Officer delays family racing to see dying mom

[Passacaglia]

http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa090325_mo_detained.6f8a23c1.html


By REBECCA LOPEZ / WFAA-TV

Dallas PD
Ryan Motes' wife and other family members (right) leave the scene while a Dallas police Officer Robert Powell detains the NFL player outside the emergency room.


NEWS 8 EXCLUSIVE
Rebecca Lopez reports
More WFAA Latest News video
View larger E-mail clip More video
Related links:

LINK: Unedited Dallas PD dashcam video
LINK Ryan Moats NFL stats
Search Video:

DALLAS — Racing to see his dying mother-in-law at a Plano hospital, an NFL player found himself delayed by a Dallas officer after he was stopped in the emergency room parking lot.

With his wife and another woman in the car, Ryan Moats — a running back for the Houston Texans — sped his car toward the hospital early on March 17. But when Moats arrived at the parking lot, they were stopped by Officer Robert Powell.

Dashcam video from the Dallas officer's patrol car captured the incident.

"Get in there," Officer Powell yelled out to Tamishia Moats, Ryan's wife, as she exited the car. "Let me see your hands. Get in there. Put your hands on the car."

"Excuse me; my mom is dying," Moats said.

Tamishia Moats and the other woman ignored Officer Powell's commands and rushed inside the hospital to see her mother as Ryan Moats and Officer Powell went back-and-forth over insurance paperwork the NFL player was unable to locate.

MOATS: "I've got seconds before she's gone, man."

POWELL: "Listen: If I can't verify you have insurance..."

MOATS: "My mother-in-law is dying!"

POWELL: "Listen to me."

MOATS: "Right now, you're wasting my time."

POWELL: "If you can't verify you have insurance, I'm going to tow your car. So, you either find it or I am going to tow the car."

As they argued, the officer got irritated.

POWELL: "Shut your mouth. Shut your mouth. You can either settle down and cooperate, or I can just take you to jail for running a red light."


Dallas PD
The tape shows a nurse coming out of the hospital, pleading with Officer Powell to let Moats join his wife and her dying mother inside..
In a telephone interview, Moats said the clash with the officer was totally unexpected. "For him to not even be sympathetic at all, and basically we're dogs or something and we don't matter — it basically shocked me," he said.

No compassion was indicated in the police recording of the incident. "I can screw you over," Officer Powell said. "I would rather not do that. You obviously will dictate everything that happens; and right now, your attitude sucks."

The hospital twice sent nurses to try and get the officer to release Moats.

"We're blue-coding her for the third time," a nurse said on the police videotape.

A Plano police officer stopped to make a plea for the officer to let Moats go. "Hey, that's the nurse," the Plano officer said. "She says the mom is dying right now, and she wants to know if I can get him up there."

Finally, after a 20-minute delay, the officer ticketed Moats for running a red light.

By the time Moats made it up to the emergency room, his mother-in-law was dead.

"I went up after she passed and held her hand, but she was already gone," Moats said in a telephone interview.

Dallas police have apologized to the Moats family, dropped the ticket, and launched a review of the incident.

“When it came to our attention, we immediately called for an internal investigation to be done,” said police spokesman Lt. Andy Havey.

E-mail [email protected]

[Mustang]

I'm sure police officers hear things like this all the time, but given that they were in the hospital parking lot, it should have been easy enough to verify the story and especially after the nurse came out.

After that you are no longer a police officer, you're just a uniformed douche bag.

[sterlingice]

Aside from being a little careless with his language (the "I can screw you over" line), I don't see what the officer did wrong. It's a really unfortunate situation and I really feel for them, but I don't see how this could have gone any differently. I would hope the officer would be sympathetic but if they ran a red light... I dunno- that really is putting them above public safety.

If I were Moats, I'd be pissed. But I think we're trying to view this through all lenses.

SI

[gstelmack]

And if they hadn't got out of the car and immediately raced into the hospital and instead had taken the time to explain to the officer UP FRONT (which the officer mentions later) there wouldn't have been an issue. How does the officer know they aren't running inside with a gun or something?

This was a misunderstanding on both sides as these things often are.

[JPhillips]

You have the license number. You can verify the license. It wouldn't be that hard to issue the ticket later due to these circumstances. This isn't a violent individual that could be a threat to public safety.

[DanGarion]

Officer was a dick, but regardless of why you are doing it, if you break the law and PUT OTHER PEOPLE'S LIVES IN RISK you don't really deserve much empathy, especially since the officer doesn't know why or what they are doing.

[gstelmack]

This isn't a violent individual that could be a threat to public safety.

Two people get out of the car and head for the hospital. How do you know what is going on at this point, and how can you take their word for it? Getting out of the car is like the cardinal sin of a traffic stop.

[JPhillips]

Because it says on the transcript a good part of the delay was making sure there was proof of insurance. I can understand an initial need to verify safety, but refusing to let Moates go because he can't provide proof of insurance is excessive douchebaggery.

[Mustang]

There is a big difference between an officer stopping someone to find out what is going on and delaying this entire process for 20 minutes even AFTER another officer makes a comment.

[Travis]

And if they hadn't got out of the car and immediately raced into the hospital and instead had taken the time to explain to the officer UP FRONT (which the officer mentions later) there wouldn't have been an issue. How does the officer know they aren't running inside with a gun or something?

This was a misunderstanding on both sides as these things often are.

The wife and another woman ran inside (and the officer let them go), not Ryan Moats, who did try to explain the situation and how time sensitive it was. At that point, accompany him in then. Once a nurse comes out and verifies the story, the cop really has lost any sympathy from me (at least based on how things are worded in the article).

I understand that he's trying to uphold the law, but if (and yes that's a big if) Moats was being honest when he said he made sure it was safe before proceeding through the red light, then a lot more compassion should have been shown given the circumstances and location.

[larrymcg421]

Yeah, the problem isn't the initial detention. I don't think anyone is questioning that. The problem is the need to verify insurance when two nurses have come out to beg the officer to let the guy see his dying mother in law. At this point, the officer could have followed the guy to the ER and waited outside the room.

[JediKooter]

The cop was a dick, plain and simple. He continued to be a dick even after a nurse and a SECOND COP told him everything was true and to let him go see his mother in law.

The cop has my vote for Dick of the Year Award.

[Izulde]

Yeah, the problem isn't the initial detention. I don't think anyone is questioning that. The problem is the need to verify insurance when two nurses have come out to beg the officer to let the guy see his dying mother in law. At this point, the officer could have followed the guy to the ER and waited outside the room.

Precisely my thoughts.

[Noop]

The officer was doing his job... I think his attitude sucked but he was doing his job.

[Raiders Army]

The officer was doing his job... I think his attitude sucked but he was doing his job.

There's a difference between doing your job and abuse of power. The cop was on a power trip.

[Noop]

There's a difference between doing your job and abuse of power. The cop was on a power trip.

Hey man I am more often then not on the side of the citizen. However in this case the man was doing his job albeit with a shitty attitude.

[Raiders Army]

I believe I read the ESPN spun article and it implied that there were racial overtones to the officer's attitude as well. Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should.

A policeman's job is to ensure the public safety. He could have done that numerous ways other than what he did. Based upon the information in the article, I would say that at the minimum he didn't do his job properly and at the maximum he was definitely abusing his power.

[Eaglesfan27]

Based on the article, I agree that it is an abuse of power. I've actually seen officers come into the ED with a person because they were stopped for a traffic violation to confirm that they had a family member they were rushing to see. I don't see any reason this officer could not have confirmed the story with the hospital, once he quickly ascertained this guy wasn't carrying a weapon.

[Pyser]

i think the officer should be severely disciplined

[Young Drachma]

If he wasn't an NFL player, it wouldn't have made the news. That said, the cop was just being a jerk. He might not have been "in the wrong," but he was being a real asshole.

[Noop]

Is this a common practice to be with someone as they die? I know it was something practiced in England back in the day. I didn't know people still do that and to me at least that's a little morbid.

[DanGarion]

I believe I read the ESPN spun article and it implied that there were racial overtones to the officer's attitude as well. Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should.

A policeman's job is to ensure the public safety. He could have done that numerous ways other than what he did. Based upon the information in the article, I would say that at the minimum he didn't do his job properly and at the maximum he was definitely abusing his power.

Considering the history of these types of stories on the board, I'm surprised the race card wasn't already pulled...

[MJ4H]

Is this a common practice to be with someone as they die? I know it was something practiced in England back in the day. I didn't know people still do that and to me at least that's a little morbid.

???

[wade moore]

Is this a common practice to be with someone as they die? I know it was something practiced in England back in the day. I didn't know people still do that and to me at least that's a little morbid.

From my perspective this is a 100% normal thing.

In fact, I have the exact same reaction to your statement as you do to Moats. Something along the lines of (and what I posted originally), "um, what?". To me it is a given that if it is at all possible, you are at the side of a dying loved one as they pass.

[Noop]

Like be by their side as they die.

[Mustang]

Is this a common practice to be with someone as they die? I know it was something practiced in England back in the day. I didn't know people still do that and to me at least that's a little morbid.

Huh?

[MJ4H]

Like be by their side as they die.

Yes? Are you saying if your wife or mother was dying you wouldn't want to be with them?

What?

[Mustang]

Like be by their side as they die.

I didn't know that there was anyone out there that wouldn't try to be at someone's side.

[Noop]

Yes? Are you saying if your wife or mother was dying you wouldn't want to be with them?

What?

Like everyone is in the room while the person dies? That creeps the hell out of me. I mean if its my parents I don't think I would be able to do it without crying like a little baby then having nightmares about the whole event for the next few months. I wouldn't want them to die alone or anything...man thinking about it makes me feel weird.

[wade moore]

Like everyone is in the room while the person dies? That creeps the hell out of me. I mean if its parents I don't think I would be able to do it without crying like a little baby then having nightmares about the whole event for the next few months. I wouldn't want them to die alone or anything...man thinking about it makes me feel weird.

Crying can be good.

[Noop]

I didn't know that there was anyone out there that wouldn't try to be at someone's side.

I honestly thought that was something from back in the day.

[Noop]

Crying can be good.

It's not the crying it's the nightmares especially with my active mind.

[wade moore]

It's not the crying more then nightmares especially with my active mind.

Yeah. I'm just not sure what to tell you because I'm on the completely opposite side of this - that I'd find it completely abnormal for someone NOT to want to be with a loved one (and we're talking parents, wife, children here) as they passed.

Nightmares seems extreme to me, but I can't speak for what your imagination does.

[Noop]

Yeah. I'm just not sure what to tell you because I'm on the completely opposite side of this - that I'd find it completely abnormal for someone NOT to want to be with a loved one (and we're talking parents, wife, children here) as they passed.

Nightmares seems extreme to me, but I can't speak for what your imagination does.

Like I said I did not know people still do that, I read about Emily Dickinson and learned people did that. I tend to avoid things about death and dead people because that stuff gives me nightmares. I get nightmares from going to funerals and seeing someone's body.

[Eaglesfan27]

Being by parents' bedside is very much the norm I believe, and I'm a bit surprised anyone would question that. Spouses sure as heck better be there as well to support their wife/husband even if they weren't particularly close to the in-law.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I honestly thought that was something from back in the day.

You get the strangest notions sometimes. Thing is, I'm genuinely having a hard time figuring out where you got this one.

edit to add: You mentioned reading about this & not knowing people still did it ... from that should I gather that your family/the people around you don't, or at least haven't in the past decade or so?

Now don't get me wrong, everybody has to deal with death in their own way and by & large that's their business but as astonished as I was that you thought this was out of the norm, I'm even more speechless that there's actually some pattern of not doing so in your life. In the absence of some conflict in the relationship or something of that nature I can't say I've ever run across anyone who would have thought this odd. To think there's a group of people in the same orbit who would think so just blows my mind completely.

[Eaglesfan27]

Not a dola -

When my mother had her heart attack and we thought she might die, I remember my wife driving me to the hospital and I'm fairly sure she was at least 20 mph over the speed limit the whole way there.

[Kodos]

And don't you think the dying person might like to have their loved ones there to comfort them as they die?

[Raiders Army]

Like I said I did not know people still do that, I read about Emily Dickinson and learned people did that. I tend to avoid things about death and dead people because that stuff gives me nightmares. I get nightmares from going to funerals and seeing someone's body.

Maybe it would help if you would understand it from the dying individual point of view. Being with someone when they die is for them instead of for you. I would think that regardless of having nightmares, anyone would want to comfort someone else as they pass from this life...especially someone they love.

[Noop]

You get the strangest notions sometimes. Thing is, I'm genuinely having a hard time figuring out where you got this one.

Just as strange as it is to you, it is/was strange to me people participate in it. I have never heard of that being done in contemporary times never. I am not judging anyone who does it, in fact I can see why people would want to. However before reading this article it never occurred to me that people did this and considering I recently began studying Emily Dickinson I thought that was something practiced in England way back when.

It maybe more prevalent where you live or grew up but not for me.

[Mustang]

My be more prevalent where you live or grew up but not for me.

Where did you grow up? Mars???


;)

[Noop]

Where did you grow up? Mars???


;)

Apparently.

[Passacaglia]

Is this a common practice to be with someone as they die? I know it was something practiced in England back in the day. I didn't know people still do that and to me at least that's a little morbid.

I don't know if the thing is to be with someone "as they die" but the motivation is probably to see them alive one more time -- even if the signs of life aren't visible. I'm guessing that people feel better knowing that their loved ones weren't alone when they died.

[Neon_Chaos]

Just as strange as it is to you, it is/was strange to me people participate in it. I have never heard of that being done in contemporary times never. I am not judging anyone who does it, in fact I can see why people would want to. However before reading this article it never occurred to me that people did this and considering I recently began studying Emily Dickinson I thought that was something practiced in England way back when.

