Teens Acquitted of Murdering Illegal [Archive] - Front Office Football Central

Raiders Army

05-03-2009, 07:59 AM

I dunno. There are some that agree with RM:

Residents disagree on verdict | republicanherald.com | The Republican-Herald (http://www.republicanherald.com/articles/2009/05/03/news/local_news/pr_republican.20090503.a.pg1.pr03reacts_s1.2494254_top3.txt)

“We have seen problems between the whites and Hispanics,” Chester Bayliff said. “This town was built by the Irish, Italian and Eastern Europeans and this is a prejudice town.”

“I am an American citizen now, but I was born in Belfast. I saw some of it when I first came here, but not as much as with the Mexicans,” Noreen Bayliff said.

Melinda Colon said she thinks race played a part in the verdict.

“That’s crazy how they got away with it. It’s because he was Mexican. If they weren’t white, they’d be doing time,” Colon said.

Lee Ann Jones discussed the trial Saturday as she left Vernalis Restaurant on South Main Street.

“I have mixed feelings,” Jones said. “They got off and I think they should have been charged. People have been talking about it and there are so many stories that it is hard to decide what is the truth, but it is not right what they did.”

I found this to be quite funny though:

Representatives from the Mexican American Legal Defense and Education Fund were outraged by the jury’s conclusion.

“It is time for the Department of Justice to step in and bring justice to the Ramirez family and send a strong message that violence targeting immigrants will not be tolerated and will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law,” Henry Solano, MALDEF interim president and general counsel, said Saturday in a press release.

The release stated MALDEF will continue to work with the Ramirez family and the U.S. Department of Justice.

I like how MALDEF wants the laws to be upheld. I wonder how much they're working to get rid of the illegal immigrants?

On an entirely different note, sometimes I get tired of the United States trying to be holier than thou. If we're going to treat our illegal Mexican immigrants properly, I'd like to have our citizens get treated properly in Mexico who are there legally.

JonInMiddleGA

05-03-2009, 08:17 AM

It is time for the Department of Justice to step in and bring justice to the Ramirez family

If the report describing his immigration status is accurate then I couldn't agree more. They should have been brought to justice a long time ago.

Karlifornia

05-03-2009, 11:43 AM

If the report describing his immigration status is accurate then I couldn't agree more. They should have been brought to justice a long time ago.

Maybe your grandparents or great grandparents should have been brought to justice when they "illegally" came in here and fucked up shit for the native americans.

It's all a bunch of garbage, this immigration issue. The white man already came here "illegally". And for what? For pieces of paper. Didn't wanna pay taxes over in England? Guess what? We're paying taxes over here. Nice work, moron pilgrims.

"Brought to justice". That is truly laughable, and lacks any sense of history. Yeah, how dare they come here and do the jobs nobody else wants.

As an aside, I can't decide which holiday is more bullshit: Thanksgiving, or Colombus Day. Thanksgiving is great. It's like having a "Krystallnacht Feast".

molson

05-03-2009, 11:56 AM

Acquittal = Racism?

Convictions are hard in this country. There are many criminals roaming the street. Very, very few charges result in a conviction on the original charge.

That's party because jurors can be morons, but it's mostly because defense attorneys have a lot more leeway when it comes to ethics (because you can't appeal an acquittal, even if they say, lie about the facts, or attempt to appeal to the subtle racism of the jury.) Happens all the time.

It's funny to see things turned around - the anti-prosecution/law enforcement types get a sense of how hard it is when it's a personal cause to them.

JonInMiddleGA

05-03-2009, 01:12 PM

It's all a bunch of garbage, this immigration issue blah blah blah

Feel better now after your little rant? Would hate to think it was completely wasted.

Comey

05-03-2009, 02:01 PM

Having lived close to that region for many, many years, and having spent a good bit of time there, I wouldn't necessarily say it's "racist".

It's "patriotic".

Raiders Army

05-03-2009, 02:24 PM

Lathum

05-03-2009, 02:44 PM

Having lived close to that region for many, many years, and having spent a good bit of time there, I wouldn't necessarily say it's "racist".

It's "patriotic".

I used to live in Quakertown, not to far away and I would say this is accurate.

Lathum

05-03-2009, 02:46 PM

Maybe your grandparents or great grandparents should have been brought to justice when they "illegally" came in here and fucked up shit for the native americans.

I'm sorry but this is such a tired argument.

That's like saying if my great grandfather has slaves I should somehow be responsible.

It was a totally different time back then.

Schmidty

05-03-2009, 02:52 PM

Dr. Sak

05-03-2009, 03:25 PM

My father grew up in that town. I haven't been back there in around 5 or 6 years since my grandfather died.

judicial clerk

05-03-2009, 03:25 PM

I know this is a particularly racist part of Pennsylvania, but still shocking to see. Not much different from the old days when all white juries acquitted people of lynching black men. Had been following it throughout and admit that I'm not surprised considering the part of the country this took place in. Hopefully the Feds pursue charges.

I agree this seems pretty gross, but after the racism exhibited by the OJ jury, nothing suprises me anymore.

Greyroofoo

05-03-2009, 03:34 PM

Of course the prosecutor could've been incompetent and left room for reasonable doubt.

Nah, must be racism.

lungs

05-03-2009, 03:42 PM

I'm not saying I agree with some of the overboard psycho anti-immigration people, at all)

The problem is that these are the people holding up anything sensible from getting done.

As I've said before, I employ what are likely to be illegal immigrants (but I submit ALL their paperwork to the government even though it is likely fabricated). I'm not sure anybody could argue that I'm looking to undercut American workers, my guys get compensated better than most factories pay in the area.

And to appease the anti-immigration folks, ALL of my employees go back to their home country after two or three years.

So why the hell can't we get a guest worker program going?

DaddyTorgo

05-03-2009, 03:42 PM

As an aside, I can't decide which holiday is more bullshit: Thanksgiving, or Colombus Day. Thanksgiving is great. It's like having a "Krystallnacht Feast".

OMG...so true!!!

RainMaker

05-03-2009, 04:41 PM

Way to be ignorant yourself there, chief.
The jury foreman came out and said it himself.

Jury Foreman Calls Other Jurors Racist - WNEP (http://www.wnep.com/wnep-jury-foreman-calls-other-jurors-racist,0,3864845.story)

I don't know if you are familiar with the area, but it's widely known as a rather racist area. Any remember these videos from the area?

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Comey

05-03-2009, 04:43 PM

Of course the prosecutor could've been incompetent and left room for reasonable doubt.

Nah, must be racism.

I think this is because Hazelton (which outlawed housing to immigrants, I believe) is within a short driving distance to Pottsville.

That said, the area is still pretty...well, long in the tooth.

RainMaker

05-03-2009, 04:46 PM

Nothing to do with the horrible thing that happened, but I find it mind-boggling that there are people ignorant enough to think that illegal immigration isn't a problem. Just wow.

(edit: I'm not saying I agree with some of the overboard psycho anti-immigration people, just that I don't think anyone can say that it isn't a problem at all)

What do you think is the biggest problems with illegal immigration? Not trying to start anything, but I've just never noticed this massive problem with illegals that others are having.

Chief Rum

05-03-2009, 04:50 PM

What do you think is the biggest problems with illegal immigration? Not trying to start anything, but I've just never noticed this massive problem with illegals that others are having.

Where do you live, Rain?

RedKingGold

05-03-2009, 04:57 PM

Of course the prosecutor could've been incompetent and left room for reasonable doubt.

Nah, must be racism.

Yes, yes.

JonInMiddleGA

05-03-2009, 04:58 PM

Where do you live, Rain?

I was kind of wondering the same thing, might be an attractive alternative locale at some point.

RedKingGold

05-03-2009, 04:59 PM

The jury foreman came out and said it himself.

Jury Foreman Calls Other Jurors Racist - WNEP (http://www.wnep.com/wnep-jury-foreman-calls-other-jurors-racist,0,3864845.story)

I don't know if you are familiar with the area, but it's widely known as a rather racist area. Any remember these videos from the area?

Keep trying to paint a whole area with a broad brush.

After all, it's not like you generalize anything you've ever said at FOFC.

"Widely known" = lol

RedKingGold

05-03-2009, 05:03 PM

Dola

I also love where you got that video. Let me run to find some Republican websites with videos showing extreme left-wing individuals in action to counter your "evidence".

EagleFan

05-03-2009, 05:12 PM

lol, the title within the video itself should pretty much tell you everything that you need to know about it.

RainMaker

05-03-2009, 05:13 PM

Where do you live, Rain?
Chicago

Dr. Sak

05-03-2009, 05:13 PM

Dola

I also love where you got that video. Let me run to find some Republican websites with videos showing extreme left-wing individuals in action to counter your "evidence".

It's par for the course for Rainmaker.

RainMaker

05-03-2009, 05:14 PM

Of course the prosecutor could've been incompetent and left room for reasonable doubt.

Nah, must be racism.
You truly believe that if it was 4 Mexican kids who killed a white guy that they wouldn't have been found guilty?

BYU 14

05-03-2009, 05:25 PM

Of course the prosecutor could've been incompetent and left room for reasonable doubt.

Nah, must be racism.

Or.........Maybe it was because the key witnesses were all pretty much involved in the altercation and there was no way to get the straight story about an attack that is pretty clearly racially motivated.

Either way you look at it racism is involved and as usual manifests itself in the most chickenshit of ways possible.

Chief Rum

05-03-2009, 05:27 PM

Chicago

Well, might not be as much an issue in Chicago.

It's definitely an issue in SoCal, one of the biggest actually.

lungs

05-03-2009, 05:31 PM

Where do you live, Rain?

Yep, I'll admit this probably factors into my attitude, living in Wisconsin, since we don't see illegal immigrants in as large of numbers here. Also, while I don't really want to paint with a broad brush, I'd say in general we get a more motivated immigrant because they have a greater distance to travel to get here and our winters suck to them. Sure, there are bad apples here, but the great majority of them are here and not hurting a thing (in most cases, paying into social security which they'll never collect).

That said, I'm all for deporting those involved in crime (other than the crime of simply being here). I'm not sure how to handle granting citizenship, and I wonder what % actually desire citizenship. None of my employees are interested in staying here, and most are actually entrepreneurs from Nicaragua that have no way to raise capital in their home country, and come here and work for a few years to start businesses back in Nicaragua.

And they absolutely adore Ronald Reagan, being former Contras.

RainMaker

05-03-2009, 05:35 PM

Well, might not be as much an issue in Chicago.

It's definitely an issue in SoCal, one of the biggest actually.

What are the issues in SoCal? There is a large Mexican population here in Chicago in many parts but they've never bothered me or caused any issues in my life. In fact, it's in their best interest to stay out of any trouble they can.

Comey

05-03-2009, 05:36 PM

I will actually go with the curve here, and blame A-Rod for this.

