Palin to step down as governor

[JonInMiddleGA]

Can't believe nobody posted this yet

My Way News - Palin resigning as Alaska governor (http://apnews.myway.com//article/20090703/D99763S80.html)

WASILLA, Alaska (AP) - Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin says she will resign from office July 26.

Her spokesman wouldn't say why Palin decided to step down, but the announcement stirred speculation that she would focus on a bid for the 2012 Republican nomination for president.

Spokesman Dave Murrow says Lt. Gov. Sean Parnell will be inaugurated at the governor's picnic in Fairbanks at the end of the month.

[Galaril]

Can't believe nobody posted this yet

My Way News - Palin resigning as Alaska governor (http://apnews.myway.com//article/20090703/D99763S80.html)

WASILLA, Alaska (AP) - Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin says she will resign from office July 26.

Her spokesman wouldn't say why Palin decided to step down, but the announcement stirred speculation that she would focus on a bid for the 2012 Republican nomination for president.

Spokesman Dave Murrow says Lt. Gov. Sean Parnell will be inaugurated at the governor's picnic in Fairbanks at the end of the month.


God, I hope she runs and gets the Rep nom that would give the Dems 4 more years almost for sure even with the crappy economy.

[larrymcg421]

Seems odd the way she did it, though. It was abrupt, and the Lt. Governor didn't seem to know it was about to happen.

[SackAttack]

Speaking of unfortunate headlines, if you look at that page, the top two headlines on the list at the bottom of the page:

Palin resigning as Alaska governor
SC serial killer blamed for 4 deaths in 6 days

[Flasch186]

Welp, if Palin runs for GOP nominee at least we'll be assured another interesting campaign season.

[albionmoonlight]

The geographical reality is that it is freaking hard to do a day job in Alaska and run down to Iowa and New Hampshire for visits and D.C., NYC, and L.A. for fundraisers.

Once you decide to be president, I guess you start working 100% for that sooner rather than later.

[JPhillips]

The resignation speech sure is interesting.

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[Cringer]

I had a problem with that CNN video. It seems like it is playing at 1.5x normal speed.

[Noop]

Hopefully she appears nude for some porno company somewhere.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Anybody else hearing Glenn Beck's name floated as a possible VP running mate?

[SackAttack]

I had a problem with that CNN video. It seems like it is playing at 1.5x normal speed.

From what I've been reading, that's actually how fast she was talking.

[JPhillips]

She's apparently said she's out of politics for good. I doubt that's true, but 2012 seems pretty doubtful now.

[Autumn]

That's a really odd video. On the one hand presumably her "new path" is national politics. But her comments about her son made it sound like she wanted to get out of the public limelight. I mean if she's worried about negative publicity then certainly running for president won't help.

I assume the new "climate in politics" she's going on about is Obama, but why did she say it started in August? I'm probably missing something obvious but I'm not sure what hapepned in August.

[Chief Rum]

She's apparently said she's out of politics for good. I doubt that's true, but 2012 seems pretty doubtful now.

So you're saying she's headed for the Bridge to Nowhere?

[Cringer]

From what I've been reading, that's actually how fast she was talking.

Yes indeed, that must have been what was off about it for me. ;)

[JPhillips]

This begs the question, Is Mitt Romney a warlock?

In roughly a month Huntsman signed on with Obama and is out for 2012, Ensign had an affair an is out for 2012, Sanford had an affair an is out for 2012 and now Palin quits and is out for 2012. Tim Pawlenty better watch his ass, Mitt's out to destroy him.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

My God she is a, great American. I am proud to, share the same soil and air that this amazing woman knows she is privileged to breathe and stand, on. David Letterman and the other leftist waste should, be embarrassed to have such vile hatred for this great woman who we, would all be proud to vote for as the President! A great press conference from a great woman.

[Easy Mac]

My God she is a, great American. I am proud to, share the same soil and air that this amazing woman knows she is privileged to breathe and stand, on. David Letterman and the other leftist waste should, be embarrassed to have such vile hatred for this great woman who we, would all be proud to vote for as the President! A great press conference from a great woman.

you betcha... pew pew pew pew

[Tigercat]

USA USA USA USA USA!

[thesloppy]

This shit would be funny if these folks (and there's plenty on both supposed 'sides') weren't a few small steps away from running this already broken-ass country, and getting closer every day.

[thesloppy]

...of course, I'm talking about: women.

[Schmidty]

This makes me sad. People were brutal to the lady. Too bad she gave them what they wanted.

[Lorena]

Is she serious, grown ups were making fun of Trig? What jerks.

[Tekneek]

How bizarre. She's a weird one.

[DaddyTorgo]

no way she can run after this - the "quitter" thing would get thrown at her so often.

"problems with islamic terrorists? don't vote for sarah palin" (cut to video of her quitting speech)

[Axxon]

I don't get how quitting her job helps her run in 2012. It means she's a quitter. I'd understand her not running for reelection like Pawlenty is but just up and quitting? What would stop her from doing this if she became president? I'd think the democrats could run with that one.

I also think that the press has been brutal to her and her family. I really don't like her politics and would never vote for her but the mudslinging against the Palins has gotten way out of hand. Wouldn't surprise me if it just wasn't worth it to her. She will still write the book and she can always work on Fox. Lot easier than getting shit on all the time.

I'll just say I'm also wondering if there's a skeleton about to come out of her closet. It's the one thing that actually makes sense.

[DaddyTorgo]

I don't get how quitting her job helps her run in 2012. It means she's a quitter. I'd understand her not running for reelection like Pawlenty is but just up and quitting? What would stop her from doing this if she became president? I'd think the democrats could run with that one.

I also think that the press has been brutal to her and her family. I really don't like her politics and would never vote for her but the mudslinging against the Palins has gotten way out of hand. Wouldn't surprise me if it just wasn't worth it to her. She will still write the book and she can always work on Fox. Lot easier than getting shit on all the time.

I'll just say I'm also wondering if there's a skeleton about to come out of her closet. It's the one thing that actually makes sense.

those were almost exactly my 3 thoughts. then again, i think to a large extent they brought a lot of the mudslinging on themselves by trying to use the family as a campaigning tool

[Schmidty]

I don't get how quitting her job helps her run in 2012.

I don't think she will run. I think this is just a case of someone getting sick of all the assholes, and wants to put her family first.

I really hope there isn't a scandal, because of the glee that would bring people.

[Tigercat]

Is she serious, grown ups were making fun of Trig? What jerks.

An Alaskan blogger photoshopped a conservative commentator's face over Trig's body to make fun of the close relationship that Palin and the commentator have.

Of course Palin spins that as mocking her down syndrome baby. The sad part is there are some Palin supporters out there that would hear the story and agree with her.