It maybe more prevalent where you live or grew up but not for me.

I really don't think it's a location thing. It's the same way here in the Philippines.

I'd gander to say that it's the same all around the world.

[Raiders Army]

Going back to the story, I watched most of the unedited dashcam video that the article links to. I gotta say it's pretty bad and the cop definitely pulled a power trip.

Edit--I really have to say that reading the words that were said really takes away from what happened. If you watch the video, I don't see how there's any way you can side with the cop.

[larrymcg421]

Maybe it would help if you would understand it from the dying individual point of view. Being with someone when they die is for them instead of for you. I would think that regardless of having nightmares, anyone would want to comfort someone else as they pass from this life...especially someone they love.

Yeah, the thought of a loved one dying alone gives me nightmares more than being with them as they die. Also, sometimes it's hard to let go of someone, so you want to spend every last possible moment you can with them.

[Huckleberry]

1. Noop, that is wild.

2. The cop was a complete asshat. More information:

NFL player pulled over outside hospital while rushing to be with dying relative

06:39 AM CDT on Thursday, March 26, 2009

By STEVE THOMPSON and TANYA EISERER / The Dallas Morning News

As he rushed his family to the hospital, 26-year-old NFL running back Ryan Moats rolled through a red light. A Dallas police officer pulled their SUV over outside the emergency room.

Moats and his wife explained that her mother was dying inside the hospital.

"You really want to go through this right now?" Moats pleaded. "My mother-in-law is dying. Right now!"

The officer, 25-year-old Robert Powell, was unmoved. He spent long minutes writing Moats a ticket and threatened him with arrest.

"I can screw you over," the officer told Moats. "I'd rather not do that."

The scene last week, captured by a dashboard video camera, prompted apologies and the promise of an investigation from Dallas police officials Wednesday.

"There were some things that were said that were disturbing, to say the least," said Lt. Andy Harvey, a police spokesman.

Moats' mother-in-law, Jonetta Collinsworth, was struggling at 45 with breast cancer that had spread throughout her body. Family members rushed to her bedside from as far away as California.

On March 17, the night of their incident with Powell, the Moatses had gone to their Frisco home to get some rest. Around midnight, they received word that they needed to hurry back to the hospital if they wanted to see Collinsworth before she died.

The couple, along with Collinsworth's father and an aunt, jumped into the SUV and headed back toward Baylor Regional Medical Center at Plano. They exited the Dallas North Tollway at Preston Road, just down the street from the hospital.

Moats turned on his hazard lights. He stopped at a red light, where, he said, the only nearby motorist signaled for him to go ahead. He went through.

Powell, watching traffic from a hidden spot, flipped on his lights and sirens. In less than a minute, he caught up to the SUV and followed for about 20 more seconds as Moats found a parking spot outside the emergency room.

Moats' wife, 27-year-old Tamishia, was the first out. Powell yelled at her to get back in.

"Get in there!" he yelled. "Let me see your hands!"

"My mom is dying," she explained.

Powell was undeterred.

"I saw in his eyes that he really did not care," Tamishia Moats said Wednesday.

Tamishia Moats and her great-aunt ignored the officer and headed into the hospital. Ryan Moats stayed behind with the father of the dying woman.

"I waited until no traffic was coming," Moats told Powell, explaining his passage through the red light. "I got seconds before she's gone, man."

Powell demanded his license and proof of insurance. Moats produced his license but said he didn't know where the insurance paperwork was.

"Just give me a ticket or whatever," he said, beginning to sound exasperated and a little argumentative.

"Shut your mouth," Powell told him. "You can cooperate and settle down, or I can just take you to jail for running a red light."

There was more back and forth.

"If you're going to give me a ticket, give me a ticket."

"Your attitude says that you need one."

"All I'm asking you is just to hurry up."

Powell began a lecture.

"If you want to keep this going, I'll just put you in handcuffs," the officer said, "and I'll take you to jail for running a red light."

Powell made several more points, including that the SUV was illegally parked. Moats replied "Yes sir" to each.

"Understand what I can do," Powell concluded. "I can tow your truck. I can charge you with fleeing. I can make your night very difficult."

"I understand," Moats responded. "I hope you'll be a great person and not do that."

Hospital security guards arrived and told Powell that the Moatses' relative really was upstairs dying.

Powell spent several minutes inside his squad car, in part to check Moats for outstanding warrants. He found none.

Another hospital staffer came out and spoke with a Plano police officer who had arrived.

"Hey, that's the nurse," the Plano officer told Powell. "She said that the mom's dying right now, and she's wanting to know if they can get him up there before she dies."

"All right," Powell replied. "I'm almost done."

As Moats signed the ticket, Powell continued his lecture.

"Attitude's everything," he said. "All you had to do is stop, tell me what was going on. More than likely, I would have let you go."

It had been about 13 minutes.

Moats and Collinsworth's father went into the hospital, where they found Collinsworth had died, with her daughter at her side.

The Moatses, who are black, said Wednesday that they can't help but think that race might have played a part in how Powell, who is white, treated them.

"I think he should lose his job," said Ryan Moats, a Dallas native who attended Bishop Lynch High School and now plays for the Houston Texans.

Powell, hired in January 2006, did not return a call for comment. Assistant Chief Floyd Simpson said Powell told police officials that he believed that he was doing his job. He has been re-assigned to dispatch pending an investigation.

"When people are in distress, we should come to the rescue," said Simpson. "We shouldn't further their distress."

Collinsworth was buried Saturday in Louisiana.

Rebecca Lopez of WFAA-TV contributed to this report.

[SackAttack]

Ticket the guy, tow the car if you're really afraid he's going to dodge it, whatever, but "I can screw you over" when the guy is saying "look, my mother is dying, can we do this in a little bit"?

I'm not sure that's worth firing, but it IS worth a nice long unpaid vacation. Part of being a police officer is being part of the community. Saying "I can screw you over" to part of the community you're supposed to be representing/defending is, IMO, unacceptable. Can't stop you from thinking it, but the minute you cross the line to saying it, you're not fit to wear the badge.

You either need, as I said, a nice, long unpaid vacation to reflect on the best way to remove your head from your ass, or you need a new line of work. Simple. You're there to protect and serve, not to "screw [someone] over."

[larrymcg421]

If it's true that he had his hazard lights on, then the officer should be out of a job. He seems a bit unstable.

[SackAttack]

Powell spent several minutes inside his squad car, in part to check Moats for outstanding warrants. He found none.

http://www.wstw.com/ryanmoats.jpg

Maybe I've just lived a sheltered life, but that's the first time I've ever looked at the action of a police officer and gone "...gotta be racial." I mean, are you kidding me? You pull the guy over for running a red light, you read him the riot act on all the ways you can screw him over, hospital security comes out to say "look, he's legit," and you're STILL detaining him to search for arrest warrants?

[DanGarion]

If it's true that he had his hazard lights on, then the officer should be out of a job. He seems a bit unstable.

Hazard lights make things ok?

[molson]

If it's true that he had his hazard lights on, then the officer should be out of a job. He seems a bit unstable.

Hazards don't give one immunity from traffic violations. (Neither does someone "waving" you to break the law - that's a common attempted defense in car accident cases)

When you're in a hurry to do something, that's the worst time to start breaking the law.

This officer had an attitude problem, but this guy was a dummy. Even in the best, most reasonable of circumstances, the pull-over is going to cost you more time than the red light would have.

[JediKooter]

Is running a red light even an arrestable offense? I'm sure there is some ambiguous code that a cop could use to make an arrest for running a red light, but come on, give me a break. That cop is useless to the community in my opinion and the department he belongs to would be best to either fire him or keep him off the streets.

I have not watched the video and one of my first thoughts was when I read the story, "I bet the driver is black and the cop is white".

* Edit to add: I think he was doing his job (even though he was clearly on a power trip) up until the point that a SECOND COP said that the football player was telling the truth. One of his peers could not even get him to turn off his power trip switch and that's a bad sign.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Is running a red light even an arrestable offense?

I would imagine it could be, under any variety of alternate charges such as public endangerment, reckless conduct, etc. And enough attitude could lead to it under whatever local version of "interference with an officer" a jurisdiction has.

Pretty much anything is arrestable under the right circumstances.

[watravaler]

Some cops don't respond well when their authority is questioned, what else is new?

Of course, the cop needs to assess the situation, but something should have clicked in his brain. Just another mouth-breather...

[lordscarlet]

I think the cop was a prick, I think he overstepped his boundaries, but I don't think he should be disciplined unless he has some sort of history of poor behavior.

[Fighter of Foo]

Aside from being a little careless with his language (the "I can screw you over" line), I don't see what the officer did wrong. It's a really unfortunate situation and I really feel for them, but I don't see how this could have gone any differently.
SI

The officer could have done nothing and let them go.

This isn't complicated.

[larrymcg421]

Hazard lights make things ok?

I think that leads to him getting the benefit of the doubt. And stil, my problem isn't with the initial stop. the problem is with him being detained for os long to check insurance even after the guy's story was being verified. I'm baffled as to how anyone thinks that's reasonable.

[Fighter of Foo]

The officer was doing his job... I think his attitude sucked but he was doing his job.

Worst. Excuse. Ever.

[larrymcg421]

This officer had an attitude problem, but this guy was a dummy. Even in the best, most reasonable of circumstances, the pull-over is going to cost you more time than the red light would have.

This is assuming that you can expect to get pulled over everytime you run a red light. If that happened in the ATL, the city would run out of tickets to print. Of course, this is also assuming you expect someone to be calm enough to think the situation through when someone they love is dying. I can tell you, if that was my case, the only thought in my mind was geytting in the car and going.

[molson]

People LOVE the jerk cop stories. It just sets something off.

Four murdered cops in Oakland doesn't arise the same kind of passion.

[molson]

This is assuming that you can expect to get pulled over everytime you run a red light. If that happened in the ATL, the city would run out of tickets to print.

It's a calculated risk (not just risk to him, but to the community) that didin't work out for him.

[molson]

Of course, this is also assuming you expect someone to be calm enough to think the situation through when someone they love is dying. I can tell you, if that was my case, the only thought in my mind was geytting in the car and going.

That's EXACTLY why you shouldn't be running red lights in that situation.

[Karlifornia]

I think the cop was a prick, I think he overstepped his boundaries, but I don't think he should be disciplined unless he has some sort of history of poor behavior.

Did you read that article? You seriously want this guy having the ability to lock people up?

Hoo boy. I don't want this guy anywhere near a pair of handcuffs.

[Karlifornia]

People LOVE the jerk cop stories. It just sets something off.

Four murdered cops in Oakland doesn't arise the same kind of passion.

Lemme guess. Dad was a cop? You're a cop? Uncle was a cop?

Cop to it, buddy.

[JediKooter]

People LOVE the jerk cop stories. It just sets something off.

Four murdered cops in Oakland doesn't arise the same kind of passion.

Well, for the record, the dude that killed those cops was a complete scum bag and I'm glad that he was killed.

[gstelmack]

The cop was dealing with a group of multiple people in the car, some of whom got out and tried to leave the scene immediately. When those two people head in and start shooting the place up, everyone would be calling for the cop's head for letting them get away.

That said, where's a link to the dashcam video? I'd love to see it, and it may change my mind completely when I see what happened, assuming the video shows enough. These videos have a habit of cutting in late and missing key parts of what led up to the problem.

[SackAttack]

I think that leads to him getting the benefit of the doubt. And stil, my problem isn't with the initial stop. the problem is with him being detained for os long to check insurance even after the guy's story was being verified. I'm baffled as to how anyone thinks that's reasonable.

Not just insurance. Arrest warrants, too.

He was fishing for a reason to lock the guy up at that point.

[JPhillips]

I don't think Moates should get off free. It's perfectly reasonable IMO to give him the ticket as he did violate the law. However, the way the cop handled the situation was wrong and we should expect a better level of judgment from the police.

[Noop]

Worst. Excuse. Ever.

Not even going to bother. I think your wrong.

[Noop]

That's EXACTLY why you shouldn't be running red lights in that situation.

Oscar Grant.

[Huckleberry]

People LOVE the jerk cop stories. It just sets something off.

Four murdered cops in Oakland doesn't arise the same kind of passion.

Actually, a healthy respect for police and what their relationship with citizens should be causes a reaction of disgust in both cases.

Police officers are given a large degree of power. Anybody with power that misuses and/or abuses that power deserves to have that power removed.

[Huckleberry]

Not even going to bother. I think your wrong.

You seriously can't come up with any examples where doing something even if it's part of your job is wrong? Really?

That's what makes your argument a bad one.

[JPhillips]

The cop was dealing with a group of multiple people in the car, some of whom got out and tried to leave the scene immediately. When those two people head in and start shooting the place up, everyone would be calling for the cop's head for letting them get away.

That said, where's a link to the dashcam video? I'd love to see it, and it may change my mind completely when I see what happened, assuming the video shows enough. These videos have a habit of cutting in late and missing key parts of what led up to the problem.

You can access the video through the original link. I'm having trouble getting it to load, however.

[molson]

Oscar Grant.

Lovelle Mixon

And the people who marched in Oakland calling him a hero this week.

People rallied in the streets for Lovelle Mixon who shot four Oakland police officers - 3/26/09 - San Francisco News - abc7news.com (http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/east_bay&id=6728974)

Next time an officer has an itchy trigger finger - maybe these thugs should share some of the blame.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Actually, a healthy respect for police and what their relationship with citizens should be causes a reaction of disgust in both cases.

Police officers are given a large degree of power. Anybody with power that misuses and/or abuses that power deserves to have that power removed.

