Interesting mask. (Newbies, drafting help likely in this thread.)

[Ben E Lou]

Messing around with a new SP career. This guy is around for my 1.32 pick. Red in dash, agility, and positional drill. Blue in Sol and Strength. Obvious masking bar signature. Let's see where he goes.

[Ben E Lou]

20/37 initial on-roster rating. +8 or so in camp?

[Ben E Lou]

Heh. +11, with lots of nice, even bars. It's SP so I have studs all over the place and injuries high, so I'm gonna turn off injuries and quicksim a few seasons with him as the starter for demonstration purposes. I'm thinking upper 60s/low 70s.

[Ben E Lou]

Heck, maybe even higher. +6 in FA1:1 of his 2nd season. 48/54.

[Ben E Lou]

Up to 63/63 at FA1:1 of his 3rd season.

[Ben E Lou]

FA1:1 Season 4: 67/67.

[Ben E Lou]

FA1:1 Season 5: 71/71. (That's +34, for those of you keeping score at home.)

I'l stop there. I doubt he'll go much higher than that.

That's all for today's installment of "Why It's Better To Completely Ignore The Bars."

[LondonBrown]

Food for thought! Though I'm not quite sure how to interpret. Need to get a few m,ore SP drafts under my belt to improve my own reads.

[Ben E Lou]

Food for thought! Though I'm not quite sure how to interpret. Need to get a few m,ore SP drafts under my belt to improve my own reads.To be clear, this one little example should be taken more as an object lesson on general philosophy than as any sort of detailed help. But hopefully, it's a powerful object lesson.

I'd say that in general, the best way to move from being a beginner in drafting to "intermediate" level would be to just ignore bars, and focus on guys with multiple red/blue combines (not counting Solecismic). I'd say that "Advanced" drafting requires a lot of SP, and learning to compare specific combine scores to specific bars. But for now if you *just* train yourself to ignore the bars and focus on getting guys with multiple red/blue combines, you'll be ahead of a good number of moderately experienced FOF MP participants. I suspect that new players would be better off not opening the player cards during the draft, and just staying on the draft screen with the red/blue/green/black codes.

[Raiders Army]

Can you flip his card over please?

[gstelmack]

Out of curiosity, what was his adjusted rating on the draft screen? Was he up high in the list, or buried way down low?

[Ben E Lou]

I don't know the number, but I still have Analyzer open. He had the 26th-highest adjusted rating.

[gstelmack]

That's good to know.

[Ben E Lou]

Generally speaking, guys with combines as good as his aren't buried way far down. My take is that of the three major measures, combines are most accurate, then adjusted rating, then bars.

[Bako]

Helpful thread. Thanks for posting.

[Raiders Army]

What were his stats or do they matter?

[Ben E Lou]

I didn't track them, and for these purposes, they don't matter.

[Dutch]

combine greatness = dead giveaway

This is a great example of that, thanks for sharing.

On a side note, and one I haven't put much thought into, but it seems that the old random bust from 2k4 isn't neccessarily in 2k7. The combine stud/ratings stud that ends up 15/15 overall just doesn't seem to happen anymore.

[MajikMan77]

What ratings did the coaches have/mentors around ect ? Or again is that not very relevant?

[Raiders Army]

I didn't track them, and for these purposes, they don't matter.

Understood. Thanks.

[RedKingGold]

What ratings did the coaches have/mentors around ect ? Or again is that not very relevant?

Coaches - I can't recall any testing/studies, but I'd bet the effect that coaches have on development (if any) is negligable from what I've seen.

Mentors - Mentors essentially speed up the de-masking process. Having a cornerback mentor on the roster may have helped Toi develop a little bit faster, but it would not change the type of player Toi was destined to be.

[cuervo72]

Coaches - I can't recall any testing/studies, but I'd bet the effect that coaches have on development (if any) is negligable from what I've seen.

I've wondered if they can either a) speed up development or b) slow down decline for older players. I haven't done any testing, but I have to believe they do something.

[RedKingGold]

I've wondered if they can either a) speed up development or b) slow down decline for older players. I haven't done any testing, but I have to believe they do something.

I think we're on the same page. It "has" to mean something, but there's no real way to test it conclusively and no documentation to even hint at what effect coaches have.

Ping jkat.

[Kodos]

combine greatness = dead giveaway

This is a great example of that, thanks for sharing.