[Axxon]

those were almost exactly my 3 thoughts. then again, i think to a large extent they brought a lot of the mudslinging on themselves by trying to use the family as a campaigning tool

Well, sorta true. I don't believe she called that shot and I don't think she was ever politically savvy enough to really know the ramifications of this especially considering how much smoke the McCain camp was blowing up her Alaskan ass about how everyone was gonna love her.

Now that she knows what that means, if she's backing out of the limelight then more power to her.

[DaddyTorgo]

Well, sorta true. I don't believe she called that shot and I don't think she was ever politically savvy enough to really know the ramifications of this especially considering how much smoke the McCain camp was blowing up her Alaskan ass about how everyone was gonna love her.

Now that she knows what that means, if she's backing out of the limelight then more power to her.

I agree

[Tigercat]

I don't think she will run. I think this is just a case of someone getting sick of all the assholes, and wants to put her family first.

If that is the way it went, I hope in 16 years she is somewhat thankful for the assholes. She shouldn't be routinely flying thousands of miles away from her special needs baby when she already has 3 children. I would say that for any father or mother.

[Young Drachma]

She'll have a TV show within a year.

[Galaril]

Anybody else hearing Glenn Beck's name floated as a possible VP running mate?

You have got to be kidding? ........Not that she isn't already a joke but that would put her into Dan Quayle territory.

[Tekneek]

I also think that the press has been brutal to her and her family. I really don't like her politics and would never vote for her but the mudslinging against the Palins has gotten way out of hand. Wouldn't surprise me if it just wasn't worth it to her. She will still write the book and she can always work on Fox. Lot easier than getting shit on all the time.

What kind of mudslinging? I may have missed that. All of the coverage that comes to mind was legitimate, so please point me to some of the nonsense so I can be outraged by it as well.

[Axxon]

What kind of mudslinging? I may have missed that. All of the coverage that comes to mind was legitimate, so please point me to some of the nonsense so I can be outraged by it as well.

Hey, sorry man, if you don't get internet in the cave you're living in I can't help you there.

[Tekneek]

Hey, sorry man, if you don't get internet in the cave you're living in I can't help you there.

If you can't point to any of this mudslinging, guess it isn't happening.

[Thomkal]

Sarah Palin's problems lie at the feet of John McCain really. I mean he took a nearly completely unknown governor from a remote physically and politically state to one step away from the presidency of this country if they were elected. And with John McCain's 70+ year old body and mind it was more likely than not that she might have to step in for him from time to time if not permanently.

Yes the press did go over the line with her, but we the American people knew nothing about a potential President of the United States when McCain selected her as his running mate. The media like it or not was the primary way of finding out about her, so in some ways I can't blame them for going overboard. Quite honestly I'm not sure anyone could have dealt well with that level of scrutiny being such an unknown beforehand. Some things she handled well, some things she did not.

[JonInMiddleGA]

You have got to be kidding?

I honestly wasn't sure if it was serious or not, that's why I asked.

I saw it referenced sort of half joking online somewhere earlier today & figured it was more like one of those pie in the sky / run it up the flagpole sort of things until I started to mention it to a friend today ("Guess who I'm hearing might be a running mate for her...") and they answered immediately before I even got the question out of my mouth. Thing is, I know for certain we don't have the same info/surfing patterns, so she picked it up somewhere different than I did, and that's what led me to wonder if this was more widespread a story than I first thought.

[JonInMiddleGA]

While everybody seems to be thinking she's either fed up or going to be scandalized, my first thought was "oh shit, she's pregnant again".

[Matthean]

She came across as a person who was highly ignorant and ill prepared for the job in which she was trying to get elected to. She's the only candidate I know that I was genuinely scared to see get elected. Yes, even worse than Hillary. :lol:
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[Crapshoot]

While everybody seems to be thinking she's either fed up or going to be scandalized, my first thought was "oh shit, she's pregnant again".

Hahah - I think she's running in 2012. She knows her "star" moment is now, and she's going to get beaten like Goldwater, but why not? Mitt Romney dreams of having the kind of support that she does. :D

[RainMaker]

If she is running, I still don't get why she'd resign now. We're a year away from any real campaigning and padding your resume with another year as Governor doesn't seem like a bad thing.

Maybe she has figured that she will never win a national election. She could become a pundit of sorts, write books, give speeches, and make a crapload of money off her name.

[lighthousekeeper]

That speech may have been the longest, most painful single run-on sentence ever. I can't call it a resignation speech b/c I have no clue what she was talking about, though I think it involved basketball and trigonometry.

[Young Drachma]

The only thing she'd be running for in '12 is Class President of her college alumni class. She's more toxic to the GOP than TARP.

[digamma]

There's an interview with Palin in Runners World this month. I read that this morning and thought to myself, "hmm...maybe I have her wrong, and there's something to this really likable side of her." After seeing that video, where I, too, had no idea what she was talking about, I'm back to my original feelings.

And, oh the sports metaphors, "You have to keep your eye on the ball, and beat the full court press, when you hunker down and go with the flow, and then you know when to call an audible and pass the ball and go for the victory."

[Schmidty]

Wow!! What a surprise!!! Everyone piling on Palin!!!

I hope I never hear about her again, because I'm so sick of the japes and snipes at her. Yes, she would have been a bad president. Yes, she wasn't very polished. WE FUCKING GET IT!!

[Schmidty]

Dola.

The more I think about it, the more I kind of equate this to Jimmy Stewart in one of my favorite movies ever - "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington". Sure, she wasn't as perfect and innocent as Stewart's character, but the whole character assassination is very, very similar since she was so inexperienced.

[miked]

Gee golly, can't a gal who is trying to get national fame and fortune get some gosh dern privacy? I mean, geez!

[Schmidty]

Gee golly, can't a gal who is trying to get national fame and fortune get some gosh dern privacy? I mean, geez!

You made my point.

Yeah, she was annoyingly folksy and inexperienced, but what the fuck was she supposed to do? Say "No, I'm in politics, but don't want to be V.P. of the U.S.".

I'm sure I'll get piled on (like this board always does for politically different views), but I just think people in this country are basically assholes. Both sides. But people were particularly brutal to her. So kick her when she's down. Have fun!!

[JPhillips]

How were people more brutal to her than to Obama or McCain or Clinton or Romney? Hell, it's a blood sport and if you can't take it you'll get tossed aside. McCain probably fucked her over by picking her when she wasn't ready, but life ain't fair. She'd have been much better off going back to AK and keeping a low profile for a year or two instead of trying to get her face in the media so often.

[miked]

Uhm, yeah? Maybe you should get laid? Who cares about this bitch, get a sense of humor. I agree with you though, people in this country are assholes.

My point wasn't really her folksy-ness, it was more that the insinuation in this thread that she quit because of negativity about her "family" when in fact she is out seeking more publicity (and hence more scrutiny, since ya know, she wants the highest job in the country). Less dumb people in politics = better.

