Gunfire reported at National Holocaust Museum..... [Archive]

Mizzou B-ball fan

06-10-2009, 12:44 PM

Sounds like we will have some heroes come out of this incident. At least two security guards exchanged gunfire with the gunman, wounding him and then taking him into custody. At least one security guard was wounded in the exchange........

Shots Fired at National Holocaust Museum in D.C. - Political News - FOXNews.com (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/06/10/shots-fired-national-holocaust-museum-dc/)

DaddyTorgo

06-10-2009, 12:51 PM

do you have a link from a real news organization?

*ducks and grins*

way to go for the security guards! i knew there was a reason we let them all carry firearms!

RomaGoth

06-10-2009, 01:29 PM

I am wondering how they just walked into the place with their guns showing. I have never been there, but is there no checkpoint or anything prior to entering a public building?

panerd

06-10-2009, 01:33 PM

I am wondering how they just walked into the place with their guns showing. I have never been there, but is there no checkpoint or anything prior to entering a public building?

I believe that is why they were shot, they walked into the building and were shot at by the guards. How far out do you want the guards?

DaddyTorgo

06-10-2009, 01:33 PM

Shooting reported at Holocaust Museum in Washington - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/06/10/museum.shooting/index.html)

RomaGoth

06-10-2009, 01:46 PM

I believe that is why they were shot, they walked into the building and were shot at by the guards. How far out do you want the guards?

The post office across the street from my old job had a roving guard. He walked the entire way around the building for his entire shift. Perhaps this should be looked at by every federal/state building.

DanGarion

06-10-2009, 01:51 PM

Early reports say the assailant was a 89 year old white supremacist.

panerd

06-10-2009, 01:52 PM

The post office across the street from my old job had a roving guard. He walked the entire way around the building for his entire shift. Perhaps this should be looked at by every federal/state building.

Perhaps you don't understand the layout of the musuem. There is security in the entry that is as tough (probably tougher) than airport security. Metal detectors, armed guards, sealed doors, a secure elevator to the musuem. It sucks that the security guard was shot but the same thing would have happened outside. I don't think you are getting past security at any of the D.C. federal buidlings.

BrianD

06-10-2009, 01:52 PM

Mizzou B-ball fan

06-10-2009, 01:54 PM

I am wondering how they just walked into the place with their guns showing. I have never been there, but is there no checkpoint or anything prior to entering a public building?

There are metal detectors at the museum. He walked up to the checkpoint with a gun and the guards took him down. Sounds like it worked as it should to me.

Shooter was an 88 year old guy who was part of a white supremacy movement? Geez.

DaddyTorgo

06-10-2009, 01:58 PM

why didn't the guards have bulletproof vests though?

gstelmack

06-10-2009, 02:02 PM

why didn't the guards have bulletproof vests though?

They may have. Initial reports were the shooter had a long gun and most body armor won't stop a typical rifle round. Pistols yes, high-powered rifle (which is most of them) no.

sabotai

06-10-2009, 02:08 PM

Shooting reported at Holocaust Museum in Washington - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/06/10/museum.shooting/index.html)

From the article:

"She said she was quickly evacuated."

I'd shit myself too!

RomaGoth

06-10-2009, 02:13 PM

Sounds to me like everything happened the way it was supposed to have happened. The suspect was identified at or near the security checkpoint/metal detector and was taken down. The security guards prevented action against non-security personnel by being the initial targets and then resolved the situation.

Never been to this particular museum so not familiar with the layout. But, after reading more of what happened, it does indeed sound like things went as they were intended.

DaddyTorgo

06-10-2009, 02:25 PM

They may have. Initial reports were the shooter had a long gun and most body armor won't stop a typical rifle round. Pistols yes, high-powered rifle (which is most of them) no.

aaah good point

DaddyTorgo

06-10-2009, 02:25 PM

since this guy was just about dead anyway can we give him the death penalty by cruel + unusual methods? otherwise really...what's the point?

Mizzou B-ball fan

06-10-2009, 02:28 PM

since this guy was just about dead anyway can we give him the death penalty by cruel + unusual methods? otherwise really...what's the point?

I'm thinking gas chamber that looks like a prison shower?

DaddyTorgo

06-10-2009, 02:35 PM

I'm thinking gas chamber that looks like a prison shower?

bawhahaha

DaddyTorgo

06-10-2009, 02:35 PM

or we could just eviscerate him

DaddyTorgo

06-10-2009, 02:36 PM

better do something or we'll have gangs of 88 year old cancer patients roaming around commiting violent crimes because they're unafraid of the penalties!

RomaGoth

06-10-2009, 02:47 PM

I'm thinking gas chamber that looks like a prison shower?

How about a prison shower that looks like a gas chamber?

