Cops Kill Mentally Challenged Teen Using "Non-Lethal" Force

[Noop]

DETROIT, Michigan (CNN) -- Renea Mitchell said her son Robert wanted "nothing to do" with police, a feeling she said is "nothing new" among teenagers in Detroit.

But she wants to know why police felt they needed to use a Taser on a scared, 16-year-old, learning-disabled boy with no criminal record.

Robert Mitchell died April 10 in an abandoned house in Warren, just across Eight Mile Road from Detroit proper. His death led to a lawsuit and a protest last week by about 100 people on the thoroughfare, which separates Detroit from its northern suburbs.

Police said the teen was resisting arrest after bolting from his cousin's car during a traffic stop, and the use of the Taser was justified. But Renea Mitchell calls her son's death "murder."

"They are here to protect us. There's no reason for what they've done," she said. "There's no reason, no excuse."

Warren police had pulled over Mitchell's cousin, Chris Davis, for having an expired license plate when Mitchell "jumped out and started running," Davis said.

"I told him not to, but he was real scared," Davis told CNN. "He was petrified. He hopped out the car and started running."

Police followed Mitchell into an abandoned house about two blocks away. Officers tried to apprehend him once he was inside, but he resisted, Warren Police Commissioner William Dwyer told CNN.

"They ordered him several times not to resist, and he continued to resist," Dwyer said. "They had no alternative to use what they felt at the time was non-lethal force."

The commissioner called Mitchell's death "a tragedy," but said police who watch someone run from them "can only assume he committed a crime or is wanted for a crime." The officers had been trained to use Tasers on people resisting arrest, "so there was nothing wrong with using that Taser," Dwyer said.

The 5-foot-2, 110-pound Mitchell died after being shot once with a Taser, which delivers a 50,000-volt electric charge. The Macomb County medical examiner's office says an autopsy report has not yet been completed. The Warren Police Department's internal affairs office ruled the use of the Taser was justified, and the officers involved in his death are back on the job. But Mitchell's family is suing the department and the city, arguing there was "no articulable reason" to use the Taser on him.

Police consider the Taser a non-lethal weapon, and Dwyer said it has been "a very useful tool." But the human rights group Amnesty International has documented more than 350 cases in which people have died after being shocked with Tasers.

Mitchell's death was at least the third involving people shot with Tasers in 2009, and the second in Michigan. A 15-year-old in Bay City, about 115 miles north of Detroit, died in March; a Virginia teen died in January.

Other high-profile cases have raised questions about the use of the devices. In October 2007, a Polish immigrant who spoke no English was Tasered and died after a scuffle with police at the airport in Vancouver, British Columbia.

In January 2008, a man died after being shocked nine times with one of the devices during his arrest on a cocaine possession charge. The Winnfield, Louisiana, police officer who arrested him was fired and indicted on manslaughter charges. He has pleaded not guilty and faces trial in July.

While police defend the use of the devices, Warren Mayor James Fouts has called for a review of how they should be used.

"Obviously we have a legal situation, so I'm not able to give too strong opinion either way," Fouts told CNN. But he added, "We need to re-evaulate and look very closely at what it is that we're currently doing."

But Renea Mitchell said she wants to see the police face a courtroom over her son's death.

"When you're living in this world, people die every day," his mother said. "God is my father, and I trust that Robert is safe. Robert is safe, I have no doubt in my mind. I just want justice now."

'No excuse' for teen's Taser death, mother says - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/28/michigan.taser.death/?iref=mpstoryview)

[Noop]

Time to reconsider the use of the taser as a non-lethal weapon? Perhaps lower the voltage.

[Lathum]

Do we really need to have this debate again?

[DaddyTorgo]

boooooooooooooooo

[Noop]

There was a debate about tasers?

[Tekneek]

Impossible. If it is non-lethal force, then it never causes death. :)

[Lathum]

There was a debate about tasers?

c'mon Noop, do you really not see where this is going to go?

[DaddyTorgo]

c'mon Noop, do you really not see where this is going to go?

give Noop some credit - he's changing his stripes

[Subby]

Hey I have an idea! Let's make a post about every controversial fucking thing out there so this shitbag site can continue to devolve into the mind-numbing netherworld of dimwitted over-opiniated doofustry that it so readily seems to embrace.

[Noop]

c'mon Noop, do you really not see where this is going to go?

You mean this turning into a cop lovers versus cop haters debate? Or perhaps someone will accuse me for race baiting?

I posted the article to generate discussion on whether tasers should be reclassified as a lethal weapon.

[Noop]

give Noop some credit - he's changing his stripes

I don't get it.

[DaddyTorgo]

Hey I have an idea! Let's make a post about every controversial fucking thing out there so this shitbag site can continue to devolve into the mind-numbing netherworld of dimwitted over-opiniated doofustry that it so readily seems to embrace.

awww...there's our favorite subby!!!

[Noop]

Hey I have an idea! Let's make a post about every controversial fucking thing out there so this shitbag site can continue to devolve into the mind-numbing netherworld of dimwitted over-opiniated doofustry that it so readily seems to embrace.

This is the off-topic forum. How else will we be able to pass the day if we can not argue with each other endlessly.

[molson]

It's impossible to know the number of lives that tasers have saved. There's plenty of incidents where deadly force would have been justified but a taser was utilized instead. Not to mention the number of people that tasers have helped apprehend, that otherwise would have been able to kill and maim and plunder another day.

I think the focus should be on a "safer" taser. Non-lethal weapons are a great thing in law enforcement. There's always going to be risks, but there can always be technology advancements that limit the risk.

But police do have to remember that they're still a weapon and use them accordingly. Just because certain bullets might be rubber/beanbags, for example, that doesn't mean you should shoot them randomly into a crowd.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Time to reconsider the use of the taser as a non-lethal weapon?

No, but thanks for asking.

[Maple Leafs]

Admittedly, this puts a dent in my whole "We should be tasing abortion doctors" theory.

[Izulde]

For some reason it seems like a fairly high number of these death by Taser cases involve mentally handicapped or ill individuals.

[MikeVic]

Can they shotgun people with those beanbag things?

[molson]

Can they shotgun people with those beanbag things?

Some do, but those can be very dangerous also. They also don't necessarily incapacitate someone.

[MikeVic]

Ok, I just wanted to bring it up because I find those things cool.

[Noop]

Ok, I just wanted to bring it up because I find those things cool.

http://fast1.onesite.com/community.allhiphop.com/user/djelastik/gifs/1208654413.gif?v=77000

[Lathum]

OK, I'll bite.

Maybe the kid shouldn't have run?

[Fidatelo]

OK, I'll bite.

Maybe the kid shouldn't have run?

Bingo!

[Schmidty]

OK, I'll bite.

Maybe the kid shouldn't have run?

Did you not read the article? He was mentally disabled. Jeez.

[Fidatelo]

Dola,

What would be ideal would be to arm police with things like Spider-Man's web shooters. They just web up suspects and everyone lives happily ever after.

[Schmidty]

Dola.

I'm not saying the cops weren't "justified", but blaming it on a kid who isn't able to reason like normal people is fucked up. You do this in all of these threads.

[Fidatelo]

Did you not read the article? He was mentally disabled. Jeez.

He was 'learning disabled'... that could mean almost anything. Dyslexic kids are 'learning disabled' but I'd still expect them to know not to run from cops.

[Noop]

Dola,

What would be ideal would be to arm police with things like Spider-Man's web shooters. They just web up suspects and everyone lives happily ever after.

That would be awesome until someone is allergic to the web itself or claims to have a morbid fear of spiders and all things related to them.

;)

[Schmidty]

My dola is the official one, Fidatelo!!!

[Schmidty]

He was 'learning disabled'... that could mean almost anything. Dyslexic kids are 'learning disabled' but I'd still expect them to know not to run from cops.

Good lord. If he was just dyslexic, I'm sure there wouldn't be nearly as much of an uproar.

Anyway, you stone-casters do what you wanna do. It's like no one is ever innocent in these threads other than the cops. Of course, they are innocent in this case, but I think the kid is too. It's just a sad, messed up situation.