Her whole recent faux outrage over the blogger superimposing a lobbyist on her kid and twisting it into an attack on special needs children really put the nail in coffin.

[RainMaker]

I don't really think people were tougher on her than they were on anyone else in the election. I remember seeing Obama being called a Muslim terrorist at some of the Republican rallies that had some strong racist overtones. I remember McCain being bashed for his age relentlessly. Edwards was destroyed for being a metrosexual. Huckabee for being a Jesus freak.

I think all the candidates got their share of shit thrown on them. I just think it makes Palin look weak that she can't handle a couple photoshops by a blogger.

[KWhit]

Wow!! What a surprise!!! Everyone piling on Palin!!!

I hope I never hear about her again, because I'm so sick of the japes and snipes at her. Yes, she would have been a bad president. Yes, she wasn't very polished. WE FUCKING GET IT!!

Are you serious? You're acting as if everyone is so mean and hateful because she wasn't prepared to be Vice President (let alone president, if McCain would be incapacitated).

We didn't nominate her. It's not our fault she's incompetent.

[digamma]

You made my point.

Yeah, she was annoyingly folksy and inexperienced, but what the fuck was she supposed to do? Say "No, I'm in politics, but don't want to be V.P. of the U.S.".

I'm sure I'll get piled on (like this board always does for politically different views), but I just think people in this country are basically assholes. Both sides. But people were particularly brutal to her. So kick her when she's down. Have fun!!

By being down, do you mean resigning? If so, didn't she bring this one on herself? She easily could have served out the rest of her term and probably won reelection as governor. Instead, we have what is, by a kind account, a hastily called press conference on a slow news day with an unclear message.

That said, I don't know anything about the Trig stuff. If that's true, that's really, really too bad.

[Atocep]

You made my point.

Yeah, she was annoyingly folksy and inexperienced, but what the fuck was she supposed to do? Say "No, I'm in politics, but don't want to be V.P. of the U.S.".

I'm fairly certain there's been plenty of people that have turned down the offer to be someone's running mate.

I'm sure I'll get piled on (like this board always does for politically different views), but I just think people in this country are basically assholes. Both sides. But people were particularly brutal to her. So kick her when she's down. Have fun!!

People in this country are assholes, but when you take your politics to a national level and throw your family in front of the camera you'd better be really confident in your ability to not look like a complete dumbass.

The only thing that separates what she's gone through and what a lot of others in politics have gone through is she put her family out there as fair game and paid the price. She also wasn't smart enough to go back to Alaska and make sure her name stays out of the public eye for a couple years before resurfacing as a more polished and better informed politician.

[Schmidty]

Are you serious? You're acting as if everyone is so mean and hateful because she wasn't prepared to be Vice President (let alone president, if McCain would be incapacitated).

We didn't nominate her. It's not our fault she's incompetent.

Obviously that's not my point. It's personal attacks, and the glee with which people dog on her that I'm talking about. It's childish. Like I have said a lot - I didn't vote for McCain (or Obama), but it's sickening how fiercely people and the media have jumped on her. That's why I hope she's just done. I'm sick of it.

[Young Drachma]

You made my point.

Yeah, she was annoyingly folksy and inexperienced, but what the fuck was she supposed to do? Say "No, I'm in politics, but don't want to be V.P. of the U.S.".

I'm sure I'll get piled on (like this board always does for politically different views), but I just think people in this country are basically assholes. Both sides. But people were particularly brutal to her. So kick her when she's down. Have fun!!

No one told her to run for public office. It's not always a picnic. Buck up.

[Schmidty]

Uhm, yeah? Maybe you should get laid?

I'm married. That's not happening.

[Schmidty]

No one told her to run for public office. It's not always a picnic. Buck up.

So that makes it ok to abuse people?

[Schmidty]

By the way, the Tigers game has gotten me riled up.

[RainMaker]

So that makes it ok to abuse people?
In a perfect world our candidates would never get scrutinized or "abused". But unfortunately that's how the game is played and she knew it going into it. It's like a celebrity complaining about having his picture taken everywhere he goes.

[Schmidty]

In a perfect world our candidates would never get scrutinized or "abused". But unfortunately that's how the game is played and she knew it going into it. It's like a celebrity complaining about having his picture taken everywhere he goes.

Scrutiny is very important when electing someone. She was, and she wasn't worthy of being VP; however mean-spirited attacks is another thing. Is it the norm? Yes. Is it right? No.

[DaddyTorgo]

Obviously that's not my point. It's personal attacks, and the glee with which people dog on her that I'm talking about. It's childish. Like I have said a lot - I didn't vote for McCain (or Obama), but it's sickening how fiercely people and the media have jumped on her. That's why I hope she's just done. I'm sick of it.

like the personal attacks she made on Obama?

[miked]

I'm married. That's not happening.

I have a 3 month old, she had 2 glasses of wine with dinner, wish me luck :)

[Schmidty]

like the personal attacks she made on Obama?

So that makes it ok to attack her kids? Yeah, maybe she put them out there. But did the kids put themselves out there? No.

Obviously, I'm not going to win this debate, but I just wish people were nicer to each other. Yes, I'm naive.

[Schmidty]

I have a 3 month old, she had 2 glasses of wine with dinner, wish me luck :)

Hopefully she didn't eat much, so the wine will work it's magic better. Good luck!!! :)

[Tekneek]

She drove her train off the rails all by herself. She was a proponent of abstinence, with a pregnant teenage unwed daughter. She proclaimed to be in favor of autism research, then railed against fruit fly research (when fruit fly studies had been helping with autism research). She went into an interview with notorious softball throwing Katie Couric, and was unable to name a single newspaper or magazine that she reads regularly (while claiming that she read newspapers and magazines all the time).

I'm touching the tip of the iceberg with this stuff.

[DaddyTorgo]

She drove her train off the rails all by herself. She was a proponent of abstinence, with a pregnant teenage unwed daughter. She proclaimed to be in favor of autism research, then railed against fruit fly research (when fruit fly studies had been helping with autism research). She went into an interview with notorious softball throwing Katie Couric, and was unable to name a single newspaper or magazine that she reads regularly (while claiming that she read newspapers and magazines all the time).

I'm touching the tip of the iceberg with this stuff.

+1

[Schmidty]

She drove her train off the rails all by herself. She was a proponent of abstinence, with a pregnant teenage unwed daughter. She proclaimed to be in favor of autism research, then railed against fruit fly research (when fruit fly studies had been helping with autism research). She went into an interview with notorious softball throwing Katie Couric, and was unable to name a single newspaper or magazine that she reads regularly (while claiming that she read newspapers and magazines all the time).