Glengoyne

05-03-2009, 05:38 PM

You truly believe that if it was 4 Mexican kids who killed a white guy that they wouldn't have been found guilty?

Well given that the jury, well the foreman, said that the evidence didn't support the charges, I'd like to have enough faith in the system to state that such a verdict would be reasonable. It should be pretty clear that there is more at play here than four white guys beating up a Mexican kid. Was he alone? Was he targetted because he was Mexican? Was it just a stupid teen age brawl, that had nothing to do with race?

So given the facts available to us, it certainly shouldn't be a stretch to say that the acquittal was a reasonable outcome.

I'm about as law abiding a citizen as possible. I back law enforcement at prett much all opportunity. I predicted the Rodney King verdict, as I followed it from a distance, and knew the case being made was weak weak weak. So stating those facts. Last year I was on a jury, and basically acquitted a hardened repeat felon because I believed the cop was making shit up. The charge was only drunk driving, but still. It is up to the prosecution to build and present a case. If the jury acquits it isn't always because they are a bunch of a racists.

RainMaker

05-03-2009, 05:47 PM

I'm about as law abiding a citizen as possible. I back law enforcement at prett much all opportunity. I predicted the Rodney King verdict, as I followed it from a distance, and knew the case being made was weak weak weak. So stating those facts. Last year I was on a jury, and basically acquitted a hardened repeat felon because I believed the cop was making shit up. The charge was only drunk driving, but still. It is up to the prosecution to build and present a case. If the jury acquits it isn't always because they are a bunch of a racists.
There is nothing a prosecutor can do if jurors are racist. He can present all the evidence in the world and the jury will find the guy not guilty simply based on skin color.

Chief Rum

05-03-2009, 05:50 PM

What are the issues in SoCal? There is a large Mexican population here in Chicago in many parts but they've never bothered me or caused any issues in my life. In fact, it's in their best interest to stay out of any trouble they can.

Crime and prison crowding. Job loss (oddly enough, it's the legal immigrants who mostly lose out there). Money going back to Mexico instead of staying in the US. Illegals taking advantage of costly social services in the US while contributing nothing to the pot. The drug trade (I guess that fits in with crime). Traffic/driving issues.

Illegal immigration costs California billions, and that's probably conservative.

I am also certain this same pattern is repeated in Arizona, New Mexico and (in particular) Texas.

CamEdwards

05-03-2009, 05:53 PM

Maybe your grandparents or great grandparents should have been brought to justice when they "illegally" came in here and fucked up shit for the native americans.

It's all a bunch of garbage, this immigration issue. The white man already came here "illegally". And for what? For pieces of paper. Didn't wanna pay taxes over in England? Guess what? We're paying taxes over here. Nice work, moron pilgrims.

"Brought to justice". That is truly laughable, and lacks any sense of history. Yeah, how dare they come here and do the jobs nobody else wants.

As an aside, I can't decide which holiday is more bullshit: Thanksgiving, or Colombus Day. Thanksgiving is great. It's like having a "Krystallnacht Feast".

Colombus Day would be more bullshit. After all, it's spelled Columbus. Accept no imitations. As for the sins of the "white man", you realize that the New World wasn't some sort of sunny-skied utopia, right?

This is one of my favorite pieces of Jacques Barzun's "From Dawn to Decadence":

The Spanish colonists committed atrocities from greed and racist contempt that nothing can palliate or excuse. But to blame Columbus is a piece of restrospective lynching; he was not the master criminal inspiring all the rest. It is moreover a mistake to think that because the native peoples were the sufferers, all of them were peaceable innocents. The Caribs whom Columbus first encountered had fought and displaced the Arawaks who occupied the islands. The Aztecs whom Cortez conquered had originally descended from the north, and destroyed the previous civilization. To the north and the east many of the tribes lived in perpetual warfare, the strong exploiting the weak, and several- notably the Iroquois- had slaves. In short, what happened on the newfound hemisphere in the early modern times continued the practice of the old: in ancient Greece alien tribes marching in from the north; likewise in the making of the Roman Empire, in the peopling of the British Isles by Romans, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Danes, and Normans; in France, Italy, and Spain by Franks, Normans, Lombards Visigoths, Ostrogoths, and later by Arabs. Everywhere the story is one of invasion, killing, rape, and plunder and occupation of the land that belonged to the vanquished. Today, this fusion or dispersion of peoples and cultures by means of death and destruction is abhorred in principle but flourishing in fact. Africa, the Middle and Far East, and South Central Europe are still theaters of conquest and massacre. And Columbus is not the responsible party.

BYU 14

05-03-2009, 05:54 PM

gstelmack

05-03-2009, 05:59 PM

Here in North Carolina, unlicensed / uninsured / drunk driving is probably the biggest issue that impacts folks on a fairly regular basis.

Chief Rum

05-03-2009, 06:05 PM

Here in North Carolina, unlicensed / uninsured / drunk driving is probably the biggest issue that impacts folks on a fairly regular basis.

Yeah, that's main thing I was referring to with the "Traffic/Driving" issue I pointed out above. The other issues are just as big, but that one also stands out in CA.

Danny

05-03-2009, 06:08 PM

Chief Rum

05-03-2009, 06:10 PM

It's also an issue in education.

Yeah, that's covered under "illegals taking advantage of social services in the US", but you're right, that particular issue should be highlighted under that, as well as use of medical services at public hospitals where they can't turn people away (I'm talking elective/non-critical type stuff, all humans, no matter there status should and do receive emergency services).

RainMaker

05-03-2009, 06:20 PM

Crime and prison crowding. Job loss (oddly enough, it's the legal immigrants who mostly lose out there). Money going back to Mexico instead of staying in the US. Illegals taking advantage of costly social services in the US while contributing nothing to the pot. The drug trade (I guess that fits in with crime). Traffic/driving issues.

Illegal immigration costs California billions, and that's probably conservative.

I am also certain this same pattern is repeated in Arizona, New Mexico and (in particular) Texas.

Don't these people also bring in revenues to the state through the various taxes that they have to pay? Or business to local store owners? How about the cheap labor that allows certain businesses to thrive

As for the social services argument, it seems your issue would be more with poor people than illegals. They take advantage of costly social services while contributing nothing to the pot as well. Cutting back on those services in general would seem to alleviate this problem.

I agree with the other arguments except the jobs one. I think it's somewhat silly when people complain about that. But traffic and overpopulation in areas would be an issue. I'm definitely for better enforcement of our borders but I do think the hardcore groups hurt the cause and spread apocalyptic jibberish to muddy their point.

Chief Rum

05-03-2009, 06:39 PM

Don't these people also bring in revenues to the state through the various taxes that they have to pay? Or business to local store owners? How about the cheap labor that allows certain businesses to thrive

If you're being paid under the table, you're not paying income tax. Sales tax on purchases isn't enough to justify wholesale usage of the system, while contributing comparatively little. That cheap labor can be (and is) done by legal immigrants. It can also now be done by some of the millions of desperate job seekers in California currently, where our unemployment rate is significantly higher than the rest of the country's. And if businesses need to pay under the table, cheap and illegal labor to survive, they should not be surviving, and be replaced by more efficient businesses in the capitalistic model.

As for the social services argument, it seems your issue would be more with poor people than illegals. They take advantage of costly social services while contributing nothing to the pot as well. Cutting back on those services in general would seem to alleviate this problem.

No, poor but legal people pay taxes. They have the same right to those services as anyone. Poor people do contribute to the pot. Cutting back on services to the poor will likely just result in an increase in crime.

I agree with the other arguments except the jobs one. I think it's somewhat silly when people complain about that. But traffic and overpopulation in areas would be an issue. I'm definitely for better enforcement of our borders but I do think the hardcore groups hurt the cause and spread apocalyptic jibberish to muddy their point.

I think with the jobs one, you don't know just how prevalent legal immigration is here. There are plenty of good people I know, Mexicans/South Americans for the most part, who got here legally and are working hard for their families here, and they are definitely hurt by illegal immigration. It's a huge issue for them (as is the likelihood that the recession is actually causing established social classes--i.e. whites and blacks, suburban middle classers--to take jobs they are overqualified for to pay the bills, which shrinks the job market for legal immigrants).

lungs

05-03-2009, 06:43 PM

No, poor but legal people pay taxes.

So do illegal immigrants.

Chief Rum

05-03-2009, 06:44 PM

So do illegal immigrants.

Not the two big ones (income and property).

lungs

05-03-2009, 06:47 PM

Not the two big ones (income and property).

They DO pay income taxes, although I'm not sure what the breakdown is between those that do and those that don't.

Property taxes, well obviously, because you kind of need to own property.

Chief Rum

05-03-2009, 06:51 PM

They DO pay income taxes, although I'm not sure what the breakdown is between those that do and those that don't.

Property taxes, well obviously, because you kind of need to own property.

How exactly do illegal immigrants paid under the table pay income taxes?

And the ones that do (i.e. the ones that submit illegal paperwork) can't be paid under the minimum, thus removing the primary advantage to hiring them froma business perspective.

Those illegals I have less of a problem with, although I would prefer they be part of a guest worker program and have an official status.

BYU 14

05-03-2009, 06:51 PM

RedKingGold

05-03-2009, 07:03 PM

There is nothing a prosecutor can do if jurors are racist. He can present all the evidence in the world and the jury will find the guy not guilty simply based on skin color.

Or...the prosecutor just did his job poorly.

Unlike you, I actually am from Northeastern/Eastern Pennsylvania and have witnessed first-hand inadequacies of the judicial system in various Keystone counties.

For example: Judges take bribes to send youth to private prisons - The Gathering For Justice (http://gatheringforjustice.ning.com/forum/topics/judges-take-bribes-to-send)

But, nah, it's the jurors fault for the prosecution's inability to prove a reasonable doubt. Let's leave lawyers who do a crappy job off the hook.

lungs

05-03-2009, 07:04 PM

How exactly do illegal immigrants paid under the table pay income taxes?

And the ones that do (i.e. the ones that submit illegal paperwork) can't be paid under the minimum, thus removing the primary advantage to hiring them froma business perspective.

Those illegals I have less of a problem with, although I would prefer they be part of a guest worker program and have an official status.

I'm not talking about illegal immigrants that are paid under the table.

I'm talking about the ones with fake paperwork but file taxes, which is the norm around here, not the exception. Paying under the minimum is NOT why people hire illegal immigrants around here.

Here (http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-04-10-immigrantstaxes_N.htm) is a link that talks about an estimate of how much they pay in.

If paying under the minimum wage is the sole purpose of hiring illegal immigrants, then it wouldn't make sense for me to be paying them $13-$16/hour but I do. That's in line with what factories pay around here. We are probably higher than most farms, but I honestly don't know of any farms that do pay under the table. The only attempts at defrauding the system I've encountered were some of my employees claiming to have many more children than they actually had. A 22 year old claimed to have 8 kids, and when we told him that would raise the suspicion of INS (even though it probably wouldn't have) he quickly recanted and said he had 2.

