Goodbye, Manny: Ramirez to sit 50 games for PEDs

[samifan24]

Per ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4148907) and the guys in the MLB thread. I think this warrants its own thread.

[spleen1015]

Holy shit.

[MikeVic]

Put an asterisk beside that 13-0 home record.

[Ksyrup]

One too many 'do rags?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Two cities in the nation react while the rest of the nation yawns.

[Logan]

sportsdigs...errr, MLB thread...had this 10 minutes ago

haha...didn't even read sami's post, but yes I agree it's a better idea to have it's own thread.

[sterlingice]

Wow, if true. But who else can win that division?

SI

[Big Fo]

Two cities in the nation react while the rest of the nation yawns.

What? I don't like/dislike the Dodgers or Red Sox but he is one of this generation's best players....

[spleen1015]

This is so lame. Manny is a jackass, but it was always fun to watch him hit. Now, maybe he is another tainted phony.

[Subby]

Two cities in the nation react while the rest of the nation yawns.
Good to see you aren't tone deaf on just politics.

[molson]

Two cities in the nation react while the rest of the nation yawns.

Then why don't you go back to the Missouri baseball thread?

[ISiddiqui]

Wow... big story. Wonder how many more will get caught.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Then why don't you go back to the Missouri baseball thread?

Got to talk about the lesser teams at some point.

[PackerFanatic]

Better than more Brett Favre/Brad Childress rumors.

[Ksyrup]

So let's think through the contract situation...Manny's only getting paid $10M up front this year, and I assume he is suspended without pay, right? If this blows up on Manny, does Boras NOT have him void the second year? Would the Dodgers still go forward with another 2-3 year deal at the end of this one, given this info?

Those 2 $20M options he got voided are looking better and better every day...

Also, I bet Juan Pierre is a happy man today.

[molson]

Got to talk about the lesser teams at some point.

Proof that any team's fans will become "obnoxious" with success - even when it the success is a 17-11 record.

[Danny]

I hope Xavier Paul starts not Pierre.

[Mustang]

Better than more Brett Favre/Brad Childress rumors.

Brett will sign today. How dare Manny steal his headlines!!!!

[sterlingice]

Proof that any team's fans will become "obnoxious" with success - even when it the success is a 17-11 record.

Let's be fair. MBBF was obnoxious before the Royals success- just ask anyone in the video game and political threads ;)

SI

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Boras is saying its a "prescribed drug" and not a steroid.

[miked]

Yeah, before we proclaim him the next Giambi or ARoid, it's worth seeing what he actually tested positive for. I have a hard time believing a 36 year old vet who already signed his big deal would be so stupid as to take roids during the season when you know they are testing. But he is Manny...

[larrymcg421]

Yeah, before we proclaim him the next Giambi or ARoid, it's worth seeing what he actually tested positive for. I have a hard time believing a 36 year old vet who already signed his big deal would be so stupid as to take roids during the season when you know they are testing. But he is Manny...

But as I said in the other thread, in this day and age, if he's stupid enough to take a prescribed drug without investigating if it would cause him to fail a steroids test, then he deserves the 50 day suspension for stupidity.

[hoopsguy]

Let's be fair. MBBF was obnoxious before the Royals success- just ask anyone in the video game and political threads ;)

SI

And college football. And college basketball. And, I'm guessing, pretty much any thread where he has more than one post.

[miked]

But as I said in the other thread, in this day and age, if he's stupid enough to take a prescribed drug without investigating if it would cause him to fail a steroids test, then he deserves the 50 day suspension for stupidity.

I didn't disagree :)

I'm just saying there's a big difference between testing positive for roids vs. Ginko or some shit.

[Ksyrup]

Eh, I don't really care whether it's roids or not. Banned is banned.

[JediKooter]

Wait, why did they suspend him? It's just Manny being Manny...

[Flasch186]

I had no idea he was a Ped....truly disgusting.

[johneh]

Two cities in the nation react while the rest of the nation yawns.

Most of the former Indians players from 1995-1997 as still beloved in the Cleveland area. So it will be big news in C-Town too.

[Ksyrup]

This is big news everywhere. Ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

[gstelmack]

I didn't disagree :)

I'm just saying there's a big difference between testing positive for roids vs. Ginko or some shit.

No there isn't. It's like the uptick in cold med usage or the number of athletes who suddenly needed asthma meds as ways of getting PEDs with an "excuse".

[terpkristin]

Boras is saying its a "prescribed drug" and not a steroid.

Oooh I have a conspiracy theory! The physician he saw is a fan of some other NL West team (edit: or a Cleveland or Boston fan who is still bitter about "Manny being Manny"). ;)

I don't care what it was. It's his responsibility (and to his credit, he's taking responsibility) to make sure what he's taking is OK.

/tk

[hoopsguy]

Does the baseball policy suspend on the first instance? Or do they keep it between player/union/testing org and suspend on second instance?

I thought the NFL followed the latter model, but wasn't sure what baseball does. If it is the second offense that gets the suspension then that should significantly reduce the chance of suspension over something silly like cold medication.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

First instance.

[Ksyrup]

No, this is first instance.

[sterlingice]

This is big news everywhere. Ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

The counter to this is that I'm sure we're going to get Manny overload the next couple of days and it's going to be overexposed as a story. I'm not saying it's not big news, but we're also going to be complaining about Manny coverage about this time tomorrow.

SI

[albionmoonlight]

At what point will it just be easier to put asterisks by the numbers of the guys who didn't use PEDs? It might save ink in the long run.