I'm touching the tip of the iceberg with this stuff.

Have you not been reading what I've said?????? I get it - She was unqualified and unfit to be VP, but the visceral hatred for her is still wrong. And one other thing - She's a proponent of abstinence, but how is it her fault that her daughter chose to fuck someone and get knocked up? Even good parents can't control the mind of a teen. I think it's unintelligent to call her out on that. She was against fruit fly research, and I have absolutely no idea why, but I guarantee it's not because she doesn't want a cure for autism. And as I said, she's not goo in interviews because she's not fit for office.

It still doesn't excuse the ongoing personal attacks.

I'm done. I don't think I'll make any of you "get it".

[Greyroofoo]

Personally i think she's been ever more scrutinized because she's female.

However I vote 3rd party and thus my opinion doesn't matter.

[larrymcg421]

The funniest bit in all of this was before being nominated as VP, Sarah Palin was criticizing Hilary Clinton for whining about unfair sexist treatment. Things sure do look different from the other side.

[SackAttack]

I don't think she will run. I think this is just a case of someone getting sick of all the assholes, and wants to put her family first.

If she's putting her family first here, rather than making a big political mistake or getting forced out by impending scandal, it would be the first time. Didn't she give some political speech and then spend around 12 hours on a plane to get back to Wasilla when she was pregnant with Trig? And that wasn't even when she was the VP nominee.

I hope this is a family-first thing, but the old walks-like-a-duck-sounds-like-a-duck axiom has me cynical.

I really hope there isn't a scandal, because of the glee that would bring people.

Agreed. But I also wonder about the impact on her family if it turns out there is a scandal.

While everybody seems to be thinking she's either fed up or going to be scandalized, my first thought was "oh shit, she's pregnant again".

The timing of the announcement seems to point more to the second than the first or third. If it's a 'fed up with the assholes' bit, why not do it early in the week or in midweek when you can really take those assholes to task before a larger audience? The day before a national holiday seems like a suspect time to draw your line in the sand.

By the same token, she was pregnant as governor of Alaska once already. Why would another pregnancy cause the resignation? It would imply that remaining governor was largely because of national political aspirations and with another child on the way, she's done with those...but again, why choose the Friday before a national holiday to resign if that's the case? If you no longer aspire to the national stage, it wouldn't seem to be something that needs to be buried.

I keep coming back to, especially with her demeanor at the speech, that there is one big ass shoe about to fall. It's the only thing that makes sense. Quitting to focus on the presidential race, it might help her win the nomination, but with that juicy a target, she would lose the general in tidal wave fashion. Quitting for the other reasons, plausible, but why now?

[Greyroofoo]

So can anyone tell me what Alaska's budget looks like? Is it a trillion dollars in the hole?

[Racer]

I don't get how quitting her job helps her run in 2012. It means she's a quitter. I'd understand her not running for reelection like Pawlenty is but just up and quitting? What would stop her from doing this if she became president? I'd think the democrats could run with that one.

I also think that the press has been brutal to her and her family. I really don't like her politics and would never vote for her but the mudslinging against the Palins has gotten way out of hand. Wouldn't surprise me if it just wasn't worth it to her. She will still write the book and she can always work on Fox. Lot easier than getting shit on all the time.

I'll just say I'm also wondering if there's a skeleton about to come out of her closet. It's the one thing that actually makes sense.

Totally agree with you on your first and third points. I don't think the press has treated her unfairly though. The press would have ripped any other VP candidate that made the same mistakes as her on the national stage.

[Greyroofoo]

The treatment of Palin makes me think that Fox News is Fair and Balanced

[JonInMiddleGA]

The timing of the announcement seems to point more to the second than the first or third. If it's a 'fed up with the assholes' bit, why not do it early in the week or in midweek when you can really take those assholes to task before a larger audience? The day before a national holiday seems like a suspect time to draw your line in the sand.

Eh, sometimes when you're just over it, you're just over it. If she's pulling out of running for office & it isn't scandal related, maybe she's just fed the hell up with it & doesn't even want to waste the energy getting in some parting shots.

Why would another pregnancy cause the resignation?

I imagine there's a woman or two who would say "only a man would say something like that" ;) Seriously though, I didn't say there was any rhyme or reason to that thought crossing my mind. I just said that was the very first thing that popped into my head. So please don't overthink it, it was nothing more than my gut reaction when I saw the news.

Quitting to focus on the presidential race, it might help her win the nomination, but with that juicy a target, she would lose the general in tidal wave fashion.

I really don't see it playing out that way. Nobody who was going to vote for her is going to put much stock in the criticisms from the left and nobody that went with the criticism was going to vote for her anyway. I believe voters in 49 states would look at it, viewed with what, two years worth of distance & subsconsciously (or not so subconsciously) figure "it's just Alaska, I can't say that I blame her". And I don't want any crap from our Alaskan contingent about that, the same would be said for probably 30+ states. Given my hypothetical druthers, if she were planning to run I'd rather she spend every waking minute focused on that effort instead of splitting time on that & Alaskan politics.

Quitting for the other reasons, plausible, but why now?

Maybe she just wanted to be able to enjoy the holiday weekend. And yes, I'm serious (at least about that being a maybe). Sometimes an orange is just an orange & a pencil is just a pencil, y'know?

[SackAttack]

So can anyone tell me what Alaska's budget looks like? Is it a trillion dollars in the hole?

Palin's Budget Shows Hit to Alaska From Falling Oil Prices - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122938546239808805.html)

$400 million deficit, but almost $7 billion in state savings. Alaska will be fine fiscally, as long as nobody does anything really stupid.

[SackAttack]

Eh, sometimes when you're just over it, you're just over it. If she's pulling out of running for office & it isn't scandal related, maybe she's just fed the hell up with it & doesn't even want to waste the energy getting in some parting shots.

She hasn't struck me as that "type" up until now. Can't imagine why things would change.

I imagine there's a woman or two who would say "only a man would say something like that" ;) Seriously though, I didn't say there was any rhyme or reason to that thought crossing my mind. I just said that was the very first thing that popped into my head. So please don't overthink it, it was nothing more than my gut reaction when I saw the news.

I know it. Just saying, she's had how many kids already? Why would *this* be the one to make her quit politics? You could be right, I'm just saying it doesn't make sense to me. :)

I really don't see it playing out that way. Nobody who was going to vote for her is going to put much stock in the criticisms from the left and nobody that went with the criticism was going to vote for her anyway.

Among the hard-liners on both sides, you're absolutely right. The Republican and Democratic bases were never going to be swayed one way or the other. But then, the Republican base was never going to be able to elect Sarah Palin without some serious crossover from moderates/independents/conservative Democrats. Those are the people that argument would hold sway with.

Someone who carried a 'We <3 Sarah' sign at a rally? Not so much.