Again, I'm sure paying under the table is probably prevalent down where you come from. I've got nothing against punishing these employers. But the notion that the only reason people hire illegal immigrants is to pay under the minimum wage is highly misguided and not at all true.

lungs

05-03-2009, 07:05 PM

You would be surprised how many don't, especially in the contruction and farm labor sectors.

Actually, I am a farmer, so I know a little about that sector.

RainMaker

05-03-2009, 07:08 PM

If you're being paid under the table, you're not paying income tax.
Being paid under the table is not a illegal only problem. I'd imagine most servers don't report all their tips and that there are thousands of jobs that are paid cash and not reported as income. This would appear to be an issue with businesses trying to avoid having to pay payroll taxes.

Sales tax on purchases isn't enough to justify wholesale usage of the system, while contributing comparatively little.
Well 40% of our country doesn't pay federal income tax. In California, those making small hourly wages are certainly not coming close to contributing and justifying their usage of the system. I think it's fine to say that people shouldn't get services if they aren't paying into the pot, but that should be a universal view toward all people who are not paying in, including those who are unemployed (about 10% of California's population).

That cheap labor can be (and is) done by legal immigrants. It can also now be done by some of the millions of desperate job seekers in California currently, where our unemployment rate is significantly higher than the rest of the country's. And if businesses need to pay under the table, cheap and illegal labor to survive, they should not be surviving, and be replaced by more efficient businesses in the capitalistic model.
I think that's a simplistic view of how illegals participate in our economy. Cheap labor has a trickle down effect on everyone. You enjoy not having to pay a lot of money for fruit at the grocery store. That cost is low because they aren't paying high wages for people to pick it. You enjoy paying a reasonable price at a restaurant for your meal which wouldn't be possible without cheap labor washing dishes. Most major companies in this country rely on cheap labor from somewhere. I'd rather it be in the U.S. with a mix of illegals and legal residents than some factory in China where no one hear sees a dime.

I think with the jobs one, you don't know just how prevalent legal immigration is here. There are plenty of good people I know, Mexicans/South Americans for the most part, who got here legally and are working hard for their families here, and they are definitely hurt by illegal immigration. It's a huge issue for them (as is the likelihood that the recession is actually causing established social classes--i.e. whites and blacks, suburban middle classers--to take jobs they are overqualified for to pay the bills, which shrinks the job market for legal immigrants).
If a poor, uneducated guy who crossed the border with nothing but the shirt on his back is able to beat you out for a job, then it's time to look in the mirror and change something. There is a reason we don't see brain surgeons whining about losing jobs to illegals. Those who are losing jobs should probably get more education or acquire a valuable skill. Just being a resident here doesn't mean you should have a job if you are unqualified and unskilled.

RainMaker

05-03-2009, 07:12 PM

Or...the prosecutor just did his job poorly.

Unlike you, I actually am from Northeastern/Eastern Pennsylvania and have witnessed first-hand inadequacies of the judicial system in various Keystone counties.

For example: Judges take bribes to send youth to private prisons - The Gathering For Justice (http://gatheringforjustice.ning.com/forum/topics/judges-take-bribes-to-send)

But, nah, it's the jurors fault for the prosecution's inability to prove a reasonable doubt. Let's leave lawyers who do a crappy job off the hook.

Did you not read one of the articles? The foreman himself said that some on the jury were racist and had made up their minds already.

Shitty prosecutor or not, this case wasn't rocket science. You don't need four healthy guys doing that much damage in "self-defense". If they can't figure out that this was murder, then they are fucking idiots.

RainMaker

05-03-2009, 07:15 PM

Not the two big ones (income and property).
They do pay property taxes in a way. Those are factored into the cost of rent and passed on to the renters.

RedKingGold

05-03-2009, 07:44 PM

Did you not read one of the articles? The foreman himself said that some on the jury were racist and had made up their minds already.

Shitty prosecutor or not, this case wasn't rocket science. You don't need four healthy guys doing that much damage in "self-defense". If they can't figure out that this was murder, then they are fucking idiots.

What if the foreman himself is racist? Since when did the foreman become lord of the courtroom and all knowing about the prejudices of his fellow jurors?

Also, I'm glad you are now an expert on this case. When did you discover this outrage and become so fully convinced that you know everything that occured. After all, you must've been sitting in the courtroom for the trial, right?

I'm glad we can all learn from courageous stance you've taken against this outcome. I'm sure those 14 hours were a lot of pain and deliberation in your own mind.

RainMaker

05-03-2009, 07:49 PM

What if the foreman himself is racist? Since when did the foreman become lord of the courtroom and all knowing about the prejudices of his fellow jurors?

Also, I'm glad you are now an expert on this case. When did you discover this outrage and become so fully convinced that you know everything that occured. After all, you must've been sitting in the courtroom for the trial, right?

I'm glad we can all learn from courageous stance you've taken against this outcome. I'm sure those 14 hours were a lot of pain and deliberation in your own mind.

Doesn't take an expert to know that 4 guys beating someone to death isn't "simple assault".

RedKingGold

05-03-2009, 07:51 PM

Doesn't take an expert to know that 4 guys beating someone to death isn't "simple assault".

Good, I'm glad you agree with me that we need more information before declaring those guilty of crimes. More is needed.

Raiders Army

05-03-2009, 07:55 PM

Doesn't take an expert to know that 4 guys beating someone to death isn't "simple assault".

They did not beat hiim to death IIRC. He died from complications arising from the beating. There's a huge difference there in intent.

RainMaker

05-03-2009, 08:00 PM

They did not beat hiim to death IIRC. He died from complications arising from the beating. There's a huge difference there in intent.

So if I shoot a guy and he dies a day or so later at the hospital, it's not murder?

RedKingGold

05-03-2009, 08:08 PM

RendeR

05-03-2009, 08:09 PM

THat depends really. Did the injury itself kill him? then yes. Did he die of a heart attack two days later? then probably not. Depends entirely on wether the CAUSE of death was the wounds YOU inflicted and if in fact ins hooting him it can be proved that you were TRYING to kill him.

Murder isn't black and white, its not I hit you you die I get convicted of murder. Life is full of shadows and shades.

Abe Sargent

05-03-2009, 08:10 PM

I know this is a particularly racist part of Pennsylvania, but still shocking to see.

I object severely to that statement

Abe Sargent

05-03-2009, 08:14 PM

The white man already came here "illegally". And for what? For pieces of paper. Didn't wanna pay taxes over in England? Guess what? We're paying taxes over here. Nice work, moron pilgrims.

My ancestors came here for religious freedom, not because of taxes.

Abe Sargent

05-03-2009, 08:17 PM

There is nothing a prosecutor can do if jurors are racist. He can present all the evidence in the world and the jury will find the guy not guilty simply based on skin color.

Have you seen Twelve Angry Men :)

RainMaker

05-03-2009, 08:18 PM

RedKingGold

05-03-2009, 08:21 PM

He died of head injuries sustained from the attack.

I do not think this word means what you think it means.

Chief Rum

05-03-2009, 08:21 PM

I'm not talking about illegal immigrants that are paid under the table.

I'm talking about the ones with fake paperwork but file taxes, which is the norm around here, not the exception. Paying under the minimum is NOT why people hire illegal immigrants around here.

Here (http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-04-10-immigrantstaxes_N.htm) is a link that talks about an estimate of how much they pay in.

If paying under the minimum wage is the sole purpose of hiring illegal immigrants, then it wouldn't make sense for me to be paying them $13-$16/hour but I do. That's in line with what factories pay around here. We are probably higher than most farms, but I honestly don't know of any farms that do pay under the table. The only attempts at defrauding the system I've encountered were some of my employees claiming to have many more children than they actually had. A 22 year old claimed to have 8 kids, and when we told him that would raise the suspicion of INS (even though it probably wouldn't have) he quickly recanted and said he had 2.

Again, I'm sure paying under the table is probably prevalent down where you come from. I've got nothing against punishing these employers. But the notion that the only reason people hire illegal immigrants is to pay under the minimum wage is highly misguided and not at all true.

Why are people hiring illegal immigrants than if not to circumvent labor laws? What is the inherent benefit gained from hiring illegal immigrants that you don't get from hiring legal immigrants and workers? If the reason is not money, why is it being done?

Chief Rum

05-03-2009, 08:22 PM

Actually, I am a farmer, so I know a little about that sector.

But you're in Wisconsin. I'm sure farming is different down here in SoCal than it is up there.

RainMaker

05-03-2009, 08:27 PM

I do not think this word means what you think it means.
Not my choice of words. The choice of the police, doctors, and prosecutors.

RedKingGold

05-03-2009, 08:31 PM

Not my choice of words. The choice of the police, doctors, and prosecutors.

Yes, when they are talking about "supporting" or "prolonging" something, not in the context you are using.

RainMaker

05-03-2009, 08:34 PM

Yes, when they are talking about "supporting" or "prolonging" something, not in the context you are using.
Is your argument about the case really coming down to semantics and how a random word is used?

I mean if you have some sort of evidence that shows that the injuries Luis Ramirez received during the fight were not the result of his death, then great. But if your argument in the case is that the men should be innocent because I used the word sustained, then I don't know what else to say.

RainMaker

05-03-2009, 08:41 PM

RendeR

05-03-2009, 08:45 PM

He died of head injuries sustained from the attack.

Ok, so I could certianly understand manslaughter charges.

Can you PROVE they wanted to KILL him?

Therein lies the real difference.

Chief Rum

05-03-2009, 08:46 PM

Being paid under the table is not a illegal only problem. I'd imagine most servers don't report all their tips and that there are thousands of jobs that are paid cash and not reported as income. This would appear to be an issue with businesses trying to avoid having to pay payroll taxes.

There are certainly plenty of jobs that are paid under the table, and they are all illegal, yes, no matter who's being paid. To act like this excuses the fact that an immense amount of these jobs are being done by illegals, though, is irresponsible of you. Just because it's not 100% illegals responsible for this doesn't mean it's not an illegal immigration problem.

By the by, I am a server, part time, here in CA, and we're required to report at least 8% of our sales as tip income, in addition to our wages (which in CA is the minimum, not what is done in some other states, where there is a special, much lower minimum for tipped employees). 8% is not the standard 15% given for restaurant service, no, but that additional 7% is also eaten away at in the form of tip outs, to bussers, bartenders, hostesses and the like, so that servers will maybe get away with 3% or so of their tipping wages as unclaimed tipping income. This is as wrong as anyone else, but these servers do still pay in significantly in income taxes, because whereas 3% of their tipping income may go unclaimed, 8% certainly is, and this is enforced by restaurants, because if the restaurant numebrs don't add up, the feds and state come after the restaurants first. Oh, and I claim 100% of my tips (not that you care, but figured I would say it).