[Logan]

The counter to this is that I'm sure we're going to get Manny overload the next couple of days and it's going to be overexposed as a story. I'm not saying it's not big news, but we're also going to be complaining about Manny coverage about this time tomorrow.

SI

The guys upthread were right: I'd rather be overloaded by a sport that is in season than hearing about Favre.

[molson]

At what point will it just be easier to put asterisks by the numbers of the guys who didn't use PEDs? It might save ink in the long run.

I think it's easier to just assume everyone uses, and thus consider all records and numbers legit.

This still kind of feels like a lottery to me. 2-3 positive tests a year? Those just feel like random accidents, and that everyone else is up to date on their masking agents.

[Oilers9911]

Regardless of the medical issue why would he not go to the club doctor? They would (or should) know enough to not prescribe something that is banned.

[sterlingice]

The guys upthread were right: I'd rather be overloaded by a sport that is in season than hearing about Favre.

Very, very true :)

And my biased self would rather hear about baseball above any other sport. (EDIT: had "unbiased")
(Just not these types of stories...)

SI

[molson]

Regardless of the medical issue why would he not go to the club doctor? They would (or should) know enough to not prescribe something that is banned.

I think you answered your own question there.

[sterlingice]

This still kind of feels like a lottery to me. 2-3 positive tests a year? Those just feel like random accidents, and that everyone else is up to date on their masking agents.

Sounds a lot more likely by the day. And, frankly, that's a shame because I'm sure there are players out there not using. But they don't/won't speak up and I'm really starting to think the number using far outnumbers the ones not using whereas I was thinking the opposite for a very long time.

SI

[Oilers9911]

Yes, perhaps I did.

[Atocep]

Wow, if true. But who else can win that division?

SI


No one. They should still be in 1st when he gets back. The rest of the West is that bad.

[albionmoonlight]

Regardless of the medical issue why would he not go to the club doctor? They would (or should) know enough to not prescribe something that is banned.

Or, even if the club doctor does it, you would think that the player would have a great excuse upon getting caught. Certainly you would think that a player would have a great claim for not losing his salary during a suspension if all he did was take what the team doctor gave him.

[Ksyrup]

The counter to this is that I'm sure we're going to get Manny overload the next couple of days and it's going to be overexposed as a story. I'm not saying it's not big news, but we're also going to be complaining about Manny coverage about this time tomorrow.

SI

That really has nothing to do with whether this is a story that only NY/Boston and LA care about, while the rest of us think it's no big deal and too much is being made of it. Whether it gets run into the ground from this point forward is pretty much a given, isn't it? That's ESPN's MO these days.

[Lathum]

fucker.

Have him on both fantasy teams.

[Lathum]

That really has nothing to do with whether this is a story that only NY/Boston and LA care about, while the rest of us think it's no big deal and too much is being made of it. Whether it gets run into the ground from this point forward is pretty much a given, isn't it? That's ESPN's MO these days.

very true. I have pretty much completely stopped watching ESPN for that reason.

[ISiddiqui]

That really has nothing to do with whether this is a story that only NY/Boston and LA care about, while the rest of us think it's no big deal and too much is being made of it. Whether it gets run into the ground from this point forward is pretty much a given, isn't it? That's ESPN's MO these days.

Of course they are going to run it into the ground, but, quite obviously, the best hitter on the team with the best record in baseball... in addition to him being considered a sure thing first ballot Hall of Famer... means its a pretty sizable deal.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Source: Ramirez's substance a sexual enhancer - MLB - Yahoo! Sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ys-ramirezsuspension050709&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

Dear Lord, let him testing positive for Enzyte be true.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Source: Ramirez's substance a sexual enhancer - MLB - Yahoo! Sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ys-ramirezsuspension050709&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

Dear Lord, let him testing positive for Enzyte be true.

I think we can all agree that carrying around a bigger bat than your competitors is definitely an advantage that can't be allowed.

[gstelmack]

very true. I have pretty much completely stopped watching ESPN for that reason.

I had ESPN-News on yesterday while home for a bit, and I turned it off when they flat out admitted that they were going to be non-stop on the Brett Favre story for the next few hours...

[Ksyrup]

Of course they are going to run it into the ground, but, quite obviously, the best hitter on the team with the best record in baseball... in addition to him being considered a sure thing first ballot Hall of Famer... means its a pretty sizable deal.

That's the whole point. The original comment I responded to claimed it was a big deal on the coasts but a yawnfest to the rest of the country. Uh...no.

[ISiddiqui]

That's the whole point. The original comment I responded to claimed it was a big deal on the coasts but a yawnfest to the rest of the country. Uh...no.

I know... I just think it needs to be reiterated for those individuals.

[bulletsponge]

Two cities in the nation react while the rest of the nation yawns.

no, many are laughing

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Source: Ramirez's substance a sexual enhancer - MLB - Yahoo! Sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ys-ramirezsuspension050709&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

Dear Lord, let him testing positive for Enzyte be true.

ESPN News just reported the drug he tested positive for was a women's fertility drug steroid-users use to help restart their bodies. Bonds, Giambi and others reportedly used it.

[bulletsponge]

maybe he was trying to get pregnant?

[lordscarlet]

This feels like when a disaster occurs.. there are a ton of reports flying about. I think we'll look back later and laugh at some of the accusations. Someone is bound to hit the right information, but there's no way all of these stories are true.

[Dr. Sak]

ESPN News just reported the drug he tested positive for was a women's fertility drug steroid-users use to help restart their bodies. Bonds, Giambi and others reportedly used it.