I believe voters in 49 states would look at it, viewed with what, two years worth of distance & subsconsciously (or not so subconsciously) figure "it's just Alaska, I can't say that I blame her". And I don't want any crap from our Alaskan contingent about that, the same would be said for probably 30+ states. Given my hypothetical druthers, if she were planning to run I'd rather she spend every waking minute focused on that effort instead of splitting time on that & Alaskan politics.

Perhaps. But her term was up in 2010 anyway, wasn't it? That's plenty of time to gear up for a run if she stays in the press otherwise, and given her reception by the base, is it reasonable to think she would have faded? This just feels like way too early to drop everything to focus on a presidential bid.

Maybe she just wanted to be able to enjoy the holiday weekend. And yes, I'm serious (at least about that being a maybe). Sometimes an orange is just an orange & a pencil is just a pencil, y'know?

Quit on Friday instead of Wednesday to be able to enjoy the holiday weekend? Hell, if THAT'S my motivation, I'm quitting on Tuesday so I can take a week off. :D

[JonInMiddleGA]

AJC political blogger (http://blogs.ajc.com/political-insider-jim-galloway/2009/07/03/nbc-sarah-palin-says-shes-out-of-politics-for-good/) reporting that NBC's Andrea Mitchell says she's been told Palin told backers they're free to find another candidate for 2012, that she's finished with politics for good.

Meanwhile, a blog responder claims that that federal embezzlement indictments against her & her husband are close to being handed down, "related to the building of Palin’s house and the Wasilla Sports Complex built during her tenure as Mayor. Both structures, it is said, feature the “same windows, same wood, same products." He quoted something called bradblog.com FWIW (never heard of it, no clue whether that's good info, bad info, or just outright silly info)

[Greyroofoo]

I only ask because I have no faith in current politicians sticking to a budget and I'll only vote for a politician who'll actually try to reduce the deficit.

A suicide course I know.

[JonInMiddleGA]

But then, the Republican base was never going to be able to elect Sarah Palin without some serious crossover from moderates/independents/conservative Democrats.

I disagree. What had to happen in theory was for people simply not to vote against her, as the "new president smell" wears off Obama & disenchanted voters stay home. She had her crowd locked in, the question would be how much of his could he retain.

As I've said here previously, I really don't recall another national level politician in my lifetime (remember, I was born a few years after JFK's death) who had as strong a hold on their supporters that I encounter as she does. Not Reagan, not anybody. Or at least I don't recall ever hearing people actually sigh in awe at the mere mention of a candidate's name, but I've run into that several times with Palin since she emerged. It's one of the damnedest things I've seen in 42 years.

Remember too, I'm on the record as saying if she had a southern accent she'd be called white trash, so I'm definitely not saying that from a Kool-Aid perspective, I'm still trying to figure out the part of the appeal myself. Some of it I get, but not to the degree I've seen.

Is that purely anecdotal? Of course it is & I know the risks involved with reading too much into an absurdly small sample size but it's hard (nee impossible) for me to believe that I've run into the only people on earth who have that reaction. I'd guess that at least a quarter of the GOP base would vote for her in a primary no matter what happens.

[DaddyTorgo]

AJC political blogger (http://blogs.ajc.com/political-insider-jim-galloway/2009/07/03/nbc-sarah-palin-says-shes-out-of-politics-for-good/) reporting that NBC's Andrea Mitchell says she's been told Palin told backers they're free to find another candidate for 2012, that she's finished with politics for good.

Meanwhile, a blog responder claims that that federal embezzlement indictments against her & her husband are close to being handed down, "related to the building of Palin’s house and the Wasilla Sports Complex built during her tenure as Mayor. Both structures, it is said, feature the “same windows, same wood, same products." He quoted something called bradblog.com FWIW (never heard of it, no clue whether that's good info, bad info, or just outright silly info)

aaaaah

[Greyroofoo]

I will only vote for a governor that has controlled the state budget. Someone who know state fiscal responsibility.

[Schmidty]

AJC political blogger (http://blogs.ajc.com/political-insider-jim-galloway/2009/07/03/nbc-sarah-palin-says-shes-out-of-politics-for-good/) reporting that NBC's Andrea Mitchell says she's been told Palin told backers they're free to find another candidate for 2012, that she's finished with politics for good.

Meanwhile, a blog responder claims that that federal embezzlement indictments against her & her husband are close to being handed down, "related to the building of Palin’s house and the Wasilla Sports Complex built during her tenure as Mayor. Both structures, it is said, feature the “same windows, same wood, same products." He quoted something called bradblog.com FWIW (never heard of it, no clue whether that's good info, bad info, or just outright silly info)

If something like that is true, I retract my arguments (other than against the kids).

[Flasch186]

I'm married. That's not happening.

LOL

[Greyroofoo]

LOL

how's your state budget?

[Schmidty]

how's your state budget?

I don't get it.

[Crapshoot]

I disagree. What had to happen in theory was for people simply not to vote against her, as the "new president smell" wears off Obama & disenchanted voters stay home. She had her crowd locked in, the question would be how much of his could he retain.

As I've said here previously, I really don't recall another national level politician in my lifetime (remember, I was born a few years after JFK's death) who had as strong a hold on their supporters that I encounter as she does. Not Reagan, not anybody. Or at least I don't recall ever hearing people actually sigh in awe at the mere mention of a candidate's name, but I've run into that several times with Palin since she emerged. It's one of the damnedest things I've seen in 42 years.

Remember too, I'm on the record as saying if she had a southern accent she'd be called white trash, so I'm definitely not saying that from a Kool-Aid perspective, I'm still trying to figure out the part of the appeal myself. Some of it I get, but not to the degree I've seen.

Is that purely anecdotal? Of course it is & I know the risks involved with reading too much into an absurdly small sample size but it's hard (nee impossible) for me to believe that I've run into the only people on earth who have that reaction. I'd guess that at least a quarter of the GOP base would vote for her in a primary no matter what happens.

Its funny; I thought the best analogy I heard to her was Jesse Jackson - a die hard base of support (no question here - I read Redstate etc, and its hilarious as to how cult like some of the following is), but very very little ability to expand beyond that.

Michael Barone's article here: http://www.american.com/archive/2009/june/the-gops-real-problems-for-2012

[Greyroofoo]

I don't get it.

I'm just saying I want someone who knows something about fiscal responsibility.

[SirFozzie]

no offense to the folks at bradblog who are reporting, but to be quite honest, I wouldn't put any faith in a site that proclaims "WSJ Whackos in Denial over Franken Election" to be A) factural, B) Neutral.

