profitability today.

Which the Japanese government uses to buy US bonds. Might as well follow it all the way through.

[Glengoyne]

On the quality bit, Some big independent quality award...like Car and Driver or Motor Trend just announced that Jaguar and Buick won the dependability award for the 2006 model year. Displacing Lexus, who had been #1 for years. NPR had some industry guy on basically stating that the quality gap just isn't there any more. Society is ten years behind the times.

[Chief Rum]

Which the Japanese government uses to buy US bonds. Might as well follow it all the way through.

Just what we need--more foreign ownership of the US debt!

[Balldog]

I have an 08 Cobalt I bought brand new last year. So far 15,000 miles into it it has been in the shop 4 times. Three times for something related to the ignition and once for a timing chain.

I have an 01 Mustang GT I bought slightly used in 2003. It had 18,000 miles on it when I purchased it and now is sitting at 86,000 miles. It has never been in the shop for anything other than routine maintenance.

This is a small sample size, but that is what the auto industry prides themselves on is small sample sizes(repeat business). I'm only 23 and have purchased these two cars already so far in my life. The next time I need to purchase another car I can tell you I will not look at GM/Chevy, I will go straight to a Ford dealer.

My experience is almost the exact opposite bought a Ford Tauras brand new a few years back and I had all kinds of issues with it. It stalled on me, while I was driving it home for instance. I kept buying Ford though, until I bought a 2005 Pontiac Grand Prix and haven't had any issues - we are right around 70,000 miles. I also have a 2001 Ford Explorer and have had no issues with it - we are at 116,000 miles on that guy.

Every car is different, the same stories exist for Honda, Toyota, etc. There are just fewer.

[gstelmack]

My experience is almost the exact opposite bought a Ford Tauras brand new a few years back and I had all kinds of issues with it. It stalled on me, while I was driving it home for instance. I kept buying Ford though, until I bought a 2005 Pontiac Grand Prix and haven't had any issues - we are right around 70,000 miles. I also have a 2001 Ford Explorer and have had no issues with it - we are at 116,000 miles on that guy.

Every car is different, the same stories exist for Honda, Toyota, etc. There are just fewer.

My 1995 Ford Explorer was fantastic and was still doing okay when we "upgraded" in 2003 to a new model with some extra features we needed as we had just had our first child. Of course they had just redone them, and it was a piece of junk. My brother-in-law is a fleet mechaninc, and they had several of that model year as well that were all falling apart at around 100,000 miles.

We replaced it 18 months ago with a Honda Odyssey. The minivans had several advantages for us over an SUV, and when you're looking minivan the choice is pretty much Toyota vs Honda. Some of the US models are okay, but they can't touch these two right now.

My favorite car was the Saturn. I loved both Saturns I had, but my wife couldn't handle the small size (and they're low enough to the ground she hated getting in and out). And of course GM has taken away everything that made Saturn's special.

[DanGarion]

On the quality bit, Some big independent quality award...like Car and Driver or Motor Trend just announced that Jaguar and Buick won the dependability award for the 2006 model year. Displacing Lexus, who had been #1 for years. NPR had some industry guy on basically stating that the quality gap just isn't there any more. Society is ten years behind the times.

I trust Consumer Reports before I trust any magazine that has CAR advertising in their CAR magazine.

[CU Tiger]

I have an 08 Cobalt I bought brand new last year. So far 15,000 miles into it it has been in the shop 4 times. Three times for something related to the ignition and once for a timing chain.

I have an 01 Mustang GT I bought slightly used in 2003. It had 18,000 miles on it when I purchased it and now is sitting at 86,000 miles. It has never been in the shop for anything other than routine maintenance.

This is a small sample size, but that is what the auto industry prides themselves on is small sample sizes(repeat business). I'm only 23 and have purchased these two cars already so far in my life. The next time I need to purchase another car I can tell you I will not look at GM/Chevy, I will go straight to a Ford dealer.


In the sake of fairness you are comparing the entry level to the flagship...

[CU Tiger]

I trust Consumer Reports before I trust any magazine that has CAR advertising in their CAR magazine.


Right because consumer reports experts surely know more about cars than car guys...Where DO you go o school to learn how to rate Cars, Toasters, Gas grill and blankets?

[sterlingice]

BTW, until we went down the Car and Drivers vs Consumer Reports avenue, which was at least a little back on topic (I heard the story Glengoyne was mentioning yesterday and thought of this thread), I'm going to go back to a post I remembered making a few months ago:

Ooh! Ooh! Can we have an entire threadjack of anecdotal evidence where everyone sees what they want to see in the quality of cars?