Well 40% of our country doesn't pay federal income tax. In California, those making small hourly wages are certainly not coming close to contributing and justifying their usage of the system. I think it's fine to say that people shouldn't get services if they aren't paying into the pot, but that should be a universal view toward all people who are not paying in, including those who are unemployed (about 10% of California's population).

What 40%? You mean the sick, the elderly, children? Every society bares those costs. It's called humanity. All workers drawing a paycheck on the up and up is required to pay income tax. Not everyone is going to get out of the system what they put in. Some will take more, some will take less. Point is, though, everyone's paying in--except under the table paid illegals, that is. Except for transients and those who for whatever reason have given up ever being employed, most of that 10% are fervently trying to find employment. As with the sick, elderly and children, this is a cost any society willingly bares. Once again, none of this leads one to the conclusion that illegal immigration is not a problem.

I think that's a simplistic view of how illegals participate in our economy. Cheap labor has a trickle down effect on everyone. You enjoy not having to pay a lot of money for fruit at the grocery store. That cost is low because they aren't paying high wages for people to pick it. You enjoy paying a reasonable price at a restaurant for your meal which wouldn't be possible without cheap labor washing dishes. Most major companies in this country rely on cheap labor from somewhere. I'd rather it be in the U.S. with a mix of illegals and legal residents than some factory in China where no one hear sees a dime.

Guess what? That cheap labor doesn't keep much of its money here in the US. It sends it back home. So you're not seeing much of those dimes either way. Simplistic or not, it's the truth. The economy will adjust, and life will go on. None of this justifies illegal immigration. It's not the answer to stick with a current problem to avoid a potential problem down the road.

If a poor, uneducated guy who crossed the border with nothing but the shirt on his back is able to beat you out for a job, then it's time to look in the mirror and change something. There is a reason we don't see brain surgeons whining about losing jobs to illegals. Those who are losing jobs should probably get more education or acquire a valuable skill. Just being a resident here doesn't mean you should have a job if you are unqualified and unskilled.

The people being beat out for those jobs are most often not Americans, but illegal immigrants. Read the part you quoted of me to which this is a response to. These are legal immigrants who did things the right way and came to this country for a chance at a better life, and they are losing their jobs to their own former countrymen, who are here because they broke the law to get here and are getting paid less than what legal immigrants are able to take as honest, tax paying employees.

RendeR

05-03-2009, 08:47 PM

It is money, but it's not to civumvent labor laws. It's because it can be pretty tough to find people willing to do crappy jobs without hiring illegals. There just isn't a line waiting outside the door with people who want to wash dishes, mow lawns, or pick fruit for low wages.

In Socal There indeed IS a line. On damned near every street corner. Illegal and elgal alike. The difference is the illegals are willing 99.999 times out of 100 work for a lot less than legals.

Chief Rum

05-03-2009, 08:49 PM

It is money, but it's not to civumvent labor laws. It's because it can be pretty tough to find people willing to do crappy jobs without hiring illegals. There just isn't a line waiting outside the door with people who want to wash dishes, mow lawns, or pick fruit for low wages.

FYI, circumvent labor laws == money. It's always about money (for businesses).

If people can't be found for a job, than those businesses need to improve their wages, or get out of the game altogether. It's called capitalism.

JonInMiddleGA

05-03-2009, 08:52 PM

Handwringing over the death of a common criminal, it's quite amusing really.
I wish my life were so devoid of things legitimately worth concern that I had that kind of free time. C'est la vie.

Chief Rum

05-03-2009, 08:52 PM

In Socal There indeed IS a line. On damned near every street corner. Illegal and elgal alike. The difference is the illegals are willing 99.999 times out of 100 work for a lot less than legals.

Nail on the head.

Rain, come on out to LA. I'll take you on a tour of the Home Depots in the area, and you tell me if there is a labor shortage.

RainMaker

05-03-2009, 09:04 PM

FYI, circumvent labor laws == money. It's always about money (for businesses).

If people can't be found for a job, than those businesses need to improve their wages, or get out of the game altogether. It's called capitalism.

On the flip side, if you want to make more money, make yourself valuable. Get an education and acquire skills in demand. Like I said, there aren't brain surgeons sitting around bitching about the illegals taking all their jobs.

Labor laws do not equal capitalism. In a true capitalist system, companies would hire who they want for what they want. There wouldn't be minimum wage requirements, payroll taxes, and workman's comp. You can't say it's capitalism for business owners but socialism for workers.

RendeR

05-03-2009, 09:04 PM

Handwringing over the death of a common criminal, it's quite amusing really.
I wish my life were so devoid of things legitimately worth concern that I had that kind of free time. C'est la vie.

Want to clarify this for us Jon? While I understand your sentiment as a puritanical right wing freak bastard, I'm wondering at the "common criminal" notation. Other than being an immigrant I'm not seeing anything in the articles that points to the dead kid as a criminal?

RainMaker

05-03-2009, 09:07 PM

Handwringing over the death of a common criminal, it's quite amusing really.
I wish my life were so devoid of things legitimately worth concern that I had that kind of free time. C'est la vie.

Common criminal? He was an undocumented person. That's like saying we shouldn't care when a guy is murdered who had an expired drivers license.

RedKingGold

05-03-2009, 09:10 PM

Is your argument about the case really coming down to semantics and how a random word is used?

I mean if you have some sort of evidence that shows that the injuries Luis Ramirez received during the fight were not the result of his death, then great. But if your argument in the case is that the men should be innocent because I used the word sustained, then I don't know what else to say.

Just admit you're wrong and we'll move on.

Considering your track record, I'm not holding my breath.

RainMaker

05-03-2009, 09:11 PM

Nail on the head.

Rain, come on out to LA. I'll take you on a tour of the Home Depots in the area, and you tell me if there is a labor shortage.
No thanks, your taxes are too high. :)

If someone is sitting in a Home Depot parking lot who is uneducated and unskilled, is it not their fault too? I guess I look at it a different way. If you're competing with these illegals for jobs, it's probably time to make yourself more valuable in the work force. You can't demand higher pay for jobs that require nothing but a working pulse.

JonInMiddleGA

05-03-2009, 09:11 PM

Common criminal? He was an undocumented person. That's like saying we shouldn't care when a guy is murdered who had an expired drivers license.

I'm sorry, perhaps I've misunderstood both the thread title and the explicit reference in the linked article.

So I'll ask a simple question or two, maybe I'm working from bad info somewhere.
1) Was he in the country legally?

2) Was his presence in the country legal at any point? (i.e. did he maybe enter legally and then overstay a visa or something like that)

I'm working from the understanding that the answer to both question is no, but please straighten me out if that's not right.

lungs

05-03-2009, 09:12 PM

Why are people hiring illegal immigrants than if not to circumvent labor laws? What is the inherent benefit gained from hiring illegal immigrants that you don't get from hiring legal immigrants and workers? If the reason is not money, why is it being done?

Speaking only from my own point of view, we are essentially competing with factories, as my farm is essentially a milk factory.

Normal factories can pick and choose when it can shut down or produce at a lower capacity. My factory is dealing with living and breathing animals that the switch can't simply be turned off. We are operating 365 days a year, 24 hours a day.

So given the choice between a similar paying factory job that is a day job with weekends off, and a farming job that entails working plenty of nights and weekends, which would be more attractive? Oh and in most factory jobs, getting covered with manure isn't part of the normal day.

Temporary workers fit my operation very well. For the most part, they are here to work and that's about it. Their families remain in their native country so they don't desire time off on weekends to spend with their families or normal working hours.

I also believe I am getting a higher quality worker. I'd essentially be scraping the bottom of the barrel by hiring American workers. The unemployable in many cases. The economy hasn't hit this area as hard as SoCal. The Nicaraguans I hire are from families that I've worked closely with for the past three or four years. They take turns coming to the United States and bring a brother or cousin here a month or two before they leave in order to train them before their departure. With Americans, it's usually two weeks notice and there you're stuck looking for somebody. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but when you have an opportunity to have a seamless transition, why not take it?

The language barrier is not a problem in my case either, as I am semi-fluent in Spanish and also have two bilingual people on staff (both Mexican). I could go on and on about advantages to hiring the people that I hire and it has nothing to do with paying a lower wage.

But you're in Wisconsin. I'm sure farming is different down here in SoCal than it is up there.

In terms of dairy farming, the labor practices are fairly similar between California and Wisconsin. Now when you talk about produce farming, that is probably where the differences come in.

RainMaker

05-03-2009, 09:13 PM

Just admit you're wrong and we'll move on.

Considering your track record, I'm not holding my breath.
Wrong on what? I stated that he died because a group of people beat the living shit out of him. You are the one trying to say it was some doctor's error that not even the defense attorneys brought up.

Schmidty

05-03-2009, 09:15 PM

Handwringing over the death of a common criminal, it's quite amusing really.

I'm really clad Christ didn't feel same way about those two guys on the crosses next to him.

RainMaker

05-03-2009, 09:16 PM

I'm sorry, perhaps I've misunderstood both the thread title and the explicit reference in the linked article.

So I'll ask a simple question or two, maybe I'm working from bad info somewhere.
1) Was he in the country legally?

2) Was his presence in the country legal at any point? (i.e. did he maybe enter legally and then overstay a visa or something like that)

I'm working from the understanding that the answer to both question is no, but please straighten me out if that's not right.

You are correct. And I'm saying it's completely fucking crazy to believe murder is an acceptable punishment for not having proper documentation. The police officer surely doesn't put a bullet in your head if you drive around without a license.

RainMaker

05-03-2009, 09:18 PM

Lungs, what part of Wisconsin are you in if you don't mind me asking? I got my undergraduate at Winona but spent a lot of time in LaCrosse and even worked in Arcadia for a couple years.

lungs

05-03-2009, 09:20 PM

Lungs, what part of Wisconsin are you in if you don't mind me asking? I got my undergraduate at Winona but spent a lot of time in LaCrosse and even worked in Arcadia for a couple years.

About a half hour northwest of Madison.

Chief Rum

05-03-2009, 09:22 PM

On the flip side, if you want to make more money, make yourself valuable. Get an education and acquire skills in demand. Like I said, there aren't brain surgeons sitting around bitching about the illegals taking all their jobs.

Labor laws do not equal capitalism. In a true capitalist system, companies would hire who they want for what they want. There wouldn't be minimum wage requirements, payroll taxes, and workman's comp. You can't say it's capitalism for business owners but socialism for workers.

The people who do these jobs, getting an education and acquiring in demand skills is not an easy option, and for some, isn't available at all. Try to tell the hard working legal emigre from Mexico that to save his job washing dishes he's about to lose to an illegal immigrant, he's going to have to stop working his second job--which he can't afford to lose so he can feed his family--so he can go to school--which he can't afford--to get the education you say is there and available for him.