No wonder he had Bitch Tits

[Passacaglia]

This feels like when a disaster occurs.. there are a ton of reports flying about. I think we'll look back later and laugh at some of the accusations. Someone is bound to hit the right information, but there's no way all of these stories are true.

bulletsponge.com reports that Manny was obsessed with getting pregnant...told teammates every day about what life would be once baby was on the way...

[albionmoonlight]

bulletsponge.com reports that Manny was obsessed with getting pregnant...told teammates every day about what life would be once baby was on the way...

I can picture this, and it makes me laugh. Thanks.

[Karlifornia]

Sweeeeeeet. The Giants should take a couple prospects for a big bat now, and make up some ground.

[Fidatelo]

I think its pretty safe to assume that almost every big name guy in baseball either is still or once was on juice. Sad.

I think the same thing applies to football.

Not sure where NBA and NHL fall. The fan in me wants to think that most of those guys are clean, but the realist in me fears that those leagues simply have inadequate testing to have ever made it appear to be the issue it is in NFL/MLB.

When it comes to sports, I wish I was 10 again :(

[ISiddiqui]

maybe he was trying to get pregnant?

Manny being Manny ;).

[Drake]

Source: Ramirez's substance a sexual enhancer - MLB - Yahoo! Sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ys-ramirezsuspension050709&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

Dear Lord, let him testing positive for Enzyte be true.

If this is (on some odd chance) true, it would at least explain why he went to a private physician rather than a club doctor for this particular legitimate medical problem. Not really the sort of issue you'd want bantered around the clubhouse.

Then again, you wouldn't want it bantered around by the national media, either...so it looks like a big FAIL on all counts.

[kcchief19]

I think its pretty safe to assume that almost every big name guy in baseball either is still or once was on juice. Sad.

I think the same thing applies to football.

We'll probably find out for sure in the next 10 years but I think football's steroid test program has been far superior. Maybe everyone is on The Clear or some other undetectable steroid but as big as NFL players are, you still don't see the cases you saw in the '80s of guys who were clearly juicing.

We know the effects of steroids in football in the '70s and '80s from the steroid-induced medical issues they all have now. If guys are getting cancer and mental breakdowns in their 40s and 50s, we'll have a good idea how juiced the last decade or so has really been.

But Manny testing for a fertility treatment drug ... priceless.

[sterlingice]

That really has nothing to do with whether this is a story that only NY/Boston and LA care about, while the rest of us think it's no big deal and too much is being made of it. Whether it gets run into the ground from this point forward is pretty much a given, isn't it? That's ESPN's MO these days.

I'm curious to see how MLB Network deals with this. So far this season, ESPN has been dead to me for baseball coverage because MLBN just blows it away. I'd like to see how MLB Tonight deals with it.

SI

[ISiddiqui]

I'm curious to see how MLB Network deals with this. So far this season, ESPN has been dead to me for baseball coverage because MLBN just blows it away. I'd like to see how MLB Tonight deals with it.

SI

To those of us you don't have MLBN, report back to us.

[RainMaker]

The fertility drug is used all the time by steroid users. It helps eliminate the side effects like your balls getting smaller. There is no chance he was using it for anything other than supplementing for his steroid usage.

The other news is that Canseco is right about another player he called out. The guy ended up being the most honest person in this whole fiasco.

[Ksyrup]

What would absolutely destroy Manny is if it turned out he was on the 2004 list that ARod was on.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

What would absolutely destroy Manny is if it turned out he was on the 2004 list that ARod was on.

I'm a Sox fan, and I have no reason to doubt that he was juicing back then. I think he's already destroyed.

[Ksyrup]

Well, I'm just seeing enough people willing to buy the sex excuse that if it was proven he did something back then, that excuse (which I find too coincidental to not be BS) would absolutely crumble.

[MikeVic]

But I think he has to take the boner pills because he was on steroids... right?

[Ksyrup]

if that's all it is, i have no problem with it. sure, boner pills may be on the list, but it's not like they're hardcore steroids

Like this. How could you be so willing to buy that excuse, given the steroids ties of the underlying drugs?

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

He wouldn't be taking a woman's fertility drug for any reason other than to supplant steroid use. That would be why it's on the banned list.

[molson]

I'm a Sox fan, and I have no reason to doubt that he was juicing back then. I think he's already destroyed.

The only guy I would bet on being clean from that team is maybe Curt Schilling.

But that's true of any team, World Series winner or not.

Still, I have no problem blacklisting any of the idiots that were actually caught, suspending them for life, or keeping them out of the HOF. That's the risk you take as a cheater.

[DaddyTorgo]

Like this. How could you be so willing to buy that excuse, given the steroids ties of the underlying drugs?

i didn't see it was a women's fertility drug before i posted my comment. once i read that i went back and deleted my comment because it obviously doesn't apply.

[molson]

And once again, for the millionth time, the player/agent refuse to take any responsibility. Just once I'd like to see a guy come clean and apologize, and not admit to the only the minimum that's been proved so far.

It's a 50-day suspension either way. Wouldn't Clemens/Bonds/etc have much better reputations today if they just told the truth?

Ramirez and Boras are apparently claiming there was a legitmate purpose here. Is that even possible?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Ramirez and Boras are apparently claiming there was a legitmate purpose here. Is that even possible?

If it restarts testosterone for steroid users then it seems plausible it could also jumpstart testosterone production for someone with another problem.

[terpkristin]

If it restarts testosterone for steroid users then it seems plausible it could also jumpstart testosterone production for someone with another problem.