I'm a big fan of police officers. What happened in Oakland was a tragedy. Doesn't change the fact that this police officer seemed to be on something of a power trip.

[Huckleberry]

The cop was dealing with a group of multiple people in the car, some of whom got out and tried to leave the scene immediately. When those two people head in and start shooting the place up, everyone would be calling for the cop's head for letting them get away.

That said, where's a link to the dashcam video? I'd love to see it, and it may change my mind completely when I see what happened, assuming the video shows enough. These videos have a habit of cutting in late and missing key parts of what led up to the problem.

:lol:

Yes, there's an epidemic of 27-year-old women and their elderly great-aunts going into hospitals and shooting them up these days. And their wheelmen generally tend to put their hazards on to alert everyone of the impending killing spree.

[gstelmack]

Watched the first 3 minutes or so of the video. Let me see:

1) Moates runs for a full minute after the cop turns on the lights and chases him, including a "rolling stop" through a stop sign with the cop right behind him, all the way to a parking place.

2) Woman jumps out and immediately heads for the hospital. Cop tells her to get back in the car, she argues. Other woman gets out, grabs her while she's yelling and pointing at the cop, and the two head for the front door while Moates gets out and walks toward the cop car.

3) Moates argues with the cop about the license and insurance.

3 strikes and you're out. He pulls over right away and explains to the cop, he's got a much better shot of making it in and getting cooperation like EaglesFan27 mentions. Run, yell at the cop, and have two people walk away after being told to stay in the car, I'm not surprised the cop is nervous. Again, routine traffic stop in Oakland leads to four dead officers. I'd be nervous, too.

[Huckleberry]

Lovelle Mixon

And the people who marched in Oakland calling him a hero this week.

People rallied in the streets for Lovelle Mixon who shot four Oakland police officers - 3/26/09 - San Francisco News - abc7news.com (http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/east_bay&id=6728974)

Next time an officer has an itchy trigger finger - maybe these thugs should share some of the blame.

No, those peopple deserve to have their asses kicked. But any officer that kills a citizen in the future because of these clowns' behavior is even more of a thug than they are.

[Noop]

You seriously can't come up with any examples where doing something even if it's part of your job is wrong? Really?

That's what makes your argument a bad one.

I said he was doing his job with a shitty attitude.

[Travis]

The cop was dealing with a group of multiple people in the car, some of whom got out and tried to leave the scene immediately. When those two people head in and start shooting the place up, everyone would be calling for the cop's head for letting them get away.

For the most part, this isn't what people are having a hard time with. It's the fact that he kept Moates out there for 13-20 minutes after that. I might be getting a few things wrong here, but from what I've read, what I'm getting here is that a cop see's a vehicle (with it's hazards on) roll up to a red, pause, then proceed through. He follows them to the hospital parking lot and as people get out of the vehicle, he's telling them to get back in. The woman tells him that her mother is dying and the two females proceed to the hospital while the two males remain behind and proceed to explain the situation to him while the driver is unable to find his insurance information.

So my question is, if he's willing to let the women go, not call in backup, not threaten to stop them, etc, why does he then choose to go all high and mighty on the other two even after nurses and another cop both come out to verify the story?

He did his job up to the point that the situation was explained to him in the parking lot. After that he exhibited horrible judgement (again, he could have just accompanied Moates into the hospital and figured out what fines/citations to give him once the situation is confirmed).

As it is, not only did he fail to show compassion to these people after finding out what was going on, but if you really want to look at it this way, if it were a case of evil people with designs on shooting up the hospital, he let two of them go in without stopping them while spending another 15 minutes asking for insurance papers, etc.

[Noop]

Lovelle Mixon

And the people who marched in Oakland calling him a hero this week.

People rallied in the streets for Lovelle Mixon who shot four Oakland police officers - 3/26/09 - San Francisco News - abc7news.com (http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/east_bay&id=6728974)

Next time an officer has an itchy trigger finger - maybe these thugs should share some of the blame.

Those people are ignorant or might be tired of the nonsense they receive out there.

[JPhillips]

They pissed him off and he was going to make sure they understood who was the big dog.

[DanGarion]

I think that leads to him getting the benefit of the doubt. And stil, my problem isn't with the initial stop. the problem is with him being detained for os long to check insurance even after the guy's story was being verified. I'm baffled as to how anyone thinks that's reasonable.

Every so often we have idiots around here that are driving down the freeway with their emergency/hazard lights on. Honestly it makes no sense why you would use those in any instance unless you are stopped on the side of the road or if you are trying to pull over due to your car having an issue. If you are driving down the road with them on you look like an idiot, especially for no reason.

In addition we have people driving down the freeways here with hazards on driving 15-20 MPH in the slow lane. WTF are you on the freeway if you can't go the speed of traffic, you are safer on the streets.

There are many people that don't understand when is a proper time to use your hazard lights.

In the California Drivers Handbook the only mention of emergency/hazard lights is to signal other drivers of a possible hazard ahead (such as an accident) or if you are pulled to the size of the road.

[larrymcg421]

The cop was dealing with a group of multiple people in the car, some of whom got out and tried to leave the scene immediately. When those two people head in and start shooting the place up, everyone would be calling for the cop's head for letting them get away.

Except he did let them get away and it doesn't sound like he even made an attempt to stop the others, so I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. You seem to want to continue arguing about the initial detention. Why is that? How many times do I have to say that the problem isn't with the initial detention, but the prolonged detention after a nurse AND a police officer told him the guy was legit and asked him to let him go. Are you defaulting on that point? Because you don't seem to want to address it.

[gstelmack]

So my question is, if he's willing to let the women go, not call in backup, not threaten to stop them, etc, why does he then choose to go all high and mighty on the other two even after nurses and another cop both come out to verify the story?

On the tape, he does try to get them to stop and is requesting help over the radio, but he can't handle all 3 on his own. And Moates is arguing with him almost immediately, including telling the cop to go find his insurance himself.

Seriously, the first 3 minutes of that tape sets up everything that comes after. The cop has to be nervous and stressed, and the rest of the overreaction comes from that.

Sure, the cop may have overreacted and held him longer than he needed to, but you have to put a lot of blame on Moates and the people with him for how they handled the start of it.

[gstelmack]

Except he did let them get away and it doesn't sound like he even made an attempt to stop the others, so I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. You seem to want to continue arguing about the initial detention. Why is that? How many times do I have to say that the problem isn't with the initial detention, but the prolonged detention after a nurse AND a police officer told him the guy was legit and asked him to let him go. Are you defaulting on that point? Because you don't seem to want to address it.

The initial detention sets the tone. Any traffic stop is a stressful situation for a policeman, and when the people react like this it just ratchets it up. How lucid are you after, say, being in a moderate traffic wreck, or having something else stressful hit?

Another way to put it from my point of view is why is everyone glossing over the initial reaction of Moates and the women with him?

And he tells the other two women a couple of times to get back in the car, and the younger one is yelling at him and waving her arms. A lone police officer can't handle all 3 at once.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Why, when the nurses came out to validate the story, wouldn't he at least let him go and deal with this after she passed?

[JediKooter]

Lovelle Mixon was a waste to humanity. His DNA was linked to the rape of a 12 year old girl the day before he killed those police officers.

[larrymcg421]

Watched the first 3 minutes or so of the video. Let me see:

1) Moates runs for a full minute after the cop turns on the lights and chases him, including a "rolling stop" through a stop sign with the cop right behind him, all the way to a parking place.

2) Woman jumps out and immediately heads for the hospital. Cop tells her to get back in the car, she argues. Other woman gets out, grabs her while she's yelling and pointing at the cop, and the two head for the front door while Moates gets out and walks toward the cop car.

3) Moates argues with the cop about the license and insurance.

3 strikes and you're out. He pulls over right away and explains to the cop, he's got a much better shot of making it in and getting cooperation like EaglesFan27 mentions. Run, yell at the cop, and have two people walk away after being told to stay in the car, I'm not surprised the cop is nervous. Again, routine traffic stop in Oakland leads to four dead officers. I'd be nervous, too.

Okay, so your story makes the cop seem worse. If he's nervous and doesn't do anything about th epeople who ran into the hospital, but focuses ont he people who stayed behind asking htem about insurance, then he DEFINITELY deserves to be out of a job.

[Karlifornia]

The police die in the line of duty. There tons of great cops in the world. Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

These people are trying to see a loved one in their final moments of life. Do you think you might be a little rattled yourself?

I don't want a cop that tells me he "can screw me over". Like someone said upthread, he's there to protect and serve. He went beyond protecting himself or other citizens. And he failed to serve. This was a once in a lifetime circumstance for this Moats guy. If does the same thing running late to a job interview or some bullshit, then fine, give him 10 tickets.

You know how people always give cops excuses for breaking the law, to try to garner empathy? This one was actually the truth! And it was corroborated by nurses and other police officers! And he still gave him a ticket! How does that pass the smell test of human decency at all? If this is how it's gonna be, then just start working on robots to replace cops.

[molson]

No, those peopple deserve to have their asses kicked. But any officer that kills a citizen in the future because of these clowns' behavior is even more of a thug than they are.

If it was concious, then definitely. I didn't mean to condone any "revenge" action by anyone - I was just referring to the fear and split-second reactions such things can cause.

Just as black citizens may react differently around white cops becaue of the publicity of certain news stories, so might white cops have an added fear around black citizens they come in contact with - knowing how many of them would celebrate their death.

So just like bad cops are bad beyond their crime for the collateral effects their bad acts cause, so are bad citizens bad beyond their actions against cops.

This cop sounds like he was a jerk (no cop should ever say "I can screw you over" - if that's really on the video, that alone is worthy of discipline). Front page status on ESPN.com though tells me people are just looking to pick fights and be mad.

[Radii]

Man, I understand what gstelmack is saying, but around the 13:30 mark when the nurse comes out and says "listen the mother is dying right now" and the cop still decides he has to admonish the driver multiple times before letting him run into the hospital... I don't see any reason for the officer to be disciplined officially or anything, but that just hurts to watch. The first 4 or 5 minutes is a high stress situation and its all understandable on both sides. But the end is just awful. Again I'm sure professionally there's nothing wrong with this, but watching the end just makes me extremely upset.

[gstelmack]

This was a misunderstanding on both sides as these things often are.

From my first post in this thread. That's the point I'm trying to make. Everyone wants to focus on the later events and what the cop did, but no one wants to put any blame on Moates for how he and his passengers got this thing rolling. They have to take some responsibility. I mean, come on, telling the cop to go find the insurance himself? How is this going to have a good ending?

Part of what annoys me is both articles quoted in here skip over that specific quote from Moates, which helps build the early agitation over the cop.

[larrymcg421]

From my first post in this thread. That's the point I'm trying to make. Everyone wants to focus on the later events and what the cop did, but no one wants to put any blame on Moates for how he and his passengers got this thing rolling. They have to take some responsibility. I mean, come on, telling the cop to go find the insurance himself? How is this going to have a good ending?

Part of what annoys me is both articles quoted in here skip over that specific quote from Moates, which helps build the early agitation over the cop.

I think it probably comes down to people expecting more from police officers than from someone whose relative is literally minutes away from dying.

[larrymcg421]

People LOVE the jerk cop stories. It just sets something off.

Four murdered cops in Oakland doesn't arise the same kind of passion.

We often talk about stuff that isn't the very worst thing possible. It would be a pretty borinbg board if we restricted ourselves to that. I think it's a safe bet that everyone here thinks the person who killed those police officers isn evil scumbag. If you want to have a discussion of it because you don't think it gets enough attention, maybe you should start a thread about it. But it's silly to say we can't be upset about this because something else happened that is much worse.

[molson]

I think it probably comes down to people expecting more from police officers than from someone whose relative is literally minutes away from dying.

That's probably reasonable to expect more from the officer, but if you want to make sure you're with that dying relative - don't break laws and mouth off at cops. The moral validation you get from the community afterwards probably isn't worth what you lost. (though I think to some people, it actually might be). I think it makes someone feel energized and "alive" when you feel you have moral superiority to someone in authority.

[molson]

We often talk about stuff that isn't the very worst thing possible. It would be a pretty borinbg board if we restricted ourselves to that. I think it's a safe bet that everyone here thinks the person who killed those police officers isn evil scumbag. If you want to have a discussion of it because you don't think it gets enough attention, maybe you should start a thread about it. But it's silly to say we can't be upset about this because something else happened that is much worse.

That's true, and I think when I said that, I had an expectation that this thread would go in a different direction.

[Pyser]

is not ok to break the law (speed, run reds when its safe) when your wife is in labor? i thought that was kind of accepted in a real emergency situation.

this qualifies as one to me.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Not just insurance. Arrest warrants, too.

In my experience, checking for outstanding warrants is routine procedure on every traffic stop. It is here in Georgia at least, has been as far back as I can remember, at least 25 years or so.

[molson]

In my experience, checking for outstanding warrants is routine procedure on every traffic stop. It is here in Georgia at least, has been as far back as I can remember, at least 25 years or so.

Stopping someone is a car is pretty much the only way anyone with an arrest warrant is ever arrested, so police departments do have to be pretty aggressive with checking people out when they have the chance.

[Fighter of Foo]

That's probably reasonable to expect more from the officer, but if you want to make sure you're with that dying relative - don't break laws and mouth off at cops. The moral validation you get from the community afterwards probably isn't worth what you lost. (though I think to some people, it actually might be). I think it makes someone feel energized and "alive" when you feel you have moral superiority to someone in authority.

How about if you want to make sure you're with a dying relative, get there as quickly as possible.

[molson]

How about if you want to make sure you're with a dying relative, get there as quickly as possible.

Let's see - with your way, he missed about 10-15 minutes, with my suggestion, he would have lost about 30 seconds, if that.