This is an irrelevant point to the discussion, and I am not sure why you're bringing it up, except perhaps to give yourself straw man fuel, when the real merits of your argument are lacking. Remember, the original point is that illegal immigration is a problem and represents a serious burden for some states. Current residents improving their education or their job skills, while fine and dandy, has absolutely nothing to do with the illegal immigration problem, which would still exist either way. So stop arguing something pointless and get back on the subject.

We don't have a true capitalistic society, but a general one. It's capitalism within the confines of the laws the government places on it, which includes labor laws. These laws are there to protect workers, and, yes, citizens. Legal ones who pay taxes. These laws also protect legal immigrants, BTW. Within the confines of that system, though, we do indeed have capitalism as our basic system of economics, and in that system it is survival of the fittest. If businesses can't get by without breaking the rules, they should not survive. And if you think other companies won't come in to replace them just fine, you're fooling yourself.

RendeR

05-03-2009, 09:24 PM

Wrong on what? I stated that he died because a group of people beat the living shit out of him. You are the one trying to say it was some doctor's error that not even the defense attorneys brought up.

See you're wrong in that you're arguing that the situation fits a murder charge. You're saying they should be convicted of murder as charged, when the articles I just read through seem more like a teen brawl that got out of hand. Murder requires intent to kill (in most cases) and if the DA was smarter than the average turnip he would have gone for multiple charges of manslaughter and probably gotten his convictions. But Manslaughter doesn't make big headlines so based on what I've read it looks like the prosecutor's office fucked themselves.

JonInMiddleGA

05-03-2009, 09:25 PM

You are correct. And I'm saying it's completely fucking crazy to believe murder is an acceptable punishment for not having proper documentation.

And I'm saying it's completely fucking crazy to waste time worrying about a common criminal, which is what this piece of shit became when he crossed the border illegally.

Good riddance, they ought to pin medals on these guys for doing what our chickenshit politicians lack the balls to do as they should have in the first place. We ought to be paying them bounties for their public service, not putting them on trial.

edit to add: I shed nary a tear when a homeowner manages to kill a burglar, why on earth would anyone in their right mind give a rat's ass when someone does the same thing to someone who illegally entered the country instead of a home?

Abe Sargent

05-03-2009, 09:28 PM

I'm really clad Christ didn't feel same way about those two guys on the crosses next to him.

Schmidty with the win.

Chief Rum

05-03-2009, 09:29 PM

No thanks, your taxes are too high. :)

If someone is sitting in a Home Depot parking lot who is uneducated and unskilled, is it not their fault too? I guess I look at it a different way. If you're competing with these illegals for jobs, it's probably time to make yourself more valuable in the work force. You can't demand higher pay for jobs that require nothing but a working pulse.

If someone is uneducated and unskilled, that can be because of the choices they made, but is also likely the lack of choices they were given. You do look at it in a different way. You believe that there are jobs in this country only fit for illegals to do. I believe that if a job needs doing that a business will pay for because it will generate revenue, that it is worthy of being done by anyone, and paid to the level of its value in generating said revenue. And that that by legal requirement is done within the realm of labor law (and thus by legal workers). It's not that people who are unskilled/uneducated should be able to be better than illegals at that job, it's that they shouldn't have to compete with those illegal workers in the first place. It's not their job to protect their right to earn a living--it's the government's.

And believe it or not, a "working pulse" is all that's needed to draw a minimum wage in this country. If you have a problem with where that wage level is set, your problem is not here, but with your Congressman.

RendeR

05-03-2009, 09:35 PM

And I'm saying it's completely fucking crazy to waste time worrying about a common criminal, which is what this piece of shit became when he crossed the border illegally.

Good riddance, they ought to pin medals on these guys for doing what our chickenshit politicians lack the balls to do as they should have in the first place. We ought to be paying them bounties for their public service, not putting them on trial.

edit to add: I shed nary a tear when a homeowner manages to kill a burglar, why on earth would anyone in their right mind give a rat's ass when someone does the same thing to someone who illegally entered the country instead of a home?

Wow Jon, just fucking wow. With as little as I think of you ever, you mange to somehow prove what an utter and complete waste of human flesh you really are time and time again.

RainMaker

05-03-2009, 09:36 PM

The people who do these jobs, getting an education and acquiring in demand skills is not an easy option, and for some, isn't available at all. Try to tell the hard working legal emigre from Mexico that to save his job washing dishes he's about to lose to an illegal immigrant, he's going to have to stop working his second job--which he can't afford to lose so he can feed his family--so he can go to school--which he can't afford--to get the education you say is there and available for him.

This is an irrelevant point to the discussion, and I am not sure why you're bringing it up, except perhaps to give yourself straw man fuel, when the real merits of your argument are lacking. Remember, the original point is that illegal immigration is a problem and represents a serious burden for some states. Current residents improving their education or their job skills, while fine and dandy, has absolutely nothing to do with the illegal immigration problem, which would still exist either way. So stop arguing something pointless and get back on the subject.

We don't have a true capitalistic society, but a general one. It's capitalism within the confines of the laws the government places on it, which includes labor laws. These laws are there to protect workers, and, yes, citizens. Legal ones who pay taxes. These laws also protect legal immigrants, BTW. Within the confines of that system, though, we do indeed have capitalism as our basic system of economics, and in that system it is survival of the fittest. If businesses can't get by without breaking the rules, they should not survive. And if you think other companies won't come in to replace them just fine, you're fooling yourself.

You said that those who can't compete should go out of business. I said those who can't qualify for a job should not have one. That is capitalism to me and if you want to use that in your argument you should use it both ways.

In any event, I agree that illegal immigration is a problem. I have no doubt it costs a lot of money and causes some issues. But I do think some of those issues get blown out of proportion and the other side is not presented fairly.

First, on your argument that businesses that need to hire illegals to stay around shouldn't be in business. The problem is that it's not an equal playing ground. If I own a grape farm and hire legal workers and follow all the rules, but you hire illegals on your grape farm, there is no way I can compete with you. So you'd have to find some way to universally stop the problem to avoid unfair competition. I just don't know how that's possible at the moment.

The other argument is that we've all grown accustomed to getting things rather cheap. I like being able to pick up an orange at the grocery store for 49 cents. Eliminating illegals means higher prices on a lot of things we purchase in our daily lives. When labor costs go up, it gets passed on to the consumer. So it's nice to be able to say that the unskilled, uneducated legal worker has a job now, but you probably aren't going to be happy seeing your monthly expenses go up 5% or so.

I just don't think illegal immigration is a black and white issue. It certainly needs some solutions and I'm all for protecting our borders. But I also know there are beneficial aspects to it that every American enjoys.

lungs

05-03-2009, 09:40 PM

The other argument is that we've all grown accustomed to getting things rather cheap. I like being able to pick up an orange at the grocery store for 49 cents.

We could always import more of our food. Of course I'm extremely biased, but one of the best bumper stickers I've ever seen said "If you love imported oil, you'll love imported food."

Not to mention countries like China that can't even get dog food right.

RainMaker

05-03-2009, 09:40 PM

See you're wrong in that you're arguing that the situation fits a murder charge. You're saying they should be convicted of murder as charged, when the articles I just read through seem more like a teen brawl that got out of hand. Murder requires intent to kill (in most cases) and if the DA was smarter than the average turnip he would have gone for multiple charges of manslaughter and probably gotten his convictions. But Manslaughter doesn't make big headlines so based on what I've read it looks like the prosecutor's office fucked themselves.

Third degree murder is manslaughter. That is what they were charged with.

Chief Rum

05-03-2009, 09:41 PM

Speaking only from my own point of view, we are essentially competing with factories, as my farm is essentially a milk factory.

Normal factories can pick and choose when it can shut down or produce at a lower capacity. My factory is dealing with living and breathing animals that the switch can't simply be turned off. We are operating 365 days a year, 24 hours a day.

So given the choice between a similar paying factory job that is a day job with weekends off, and a farming job that entails working plenty of nights and weekends, which would be more attractive? Oh and in most factory jobs, getting covered with manure isn't part of the normal day.

Temporary workers fit my operation very well. For the most part, they are here to work and that's about it. Their families remain in their native country so they don't desire time off on weekends to spend with their families or normal working hours.

I also believe I am getting a higher quality worker. I'd essentially be scraping the bottom of the barrel by hiring American workers. The unemployable in many cases. The economy hasn't hit this area as hard as SoCal. The Nicaraguans I hire are from families that I've worked closely with for the past three or four years. They take turns coming to the United States and bring a brother or cousin here a month or two before they leave in order to train them before their departure. With Americans, it's usually two weeks notice and there you're stuck looking for somebody. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but when you have an opportunity to have a seamless transition, why not take it?

The language barrier is not a problem in my case either, as I am semi-fluent in Spanish and also have two bilingual people on staff (both Mexican). I could go on and on about advantages to hiring the people that I hire and it has nothing to do with paying a lower wage.

In terms of dairy farming, the labor practices are fairly similar between California and Wisconsin. Now when you talk about produce farming, that is probably where the differences come in.

lungs, while I appreciate your experience and perspective on this issue and I find your specific case interesting, the fact of the matter is that it is an anecdotal point of view that may or may not applicable in more general terms.

If you're hiring legal employees at your wage level and getting by, that is fine. If that well dried up, you would have to raise your wages. Raise your wages and the workers will show at some point. It's simple economics.

Now, you may not be able to run your business that way, depending on your bottom line, but that's the way it goes. It's a cutthroat business. I certainly wish you every success and hope all continues to go well, but I'm not going to say illegal immigration is right just because someone I converse with on the Internet might have issues if his supply of temporary workers is cut severely short by improvements in immigration law (and not saying you're seeking sympathy).

I can't speak to the differences between the dairy and produce farming industries, but I think you have definitely hit on one key difference regardless, and that's that you likely got a higher quality of immigrant in Wisconsin, where, as you note, it takes much more will intelligence and ability to make it that far away from home. Your available workforce is correspondingly less. I would imagine the available workforce for dairy farming in California, as with produce, is much larger than in Wisconsin (with a hand in hand drop in quality of said worker).

JonInMiddleGA

05-03-2009, 09:42 PM

Wow Jon, just fucking wow. With as little as I think of you ever, you mange to somehow prove what an utter and complete waste of human flesh you really are time and time again.

It's well established what a waste of oxygen you are, so bat shit crazy that you make even me look entirely sane. It's a sincere pity that we didn't somehow end up as next door neighbors at some point over the years just so one of us could put the other out of their misery. Who knows, maybe fate will eventually smile on us and provide that opportunity. Failing that, feel free to piss on my grave if you happen to outlive me, Lord only knows I'd do the same to yours with delight.

RedKingGold

05-03-2009, 09:42 PM

So if I shoot a guy and he dies a day or so later at the hospital, it's not murder?