What Jon said. I seem to remember in the relatively recent past (2008 Tour de France? 2008 Olympics?) that some high-level athlete tested positive after using Viagra.

Edit to add: Ok, I take that back. I did some Googl'ing and it seems that what I read in '08 was that the WADA is evaluating if Viagra could be considered a PED, given that it increases bloodflow, etc.

/tk

[Fidatelo]

Even if there is a plausibly legit reason for whatever he was taking, it doesn't matter. Covering up steroids is the _most_ plausible reason when taken in context of his career.

Meh, whatever. Just another nail in baseball's coffin in regards to my enjoyment of that sport.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I would say that Occam's Razor drives my thinking on this.

[DanGarion]

Yeah, before we proclaim him the next Giambi or ARoid, it's worth seeing what he actually tested positive for. I have a hard time believing a 36 year old vet who already signed his big deal would be so stupid as to take roids during the season when you know they are testing. But he is Manny...

This is the internet there is no thinking before acting.

[molson]

Even if there is a plausibly legit reason for whatever he was taking, it doesn't matter. Covering up steroids is the _most_ plausible reason when taken in context of his career.



Sure, I was just curious whether the Manny/Boras lie was just impossible on its face.

[RainMaker]

Do some research on the drug guys, it's only used by steroid users when cycling off. Just about every major steroid user and bodybuilder uses it. To defend this is ludicruos. There is no reason to use this drug at all.

[Ksyrup]

It doesn't matter if there is a plausible excuse or even if that excuse is the truth. The fact is, he tested positive AND it is for a drug used by steroid users AND he apparently didn't even attempt to clear it like the asthma/ADD drug users did, if indeed there is a legit use for it. He's simply guilty, just pick the reason why.

[stevew]

Im still waiting for them to get Pujols. It's going to happen some day.

[sterlingice]

And once again, for the millionth time, the player/agent refuse to take any responsibility. Just once I'd like to see a guy come clean and apologize, and not admit to the only the minimum that's been proved so far.

It's a 50-day suspension either way. Wouldn't Clemens/Bonds/etc have much better reputations today if they just told the truth?

Ramirez and Boras are apparently claiming there was a legitmate purpose here. Is that even possible?

I'm sure there will also be an apology, not apologizing for the behavior but apologizing for all of us. It will be something like "I'm sorry for all those who misunderstood what happened".

SI

[stevew]

dola-

was there some reason why he didn't sign till really late this year. like I dunno if he may have been dodging a test or something, since he wasn't on a roster all offseason.

[molson]

It doesn't matter if there is a plausible excuse or even if that excuse is the truth. The fact is, he tested positive AND it is for a drug used by steroid users AND he apparently didn't even attempt to clear it like the asthma/ADD drug users did, if indeed there is a legit use for it. He's simply guilty, just pick the reason why.

I don't disagree. I just find the Manny/Boras comments kind of insulting, and they would be particularly hillarious if there wasn't even a possibility of technical truth to them.

Ya, a drug policy has to be based on 100% responsibilty for test results, otherwise its useless. Just put your trainer in charge and don't ask any questions, and don't have any knowledge. If you go to the bathroom and leave your water unattended, and someone spikes with with a banned substance, you're STILL responsible. There can't be any excuses.

[Radii]

Bill Simmons: Manny Ramirez's positive drug test makes the Sports Guy confront his worst nightmare - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090507&sportCat=mlb)

Best Simmons article I've read in years.

[Ksyrup]

Yeah, you know, I've been thinking about Papi in this respect for a while now. It's so easy to see people who came and went through 100 years of baseball to explain away guys like him or Brady Anderson, etc., but then you counter that with the fact that a lot of guys tried to get an edge wherever they could over the last 15-20 years, and it's hard not to think of these guys as tainted.

The fact that it took the players association this long to realize what effect all of this would or could have on them is hard to believe. In fact, they still don't really seem to fully grasp it.

[molson]

Yeah, you know, I've been thinking about Papi in this respect for a while now. It's so easy to see people who came and went through 100 years of baseball to explain away guys like him or Brady Anderson, etc., but then you counter that with the fact that a lot of guys tried to get an edge wherever they could over the last 15-20 years, and it's hard not to think of these guys as tainted.

The fact that it took the players association this long to realize what effect all of this would or could have on them is hard to believe. In fact, they still don't really seem to fully grasp it.

They still vigoursly fight drug testing at every collective bargaining negotiations. They frame the advances there as a concession, in exchange for which they should get back something else.

You'd think it would be something both sides would be in favor of, but maybe the players are right - it doesn't look like business has been negatively impacted.

[sterlingice]

Bill Simmons: Manny Ramirez's positive drug test makes the Sports Guy confront his worst nightmare - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090507&sportCat=mlb)

Best Simmons article I've read in years.

I liked it. He's still a good writer when he sticks to sports.

SI

[sterlingice]

They still vigoursly fight drug testing at every collective bargaining negotiations. They frame the advances there as a concession, in exchange for which they should get back something else.

You'd think it would be something both sides would be in favor of, but maybe the players are right - it doesn't look like business has been negatively impacted.

In theory, it's not their concern whether the bottom line is impacted unless it affects them. That should be the owners' concern. Tho, again, if you badly damage the product, then they're all impacted.

But they won't even admit it's in their constituency's best interest to not have drugs floating around. That's what's so warped about their view.

SI

[Crapshoot]

Let's be fair. MBBF was obnoxious before the Royals success- just ask anyone in the video game and political threads ;)

SI

Winner.