He took a risk (again, not just with time, but with community safety), made it worse by mouthing off, and lost.

The officer discipline is a seperate issue

[RainMaker]

Cop is a cocksucker on a power trip. It was an emergency situation and any reasonable cop would have let it go based on the situation. Even if he was just making sure, after the first nurse came out he should have let him go. The guy should be fired. Time to get rid of these scumbags.

[Tigercat]

Sure, the cop may have overreacted and held him longer than he needed to, but you have to put a lot of blame on Moates and the people with him for how they handled the start of it.

Cop acted out of line because he wanted to be an asshole after being put out by the family, the family acted out of love and concern for a relative about to die any second. Big difference, especially when the cop is the one who is paid to act professional and for the interest of all.

[Fighter of Foo]

Let's see - with your way, he missed about 10-15 minutes, with my suggestion, he would have lost about 30 seconds, if that.


When has a traffic stop ever taken 30 seconds? That's bullshit. You're telling me that the same cop who didn't believe Moats's story at the hospital would believe it at a traffic stop. No, no way.

[larrymcg421]

Stopping someone is a car is pretty much the only way anyone with an arrest warrant is ever arrested, so police departments do have to be pretty aggressive with checking people out when they have the chance.

Again, he could have checked the warrant/insurance/everything while the guy was looking after his mother in law.

[DanGarion]

is not ok to break the law (speed, run reds when its safe) when your wife is in labor? i thought that was kind of accepted in a real emergency situation.

this qualifies as one to me.

If it was that much of an emergency you should call 911 and have an ambulance take her...

[DanGarion]

Let's see - with your way, he missed about 10-15 minutes, with my suggestion, he would have lost about 30 seconds, if that.

He took a risk (again, not just with time, but with community safety), made it worse by mouthing off, and lost.

The officer discipline is a seperate issue

Of course we don't know how many other risks and lives he put in danger during the rest of his drive to the hospital. If they had killed someone on the way we would be talking about another Dante Stallworth incident...

Not to mention, how about if the cop pulled him over miles from the hospital... Then what is he supposed to do?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Again, he could have checked the warrant/insurance/everything while the guy was looking after his mother in law.

And risk having a desperate to elude capture suspect (since they would know the warrant would be discovered) loose in a hospital? Uh huh, been through lockdowns in hospitals before, that option doesn't fly. Last week we just had a knife wielding would-be carjacker (victim fought him off) try to escape by running across the street into a hospital but luckily ran right into an off-duty cop who stopped him. Next to a school, a hospital is about the last place on earth I want a suspect running loose.

[larrymcg421]

And risk having a desperate to elude capture suspect (since they would know the warrant would be discovered) loose in a hospital? Uh huh, been through lockdowns in hospitals before, that option doesn't fly. Last week we just had a knife wielding would-be carjacker (victim fought him off) try to escape by running across the street into a hospital but luckily ran right into an off-duty cop who stopped him. Next to a school, a hospital is about the last place on earth I want a suspect running loose.

Nice try, but there were two people (a nurse and a police officer) who not only vouched for him, but could have escorted him up to the room.

[JPhillips]

It isn't that hard to solve. The officer accompanies Moates inside, finds his story to be accurate, leaves him and proceeds to write the ticket and check for outstanding warrants, comes back in an hour and delivers the ticket.

It's important to remember that most cops wouldn't have handled it this way. The cops in my extended family wouldn't agree with the power trip that guy was on. Ask ten cops and I bet nine would tell you this officer handled the situation poorly.

[MJ4H]

The most telling thing here is that his superiors say it was handled incorrectly. I don't think you can argue with that.

[RedKingGold]

I'm pretty much with PFT here:

Report: Powell Drew Gun On Moats’ Wife (http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/03/26/report-powell-drew-gun-on-moats-wife/)

Posted by Mike Florio on March 26, 2009, 5:36 p.m. EDT
Lost in the brouhaha that has erupted regarding the shameful (in our opinion) incident that unfolded between Dallas police officer Robert Powell and Texans running back Ryan <NOBR id=itxt_nobr_0_0 style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 100%">Moatshttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/mag-glass_10x10.gif</NOBR> (http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/03/26/report-powell-drew-gun-on-moats-wife/#) is a report that Powell drew his gun on Moats’ wife (http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa090325_mo_detained.6f8a23c1.html).

Apparently, the weapon was pulled at the outset of the confrontation, when Moats’ wife tried to rush inside the nearby hospital.

“Get in there,” Powell said. “Let me see your hands. Get in there. Put your hands on the car.”

It should have been obvious to anyone with an ounce of common sense that a car with its hazard lights flashing that ran a red light and stopped in the parking lot of a hospital contains people who for whatever reason need to get inside said hospital.

This isn’t about Powell’s subsequent perception, right or wrong, that Moats had a bad attitude. From the moment Powell got out of the car, he was wired for a confrontation. Otherwise, he would have let Moats’ wife head to the hospital without incident.

The fact that Powell opted not to shoot her when she decided to ignore him proves that Powell knew what was happening. And yet he still opted to act like a royal ass.

We realize some are concerned that criticism of police officers might undermine their ability to perform their jobs effectively. We prefer to believe that criticism of those in authority is appropriate, when deserved. Otherwise, Powell and people like him will continue to make the darkest moments of people’s lives unnecessarily darker.

[molson]

When has a traffic stop ever taken 30 seconds? That's bullshit. You're telling me that the same cop who didn't believe Moats's story at the hospital would believe it at a traffic stop. No, no way.

The red stop light would have delayed him 30 seconds (rough estimate - it could have been 5 seconds). You're assuming he had no choice but to break the law. I'm saying that he followed the law, he would have gotten to be with his mother-in-law. Any traffic stop, as you point out, would have delayed him far longer than that. Any traffic stop would have cost him the chance to be with his mother-in-law, since we're talking about seconds, apparetnly.

I think, just as a general rule, if you're in a hurry, speeding and breaking traffic laws don't save you the time that they're going to cost you, and the risk you thrust upon everyone else.

These are a pretty extraodinary circumstances - what are the odds she would have died in those 5 minutes? That's really why this story is such a big deal. I'm sure 99% of medical "emergencies" are greatly exagerated by the lawbreakers when these kind of situations come up.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Nice try, but there were two people (a nurse and a police officer) who not only vouched for him, but could have escorted him up to the room.

The nurse is irrelevant to my point however, she has no way of knowing whether there's an outstanding warrant or not. And I'm not clear on whether the second cop knew or not.

But my point was more in a general sense, that you don't just let a suspect go roaming through a hospital on their say so nor the well intentioned word of people who may not know anything definitive about them either.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The most telling thing here is that his superiors say it was handled incorrectly. I don't think you can argue with that.

Umm, not that superiors have ever been influenced by political correctness or public relations.

I'm not particular inclined to argue that he didn't make a mistake in his comment about being able to screw the suspect over (although that's damning him for being brutally honest) but I don't see a lot else here that doesn't come back to Moates behavior.

[jeff061]

When I was younger I had no problems with cops. But over the last several years the vast majority I have dealt with are empty headed insecure blowhards like the guy in this article. I'm not just talking about traffic stops. I've done quite a bit of consulting in police departments. In a social setting they are frat boys that walk around high fiving and telling stories about how pissed off they got someone at them.

Maybe it's just the Boston area cops, they were much better in New Hampshire.

People who need respect and power but are incapable of getting it on their own become cops. Takes special character to fit both of those requirements.

[RainMaker]

The nurse is irrelevant to my point however, she has no way of knowing whether there's an outstanding warrant or not. And I'm not clear on whether the second cop knew or not.

But my point was more in a general sense, that you don't just let a suspect go roaming through a hospital on their say so nor the well intentioned word of people who may not know anything definitive about them either.

Maybe the nurses were in on the conspiracy to help this hardened criminal escape the tortures of receiving a $50 ticket for disobeying a traffic light.

[larrymcg421]

This lady's mom is DYING. I find it amazing that people here cannot understand how someone might be feeling in that case. The lady said, "My mom is dying. Don't you understand?" I doubt I'd be nearly as calm as she was if my mom was dying. And I doubt I'd be very calm if an officer pulled a gun on my grief stricken wife, but then starts to hassle me about insurance. To me, it is incredibly baffling the kind of behavior that some of you are expecting from them, considering what they were going through. I honestly do not understand that at all.

[MJ4H]

Umm, not that superiors have ever been influenced by political correctness or public relations.



Well except for the fact that it is basically pretty clear to most people that the superiors are right in this case.

[DanGarion]

This lady's mom is DYING. I find it amazing that people here cannot understand how someone might be feeling in that case. The lady said, "My mom is dying. Don't you understand?" I doubt I'd be nearly as calm as she was if my mom was dying. And I doubt I'd be very calm if an officer pulled a gun on my grief stricken wife, but then starts to hassle me about insurance. To me, it is incredibly baffling the kind of behavior that some of you are expecting from them, considering what they were going through. I honestly do not understand that at all.
The way I look at it is this was. The same people that cry foul because he detained him for this, would probably for the most part be the same people that cry foul if the the whole story was a lie and he shot up the hospital or killed someone inside it. Not all of them, just most of them.

I still stand beside the cop was a jerk and handled things wrong, but as a citizen we also have to take some responsibility and try to act as calm as possible to protect all those around us including ourselves.

[SackAttack]

This lady's mom is DYING. I find it amazing that people here cannot understand how someone might be feeling in that case. The lady said, "My mom is dying. Don't you understand?" I doubt I'd be nearly as calm as she was if my mom was dying. And I doubt I'd be very calm if an officer pulled a gun on my grief stricken wife, but then starts to hassle me about insurance. To me, it is incredibly baffling the kind of behavior that some of you are expecting from them, considering what they were going through. I honestly do not understand that at all.

Now, THAT starts to get past 'extended unpaid vacation' into 'lose your job' territory.

I was taught that you don't pull a gun you aren't willing to use. If that's not a situation where deadly force, or the threat of deadly force, is a justifiable one, he needs to be gone.

[MJ4H]

No doubt both sides have some responsibility in this.

[MJ4H]

Now, THAT starts to get past 'extended unpaid vacation' into 'lose your job' territory.

I was taught that you don't pull a gun you aren't willing to use. If that's not a situation where deadly force, or the threat of deadly force, is a justifiable one, he needs to be gone.

This disturbs me, unless you were a police officer or something. I mean, I, for one, have never been taught anything about how to pull a gun on someone? Did I just grow up in a soft neighborhood or something?

[molson]

This lady's mom is DYING. I find it amazing that people here cannot understand how someone might be feeling in that case. The lady said, "My mom is dying. Don't you understand?" I doubt I'd be nearly as calm as she was if my mom was dying. And I doubt I'd be very calm if an officer pulled a gun on my grief stricken wife, but then starts to hassle me about insurance. To me, it is incredibly baffling the kind of behavior that some of you are expecting from them, considering what they were going through. I honestly do not understand that at all.

Nobody's saying they should be locked up or anything.

I'm sure the officer understood "SHE'S DYING!!!" as, "We have a sick relative in the hopital". Not that she was going to be dead in 90 seconds. I'm not sure exactly how much precise information the nurse was able to provide, but by that point, most of the time had passed.

The cop should say he's sorry and we should all move on.

If you go through life with the expectation that officers, and the rest of humanity, are 100% perfect and that you've been violated every time it drops below that, you're risking feeling violated. If you get pulled over when you were in a hurry, you should apologize for breaking the law, calmly tell the officer what the deal is, and request that things move along as fast as possible, you'll be golden 99.9% of the time. If you wave your arms and yell and mouth off, they will assume you're a liar, because their experiences have taught them that.

[DanGarion]

This disturbs me, unless you were a police officer or something. I mean, I, for one, have never been taught anything about how to pull a gun on someone? Did I just grow up in a soft neighborhood or something?
Yeah they teach everyone that grows up in CA basic police tactics... ;)

[JPhillips]

I'm not sure anyone is arguing that Moates shouldn't have been stopped. I'm fine with stopping him, running his license and giving him a citation. However, I don't see how you can watch the cop lecture Moates about his attitude knowing that a nurse just said the woman was going to die any second and not see him as a first rate asshole.

[DanGarion]

I'm not sure anyone is arguing that Moates shouldn't have been stopped. I'm fine with stopping him, running his license and giving him a citation. However, I don't see how you can watch the cop lecture Moates about his attitude knowing that a nurse just said the woman was going to die any second and not see him as a first rate asshole.

I think everyone agrees with the last part of your last sentence. ;)

[JonInMiddleGA]

I mean, I, for one, have never been taught anything about how to pull a gun on someone? Did I just grow up in a soft neighborhood or something?

Seriously? That must have been a very soft neighborhood.

Just off the top of my head ...

-- Don't pull a gun if you aren't willing to use it.
-- Don't point a gun at anything you aren't planning to shoot.
-- Proper gun control means hitting what you aim at.
-- Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice just to be sure.
-- Aim for center mass, you're most likely to hit something that way
-- EVERY gun you pick up is loaded until you prove otherwise (first thing about guns I taught my son)
-- "Be sure to drag 'em inside", which has been replaced for practical reasons by "make sure you know how the local cops feel about dragging them inside".

And that's just the obvious ones I can think of at the moment.

[RainMaker]

The way I look at it is this was. The same people that cry foul because he detained him for this, would probably for the most part be the same people that cry foul if the the whole story was a lie and he shot up the hospital or killed someone inside it. Not all of them, just most of them.

Running a red light is hardly a reason to suspect someone is going to run into a hospital to murder someone. Especially when he is with his wife and there are nurses telling the cops his mother is dying.

[SackAttack]

This disturbs me, unless you were a police officer or something. I mean, I, for one, have never been taught anything about how to pull a gun on someone? Did I just grow up in a soft neighborhood or something?

