(Sports Discussion) Biggest rivalries?

[SirFozzie]

SackAttack and I were volleying back forth tonight on the greatest rivalries in sports.

He's convinced that Red Sox-Yankees is at best, the third greatest rivalry in major league baseball. He's convinced that Dodgers/Giants is ahead of it and also Cubs/Cardinals.

I disagreed virulently. I can see saying that Dodgers/Giants is a close second to Yankees/Sox (Thinks like Marichal hitting Roseboro over the head with a bat, Jackie Robinson retiring rather than accepting a trade to the Giants). But I really found it laughable that the Cubs/Cardinals are even CLOSE to either of them.

I'll fully admit that I have an east coast bias, having lived here all my life, just as Sack has a west coast bias having lived there a while.. but here's what I would use as a barometer.

Let's say all three rivalries were playing on the same night.. which would ESPN or FOX or etcetera air? There's no question on that one. Yanks-Sox. Up till the 2000 area, it was one-sided yes, but it still held interest. The Sox turning the tables after 2003 have brought things to the point where the Yanks fans obsess as much about the Sox as the Sox fans used to obsess about the Yanks.

It's to the point where a Yankee fan, desperate to reverse the hoodoo that the Sox have had on the Yankees, brought Yankee Stadium grass seeds and water to a Phish concert held at Fenway park, and threw it on the field, hoping to jinx the Sox. (It didn't work, they were swept)

So.. Since Sack and I have bounced this discussion off each other, I'm opening it up to all. What do you think?

[SackAttack]

SackAttack and I were volleying back forth tonight on the greatest rivalries in sports.

He's convinced that Red Sox-Yankees is at best, the third greatest rivalry in major league baseball. He's convinced that Dodgers/Giants is ahead of it and also Cubs/Cardinals.

I disagreed virulently. I can see saying that Dodgers/Giants is a close second to Yankees/Sox (Thinks like Marichal hitting Roseboro over the head with a bat, Jackie Robinson retiring rather than accepting a trade to the Giants). But I really found it laughable that the Cubs/Cardinals are even CLOSE to either of them.

I'll fully admit that I have an east coast bias, having lived here all my life, just as Sack has a west coast bias having lived there a while.. but here's what I would use as a barometer.

Let's say all three rivalries were playing on the same night.. which would ESPN or FOX or etcetera air? There's no question on that one. Yanks-Sox. Up till the 2000 area, it was one-sided yes, but it still held interest. The Sox turning the tables after 2003 have brought things to the point where the Yanks fans obsess as much about the Sox as the Sox fans used to obsess about the Yanks.

It's to the point where a Yankee fan, desperate to reverse the hoodoo that the Sox have had on the Yankees, brought Yankee Stadium grass seeds and water to a Phish concert held at Fenway park, and threw it on the field, hoping to jinx the Sox. (It didn't work, they were swept)

So.. Since Sack and I have bounced this discussion off each other, I'm opening it up to all. What do you think?

I think you're misrepresenting my position. You're referring to fan antics, while I'm referring to love lost, or lack thereof, between the teams themselves.

For context's sake, the discussion sprang up over a line I heard on sports radio the other night, positing that "The Yankees wake up every morning with one goal in mind: beat the Red Sox," and I told Foz I just don't think the Yankees have that kind of a hate-on for Boston.

[SirFozzie]

Is it such a big deal when someone goes from one team to the other in those other two cases? No. Case in Point: "Johnny Damon"

[DeToxRox]

Michigan - Ohio State.

[jbergey22]

1. Yankees/Red Sox
2. Cardinals/Cubs
3. Giants/Dodgers
4. Mets/Phillies

[DeToxRox]

As far as Yanks/Sox, I think rivalries are fueled by how often a big game is played between the teams. More often then not the Yanks and Sox has more riding on it then most games. It's been like that for a long, long time and I don't see it ever changing. I think it's the best pro sports rivalry, let alone best baseball.

[sabotai]

I grew up a Giants fan in Eagles country, so you can imagine in my world, Eagles-Giants is the biggest rivalry.

Are we talking "of all time" or currently? Lakers-Celtics for basketball (if we are talking all-time) has got to be up there.

[SirFozzie]

actually, I should say that in all of the cases above (other then Michigan-Ohio State one), it's no longer about the players having such a personal hate on for each other.

They're all playing for a paycheck primarily. the laundry they wear is secondary to the amount on the paystub.

So it may be that there's NO such cases of things like the Roseboro incident these days. There are still some verbal spats (look at Girardi going after Penny for throwing at A-Rod, Red Sox owner John Henry twitteringn about Yankees slugger Mark Teixiera (and Tex's angry response back to Henry)..

[DeToxRox]

As far as the other sports, it's hard because right now some rivalries are hot, but that doesn't mean they will be.

I'd say in the NFL right now Colts vs Pats, Giants vs Eagles and Steelers vs Ravens are the best rivalries, but all time it has to be something out of the NFC East. I'd be inclined to say the Giants and Eagles but I am not sure how strongly I'd feel about it tomorrow.

In the NHL right now it's Wings/Ducks, then probably Wings/Pens only because there is a good chance we could see a third SCF next year between them, and then Pens/Caps. But look at the Wings/Avs, it was the best rivalry in pro sports for 5 years then totally died so it doesn't have the longevity a Bruins/Habs has.

NBA, I don't even know. It seems to switch every year.

[DeToxRox]

actually, I should say that in all of the cases above (other then Michigan-Ohio State one), it's no longer about the players having such a personal hate on for each other.

They're all playing for a paycheck primarily. the laundry they wear is secondary to the amount on the paystub.

So it may be that there's NO such cases of things like the Roseboro incident these days. There are still some verbal spats (look at Girardi going after Penny for throwing at A-Rod, Red Sox owner John Henry twitteringn about Yankees slugger Mark Teixiera (and Tex's angry response back to Henry)..