Schmidty

06-10-2009, 03:20 PM

I think they should tie him down, tape his eyes open and make him watch Seinfeld 24 hours a day, with a few episodes of Cribs thrown in.

Draft Dodger

06-10-2009, 03:24 PM

I think they should tie him down, tape his eyes open and make him watch Seinfeld 24 hours a day, with a few episodes of Cribs thrown in.

not the Schindlers List one though. That would just be going too far

JonInMiddleGA

06-10-2009, 03:44 PM

not the Schindlers List one though. That would just be going too far

Fine, but he doesn't get the Soup Nazi episodes either.

lordscarlet

06-10-2009, 04:28 PM

I'm thinking gas chamber that looks like a prison shower?

:lol:

RomaGoth

06-10-2009, 04:29 PM

Fine, but he doesn't get the Soup Nazi episodes either.

Nor does he get the Michael Richards rant on stage....

molson

06-10-2009, 04:44 PM

You gotta amdire an 88-year old that's still so passionate about his interests.

If only his interest wasn't hating jews and whatnot.

Mizzou B-ball fan

06-10-2009, 06:08 PM

Sad news. The guard that was shot has been pronounced dead. Unfortunately, a hero that didn't live to see his recognition as such.

Schmidty

06-10-2009, 06:20 PM

RIP Paul Blart.

Bad joke, sorry.

The guy is a hero, and it's a fucking shame. This world makes me sick.

panerd

06-10-2009, 06:44 PM

Local coverage has already been excessive. (Apparently the shooter lived in St. Louis for some time) Great to see the media giving this guy the attention he so very much craved. I understand that a shooting in the capital at a high interest place can't go uncovered, but do we really need to know about this pathetic loser's life? Do we really need to inspire some other racist asshole to do the same thing for the publicity? I wish there was a black and white answer for the media's culpability, but I will say with certainty that they could do a little less than we are about to get.

King of New York

06-10-2009, 07:28 PM

Hats off to the security guard.

Sad to say, I always expected to see some sort of violent incident at the Holocaust Museum during my lifetime :(

lordscarlet

06-11-2009, 08:10 AM

I just want to add that Stephen T. Johns and his fellow guards did their job and protected the visitors to the museum. It is terrible that he died, but he died doing his job and died a hero.

Kodos

06-11-2009, 08:58 AM

Seems to be a spike in hate crimes recently.

Mizzou B-ball fan

06-11-2009, 09:18 AM

Seems to be a spike in hate crimes recently.

It's pretty concerning actually, as the tactics have a level of terrorist thinking in them. The guy in the abortion doctor case went right into a church and basically eliminated that doctor for his 'cause'. He obviously was willing to sacrifice himself for his warped version of the 'greater good'. Since then, a pro-life group wants to buy the clinic and change it into a memorial or museum for the aborted babies.

In the case of the Holocaust Museum, the older Neo-nazi guy decided to go out with a bang. I'm sure there's no question that there was a reason why a black security guard was the first one he shot at.

These kinds of actions could easily promote copy-cat crimes within these or other group movements here in the U.S. I'm also sure that both of these groups are none too happy about the person in the White House for different reasons. People should definitely not take these random acts lightly. It needs to be stopped now before it becomes more common.

flere-imsaho

06-11-2009, 09:31 AM

It's pretty concerning actually, as the tactics have a level of terrorist thinking in them.

I'll go further: they're both terrorists. Aside from his goal of murdering the doctor, that guy also achieved a goal of making people afraid of engaging in, or supporting, a legal activity. Similar (but perhaps less so) with the guy at the Holocaust museum, visiting fear and grief upon the public.

Terrorists aren't just people with Arab, Irish or Basque accents (hyperbole to make a point here), they can also be regular Americans.

Can't wait until Fox News tells us they shouldn't be held in American jails, due to the danger.

JPhillips

06-11-2009, 10:23 AM

That DHS report sure seems a lot less controversial.

Samdari

06-11-2009, 10:42 AM

Since then, a pro-life group wants to buy the clinic and change it into a memorial or museum for the aborted babies.

You lump this in with hate crimes? This seems a pretty constructive (i.e. nonviolent) way to make your point.

JPhillips

06-11-2009, 10:47 AM

You lump this in with hate crimes? This seems a pretty constructive (i.e. nonviolent) way to make your point.

It's needlessly inflammatory given the shooter has connections to the group that wants to buy the building. Imagine if an Arab sheik bought the WTC site and erected a monument to the evils of western colonialism.

panerd

06-11-2009, 10:50 AM

You lump this in with hate crimes? This seems a pretty constructive (i.e. nonviolent) way to make your point.