[Fidatelo]

My dola is the official one, Fidatelo!!!

lol!

[MJ4H]

He was 'learning disabled'... that could mean almost anything. Dyslexic kids are 'learning disabled' but I'd still expect them to know not to run from cops.

Knowing it and applying it in an extremely stressful situation are not the same. Yes, he shouldn't have run, pretty much everyone here knows that. But, he very likely cannot be held to the same standard of common sense/reasonable behavior as most people. I say this as the parent of a child who in no way, shape, or form, will ever be able to have the kind of common sense that would prevent him from getting into this kind of situation. It is unfortunate that this happened. I'm not sure it's really anyone's fault. About all we can do is look closely at it and see what can be done to prevent it from happening again without compromising the policemen's ability to do their job safely and completely.

[Fidatelo]

Good lord. If he was just dyslexic, I'm sure there wouldn't be nearly as much of an uproar.

Anyway, you stone-casters do what you wanna do. It's like no one is ever innocent in these threads other than the cops. Of course, they are innocent in this case, but I think the kid is too. It's just a sad, messed up situation.

Are you sure? I mean, it's not like the media to sensationalize things in order to get headlines, right?

Personally, I think we know far too little about the whole thing to pass any real judgement. That's what we have juries and inquiries for.

[gstelmack]

Good lord. If he was just dyslexic, I'm sure there wouldn't be nearly as much of an uproar.

If people want to create an uproar, any old excuse will do.

[Schmidty]

Personally, I think we know far too little about the whole thing to pass any real judgement. That's what we have juries and inquiries for.

I agree and that's why the "he shouldn't have run" thing that Lathum said and you agreed with is just as bad as saying "those pigs committed murder".

[JonInMiddleGA]

Did you not read the article? He was mentally disabled. Jeez.

Which has jack shit to do with whether the use of the taser was appropriate. That's based on his actions when in contact with police, period.

All they've got to work with is a subject fleeing the scene for no apparent reason, running into an abandoned house and then resisting arrest.

[Kodos]

If people want to create an uproar, any old excuse will do.

WHERE ARE THE COLORED CLEATS IN MADDEN?!?

[Fidatelo]

Knowing it and applying it in an extremely stressful situation are not the same. Yes, he shouldn't have run, pretty much everyone here knows that. But, he very likely cannot be held to the same standard of common sense/reasonable behavior as most people. I say this as the parent of a child who in no way, shape, or form, will ever be able to have the kind of common sense that would prevent him from getting into this kind of situation. It is unfortunate that this happened. I'm not sure it's really anyone's fault. About all we can do is look closely at it and see what can be done to prevent it from happening again without compromising the policemen's ability to do their job safely and completely.

As I mentioned in my response to Schmidty, I just don't think we have enough info here to even really discuss it. The spectrum of 'learning disabilities' is so large that we can't grasp from that description alone whether that played a role in this or not. People without learning disabilities are stupid enough to run from cops all the time. I think the inclusion of it as a 'fact' in the story is simply to get headlines, not to really inform the reader of anything necessarily pertinent.

[Noop]

5'2 110 lbs? I don't think any cop would have any problems handling him.

[Fidatelo]

I agree and that's why the "he shouldn't have run" thing that Lathum said and you agreed with is just as bad as saying "those pigs committed murder".

I don't think so. "He shouldn't have run" is a fact. It's why the cops did what they did. It's exactly why the "those pigs committed murder" people would be wrong in this case. It's very relevant.

Now, why he ran is a different story, but it doesn't mean it isn't the catalyst of this situation.

[MJ4H]

As I mentioned in my response to Schmidty, I just don't think we have enough info here to even really discuss it. The spectrum of 'learning disabilities' is so large that we can't grasp from that description alone whether that played a role in this or not. People without learning disabilities are stupid enough to run from cops all the time. I think the inclusion of it as a 'fact' in the story is simply to get headlines, not to really inform the reader of anything necessarily pertinent.

Fair enough. I think there was enough in the article to indicate that he was clearly reacting in a way that was inconsistent with someone who had the reasoning ability to remain calm in a non-threatening situation. The article mentioned his abilities were compromised in a way that would be consistent with that. For me, this is enough to assume that this isn't just a made up cover-story. For you, I guess you'll have to wait on someone you trust to come and tell you the same thing.

[Schmidty]

Which has jack shit to do with whether the use of the taser was appropriate. That's based on his actions when in contact with police, period.

Have you read my other posts Jon? I'm not an idiot. The cops were justified from what I read, especially in a shit-hole like that part of Detroit. I just think that automatically condemning the kid is wrong.

As I said, I think the blame game isn't an issue here. It's just a screwed up tragedy.

[gstelmack]

It's just a screwed up tragedy.

This.

[Fidatelo]

Fair enough. I think there was enough in the article to indicate that he was clearly reacting in a way that was inconsistent with someone who had the reasoning ability to remain calm in a non-threatening situation. The article mentioned his abilities were compromised in a way that would be consistent with that. For me, this is enough to assume that this isn't just a made up cover-story. For you, I guess you'll have to wait on someone you trust to come and tell you the same thing.

I guess it's like this: any time I've been 'in the know' on something that ends up hitting the news, there are large issues with the way it is represented. Either facts are left out, distorted, whatever, but the media in this day and age seem to be more about reporting a story than reporting events. A kid dying from a taser is an event, but a mentally challenged kid makes it a story. The fact that the writer makes no further mention of it makes me question how relevant it is to the event.

So basically, yes, I need more trustworthy info on this one :)

[Schmidty]

I don't think so. "He shouldn't have run" is a fact. It's why the cops did what they did. It's exactly why the "those pigs committed murder" people would be wrong in this case. It's very relevant.

Now, why he ran is a different story, but it doesn't mean it isn't the catalyst of this situation.

You know very well what tone the "he shouldn't have run" comment was in. It wasn't a reasoned argument, it was a "that fucking idiot deserved what he got", as it always is by certain people in these threads. Not saying that's you at all though.

[MJ4H]

I guess it's like this: any time I've been 'in the know' on something that ends up hitting the news, there are large issues with the way it is represented. Either facts are left out, distorted, whatever, but the media in this day and age seem to be more about reporting a story than reporting events. A kid dying from a taser is an event, but a mentally challenged kid makes it a story. The fact that the writer makes no further mention of it makes me question how relevant it is to the event.

So basically, yes, I need more trustworthy info on this one :)

I understand what you are saying, here. Media sensationalism is annoying, but maybe it is a fault of mine that my default position is not assuming it is the case.

[JonInMiddleGA]

As I said, I think the blame game isn't an issue here. It's just a screwed up tragedy.

But that's not going to stop the usual protesters nor the lawsuit from the family. There were two adults in that vehicle (well one 37 y/o adult & another 19 y/o) who did nothing to prevent the incident.

Now maybe they could have & maybe they couldn't have, I'm even inclined to guess it happened so fast they couldn't. But afaic the family has more culpability than police in this instance (based on what we know so far). If they aren't driving a car with an expired tag then there's no traffic stop in the first place.

This is nothing more than the usual attempt to blame police for doing their jobs and it's half past tired.

[DaddyTorgo]

i wonder why the other kid in the car with him didn't grab him to hold him there until the cops could approach, or yell something to the cops or anything. seems like a missed opportunity to avoid the outcome.

[Fidatelo]

You know very well what tone the "he shouldn't have run" comment was in. It wasn't a reasoned argument, it was a "that fucking idiot deserved what he got", as it always is by certain people in these threads. Not saying that's you at all though.

I don't think he 'deserved what he got', so if I implied that by agreeing with someone whom I didn't realise implied it, then I'd like to rescind my agreement.

[Lathum]

You know very well what tone the "he shouldn't have run" comment was in. It wasn't a reasoned argument, it was a "that fucking idiot deserved what he got", as it always is by certain people in these threads. Not saying that's you at all though.

That's idiotic and who are you to put words in my mouth?

In no means do I think the kid " got what he deserved" but in a shithole like that police need to assume the worst. What course of action should they have taken?