Couple of gun enthusiasts in the family. When I was younger, I went shooting with my uncle, and before he'd let me use the gun, he drilled a few things into my head.

Treat every gun as if it's loaded, even if you're certain it's not.

Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to use the weapon.

Don't put yourself in a situation where you need to use a gun, but if you're in such a situation, don't draw a weapon you aren't willing to use. If the other guy is armed, it's a damn good way to get yourself killed.

[SackAttack]

Seriously? That must have been a very soft neighborhood.

Just off the top of my head ...

-- Don't pull a gun if you aren't willing to use it.
-- Don't point a gun at anything you aren't planning to shoot.
-- Proper gun control means hitting what you aim at.
-- Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice just to be sure.
-- Aim for center mass, you're most likely to hit something that way
-- EVERY gun you pick up is loaded until you prove otherwise (first thing about guns I taught my son)
-- "Be sure to drag 'em inside", which has been replaced for practical reasons by "make sure you know how the local cops feel about dragging them inside".

And that's just the obvious ones I can think of at the moment.

Not ALL of what Jon said, but numbers 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6 - yeah, those (or close enough as makes no difference), I remember hearing in my uncle's lecture 20-odd years ago.

[MJ4H]

I feel like Noop all of a sudden.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Not ALL of what Jon said, but numbers 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6 - yeah, those (or close enough as makes no difference), I remember hearing in my uncle's lecture 20-odd years ago.

Good to know that some things are pretty universal. If you knew #3 then I'm a little surprised you didn't have some local variation on #7. And of course #4 (shoot twice) applies largely to people not animals, since the second shot usually not a clear one could damage the hide or the meat.

And I don't even hunt ;)

[larrymcg421]

Nobody's saying they should be locked up or anything.

Right, but there's lots of criticism as to how they acted, and I have a hard time believing that most people in this thread would have acted differently in the same situation.

I'm sure the officer understood "SHE'S DYING!!!" as, "We have a sick relative in the hopital". Not that she was going to be dead in 90 seconds. I'm not sure exactly how much precise information the nurse was able to provide, but by that point, most of the time had passed.

The nurse said they were coding her for the third time, and the officer still didn't let him go. Then the nurse comes back with a police officer restating the urgency, and the guy STILL being an asshole - "Okay I'm just finishing up."

The cop should say he's sorry and we should all move on.

If you go through life with the expectation that officers, and the rest of humanity, are 100% perfect and that you've been violated every time it drops below that, you're risking feeling violated. If you get pulled over when you were in a hurry, you should apologize for breaking the law, calmly tell the officer what the deal is, and request that things move along as fast as possible, you'll be golden 99.9% of the time. If you wave your arms and yell and mouth off, they will assume you're a liar, because their experiences have taught them that.

Big difference between being in a big hurry and "mom dying." Sorry, but I just don't believe most people in this thread would react as calmly as you're expecting the Moats' to have acted in this situation. I don't buy that at all. I'd be more likely to believe that MBBF wants to engage in nonpartisan debate of issues than that.

[DanGarion]

Running a red light is hardly a reason to suspect someone is going to run into a hospital to murder someone. Especially when he is with his wife and there are nurses telling the cops his mother is dying.
I agree, but regardless the officers job is to assess the situation, not just take someones word no question.

[RainMaker]

I agree, but regardless the officers job is to assess the situation, not just take someones word no question.

And if his assesment was that this was a dangerous situation that required the drawing of his firearm and keeping Moats for that long, he is too stupid to be a police officer. Let him flip burgers where his intellect is more suited for.

[larrymcg421]

I agree, but regardless the officers job is to assess the situation, not just take someones word no question.

That is his job, and I think many of us feel he assessed the situation very poorly. And then after poorly assessing the situation, he acted like an asshole.

I mean - "hazard lights, running a red light, pulling into a hospital by the ER". It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to read this situation properly. And that doesn't mean you don't still stop them, but it does mean perhaps you should approach the situation differently instead of threatening to shoot the lady who says her mom is dying.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Am I the only person left on earth who knows that if you exit a vehicle when an officer tells you to remain inside that a gun is likely to be drawn? And that a drawn gun is exponentially more likely to cause serious damage than one that's holstered?

MJ4H not knowing some of the old standbys about guns is one thing that but people not knowing that "stay in the car" means stay ... in ... the ... car... can get your ass shot off. And that's your own fault if it happens.

[Radii]

This disturbs me, unless you were a police officer or something. I mean, I, for one, have never been taught anything about how to pull a gun on someone? Did I just grow up in a soft neighborhood or something?

don't worry, i'm just as sheltered as you are, and i'm pretty much perfectly fine with this fact.

[RainMaker]

Am I the only person left on earth who knows that if you exit a vehicle when an officer tells you to remain inside that a gun is likely to be drawn? And that a drawn gun is exponentially more likely to cause serious damage than one that's holstered?

MJ4H not knowing some of the old standbys about guns is one thing that but people not knowing that "stay in the car" means stay ... in ... the ... car... can get your ass shot off. And that's your own fault if it happens.

I'm sure the community would have blamed the Moats for being unarmed and shot for running into a hospital to see their Mother before she died.

[Radii]

And if his assesment was that this was a dangerous situation that required the drawing of his firearm and keeping Moats for that long, he is too stupid to be a police officer. Let him flip burgers where his intellect is more suited for.

This is a ridiculous statement. Cop turns on his lights for a red light stop, car goes multiple blocks further, running stop signs going to its destination. Before the cop approaches the car, multiple extremely agitated people get out of the car and start yelling.

Anyone who doesn't assess that as a dangerous situation is putting his life at great risk.

The level to which the outcome is clouding your judgment is astounding to me.

[RainMaker]

This disturbs me, unless you were a police officer or something. I mean, I, for one, have never been taught anything about how to pull a gun on someone? Did I just grow up in a soft neighborhood or something?

I wouldn't say soft. Some neighborhoods don't need guns to handle their disputes.

[jeff061]

MJ4H not knowing some of the old standbys about guns is one thing that but people not knowing that "stay in the car" means stay ... in ... the ... car... can get your ass shot off. And that's your own fault if it happens.
As has been stated, several times, I doubt this woman was thinking logically. Your mom can only die once. I imagine it can be traumatic.

Idiot cop should take this into account as she runs towards the fucking hospital door. Police offers are trained and paid professionals. Anyone can point a gun at someone without any thought of the situation and environment. I'd like actual police officers to be held to a higher standard than "monkey with a gun".

[MJ4H]

Am I the only person left on earth who knows that if you exit a vehicle when an officer tells you to remain inside that a gun is likely to be drawn? And that a drawn gun is exponentially more likely to cause serious damage than one that's holstered?

MJ4H not knowing some of the old standbys about guns is one thing that but people not knowing that "stay in the car" means stay ... in ... the ... car... can get your ass shot off. And that's your own fault if it happens.

To be fair, I've heard most of that stuff, I was just making a little bit of fun of being taken aside and instructed about how to pull a gun on someone by a family member.

[RainMaker]

This is a ridiculous statement. Cop turns on his lights for a red light stop, car goes multiple blocks further, running stop signs going to its destination. Before the cop approaches the car, multiple extremely agitated people get out of the car and start yelling.

Anyone who doesn't assess that as a dangerous situation is putting his life at great risk.

The level to which the outcome is clouding your judgment is astounding to me.

It would take 30 seconds to realize that this wasn't a dangerous situation and to let them go.

[Radii]

Am I the only person left on earth who knows that if you exit a vehicle when an officer tells you to remain inside that a gun is likely to be drawn? And that a drawn gun is exponentially more likely to cause serious damage than one that's holstered?


Yup. Seems extremely obvious to me.

[DanGarion]

That is his job, and I think many of us feel he assessed the situation very poorly. And then after poorly assessing the situation, he acted like an asshole.

I mean - "hazard lights, running a red light, pulling into a hospital by the ER". It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to read this situation properly. And that doesn't mean you don't still stop them, but it does mean perhaps you should approach the situation differently instead of threatening to shoot the lady who says her mom is dying.

And I've been saying since my first post...

[JonInMiddleGA]

To be fair, I've heard most of that stuff, I was just making a little bit of fun of being taken aside and instructed about how to pull a gun on someone by a family member.

Family members? Hell, I've gone over those things with family members, friends, cops, even a few enemies.

[molson]

It would take 30 seconds to realize that this wasn't a dangerous situation and to let them go.

Or less than 30 seconds to wait at a red light and skip all this drama.

I'm sure the officer would have done it differently if he had a chance. I think the driver + passenger also would have done things differently.

[Radii]

It would take 30 seconds to realize that this wasn't a dangerous situation and to let them go.

Did you watch the video, or just read the article? You're either uninformed or delusional. Seriously, watch the first 3 minutes of the video. Pretend you don't know the outcome or anything at all. How often does a traffic stop happen this way and have no further illegal activity aside from running the red light have occured? I am going to guess almost never.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I think the driver + passenger also would have done things differently.

Given the publicity whoring and calls for the cop's job, I don't really believe that's the case at all. They delusionally seem to think they were totally faultless here.

[molson]

Given the publicity whoring and calls for the cop's job, I don't really believe that's the case at all. They delusionally seem to think they were totally faultless here.

I was thinking that when I was typing, but decided to give them the benefit of the doubt.

But I think you're right. I think at this point, getting the cop fired is the most important thing in the world. Maybe a normal human reaction - replacing grief with illogical anger.

[jeff061]

Or less than 30 seconds to wait at a red light and skip all this drama.

Mother dying, not thinking logically, just rushing to get there, ect. Your argument is silly and unrealistic. 30 seconds is an eternity in that situation. They are not paid or trained like cops to handle these situations.

I'm sure if they had the cool mind set of distant and uninvolved message board posters, they probably wouldn't have run it.

[larrymcg421]

I say hooray to he proud heroes who can remain upright citizens and completely calm when their relative is minutes away from dying. You all are truly heroes. I salute you.

[SackAttack]

Good to know that some things are pretty universal. If you knew #3 then I'm a little surprised you didn't have some local variation on #7. And of course #4 (shoot twice) applies largely to people not animals, since the second shot usually not a clear one could damage the hide or the meat.

And I don't even hunt ;)

#4 makes perfect sense, of course, but that's the sort of thing that gets included in the lecture when you're shooting at a police range, or facsimile thereof, not old coffee cans when you're 9 years old or whatever. ;)

#7, eh, there might've been a local variation, but there's a lot of "guy" things in which I never really took a huge interest as a kid. Construction, auto repair, guns (beyond that one time taking potshots at a tin can with a rifle). Might they have said it? Sure. Do I remember anybody saying such a thing? Nope. Never went back to the range after that one time, either.

I remember the stuff that relates to 'surefire ways to get your (or somebody else's) ass killed,' but not much really about what to do after said ass has been dispatched. ;)

[Radii]

I say hooray to he proud heroes who can remain upright citizens and completely calm when their relative is minutes away from dying. You all are truly heroes. I salute you.


Its a stressful situation, and as molson has pointed out countless times, no one is suggesting that the family should have been shot, arrested, or anything more than possibly getting a ticket.

There's a MASSIVE difference in saying "shitty situation, that sucks" and as rainmaker said earlier that the cop is a cocksucker who shouldn't have a job. BIG difference.

[Noop]

Being a cop I imagine is not an easy job. I am not their biggest fans but I think some of you are overreacting.

[jeff061]

Being a cop I imagine is not an easy job. I am not their biggest fans but I think some of you are overreacting.

No it's not. I couldn't handle it. That's why any idiot shouldn't be allowed to be one.

[RainMaker]

Did you watch the video, or just read the article? You're either uninformed or delusional. Seriously, watch the first 3 minutes of the video. Pretend you don't know the outcome or anything at all. How often does a traffic stop happen this way and have no further illegal activity aside from running the red light have occured? I am going to guess almost never.

I watched the video. The lady looks to be explaining to the cop that her Mother is dying. They are right next to the entrance to the Emergency Room. I know most cops aren't Rhodes scholars, but this looks fairly self explanatory.

I'll give him some leeway on the gun. But it's clear after 30 seconds that this was not a dangerous situation. The threats made by the cop show what his true intentions were.

[jeff061]

There's a MASSIVE difference in saying "shitty situation, that sucks" and as rainmaker said earlier that the cop is a cocksucker who shouldn't have a job. BIG difference.

Even his peers are saying he screwed up. You need to be high up on the ineptitude scale for that to happen.

[larrymcg421]

Its a stressful situation, and as molson has pointed out countless times, no one is suggesting that the family should have been shot, arrested, or anything more than possibly getting a ticket.

There's a MASSIVE difference in saying "shitty situation for everyone, that sucks" and as rainmaker said earlier that the cop is a cocksucker who shouldn't have a job. BIG difference.

Again, though, I'm not questioning the officer for stopping them (although I think he did a poor job of reading the situation) or for even giving them a ticket. But the judgment he showed in handling this after the initial stop makes me think he is not fit to be a police officer.

[Noop]

No it's not. I couldn't handle it. That's why any idiot shouldn't be allowed to be one.

Well someone has to do it and those who do it are putting themselves at risk to serve the general public. I think there are more idiots per capita then there are bad cops.

* I repeat I am typically not a fan of police in general.

[molson]

Its a stressful situation, and as molson has pointed out countless times, no one is suggesting that the family should have been shot, arrested, or anything more than possibly getting a ticket.

There's a MASSIVE difference in saying "shitty situation, that sucks" and as rainmaker said earlier that the cop is a cocksucker who shouldn't have a job. BIG difference.

I think people always want to blame someone. And ya, I wasn't blaming the driver, I'm just saying there's plenty of things he could have done differently as well.