Pro and college rivalries are different so it's probably not the same to compare both together. College rivalries are way more heated for the most part. A lot more live and die stuff. Pro rivalries get that but it's not always ingrained like a college rivalry.

[SackAttack]

Is it such a big deal when someone goes from one team to the other in those other two cases? No. Case in Point: "Johnny Damon"

But two things.

1) How often has a player gone directly from one of the teams in question to the other without a trade having been involved? I think Damon might be the only example, and the Dodgers and Giants generally just do not trade with one another. It's happened exactly twice in my lifetime.

Even Juan Marichal spent time in Boston in between his Giants and Dodgers stints.

2) How much do you think Johnny Damon signing with the Red Sox would have mattered without the 2004 World Series - the Red Sox's first title in 86 years?

Red Sox players who also played for the New York Yankees - SoSH | Boston Red Sox | Red Sox Rumors | Spring Training | Pawtucket Red Sox (http://sonsofsamhorn.net/wiki/index.php/Red_Sox_players_who_also_played_for_the_New_York_Yankees)

Almost nobody of note went from the Yankees to the Red Sox any way other than via trade. Boggs and Damon signed directly with the Yankees, while Clemens got there via Toronto. You don't get the shockers like a Derek Jeter deciding "Screw you, Boss. I'm going to Boston." There have been, on the other hand, at least three high-profile guys who have made the switch going the other way. So how does that damage my assertion that the Yankees simply do not wake up with "beat the Red Sox" as their prime mover?

By contrast:

Dodgers–Giants rivalry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodgers-Giants_Rivalry#Players_who_played_or_worked_for_Both_Teams)

Much shorter list. Before the Sweeney trade, it had been 20+ years since those two teams traded with one another, and Jeff Kent is probably the highest profile guy to start with one team and go to the other, in terms of sustained performance for both teams. Orel Hershiser, I hated to see him play for the Giants, but he wasn't the pitcher in San Francisco that he was in Los Angeles. Duke Snider was in his final season when he played for San Francisco. Juan Marichal pitched in two games for the Dodgers, in his final season.

Players changing sides? It doesn't happen between LA and SF. Not by trade, not by free agent signing, not when the player is still a force in the league.

[Wolfpack]

Yanks-Sox has had a weird dichotomy since the Wild Card was introduced. I think the regular season has generally declined in importance in terms of the head-to-head, but the playoffs have really ratcheted things up now that they've both got good chances of getting in and they've gone at it for the AL title a few times, something they couldn't do before 1995. No doubt, the teams are interested in taking skins off each other, but it's all geared now towards that potential ALCS matchup rather than trying to chase each other through 162 games. What I think really launched the rivalry into the stratosphere it's in now were those two ALCSs in 2003 and 2004 and how they played out (one apparently solidifying The Curse, the other obliterating it). I don't think this rivalry would have nearly the push it has if they didn't meet for those titles and play all those games with all of the storylines that unfolded as they did.

Oh, and it doesn't hurt that the single most important sports network is headquartered smack in between the two teams and that one of them occupies the single-biggest market in the United States. People end up caring largely because they're told to because the Yankees and Red Sox fill up the airwaves as much as they do.

I think Dodgers-Giants is pretty solid, though, if only because the hate survived the transplant to California and neatly fit the geography and culture of the state. It's not the cross-city rivalry it used to be, but as big as California is now, it really doesn't matter. It just doesn't get much play because of the time difference and generally because in the last decade or so, neither team has been consistently great. The NL West is also much more balanced than the AL East over time (even if mediocre) as evidenced by the fact that every team in the West since realignment to the six-division format has made the World Series except, oddly, LA, which hasn't been since 1988 (though they've had their share of playoff appearances). Such parity dampens the importance of the Giants-Dodgers games a little since it also typically means that when one team has been good, the other hasn't been. The matchup has been more notable for one team ruining the other as a spoiler late in the season.

As for Cards-Cubs, yes, it's a long-standing historical rivalry, but in terms of impact on the season, until recently it hasn't really had that kind of juice due to one or both teams being non-contenders (particularly the Cubs). However, the Cubs have really pushed hard for that brass ring the last several years and the Cards have been to two World Series and won one, so this rivalry I think is picking up steam now. I think it really needs maybe an NLCS battle or even a last-week meeting over a couple of consecutive years to settle the NL Central or Wild Card to really get the fires going, though. Right now, that rivalry is more known for the home run derby from 1998 than anything else.

[Jas_lov]

Yankees-Red Sox is #1 hands down.

For the NFL, Packers-Bears is #1 but Packers-Vikings will get a lot more interesting when Favre signs with the Vikings. Then you'll have a better test case than Johnny Damon, although Favre wouldn't have gone directly to the rival and he's way past his prime to be effective.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I'm mostly joking here, but I'll go with Rangers and Devils. Ever since the Rockies moved to New Jersey and became the Devils in 1982, these two teams have never traded with one another. I don't live in the area, but I get the feeling the rivalry means more to Devils fans than Rangers fans, but it's still pretty significant.

I am mostly joking, though.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Dola

Actually, the greatest rivalry in pro sports was the "War on I-4" between the Tampa Bay Storm and Orlando Predators of the Arena Football League. :D

[MrBug708]

I think if ESPN didn't exist, the Yankees-BoSox rivalry wouldn't even be a top 5 in baseball, but that could just be me.

As far as the Giants-Dodgers series go, I think Sack is dead on (Naturally). I can't speak to what it's like between the Yankees-BoSox, but to me, it always seemed like Boston was the one who was much more invested into the rivalry. As far as the Dodgers-Giants series, I don't think there was much more of a polarizing figure then all of sports other then Barry Bonds. I don't think a city could hate one person more then LA hated Barry Bonds. It's always a sight to behold. I also did wonder how well the Dodgers would have embraced Bonds had he ever made it over to our side via FA? Karl Malone was probably the previous hated figure in all of sports, but he assimilated into the second greatest sports franchise, quite easily :)

[jbergey22]

I think if ESPN didn't exist, the Yankees-BoSox rivalry wouldn't even be a top 5 in baseball, but that could just be me.