[RainMaker]

Two things:

1) While we all like to trash these guys for steroid use, I personally would have probably done it too. The odds of these guys getting caught was extremely slim and their usage accounted for tens of millions of dollars. I mean Manny has potentially extended his career by years and instead of breaking down at this age is earning $20+ million a season. If you were a utility guy making the league minimum and could bolster your homers by 10 a season and earn a nice fat check for it, wouldn't you?

2) This was the basis of an article on ESPN awhile ago on this hypothetical scenario. But with all these steroids, I think it could happen. A career minor leaguer suing MLB. With no policy in place and one that doesn't really have much bite, the league is almost condoning steroids. They knew players were using it and didn't stop it. So could a career minor leaguer make the case that he would have been in the pros, made a few million if it hadn't been for steroids. That he essentially couldn't play in the majors unless he took illegal steroids. Not sure how it would turn out, but a creative lawyer could make a hell of a case. Imagine going into your job and the boss saying "the guys on cocaine work much harder than you so we're going to let you go".

[Crapshoot]

PS, I really don't care that much. I liked Manny before, I like him now, even if he plays for the Tommy Lasorda Bastard Brigade.

[RainMaker]

You'd think it would be something both sides would be in favor of, but maybe the players are right - it doesn't look like business has been negatively impacted.
I don't like when people use that argument that because attendance and ratings are good, no one cares about steroids. Business is good because we love the game of baseball. It's a game we played as kids and grew up with. There are no players bigger than the sport.

I think we've seen over the years that the business of baseball has little do with their decisions and more to do with the passion of fans for the sport.

[gstelmack]

1) While we all like to trash these guys for steroid use, I personally would have probably done it too. The odds of these guys getting caught was extremely slim and their usage accounted for tens of millions of dollars. I mean Manny has potentially extended his career by years and instead of breaking down at this age is earning $20+ million a season. If you were a utility guy making the league minimum and could bolster your homers by 10 a season and earn a nice fat check for it, wouldn't you?

Then just come out and say it. "I juiced, I got caught, but that was the best way to earn millions, so I'll take my suspension like a man." Baseball has the same "Thin Blue Line" issue you keep bashing cops for...

[path12]

Ramirez and Boras are apparently claiming there was a legitmate purpose here. Is that even possible?

I am beyond tired of the whole "medical reason" bullshit. You know what, IF you want to claim that's the case you've voided your right to privacy in the matter -- I want to see the doctor up in front of the cameras, the tests that were done, and most of all -- why the fuck you decided that a steroid was the only way to treat it.

Until then, no excuses. And really, even after that you still should get the damn suspension. Because you broke the rules.

[molson]

I am beyond tired of the whole "medical reason" bullshit. You know what, IF you want to claim that's the case you've voided your right to privacy in the matter -- I want to see the doctor up in front of the cameras, the tests that were done, and most of all -- why the fuck you decided that a steroid was the only way to treat it.

Until then, no excuses. And really, even after that you still should get the damn suspension. Because you broke the rules.

I agree. I didn't word that post well, I don't think anyone understood my point.

I agree there can't be any excuses. Zero. Even if someone slipped you something behind your back.

It makes no difference on the penalty, and it makes no different on the guilt. Boras wants to mitigate the public perception if he can, and I was just curious if his lie in this context couldn't have possibily have been true.

He can claim this mitigator, though it doesn't make any difference to the penalty, or to most people. It will though, have some effect on some people.

But if he claims there's a legitimate medical use, when this drug doesn't have any practical legitimate medical use, then that's even worse. NOT with regards to the crime of using a performance-enchancer, just in terms of telling a lie that's obviously, 100% a lie, no matter what.

[PilotMan]

This whole story stares logic straight in the face and sticks it's tongue out. As a Dodger fan, it's disappointing, but there can be no place for this in baseball. No tolerance for cheaters. Never really liked him, but liked what he did for the team. Wish we could fill that hole, but Juan Pierre is gonna have to learn how to hit real good now.

[Arles]

Honestly, I just don't care. I'm not a fan of the Red Sox or Dodgers, and this thing with Manny doesn't give me an "asterisk" for any former accomplishments - no more than I said I didn't care about A-Rod's use.

Baseball decided not to police the sport and this is what we have - "the steroids era". I'll still enjoy baseball and hope the Cards win the Series this year. If next year it comes out that Pujols used, it won't surprise me and I'll shrug my shoulders and watch baseball in 2010.

[panerd]

Im still waiting for them to get Pujols. It's going to happen some day.

As a huge Cardinal fan and Pujols fan I have to agree with this. The people around St. Louis are so silly also... they demonize Bonds, laugh at Clemons, say "I knew it" about A-Rod, and then they go on about how Pujols work ethic is why he is monstrously huge. According to them anyone else could be on the juice but they are 100% sure Albert is clean. He is going to go down at some point and it really doesn't matter anymore either. Probably at that point he will just say "I used" and everyone will shrug their shoulders and move on.

[cougarfreak]

Source: Ramirez's substance a sexual enhancer - MLB - Yahoo! Sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ys-ramirezsuspension050709&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

Dear Lord, let him testing positive for Enzyte be true.

Or, if you've used steroids, your body stops producing testosterone. Therefore, you need the "booster".

[JonInMiddleGA]

when this drug doesn't have any practical legitimate medical use

Sorry molson, but that's simply not accurate.