SI

Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - GM-Chrysler Merger (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=1865787&postcount=23)

SI

[SportsDino]

I'd argue with some thinking that you can improve the reliability of cars across the board from where it is now. And in my opinion there should be no 'entry level' car that operates like a piece of junk. Lack of breakdowns (with routine maintenance) should be a basic assumption in buying a car. The luxury lines should distance themselves with features, higher performance (there is a tradeoff I would assume in raw power versus lifespan of parts), and maybe more body models to choose from.

The 'entry' level cars should collapse the half billion models out there into one reliable one that may get boring to see on the road all the time (well one per major company), but gives you that much more incentive if you care about that crap to go luxury.

I think right now the current business model supports a lot of wasted effort, meaningless choices (as in models to close to justify a separate notch in the spectrum), and designs that move away from processes of steady increases in reliability (seeking 'tagline' features with unproven parts, splitting teams across multiple sub-brands rather than pooling talent to perfect one key car that covers its range in the spectrum well, etc...)

I have not had too much trouble with my only car to date, a GM car actually, but the sensor/computer/something on the traction control went haywire within a year of purchase and nearly KILLED me. That is not how you win repeat customers (hard to buy a car if your frickin dead).

I know people will start up a choir about how I'm wrong and the car industry is all great and what not, but I'm sorry I actually like to think critically about everything and that is how you move forward in ANY business. All of the automakers have been patting themselves on the back and playing boardroom grabass for too long and it shows in public attitudes towards cars, quality metrics on cars, the rate of technology adoption in cars, and ineffiecency in the production of cars.

[finketr]

Is there really much a difference anymore? Some parts are built in Asia, some in Mexico, some in the US, etc.. Some cars are assembled in Asia, some in Mexico, some in the US, etc.

Is it possible to tell how "foreign" any given car is anymore?

EDIT: And sorry about the job losses. Don't mean to sound insensitive if I do.

on my new nissan, the sticker had the percentages of parts that were manufactured wherever.

[Neon_Chaos]

Even though I don't like it, it makes sense for GM to move shit to other countries when they can pay their workers $10 an hour instead of $28 just for putting valve springs in an engine.

$10 an hour?

It wouldn't even be $10 a day.

[cartman]

On the quality bit, Some big independent quality award...like Car and Driver or Motor Trend just announced that Jaguar and Buick won the dependability award for the 2006 model year. Displacing Lexus, who had been #1 for years. NPR had some industry guy on basically stating that the quality gap just isn't there any more. Society is ten years behind the times.

I trust Consumer Reports before I trust any magazine that has CAR advertising in their CAR magazine.

Right because consumer reports experts surely know more about cars than car guys...Where DO you go o school to learn how to rate Cars, Toasters, Gas grill and blankets?

Just to set the record straight, it was JD Powers.

Buick, Jaguar dethrone Lexus in J.D. Power reliability study - USATODAY.com (http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2009-03-19-reliability_N.htm?csp=34)

[cody8200]

...for now. I will NEVER purchase a foreign car.

I think this is false hope. In 10 years, there will be no major American car companies. They have priced themselves out of a job.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

I think this is false hope. In 10 years, there will be no major American car companies. They have priced themselves out of a job.

Then I will buy used American cars until I am dead, dead, dead. (Which is exactly where our nation will be with no manufacturing base of any kind.)

[cuervo72]

And I'm certain that if they move it to Brazil, it will be a lot less than $10 an hour. Otherwise, you could easily set up shop in a midwest college town where you get a lot of educated workers in your simple job for low wages like that

With unions? Not so sure that would work.

[dawgfan]

...but it is perfectly clear to me, while unions had a place at one time in this country and probably still do, say in present day China, they are un-needed and a burden to productivity and profitability today.
Is that kind of like how at one time in this country it was appropriate for commercial banks to not also be investment banks (but not now), and how we no longer need strict regulation of the financial markets? Yeah, how's that been working out for all of us?

Look, I get that unions are in major need of reform, but the reason unions were created in the first place has not gone away - get rid of unions, and the same pressure to abuse workers will rear up again. Yes, with the advent of the information age it's easier to publicize said abuse and try to shame companies into behaving ethically, but that's still not as effective as workers negotiating as a collective.