My Crim's a little bit rusty, but if the guy would have lived but for doctor's error, then that might be a superceding cause for the death (although both could be charged).

Wrong on what? I stated that he died because a group of people beat the living shit out of him. You are the one trying to say it was some doctor's error that not even the defense attorneys brought up.

You really are a hoot. That statement was not speculating what happened to the person, merely illustrating how intervening/superceding causes (NOT SAYING IT HAPPENED IN THIS CASE!!!11!!) can break the intent chain from the crime to the harm.

If you're going to try and twist my words around, at least try to be "somewhat" accurate.

Chief Rum

05-03-2009, 09:52 PM

You said that those who can't compete should go out of business. I said those who can't qualify for a job should not have one. That is capitalism to me and if you want to use that in your argument you should use it both ways.

The people you say need to improve their education/skills have all that they need to get jobs. The problem is that their jobs are being given illegally to illegal immigrants. That's not their problem. That's the government's problem. The American system of capitalism has to by necessity work within the framework of its own laws.

In any event, I agree that illegal immigration is a problem. I have no doubt it costs a lot of money and causes some issues. But I do think some of those issues get blown out of proportion and the other side is not presented fairly.

First, on your argument that businesses that need to hire illegals to stay around shouldn't be in business. The problem is that it's not an equal playing ground. If I own a grape farm and hire legal workers and follow all the rules, but you hire illegals on your grape farm, there is no way I can compete with you. So you'd have to find some way to universally stop the problem to avoid unfair competition. I just don't know how that's possible at the moment.

So because it's going to be a hard solution, why try it right? Throw up our hands in disgust, and just let everyone do what they want? That's not the answer either. We need stronger penalties against businesses to stop these, and an enforcement agency willing to go the extra mile to nail them to the wall for breaking immigration laws.

The other argument is that we've all grown accustomed to getting things rather cheap. I like being able to pick up an orange at the grocery store for 49 cents. Eliminating illegals means higher prices on a lot of things we purchase in our daily lives. When labor costs go up, it gets passed on to the consumer. So it's nice to be able to say that the unskilled, uneducated legal worker has a job now, but you probably aren't going to be happy seeing your monthly expenses go up 5% or so.

It doesn't matter what you and I are happy about. If costs up go up, they go up. Eventually, it swings around and wages go up, then the cycle continues on around. This is basic economics. We'll survive. Once again, passing on a solution to avoid a short term penalty is not the answer.

I just don't think illegal immigration is a black and white issue. It certainly needs some solutions and I'm all for protecting our borders. But I also know there are beneficial aspects to it that every American enjoys.

I don't think it's a black and white issue either. I'm much closer to this situation than you, living in CA, and actually working with legal (and probably some illegal) immigrants. These are real people to me, not some story in the papers. But right now, as it stands, the negatives to illegal immigration far outweigh the positives. What's funny is that people in Chicago, for instance, enjoy these benefits, as you say, but they're not really paying the costs, because those costs are generally location-specific to where the illegal immigrants are being employed and reside. So I guess I can see why this isn't a real issue for you. We here in California and along the border with Mexico, we're paying the real costs for the benefits you're receiving.

So enjoy that $0.49 orange. I guess it's on me.

lungs

05-03-2009, 09:57 PM

lungs, while I appreciate your experience and perspective on this issue and I find your specific case interesting, the fact of the matter is that it is an anecdotal point of view that may or may not applicable in more general terms.

If you're hiring legal employees at your wage level and getting by, that is fine. If that well dried up, you would have to raise your wages. Raise your wages and the workers will show at some point. It's simple economics.

Now, you may not be able to run your business that way, depending on your bottom line, but that's the way it goes. It's a cutthroat business. I certainly wish you every success and hope all continues to go well, but I'm not going to say illegal immigration is right just because someone I converse with on the Internet might have issues if his supply of temporary workers is cut severely short by improvements in immigration law (and not saying you're seeking sympathy).

I can't speak to the differences between the dairy and produce farming industries, but I think you have definitely hit on one key difference regardless, and that's that you likely got a higher quality of immigrant in Wisconsin, where, as you note, it takes much more will intelligence and ability to make it that far away from home. Your available workforce is correspondingly less. I would imagine the available workforce for dairy farming in California, as with produce, is much larger than in Wisconsin (with a hand in hand drop in quality of said worker).

Allow me also to point out the other intricacy of the situation.

We can all agree that the government is very lax with immigration status, right? Discrimination in hiring is a bad thing, right?

So when I completely turned my crew over this February, each of them told me they had replacements. So I asked these each of these prospective employees if they have a Green Card and a Social Security Card, and all of them say they indeed have both. When presented the cards to fill out paperwork, the Green Card has the proper hologram and the Social Security card doesn't appear fabricated.

I hire all of them, and they fill out all the proper paperwork, including an I-9 (worker eligibility). No contact has been made by the government to inform me of any discrepancy with social security numbers.

Everything points to these people being legal, but based on my private conversations I have with them, I know they are not. Legally, my ass is covered. Some may say morally that it is not, but I honestly don't care.

This is all pretty much SOP in the dairy industry in Wisconsin and California. Have the proper paperwork, even if it is fake the government doesn't do darn thing about it.

So if they aren't going to do a darn thing about it, why don't they regulate things some with a temporary worker program?

RainMaker

05-03-2009, 10:13 PM

The people you say need to improve their education/skills have all that they need to get jobs. The problem is that their jobs are being given illegally to illegal immigrants. That's not their problem. That's the government's problem. The American system of capitalism has to by necessity work within the framework of its own laws.
No they don't have all that they need. If an uneducated, untrained, non-English speaking guy is applying for the same job that you are, it's time to look in the mirror. I know that seems harsh but it's reality.

The world is changing. Globalization is taking over. You aren't just competing with people from your neighborhood but with people thorughout the world. Like I've been saying, you don't see brain surgeons whining about illegals taking their jobs. I know it sucks for them and it's a shock to the system, but these people need to put the onus on themselves to make themselves valuable. Get an electrical or plumbing license. Take a computer programming course. Earn a skill of some kind. There are a lot of industries out there that are in high demand.

So because it's going to be a hard solution, why try it right? Throw up our hands in disgust, and just let everyone do what they want? That's not the answer either. We need stronger penalties against businesses to stop these, and an enforcement agency willing to go the extra mile to nail them to the wall for breaking immigration laws.
I never said that. I'm saying that when something is done, it needs to be universal. You can't put tough penalties against people in Wisconsin like lungs and allow people in Minnesota to get off scott-free.

It doesn't matter what you and I are happy about. If costs up go up, they go up. Eventually, it swings around and wages go up, then the cycle continues on around. This is basic economics. We'll survive. Once again, passing on a solution to avoid a short term penalty is not the answer.
Or perhaps these companies will just take their businesses overseas resulting in a lot more job losses and a bigger trade deficit.

I don't think it's a black and white issue either. I'm much closer to this situation than you, living in CA, and actually working with legal (and probably some illegal) immigrants. These are real people to me, not some story in the papers. But right now, as it stands, the negatives to illegal immigration far outweigh the positives. What's funny is that people in Chicago, for instance, enjoy these benefits, as you say, but they're not really paying the costs, because those costs are generally location-specific to where the illegal immigrants are being employed and reside. So I guess I can see why this isn't a real issue for you. We here in California and along the border with Mexico, we're paying the real costs for the benefits you're receiving.

So enjoy that $0.49 orange. I guess it's on me.

It sucks that you guys have to deal with this more than other parts of the country. But we all have pros and cons when it comes to where we live (Chicago has really high sales taxes) and when those cons reach a breaking point, we all have the freedom to move. Maybe it's punishment for the fact you guys are sitting in sunny 70 degree weather when we're stuck 2 feet in snow.

BrianD

05-03-2009, 10:19 PM

And I'm saying it's completely fucking crazy to waste time worrying about a common criminal, which is what this piece of shit became when he crossed the border illegally.

Good riddance, they ought to pin medals on these guys for doing what our chickenshit politicians lack the balls to do as they should have in the first place. We ought to be paying them bounties for their public service, not putting them on trial.

edit to add: I shed nary a tear when a homeowner manages to kill a burglar, why on earth would anyone in their right mind give a rat's ass when someone does the same thing to someone who illegally entered the country instead of a home?

I wouldn't go so far as to say that we should pay a bounty, but I understand the sentiment of not worrying too much about a common criminal. I'm not willing to fight too hard for the rights of people who cross the border illegally.

Chief Rum

05-03-2009, 10:23 PM

Allow me also to point out the other intricacy of the situation.

We can all agree that the government is very lax with immigration status, right? Discrimination in hiring is a bad thing, right?

So when I completely turned my crew over this February, each of them told me they had replacements. So I asked these each of these prospective employees if they have a Green Card and a Social Security Card, and all of them say they indeed have both. When presented the cards to fill out paperwork, the Green Card has the proper hologram and the Social Security card doesn't appear fabricated.

I hire all of them, and they fill out all the proper paperwork, including an I-9 (worker eligibility). No contact has been made by the government to inform me of any discrepancy with social security numbers.

Everything points to these people being legal, but based on my private conversations I have with them, I know they are not. Legally, my ass is covered. Some may say morally that it is not, but I honestly don't care.

This is all pretty much SOP in the dairy industry in Wisconsin and California. Have the proper paperwork, even if it is fake the government doesn't do darn thing about it.

So if they aren't going to do a darn thing about it, why don't they regulate things some with a temporary worker program?

Agree completely.

My stance on immigration is a break from the usual conservative "no one is allowed" mantra.

I believe that the current set of illegal immigrants has been ingrained into our economy and that removing them will bring about a necessarily strong (but short term) negative impact. As I just said to Rainmaker, I do not believe this is enough of a reason to not do anything. I do, however, believe we can take steps to mitigate this issue.

We need to do two things, in congress with each other.

One, a one time chance at amnesty, ending on a specific date. If you're here illegally, come out now. Fill out your paperwork and become a legal immigrant. Businesses get amnesty, too. If it turns out a whole bunch of your workers were illegal, no questions asked, we move on. Get them documented, get them on a proper pay scale. Include other benefits, such as giving such workers (and legal immigrants as well) an easier path to moving their families here if they are still out of the country. Offer training on "life in the US". Credits toward English as a second language courses at JCs, things like that.

If you do not want to become a citizen, you can announce you're legal and apply for a guest worker visa, on the understanding you will pay taxes, and can go to and from your country, but you are not eligible for citizenship until you choose to apply for that status, and that at any point, that status can be removed, and you not allowed entry back into the country.

Two, on the same day the window for amnesty is enclosed, a new and improved INS which actually enforces the law will start going over every employment record on file, and investigating the discrepancies, particularly ones going forward from the amnesty date or past ones for which there is no new obvious explanation but continued employment evidence. Those in violation, the workers are deported and are never again eligible to even come to the United States, much less work here, and the employers responsible are both responsible on a company level in the form of fines and other penalties, and the individual employers are possibly subject to jail time.