On a side note, and one I haven't put much thought into, but it seems that the old random bust from 2k4 isn't neccessarily in 2k7. The combine stud/ratings stud that ends up 15/15 overall just doesn't seem to happen anymore.

What about Bo Jackson in GEFL? His bust seemed pretty random. :redface:

[Yoda]

What about Bo Jackson in GEFL? His bust seemed pretty random. :redface:

True, but he's still a 52/52

[Hoya1]

I've had a few busts in MP footbal.....including DT Dan Saleaumula also in GEFL

[tarcone]

This is good to see and gives me hope for a WR I have in GMFL. He had the 2nd best combine to a 74/74 rated WR. My WR (actually they are both mine) came into rookie TC a 42/42. No development in season. After 2nd year TC he went up to a 43/43. He had a lot of red at the combine. Slow unmasking though.

[stevew]

In an MP league, this guy probably goes in the top 10, right? I do agree it's a good "not judging book by cover" look for people playing SP.

[Ben E Lou]

In an MP league, this guy probably goes in the top 10, right? I do agree it's a good "not judging book by cover" look for people playing SP.Honestly, it depends on who is drafting in the top ten.

[cuervo72]

Honestly, it depends on who is drafting in the top ten.

fof-IHOF.com : Player >> Mercury Staple (http://www.fof-ihof.com/players/player.php?player=14760)

[Firefly]

I think we're on the same page. It "has" to mean something, but there's no real way to test it conclusively and no documentation to even hint at what effect coaches have.

Ping jkat.

Are you sure? i was under the impression that the "young talent" bar for coaches had to do with how fast young players developed.

Probably something I read somewhere, but I thought it was sort of *official*

edit: Yup, in the help file it says coordinators are rated for their ability to develop young players.

[AlexB]

fof-IHOF.com : Player >> Mercury Staple (http://www.fof-ihof.com/players/player.php?player=14760)

How did you get the progress bar on that screen?

I would love it if the next incarnation of FOF had that as standard.

[RedKingGold]

Are you sure? i was under the impression that the "young talent" bar for coaches had to do with how fast young players developed.

Probably something I read somewhere, but I thought it was sort of *official*

edit: Yup, in the help file it says coordinators are rated for their ability to develop young players.

Fantastic. Now if you can tell me what that means, we'll be on the same page.

[cuervo72]

How did you get the progress bar on that screen?

I would love it if the next incarnation of FOF had that as standard.

By running Extractor, then running a script that grabs elements from the Extractor output plus player info (notably ID) and stage info from Interrogator, then storing that in the db. It's only run periodically because a) extractor takes a decent chunk of time and b) changes are really only needed at certain waypoints (determined with Ben's help). It's possible to backtrack a little too, if you have old files available (I hope to fill that in bit by bit).

[Subby]

fof-IHOF.com : Player >> Mercury Staple (http://www.fof-ihof.com/players/player.php?player=14760)
It's all about the right red numbers and supporting blues.

[Raiders Army]

Are you sure? i was under the impression that the "young talent" bar for coaches had to do with how fast young players developed.

Probably something I read somewhere, but I thought it was sort of *official*

edit: Yup, in the help file it says coordinators are rated for their ability to develop young players.

I always thought the Young Talent ability for COORDINATORS affected how fast young players developed. The head coach's Young Talent doesn't matter.

I don't think that the coordinators' ratings affect declines at all, but this opinion is formed just through observation, not any real study.

[Firefly]

Fantastic. Now if you can tell me what that means, we'll be on the same page.

At the very least it must mean young players gain red bars faster when playing for a coordinator (yes, you're right, raiders army, it's just coordinators) with good "young talent" ratings. I can't say I've actually noticed that effect in practice, however.

Since intelligence and mentors also affect development, it's not easy to gauge the effect of each separate thing, but I'd love to hear any theories on their relative importance. Unconsciously, I've just realized, I've switched my faith from mentors to intelligence. Maybe it's just because I don't feel like handing out a roster spot to a guy just for his mentor abilities anymore (except at QB).

To complicate matters more, it's clear gaining points or not is only a probability -so there are no guarantees no matter what you do. I recently had the baffling experience of a young QB in his 3rd year with very high intelligence and a mentor not gaining a single experience point in camp -and then gaining 13 during the season. It had me very worried for a while.

[RedKingGold]

At the very least it must mean young players gain red bars faster when playing for a coordinator (yes, you're right, raiders army, it's just coordinators) with good "young talent" ratings. I can't say I've actually noticed that effect in practice, however.