[Bad-example]

I have been helping my father look for a new car the last couple weeks. He is most interested in a 2009 Taurus or Sable but no dealers in the bay area have even a single one. They keep trying to push new 2008 models on us. Technically new, that is, as they are reportedly repossessions from failed dealerships.

So, no 2009's in stock. Claim they will get some next month. Wiki says that the 2010 models are due out in July. Really unsure what advice to give my pop.

[Samdari]

...for now. I will NEVER purchase a foreign car.

You do realize this attitude is part of the problem right?

The US car industry has been able to be profitable/stay afloat making bad business and design decisions for years because of people who would buy their cars despite their obviously poor quality/price value out of a misplaced sense of patriotism. By not forcing them to reevaluate their business practices years ago, when there was still time for them to be saved, the "buy American" public has actually enabled their current fate?

[fantom1979]

An article from 2006/7 that shows what percentage of a car is made in America....
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-03-21-car-content-chart_N.htm


Some interesting Foreign cars:
Isuzu Ascender 86%, Assembled in Ohio
Toyota Sienna 85% Assembled in Indiana
Toyoto Camry Solara, 80% Assembled in Kentucky
Mitsubishi Raider, 78%, Assembled in Michigan
Toyota Camry, 75%, Assembled in Kentucky
Toyota Tundra, 75%, Assembled in Texas, Indiana


Interesting "American" cars:
Dodge Avenger 0%, Assembled in Michigan
Chrysler Crossfile, 0%, Assembled in England
Chevrolet Aveo, 4%, Assembled in South Korea
Pontiac GTO, 20%, Assembled in Austrailia
Chrysler PT Cruiser Convertible, 31%, Assembled in Mexico
Mercury Milan, 50%, Assembled in Mexico


The list of American cars is generous... I left out Mazda, Jaguar, Volvo, and Land Rover, which are owned by American companies, but just about all of these models are made and assembled overseas.

[Aylmar]

The list of American cars is generous... I left out Mazda, Jaguar, Volvo, and Land Rover, which are owned by American companies, but just about all of these models are made and assembled overseas.

The only one left in that list is Volvo. Ford sold Jaguar and Land Rover in June '08 and are planning to surrender control of Mazda in the very near future (if they haven't already done it). I've seen rumors that Ford is considering selling Volvo, but the company has been denying them from everything I've been able to find.

[Balldog]

An article from 2006/7 that shows what percentage of a car is made in America....
How American is that car? - USATODAY.com (http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-03-21-car-content-chart_N.htm)


Some interesting Foreign cars:
Isuzu Ascender 86%, Assembled in Ohio
Toyota Sienna 85% Assembled in Indiana
Toyoto Camry Solara, 80% Assembled in Kentucky
Mitsubishi Raider, 78%, Assembled in Michigan
Toyota Camry, 75%, Assembled in Kentucky
Toyota Tundra, 75%, Assembled in Texas, Indiana


Interesting "American" cars:
Dodge Avenger 0%, Assembled in Michigan
Chrysler Crossfile, 0%, Assembled in England
Chevrolet Aveo, 4%, Assembled in South Korea
Pontiac GTO, 20%, Assembled in Austrailia
Chrysler PT Cruiser Convertible, 31%, Assembled in Mexico
Mercury Milan, 50%, Assembled in Mexico


The list of American cars is generous... I left out Mazda, Jaguar, Volvo, and Land Rover, which are owned by American companies, but just about all of these models are made and assembled overseas.

I'm shocked that you live in Sterling Heights yet post this garbage considering Dodge Avenger is built in Sterling Heights. I worked on the program, still work on it from time to time.

Edit: A majority of the suppliers for the program are local, it was a requirement to get the business. We make seats, doors, front end, exhaust, and IP. All within a 90 mile radius of Sterling Heights.

[Balldog]

My biggest problem with GM and Chrysler right now are the deals still aren't all that great. We are in the new market for a new car and I don't see anything that special from either of them. You'd think given the inventories and the problems they are having they'd be advertising damn near their best price just to get people to the dealerships.

[Balldog]

I have been helping my father look for a new car the last couple weeks. He is most interested in a 2009 Taurus or Sable but no dealers in the bay area have even a single one. They keep trying to push new 2008 models on us. Technically new, that is, as they are reportedly repossessions from failed dealerships.

So, no 2009's in stock. Claim they will get some next month. Wiki says that the 2010 models are due out in July. Really unsure what advice to give my pop.