[RainMaker]

I don't know if any of that blog stuff is true. I will say the resigning is extremely odd. She had been doing a lot of interviews over the past few months and was clearly trying to brand herself nationally. She had her daughter doing national TV interviews and she was starting feuds with Letterman and others. That's not the way someone who is "sick of attacks" and doesn't want the exposure for her and her family acts. She seemed like someone who was trying to keep her name in the news and position herself to be a leader in the Republican Party.

The resignation helps her in no way for 2012. It leaves her out of public office for many years which is not a good thing when you don't have decades of experience in public office. If her aspirations were for 2012, you'd think she'd turn Alaska into a model state and use that as her example of how she'd turn things around in the U.S.

The whole thing seems eerily odd is all I'm saying. The press conference seemed rather abrupt and not thought out. The fact she didn't tell others in the state makes me think that this was a sudden maneuver too. If there turns out to be a scandal of sorts as some have mentioned, I wouldn't be surprised (nothing against her but something just doesn't add up). I think I'd be more surprised to find out she just wants to live a quiet family life away from the public eye.

[Tigercat]

Personally i think she's been ever more scrutinized because she's female.

However I vote 3rd party and thus my opinion doesn't matter.

That's overplayed. If Dan Quayle had a pregnant 17 year old in the late 80s - early 90s, Dan and the whole Quayle family would have gotten the same exact treatment. As it was Quayle got just as much, if not more, jokes on his stupidity than Palin.

[wade moore]

I will only vote for a governor that has controlled the state budget. Someone who know state fiscal responsibility.

Former VA Governor Mark Warner...

[miked]

I have a 3 month old, she had 2 glasses of wine with dinner, wish me luck :)

Winnar!! The key is the hydrating goodness of wine.

[King of New York]

Former VA Governor Mark Warner...

+1

I'm still hoping that he'll run for president at some point.

As for Sarah Palin, a lot of these theories seem equally plausible. I can well believe that she just decided that being governor was too demanding. Didn't she attend four different colleges before getting her degree? Sticking with a program is not her style--her ambition and supposed ruthlessness seem not to be matched by an equally strong work ethic or ability to focus.

That having been said, I would not be at all surprised to learn that there is some sort of financial or personal scandal that the public knows nothing about yet. Maybe she's one of the "other women" that Mark Sanford crossed the line with :D

[Axxon]

If you can't point to any of this mudslinging, guess it isn't happening.

You gotta be kidding me right? I can't point to the wind. Guess that isn't happening either. All I can say is that others have agreed with me. You don't. Tells me alot about you.

[Axxon]

There's an interview with Palin in Runners World this month. I read that this morning and thought to myself, "hmm...maybe I have her wrong, and there's something to this really likable side of her." After seeing that video, where I, too, had no idea what she was talking about, I'm back to my original feelings.

And, oh the sports metaphors, "You have to keep your eye on the ball, and beat the full court press, when you hunker down and go with the flow, and then you know when to call an audible and pass the ball and go for the victory."

Big deal, she played basketball. Did you give Jack Kemp shit when he pulled out his baseball metaphors? Bill Bradley his basketball metaphors? Any politician and his goofball metaphors?

I mean, for character assassination there's enough material out there not to have to nit pick.

[Axxon]

While everybody seems to be thinking she's either fed up or going to be scandalized, my first thought was "oh shit, she's pregnant again".

Does she name this one Calculus?

[Axxon]

You made my point.

Yeah, she was annoyingly folksy and inexperienced, but what the fuck was she supposed to do? Say "No, I'm in politics, but don't want to be V.P. of the U.S.". Actually, it wouldn't be the first time that's happened and it would have been the responsible choice. One of the first signs of a true leader is knowing when to lead and when to learn.


I'm sure I'll get piled on (like this board always does for politically different views), but I just think people in this country are basically assholes. Both sides. But people were particularly brutal to her. So kick her when she's down. Have fun!!

That's what pisses me off. All the assholes are supposed to be on your side of the political aisle. ;-)

Shit, looks like I may have to join a third party.

[Axxon]

How were people more brutal to her than to Obama or McCain or Clinton or Romney? Hell, it's a blood sport and if you can't take it you'll get tossed aside. McCain probably fucked her over by picking her when she wasn't ready, but life ain't fair. She'd have been much better off going back to AK and keeping a low profile for a year or two instead of trying to get her face in the media so often.

Take out Clinton because I agree. I don't believe McCain or Romney or Obama's kids were cracked on this badly or even at all. They are supposed to be off limits. They weren't with her.

[Tekneek]

She's a proponent of abstinence, but how is it her fault that her daughter chose to fuck someone and get knocked up?

It isn't her fault. It just demonstrates how her philosophy is not the answer. Her own daughter has said that abstinence is unrealistic. In other words, she should stop wasting people's time claiming that is a solution.

She was against fruit fly research, and I have absolutely no idea why, but I guarantee it's not because she doesn't want a cure for autism.

It is one thing to want a cure for autism, and it is another thing to be so ignorant about the science that you can't tell what research helps and what does not. She appears to live in a world that doesn't care about facts.

It still doesn't excuse the ongoing personal attacks.

What personal attacks? Being made fun of by comedians?

I'm done. I don't think I'll make any of you "get it".

Ok.

[Axxon]

I'm fairly certain there's been plenty of people that have turned down the offer to be someone's running mate.



People in this country are assholes, but when you take your politics to a national level and throw your family in front of the camera you'd better be really confident in your ability to not look like a complete dumbass.

The only thing that separates what she's gone through and what a lot of others in politics have gone through is she put her family out there as fair game and paid the price. She also wasn't smart enough to go back to Alaska and make sure her name stays out of the public eye for a couple years before resurfacing as a more polished and better informed politician.

Give me a break. Every politician puts his kids out there when they campaign. The difference is that her kids weren't following her politics but hmm, I don't recall Cheney's or Reagen's homosexual children getting this kind of abuse especially as kids. I don't recall the sluttish alcoholic Bush girls getting this kind of abuse. Now we crack on handicapped kids.

It's hypocrisy at it's highest and 100% unnecessary at this point in time. It's assholish to the extreme and again, an indicator of the tone of the party which pretty much reminds me how assholish the Republicans got when they got a majority that was supposedly permanent.

[Axxon]

It isn't her fault. It just demonstrates how her philosophy is not the answer. Her own daughter has said that abstinence is unrealistic. In other words, she should stop wasting people's time claiming that is a solution. [quote]

I think I know why you don't realize what's going on.

[quote]Bristol Palin, daughter of Alaska Governor Sarah Palin, went on "Good Morning America" to launch her new pastime as an ambassador for abstinence.

Anchor Christopher Cuomo pointed out that Palin's own personal history went against her abstinence-only message for teens. (Palin, 18, recently had a baby with former boyfriend Levi Johnston.) She became pregnant after she and Levi failed to use protection (something Johnston admitted on the "Tyra" show.)