As far as the Giants-Dodgers series go, I think Sack is dead on (Naturally). I can't speak to what it's like between the Yankees-BoSox, but to me, it always seemed like Boston was the one who was much more invested into the rivalry. As far as the Dodgers-Giants series, I don't think there was much more of a polarizing figure then all of sports other then Barry Bonds. I don't think a city could hate one person more then LA hated Barry Bonds. It's always a sight to behold. I also did wonder how well the Dodgers would have embraced Bonds had he ever made it over to our side via FA? Karl Malone was probably the previous hated figure in all of sports, but he assimilated into the second greatest sports franchise, quite easily :)


The rivalry was pretty huge prior to 1979 so I dont think we can blame ESPN for deciding this should be the most heavily promoted rivalry in baseball athough Id love to agree with you:)

[MrBug708]

The rivalry was pretty huge prior to 1979 so I dont think we can blame ESPN for deciding this should be the most heavily promoted rivalry in baseball athough Id love to agree with you:)

According to my USC friends, one side has to actually do something for it to be considered a rivalry :)

[Radii]

I think if ESPN didn't exist, the Yankees-BoSox rivalry wouldn't even be a top 5 in baseball, but that could just be me.


yeah, its just you.

[Radii]

Pro and college rivalries are different so it's probably not the same to compare both together. College rivalries are way more heated for the most part. A lot more live and die stuff. Pro rivalries get that but it's not always ingrained like a college rivalry.

I agree with this. The top college rivalries blow away anything we're discussing in this thread IMO, the great college rivalries have games nearly every year that are meaningful for 50+ years. Parity in the pros makes this nearly impossible.

To me Yankees/Sox has always seemed the top pro rivalry even before ESPN beat it into us.


As a kid growing up in a region with no pro teams, I was a huge Cubs fan in baseball and Cowboys fan in football. In the early-mid 1980s I wasn't even aware that the Cubs had a big rival. I've never hated the Cardinals, and I don't particularly ever remember Harry Caray or Steve Stone telling me why I should hate the Cardinals any more than any other team when I watched them play. They sure haven't played a lot of meaningful games against each other in my lifetime. But as a Dallas fan, oh boy did I hate the Redskins, and their fans. HATED. I stopped loving Dallas when Tom Landry was run out, and completely renounced them when the Panthers came into existence, but I still to this day cannot root for the Redskins.

[JetsIn06]

I grew up a big Yankee fan and I'll say that I hated the Red Sox with a passion. I no longer root for the Yankees, but I still HATE the Red Sox.

Jets fans really hate the Patriots, but hate the Dolphins even more.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Only problem with Sox/Yankees is it seemed to take about two decades off.

[spleen1015]

I agree with the assertion that ESPN plays the Yankees/Red Sox to be bigger than it is. I think there have been a lot of situations where they have pumped it up and a vast majority of MLB fans couldn't give 2 shits.

For me, the Duke/UNC rivalry is the biggest.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

On the other hand, spleen, the rest of MLB fans couldn't give two shits about Cards/Cubs or Giants/Dodgers.

Football and CBB are different matters.

[tarcone]

Iowa/Iowa State Wrestling is the biggest rivalry out there. No contest. Every year they battle for the national championship. 15000 people will fill the arenas to see this matchup. There is no comparison to it. Anywhere.

[Oilers9911]

Rangers-Celtic
Lazio-Roma
Fenerbahce-Galatasary
and so on and so forth.

None of the rivalries previously names can get you killed if you walk around in the wrong colours. European football rivalries make North American rivalries look like church picnics.

[Philliesfan980]

Iowa/Iowa State Wrestling is the biggest rivalry out there. No contest. Every year they battle for the national championship. 15000 people will fill the arenas to see this matchup. There is no comparison to it. Anywhere.

Lehigh - Lafayette for football is really big too.

[Big Fo]

Manchester United - Liverpool
Real Madrid - Barcelona
Orlando Magic - NBA refs

West coast people downplaying Yankees - Red Sox in relation to their own regional rivalry is always cute.

[lighthousekeeper]

Iowa/Iowa State Wrestling is the biggest rivalry out there. No contest. Every year they battle for the national championship. 15000 people will fill the arenas to see this matchup. There is no comparison to it. Anywhere.

wow 15,000 people? that's unmatched. Anywhere.

[lighthousekeeper]

Rangers-Celtic
Lazio-Roma
Fenerbahce-Galatasary
and so on and so forth.

None of the rivalries previously names can get you killed if you walk around in the wrong colours. European football rivalries make North American rivalries look like church picnics.

you have a good point. the biggest rivalry must be one of the major european soccer matchups. i don't follow european soccer, but Rangers/Celtic seems like a situation that is perfectly setup for a huge rivalry.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

MU/KU. It's been discussed many times on this board, but the hatred in this rivalry dating back to the mid-1800s rivals anything you'll see in any rivalry.

On a sidenote, having lived on the East Coast, I'd note that the pro sports rivalries on the East Coast, having been around for so long and in such close proximity to each other, are huge. The college rivalries in the flyover country and on the West Coast are much more comparable given a similar proximity than the pro sports out here, which have a much shorter history.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I have never met anyone who gave a shit about MU/KU.

[Big Fo]

I guess it depends on what we're talking about, is the biggest rivalry the one that the most fans care about or one with the highest level of hatred without considering the popularity of the two teams and sport?

MU/KU could be considered for the latter but nobody would suggest that rivalry for the former.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I have never met anyone who gave a shit about MU/KU.

That's because you live in the insulated bubble otherwise known as New England.

It's regularly listed in the top 5 of college rivalries whenever a list is put out.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

That's because you live in the insulated bubble otherwise known as New England.

It's regularly listed in the top 5 of college rivalries whenever a list is put out.

Well, I lived for 10 years in Chicago. I'd say the insulated bubble might be located in Missourah.

[lighthousekeeper]

I have never met anyone who gave a shit about MU/KU.