So suppose a Muslim group wanted to build a mosque where the Trade Towers were? Or a white supremacist group wanted to put a gun shop up in OKC?

panerd

06-11-2009, 10:52 AM

DaddyTorgo

06-11-2009, 11:09 AM

Samdari

06-11-2009, 11:46 AM

It's needlessly inflammatory given the shooter has connections to the group that wants to buy the building. Imagine if an Arab sheik bought the WTC site and erected a monument to the evils of western colonialism.

They did not say they were going to build a museum of how evil the doctor was.

You don't see the difference between:

An act where someone dies

and

An act where noone gets hurt, nor even has to be offended if they choose not to enter a certain building?

The first one is a hate crime. The second in poor taste. Poor taste is NOT a hate crime. its not even a crime. Its legally exercising your freedom of speech.

KWhit

06-11-2009, 12:06 PM

They did not say they were going to build a museum of how evil the doctor was.

You don't see the difference between:

An act where someone dies

and

An act where noone gets hurt, nor even has to be offended if they choose not to enter a certain building?

The first one is a hate crime. The second in poor taste. Poor taste is NOT a hate crime. its not even a crime. Its legally exercising your freedom of speech.

I don't think anyone is saying they're the same thing.

But it is celebrating the act that was taken at that site by making it a ceremonial testament to the ideals that caused the murder.

KWhit

06-11-2009, 12:06 PM

So suppose a Muslim group wanted to build a mosque where the Trade Towers were? Or a white supremacist group wanted to put a gun shop up in OKC?

And Samdari, you didn't answer this.

JPhillips

06-11-2009, 12:07 PM

I'd agree it's not a hate crime(especially given that I'm largely opposed to the idea of hate crimes). I'd vehemently disagree that it's a "constructive" way to make a point. The shooter has a long history of ties with Operation Rescue and their desire to buy the building of the deceased is needlessly provocative IMO.

I also don't see a tangible difference between constructing a monument/museum and renovating an existing structure.

sterlingice

06-11-2009, 01:28 PM

I'll go further: they're both terrorists. Aside from his goal of murdering the doctor, that guy also achieved a goal of making people afraid of engaging in, or supporting, a legal activity. Similar (but perhaps less so) with the guy at the Holocaust museum, visiting fear and grief upon the public.

Terrorists aren't just people with Arab, Irish or Basque accents (hyperbole to make a point here), they can also be regular Americans.

Can't wait until Fox News tells us they shouldn't be held in American jails, due to the danger.

Yes, but to that extreme, isn't almost any murder that's not a crime of passion an act of terror? If you're a drug dealer and you want people to respect your territory and kill someone poaching on it, is that terrorism? Mafia killing informant? Bank robber shooting a guard to he gets what he wants? In the end, don't those all evoke terror?

I'd rather we retire the "terrorism" boogeyman from everyday speech and save it for what is most definitely terrorism- something which I'm lacking a coherent definition of at the moment. But you can't just use the definition "anything that evokes fear/terror".

For these two cases, prosecute these crimes for what they were- murder and murder. Same problem I also have with "hate crime" legislation- is it any different is someone kills because they don't like a person personally or don't like a group of people? Again, murder is murder and legislating thought crime is a serious problem.

SI

gstelmack

06-11-2009, 01:32 PM

Terrorism has a specific political element of governmental change. The idea behind a Terror campaign is to get people to think their current government can't protect them, which leads to a change in the government.

Samdari

06-11-2009, 01:52 PM

I don't think anyone is saying they're the same thing.

MBBF listed it among his hate crimes. That's all I disagreed with.

But it is celebrating the act that was taken at that site by making it a ceremonial testament to the ideals that caused the murder.

Such celebration is perfectly legal, if in bad taste, no?

And Samdari, you didn't answer this. So suppose a Muslim group wanted to build a mosque where the Trade Towers were? Or a white supremacist group wanted to put a gun shop up in OKC?.

This is easy. I think a mosque near where the two towers were is a great idea, right next to a church and a synagogue. Are you seriously suggesting that a mosque is a symbol celebrating terrorism and death?

As for the other, have you been to OKC? The number of gun shops with white supremacist literature prominently on display probably numbers in the dozens. This one has been done.

RainMaker

06-11-2009, 02:29 PM

Kind of makes those who were complaining about the DHS report on right-wing extremists look silly now.

KWhit

06-11-2009, 03:23 PM

MBBF listed it among his hate crimes. That's all I disagreed with.

Such celebration is perfectly legal, if in bad taste, no?

This is easy. I think a mosque near where the two towers were is a great idea, right next to a church and a synagogue. Are you seriously suggesting that a mosque is a symbol celebrating terrorism and death?

As for the other, have you been to OKC? The number of gun shops with white supremacist literature prominently on display probably numbers in the dozens. This one has been done.

Way to reframe the question to meet your needs. We didn't say is it okay to have a gun store in Oklahoma city. And is it all right if there's a mosque near the twin towers site (as long as there's a church and temple too).