Virtually every medical reference I've looked at today, from webmd.com to several different summaries of medical studies (forgive me if I didn't bother reading the 200 pages of detailed scientific data), clearly indicated that the primary use of hcg was as a fertility drug for women and men. While the problem it's used to treat in men (hypogonadism) is something we relate to steroid abuse, that's not the only cause of it.

Whether that's why Manny used it is an entirely different question, but to say that there's no legitimate medical reason for it to ever be prescribed for any man is simply flat out wrong.

[Jas_lov]

I'm in the same boat as Arles. I don't really care anymore. All of these great players who used steroids will eventually get into the HOF so that's not an issue. I would keep watching if every player was revealed to be using steroids because I enjoy baseball. By the end of the season, the Dodgers will be in the playoffs, Manny will be back hitting like usual, and all will be forgotten.

[Galaxy]

Manny's a moron. He actually put his Boston condo on the market last year and wasn't able to move it. He put back on the market, with the economy in even more frigle state and prices falling, with a higher price tag.

[molson]

Sorry molson, but that's simply not accurate.

Virtually every medical reference I've looked at today, from webmd.com to several different summaries of medical studies (forgive me if I didn't bother reading the 200 pages of detailed scientific data), clearly indicated that the primary use of hcg was as a fertility drug for women and men. While the problem it's used to treat in men (hypogonadism) is something we relate to steroid abuse, that's not the only cause of it.

Whether that's why Manny used it is an entirely different question, but to say that there's no legitimate medical reason for it to ever be prescribed for any man is simply flat out wrong.

Cool, that's what I was asking, I had no idea.

[sterlingice]

I think one of the things that's gone overlooked in this is somewhat how it came out. MLB did a good job- depending on what you consider a "good job". And by "good job", I mean that it makes the player look bad. We'll get to why that's in baseball's best interest but it's going to take a lot of words.

Steroid fatigue is starting to set in. At this point, I think another large chunk of the still undecideds just decided that the intellectually lazy "they were all juicing" response was the answer. With each big admission, this is becoming more the norm. It's interesting because I think the ARod test was the tipping point. Before that, there were a few villains but now we've gone to "it could be anyone". And now we're basically in the territory of "it is everyone".

When that happens, it paints MLB, the players, the union, doctors- everyone as a bad guy. You hear lots of "the players are bad for doing it" but it's quickly followed by the refrain of "the owners are culpable for letting them do it". It also lumps the innocent in with the guilty.

It takes a simple logical test of "should I do it" into two. First, why not do it if you can get away with it is bad. But now, secondly, why fight it if you're just going to be punished the same is worse. Each shade of that reasoning taints a different group on the spectrum starting from the bad to the opportunistic to the weak to the good.

The owners have tried repeatedly to get testing put on the books. And every time they've tried, the union uses it as a bargaining chip. It should be in the union's best interest to protect the players' health. Yet they keep using this issue to cut themselves a larger slice of the pie. They've suddenly put a dollar figure on their players' health. I can easily hear Donald Fehr in my head at collective bargaining agreements saying in his nasal voice "This is as much if not more your problem than ours" as he tries to get out from under another $10M in luxury taxes, capped rookie salaries, or a world draft.

Back to the point at hand. The only way to stop this is to get the burden of blame shifted to, imho, where it rightly belongs- the players themselves who are taking the drugs. Then, by proxy, the union who protects and even leverages such behavior must also be taken to task. If MLB wants to win this battle, they have to force the union's hand.

The only time they've been able to get major changes made to the drug testing policy if after Congressional pressure was applied. But, again, like this story- that's the headline. The body of the story is that there was enough public outrage against those five players that testified in March of 2005 that the MLBPA had to cave. Just before the season started that year, the new testing policy was put in place.

This was the time line that news seemed to follow today (cobbled together from MLBTradeRumors and my memory)

* 10:30am Story leaked that Manny got a banned substance suspension
* 11am Story is then confirmed shortly thereafter
* 11:45am Manny and Boras put on Steroid Apology Press Conference (TM) that is farily well received with story about a personal issue drug- this gels with the next leak
* 12:45pm Story is leaked about the male enhancement or ED medicine
* 1:30pm ESPN has story that MLB investigators had "documentary evidence" of a female fertility drug

So, what possibly happened here was that MLB just released the story about the suspension with few details. Manny and Boras put on the patented PED apology dog and pony show with fake and nebulous believable story. Fans are mostly ok with the laughable "oops, I accidentally took a drug on the too complicated list" story and the apology starts to work. However, two hours later, MLB then drops the investigative hammer, leaking the details about the drug which completely contradict even the nebulous story. Once it's leaked that he took HGC, which was packaged to the reporters as "female fertility drugs, particularly since that's how HGC was packaged to said reporters, likely by their source.

They're trying to rush this story so they beat everyone else and, in the process, probably don't do a very thorough job of fact checking. So a partial truth becomes the reported truth, just as with most of everything, particularly heated and time-sensitive topics such as politics and controversy, and that first impression people are given is what sticks, regardless of the whole truth.

Now, no one believes that Manny is taking these drugs for "personal reasons" any more. The people who he was beginning to win back with the reasoning the ferments from these silly press conferences feel betrayed. Everyone else says "I told you so". No one really believes his story and the primary weapon these players have in these cases, the manufactured apology, has already been neutralized. It is unlikely Manny could possibly win this one in the court of public opinion.

Baseball in danger of malaise over this topic as it's not possible for it to blow over. After the ARod fiasco, people are ready to believe that everyone is juicing. The problem for baseball is that few accept that it's ok but they think everyone is doing it- there's no way to win. Yankees fans are going to accept Rodriguez back if he hits, but he will always be tainted.