Having lived in both NJ and KC, I would have to agree that the passion people in the respective area have for the KU/MU rivalry completely surpasses any fan passion for the NY/BOS rivalry. It's not even close.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I guess it depends on what we're talking about, is the biggest rivalry the one that the most fans care about or one with the highest level of hatred without considering the popularity of the two teams and sport?

MU/KU could be considered for the latter but nobody would suggest that rivalry for the former.

I'm not sure that 'the one that the most fans care about' is an accurate assessment given that it gives the nod to population centers rather than whether it's a good rivalry. A rivalry is made by the feelings of the fan base, not by how many there are. That method of assessment doesn't downgrade rivalries like a Red Sox/Yankees or UNC/Duke. They are top of the line.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Having lived in both NJ and KC, I would have to agree that the passion people in the respective area have for the KU/MU rivalry completely surpasses any fan passion for the NY/BOS rivalry. It's not even close.

You'll get no argument from me there, college rivalries in general are much more heated than pro ones. I think the Yanks/Sox is a bit of a media fabrication as well.

I just think of plenty of other college rivalries before KU/MU even enters my mind.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Well, I lived for 10 years in Chicago. I'd say the insulated bubble might be located in Missourah.

I'm not the one saying no one gives a shit about the other's rivalry. Anyone who dismisses the MU/KU rivalry has obviously not experienced it. Anyone who has will tell you that it's easily one of the most intense, if not THE most intense rivalry in the nation.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Right, and my high school HATED our rival, but no one else in the country gave a shit.

Edit: I mean to say its a parochial rivalry.

[Big Fo]

I'm not sure that 'the one that the most fans care about' is an accurate assessment given that it gives the nod to population centers rather than whether it's a good rivalry. A rivalry is made by the feelings of the fan base, not by how many there are. That method of assessment downgrade rivalries like a Red Sox/Yankees or UNC/Duke. They are top of the line.

Well I think that, theoretically, if the Yankees and Red Sox rivalry had the same level of hatred as two rival high schools, that you would consider the Yanks/Sox rivalry bigger because of the number of fans involved despite equal hatred.

[rowech]

For my money, there's no more better rivalry than Army-Navy. Obviously, a lot more plays into it other than just the game.

As far as baseball goes, ESPN has made the Yankees-Red Sox bigger than what it is. It's become disgusting the way ESPN plays this out which is why I've pretty much switched over to Fox Sports entirely.

It probably is the #1 baseball rivalry with the Dodgers-Giants being #2.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Well I think that, theoretically, if the Yankees and Red Sox rivalry had the same level of hatred as two rival high schools, that you would consider the Yanks/Sox rivalry bigger because of the number of fans involved despite equal hatred.

I think you and Ronnie should create your own 'biggest HS rivalries' thread at this point. You're obviously taking the argument to a ridiculous extreme at this point. Ronnie's attempting to minimize the MU/KU rivalry as legitimate in this discussion as was obvious by his initial response.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

For my money, there's no more better rivalry than Army-Navy. Obviously, a lot more plays into it other than just the game.

I'd argue that this rivalry is huge. It's another rivalry where the emotion far trumps anything that can be artificially trumped up by ESPN.

[Big Fo]

I think you and Ronnie should create your own 'biggest HS rivalries' thread at this point. You're obviously taking the argument to a ridiculous extreme at this point. Ronnie's attempting to minimize the MU/KU rivalry as legitimate in this discussion as was obvious by his initial response.

lol

All I'm saying there is more than one way to judge what is the biggest rivalry. Just passion or passion/number of fans/how often titles are on the line in said rivalry. No need to be defensive, I didn't compare KU/MU to high school despite the level of defense often seen in Big 12 football games.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

lol

All I'm saying there is more than one way to judge what is the biggest rivalry. Just passion or passion/number of fans/how often titles are on the line in said rivalry. No need to be defensive, I didn't compare KU/MU to high school despite the level of defense often seen in Big 12 football games.

Oh boy......

:D

[JonInMiddleGA]

At some point you probably have to decide how much "the biggest rivalry" is determined by level of hatred between those directly participating versus the same feelings in those with some rooting interest in the teams involved versus and the level of interest generated by the teams.

For pure hatred, I'm not sure anything comes close to any number of college football rivalries. As much as I'd like to say GT/UGA is as pronounced as any, I really think the pure unabashed hatred crown might still rest with Alabama/Auburn (although there might be something in Texas that could contend), it borders on psychotic how much seems to be defined by your allegiance to one or the other when those two are involved.

For increasing national level of interest, Yankees/Red Sox are at the top for sure (although for me personally for the pros it's any largely theoretical Dodgers/Yankees matchup followed by Dodgers/Giants).

And then you have to factor in the impact if the games aren't particularly meaningful vs cases when the two teams are playing for something at a higher level. To pick out an example, I don't think the Colts/Pats mentioned up the thread somewhere (and is one I take personal interest in) would have the same impact if they were both 3-5 for the third straight season when they met.

[Alan T]

At some point you probably have to decide how much "the biggest rivalry" is determined by level of hatred between those directly participating versus the same feelings in those with some rooting interest in the teams involved versus and the level of interest generated by the teams.

For pure hatred, I'm not sure anything comes close to any number of college football rivalries. As much as I'd like to say GT/UGA is as pronounced as any, I really think the pure unabashed hatred crown might still rest with Alabama/Auburn (although there might be something in Texas that could contend), it borders on psychotic how much seems to be defined by your allegiance to one or the other when those two are involved.



I probably agree with these thoughts. Even though I always enjoy watching UGA lose, it never really was something I was passionate about. In general the "rivalry" between GT and UGA was simply limited to us making fun of their academic standards with various witty jokes, and I'm not sure what their jokes about us would be.. but that was about it. Auburn-Alabama definitely seemed the biggest passionate rivalry when it came to college sports in the area.