Palin was less forthcoming on this issue than her ex. "Regardless of what I did personally, I just think that abstinence is the only way you can effectively, 100% foolproof way you can prevent pregnancy," she responded. Asked how she squared her own experiences with her new campaign, she added, "I'm not quite sure, I just want to go out there and promote abstinence and say, this is the safest choice. This is the choice that's going to prevent teen pregnancy and prevent a lot of heartache."

Palin did say that if she could do it over, "I would have waited, waited to have sex." Later she added, "I think using this experience in my life to help others, I think it's a blessing. ... I'm relatable, I am a teen myself. I'm saying that there's one way to prevent it, and that's not having sex."

Of course, Palin made headlines in February when she declared that abstinence is "not realistic at all." Now she says the quote was "taken out of context. ... I do think it's realistic. It's the harder choice, but it's the safest choice."

A major study published last year found that premarital abstinence pledges among teens were ineffective and often counterproductive -- teens were just as likely to have sex but less likely to use condoms or other forms of birth control.

In a subsequent interview on CBS's Early Show, Levi Johnston called Bristol Palin's abstinence message a "great idea" but "not realistic." Watch video here.

hxxp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/06/bristol-palin-says-abstin_n_197597.html


It is one thing to want a cure for autism, and it is another thing to be so ignorant about the science that you can't tell what research helps and what does not. She appears to live in a world that doesn't care about facts.

So abstinence is against science? I never knew that. Better not tell Isaac Newton. Dude invented a lot of shit. I guess he had no handle on science.


Was Isaac Newton a virgin?
June 21, 1996

Dear Cecil:

Is it true that Isaac Newton was a virgin?

— Hoping there are other ways to assure scientific greatness, Douglas Leonard, Department of Astronomy, UC Berkeley



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Dear Douglas:

Of course he was a virgin. Once upon a time, so was Madonna. What's tragic is that he may have died a virgin. Not that this is all that unusual. You met many electrical engineers? But mathematicians are probably the worst that way. How the math gene perpetuates itself is one of the mysteries of our age.

Admittedly this is an area where it is unwise to make blanket statements. (Sorry.) It's not like they had the guy under constant surveillance. As one of my high school classmates unwisely asked at the lunch table one day, "What, technically, is the definition of a virgin?"

Still, having thus fenced out the boundaries of the knowable, we can say that, with the possible exception of one teenage friendship (there is no sign that it became physical), Isaac Newton apparently formed no romantic attachments during his 84 years of life. Furthermore, he was so straitlaced it seems unlikely he availed himself of, how shall I say, commercial outlets.

The penalty of genius, you are thinking. Not necessarily. Richard Feynman, one of the legendary minds of our time, was quite the bon vivant, and . . . well, I dare not even speak of myself.

Newton, in contrast, was walking proof that one path to immortality, assuming you have the requisite endowment of brains, is to obsess. Ninety percent of what he obsessed about--alchemy, biblical prophecy, and religious disputations were among his lifelong passions--was rubbish. The other ten percent, the stuff he did for laughs, I suppose we might say, took six thousand years of disjointed fumbling and made it into a science. Two sciences, actually, physics and to a large extent mathematics.

Too bad Newton didn't have the benefit of modern management consultants. "Ike," they would say, "if you chucked the alchemy and prophecy thing you could produce all the scientific achievements that will earn you glory and still leave most of the day for wine, women, and song."

Didn't happen, but let's have some respect. One biographer credits him with "discovering gravitation," and where would we be without that?

— Cecil Adams

hxxp://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/957/was-isaac-newton-a-virgin

That unscientific bastard.

[Tekneek]

Take out Clinton because I agree. I don't believe McCain or Romney or Obama's kids were cracked on this badly or even at all. They are supposed to be off limits. They weren't with her.

If any of your political views are immediately refuted by something that is happening within your own family, pointing that out is fair. I'm not sure what else was attacked by legitimate media, but I am willing to read about it/look into it if you want to show it to me.

This quote from Todd Purdum sums up Sarah Palin and who she appeals to...

"Palin has shown herself to have remarkable gut instincts about raw politics, and she has seen openings where others did not,” writes Purdum. “And she has the good fortune to have traction within a political party that is bereft of strong leadership, and whose rank and file often demands qualities other than knowledge, experience, and an understanding that facts are, as John Adams said, stubborn things.”

[larrymcg421]

Give me a break. Every politician puts his kids out there when they campaign. The difference is that her kids weren't following her politics but hmm, I don't recall Cheney's or Reagen's homosexual children getting this kind of abuse especially as kids. I don't recall the sluttish alcoholic Bush girls getting this kind of abuse. Now we crack on handicapped kids.

What the hell are you talking about? Who cracked on her handicapped kid? Palin mentioned that in her speech, but I've never heard it, not from Democrats, Late Night comedians, or anyone.

And if you don't think the the late night comedians cracked about the Bush twins, you must have not been watching late night TV during that period.

And I don't know why you lumped in homosexual children in with "sluttish, alcoholic" behavior as if somehow that was equivalent, but the only people to attack Cheney's daughter were Republicans, such as Alan Keyes.

It's hypocrisy at it's highest and 100% unnecessary at this point in time. It's assholish to the extreme and again, an indicator of the tone of the party which pretty much reminds me how assholish the Republicans got when they got a majority that was supposedly permanent.

So late night comedians = the party?

[Tekneek]

So abstinence is against science? I never knew that. Better not tell Isaac Newton. Dude invented a lot of shit. I guess he had no handle on science.

Did you bump your head on something? The part about autism was separate from the part about abstinence. Since it wasn't clear enough for you the first time, now you know.

The facts out there easily demonstrate that people, of all ages, need to know about more ways to prevent pregnancy than abstinence. Abstinence would be just one of many tools in that area, not the single answer.

[Axxon]

If any of your political views are immediately refuted by something that is happening within your own family, pointing that out is fair. I'm not sure what else was attacked by legitimate media, but I am willing to read about it/look into it if you want to show it to me.

Found this quickly. NBC is a legitimate media outlet right?




WND Exclusive MEDIA MATTERS
NBC jokes: Todd Palin has sex with daughters
'Saturday Night Live' skit suggests Sarah's husband guilty of incest
Posted: September 21, 2008
2:18 am Eastern

By Joe Kovacs
© 2009 WorldNetDaily


Alaska Gov, Sarah Palin and family in 2007

A week after a high-profile send-up of Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin on "Saturday Night Live," the NBC comedy show returned to making fun of the Alaskan governor in a skit where New York Times reporters sought to probe the possibility Palin's husband, Todd, was having sex with the couple's own daughters.

"What about the husband?" asked a Times reporter during a mock assignment meeting for the paper. "You know he's doing those daughters. I mean, come on. It's Alaska."