And we're not talking about legalities. Would it be legal for the pro-life group to do it? Yes. Is it borderline batshit fucking insane? Yes. Does it celebrate the violence and send a message of encouragement to other wackos to do the same thing? Yes. Should the group be called on it and be made subject to public outrage over it? Yes.

panerd

06-11-2009, 03:39 PM

Lets rename Columbine High School "2nd Amendment Secondary School", lets put up a homage to Tojo and Yamamoto at Pearl Harbor, lets put up a KKK museum next to the Lorraine Motel. Obviously these are all jackass ideas but the anti-abortion group is so pompous and out of touch that they don't see a problem with putting a museum up at a facility that was run by a doctor who was murdered by one of their followers. It's their cause or else. And to me this is no worse than radical Islamist terrorists. It really isn't.

panerd

06-11-2009, 03:44 PM

Kind of makes those who were complaining about the DHS report on right-wing extremists look silly now.

Actually it doesn't. I was one of the people outraged that my Bob Barr bumper stickers were considered to be "extreme" by the think tank employed by the Missouri Highway Patrol. I am not an asshole that would kill a doctor or go shoot random people at a holocaust museum so why should I be linked with scum like this because of a political cause?

panerd

06-18-2009, 10:38 PM

FBI: Child porn on accused museum shooter computer | ksdk.com | St. Louis, MO (http://www.ksdk.com/news/national/story.aspx?storyid=178156&catid=28)

1. Is this really that big of a deal next to murdering someone? Are they scared the a life sentence with no parole for 25 years is going to be somehow beat by a 113 year old? Is this worth the time/money?

2. Are they somehow hinting that being a pedophile would cause one to have a white supremacist type crime shooting? Because I would think pedophiles are the type of people you don't want around kids, and I guess sometimes (rarely) the type of person who may murder a child to cover up a crime, but they generally aren't going on hate filled shooting sprees in anything I have come across.

3. Or is this just a way to embarrass the asshole more? Hopefully this is it and if so I am perfectly fine with it. Just please don't also waste the money on part #1 just to be politically correct

RainMaker

06-18-2009, 10:43 PM

It could just be research for behavorial analysis. Getting inside the heads of guys like this helps them in the future. Not much different than when we interview and document serial killers for help down the road. I have no problem with it.

lighthousekeeper

06-18-2009, 10:56 PM

This is why I take detailed notes on anything posted by JiMGA

fantom1979

06-19-2009, 02:39 AM

This is why I take detailed notes on anything posted by JiMGA

:lol:

Samdari

06-19-2009, 07:14 AM

Way to reframe the question to meet your needs. We didn't say is it okay to have a gun store in Oklahoma city. And is it all right if there's a mosque near the twin towers site (as long as there's a church and temple too).

And we're not talking about legalities. Would it be legal for the pro-life group to do it? Yes. Is it borderline batshit fucking insane? Yes. Does it celebrate the violence and send a message of encouragement to other wackos to do the same thing? Yes. Should the group be called on it and be made subject to public outrage over it? Yes.

How did I reframe the question? You asked if it was ok to put up a mosque near the two towers sight, or a gun shop with white supremacist literature in OKC. I simply answered them ("yes", and "there are already dozens").

I guess we just differ in that I actually celebrate everyone's right to peacefully express their views, even if they are unpopular. Putting up a sign, or a building, is inherently nonviolent - as long as the people holding the sign or in the building let others go merrily along their way. If the content of the sign or building or whatever provokes a violent response, the fault lies with the one responding violently, not the one peacefully expressing views, even ones that most people consider reprehensible.

Mizzou B-ball fan

06-19-2009, 08:00 AM

1. Is this really that big of a deal next to murdering someone? Are they scared the a life sentence with no parole for 25 years is going to be somehow beat by a 113 year old? Is this worth the time/money?

It may increase the chances that he gets bludgeoned to death by a fellow inmate. What a shame that would be............

Sgran

06-19-2009, 09:26 AM

I think I've asked this before, but I don't remember getting an answer: do we have a solid definition for what constitutes child porn? I mean, are we talking about 17-year old chicks, incest manga comics or Polaroid pictures of clearly pre-pube kids? I can't remember ever getting details on this. Not that any of it is kosher, but it reminds me of the extremely loose definitions of alcoholism where I'm hard-pressed to name anyone I know who isn't alcoholic.

Wolfpack

06-19-2009, 08:45 PM

Not that any of it is kosher, but it reminds me of the extremely loose definitions of alcoholism where I'm hard-pressed to name anyone I know who isn't alcoholic.

Speaking of things controversial, is it true there's a marijuana problem here in Vietnam?

No! It's not a problem. Everybody has it.

:D