If you are looking at the Taurus, I'd hold off for the 2010. It's a very impressive vehicle. You are going to pay a little more though.

[fantom1979]

I'm shocked that you live in Sterling Heights yet post this garbage considering Dodge Avenger is built in Sterling Heights. I worked on the program, still work on it from time to time.

Edit: A majority of the suppliers for the program are local, it was a requirement to get the business. We make seats, doors, front end, exhaust, and IP. All within a 90 mile radius of Sterling Heights.


Why are you shocked? The info I posted is from the USA Today, it is states that the car is made in Michigan, just none of the parts are. Even if the number is incorrect for that model, the chart has many examples.

On another note....

1. I may live in Michigan, but I will never buy an "American" car. I bought three straight "American" cars from 1987-2001 that were total junk. None of them made it to 75,000 miles. My piece of crap 2001 Hyundai Tiberon, that I bought as a cheap second car, is still going strong with no major problems at 125,000. Just because consumer reports, or car and driver says that they are making better cars now, it doesn't fix pieces of crap they made in the past.

2. I have seen Bob Nardelli up close and personal when I was in a district office for Home Depot. The guy ruined Home Depot. Everything became about immediate profit. The easiest way to achieve that is by reducing labor and lowering the cost of materials. Customer Service and providing a high quality product were not on his agenda.

3. I watched as my grand parents were kicked out of Poletown by GM and Coleman Young. I will never forgive that.


These are all personal opinions, and I am not trying to change anyone's mind here. I am just giving my view of the American Car Industry, and why I couldn't care less if they burned to the ground tomorrow.

[Balldog]

Why are you shocked? The info I posted is from the USA Today, it is states that the car is made in Michigan, just none of the parts are. Even if the number is incorrect for that model, the chart has many examples.

On another note....

1. I may live in Michigan, but I will never buy an "American" car. I bought three straight "American" cars from 1989-2001 that were total junk. None of them made it to 75,000 miles. My piece of crap 2001 Hyundai Tiberon, that I bought as a cheap second car, is still going strong with no major problems at 125,000. Just because consumer reports, or car and driver says that they are making better cars now, it doesn't fix pieces of crap they made in the past.

2. I have seen Bob Nardelli up close and personal when I was in a district office for Home Depot. The guy ruined Home Depot. Everything became about immediate profit. The easiest way to achieve that is by reducing labor and lowering the cost of materials. Customer Service and providing a high quality product were not on his agenda.

3. I watched as my grand parents were kicked out of Poletown by GM and Coleman Young. I will never forgive that.


These are all personal opinions, and I am not trying to change anyone's mind here.

Sorry didn't realize you had an axe to grind and I thought you'd be more informed on what was going on in your city, my bad.

Just so you know I drove a 1994 Ford Escort until it had over 120,000 miles on it. A 1997 Ford Escort that topped 130,000 miles and currently have a 2001 Explorer at 116,000 miles. I had zero issues with any of these cars. My brother and my best friend each had a 2001 Ford Taurus and got over 150,000 miles from them. This is back when there quality was shit.

I am just giving my view of the American Car Industry, and why I couldn't care less if they burned to the ground tomorrow.

I find this comical coming from anyone living in Michigan. You do realize that Michigan's economy is directly tied to automotive, don't you? Not just automotive workers will lose their jobs, pretty much everything will be wiped out. Who cares, I'll sell my house and move...right? Who is going to buy it? If you live in Michigan you don't have to work in automotive to realize what kind of impact that could have here, at least I wouldn't think.

[JediKooter]

What better...Matt Millen running the Lions or the auto industry in Michigan?

[M GO BLUE!!!]

I found this interesting on BBC

Asked about a dispute between the two nations which began after the US stopped a pilot scheme which allowed Mexican trucks to use roads in the US, Mrs Clinton said only that she was aware of the dangers of protectionism.

Mexico said the decision earlier this month violated a free-trade deal between the countries and retaliated by imposing higher tariffs on some 90 American exports.

Why is it that no matter what party is in power they preach how bad "protectionism" would be for us and how "free trade" is necessary. We seem to be the only nation that does what it can to screw ourselves. How bad can tariffs be is our "free trade" partners regularly impose them on us?

[Wolfpack]

I find this comical coming from anyone living in Michigan. You do realize that Michigan's economy is directly tied to automotive, don't you? Not just automotive workers will lose their jobs, pretty much everything will be wiped out. Who cares, I'll sell my house and move...right? Who is going to buy it? If you live in Michigan you don't have to work in automotive to realize what kind of impact that could have here, at least I wouldn't think.