One thing I've noticed about rivalries and just basic sports fandom from living in different parts of the country now is different areas have their different levels they like to watch. In Texas you had pro-sports fans, you had college sports fans, but the level people watched HS ball, and the High school rivalries there were far bigger then some sports rivalries (I guarantee you there were more passionate fans at some Texas Football games in the 90s when I lived there, then fans at say a Falcons vs Saints game in the late 80s). In the Southeast where I grew up, seeing 70,000 - 100,000 raving fans at a football game was not unusual and that was all anyone talked about or cared about, thus the college rivalries always were the biggest. Now living in New England, it is like Highschool or college sports are an afterthought and all they care about here is pro rivalries (Red Sox - yankees, Celtics - Lakers, etc)...

So I guess in a way it makes sense to compare an Ohio State vs Michigan rivalry with a Red Sox - Yankees rivalry.. in those areas, that is the biggest rivalry which stirs up the most passion between fans. It is really really tough to have a national rivalry.. they really don't exist, so of course someone in the midwest will always feel their rivalry is bigger, better, badder than someone's rivalry in the Northwest, that is just how it goes.

[BYU 14]

I also have to go Yankees / Red Sox in terms of national interest media hype, which makes it suck all the more the Red Sox are owning the Yankees this year. :mad:

Tradition wise I have to go with Army / Navy or Harvard / Yale (The latter maybe not so much now, but in the first 50 years of the 20th century there was none better.

With all due respect to the SEC rivalries BYU / Utah rivals any for pure hatred, though it doesn't get the play that the BCS boys do. I know families that are on different sides that don't talk for weeks or even months after the game. The Godfather of my kids, who was a High School teammate of mine and one of the best friends I have ever had, lived across the street from me for 7 years before we left Utah was a Ute fan. I won't even go into the stuff we did to each other during rivalry week :)

[Logan]

There definitely has to be national scope to this sort of discussion. Rutgers and Seton Hall basketball hate each other, we had a solid few years where fights during games were frequent, but no one outside of the immediate area gives a shit.

Put me in with others who say Yankees/Sox, UNC/Duke, Michigan/Ohio State...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Even though I always enjoy watching UGA lose, it never really was something I was passionate about. In general the "rivalry" between GT and UGA was simply limited to us making fun of their academic standards with various witty jokes, and I'm not sure what their jokes about us would be.. but that was about it. Auburn-Alabama definitely seemed the biggest passionate rivalry when it came to college sports in the area.

Lest there be any misunderstanding about what I meant though, make no mistake, I'd still passionately root for UGA j.v. water polo to finish third in a three way match against the Al-Qaida Attackers & the North Korea Nutjobs, so it's not as though there's any shortage of hatred there afaic. But it's amped up another level in my experience when you get to Alabama/Auburn, those people would burn down each others houses in the middle of the night (after barricading the doors to prevent escape) if not for the fear of being caught.

[Alan T]

One of the things I notice with national level rivalries, often times one of the teams involved is someone that "everyone" hates. For instance, the Yankees are popular to hate on due to their mad spending and longevity of success, so people around the country started rooting for the Red Sox to be the David to the Yankees Goliath. That has somewhat lessened the past 10 years however as the Red Sox have started to spend more than everyone else not the Yankees and have had more success than the Yankees for the past 10 years.

In the case of UNC/Duke, Duke is a team that I swear everyone hates. (maybe just everyone in the ACC at least) :) So encouraging the UNC/Duke rivalry in a way for many people is a best attempt for a team to destroy Duke. (Even though historically UNC has had more success than Duke, Duke seems to be more hated).

It seems where rivalries that don't have that lightning rod just don't see as much in the way of national coverage. For instance I am full aware of the longstanding Cubs vs Cards rivalry, but for people not involved in that rivalry, it doesn't get as much interest simply because neither the Cubs nor the Cards are a team that anyone hates. Perhaps back in the 80s it might have been different as the Cards have been one of the most successful teams in history, while the Cubs are a team that everyone feels sorry for, I don't see that as being as much a big deal these days in attracting "Cards haters".

[MrBug708]

I think you and Ronnie should create your own 'biggest HS rivalries' thread at this point. You're obviously taking the argument to a ridiculous extreme at this point. Ronnie's attempting to minimize the MU/KU rivalry as legitimate in this discussion as was obvious by his initial response.

Just curious, but you are discounting anyone else's passion for their own rivalry. I can just as easily point to your own ignorance about not experiencing other school's rivalries because of your own bubble. There are different factors to take into what someone puts into it. Mizzou-KU is a pretty big rivalry for basketball, but if you asked anyone what they thought of the football rivalry, I'd say that it would be slightly ahead of maybe a UCLA-Stanford rivarly for football.

I have never seen two sides hate each other more then Arizona-ASU. The polarization of their fan base is a sight to behold. For all of our history, UCLA really has no true rival in basketball. Maybe the fan bases of Kentucky and North Carolina. And that generally boils down to Sam Gilbert

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I think you and Ronnie should create your own 'biggest HS rivalries' thread at this point. You're obviously taking the argument to a ridiculous extreme at this point. Ronnie's attempting to minimize the MU/KU rivalry as legitimate in this discussion as was obvious by his initial response.

Listen, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. Despite living in New England, I know people who are into Michigan/OSU, Duke/UNC, Texas/OK, Florida/FSU, and other college rivalries. MU/KU seems pretty far down the list to me. If this thread were MBBF's biggest rivalries, then you would have me dead to rights.

[sterlingice]

On the other hand, spleen, the rest of MLB fans couldn't give two shits about Cards/Cubs or Giants/Dodgers.

Football and CBB are different matters.

Yeah, but a lot of MLB fans could give two shits about Yankees/Red Sox even when it's shoved down our throats. Or, hell, because it's shoved down our throats. I know I'm in the minority, but I'm definitely not alone. I didn't care about the Yankees-Red Sox game on MLBN this week because if I wanted to see that, I could turn on ESPN or Fox any time. But two of the first three weeks of the season, I was all over the Brewers-Giants and Blue Jays-Twins games because we *never* get to see those teams unless they're playing one of the 4 or 5 "marque" teams.