And of course, it could have also been far worse. The driver was smart not to run into the hospital, and he was at least somewhat composed. The officer allowed the two women to go inside.

Shitty situation. Expecting perfection on all sides of a shitty situation is just unreasonable, it's not going to happen.

[RainMaker]

Its a stressful situation, and as molson has pointed out countless times, no one is suggesting that the family should have been shot, arrested, or anything more than possibly getting a ticket.

There's a MASSIVE difference in saying "shitty situation, that sucks" and as rainmaker said earlier that the cop is a cocksucker who shouldn't have a job. BIG difference.

Tell me the reason for telling him he could "screw him over" and "take him to jail for running a red light".

[molson]

Tell me the reason for telling him he could "screw him over" and "take him to jail for running a red light".

Nobody's defended that.

[larrymcg421]

I think people always want to blame someone. And ya, I wasn't blaming the driver, I'm just saying there's plenty of things he could have done differently as well.

And of course, it could have also been far worse. The driver was smart not to run into the hospital, and he was at least somewhat composed. The officer allowed the two women to go inside.

Shitty situation. Expecting perfection on all sides of a shitty situation is just unreasonable, it's not going to happen.

I'm not expecting perfection. I do expect more from the cops than the family in this situation, but if the cop had at least let the guy go (or escort him in) after the nurse came down the first time, then at least his actions would make some sense.

[Noop]

Hindsight is always 20/20

[RainMaker]

Nobody's defended that.

Then what's the argument about here?

[larrymcg421]

Also, I think "the guy could have been dangerous" argument is a bit silly. The officer clearly doesn't think that, at least not after the first few seconds. He lets the guy walk around. There are other guys walking around near him. He doesn't pat the guy down or make him put his hands on the car. Later on in the video, the other cop asks about two other guys and if theyre allowed to leave. The response is, "I don't even know where he came from." I'm sure glad the officer is on top of this "dangerous" situation.

[molson]

I know most cops aren't Rhodes scholars, but this looks fairly self explanatory.


Hey, maybe cities should ONLY hire Rhodes Scholars as police officers!

[RainMaker]

Or less than 30 seconds to wait at a red light and skip all this drama.

I'm sure the officer would have done it differently if he had a chance. I think the driver + passenger also would have done things differently.

I don't know about that. I think a lot of us would run a red light in that situation. I think we'd expect that a competent officer would realize there was a reason for the traffic violation. Worst case scenario is you get a ticket. I don't think many of us would expect to be harrased outside the ER when our Mother is dying.

[larrymcg421]

Hey, maybe cities should ONLY hire Rhodes Scholars as police officers!

With the current job market, that might be an upward move for most Rhodes scholars.

[RainMaker]

Also, I think "the guy could have been dangerous" argument is a bit silly. The officer clearly doesn't think that, at least not after the first few seconds. He lets the guy walk around. There are other guys walking around near him. He doesn't pat the guy down or make him put his hands on the car. Later on in the video, the other cop asks about two other guys and if theyre allowed to leave. The response is, "I don't even know where he came from." I'm sure glad the officer is on top of this "dangerous" situation.

If the cop thought it was a dangerous situation there would have been massive backup and Moats would have been on the ground handcuffed.

[Raiders Army]

My brother is a cop and I can tell you that he gets on that power trip. I just don't understand it. "Shut your mouth! Shut your mouth!"

Professionalism was out the window at the point the cop said that.

Again, there's a big difference between reading the words and watching the video. I can put myself in their situation and the emotions they must be feeling. I thought Moats handled it quite well considering.

[molson]

If the cop thought it was a dangerous situation there would have been massive backup and Moats would have been on the ground handcuffed.

Edit: I might have taken your quote the wrong way.

Cops find themselves in dangerous situations without backup all the time.

I'm sure he didn't think this guy was going to run in and shoot up the hospital. Most likely, he was relying on his experience and training that people that act like that, at that time of night, have drugs in the car, or an outstanding warrant. He probably could have realized this was one of the exceptions, but it's very difficult for younger cops especially to go against procedure that like that.

[Radii]

Tell me the reason for telling him he could "screw him over" and "take him to jail for running a red light".

I'm not taking the cop's side against the family. He didn't act perfectly. I have said 2 or 3 times now that I was greatly offended by the cop's actions towards the end of the video, and you're absolutely right in that that was uncalled for.

But I am saying that both parties were put into a very, very high stress situation and things simply do not go perfectly in high stress situations. And, while its understandable why the family was under such stress, they are completely at fault for generating the high stress situation.


The cop should have handled the situation better. But to call him a cocksucker who deserves to be fired is just awful. To say that he should have figured out in 30 seconds the entire situation and resolved it perfectly based on what we know actually was happening is flawed at best.

[RainMaker]

You don't know much about law enforcement other than your general "anti-cop" stance.

Cops don't call for backup in dangerous situations? They let the suspects walk around un-cuffed? What police manual is this one in?

It's not an anti-cop stance, it's an anti-cop on a power trip stance.

[molson]

Cops don't call for backup in dangerous situations? They let the suspects walk around un-cuffed? What police manual is this one in?

It's not an anti-cop stance, it's an anti-cop on a power trip stance.

You were quick on the trigger before I had a chance to edit.

I took what you said to mean, "you can bet if the officer unreasonably thought he was in danger, he would have overreacted", which wasn't evident at all from what you actually typed, at second look.

[RainMaker]

I'm not taking the cop's side against the family. He didn't act perfectly. I have said 2 or 3 times now that I was greatly offended by the cop's actions towards the end of the video, and you're absolutely right in that that was uncalled for.

But I am saying that both parties were put into a very, very high stress situation and things simply do not go perfectly in high stress situations. And, while its understandable why the family was under such stress, they are completely at fault for generating the high stress situation.


The cop should have handled the situation better. But to call him a cocksucker who deserves to be fired is just awful. To say that he should have figured out in 30 seconds the entire situation and resolved it perfectly based on what we know actually was happening is flawed at best.

I am giving the cop a free pass on the beginning of the situation. Honestly I would be a little cautious too and probably draw my gun in situations like that.

My issue is with the power trip he went on after he assesed the situation. Threatening the guy over and over. I don't believe we should have cops like that on the street. These are people we trust with our lives and allow to make life altering decisions with firearms. He's clearly not in it to protect and serve, so I believe having a guy like that on the streets is a danger to all.

[Raiders Army]

To paraphrase Adam Corrolla in a podcast I was listening to today: "He's like a guy with a boullion cube at the Soup Kitchen."

[dawgfan]

I'm not expecting perfection. I do expect more from the cops than the family in this situation, but if the cop had at least let the guy go (or escort him in) after the nurse came down the first time, then at least his actions would make some sense.
QFT

[JonInMiddleGA]

He's clearly not in it to protect and serve, so I believe having a guy like that on the streets is a danger to all.

Not nearly as dangerous as not having him out there.

I've never met anyone with a badge & a gun who wasn't capable of having that same moment at some point in their career. Like most of the rest of us they're human & prone to better or worse reactions to different situations. And I say that having had the privilege of knowing some incredibly fine officers over the years, some truly amazing people.

Anecdotally one of those (without a doubt the best damn cop I ever saw) was murdered while making a routine traffic stop, another was killed by a shotgun blast from a concealed homeowner while walking up the driveway to serve a minor warrant on an otherwise peaceful Saturday morning. That sort of job environment brings a whole different level of stress than 99.9 percent of the rest of us have to deal with at work.

[Mustang]

I think the general sentiment around here is that at some point, the stressful situation and understanding what is going on has diminished. The officer has to realize this at some point especially at 13 minutes in when the nurse shows up. Yes, laws are laws, but there is any number of things that officer could have done to show some basic human decency after he has assessed the situation and determined that Moats was not a threat. Things like that coming out don't do the rest of the Dallas police force any favors in the court of public opinion.

[Chubby]

I'm not taking the cop's side against the family. He didn't act perfectly. I have said 2 or 3 times now that I was greatly offended by the cop's actions towards the end of the video, and you're absolutely right in that that was uncalled for.

But I am saying that both parties were put into a very, very high stress situation and things simply do not go perfectly in high stress situations. And, while its understandable why the family was under such stress, they are completely at fault for generating the high stress situation.


The cop should have handled the situation better. But to call him a cocksucker who deserves to be fired is just awful. To say that he should have figured out in 30 seconds the entire situation and resolved it perfectly based on what we know actually was happening is flawed at best.

You're right. How dare the family's mother in law be dying when this cop has other citizens to harass.

[DanGarion]

No it's not. I couldn't handle it. That's why any idiot shouldn't be allowed to be one.

And fortunately not all the idiots that try to be one get to be one... But there are always bad apples.

[DanGarion]

I watched the video. The lady looks to be explaining to the cop that her Mother is dying. They are right next to the entrance to the Emergency Room. I know most cops aren't Rhodes scholars, but this looks fairly self explanatory.

I'll give him some leeway on the gun. But it's clear after 30 seconds that this was not a dangerous situation. The threats made by the cop show what his true intentions were.

The main issue I want to bring up though is it's not the cop had just saw him run a light. The light was ran far enough away from the entrance from the hospital that the drive could have been making up the story and using the hospital has an excuse.

[jeff061]

And fortunately not all the idiots that try to be one get to be one... But there are always bad apples.

I've seen a few bad apples get rejected. They spend a year or two as a security guard somewhere, hang out and network with cops, and eventually break-in with another city. Anyone can be a cop if they are persistent.

[DanGarion]

I've seen a few bad apples get rejected. They spend a year or two as a security guard somewhere, hang out and network with cops, and eventually break-in with another city. Anyone can be a cop if they are persistent.

Tell that to the group of guys I know that have been waiting 2+ years to get into the force in various cities.

[CU Tiger]

Not nearly as dangerous as not having him out there.

I've never met anyone with a badge & a gun who wasn't capable of having that same moment at some point in their career. Like most of the rest of us they're human & prone to better or worse reactions to different situations. And I say that having had the privilege of knowing some incredibly fine officers over the years, some truly amazing people.

Anecdotally one of those (without a doubt the best damn cop I ever saw) was murdered while making a routine traffic stop, another was killed by a shotgun blast from a concealed homeowner while walking up the driveway to serve a minor warrant on an otherwise peaceful Saturday morning. That sort of job environment brings a whole different level of stress than 99.9 percent of the rest of us have to deal with at work.

John did you watch the video? he isnt worried about being shot when he turns his back to the suspect who is out of his car and un restrained and then does not address the situation while sitting in his car. there were more police 101 rules broken here than I can count. That said, had I been Moates I would have calmly and with my hands clearly visible walked into the hospital; he would not have been arrested inside.

[molson]

I've seen a few bad apples get rejected. They spend a year or two as a security guard somewhere, hang out and network with cops, and eventually break-in with another city. Anyone can be a cop if they are persistent.

It depends on the city.

I've seen departments in Idaho so desperate for officers they advertise in California.

I also remember being blown away by the number of applicants who started out the process v. those who actually became cops in one random Rhode Island town I worked for.

[RainMaker]

The main issue I want to bring up though is it's not the cop had just saw him run a light. The light was ran far enough away from the entrance from the hospital that the drive could have been making up the story and using the hospital has an excuse.

That's fine, but it was pretty clear once the nurse came out the first time that he wasn't bullshitting.

Let the guy go build his ego as a mall cop. He has no business carrying a weapon and serving the people.

[RainMaker]

My only bad cop story was when I was in college. My roommate had just had some oral surgery and was pretty drugged up for the rest of the day. He needed to go to Walgreens late at night to pick up some ice cream and some ice packs.

I took him and as we were leaving he apparently walked through the entrance way instead of the exit way and had to maneuver around the cop that was entering (this wasn't intentional, he was pretty loopy from the drugs and not the kind of guy that starts trouble). The cop shoved him from behind and yelled something about showing respect. My friend was on a good dose of vicodin and still woozy from whatever he had during surgery. He looked real confused and didn't say anything. The cop grabbed him by the neck and slammed him up against the brick wall. I thought maybe the cop thought he was drunk so I kind of jumped in and told him he's just out of surgery. The cop told me to shut the fuck up or I'd be arrested.

The blow against the wall blew open the stitches in his mouth and he started bleeding pretty good from there. I think the cop realized he had gone too far and let go and told us to get the hell out of there. We went to my car and I was trying to get something for him to catch the blood in. The cop came storming out there then and told us to go straight home or we'd be arrested for trespassing and resisting arrest. I told the guy he needs a doctor as his stitches look to be busted open. He told us we better go home and not to think about going anywhere else. The cop tailed us all the way back to our apartment.

The next day he had to get some stitches put back in. He also had a pretty big scrape along one side of his face from the brick wall. He filed a complaint but the cop denied everything and claimed he was drunk and fell down on the pavement. They didn't really take it very seriously anyway.

It's not a big deal either now that I'm in Chicago. That kind of stuff here is normal for cops, usually much worse. This cop beat the shit out of some innocent bartender while his cop buddy looked on. They didn't charge him (despite the tape) until it hit the media a couple months later.

YouTube - Chicago Cop Beats Bartender - abc news (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi_I8I8EPxg)

They also have a pretty good history of beating the shit out of women, drunk driving and killing people (then covering it up despite video tape evidence), and torturing suspects.

YouTube - Chicago Police beat woman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5QqqeEfpuw)

Tough to give them the benefit of the doubt when so much mounting evidence keeps showing up with them abusing their powers.

[Fighter of Foo]

Or less than 30 seconds to wait at a red light and skip all this drama.


Again, complete horseshit. No traffic stop takes 30 seconds. Have you EVER been pulled over a night in a city?