The bottom line is police carry tasers for situations exactly like this one, if they aren't going to use them in a situation like this one then they shouldn't be carrying them.

As far as the kid being mentally disabled if his disability was that severe maybe he shouldn't have been riding around unsupervised?

[ted_hughes]

Another question is, should tasers be used on people who cost their team a national championship with a pass interference penalty?

[Lathum]

dola- Police also have a right to protect themselves. Someone flees from a car during a traffic stop police are trained to assume the worst and act accordingly. That act is to apprehend the person with as little harm as possible.

[panerd]

Well it looks like it happened April 10th so I guess some back research on what the kid's disability was are probably covered in a Detriot newspaper at some point between then and now. Can't say I am interested enough to dig it up but I would be interested if someone else did. This does smell fishy like the disability is a red herring.

[molson]

It's like no one is ever innocent in these threads other than the cops.

You must have never been in one of these threads before.

[RedKingGold]

Gators CB Jenkins arrested near bar

Comment (http://myespn.go.com/conversation/story?id=4221947) Email (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4221947#) Print (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=4221947&type=story) Share (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0);)<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> var stobj = SHARETHIS.addEntry({ title:"Gators\'%20Jenkins%20charged%20with%20fighting,%20resisting", url:"http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4221947", published: "2009-06-01" }); stobj.attachButton(document.getElementById("espnstlink")); </SCRIPT>
<CITE class=source sizcache="11" sizset="20">By Joe Schad
ESPN.com
Archive (http://search.espn.go.com/joe-schad/) </CITE>
<!-- end mod-article-title --><!-- begin story body -->Florida Gators (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/clubhouse?teamId=57) starting cornerback Janoris Jenkins was arrested over the weekend and charged with fighting and resisting arrest without violence, police in Gainesville, Fla., confirmed.

Police used a Taser on Jenkins, who punched someone in the head after being told not to.

The incident occurred at closing time near a bar in downtown Gainesville.
Jenkins was named to the Freshman All-SEC team last year and become the second true freshman in school history to start at cornerback on opening day.

"Sir, please stop punching that person in the head or we will have to subdue you."

My motto: Tase first, ask questions later.

[Schmidty]

The bottom line is police carry tasers for situations exactly like this one, if they aren't going to use them in a situation like this one then they shouldn't be carrying them.

I AGREE. I have said as much like 3 times here. I just get tired of the whole blame whoever isn't the police, instead of just saying that it's sad and not laying blame until more facts come out.

Of course the family is wrong for calling it murder, but I guess it's an understandable emotional response. Maybe after they have a chance to cool down, they'll be more reasonable. Probably not, but hopefully.

Sorry if I thought you implied something you didn't. I just get annoyed by these threads. They're very predictable.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Well it looks like it happened April 10th so I guess some back research on what the kid's disability was are probably covered in a Detriot newspaper at some point between then and now.

Not very well I'm afraid, other a comment by the family “Robert was shy. He was learning disabled and he tried to stay in school but he wasn’t learning anything and he couldn’t get along with the children because he couldn’t keep up in class,” McGlory said. “He was sort of home schooled

Another article mentioned that he was on medication for ADD and a comment by family members that he may have had asthma. I've went through at least a half dozen articles from three different papers & found nothing that really spelled out the supposed disability beyond that. Actually, there's relatively little on the story outside of various blogs until the protests & lawsuits began.

Of course their "coverage" and the subsequent CNN stories omit a number of details that show up in the original articles, like the fact that he ditched a bag when exiting the vehicle (witnesses say it was picked up by a passer-by), or that he ditched his jacket while fleeing, or that he became combative when officers were trying to pat him down.

Instead we're treated to vague assertions about an alleged learning disability because that makes a better headline.

[JonInMiddleGA]

My motto: Tase first, ask questions later.

Or just put away the tasers & go back to conventional firearms.

[Lathum]

My motto: Tase first, ask questions later.

Jesus Christ, we actually agree on something.

[MJ4H]

As far as the kid being mentally disabled if his disability was that severe maybe he shouldn't have been riding around unsupervised?

He wasn't unsupervised.

[JonInMiddleGA]

He wasn't unsupervised.

Might as well have been apparently.

[DanGarion]

Shouldn't the title be.

"Kid Runs From Cops, Is Tasered And Dies Of Complications"?

[Lathum]

He wasn't unsupervised.

Maybe I should have said supervised by people competent enough to ensure something like this doesn't happen

[Noop]

Another question is, should tasers be used on people who cost their team a national championship with a pass interference penalty?

That's fine at least he has a master degree from a respectable University and has experienced the NFL. You're just a fan who does not know how much he put into the university.

[molson]

Shouldn't the title be.

"Kid Runs From Cops, Is Tasered And Dies Of Complications"?

Not inflamatory enough.

[Fidatelo]

Shouldn't the title be.

"Kid Runs From Cops, Is Tasered And Dies Of Complications"?

I don't think this sells papers.

Although I have to credit the editor with not going with something like "Pigs Roast Retard".

[DanGarion]

Not inflamatory enough.

Right they aren't selling news here they are selling stories...

[RainMaker]

If cops can't subdue and handcuff a 5'2 110-pound disabled kid without a taser, they should not be cops. I have no problem with tasers being used in certain situations, but what kind of fucking pussies do you have on your force if they couldn't subdue a kid that size?

And I'm not trashing the cops for what happened. Tasers rarely kill. I just don't see how they had trouble arresting a kid that size.

[mckerney]

Time to reconsider the use of the taser as a non-lethal weapon? Perhaps lower the voltage.

There's no way that a taser should be considered non-lethal by police forces.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Although I have to credit the editor with not going with something like "Pigs Roast Retard".

Then there's the blogosphere ...

[MJ4H]

Maybe I should have said supervised by people competent enough to ensure something like this doesn't happen

You can't always prevent someone from doing something. If somoone were in the car with you and decided to get out in a panic, could you stop them? Would you make the correct split-second decision during a traffic-stop? Jump out and chase him? Dive for him across the car? What do you do? Maybe the kid should just be tied down in the basement?

[MrBug708]

5'2 110 lbs? I don't think any cop would have any problems handling him.

And who would have thought 4 cops would have any problems with Rodney King?

[Lathum]

If cops can't subdue and handcuff a 5'2 110-pound disabled kid without a taser, they should not be cops. I have no problem with tasers being used in certain situations, but what kind of fucking pussies do you have on your force if they couldn't subdue a kid that size?

And I'm not trashing the cops for what happened. Tasers rarely kill. I just don't see how they had trouble arresting a kid that size.

It doesn't matter what size the kid is if he had a gun.

[JonInMiddleGA]

You know what else hasn't been mentioned in any of the stories past the initial ones in April? The results of the toxicology tests that were being conducted with those being due back within a couple of weeks at the time.

Seems like those would be of some interest to the story one way or another.

[Lathum]

You can't always prevent someone from doing something. If somoone were in the car with you and decided to get out in a panic, could you stop them? Would you make the correct split-second decision during a traffic-stop? Jump out and chase him? Dive for him across the car? What do you do? Maybe the kid should just be tied down in the basement?

lets just drop it, my intention isn't to offend anyone or come across as unsympathetic about the kids mental well being.

[molson]

If cops can't subdue and handcuff a 5'2 110-pound disabled kid without a taser, they should not be cops. I have no problem with tasers being used in certain situations, but what kind of fucking pussies do you have on your force if they couldn't subdue a kid that size?

And I'm not trashing the cops for what happened. Tasers rarely kill. I just don't see how they had trouble arresting a kid that size.

That brings up another way tasers make law enforcement safer. Sure, cops could definitly subdue almost anyone eventually, but very often the suspect is injured in that melee. A taser is quick and clean, and in general, harmless. The injury/death rate is very low, though can always be improved.

[lordscarlet]

Man, leave for 2 hours and look how many posts show up in a new thread!