SI

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Yes, but those aren't rivalries.

[sterlingice]

I agree with this. The top college rivalries blow away anything we're discussing in this thread IMO, the great college rivalries have games nearly every year that are meaningful for 50+ years. Parity in the pros makes this nearly impossible.

I don't think it's parity but I agree 100% that college rivalries blow away pro ones. I think it has to do with the feeling of ownership over your college team as you went there and invested far more time and money there than you did at any professional team at an impressionable time in your life and you were willing to pick up a nice "hate" for your rival. Not only that, but you were part of a group of maybe 50K students at most at the time which you share your team with rather than a city of 5M or whatever. People just feel closer to their schools.

SI

[Huckleberry]

As much as I'd like to say GT/UGA is as pronounced as any, I really think the pure unabashed hatred crown might still rest with Alabama/Auburn (although there might be something in Texas that could contend), it borders on psychotic how much seems to be defined by your allegiance to one or the other when those two are involved.

Texas/Oklahoma

Texas A&M is Texas' second biggest rival, certainly in football. It drives the Aggies nuts, too, for the record.

[sterlingice]

Rangers-Celtic
Lazio-Roma
Fenerbahce-Galatasary
and so on and so forth.

None of the rivalries previously names can get you killed if you walk around in the wrong colours. European football rivalries make North American rivalries look like church picnics.

My family and I were in Istanbul in 1993 when 2 of the 3 big teams were playing (I think Besiktas is the other) and it we didn't know what was going on. It was like a riot had broken out in the streets. Only later did we find out it was "just" a football match ;)

SI

[Noop]

Alabama/Auburn
UNC/Duke
Michigan/Ohio State

I am sure soccer has some intense rivalries as well.

[jbergey22]

Yeah Im really not sure how Mizz/KU get brought into this discussion. I can think of atleast 3 rivalries in the Big 12 alone that would seem to be bigger than Mizz/KU.

Nebraska/Oklahoma
Texas/Oklahoma
Colorado/Nebraska

Id put Mizz/KU on the same line as Oklahoma St/Oklahoma and the Aggies/Horns

Im a gopher fan but wouldnt dream of trying to list Gophers/Badgers or Gophers/Hawkeyes as one of the greatest rivalries in college football.

[Galaxy]

Toronto-Montreal in the NHL. (Calgary-Edmonton?)

College: Alabama/Auburn, UNC/Duke, Michigan/Ohio State, UCLA/USC.

NBA: Lakers-Celtics.

Baseball: Yankees-Sox and LA-SF.

[Huckleberry]

Yeah Im really not sure how Mizz/KU get brought into this discussion. I can think of atleast 3 rivalries in the Big 12 alone that would seem to be bigger than Mizz/KU.

Nebraska/Oklahoma
Texas/Oklahoma
Colorado/Nebraska

Id put Mizz/KU on the same line as Oklahoma St/Oklahoma and the Aggies/Horns

Im a gopher fan but wouldnt dream of trying to list Gophers/Badgers or Gophers/Hawkeyes as one of the greatest rivalries in college football.

To be fair, the antipathy factor is much greater in MU/KU than any of those other than Texas/Oklahoma, IMO. The problem is that the two schools are historically fairly inept at football and basketball is one-sided in terms of championships. The two schools definitely hate each other and it's a great rivalry for the students, alumni, players, and staffs.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_-8Ug790u0aA/R0SAvQCceoI/AAAAAAAAAA8/jZcKb6SOsF8/s1600/scoreboard.jpg

Bleeding Kansas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleeding_Kansas)

[sterlingice]

Bleeding Kansas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleeding_Kansas)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/15/John_Brown_Painting.JPG

Yes, folks, this is what it still looks like between, say, Philadelphia, and California, even today. I present to you "The midwest", complete with tornadoes, wagon trains, and crazy John Brown!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:John_Brown_Painting.JPG

SI

[Radii]

Well when I posted last night people were only discussing pro rivalries so i obviously didn't say anything about my obvious choice for favorite/biggest rivalry.

IMO UNC/Duke basketball is the perfect storm for the perfect rivalry. The two schools are 8 miles apart. The students(and often the players) go to the same restaurants, clubs, barbers, etc. They intermingle like no other top rivals on a daily basis. UNC-Chapel Hill is an excellent public university, Duke is an excellent private university, which generates a good bit of a common man vs the elite type of atmosphere, at least from the Carolina fan perspective ;)


But the biggest thing is simply success. These two schools have had sustained success for an incredibly long amount of time. The games have national importance more frequently and over a longer period of time than any other rivalry. This was my point about how pro rivalries cannot hold up, what SI said about the feeling of ownership involved w/ college sports tops pro sports in most cases is very true, but there is simply no pro rivalry that has sustained success on both sides the way the top college rivalries have had, and a lull of a decade when one or both teams are simply not good really hurts a rivalry.

And in this particular one:

The last time when neither was ranked in either polls was February 25, 1955 when Duke (ranked as high as #17 earlier in the season) beat North Carolina (unranked all year). Seriously, how ridiculous is that? One of these two teams has been ranked every single meeting in either the AP or Coaches/UPI poll for the last 54 years.

# North Carolina has been ranked in the AP poll in 102 of the last 124 matchups. Duke was ranked in 79 of those 124 match-ups. Duke and North Carolina have met 66 times when both teams were ranked in the Top 25, with the series record at 34-32 for North Carolina.


The ACC was formed in 1953:

ACC Regular Season Championships

* North Carolina - 27 (1st)
* Duke - 18 (2nd)

ACC Tournament Championships

* Duke - 17 (T-1st)
* North Carolina - 17 (T-1st)

Duke and North Carolina have combined to win 79% of the conference's regular season titles and 58% of the tournament titles since the ACC's founding in 1953.