Bingo. It may have an effect, but there's no way to determine exactly how much.

Since intelligence and mentors also affect development, it's not easy to gauge the effect of each separate thing, but I'd love to hear any theories on their relative importance. Unconsciously, I've just realized, I've switched my faith from mentors to intelligence. Maybe it's just because I don't feel like handing out a roster spot to a guy just for his mentor abilities anymore (except at QB).

To complicate matters more, it's clear gaining points or not is only a probability -so there are no guarantees no matter what you do. I recently had the baffling experience of a young QB in his 3rd year with very high intelligence and a mentor not gaining a single experience point in camp -and then gaining 13 during the season. It had me very worried for a while.

Say whut? You clearly need more time playing this game before making such conclusions.

Intelligence has nothing to do with development.

[UK Rookie]

As Im still a nOOb count my veiws as such but.......I gotta beleive the coaches "Developing Young Talent" is very important in getting the best out of that player.Surely he desides when he`s ready to play as back up or to start if you let your coaches pick your depth charts and line ups,this "right time" factor surely is hidden in his "Young Talent" rating.
In his 2nd post Ben E Lou says he "started " him ,so giving him earlier experience,so he bacame a better player as a result of this.Obviously he must have played good,had successful plays and good players around him to aid his development.

Kinda disagree with what Redking Gold says though about mentors "not changing the type of player Toi was destined to be"

Also you got to add in "Has Toi the X Factor"?

Thanks for veiwing my 2cents

[Subby]

Kinda disagree with what Redking Gold says though about mentors "not changing the type of player Toi was destined to be"

Also you got to add in "Has Toi the X Factor"?

Thanks for veiwing my 2cents
You are just flat wrong on this one, sorry.

Mentors speed up unmasking, that's it.

[RedKingGold]

As Im still a nOOb count my veiws as such but.......I gotta beleive the coaches "Developing Young Talent" is very important in getting the best out of that player.Surely he desides when he`s ready to play as back up or to start if you let your coaches pick your depth charts and line ups,this "right time" factor surely is hidden in his "Young Talent" rating.

Perhaps there are also goblins inside the FOF engine which also determine the outcome of each play. Yet, I've never seen anything which will make me believe in such goblin.

In his 2nd post Ben E Lou says he "started " him ,so giving him earlier experience,so he bacame a better player as a result of this.Obviously he must have played good,had successful plays and good players around him to aid his development.

The quickest way to develop any player and remove their scouting error mask is to play them. It has nothing to do with successful play and good players around him. All that matters is plays that said player participated in, whether that player went to summer league, and whether there is a mentor at that position. That's it.

Kinda disagree with what Redking Gold says though about mentors "not changing the type of player Toi was destined to be"

That's fine. Prove me wrong.

Also you got to add in "Has Toi the X Factor"?

X-Factor only affects the initial roster created at the start of a new game. It has no effect on draft classes imported or created by the game.

Thanks for veiwing my 2cents

No problem, thanks for stopping by.

[RedKingGold]

BTW, I say these things after much more knowledgable and experienced players have tested what works with the FOF engine and what does not.

That being said, I've played every version of FOF since FOF 2 (or about 10 years real-time), so I think I have a pretty good handle on what works and what does not in FOF*

*As does anyone else who has registered with FOFC before the year 2004 and is not named jkat.

[Hammer]

Subby is right without a doubt. Don't worry about being a "noob" though, just read all the old threads on here. Its quicker and easier to understand the game doing that to be honest. Most of the info quoted on here is just based on the solid work done by others in the past. If it wern't for "testing" you could play countless seasons and still be in the dark with regards to some of the little gems of information that have come to light.

[UK Rookie]

Thanks for putting me in my place Subby ...lol

But I still gotta believe that "players develop" differently through lots of different factors not just "Thats the player as he`s drafted"......set time later 3 or 4 years.."Thats how the player will become"

BTW thanks for posting your "defencive Gameplan" on another thread,really helped me understand things .

[UK Rookie]

Thanks Hammer
I`ve read hundreds of posts and threads on the forums and without doubt they are invaluble to us nOOb`s ,so thanks to all you guys.