1. I agree that "learning disabled" is deliberate language that does not say "mendically handicapped"
2. I have to stick up for Noop here. I was ready to be all firey toward him until I saw his second post. I think he was truly just trying to discuss tasers, not whether the police were justified here. On that note, I think until there is a better alternative, the choice is currently a taser or a gun. Feel free to find a study on which is more lethal. ;)

[RainMaker]

It doesn't matter what size the kid is if he had a gun.
But the article doesn't make it seem like they thought he had a gun. They attempted to arrest him normally and he resisted. They tasered him as a last resort. I just don't know how a kid that size could succesfully resist arrest from police officers.

I'm not bashing the fact they tasered him as I think it's a suitable form of force when used in proper situations. I'm bashing the fact that these guys had trouble arresting a 5'2 110 pound disabled kid. What kind of physical shape are these cops in?

[Lathum]

Police always assume someone has a weapon.

Why do you think the first thing they have you do is stick your hands out the window or put them on your head.

[MikeVic]

Resisting arrest and he's 5'2", 110lbs... Does that mean he said no to being arrested and just ran, or did they have their hands on him and he somehow got away? I'd think being that small, how the hell does he get away?

[Maple Leafs]

Resisting arrest and he's 5'2", 110lbs... Does that mean he said no to being arrested and just ran, or did they have their hands on him and he somehow got away? I'd think being that small, how the hell does he get away?
Maurice Jones-Drew says hi.

[Noop]

Maurice Jones-Drew says hi.

That guy is built like a little tank.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Resisting arrest and he's 5'2", 110lbs... Does that mean he said no to being arrested and just ran, or did they have their hands on him and he somehow got away? I'd think being that small, how the hell does he get away?

The initial round of news stories indicated that he became combative & assaulted officers when they started to pat him down after he was caught inside the abandoned house.

[larrymcg421]

What's interesting is that in a recent SCOTUS case, Brendlin v. California, law endorcement tried to argue that passengers were free to walk away from a traffic stop. They made this argument because the search on the driver was ruled unconsitutional, but they still wanted to get the evidence collected from a passenger, saying it was a separate search because the person was free to walk away.

I'm glad the SCOTUS found that to be an assinine argument in their 9-0 decision, but it was pretty ironic to see law enforcement make that argument.

[Tigercat]

I think the focus should be on a "safer" taser. Non-lethal weapons are a great thing in law enforcement. There's always going to be risks, but there can always be technology advancements that limit the risk.



Making a safer taser would be one positive step. Another step would be not to use ANY weapon unless there is a good possibility of needing self defense or the defense of others. I am sorry, but if a skinny scared looking kid is running away from a non-felony stop, you don't use ANY weapon to make the situation more convenient for you as a police officer.

That's the biggest problem with police misusing the taser, they use it as a get out of the situation crutch. And sometimes, people die because of it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I am sorry, but if a skinny scared looking kid is running away from a non-felony stop, you don't use ANY weapon to make the situation more convenient for you as a police officer.

Bullshit. The act of attempting to elude puts an end to the need to play nice.

[Tigercat]

The initial round of news stories indicated that he became combative & assaulted officers when they started to pat him down after he was caught inside the abandoned house.

Dola, of course if that is the case, you gotta do what you gotta do to protect yourself. And those that research, construct, and put the non-lethal weapons in the hands of the officers need to make sure they are indeed non-lethal.

[stevew]

Tase first, ask questions later.

[MrBug708]

What is a "non-leathal" weapon? A slinky?

[JonInMiddleGA]

to make sure they are indeed non-lethal.

But nothing is foolproof. People die while under anesthesia for routine dental work.

Better idea: don't run from the po-po, don't resist arrest, and you're a hell of a lot less likely to find yourself on the business end of a taser.

Cause of death in this instance isn't a taser, it's the misconduct of the deceased.

[Noop]

What is a "non-leathal" weapon? A slinky?

Something that won't kill you if used.

[Tigercat]

Bullshit. The act of attempting to elude puts an end to the need to play nice.

I am not talking about playing nice, I am talking about playing smart. There is no reason to use weapons on a non-felony runaway, especially if the weapon can potentially cause serious injury or death. As someone who had his father beaten to the ground and arrested for resisting because he was having an insulin reaction (he didn't do anything wrong at first except look suspicious, because of the reaction), I know that things can often be not as they seem.


*We didn't sue the officers or anything, they apologized for not noticing his medic alert necklace. Just that shit happens, who knows if the next kid/adult that is tased and killed for running away from a non serious incident is going through something that can inhibit rational though.

[MrBug708]

Something that won't kill you if used.

Can y ou give me an example?

[JonInMiddleGA]

from a non serious incident

Sorry, but once you attempt to evade, "non-serious" is over.

[Noop]

Can y ou give me an example?

A pie.

[RainMaker]

Whatever happened to those guns that shot non-lethal bullets?

[MrBug708]

I am not talking about playing nice, I am talking about playing smart. There is no reason to use weapons on a non-felony runaway, especially if the weapon can potentially cause serious injury or death.

You can't do that. It's not possible. too many cops have been killed "playing it safe"

As someone who had his father beaten to the ground and arrested for resisting because he was having an insulin reaction (he didn't do anything wrong at first except look suspicious, because of the reaction), I know that things can often be not as they seem.

Exactly. That simple non felon runaway could not be as it seems.

[MrBug708]

A pie.

Exactly

[chadritt]

Whatever happened to those guns that shot non-lethal bullets?

they killed a girl in boston when they shot her with them. I think she actually got hit in the eye which is what did it

[Tigercat]

Sorry, but once you attempt to evade, "non-serious" is over.

So I guess all of us that have loved ones that have mental disabilities or are prone to episodes of irrational behavior, just have to live in fear for the worst involving the people that are there to protect us. Maybe that is the necessary reality, but that is just a shame.

[Noop]

Exactly

Pepper Spray
Water

[MrBug708]

So I guess all of us that have loved ones that have mental disabilities or are prone to episodes of irrational behavior, just have to live in fear for the worst involving the people that are there to protect us. Maybe that is the necessary reality, but that is just a shame.

Unfortunately it is

[MrBug708]

Pepper Spray
Water

Pepper Spray - Could cause an allergic reaction and kill them
Water - Could get knocked backwards and hit their head and die. Or choke to death

[Lathum]

Making a safer taser would be one positive step. Another step would be not to use ANY weapon unless there is a good possibility of needing self defense or the defense of others. I am sorry, but if a skinny scared looking kid is running away from a non-felony stop, you don't use ANY weapon to make the situation more convenient for you as a police officer.

.

And what if the kid pulled out a gun and shot 2 of the cops dead?

Then everyone would be saying they should have tasered him.

[CU Tiger]

running away from a non serious incident is going through something that can inhibit rational though.

Just dont forget the other side of the coin.
Last year a local police officer made a traffic stop for reportedly 62 in a 55, as he approached the car he was shot 2x in the face...as a LEO there is no non-serious offense until the situation is under control. The kid ran threw stuff and was stripping clothes....sounds pretty damn suspicious to me
I am also struck at the quality of parenting, "he tried school but it was tough so we sorta home schooled him"...now we are sorta hoping for a pay day

[RainMaker]

And what if the kid pulled out a gun and shot 2 of the cops dead?

Then everyone would be saying they should have tasered him.
What if they had cops capable of subduing a 5'2 110 pound disabled kid?

[Lathum]

Water

Lets outfit all law enforcement with super soakers!

[Suburban Rhythm]

I hate not having access at work anymore, because I can't post things like this when they are still fresh:

He was 'learning disabled'... that could mean almost anything. Dyslexic kids are 'learning disabled' but I'd still expect them to know not to run from cops.

He'd run, just backwards.


Also, being from Pittsburgh, I need to know if this kid was a Red Wings fan before I can judge.

[Lathum]

What if they had cops capable of subduing a 5'2 110 pound disabled kid?

dude, you keep coming back to this point and it makes you look like an idiot.

Cops are taught to make assumptions. The assumption is if a kid runs he is running for a reason and the needed steps should be taken.

How do you know the kid didn't put his hand inside his pocket?

The size of the kid is irrelevant.

[MrBug708]

What if they had cops capable of subduing a 5'2 110 pound disabled kid?