Oh, and the Republican in me shows up--the Border Patrol has orders to fire at will (from that day forward).

RainMaker

05-03-2009, 10:28 PM

I wouldn't go so far as to say that we should pay a bounty, but I understand the sentiment of not worrying too much about a common criminal. I'm not willing to fight too hard for the rights of people who cross the border illegally.
Even if you don't care one iota for the victim in the case, I think people should at least care about having a group of borderline psychopaths roaming the streets.

RainMaker

05-03-2009, 10:36 PM

Two, on the same day the window for amnesty is enclosed, a new and improved INS which actually enforces the law will start going over every employment record on file, and investigating the discrepancies, particularly ones going forward from the amnesty date or past ones for which there is no new obvious explanation but continued employment evidence. Those in violation, the workers are deported and are never again eligible to even come to the United States, much less work here, and the employers responsible are both responsible on a company level in the form of fines and other penalties, and the individual employers are possibly subject to jail time.

That is the problem that lungs brought up though. These guys show up with proper documentation. It can be impossible to tell an illegal from a legal. I understand punishing businesses who willingly take illegals, but how can you punish them when these guys look legit?

Chief Rum

05-03-2009, 10:40 PM

No they don't have all that they need. If an uneducated, untrained, non-English speaking guy is applying for the same job that you are, it's time to look in the mirror. I know that seems harsh but it's reality.

The world is changing. Globalization is taking over. You aren't just competing with people from your neighborhood but with people thorughout the world. Like I've been saying, you don't see brain surgeons whining about illegals taking their jobs. I know it sucks for them and it's a shock to the system, but these people need to put the onus on themselves to make themselves valuable. Get an electrical or plumbing license. Take a computer programming course. Earn a skill of some kind. There are a lot of industries out there that are in high demand.

If an uneducated, untrained, non-English speaking guy is applying for the same job you are, and he's legal, that is capitalism. Survival of the fittest. If he's illegal, he should not be competing for the same job as you. In fact, he shouldn't be in the country at all.

Why have borders at all then? Why don't we all just have one big, global country? Sorry, the world isn't ready for that.

Fact is, we do have borders, we do have separate countries, and we all have governments with the responsibility to support the lives of the people over whom they rule. You keep bringing up brain surgeons and getting skills and ignoring the fact that all that is irrelevant. If illegals came here with brain surgeon skills, it would be relevant, but they don't. You don't seem to understand it's not about the type of jobs being taken, it's about the fact they're taking jobs away at all. Stop thinking Americans are supposed to be better than illegals. That's ethnocentric. Start thinking that the jobs here in the US should be held by legal workers, American or otherwise, and the rest God can take.

I never said that. I'm saying that when something is done, it needs to be universal. You can't put tough penalties against people in Wisconsin like lungs and allow people in Minnesota to get off scott-free.

Here's your quote:

So you'd have to find some way to universally stop the problem to avoid unfair competition. I just don't know how that's possible at the moment.

You're saying it's not possible. You're also advocating the status quo. Seems to me pretty clear you are indeed saying "if it's going to be a hard solution, why try it".

I am saying, yes, try it. Because the system as is ain't working. I never said anything about not enforcing it universally. Not sure where you get that at all. You're once again bringing in a straw man you can argue down, because the merits of actual stance are lacking.

Or perhaps these companies will just take their businesses overseas resulting in a lot more job losses and a bigger trade deficit.

Welcome to globalization, Rain. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. If businesses have the right, as you say, to pay illegals to do these jobs, they also have the right to pay legal citizens of other countries to do those jobs.

So which is it? Illegal immigration is okay and so is outsourcing? Or ban illegal immigration and don't outsource. You can't user globalization as justification in one part of argument and not then apply it elsewhere. That's a double standard.

larrymcg421

05-03-2009, 10:40 PM

lungs

05-03-2009, 10:43 PM

Agree completely.

My stance on immigration is a break from the usual conservative "no one is allowed" mantra.

I believe that the current set of illegal immigrants has been ingrained into our economy and that removing them will bring about a necessarily strong (but short term) negative impact. As I just said to Rainmaker, I do not believe this is enough of a reason to not do anything. I do, however, believe we can take steps to mitigate this issue.

We need to do two things, in congress with each other.

One, a one time chance at amnesty, ending on a specific date. If you're here illegally, come out now. Fill out your paperwork and become a legal immigrant. Businesses get amnesty, too. If it turns out a whole bunch of your workers were illegal, no questions asked, we move on. Get them documented, get them on a proper pay scale. Include other benefits, such as giving such workers (and legal immigrants as well) an easier path to moving their families here if they are still out of the country. Offer training on "life in the US". Credits toward English as a second language courses at JCs, things like that.

If you do not want to become a citizen, you can announce you're legal and apply for a guest worker visa, on the understanding you will pay taxes, and can go to and from your country, but you are not eligible for citizenship until you choose to apply for that status, and that at any point, that status can be removed, and you not allowed entry back into the country.

Two, on the same day the window for amnesty is enclosed, a new and improved INS which actually enforces the law will start going over every employment record on file, and investigating the discrepancies, particularly ones going forward from the amnesty date or past ones for which there is no new obvious explanation but continued employment evidence. Those in violation, the workers are deported and are never again eligible to even come to the United States, much less work here, and the employers responsible are both responsible on a company level in the form of fines and other penalties, and the individual employers are possibly subject to jail time.

Oh, and the Republican in me shows up--the Border Patrol has orders to fire at will (from that day forward).

I don't have a single problem with anything you said. Until the fire at will part :)

Throw in a method that allows me to sponsor future guest workers. For example, if one of my guys wants to go home, and his brother wants to replace him, I could sponsor his brother to come up here and work.

I don't like being in the gray area, and my workers obviously don't like being in the shadows. It'd be nice if they could fly home for a couple of weeks to see their families without having to worry about raising enough money for a coyote to smuggle them across the border again.

There are benefits for so many to get something sensible done but pressure from the fringes of both sides are stopping anything sensible from getting done.

Chief Rum

05-03-2009, 10:43 PM

That is the problem that lungs brought up though. These guys show up with proper documentation. It can be impossible to tell an illegal from a legal. I understand punishing businesses who willingly take illegals, but how can you punish them when these guys look legit?

Two ways. Either every application is vetted by a public agency before that person can be hired, or the onus is put on the owners to do their own vetting, and suffer the consequences if they don't do their due dilligence.

I personally would be for an agency that basically makes the judgment on employment for everyone applying to work, and them issuing paperwork to that effect, and if you don't have the paperwork and approvals, you don't work. And if after that, they still find work, those employers are in big trouble.

And I am talking something more concrete than paper social security cards.

Chief Rum

05-03-2009, 10:47 PM

If we allowed groups of people to kill people for violating laws, it would be a pretty scary place. I mean, pretty much everyone has broken some law. What if someone determined that you deserved to die because you broke a law?

I went a little hyperbolic there. Obviously, they wouldn't really fire at will. But people crossing the border illegally at that point should be treated exactly as they are--criminals. They should get no more consideration from the Border Patrol than I would from a cop pulling me over, and I decide to make a run for it (which can indeed result in me being killed by said cop).

Also, consider this is also a consideration for the protection of our borders. If immigrants can get in, so can terrorists and criminals (the ones who are criminals even before they break our immigration laws, I mean).

lungs

05-03-2009, 10:49 PM

And I am talking something more concrete than paper social security cards.

$150 buys an excellent counterfeit Green Card, complete with a hologram picture of the cardholder.

Chief Rum

05-03-2009, 10:51 PM

I don't have a single problem with anything you said. Until the fire at will part :)

Throw in a method that allows me to sponsor future guest workers. For example, if one of my guys wants to go home, and his brother wants to replace him, I could sponsor his brother to come up here and work.

I don't like being in the gray area, and my workers obviously don't like being in the shadows. It'd be nice if they could fly home for a couple of weeks to see their families without having to worry about raising enough money for a coyote to smuggle them across the border again.

There are benefits for so many to get something sensible done but pressure from the fringes of both sides are stopping anything sensible from getting done.

Yeah, like I said above to larry, I was overstating quite a bit with that last part. But read what I responded to him, that's the sort of thing I am looking at there.

Everything else, yeah, I'm for that. Sponsoring guest workers, allowing such workers the ability to travel to and from their country to here, as allowed (their own country's laws would come into play, of course).

The lack of enforcement and the dependency on illegal immigration are the two big bugaboos in this situation, IMO, and if we find ways to mitigate or eliminate both, this is a problem that would go away.

I am also for easing the legal immigration rules, and allowing more legal immigrants into the country, so long as they have employment. This country, as the cliche goes, is built on immigration, and I think we tend to lose sight of that at times.

Chief Rum

05-03-2009, 10:54 PM

$150 buys an excellent counterfeit Green Card, complete with a hologram picture of the cardholder.

Exactly. We need to find a better way of doing things. Make things more air tight. Criminals will always find a way, and there's not much we can do about that. But we can still make it harder for them, all the same, and increase the punishments enough so that violating them is not worth the risk for most.

I don't think business owners under this circumstance, BTW, should automatically be penalized, but I do think they should be heavily investigated if a worker comes up illegal, just to be certain that due dilligence was followed by the owner in question.

Raiders Army

05-03-2009, 11:16 PM

And I'm saying it's completely fucking crazy to waste time worrying about a common criminal, which is what this piece of shit became when he crossed the border illegally.

Good riddance, they ought to pin medals on these guys for doing what our chickenshit politicians lack the balls to do as they should have in the first place. We ought to be paying them bounties for their public service, not putting them on trial.

edit to add: I shed nary a tear when a homeowner manages to kill a burglar, why on earth would anyone in their right mind give a rat's ass when someone does the same thing to someone who illegally entered the country instead of a home?

I'm with you on this to a point. I am, however, emphathic to some illegal immigrants' plights and what they were trying to escape from. I don't think you can paint all illegal immigrants with the same broad brush; now, if they've been in this country for more than a few months and haven't even attempted to try to get on the path to citizenship, then yeah go ahead and fuck em.

Karlifornia

05-03-2009, 11:18 PM

Colombus Day would be more bullshit. After all, it's spelled Columbus. Accept no imitations. As for the sins of the "white man", you realize that the New World wasn't some sort of sunny-skied utopia, right?

This is one of my favorite pieces of Jacques Barzun's "From Dawn to Decadence":

I'm not saying that it was a utopia, Cameron. All I'm saying is that Euro people weren't here first. At one point, your ancestors were the Mexicans that are coming here now. Don't tell me they all had their paperwork in order. That is insane if someone believes that.

JimGA, what would closed borders do to make this country better that would outweigh the economic benefit of having open borders?