And of course that would be a great regional rivalry regardless of what has happened on a national scale, but we've got that too:

NCAA Final Fours

* North Carolina - 18 (1st all-time)
* Duke - 14 (3rd all-time)

NCAA Tournament Championships

* North Carolina - 5 (tied for 3rd all-time)
* Duke - 3 (tied for 5th all-time)


Additionally, UNC is #2 in all time wins in NCAA Basketball history, Duke is #4.


Duke won their first national title in 1991. Since 1991 Duke and UNC have won 6 of the 19 national championships. One of the two has been in the final four in 18 of the last 24 years, with both making it in 1991.


Take two schools 8 miles apart, make them great natural rivals, make them the most dominant schools in their conference over a half-century by an absurd margin over anyone else in the league, make them the #1 and #2 programs on a national scale by any measure of success during most of our lifetime's, and make them 2 of the top 6 programs in the history of the sport(without trying to argue eras or who is #1, the top 6 seem unable to be questioned IMO, Kentucky, Kansas, UCLA, Indiana, Duke, Carolina in some order), and you have a rivalry like no other.

[jbergey22]

Hard to argue with NC/Duke

[Crapshoot]

Yeah, but a lot of MLB fans could give two shits about Yankees/Red Sox even when it's shoved down our throats. Or, hell, because it's shoved down our throats. I know I'm in the minority, but I'm definitely not alone. I didn't care about the Yankees-Red Sox game on MLBN this week because if I wanted to see that, I could turn on ESPN or Fox any time. But two of the first three weeks of the season, I was all over the Brewers-Giants and Blue Jays-Twins games because we *never* get to see those teams unless they're playing one of the 4 or 5 "marque" teams.

SI

I think you're pretty extreme here SI; you've made it abundantly clear you dislike anything to do with the coastal elites. :D I enjoy Yanks-Red Sox; its far more interesting to me than watching a Pirates-Brewers game, for example. It gets overhyped because it sells; we know this.

Edit: to be clear, its frustrating when the first 20 min of BBTN is about the Yankees backup C while some other team is throwing a no-hitter, but overall, and I bet JIMGA can confirm, the ratings bear out far more on that one.

[Wolfpack]

Take two schools 8 miles apart, make them great natural rivals, make them the most dominant schools in their conference over a half-century by an absurd margin over anyone else in the league, make them the #1 and #2 programs on a national scale by any measure of success during most of our lifetime's, and make them 2 of the top 6 programs in the history of the sport(without trying to argue eras or who is #1, the top 6 seem unable to be questioned IMO, Kentucky, Kansas, UCLA, Indiana, Duke, Carolina in some order), and you have a rivalry like no other.

Um, NC State, their fans, their 10 ACC championships and their two national titles (one less than hallowed Duke) beg to differ. ;)

And to the mention earlier that Duke is the most hated team in the Duke-UNC rivalry, you don't live here. North Carolinians who are not fan of either Duke (you have to look to find them) or Carolina hate Duke, but absolutely loathe Carolina. Don't get me wrong, Carolina by far has the largest support base in the state, but that also leads to it being the most hated (Carolina's fanbase is just about the worst for having a percentage that has absolutely no interest in the school aside from the basketball program). Duke can be hated, but it's tempered somewhat because they all retreat back to New Jersey after graduating, but Carolina and their fans are a permanent blight on our fair landscape. ;)

[Huckleberry]

I think some of you are associating the national impact, coverage, and ratings of rivalry games far more with the inherent quality of the rivalry than you should be. Lots of these have the national impact, coverage, and ratings only because the teams are good. Nobody gave two shits about the Yankees/Red Sox rivalry in 1992 because the teams sucked.

Now is where we get into semantics, but to me being a "big" rivalry has nothing to do with being an "important" rivalry. That's why I think Missouri/Kansas justifiably belongs in this conversation. That is a big rivalry.

[SackAttack]

So would anybody care to address the radio guy's statement that "The Yankees wake up each morning with one goal in mind - beat the Red Sox"?

Whether or not it's a great rivalry, I think that line is a pile of shit, and that's what prompted the rivalry discussion between me and Foz in the first place - that while it may be a great rivalry, it's not *that* kind of a rivalry...which, IMO, Dodgers/Giants and Mizzou/Kansas, while they may not be classically great rivalries, ARE those kind of down-and-dirty (root for them to finish third in a three-way with Al-Qaeda and North Korea situation, as Jon said) sort of rivalries.

[Wolfpack]

So would anybody care to address the radio guy's statement that "The Yankees wake up each morning with one goal in mind - beat the Red Sox"?

Whether or not it's a great rivalry, I think that line is a pile of shit, and that's what prompted the rivalry discussion between me and Foz in the first place - that while it may be a great rivalry, it's not *that* kind of a rivalry...which, IMO, Dodgers/Giants and Mizzou/Kansas, while they may not be classically great rivalries, ARE those kind of down-and-dirty (root for them to finish third in a three-way with Al-Qaeda and North Korea situation, as Jon said) sort of rivalries.

If they don't care about beating Boston, then are the Yankees without a rival (i.e. someone who they do care about beating)? Or is everybody else just annoying gnats to them? I could see that being so because they have so many championships, but I also could see it the other way for while the institutional memory between the Yankees and Red Sox is long and much more in favor of the Yankees, the short-term memory (the collective experience of the players currently playing) has the Red Sox ahead in recent years and therefore the Yankees do need to wake up thinking about how to beat the Red Sox. Perhaps that is the source of the thought, not that it's a loathing of the other side, but simply how to beat a team that's had a great deal of recent success against the Yankees.

[Radii]

Um, NC State, their fans, their 10 ACC championships and their two national titles (one less than hallowed Duke) beg to differ. ;)

fair enough, but NC State has disappeared for too long to be in the equation sadly. I loved hating Jim Valvano in the 80s, but its just pity now for the Wolfpack. I would love to change that again :D But we've had that conversation a number of times before.