What??!?

[Tigercat]

And what if the kid pulled out a gun and shot 2 of the cops dead?

Then everyone would be saying they should have tasered him.

Or what if he had a machine gun, killed those two cops, and then killed 30 others? Or maybe a bomb? How far do we go, because, here is my point, a kid runs from a non-felony stop, the other guy stays. What are the odds that he has a gun, and what are the odds that he is just irrationally fearful and not a threat to others?

The cops chose to be in harms way to protect and serve. The irrational kid didn't.

[Danny]

dude, you keep coming back to this point and it makes you look like an idiot.

Cops are taught to make assumptions. The assumption is if a kid runs he is running for a reason and the needed steps should be taken.

How do you know the kid didn't put his hand inside his pocket?

The size of the kid is irrelevant.

I have to agree with this, I am pretty sure a 5'2 person is capable of shooting a gun. You can't assume just because someone is small that they are harmless.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Maybe that is the necessary reality, but that is just a shame.

It's also a shame that I've known two officers killed in the line of duty when they were simply walking into "non-serious" situations. A "routine" traffic stop in broad daylight and a "routine" summons service on a peaceful Saturday morning.

Both were dead before they had the slightest idea it wasn't routine.

edit to add: Here's the reality. There's no such thing as "non-serious". There's no such thing as "routine".

[MrBug708]

Or what if he had a machine gun, killed those two cops, and then killed 30 others? Or maybe a bomb?

You nailed it. Cops are trained for worst case scenario's, not best case scenario's.

How far do we go, because, here is my point, a kid runs from a non-felony stop, the other guy stays. What are the odds that he has a gun, and what are the odds that he is just irrationally fearful and not a threat to others?

You go as far as you can until you are absolutely sure the suspect is not a threat. Assumptions are what gets people killed.

The cops chose to be in harms way to protect and serve. The irrational kid didn't.

Wow.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The irrational kid didn't.

Yeah, he did, as soon as he took off running.
And his family did, when they chose to drive a car with an expired tag.

All the police did was their job, no matter how many excuses people try to make for the behavior of suspects.

[Tigercat]

It's also a shame that I've known two officers killed in the line of duty when they were simply walking into "non-serious" situations. A "routine" traffic stop in broad daylight and a "routine" summons service on a peaceful Saturday morning.

Both were dead before they had the slightest idea it wasn't routine.

edit to add: Here's the reality. There's no such thing as "non-serious". There's no such thing as "routine".

No doubt. I have the utmost respect for police officer as a profession. But that's because they know that is part of the reality when they get into the job. I have more respect for the police officer than I do for the kid running away from the cops. (Not knowing why the kid acted irrational.) But, as a citizen, in this situation I would rather the cop take the personal risk to themself than dish it out. That's what the cop signed up for. I am certainly no expert, but with the safety of tasers as they are, and given what the situation looked like to the cops at the stop, I just wish the cops would have taken the harder risk and subdued him without the use of something as unsafe as a taser.

[Suburban Rhythm]

The cops chose to be in harms way to protect and serve. The irrational kid didn't.

Actually, when he ran, he kind of did choose.

[RainMaker]

dude, you keep coming back to this point and it makes you look like an idiot.

Cops are taught to make assumptions. The assumption is if a kid runs he is running for a reason and the needed steps should be taken.

How do you know the kid didn't put his hand inside his pocket?

The size of the kid is irrelevant.

Because the kid was "violently resisting arrest" according to the police commissioner. That would assume that he was not sitting in a corner with his hands in his pockets. The officers have also not come out and said he was reaching for a weapon.

If multiple officers can't figure out a way to subdue a 5'2 110 pound disabled kid, then I think the Detroit Police Department has some issues with the kind of physical specimens they are enlisting.

[Tigercat]

You go as far as you can until you are absolutely sure the suspect is not a threat. Assumptions are what gets people killed.


And a lack of an assumption got this kid killed. I am not saying the cops should even suspended in my eyes... I am for sure saying, however, that this isn't a "Yes absolutely the police did the right and only thing!" situation as some of you seem to be suggesting.

[Tigercat]

Actually, when he ran, he kind of did choose.

Keyword being: irrational. Cops chose for years of training to be in that situation.

[stevew]

Why did the tazer kill him?

Cops shouldn't be wrestling criminals, if you can't submit, shut up, and calm the fuck down, tough shit.

[MrBug708]

If multiple officers can't figure out a way to subdue a 5'2 110 pound disabled kid, then I think the Detroit Police Department has some issues with the kind of physical specimens they are enlisting.

They actually did find a way to subdue the 5'2 kid. Of course if they physically subdue him, they probably get accused of police brutality and get fired from their job.

Sucks to be a cop

[MrBug708]

And a lack of an assumption got this kid killed. I am not saying the cops should even suspended in my eyes... I am for sure saying, however, that this isn't a "Yes absolutely the police did the right and only thing!" situation as some of you seem to be suggesting.

Lack of assumption? Does that even make sense? You're telling a cop to start assuming things? Seriously?

[Noop]

"They ordered him several times not to resist, and he continued to resist," Dwyer said. "They had no alternative to use what they felt at the time was non-lethal force."

This is what confuses me the most, the kid is 5'2 110lbs and they were unable to restrain him.

[MrBug708]

Keyword being: irrational. Cops chose for years of training to be in that situation.

I would say a taser is the best way to handle an irrational person, no? The last thing a person wants to do it rolling on the ground with someone who you even say is clearly irrational.

[MrBug708]

This is what confuses me the most, the kid is 5'2 110lbs and they were unable to restrain him.

It's a very unclear article. It doesnt say they were on the ground being out-muscled by a 5'2 kid but we (excuse me, Rainmaker) are assuming that they are

[Noop]

It's a very unclear article. It doesnt say they were on the ground being out-muscled by a 5'2 kid but we (excuse me, Rainmaker) are assuming that they are

You're right but if they were indeed on the ground (which they shouldn't be in the first place) trying to hold him down I question the fittest of the Detroit police department.

I am 5'11 175lb and I would be able to flip that kid around like a rag doll.

[Tigercat]

I would say a taser is the best way to handle an irrational person, no? The last thing a person wants to do it rolling on the ground with someone who you even say is clearly irrational.

Maybe, it may be that he was so out of it that even given his size the cops couldn't get him under control. If that is the case any possible blame should go those who arm the officers with the "non-lethal" weapons. They need a better option, or a better taser.

But while I think that is possible, it seems hard to believe that two cops can't out wrestle even a batshit crazy skinny little kid. But who knows...

[RainMaker]

It's a very unclear article. It doesnt say they were on the ground being out-muscled by a 5'2 kid but we (excuse me, Rainmaker) are assuming that they are

http://www.freep.com/article/20090414/NEWS01/90414070/

Police commissioner said he was violently resisting arrest and the officers were trying to protect themselves.

[MrBug708]

Maybe, it may be that he was so out of it that even given his size the cops couldn't get him under control. If that is the case any possible blame should go those who arm the officers with the "non-lethal" weapons. They need a better option, or a better taser.

But while I think that is possible, it seems hard to believe that two cops can't out wrestle even a batshit crazy skinny little kid. But who knows...

Never underestimate an irrational person who doesn't want to get arrested

[JonInMiddleGA]

But, as a citizen, in this situation I would rather the cop take the personal risk to themself than dish it out. That's what the cop signed up for.

They don't sign up to die because of some fuck up, they sign up to keep the rest of us from dying at the hands of some fuck up.

What you just typed has to be one of the most disrespectful things to people in uniform I've ever run across. I wouldn't trade one cop's life for a hundred perps who tried to post a bush bond like this kid. And the minute he took off, that's what he became: another perp.

[molson]

You're right but if they were indeed on the ground (which they shouldn't be in the first place) trying to hold him down I question the fittest of the Detroit police department.

I am 5'11 175lb and I would be able to flip that kid around like a rag doll.

But if you were a cop and "flipped that kid around like a rag doll", you'd get fired (and probably a thread about you at FOFC).