[Ben E Lou]

As Im still a nOOb ...which is why you're going to get a patient response to this. ;)

but.......I gotta beleive the coaches "Developing Young Talent" is very important in getting the best out of that player.Surely he desides when he`s ready to play as back up or to start if you let your coaches pick your depth charts and line ups,this "right time" factor surely is hidden in his "Young Talent" rating.I can't definitively disprove this statement. However, a number of factors make it extremely unlikely to be true. Basically, there's nothing anywhere in the game (either experienced by long-timers, or documented by the developer) to indicate that the "Young Talent" rating is anything more than a modifier to the speed of a player's development. Plus, there's nothing in the game (either experienced by long-timers, or documented by the developer) to indicate that the coach/staff model is anywhere near as in-depth as you're saying here. I can't disprove it categorically, but I don't think you'll find any long-timer who believes that any of that is true.

In his 2nd post Ben E Lou says he "started " him ,so giving him earlier experience,so he bacame a better player as a result of this.Nope. Playing time speeds along the unmasking process. A player is who he is internally. This guy is probably somewhere from a 70-75 overall internally, and that's true from day 1. That number doesn't change other than by a ratings-reducing injury, or by aging. As a point of reference for this, in my real career, he has started 18 games in three seasons, and he's up to 68/68 at the beginning of season 4, with a different coordinator than the one I used in the Quik-Simhttp://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/trademark.gif test. And I'm quite confident that he'll unmask nearly the exact same in this career once he gets enough games under his belt.

Obviously he must have played good,had successful plays and good players around him to aid his development.I can't say it with certainty, but I have seen *SOME* indications that playing well speeds up development, but that's it. I've never tried to isolate it, but I've just seen some anecdotal indications of it in various SP test scenarios. IF this is the case, playing well just speeds up how quickly you see who he really is; it doesn't give any sort of improvement to who he really is.

Kinda disagree with what Redking Gold says though about mentors "not changing the type of player Toi was destined to be" Sorry. RKG is 99.9% correct there. I don't say 100% because I would argue that the word "destined" is a bit misleading there. ;) A more clear way of saying it is that "Mentors don't change the type of player Toi IS. Mentors just help him get to true maximum faster."

[Hammer]

BTW, I say these things after much more knowledgable and experienced players have tested what works with the FOF engine and what does not.

That being said, I've played every version of FOF since FOF 2 (or about 10 years real-time), so I think I have a pretty good handle on what works and what does not in FOF*

*As does anyone else who has registered with FOFC before the year 2004 and is not named jkat.

Do you think Jim has changed many things without telling us, therefore throwing us off a bit?

For example, a study was done that highlighted the fact that blocking strength ment very little in comparision with run blocking and pass blocking. After that came to light I wonder if Jim perhaps decided to tweak blocking strengths importance in the next patch.

Punishing hitter would be another one that comes to mind. Perhaps if a new study was done on Runningbacks, speed to the outside and power inside might actually matter statistically now. Or do we think he has left things as they were?

[UK Rookie]

Thanks Ben...........

Shuffles back to my quiet corner...... put in my place

Great game non the less !

[Ben E Lou]

No need to shuffle back to a quiet corner there. Keep asking questions. I'd just be careful about making assumptions about how things work in FOF, especially if you're in a MP league.

Here's some info on development and "unmasking" as it has been mentioned in this thread.

10/8/07 Coaches' Corner - Front Office Football Central (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=61379)

[gstelmack]

Wait, I missed something: mentors don't speed up player development, they just speed up unmasking? When did that get figured out / change?

[Ben E Lou]

Well really it's both, Greg. They're still very much tied together. In this particular case it was just easier to use "unmasking" because what was so vital here was the unmasking much more so than the development. Plus, it's a better word to explain to people who don't understand. It puts the emphasis on the fact that it's not that he "got better," but that we just found out who he really is.

[RedKingGold]

Do you think Jim has changed many things without telling us, therefore throwing us off a bit?

For example, a study was done that highlighted the fact that blocking strength ment very little in comparision with run blocking and pass blocking. After that came to light I wonder if Jim perhaps decided to tweak blocking strengths importance in the next patch.

Punishing hitter would be another one that comes to mind. Perhaps if a new study was done on Runningbacks, speed to the outside and power inside might actually matter statistically now. Or do we think he has left things as they were?

Well, there's a difference between tweaking the engine and substantively chaging certain core elements of the engine.

The examples you bring above seem to be tweaks which Jim could have changed. However, with no word from him whether or not he has, we have to assume that these tweaks were not made OR try to tease out if they have through testing.