The NFL has the benefit of players getting caught less frequently as well as a better PR machine. You hear a lot of "it's a tough sport" or, somehow, many people stick their heads in the sand and think that there is less use in football. They can escape this problem- it's baseball's and baseball's alone. The sport has too many players, big and small, who have more money and shouldn't be dumb enough to get caught yet still do.

So now the owners are being forced into one of two positions to get the changes the sport needs: they either have to give up something at the bargaining table for something that should be an internal union matter or cannibalize some of its own star cheaters to feed the public relations beast.

I think this time the kid gloves have come off. MLB is tired of getting a fighting the MLBPA's spin machine, helped by a media who acts like a cheated-on lover because they completely missed this story for 10 years themselves. Baseball investigated the story behind the simple drug test because without that evidence, they knew how it would turn out. We've seen it all before. And we're getting tired of it.

SI

[Galaxy]

I think its pretty safe to assume that almost every big name guy in baseball either is still or once was on juice. Sad.

I think the same thing applies to football.

Not sure where NBA and NHL fall. The fan in me wants to think that most of those guys are clean, but the realist in me fears that those leagues simply have inadequate testing to have ever made it appear to be the issue it is in NFL/MLB.

When it comes to sports, I wish I was 10 again :(

Would steriod/PED use really make a huge impact in hockey?

[DaddyTorgo]

Sorry molson, but that's simply not accurate.

Virtually every medical reference I've looked at today, from webmd.com to several different summaries of medical studies (forgive me if I didn't bother reading the 200 pages of detailed scientific data), clearly indicated that the primary use of hcg was as a fertility drug for women and men. While the problem it's used to treat in men (hypogonadism) is something we relate to steroid abuse, that's not the only cause of it.

Whether that's why Manny used it is an entirely different question, but to say that there's no legitimate medical reason for it to ever be prescribed for any man is simply flat out wrong.


see i read that it hasn't been shown to be effective as a fertility treatment for men though

[Galaxy]

Manny has three kids, correct?

[JonInMiddleGA]

see i read that it hasn't been shown to be effective as a fertility treatment for men though

It was approved for use for men by the FDA almost 30 years ago.
U.S. APPROVES MEN'S USE OF DRUG TO HELP FERTILITY - New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/1982/01/21/us/us-approves-men-s-use-of-drug-to-help-fertility.html)

Whether it's effective or not doesn't change whether it's been used for that purpose. Even the head of the World Anti-Doping Agency acknowledged today that there are legitimate uses for men.
"The drug could have appropriate uses unconnected to steroid abuse, said Dr. Gary Wadler, who leads the committee that determines the banned-substances list for the World Anti-Doping Agency. HCG can treat male infertility and testosterone deficiency, he said.

"It's not necessarily the drug of choice, but those are acceptable uses," Wadler said. "
HCG, popular among steroid users, has other uses - Times-Standard Online (http://www.times-standard.com/statenews/ci_12319211)

And that's all I was saying (in response to a question about the possibility) is that the story is at least potentially true. Has nothing to do with whether it's actually true, or likely, or anything else ... is isn't, on the face of it, absolutely 100% impossible.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Manny has three kids, correct?

Dunno. Maybe he wanted four?

[DaddyTorgo]

well that's true it's not absolutely 100% impossible

[Fidatelo]

Would steriod/PED use really make a huge impact in hockey?

I don't honestly know the answer to that. It never hurts to be stronger or faster, so I guess it would just depend on how much agility/mobility a guy would lose. I don't know enough about 'roids to really make a solid opinion one way or the other.

[PilotMan]

It's is very hard to be on Manny's side in all (any) of this. It fails logic over and over.

He has a job that pays well, he has drug rules that must be followed. He has access to the best doc's via the team. Even if he goes another route and picks his own doc, he can get a waiver for a drug through MLB. He has a responsibility to his employer to be on the same page. He has enough money to hire a team of guys to make sure that he is legal. How do you take a substance from a guy outside baseball, who say's "oh yeah, that stuff's fine, you'll be all right," without checking with anybody else? You don't.

I have a job, and responsibilities to my company. I have no fans. I get drug tested. I am not allowed to work and while taking certain substances. I have to pass a physical regularly, to prove that I am still healthy for work.

All of these things are not unlike Manny, the Dodgers and MLB. If I did what he did, I would be fired and out of work. Possibly never to return to my career. Ever. That my friends, is the real world.

[DaddyTorgo]

It's is very hard to be on Manny's side in all (any) of this. It fails logic over and over.

He has a job that pays well, he has drug rules that must be followed. He has access to the best doc's via the team. Even if he goes another route and picks his own doc, he can get a waiver for a drug through MLB. He has a responsibility to his employer to be on the same page. He has enough money to hire a team of guys to make sure that he is legal. How do you take a substance from a guy outside baseball, who say's "oh yeah, that stuff's fine, you'll be all right," without checking with anybody else? You don't.

I have a job, and responsibilities to my company. I have no fans. I get drug tested. I am not allowed to work and while taking certain substances. I have to pass a physical regularly, to prove that I am still healthy for work.

All of these things are not unlike Manny, the Dodgers and MLB. If I did what he did, I would be fired and out of work. Possibly never to return to my career. Ever. That my friends, is the real world.

I agrees. :D

[ISiddiqui]

Would steriod/PED use really make a huge impact in hockey?

Why not? Steroids tend to help reducing fatigue after workouts (or games).