And to the mention earlier that Duke is the most hated team in the Duke-UNC rivalry, you don't live here. North Carolinians who are not fan of either Duke (you have to look to find them) or Carolina hate Duke, but absolutely loathe Carolina.

Absolutely, and proud of it for the most part. I look forward to recent trends continuing and causing national hatred of North Carolina increasing again ;)

[Huckleberry]

fair enough, but NC State has disappeared for too long to be in the equation sadly. I loved hating Jim Valvano in the 80s, but its just pity now for the Wolfpack. I would love to change that again :D But we've had that conversation a number of times before.




Absolutely, and proud of it for the most part. I look forward to recent trends continuing and causing national hatred of North Carolina increasing again ;)

We fans of dominant state schools know the feeling well. ;)

[JonInMiddleGA]

So would anybody care to address the radio guy's statement that "The Yankees wake up each morning with one goal in mind - beat the Red Sox"?

Wait a minute, somebody actually said that? Shit, that's just silly.

Outside of maybe game two or three of a heated series with some bad blood, I don't think there's five guys in all of pro sports who think like that about any team opponent today (obviously playoff series would be a technical exception since that's who you have to beat).

[Wolfpack]

fair enough, but NC State has disappeared for too long to be in the equation sadly. I loved hating Jim Valvano in the 80s, but its just pity now for the Wolfpack. I would love to change that again :D But we've had that conversation a number of times before.

Of course. I was just commenting on the statement that UNC and Duke were so far above everyone else in the ACC over a half-century when it was more State and UNC until 1990. We packed a lot of living between 1954 and 1991. :D

It's actually more accurate (and painful) to say that it's just UNC and then flavor of the decade (State in the 1950s, Duke in the 1960s, State in the 1970s and early 1980s, Duke since then) that is the biggest rivalry. Naturally, there are those ankle biters from Maryland (Lefty years, early 2000s), Virginia (Ralph Sampson years), Wake (early 1960s, Tim Duncan and Chris Paul), and even Georgia Tech (early 1990s), but they've usually been third wheels at best in terms of the biggest basketball rivalries in the ACC (no matter what ESPN tried to do with the Duke-Maryland rivalry earlier this decade).

[Logan]

Wait a minute, somebody actually said that? Shit, that's just silly.

Outside of maybe game two or three of a heated series with some bad blood, I don't think there's five guys in all of pro sports who think like that about any team opponent today (obviously playoff series would be a technical exception since that's who you have to beat).

Yeah, that's a gross idealization of what baseball players likely think. I'm sure the first thing the majority think about is "who is this chick and when will she get the hell out?" But to address Sack's point, I don't see why a Giant/Dodger would be feel more that way than a Yankee.

[jbergey22]

I think most of us will agree that top rivalries will change according to how many games the teams are winning.

Historic rivalries like Army/Navy can hold up no matter how many games them two teams are winning.

The Cowboys/Redskins rivalry of the early to mid 80s was epic in my mind possibly because I was just a kid at that point and them two teams seemed to just despise each other.

[Passacaglia]

I'll go with all the teams I'm a fan of and their rivals also.

[tarcone]

wow 15,000 people? that's unmatched. Anywhere.

In an underexposed sport thats huge. It would mean 400,000 fans would should up for the Yanks/Red Sox. The rivalry is that big.

[Vegas Vic]

Michigan - Ohio State.

Former Ohio State running back Eddie George went to the Red River Shootout with former Sooner DB Roy Williams, and when asked by ABC sideline reporter Jack Arute to compare the rivalries, George said "Ohio State versus Michigan has nothing on this." George said he'd never seen anything like the atmosphere, intensity and electricity in the Cotton Bowl for this game.

[k0ruptr]

BCS Vs. Playoffs

[JonInMiddleGA]

Historic rivalries like Army/Navy can hold up no matter how many games them two teams are winning.

Hmm, I'm not sure I'd say that's true at this point, not from a national standpoint.

I mean, TV ratings had fallen into the low 2's by 2007 (I can't seem find 2008 anywhere) and even if that's up against conference championship games, a true premier national rivalry ought to be putting up better numbers than the 2008 Sun Bowl where Oregon State beat Pitt 3-0 (which did the same rating of 2.2).

With Navy so dominating over the past several years, the game seems to have a lost a lot of its appeal.

[MrDNA]

Are we not bringing up NBA stuff? I could give two figs about basketball, but I immediately thought Lakers/Celtics.

The sports I do care about I am too into my own personal rivalries to be anything near objective. Damn lousy Mets-Steelers-Ravens!

[DaddyTorgo]

Rangers-Celtic
Lazio-Roma
Fenerbahce-Galatasary
and so on and so forth.

None of the rivalries previously names can get you killed if you walk around in the wrong colours. European football rivalries make North American rivalries look like church picnics.

Milan derby?

derby d'Italia?

the Superclasico in Argentina?

Madrid derby?

El Clasico in Spain?

[Wolfpack]

Lakers-Celtics is the biggest in the NBA over its history, but it's been dormant until last year and even then, I don't think it carried the same sort of heft it did in the 1980s. It was very much about nostalgia rather than being a serious clash of rivals. If they had met again this year, then it'd be discussed ad nauseum that the rivalry was back in full swing with the new guys writing their own chapters into the book or some thing like that. It's also going to be very hard to rebuild this sort of rivalry as they only meet twice a year and it's much harder in a larger, more balanced league for them to meet in the finals as frequently as they did in the 1980s.


Heck, any game involving Kobe and Shaq since they split up has garnered more "rivalry" ink than any other matchup in the NBA in recent years.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by SackAttack
So would anybody care to address the radio guy's statement that "The Yankees wake up each morning with one goal in mind - beat the Red Sox"?


Wait a minute, somebody actually said that? Shit, that's just silly.


That's not silly, it's a flat out lie. It is obvious the Yankees haven't given even the slightest thought to beating the Red Sox this season. ;)

[Galaxy]

Am I alone that I just don't feel the heat of rivalries outside of college sports, (maybe hockey where you can express a physical side of the game more than other sports)?