[MJ4H]

I think he said wait at the red light which would mean not breaking the law and thus not getting stopped in the first place. 30 seconds is a reasonable guess for that.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

As he's already clarified, he's suggesting he not run the red light in the first place, avoiding the traffic stop.

And he's got a point, difficult situation or not. I don't believe there's a mother-in-law dying exception in the lawbook. The question is whether the officer should have used his discretion to deal with this differently.

[Mustang]

Again, complete horseshit. No traffic stop takes 30 seconds. Have you EVER been pulled over a night in a city?

I think he meant 30 seconds if he would have stopped at the light and not ran it.

[Fighter of Foo]

I think he meant 30 seconds if he would have stopped at the light and not ran it.

Ah, OK. My bad.

[Noop]

Rainmaker, I know countless numbers of people (both black and white) who went through that stuff. I have myself mostly because of the car I drive and how I look (dread locks and the whole urban wardrobe) so much in fact what this jackass did was pretty damn tame. Molson post an article about people celebrating about the cop but to a certain extent I can see why.

I remember when a cop got jumped in high school, the guys that did it were hailed as heroes because that cop was known to fuck with people just because. I don't condone the murder of police but in the case of the officer getting jumped, he deserved it.

[DanGarion]

As he's already clarified, he's suggesting he not run the red light in the first place, avoiding the traffic stop.

And he's got a point, difficult situation or not. I don't believe there's a mother-in-law dying exception in the lawbook. The question is whether the officer should have used his discretion to deal with this differently.
I'd actually forgot about this story from a couple years ago...

My father in law had surgery for mesothelioma (8+ hours of surgery we were at the hospital the whole day). After he got out the doctor said things were looking good. WE went and visited him the next day and he was awake, things were improving. Then we get a call at 2 AM that he's crashed and is in CCU/ICU in a coma. We rushed to the hospital, going the speed I normally travel down the freeway (UCLA Medical is about 40 miles from Orange County). I stopped at a number of lights, even the ones closest to the hospital, because regardless of the situation at hand, it's my responsibility to not put others in risk. So when I'm speaking about the driver being in the wrong, I do speak from experience in my own life.

Once again, as I've stated each time, the officer should have handled the situation differently once he was approached by the nurse, but it was the drivers own fault for the series of events that occurred, period. Much of the blame goes on him for how he handled the emergency situation.

[Raiders Army]

YouTube - Chicago Cop Beats Bartender - abc news (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi_I8I8EPxg)

They also have a pretty good history of beating the shit out of women, drunk driving and killing people (then covering it up despite video tape evidence), and torturing suspects.

YouTube - Chicago Police beat woman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5QqqeEfpuw)

Tough to give them the benefit of the doubt when so much mounting evidence keeps showing up with them abusing their powers.
I can agree with most of what you've posted in this thread, but to be fair when cops don't abuse their power it doesn't make the news or youtube. I'm sure there are far more instances of cops doing the right thing than doing the wrong thing. Keeping the "mounting evidence" in perspective, I'd say that cops do what's right most of the time.

[Noop]

I can agree with most of what you've posted in this thread, but to be fair when cops don't abuse their power it doesn't make the news or youtube. I'm sure there are far more instances of cops doing the right thing than doing the wrong thing. Keeping the "mounting evidence" in perspective, I'd say that cops do what's right most of the time.

I think that depends on location.

[molson]

I can agree with most of what you've posted in this thread, but to be fair when cops don't abuse their power it doesn't make the news or youtube. I'm sure there are far more instances of cops doing the right thing than doing the wrong thing. Keeping the "mounting evidence" in perspective, I'd say that cops do what's right most of the time.

And Chicago police, like Chicago politics, is off in it's own corrupt world and doesn't at all say anything about police (or even politics) outside Illinois.

[Raiders Army]

I think that depends on location.
True, but I was speaking generally not necessarily in Chicago, Dallas, Smalltown USA, etc.

[Noop]

True, but I was speaking generally not necessarily in Chicago, Dallas, Smalltown USA, etc.

Just because I want to know but where does it not happen? If not a big city or in a small town?

[Huckleberry]

I'd actually forgot about this story from a couple years ago...

My father in law had surgery for mesothelioma (8+ hours of surgery we were at the hospital the whole day). After he got out the doctor said things were looking good. WE went and visited him the next day and he was awake, things were improving. Then we get a call at 2 AM that he's crashed and is in CCU/ICU in a coma. We rushed to the hospital, going the speed I normally travel down the freeway (UCLA Medical is about 40 miles from Orange County). I stopped at a number of lights, even the ones closest to the hospital, because regardless of the situation at hand, it's my responsibility to not put others in risk. So when I'm speaking about the driver being in the wrong, I do speak from experience in my own life.

Once again, as I've stated each time, the officer should have handled the situation differently once he was approached by the nurse, but it was the drivers own fault for the series of events that occurred, period. Much of the blame goes on him for how he handled the emergency situation.

Were you told his death was imminent? If not, then it's not close to the same thing. Dire medical situation, yes.

Also, either you or I misunderstand what traffic lights are for. I have run traffic lights in emergency situations late at night when I have ensured that passage through the intersection is safe. I would do it again in the same situation without hesitation. At no time during these two incidents do I feel I ever put anyone at risk, either the other occupants of my vehicle or anyone else on the road.

[TCY Junkie]

I thought a cop had a small racing group that was family based and postponed it to go see his dying mom. None of that interested me at all, so I didn't open this thread until last night after my brother told me about it. Could we in the future be more careful about thread titles for people that are positive minded. Thanks

[Huckleberry]

Oh, and for the record, Dallas Police Chief David Kunkle strongly disagrees with those of you defending the officer. And not in the standard "I guess I have to fire this guy because of the public outrage and media coverage" language, either.

Dallas - Unfair Park - DPD Chief David Kunkle Expresses His Embarrassment Over Ryan Moats Incident (http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2009/03/in_which_chief_kunkle_expresse.php)

At times throughout the 20-minute conference, Kunkle seemed to struggle to eloquently express his feelings; he often bowed his head to read from prepared notes. "It's hard to find the right words and still be professional as a police chief," he said.

Kunkle lauded Moats, who did not make it to the hospital room to see his mother-in-law before she died, and his wife for their "extraordinary patience and restraint," as is apparent on the raw video provided by the DPD and available after the jump. Kunkle pointed out that Moats never identified himself as an NFL player or expected special treatment.



The incident was not reported to the chief until almost a week after the incident; the reason for the delay is also being investigated.

Kunkle said it was his understanding that the officer drew his gun. But, he said, since that's not on the video, he can't confirm such reports.

Kunkle stated that while state law gives police officers tremendous discretion in making arrests, officers are also taught to use "common sense." Kunkle said he was most bothered that the officer was "berating" Moats with threats of arrest.

Said the chief, "We don't want arrests to occur because someone made a police officer mad."

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/APStories/stories/D975T9G82.html

Kunkle said the department is "embarrassed and disappointed."

Caught on tape: Cop stops NFL player from seeing his dying mother-in-law in Dallas - 3/27/09 - Los Angeles-Southern California-LA Breaking News, Weather, Traffic, Sports - abc7.com (http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/national_world&id=6731635)

"When we at the command staff reviewed the tape, we were embarrassed, disappointed," Kunkle said. "It's hard to find the right word and still be professional in my role as the police chief. But the behavior was not appropriate."

Police Chiefs don't use language like this when they're just putting out the flames. Kunkle is pissed, and he has more information on what happened than any of us.

[molson]

Police Chiefs don't use language like this when they're just putting out the flames. Kunkle is pissed, and he has more information on what happened than any of us.

His #1 priority is how this impacts police interactions going forward. This stuff being blown out of proporition gives motorists a confidence and a sense of defiance when pulled over, which can lead to difficult and dangerous situations. When people feel a moral superiority over police officers in general (it doesn't take much, it's already been expressed in this thread), it emboldens them to act like punks during police interactions, because they feel any negative result must be 100% someone else's fault.

And notice the police chief seems most upset about the officer's tones and threats, which is something nobody can defend.

And police chiefs do use language like this all the time - they will almost never publicly defend an officer who has been involved in any controversial incident. That's just stupid, and dangerous. One of the most disgusting organized things I've ever seen from police is in Chicago, when they surrounded, in a show of solidarity, that officer who beat up the bartender at his court hearing. More typically, the officer who made a bad judgment is seperated until everything is resolved.

Every profession has both bad apples, and good people that make mistakes. The opportunities for mistakes in a police uniform are extraordinary. They don't get paid enough to be form a navy seal unit that acts without emotion and exhibits only perfect profesionalism.

[Raiders Army]

Just because I want to know but where does it not happen? If not a big city or in a small town?

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

[DanGarion]

Were you told his death was imminent? If not, then it's not close to the same thing. Dire medical situation, yes.

Also, either you or I misunderstand what traffic lights are for. I have run traffic lights in emergency situations late at night when I have ensured that passage through the intersection is safe. I would do it again in the same situation without hesitation. At no time during these two incidents do I feel I ever put anyone at risk, either the other occupants of my vehicle or anyone else on the road.
Yes actually he was on his deathbed, he died three days later when we decided to pull the plug.

Traffic lights are to control traffic, red light is stop, green is go. If a cop sees you run a light you should be ticketed, you are breaking the law.

[gstelmack]

When people feel a moral superiority over police officers in general (it doesn't take much, it's already been expressed in this thread), it emboldens them to act like punks during police interactions, because they feel any negative result must be 100% someone else's fault.

Yup. Moates and his passengers were shits to this cop early on, but that's excused because he was a shit back.

I'm fine with the cop taking some discipline for how he handled the end of this, but I really want to see Moates take some responsibility for telling the cop to go find his insurance himself (for example), or the woman for yelling and waving her fist at him.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Everyone always uses the bad apples to castigate the entire group. Cops, priests and religious people, Boston sports fans. I guess it's human nature in that way. I have a deep respect for policemen while at the same time realize that some are in it for the wrong reasons.

[Noop]

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

Where exactly is this place where there aren't a lot of complaints about the police?

[Noop]

Everyone always uses the bad apples to castigate the entire group. Cops, priests and religious people, Boston sports fans. I guess it's human nature in that way. I have a deep respect for policemen while at the same time realize that some are in it for the wrong reasons.

There is a history with them that goes way back.

[DanGarion]

Where exactly is this place where there aren't a lot of complaints about the police?

Where exactly is the place where there aren't a lot of complaints about ANYTHING. People always complain and rarely compliment. It's somehow part of human nature.

[Huckleberry]

Yes actually he was on his deathbed, he died three days later when we decided to pull the plug.

That's not close to "she's going to die in the next 30 minutes."

Traffic lights are to control traffic.

So what about when there is no traffic (other than the car you're driving)?

[Noop]

Where exactly is the place where there aren't a lot of complaints about ANYTHING. People always complain and rarely compliment. It's somehow part of human nature.

Well compared to a place like Oakland some small town doesn't have near the amount of complaints about police brutality, abuse of power, etc. I asked where are these places where people complain about their police for something other then the things I mentioned.

Even in Aventura (a rich city in Miami) you hear stories of people getting their asses kicked by police.

[Raiders Army]

Where exactly is this place where there aren't a lot of complaints about the police?

I never said there was a place where there weren't a lot of complaints about the police. My point was that when cops are doing their job they aren't recognized; therefore, to say that there is a trend of abuse of power amongst the police based upon news snippets isn't necessarily true.

Take for example healthcare. Stories about docs doing their jobs don't make the papers. When they screw up, those stories make the papers.

[larrymcg421]

Yup. Moates and his passengers were shits to this cop early on, but that's excused because he was a shit back.

If we were to go with your "shits" premise (I don't), then I'd argue it's excused because they were a grieving family whose relative was minutes from dying.

[Noop]

I never said there was a place where there weren't a lot of complaints about the police. My point was that when cops are doing their job they aren't recognized; therefore, to say that there is a trend of abuse of power amongst the police based upon news snippets isn't necessarily true.

Take for example healthcare. Stories about docs doing their jobs don't make the papers. When they screw up, those stories make the papers.

If your doing what you're suppose to do it isn't news... as much as I hate it bad news is very profitable.

[Huckleberry]

His #1 priority is how this impacts police interactions going forward. This stuff being blown out of proporition gives motorists a confidence and a sense of defiance when pulled over, which can lead to difficult and dangerous situations. When people feel a moral superiority over police officers in general (it doesn't take much, it's already been expressed in this thread), it emboldens them to act like punks during police interactions, because they feel any negative result must be 100% someone else's fault.

I don't feel a moral superiority over police officers. An important note, though, is that I also don't feel that police officers have a moral superiority over me. Do you disagree?

And notice the police chief seems most upset about the officer's tones and threats, which is something nobody can defend.

Elsewhere Kunkle explicitly stated that Powell's only concern, after being informed that the story of the dying relative was true, should have been helping them get to the relative as quickly as possible in any way he could. Which is true. He's not only pissed because he was an asshole, he's also pointed out what an officer should do in this situation.

And police chiefs do use language like this all the time - they will almost never publicly defend an officer who has been involved in any controversial incident. That's just stupid, and dangerous. One of the most disgusting organized things I've ever seen from police is in Chicago, when they surrounded, in a show of solidarity, that officer who beat up the bartender at his court hearing. More typically, the officer who made a bad judgment is seperated until everything is resolved.

No. They don't use language like this all the time. I agree that they do publicly reprimand the officer in most situations, but not in these terms, not with this emotion.

Every profession has both bad apples, and good people that make mistakes. The opportunities for mistakes in a police uniform are extraordinary. They don't get paid enough to be form a navy seal unit that acts without emotion and exhibits only perfect profesionalism.