It's difficult to restrain somebody who doesn't want to be restrained without injuring him (or yourself).

[RainMaker]

Never underestimate an irrational person who doesn't want to get arrested
Rational or not, if multiple officers trained in defensive tactics are not able to physically handle a kid that size, it's time to hang up your badge and sell insurance.

[MrBug708]

http://www.freep.com/article/20090414/NEWS01/90414070/

Police commissioner said he was violently resisting arrest and the officers were trying to protect themselves.

Why use an article that is clearly inaccurate? You've been using 5'2 110 for about 10 posts in this thread and that article describes the kid as being 125.

So what is the violently resisting part? What was he doing to the officers? Biting? Kicking? Throwing his body all over the place?

[MrBug708]

Rational or not, if multiple officers trained in defensive tactics are not able to physically handle a kid that size, it's time to hang up your badge and sell insurance.

And when they had broken the kids arm, you'd be in this thread talking about how they should have just tasered him. You just assume that the officers couldn't stop the kid because they weren't "physically capable"

[Lathum]

What if the kid was trying to bite the cops? Would they be justified then?

[molson]

Rational or not, if multiple officers trained in defensive tactics are not able to physically handle a kid that size, it's time to hang up your badge and sell insurance.

You're making this assumption that "physically handling" somebody is preferrable to a taser. That's an incorrect assumption, regardless of the tragic result in this particular case.

[Noop]

But if you were a cop and "flipped that kid around like a rag doll", you'd get fired (and probably a thread about you at FOFC).

It's difficult to restrain somebody who doesn't want to be restrained without injuring him (or yourself).

Two people against a skinny kid? I question the fitness of those police officers.

[RainMaker]

Why use an article that is clearly inaccurate? You've been using 5'2 110 for about 10 posts in this thread and that article describes the kid as being 125.

So what is the violently resisting part? What was he doing to the officers? Biting? Kicking? Throwing his body all over the place?
Some reported 110 pounds, some 125 pounds. Honestly at that size, I don't think it makes much of a difference. The Free Press has a pretty good reputation in the city and the quote has been used by tons of other media sources.

I don't know what violently resisting arrest is. There's only so much a kid that size can physically do.

[molson]

And when they had broken the kids arm, you'd be in this thread talking about how they should have just tasered him.

Yup

[molson]

Two people against a skinny kid? I question the fitness of those police officers.

They could have beat the shit out of him easily, if that was their goal.

It's a little trickier of a fight if you know you'll get fired for injuring him. It's not exactly a pure 2-on-1 brawl.

[MrBug708]

Two people against a skinny kid? I question the fitness of those police officers.

Why are we suddenly assuming they couldn't kick the shit out of the kid? I'm pretty sure they can, but then it would just turn into a racial issue saying they were using excessive force and why couldn't they have just tasered him?

[Lathum]

I would rather the cop take the personal risk to themself than dish it out. That's what the cop signed up for.

This statement is beyond mind numbing.

Your saying the police officers should put themselves at risk over the criminal who fled from a traffic stop and is resisting arrest?

[MrBug708]

I don't know what violently resisting arrest is. There's only so much a kid that size can physically do.

Size has nothing to do with it. Why can't you understand that?

[Lathum]

There's only so much a kid that size can physically do.

Biting them and spitting on them are 2 things, and how do the cops know he doesn't have hepatitis or swine flu?

[RainMaker]

Size has nothing to do with it. Why can't you understand that?
Yeah, they just seperate people into weight classes in wrestling, MMA, and boxing for fun. Not because size has any physical advantages in a fight.

[MrBug708]

Yeah, they just seperate people into weight classes in wrestling, MMA, and boxing for fun. Not because size has any physical advantages in a fight.

It has nothing to do with the physicality of the fight. It has to do with officer safety.

*sigh* I've come to the realization that you are being obtuse on purpose.

[molson]

Yeah, they just seperate people into weight classes in wrestling, MMA, and boxing for fun. Not because size has any physical advantages in a fight.

it wasn't a fight.

[Lathum]

Yeah, they just seperate people into weight classes in wrestling, MMA, and boxing for fun. Not because size has any physical advantages in a fight.

jesus

[RainMaker]

It has nothing to do with the physicality of the fight. It has to do with officer safety.

*sigh* I've come to the realization that you are being obtuse on purpose.
Like I said, if a kid that small is posing a risk to your safety in a phsyical alteration, it's time to hang up the badge and sell homes or something. You aren't cut out for the job.

[RainMaker]

You guys have low expectations for your police forces. Whatever happened to "city's finest". Couple of cops who can't physically handle a kid that size should be laughed out of the police force.

[MrBug708]

Like I said, if a kid that small is posing a risk to your safety in a phsyical alteration, it's time to hang up the badge and sell homes or something. You aren't cut out for the job.

There is no height requirement to kill someone. It's not an amusement park ride

[molson]

You guys have low expectations for your police forces. Whatever happened to "city's finest". Couple of cops who can't physically handle a kid that size should be laughed out of the police force.

I'm sure that sometime soon, you'll bitch on here about officers who "handled" a criminal in a physical manner.

Here, you're arguing (I guess), that the officers should have physically subdued him. Which is far riskier than tasing, for everyone's safety, including that of the suspect.

[JonInMiddleGA]

You guys have low expectations for your police forces. Whatever happened to "city's finest". Couple of cops who can't physically handle a kid that size should be laughed out of the police force.

And a taser carries less risk of injury to anyone than physically subduing.

And even more importantly as far as I'm concerned, carries less risk of injury to the officers than physically subduing a suspect.

[RainMaker]

It's fine guys. We just have different expectations for what we want out of our police officers. Not a big deal.

[molson]

It's fine guys. We just have different expectations for what we want out of our police officers. Not a big deal.

It sounds like your expectation is that officers physically brutalize a disabled kid, perhaps just to prove that they're "fit for the job?"

While else would you PREFER them to go that route (continued physical assault) with an out of control suspect?

[chadritt]

It's fine guys. We just have different expectations for what we want out of our police officers. Not a big deal.

in all seriousness....what should they have done? if not taser him than what? they cant assault him, they cant let him keep attacking them, what should they have done to stop him without risking a lawsuit?

[RainMaker]

It sounds like your expectation is that officers physically brutalize a disabled kid, perhaps just to prove that they're "fit for the job?"

While else would you PREFER them to go that route (continued physical assault) with an out of control suspect?
I don't think you need to brutalize someone that size to subdue them and handcuff them.

[Tigercat]

This statement is beyond mind numbing.

Your saying the police officers should put themselves at risk over the criminal who fled from a traffic stop and is resisting arrest?

It isn't that cut and dry. But should they potentially risk their lives to protect the life, or at least not endanger the life, of a kid running away from a non felony incident? Yes.

They are there to protect and serve others before there own safety whenever possible, even the people we might hold below the police officers. (Which I do Jon, I have complete respect for officers and the job they do. I have a high respect for police offers largely because they protect and serve EVERYONE, not just "non perps" as you would seemingly suggest.)

[JonInMiddleGA]

in all seriousness....what should they have done? if not taser him than what? they cant assault him, they cant let him keep attacking them, what should they have done to stop him without risking a lawsuit?

Let's be honest: there are elements in our society who simply want them to let him escape & do as he damned well pleases. We'd hear the same protests from the same malcontents around Detroit, and many of the same ones we've seen here in this thread even if the kid had been carrying a SuperSoaker filled with anthrax & had a record 8 miles long.

Everything else is just bluster to cover that basic truth and anybody paying attention at all has figured that out already.

[molson]

in all seriousness....what should they have done? if not taser him than what? they cant assault him, they cant let him keep attacking them, what should they have done to stop him without risking a lawsuit?

I think people have the assumption that police, 100% of the time, have the ability to quickly and safely arrest anyone who resists them, without risk to either party. And that whenever reality isn't that clean, then the officers must have did something wrong. When you have that assumption, it's easier to see how people get worked up when criminals get a roughed up (or become one of the tragic few that die as the result of tasing).