[Epi_862]

fof-IHOF.com : Player >> Mercury Staple (http://www.fof-ihof.com/players/player.php?player=14760)

Hey, i don't wanna throw the thread around here but...

Man, if FOF's statistics looked anywhere close to that... Wow, just wow. Havent seen these before, since i only play SP.

The main reason i don't play FOF regularly is that i have to spend 3 times more time on tracking player progression than i spend on actually managing the team. A screen like that in FOF itself, and i'll quit my day job.

[Dutch]

The main reason i don't play FOF regularly is that i have to spend 3 times more time on tracking player progression than i spend on actually managing the team. A screen like that in FOF itself, and i'll quit my day job.

Or you might have more time to actually do your job.

[Hammer]

I have never bothered to track players progression or use utilities, other than Extender. It takes the fun away for me. You can still be competitive without tracking player progression. Provided you don't have too many teams, you will know your own guys ratings if you pay attention.

[Dutch]

I have never bothered to track players progression or use utilities, other than Extender. It takes the fun away for me. You can still be competitive without tracking player progression. Provided you don't have too many teams, you will know your own guys ratings if you pay attention.

Having utilities to lay out the full probability of success for drafting players sucks too, but if you don't use 'em, you aren't optimizing your chances for success.

It sucks, but with some of these things being so mysterious, yet so critical to the game, it's hard to avoid them.

[Ben E Lou]

You can still be competitive without tracking player progression.That depends to some degree on who you're playing against. If you're in a league with a number of people who do track it, then you're handicapping yourself if you don't. You *can* be competitive, but likely not as often as you would be if you tracked players across the league.

[Dutch]

Oh, but those utilities are f&%$ing amazing...btw.

[Hammer]

I do use the information put together by Caratacus et al, and have a good idea of combine implications, so I don't think I'm giving up too much when it comes to the draft.

I know I am handicapping myself by not tracking players league wide. Hey, this is a game though. Its just a bit too artificial and nerdy for me (do I have any right to say that playing this game, probably not, lol). By using that utility it just drives the point home to me this is a game, and I'm doing a stat exercise. Not fun for me, but each to his own.

[dwardzala]

Another noob question regarding drafting - not really masking:

what does impression refer to - the bars or whether the combine scores are reflective. It always seems as if the guys I interview are overated or very overated.

Since I've read that paying attention to the combines is more important the the bars, I am wondering how much I should base my decisions on the impression?

[Firefly]

Say whut? You clearly need more time playing this game before making such conclusions.

Intelligence has nothing to do with development.

Did I just pull that out my butt? Can anyone confirm that intelligence affects development? Not that personal attacks aren't uncalled for in any event, redking.

[Dutch]

Another noob question regarding drafting - not really masking:

what does impression refer to - the bars or whether the combine scores are reflective. It always seems as if the guys I interview are overated or very overated.

Since I've read that paying attention to the combines is more important the the bars, I am wondering how much I should base my decisions on the impression?

Every player is given blue bars.

But what fun is drafting if we know exactly what the guys future potential will be?

So every player has a mask attached to those bars.

But what fun is drafting if the mask makes it totally random?

So every player has combines scores.

This is where things are clarified a bit. Not a lot in most cases, but it helps. If a player has great bars, but average or lower combine results (particularly in key areas related to his position) there is a good chance that his blue bars are too high. Likewise, if the blue bars are low but his combine scores are really good, there is a good chance that his blue bars are too low and will creep w/development.

The clear cut obvious choices for this are limited. Many blue bars vs combine scores are not so easy to determine.

So to answer the question, every owner is given interviews, this is somewhat helpful in revealing the future of the player. I think the impression is representative of the blue bars vs combine scores + hidden attributes that we don't see but your scout can see.

Very underrated means the player's bars should creep up.
Underrated means hold or creep up.
Overrated means hold or drop.
Very Overrated means drop.
Hard to Tell means that you aren't getting any help.

And of course, these results are also somewhat randomized to the extend where you almost shouldn't believe them and go with the combine scores or your gut feeling anyway.

[Hammer]

Did I just pull that out my butt? Can anyone confirm that intelligence affects development? Not that personal attacks aren't uncalled for in any event, redking.


It helps QBs learn formations, so technically I guess you are right - but thats about it as far as I know.

[Firefly]

I could've sworn I read it somewhere "official", but I suppose I could be wrong. Can't find it anywhere, at any rate.