[path12]

well that's true it's not absolutely 100% impossible

Yeah, but DT, that's a bullshit level of proof. Occam's Razor, man. It may not be 100% impossible that the story is legit -- but it's far more likely seeing how it is a common drug used in steroid cycles by bodybuilders, etc, that Manny's use was related to that.

That's how famous people skate through trials ''Oh, you can't prove 100% that it was his DNA".

[DaddyTorgo]

Yeah, but DT, that's a bullshit level of proof. Occam's Razor, man. It may not be 100% impossible that the story is legit -- but it's far more likely seeing how it is a common drug used in steroid cycles by bodybuilders, etc, that Manny's use was related to that.

That's how famous people skate through trials ''Oh, you can't prove 100% that it was his DNA".

Oh I agree Path. I was just conceding Jon's point that it wasn't 100% impossible, because technically, literally, it is not 100% impossible. It's 99.9% improbable, but not 100% impossible.

[path12]

Oh I agree Path. I was just conceding Jon's point that it wasn't 100% impossible, because technically, literally, it is not 100% impossible. It's 99.9% improbable, but not 100% impossible.

Yeah, I saw that as I read further down the thread. Just cranky today and reacted instead of went through everything. :)

[JonInMiddleGA]

I was just conceding Jon's point that it wasn't 100% impossible, because technically, literally, it is not 100% impossible.

And I, in turn, was only making that point in pretty direct response to a question up the thread about (paraphrasing) whether there was even a remote chance, however slight, that the story was true.

[King of New York]

I think the most likely explanation is that Manny and others are searching out performance-enhancing products that have legitimate purposes and then using them, figuring that if they get busted, they can always claim that "I was using it for the legitimate purpose, not to become a better baseball player." It's impossible to prove otherwise. Manny and Boras probably had their defense argument in place long before he was ever tested.

[Sgran]

Next question: did Manny get busted because he left the sanctity of the Boston Red Sox?

[ISiddiqui]

Next question: did Manny get busted because he left the sanctity of the Boston Red Sox?

Awesome conspiracy theory :)

I approve!

[Big Fo]

Next question: did Manny get busted because he left the sanctity of the Boston Red Sox?
Awesome conspiracy theory

I approve!

And it happened the day before Alex Rodriguez comes back :eek:

[bulletsponge]

Awesome conspiracy theory :)

I approve!

Ortiz still hasnt been busted yet, so maybe.

[terpkristin]

Scientific American's website had a little blurby on HCG today:
Why would a male athlete like Manny Ramirez take a chemical used as a female fertility drug?: Scientific American Blog (http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/60-second-science/post.cfm?id=why-would-a-male-athlete-like-manny-2009-05-08)

Sadly, it doesn't answer the one question I think everybody has: is there a clinical reason it would be perscribed to a male, aside from the post-steroid uses that we've been reading/hearing about since the story broke?

The news broke yesterday (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4148907) that Los Angeles Dodgers slugger Manny Ramirez was being suspended for 50 games for violating Major League Baseball's performance-enhancing drug policy (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090507&content_id=4603850&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb). Ramirez, 36, was suspended after baseball officials discovered he had been prescribed human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG), according to the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/08/sports/baseball/08ramirez.html). HCG is a hormone used as a fertility drug (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/drug-information/DR600381) in women—so what would a male athlete stand to gain by using it?

In a statement released by the players' union, Ramirez provided few details, saying only that the suspension, which he is not appealing, stemmed from "a medication, not a steroid" that his doctor prescribed "for a personal health issue."

We checked in with Andrew Kicman (http://www.kcl.ac.uk/schools/biohealth/research/pharmsci/groups/analytical/kicman-a.html), head of R&D at the King's College London Drug Control Center and lead author of the 1991 study "Human chorionic gonadotrophin and sport (http://bjsm.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/25/2/73)," published in the British Journal of Sports Medicine.

In addition to helping women conceive, Kicman says, HCG can be used to artificially stimulate testosterone production in men, which in turn boosts muscle strength and overall athletic performance (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=experts-testosterone-performance), "but this will only result in a two- to three-fold increase [in testosterone] in the serum for a few days following injection." That may sound like a lot, but doping regimens often increase testosterone levels by double that amount.

For pure testosterone-boosting purposes, Kicman adds, athletes have superior cheats available. "I don't think any well-informed individual would use HCG for this purpose," he says, "especially with the availability of short-acting preparations of testosterone," such as gels that can be applied to the skin. (Indeed, Ramirez was also found to have artificial testosterone in his body, according to ESPN's sources, but was apparently suspended for HCG on the strength of the documentary evidence for his using it.)

The hormone does, however, help male athletes right their chemical balance after the use of other performance enhancers. "Basically, HCG may be used in an attempt to prevent testicular atrophy (shrinkage) that otherwise may occur when using anabolic steroids for prolonged periods," Kicman says. Anabolic steroids are synthetic substances derived from male sex hormones (http://www.nida.nih.gov/ResearchReports/Steroids/anabolicsteroids2.html) that promote improved endurance and boost muscle mass and strength. "HCG may also be used," he says, "following cessation of prolonged anabolic steroid use, to try to hasten a return to normal testicular function," when the athlete would have very low levels of circulating male hormones.

/tk

[Logan]

Today's NY Post had a bunch of player reactions to the Manny news. Carlos Pena, you're my hero:

"It hurts me deeply. For one, I'm a huge fan, so its just sad for sure. When I had Sega Genesis, I used to be him."

[ISiddiqui]

LOL! That's awesome Carlos Pena!