Obviously, it's possible for police to go to far. But the end result is only one piece of evidence, and it's a not a very convincing one. An officer can go way over the line, and a criminal is OK and we never hear about it. Or an officer can do the best he can, and what he's trained to do to try do arrest a resisting suspect, and the suspect can end up dead anyway.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I have complete respect for officers and the job they do.

And I'm saying your words here in this thread have proven beyond any shadow of doubt whatsoever that you don't.

You can protest that until hell freezes over but your own words condemn you.

[Noop]

Let's be honest: there are elements in our society who simply want them to let him escape & do as he damned well pleases.

And the reverse is true as well.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And the reverse is true as well.

That he wanted to escape & do as he damned well pleases to certain elements of society?

[Tigercat]

in all seriousness....what should they have done? if not taser him than what? they cant assault him, they cant let him keep attacking them, what should they have done to stop him without risking a lawsuit?

Wrestle him and subdue him, with a greater risk of bodily injury to the suspect but a lesser risk of death. Just my opinion on it anyway.

[molson]

And the reverse is true as well.

There's people that don't want him to escape? I think that's safe to say.

[RainMaker]

in all seriousness....what should they have done? if not taser him than what? they cant assault him, they cant let him keep attacking them, what should they have done to stop him without risking a lawsuit?
I'm fine with the taser there. As I stated earlier, I don't have a problem with it being used. I was just questioning the physical prowess of multiple cops who are unable to subdue a kid that size.

[Tigercat]

And I'm saying your words here in this thread have proven beyond any shadow of doubt whatsoever that you don't.

You can protest that until hell freezes over but your own words condemn you.

And yet in a year or two I will more than likely be a protection ranger/officer in the NPS. (if all goes as planned.) I guess I will just have to hate myself then.

[molson]

Wrestle him and subdue him, with a greater risk of bodily injury to the suspect but a lesser risk of death. Just my opinion on it anyway.

That's a fair argument I think, and different police forces definitely have different degrees of reliance on the taser. Some don't use it at all, or only in extreme situations.

But it really ends up being a no-win situation for them.

I think that the high profile nature of the taser deaths inflates their dangerousness in the public eye. I would rather cops use them then getting in scuffles.

[Noop]

That he wanted to escape & do as he damned well pleases to certain elements of society?

Nope. There are some people no matter the evidence refuse to acknowledge that the police are capable of doing pretty shitty things to people.

[MrBug708]

I'm fine with the taser there. As I stated earlier, I don't have a problem with it being used. I was just questioning the physical prowess of multiple cops who are unable to subdue a kid that size.

Then why are you questioning still?!?

[MrBug708]

Nope. There are some people no matter the evidence refuse to acknowledge that the police are capable of doing pretty shitty things to people.

Uh...

[MrBug708]

And yet in a year or two I will more than likely be a protection ranger/officer in the NPS. (if all goes as planned.) I guess I will just have to hate myself then.

I don't think you'll hate yourself, but you might question your line of thinking in this thread :)

[RainMaker]

Then why are you questioning still?!?
I'm not nor have I ever questioned the tasering. Just the physical prowess of these officers. Time to bulk up the entry requirements in Detroit.

[molson]

I'm not nor have I ever questioned the tasering. Just the physical prowess of these officers. Time to bulk up the entry requirements in Detroit.

Do you seriously believe that they COULDN'T take this kid physically if they wanted to?

They chose to use the taser.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And yet in a year or two I will more than likely be a protection ranger/officer in the NPS. (if all goes as planned.) I guess I will just have to hate myself then.

Honestly, we'd all be better served if you chose another line of work. Taxpayers have no need to pay for unnecessary funerals for sworn personnel who lack the common sense or good judgment to do the job properly, which you've clearly shown in this thread. You'd represent nothing so much as an unnecessary risk to both yourself and anyone you'd be sworn to protect.

[Danny]

Regarding the arguments of what a 5'2, 120 pound kid could do, if the kid is freaked out and wild, a whole lot actually. I've worked with some pretty severely autistic kids who would flip out (biting, scratching, hitting, flailing their bodies to make it difficult to restrain, etc...) and needed to be restrained. While I had less leeway than the cops at to what is appropriate to have them stop without potentially injuring them, this is not as easy as it would seem. And I am 6'3, 245 and pretty damn strong.

If the kid really was going crazy, the cops probably did have to use something, either force which would potentially injure him and get them fired or the tazer.

[MrBug708]

I'm not nor have I ever questioned the tasering. Just the physical prowess of these officers. Time to bulk up the entry requirements in Detroit.

The physical prowess of the officers is irrelevant

[Danny]

Do you seriously believe that they COULDN'T take this kid physically if they wanted to?

They chose to use the taser.

This is the point here, cops can't just do whatever they want physically to make sure someone is restrained, they will lose their job. As in my example, I am sure I could take a 70-80 pound autistic kid, but it's about restraining someone in a way that is appropriate to your job and its guidelines. And like I said, while I am sure my guidelines are more strict than the police officers, they still are there.

[Danny]

From the reports it appears all this kid is classified is as learning disabled. Generally if a child is autistic, developmentally delayed or some others, they will specifically be classified as that. It would be nice if the story did actual reporting, but since they didn't specifically say, it's quite possible this kid simply had a reading disability or something along those lines.

Still, it is really unfortunate that he died from the tazer.

[RainMaker]

Do you seriously believe that they COULDN'T take this kid physically if they wanted to?

They chose to use the taser.
I don't know, the police commissioner felt that the officers were in physical danger.

Like I said, I'm fine with the taser. Ultimately they have to do what they felt was right for the situation. The kid shouldn't have ran and the whole thing is a tragedy that has no one at fault (shit sometimes happens). Personally I would prefer officers who don't need the taser to restrain a kid that size. Not saying the use is wrong, just kind of embarassing and pathetic.

[Travis]

For those arguing that the cops should have physically subdued the kid, have you ever really tried to do that to somebody who is resisting? I'm a big guy and have various martial training (all at relatively speaking superficial levels, I'm certainly not a black belt or anything of that nature, but I enjoy the techniques/strategy of it), and if I were in the cops shoes, I wouldn't want to risk a physical confrontation unless absolutely necessary. I've been through a resistance scenario twice (where I used to work, one was a big dude who was shoplifting, the second was an ex-army guy hopped up on dope who was chasing his wife and kid while they tried to hide in our store).

First issue: hidden weapon. Be it a guy, knife, blade or keys, if the person is not cooperating and especially if they are fighting back, size doesn't matter if you introduce elements like these. Obviously varied degree's of danger depending on what they have, but the key here is you can't tell for sure what's on their person unless they're running around naked of have been searched well.

Second: How good of a fighter that small guy may be, or can he land a lucky shot? One lucky kick to the knee and you're done for a year+. That's just one example, but somebody thrashing about could do a lot of damage from face to feet with a headbutt, finger to the eye, knee to the groin, kick to the knee, etc, etc. Never mind if the guy has actual training of some sort and knows some close quarters combat. Any officer hurt in this fashion is one less cop to put on the streets until they're healthy again.

Third (and probably the most important): Acceptable risk? In this instance the kid very sadly, died due to the taser. Now I'd hope the mortality rate in a physical apprehension would be loser than that of being tasered, but it's not going to be 0%. For those asking for the physical take down, what happens if the officer(s) take him down, but there's a stumble, trip, slip, etc that results in a neck being broken and the person dying? There is a mortality risk in this situation no matter how it's resolved once there is resistance.

It's sad, it's tragic, and no, I don't believe that offiers are saints who always do their jobs in the proper fashion, but I do believe that while their jobs call for them to protect and serve the public, one of their main responsibilities should be to do so in a manner that is safest for them as possible.

Yes there will be tragic accidents especially when there is mental illness playing a role or other influences (wrong meds, no meds, etc, etc), but to call these guys to task because you're assuming they couldn't just waltz in and subue a smaller person with ease, well, it's a lot easier to make that call from the sideline.

[RainMaker]

From the reports it appears all this kid is classified is as learning disabled. Generally if a child is autistic, developmentally delayed or some others, they will specifically be classified as that. It would be nice if the story did actual reporting, but since they didn't specifically say, it's quite possible this kid simply had a reading disability or something along those lines.