Yes, which is why people that can't handle it should be removed from the force. There's a large gap between perfect professionalism and the way this officer handled this situation. I've also read this guy's blog, which is now removed from xanga.com, and he's an asshat. Great power, great responsibility and all that jazz. A police officer should serve and protect, and in this situation the officer was doing neither for anyone. As Kunkle said, officers have discretion on whether or not to issue tickets, etc.

Should a person that jaywalks to escape a building that's on fire be ticketed? By the letter of the law it's a violation that should be ticketed. Fortunately we have the ability to reason.

[molson]

That's not close to "she's going to die in the next 30 minutes."


Again, their actions were reasonable and understandable, but also completely counterproductive to their goal. You really don't save that much time driving like a maniac in city streets.

If you run a red light, you're saving somewhere between 0 and 60 seconds, at the risk of losing 15+ minutes via traffic stop, and causing an accident (and if you run multiple lights and speed, your odds of geting stopped, or causing an accident go up). If you're under stress then maybe you're not capable of making that calcuation, and that's fine, but it's not anybody else's fault when your silly risk doesn't pay off.

If you want to put an officer in the position of trying to figure out whether you're the first person in months to tell him the truth about an excuse for breaking the law, that's your gamble.

[gstelmack]

If we were to go with your "shits" premise (I don't)

Sigh. This is where the fundamental issue in this thread is: some people think it's okay to jump out of your car when a cop pulls you over, yell at him and wave your first, ignore orders to get back in the car, tell him to go get your insurance himself, drive for a full minute after he turns his lights and sirens on, etc etc etc. And the cop has to take it quietly.

[Mustang]

Sigh. This is where the fundamental issue in this thread is: some people think it's okay to jump out of your car when a cop pulls you over, yell at him and wave your first, ignore orders to get back in the car, tell him to go get your insurance himself, drive for a full minute after he turns his lights and sirens on, etc etc etc. And the cop has to take it quietly.

Who suggested this in this thread?

[gstelmack]

I also think that an illuminating piece of data might be to watch dashcam video from the rest of this officer's day, or a day or two before. Would be interesting to see how this guy treats people he pulls over typically, how many folks try to pull one over on him, and the like. Would be illuminating to both sides likely.

[DanGarion]

That's not close to "she's going to die in the next 30 minutes."



So what about when there is no traffic (other than the car you're driving)?
It's the same type of situation. If you've ever experienced an emergency with a family member at the hospital there is very limited information provided most the time. All I knew was that he was in a coma or brain dead. Dying, going to die, brain dead, all the same thing and completed close and related to each other.

As for traffic, if I'm in a car, I'm traffic. There are no laws that let you run red lights because you look both ways, or because of emergencies. If there are let me know so I can cite them when I feel like it.

[Huckleberry]

Again, their actions were reasonable and understandable, but also completely counterproductive to their goal. You really don't save that much time driving like a maniac in city streets.

If you run a red light, you're saving somewhere between 0 and 60 seconds, at the risk of losing 15+ minutes via traffic stop, and causing an accident (and if you run multiple lights and speed, your odds of geting stopped, or causing an accident go up). If you're under stress then maybe you're not capable of making that calcuation, and that's fine, but it's not anybody else's fault when your silly risk doesn't pay off.

Your inputs are defective because most officers would not detain you for 15+ minutes. This particular guy got unlucky with the officer he drew.

The funny thing about all this, and probably part of why I'm so adamant about it, is that in one of the two situations I describe above where I violated traffic laws and ran traffic lights late at night was in Austin, Texas when my wife went into labor with our firstborn. The moment her labor started her contractions were two minutes apart and her water broke shortly thereafter. We called our midwife (who delivered at the hospital then) and she said we needed to get to the hospital as soon as possible. Risk of infection, incredibly short labor, etc.

I got tailed by a cop for running the light at 38th street and Lamar in Austin. This light is maybe 2 blocks from the hospital. The cop turned onto 38th street to follow me. Never turned on his lights. As soon as I entered the emergency room portion of the parking lot, he stopped his car, watched me get my wife out, then pulled away.

That is how not to be an asshole police officer. It was 2:30 in the morning, nobody else was on the roads (well, I passed a motorcyclist before that) and I wasn't endangering anyone. I was responding prudently to an emergency situation. Just like Moats was.

[Raiders Army]

Yup. Moates and his passengers were shits to this cop early on, but that's excused because he was a shit back.

I'm fine with the cop taking some discipline for how he handled the end of this, but I really want to see Moates take some responsibility for telling the cop to go find his insurance himself (for example), or the woman for yelling and waving her fist at him.

I have a feeling no one will change their mind, but honestly I felt as if they were pretty cool considering the circumstances.

To take a slightly different take from the longish car chase, I would give the cop benefit of the doubt if the chase had been short and ended at the hospital. He wouldn't have had time to think about why they weren't stopping and where they stopped. But because the chase was pretty long, he had time to think about it.

On the flipside, they probably should've stopped and I've seen instances where the cop would run ahead of the family with his lights on to clear traffic so they can get there faster.

[gstelmack]

Who suggested this in this thread?

Well, the post I quoted argued that their actions were not only excused, but that he disagreed that they were being "shits" (my word) to the officer while doing all of this. And all of those actions I listed were in the tape.

I just don't think it's reasonable to expect the cop to immediately flip a switch after the way he spends the first 3 minutes of that tape. Certainly by the time we're hitting the 12 or 13 minute mark he's in full denial mode, and deserves to be held to task for not listening to the nurse and other officer, but folks expecting him to just go "well then, okay, my mistake, see you later" at the 3:15 mark or so are delusional.

It was mentioned elsewhere, I'll mention it again: if you didn't have the rest of this story, and all you had were the first 3 minutes of that tape, what would your reaction be?

[Huckleberry]

As for traffic, if I'm in a car, I'm traffic. There are no laws that let you run red lights because you look both ways, or because of emergencies. If there are let me know so I can cite them when I feel like it.

The exception is called discretion, reason, and common sense. Police officers are expected and authorized to exercise these abilities. I've known that since before Chief Kunkle came out and said as much with respect to this situation. So, for example, are district attorneys. The laws exist as a baseline. There are always exceptions. It's one of the basic reasons we are entitled to a jury by our peers. (edit - not the main reason, I realized this could be misintepreted)

Yes, in the vast majority of cases, the law should be followed and is a good rule. But there are times when breaking laws is acceptable. And emergency situations in which the act of breaking the law does not infringe on anyone else's rights or safety are the perfect example.

[stevew]

This is devolving into one of the 5 dumbest threads in FOFC history.

[Mustang]

It was mentioned elsewhere, I'll mention it again: if you didn't have the rest of this story, and all you had were the first 3 minutes of that tape, what would your reaction be?

I don't think the cop did anything wrong at the beginning.. over time he morphed into an asshole though.

[Huckleberry]

Well, the post I quoted argued that their actions were not only excused, but that he disagreed that they were being "shits" (my word) to the officer while doing all of this. And all of those actions I listed were in the tape.

I just don't think it's reasonable to expect the cop to immediately flip a switch after the way he spends the first 3 minutes of that tape. Certainly by the time we're hitting the 12 or 13 minute mark he's in full denial mode, and deserves to be held to task for not listening to the nurse and other officer, but folks expecting him to just go "well then, okay, my mistake, see you later" at the 3:15 mark or so are delusional.

It was mentioned elsewhere, I'll mention it again: if you didn't have the rest of this story, and all you had were the first 3 minutes of that tape, what would your reaction be?

My reaction is this: Who gives a shit about the first 3 minutes of the tape?

The cop acted like a douche for 20 minutes or so. If he had responded appropriately before that (like the critical moment where the hospital nurse and OTHER POLICE OFFICER vouch for the story) then there wouldn't be as much of a firestorm.

[molson]

This is devolving into one of the 5 dumbest threads in FOFC history.

I always love when the thread police make an appearance.

[stevew]

lemme see your insurance

[gstelmack]

To take a slightly different take from the longish car chase, I would give the cop benefit of the doubt if the chase had been short and ended at the hospital. He wouldn't have had time to think about why they weren't stopping and where they stopped. But because the chase was pretty long, he had time to think about it.

And as the chase gets longer, what he's thinking is "what are they running from and trying to get away from me?", not "what legitimate reason would they have for ignoring my signal?", given that probably 99.5% of the reasons people don't pull over are not legitimate. And the longer the car runs, the more likely the guy is to pull a gun when they finally do corner him.

Moates just happened to be in that .5% (my made up statistic, but I think I'm in the ballpark).

[stevew]

dola-

I will not let you go to lunch until you provide it.

[molson]

lemme see your insurance

Go find it yourself.

[Huckleberry]

And as the chase gets longer, what he's thinking is "what are they running from and trying to get away from me?", not "what legitimate reason would they have for ignoring my signal?", given that probably 99.5% of the reasons people don't pull over are not legitimate. And the longer the car runs, the more likely the guy is to pull a gun when they finally do corner him.

Moates just happened to be in that .5% (my made up statistic, but I think I'm in the ballpark).

Criminals usually have their hazards on to alert everyone to their presence.

[molson]

Your inputs are defective because most officers would not detain you for 15+ minutes. This particular guy got unlucky with the officer he drew.

The funny thing about all this, and probably part of why I'm so adamant about it, is that in one of the two situations I describe above where I violated traffic laws and ran traffic lights late at night was in Austin, Texas when my wife went into labor with our firstborn. The moment her labor started her contractions were two minutes apart and her water broke shortly thereafter. We called our midwife (who delivered at the hospital then) and she said we needed to get to the hospital as soon as possible. Risk of infection, incredibly short labor, etc.

I got tailed by a cop for running the light at 38th street and Lamar in Austin. This light is maybe 2 blocks from the hospital. The cop turned onto 38th street to follow me. Never turned on his lights. As soon as I entered the emergency room portion of the parking lot, he stopped his car, watched me get my wife out, then pulled away.

That is how not to be an asshole police officer. It was 2:30 in the morning, nobody else was on the roads (well, I passed a motorcyclist before that) and I wasn't endangering anyone. I was responding prudently to an emergency situation. Just like Moats was.

I'm glad it worked out for you, but you defintitely took a risk with your wife's health. Probably a better risk than Moates did, since you were only 2 blocks from the hospital, as opposed to 1+ mile, and you had an actual medical emergency, and not just an emotional emergency.

If you make major decisions based on an assumption that everyone else will act perfectly and the way you expect them to, you're going to get burned.

[Mustang]

I'm glad it worked out for you, but you defintitely took a risk with your wife's health.

Try pulling out a 'I'm driving the speed limit and have to obey all rules of the road" line to a wife that is in contractions next to you in the car.

[gstelmack]

My reaction is this: Who gives a shit about the first 3 minutes of the tape?

Because it sets the stage for the rest? Am I overreacting? Possibly, I'm just sick of these police brutality stories that act like the victim did nothing wrong, then watching the victim act like a jerk to the cop, or in some cases try to assault the cop, and everyone excuses it, usually because the early reports skip the setup. Assuming the setup is ever mentioned at all.

I mean, the first story has quotes from both sides, and conveniently skips over Moates' "go find my insurance yourself" bit to help goad everyone into attacking the officer. There's a whole side to this story that the folks attacking the cop want to just blindly skip over. It takes two to tango in most cases. And folks are actually presenting excuses for Moates behavior and claiming he was fine in what he did because of the circumstances. I disagree.

The cop acted like a douche for 20 minutes or so. If he had responded appropriately before that (like the critical moment where the hospital nurse and OTHER POLICE OFFICER vouch for the story) then there wouldn't be as much of a firestorm.

Agreed. I just don't think Moates and the woman should be getting off scot-free for antagonizing him in the first place.

[DanGarion]

Yes, in the vast majority of cases, the law should be followed and is a good rule. But there are times when breaking laws is acceptable. And emergency situations in which the act of breaking the law does not infringe on anyone else's rights or safety are the perfect example.
I agree with you in spirit, and hope an officer would be understanding in a situation such as this. I don't feel it's acceptable to break laws, I do think depending on the circumstances they can be forgiven, but it's still not acceptable. If that makes any sense.

[molson]

Try pulling out a 'I'm driving the speed limit and have to obey all rules of the road" line to a wife that is in contractions next to you in the car.

I don't know how many times I can possibly say that such actions would be understandable and reasonable, and someone shouldn't get locked up for such behavior.

Maybe you should do some practice drives or something beforehand, because understandable or not, speeding and running red lights with your pregnant wife in the car ain't a great idea.

[DanGarion]

For those of you that have had wives that were having contractions, etc and took the rules of the road into your own hands (yes I'm being dramatic but that's what you did). Why did you choose to drive, instead of calling 911 and having an ambulance take her or the person in?

[larrymcg421]

For those of you that have had wives that were having contractions, etc and took the rules of the road into your own hands (yes I'm being dramatic but that's what you did). Why did you choose to drive, instead of calling 911 and having an ambulance take her or the person in?

I guess it depends on where you live. If you live in Atlanta, you might as well register the kid for little league while waiting for the ambulance.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I have a question that has nothing to do with Ryan Moats' situation, so it would not be productive to ask me how my question relates to it. It doesn't.

Picture yourself driving alone on city streets at 2am. You notice a car behind you, and it follows all of your turns for 10 minutes. You can't see how many people are in the car. You haven't encountered any stop signs or red traffic lights, so you've had no reason to stop. You get suspicious and try to turn onto a side road to see if it's just coincidence or if you are really being followed. The car turns along with you. You try weaving down different side streets and the car continues to match your every move. Trying to play it safe, you decide to drive to the nearest police station. You're eight blocks away from the police station, and the car is still on your tail. You reach a red light.

Do you stop?

[Pumpy Tudors]

Actually, since my question had nothing to do with Ryan Moats, I should have started a new thread, but please forgive me since I'm new to this board.