In a sense, isn't this the problem that Michigan has had for going on four decades now? While not a native, I lived there long enough to know that Michigan is way too dependant on the auto industry. Because of this, it never really boosted much during the 1990s run-up and never really recovered with the rest of the country after 2001. It never seemed to figure out how to diversify very much into other industries or ways of life. Of course, exceptions exist as it's a pretty big state, but Michigan feels very much like a one-factory town that's about to lose that factory.

[fantom1979]

Sorry didn't realize you had an axe to grind and I thought you'd be more informed on what was going on in your city, my bad.


Of course I have an axe to grind. You watch your grandparents get thrown out of a house that they have owned for 40 years. You buy a car that is a piece of shit.
Because I do not know how many parts are made in the US for the Dodge Avenger, I am not informed about things going in Sterling Heights? Last time I checked, Sterling Heights Assembly didn't invite me for a personal tour of the plant and its manufacture facilities.

I quoted a USA Today article about the Avenger. I don't work for the Big 3. I am sorry if you found the article inaccurate, maybe you should take it up with Gannett.



Just so you know I drove a 1994 Ford Escort until it had over 120,000 miles on it. A 1997 Ford Escort that topped 130,000 miles and currently have a 2001 Explorer at 116,000 miles. I had zero issues with any of these cars. My brother and my best friend each had a 2001 Ford Taurus and got over 150,000 miles from them. This is back when there quality was shit.
If I was you or your friends, I would consider myself lucky. I was not so lucky. When someone keeps kicking me in the ass, I don't come back and ask for more. My 1987 Buick Skyhawk was delivered to me without reverse. It was a manual transmission, and when you put it in reverse, it was the same as being in neutral. My 1989 Pontiac Grand Prix was sold to me with defective back brakes (they were stuck "open"). They were not covered under warranty, I had to contact an attorney to get any attention from Pontiac at all. These were NEW cars...


I find this comical coming from anyone living in Michigan. You do realize that Michigan's economy is directly tied to automotive, don't you? Not just automotive workers will lose their jobs, pretty much everything will be wiped out. Who cares, I'll sell my house and move...right? Who is going to buy it? If you live in Michigan you don't have to work in automotive to realize what kind of impact that could have here, at least I wouldn't think.
No, I fully understand the impact.

I don't think that the Union understands the impact. At some point you have to look at yourself in the mirror and realize that job banks, getting paid for full shifts when you work 4 hours, and $30/hour wages probably aren't very good for the industry. Raising the cost to make cars is going to price yourself out of the market.

I don't think car companies understand the impact. Making shitty cars for 30 years is usually a recipe for disaster. Making a car that people want with good quality would be a good start.

There is a reason why only 45% (57% in Jan of 2005) of all cars sold were American last month. They have a rep for being over priced and below par quality. That rep wasn't pulled out of thin air.

[Balldog]

Of course I have an axe to grind. You watch your grandparents get thrown out of a house that they have owned for 40 years.

Don't understand this and its none of my business but ok.

If I was you or your friends, I would consider myself lucky. I was not so lucky. When someone keeps kicking me in the ass, I don't come back and ask for more. My 1987 Buick Skyhawk was delivered to me without reverse. It was a manual transmission, and when you put it in reverse, it was the same as being in neutral. My 1989 Pontiac Grand Prix was sold to me with defective back brakes (they were stuck "open"). They were not covered under warranty, I had to contact an attorney to get any attention from Pontiac at all. These were NEW cars...

I don't know if I'd say lucky, seems like we were more informed and test drove our vehicles. Both of those problems you could've found during a test drive. How did either of those prevent your car from topping 75,000 miles?


I don't think that the Union understands the impact. At some point you have to look at yourself in the mirror and realize that job banks, getting paid for full shifts when you work 4 hours, and $30/hour wages probably aren't very good for the industry. Raising the cost to make cars is going to price yourself out of the market.

Agree 100% percent.


There is a reason why only 45% (57% in Jan of 2005) of all cars sold were American last month. They have a rep for being over priced and below par quality. That rep wasn't pulled out of thin air.

The problem is that 45% of zero is still zero. There aren't enough cars being bought overall, foreign automakers are struggling too. They don't have the high costs like American automakers do, partly cause they haven't been in the US as long and therefore do not have the legacy costs.