Lathum, I believe that the fact that this isn't that time frame makes it all the more sad. You can't compare times, but you can learn from them. Many of the seminal figures in this country either came here illegally, or were byproducts of those that would now be considered "illegal".

Karlifornia

05-03-2009, 11:24 PM

It's well established what a waste of oxygen you are, so bat shit crazy that you make even me look entirely sane. It's a sincere pity that we didn't somehow end up as next door neighbors at some point over the years just so one of us could put the other out of their misery. Who knows, maybe fate will eventually smile on us and provide that opportunity. Failing that, feel free to piss on my grave if you happen to outlive me, Lord only knows I'd do the same to yours with delight.

Also, let me say this to you, Jon.

I like you in some respects. You may not give a shit what I think about you either way, and that's fine. I know I feel largely the same. When it comes to anything not involving politics, though, I think I'd get along swell with you. We could smoke cigs together without guilt and talk about sports.

But goddamn if we aren't polar opposites politically.

Raiders Army

05-03-2009, 11:24 PM

Even if you don't care one iota for the victim in the case, I think people should at least care about having a group of borderline psychopaths roaming the streets.

You're really blowing this out of proportion. Borderline psychopaths?

On the one hand, if the guy hadn't been here illegally, he might be alive today. *shrug*

Anyhow, it is hard to feel empathy in a situation like this with little facts, etc. My wife tells me I'm a cold person, BTW. (this next part is just me rambling a bit) We defend the rights of animals and kids because they supposedly don't know any better or don't have a voice of their own. So we give them benefit of the doubt. Would we give the same benefit of the doubt to other groups? Why then do we give the free pass to illegal immigrants? They (adults at least) know better and know they're here illegally.

Karlifornia

05-03-2009, 11:30 PM

On the one hand, if the guy hadn't been here illegally, he might be alive today. *shrug*

Kind of an asshole thing to say, RA. That's like me saying to you, if your dad was sober that one night, you wouldn't exist. Yeah, it's true, but it doesn't change what happened. Anyone else, people would be saying "They screwed up, they gotta pay the price, man..accident or not"

RainMaker

05-03-2009, 11:33 PM

If an uneducated, untrained, non-English speaking guy is applying for the same job you are, and he's legal, that is capitalism. Survival of the fittest. If he's illegal, he should not be competing for the same job as you. In fact, he shouldn't be in the country at all.

Why have borders at all then? Why don't we all just have one big, global country? Sorry, the world isn't ready for that.

Fact is, we do have borders, we do have separate countries, and we all have governments with the responsibility to support the lives of the people over whom they rule. You keep bringing up brain surgeons and getting skills and ignoring the fact that all that is irrelevant. If illegals came here with brain surgeon skills, it would be relevant, but they don't. You don't seem to understand it's not about the type of jobs being taken, it's about the fact they're taking jobs away at all. Stop thinking Americans are supposed to be better than illegals. That's ethnocentric. Start thinking that the jobs here in the US should be held by legal workers, American or otherwise, and the rest God can take.
Why not ban outsourcing then? They are taking jobs away from Americans.

Welcome to globalization, Rain. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. If businesses have the right, as you say, to pay illegals to do these jobs, they also have the right to pay legal citizens of other countries to do those jobs.

So which is it? Illegal immigration is okay and so is outsourcing? Or ban illegal immigration and don't outsource. You can't user globalization as justification in one part of argument and not then apply it elsewhere. That's a double standard.

Globalization is fine. I work in that world every day. I'm also not saying illegal immigration is fine. I'm saying I think it has some benefits in our country (such as keeping prices much lower).

My major point was that the world changes, it's easier for people to get places. People can't rely on the government to fix everything when technology advances. If you're getting beat out in any field by cheaper and higher skilled labor, then it's your responsibility to fix that. Whether that's picking fruit or programming.

DeToxRox

05-03-2009, 11:37 PM

Kind of an asshole thing to say, RA. That's like me saying to you, if your dad was sober that one night, you wouldn't exist. Yeah, it's true, but it doesn't change what happened. Anyone else, people would be saying "They screwed up, they gotta pay the price, man..accident or not"

If they closed the borders I wouldn't know you ;(

Raiders Army

05-03-2009, 11:42 PM

Karlifornia

05-03-2009, 11:42 PM

If they closed the borders I wouldn't know you ;(

Awww Detox making an appearance in a thread not about South Park or fast food. My heart is so warm I could just skullfuck you!

Karlifornia

05-03-2009, 11:43 PM

Yeah. Sorry, but I did say my wife thinks I'm cold-hearted.

BTW, I don't know who my genetic father is. Maybe he's the Kim Jong Il or something.

At least you found a woman who can tolerate your asshole ways. I'm still waiting.

DeToxRox

05-03-2009, 11:45 PM

Awww Detox making an appearance in a thread not about South Park or fast food. My heart is so warm I could just skullfuck you!

Aw, Karl didn't get the black dick but he got the ability to be a white dick.

RainMaker

05-03-2009, 11:46 PM

You're really blowing this out of proportion. Borderline psychopaths?

Maybe I grew up in a really tame neighborhood but I never remember seeing 6-on-1 fights that left the other guy foaming at the mouth and convulsing. If they aren't psychos, they are just fucking pussies and cowards.

Karlifornia

05-03-2009, 11:46 PM

Aw, Karl didn't get the black dick but he got the ability to be a white dick.

I've never gotten the black dick, I only give. The crater that used to be your sister's cervix can testify to that.

DeToxRox

05-03-2009, 11:47 PM

I've never gotten the black dick, I only give. The crater that used to be your sister's cervix can testify to that.

Hey message board Jesse Jackson, no one fucking cares what you have to say. I hope your nose quits bleeding up on your high horse.

Karlifornia

05-03-2009, 11:50 PM

Hey message board Jesse Jackson, no one fucking cares what you have to say. I hope your nose quits bleeding up on your high horse.

Hey message board Chris Terreri, I hope nobody here wants to keep their goals a secret, because you have a habit of giving them up in bunches.

DeToxRox

05-03-2009, 11:52 PM

Hey message board Chris Terreri, I hope nobody here wants to keep their goals a secret, because you have a habit of giving them up in bunches.

You are gonna talk about morals here .. How about the one about the guy who cheats on his girlfriend who loves him with some slag and contracts Chlamydia, then he gives it to his girlfriend?

You fucking suck.

Abe Sargent

05-03-2009, 11:52 PM

This thread has really crossed into some nasty territory. I'm not coming back. Some of you people need to calm down. Others need manners. Or smiley faces.

Karlifornia

05-03-2009, 11:53 PM

You are gonna talk about morals here .. How about the one about the guy who cheats on his girlfriend who loves him with some slag and contracts Chlamydia, then he gives it to his girlfriend?

You fucking suck.

Hey at least I didn't have my friends girl suck me off in the parking lot of a bowling alley. Talk about who needs enemies!

DeToxRox

05-03-2009, 11:54 PM

Hey at least I didn't have my friends girl suck me off in the parking lot of a bowling alley. Talk about who needs enemies!

Why don't you go to Western, PA, I read somewhere those people don't like your kind.

Karlifornia

05-03-2009, 11:56 PM

Why don't you go to Western, PA, I read somewhere those people don't like your kind.

Look at what you did, you fucking retarded clown. You just made Abe Sargent uncomfortable. Did you even think of him at all before you started this crusade against people with larger penises?

DeToxRox

05-03-2009, 11:58 PM

Look at what you did, you fucking retarded clown. You just made Abe Sargent uncomfortable. Did you even think of him at all before you started this crusade against people with larger penises?

Stop your slippery slope argument. The fact of the matter is this: I hate you, you suck, and I hope Memphis basketball rots in hell.

Oh shit. Wrong person.

Karlifornia

05-04-2009, 12:00 AM

Stop your slippery slope argument. The fact of the matter is this: I hate you, you suck, and I hope Memphis basketball rots in hell.

Oh shit. Wrong person.

I think this has all gotten way off track. Let's please get back to what this thread is really about:

Mexican people don't belong in America.

DeToxRox

05-04-2009, 12:00 AM

I think this has all gotten way off track. Let's please get back to what this thread is really about:

Mexican people don't belong in America.

/thread

sterlingice

05-04-2009, 12:02 AM

I sense we will see some happy boxings from this any moment now...

SI

sterlingice

05-04-2009, 12:02 AM

You are correct. And I'm saying it's completely fucking crazy to believe murder is an acceptable punishment for not having proper documentation. The police officer surely doesn't put a bullet in your head if you drive around without a license.

Murder is not an acceptable punishment for not having proper documentation. It's Jon, we just all acknowledge that and move on.

But, let's stop with the "without proper documentation". You make it sound like he filled in the wrong box on his visa. Or that he accidentally got lost on the way home one day and somehow ended up 2000 miles away in Pennsylvania in a whole other country.

The analogy comparing it to driving around without a license is completely absurd.

No, murder is still not an acceptable punishment for being here illegally. That's why we don't put people who are here illegally to death. However, let's quit with the euphemisms.

SI

DeToxRox

05-04-2009, 12:03 AM

Oh shit. I thought this was a PM with Karl and I.

Sorry to air our dirty laundry with everyone else. I promise tomorrow Karl won't sign on with a black eye.

M GO BLUE!!!

05-04-2009, 12:09 AM

Don't forget to post about the make-up sex.

Karlifornia

05-04-2009, 12:09 AM

Oh shit. I thought this was a PM with Karl and I.

Sorry to air our dirty laundry with everyone else. I promise tomorrow Karl won't sign on with a black eye.

Yes. I echo this statement. This was all meant to be a PM conversation. See, I just switched over to Firefox recently, you know..it blocks ads and just makes for an overall superior browsing experience. I still need to work out some of the kinks.

Please accept this greeting card as a token of apology:

http://lc.fdots.com/cc/lc/19/19ff7a3560fa213550c7bd444e758ded.gif

M GO BLUE!!!

05-04-2009, 12:12 AM

Oh, and this was the Law & Order "ripped from the headlines" storyline this week.

CamEdwards

05-04-2009, 12:45 AM

I'm not saying that it was a utopia, Cameron. All I'm saying is that Euro people weren't here first. At one point, your ancestors were the Mexicans that are coming here now. Don't tell me they all had their paperwork in order. That is insane if someone believes that.

JimGA, what would closed borders do to make this country better that would outweigh the economic benefit of having open borders?

Lathum, I believe that the fact that this isn't that time frame makes it all the more sad. You can't compare times, but you can learn from them. Many of the seminal figures in this country either came here illegally, or were byproducts of those that would now be considered "illegal".

My ancestors didn't have their paperwork in order? In that case, I'm going to blame the native peoples for the shittiest immigration policy in the world. We didn't have our green cards because the natives didn't issue any. They just let the Europeans just stroll on in and look what happened. I would think after seeing the mistakes that were made the first time around you'd want a much more sensible immigration policy now. :)