Still, it is really unfortunate that he died from the tazer.
There are other articles out there that said he was 16 but with the intellect of a 10 or 11 year old. Not sure what that's called.

[MrBug708]

I don't know, the police commissioner felt that the officers were in physical danger.

Like I said, I'm fine with the taser. Ultimately they have to do what they felt was right for the situation. The kid shouldn't have ran and the whole thing is a tragedy that has no one at fault (shit sometimes happens). Personally I would prefer officers who don't need the taser to restrain a kid that size. Not saying the use is wrong, just kind of embarassing and pathetic.

We don't know of anything about the kid and the situation.. As far as we know, the kid could have been in a corner where the officers couldnt fit into without exposing themselves and their physical advantage was useless. Kid could have been on a ledge where the officers couldn't get to. Throwing chunks of concrete et al.

Physical danger doesn't mean the kid was going to kick their ass in hand to hand combat

[JonInMiddleGA]

And lost amidst the hubub about so-called taser deaths were the preliminary findings last June by the Department of Justice which revealed no conclusive medical evidence that Tasers cause injury or death, despite many publicized cases of people dying after being hit by stun guns.

Other findings contained in the interim report, which was released last June, include:

"Law enforcement need not refrain from deploying CEDs provided the devices are used in accordance with accepted national guidelines;"

"The potential for moderate or severe injury related to CED exposure is low;"

"There is currently no medical evidence that CEDs pose a significant risk for
induced cardiac dysrhythmia when deployed reasonably;"

"Excited delirium that requires subdual carries with it a high risk of death,
regardless of the method of subdual;"
(note: "excited delirium", in my best layman's understanding, is basically when the influence of one or more stimulating chemicals leads to an overdose of adrenalin that stops the heart)

"Current human research suggests that the use of CED is not a life-threatening stressor in cases of excited delirium beyond the generalized stress of the underlying condition or appropriate subdual;"

"The decision to use a CED or another force option is best left to the tactical judgment of trained law enforcement at the scene."

But hey, a handful of malcontents probably knows better than the DOJ, medical research, and the police. We should just turn over all decision making to them.

[RainMaker]

We don't know of anything about the kid. As far as we know, the kid could have been in a corner where the officers couldnt fit into without exposing themselves and their physical advantage was useless. Kid could have been on a ledge where the officers couldn't get to. Throwing chunks of concrete.

Physical danger doesn't mean the kid was going to kick their ass in hand to hand combat
The articles stated that he ran down the stairs and tried to assault an officer.

[Danny]

There are other articles out there that said he was 16 but with the intellect of a 10 or 11 year old. Not sure what that's called.

That's unclear reporting. If he is cognitively on the level with a 10 or 11 year old, he would be developmentally delayed (PC term for mentally retarded). If he was at the reading or some other academic level of a 10 or 11 year old, that could be a specific learning disability that causes low academic performance.

Intellect could be defined multiple ways

[MrBug708]

The articles stated that he ran down the stairs and tried to assault an officer.

Certainly that wasn't a danger to the officers. But it doesnt state that they already had their taser pulled when he was running straight at them?

[Tigercat]

I don't think you'll hate yourself, but you might question your line of thinking in this thread :)

Everyone has their own ideas, my idea of protect and serve isn't different from my family friend who was a long time protection ranger and who is helping me get into the NPS. (I've been trying to get into the park service for a couple of years, not that I don't have a good resume or extensive relevant education, just hard to get in these days without a military background.)

Protection isn't even what I want to do permanently, I want to be an interpretation ranger (give tours, man help desks, set up education programs, ect) it is just easier to get in via protection, and I do have enough respect for that line of work that I am willing to give up a few years towards it. (And more if it becomes necessary or I chose to stay in protection.)

[Danny]

I don't know, the police commissioner felt that the officers were in physical danger.

Like I said, I'm fine with the taser. Ultimately they have to do what they felt was right for the situation. The kid shouldn't have ran and the whole thing is a tragedy that has no one at fault (shit sometimes happens). Personally I would prefer officers who don't need the taser to restrain a kid that size. Not saying the use is wrong, just kind of embarassing and pathetic.

It's about training too. If the officers are trained and taught that using the tazer is appropriate in that situation, that is what they will do. In general, this seems like a situation in which their training would dictate using a tazer.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Personally I would prefer officers who don't need the taser to restrain a kid that size. Not saying the use is wrong, just kind of embarassing and pathetic.

Did you know that some departments have both tasers & pepper spray lower on their force chart than physical contact with a suspect? And that in some jurisdictions putting your hands on a suspect to subdue him is the last step before going to the baton and the firearm?

Given the consistent statements about the use of the taser being appropriate it seems reasonable to think that this department could be one of those, meaning it seems pretty hard to pin any sort of embarrassment on officers doing what they're trained to do.

[Noop]

This whole situation was tragic. A little less voltage in the taser gun might have made the difference. Tough situation I hope they find a way to correct it in the future. Also I don't think his mother should be suing the police...just my opinion.

[Maple Leafs]

The fact that we had an abortion thread today and yet the dozen or so dumbest posts of the day were in a different thread is a Mine That Bird level upset.

[JediKooter]

Nothing the Vulcan nerve pinch couldn't have solved.

[Lathum]

This whole situation was tragic. A little less voltage in the taser gun might have made the difference. Tough situation I hope they find a way to correct it in the future. Also I don't think his mother should be suing the police...just my opinion.

I doibt voltage had anything to do with it.

Obviously I am not in the know but I would assume the kid had an undiagnosed heart condition and the electric shock triggered an arythimia.

[CU Tiger]

To subdue and cuff a suspect he has to be placed prone and then held down while his arms are forced behind him. The act of holding him down would be a knee or more body weight applied directly to the kids back, neck or head. At his size it is highly doubtful he could have supported that weight. the kid's size may have directly lead to the tasering. Like I said, if a kid that small is posing a risk to your safety in a phsyical alteration, it's time to hang up the badge and sell homes or something. You aren't cut out for the job.

What if the kid is Bruce Lee or Royce Gracie?
I'm just saying we do not know how competent of a fighter the kid is and size is not that relevant in a street fight.

[CU Tiger]

I doibt voltage had anything to do with it.

Obviously I am not in the know but I would assume the kid had an undiagnosed heart condition and the electric shock triggered an arythimia.

yeah there are multiple mention of lowering the voltage in this thread, but voltage does not kill amperage does...the average spark plug in a car has over 100,000 volts and anyone who has speent time under a hood has been hit by one at some point.

[Fidatelo]

The fact that we had an abortion thread today and yet the dozen or so dumbest posts of the day were in a different thread is a Mine That Bird level upset.

I love this (even if I'm in your dozen). Classic.

[RainMaker]

Pastors in Church parking lots are a huge problem in today's society.

Police Taser Pastor 'Helping' Driver in Traffic Stop - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,529800,00.html)

[Schmidty]

Pastors in Church parking lots are a huge problem in today's society.

Police Taser Pastor 'Helping' Driver in Traffic Stop - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,529800,00.html)

I usually argue a little the other way, but if this guy interfered and then pushed the officer, and then still refused to cooperate, he pretty much deserved what he got. I don't care if he was Moses, it still sounds like he's a publicity-seeking douchebag.

[Marc Vaughan]

Did you not read the article? He was mentally disabled. Jeez.

If I read it right he was driving around in a car - if he's competant to do that then I'd presume he was competant to obey simple instructions (otherwise he wouldn't be a safe driver?).

[Schmidty]

If I read it right he was driving around in a car - if he's competant to do that then I'd presume he was competant to obey simple instructions (otherwise he wouldn't be a safe driver?).

You quoted me from a month ago, and started a new page which happened to hide the last post I made 2 minutes ago!!! Damn you!!!

[Glengoyne]

You quoted me from a month ago, and started a new page which happened to hide the last post I made 2 minutes ago!!! Damn you!!!

You can't deny it. Marc Vaughan is pretty technically savy. Who Knew?;)