The assignment editor for the Times, portrayed by actor James Franco, responded: "He very well could be. Admittedly, there is no evidence of that, but on the other hand, there is no convincing evidence to the contrary. And these are just some of the lingering questions about Governor Palin."

(Story continues below)



The skit featured a photo of one reporter and an on-screen message that stated, "In 2009 [reporter] Howland Gwathmey Moss, V was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for his Times series on unproven, yet un-disproven incest in the Palin family. Sadly, he was to die 3 months later, run over by a snow machine, driven by a polar bear."

Think this is fair?



This quote from Todd Purdum sums up Sarah Palin and who she appeals to...

"Palin has shown herself to have remarkable gut instincts about raw politics, and she has seen openings where others did not,” writes Purdum. “And she has the good fortune to have traction within a political party that is bereft of strong leadership, and whose rank and file often demands qualities other than knowledge, experience, and an understanding that facts are, as John Adams said, stubborn things.”

I agree with this and I'm not a Palin supporter but wrong is wrong and I've noticed attacks like Letterman and the joke above that are beyond the pale.

[Axxon]

Did you bump your head on something? The part about autism was separate from the part about abstinence. Since it wasn't clear enough for you the first time, now you know.

The facts out there easily demonstrate that people, of all ages, need to know about more ways to prevent pregnancy than abstinence. Abstinence would be just one of many tools in that area, not the single answer.

Fair enough. I did misread what you said. I was wrong. You still haven't pointed out that you wrong by saying Bristol thought abstinence was unrealistic instead of Levi.

[Tekneek]

NBC may be legitimate media, but SNL is a comedy show. If your claim that the media is after her family is based on comedians, you've got a very weak point.

[Tekneek]

Fair enough. I did misread what you said. I was wrong. You still haven't pointed out that you wrong by saying Bristol thought abstinence was unrealistic instead of Levi.

I will admit this. I did not record the video interview where I watched and heard her say it. That's as far as I am going on that one. Of course, it doesn't matter much what she says. Her actions speak much more loudly.

[Axxon]

What the hell are you talking about? Who cracked on her handicapped kid? Palin mentioned that in her speech, but I've never heard it, not from Democrats, Late Night comedians, or anyone.

And if you don't think the the late night comedians cracked about the Bush twins, you must have not been watching late night TV during that period.

And I don't know why you lumped in homosexual children in with "sluttish, alcoholic" behavior as if somehow that was equivalent, but the only people to attack Cheney's daughter were Republicans, such as Alan Keyes.

Give me a break. I'm not lumping them together as anything except what people like to attack. No judgement involved. I have nothing against hot sluts and/or homosexuals but I don't live under a rock and realize, as you pointed out, that these behaviors get attacked. Period. Read into it how you like.


So late night comedians = the party?

I'd say yes, just like the democrats have said that Rush Limbaugh is the leader of the republican party. Again, can't have it both ways here.

[larrymcg421]

Actually, the whole point of the SNL skit was to make fun of the media's overly negative coverage of Palin and her family, not Sarah Palin herself.

[Axxon]

NBC may be legitimate media, but SNL is a comedy show. If your claim that the media is after her is based on comedians, you've got a very weak point.

Then no more Rush Limbaugh jokes right? I mean, as he's said, he's just an entertainer.

[Axxon]

I will admit this. I did not record the video interview where I watched and heard her say it. That's as far as I am going on that one. Of course, it doesn't matter much what she says. Her actions speak much more loudly.

So you admit you can't prove it but you're still really right. Great admission there hotshot.

[Axxon]

Actually, the whole point of the SNL skit was to make fun of the media's overly negative coverage of Palin and her family, not Sarah Palin herself.

This christmas I'll get you a loom. Surely it will help with your spinning.

[larrymcg421]

I'd say yes, just like the democrats have said that Rush Limbaugh is the leader of the republican party. Again, can't have it both ways here.

Let me know when the DNC Chairman and several elected Democrats defer to Letterman or Conan and apologize for criticizing them.

[Tekneek]

Then no more Rush Limbaugh jokes right? I mean, as he's said, he's just an entertainer.

I don't think I've ranted about Rush Limbaugh. At least, I don't remember doing it. He's just a radio guy. I see no reason to care about what he thinks or does. If he tries to state something as fact, when it is not, then at least understanding that he is wrong could be important knowledge for everyone to have. Calling him evil because he is a radio guy who has to fill a few hours everyday with something people are willing to listen to would be a bit of a leap. People obviously do not tune in, day after day, to listen to 3 hours full of nothing but facts. They find that boring.

[Tekneek]

So you admit you can't prove it but you're still really right. Great admission there hotshot.

Just as good as your claims up to this point, I figure.

[larrymcg421]

This christmas I'll get you a loom. Surely it will help with your spinning.

That was the point of the skit. You can put blinders on and pretend that SNL was actually calling Todd Palin a pedophile, but that's not what happened.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

I have a 3 month old, she had 2 glasses of wine with dinner, wish me luck :)

Does it really take 2 glasses of wine to quiet a 3 month old? My kid is 16, so it's been a while...

[Axxon]

"According to expense reports, Sarah Palin charged the state of Alaska over $21,000 for her children to travel with her on official business. In fairness to Governor Palin, when she leaves them home alone, they get pregnant." --Seth Meyers

"Speaking of Sarah Palin, she said she's a life-long member of the National Rifle Association. Which may explain why she's in favor of shotgun weddings." --Conan O'Brien


"You know who is really, really happy that John McCain did not win last night? The boyfriend of Sarah Palin's daughter. He doesn't have to get married now. 'Whew, thank God!'" --Jay Leno


"A lot of speculation about Sarah Palin's future, but last night, she denied rumors that she's getting ready to run for president in 2012. Palin said, 'That's a long time away. I'll be a great-grandmother by then.'" --Conan O'Brien

[Axxon]

Let me know when the DNC Chairman and several elected Democrats defer to Letterman or Conan and apologize for criticizing them.

Until then, you'll remain a hypocrite. I get that.

[Axxon]

I don't think I've ranted about Rush Limbaugh. At least, I don't remember doing it. He's just a radio guy. I see no reason to care about what he thinks or does. If he tries to state something as fact, when it is not, then at least understanding that he is wrong could be important knowledge for everyone to have. Calling him evil because he is a radio guy who has to fill a few hours everyday with something people are willing to listen to would be a bit of a leap. People obviously do not tune in, day after day, to listen to 3 hours full of nothing but facts. They find that boring.

Calling him evil?

[larrymcg421]

"According to expense reports, Sarah Palin charged the state of Alaska over $21,000 for her children to travel with her on official business. In fairness to Governor Palin, when she leaves them home alone, they get pregnant." --Seth Meyers

"Speaking of Sarah Palin, she said she's a life-long member of the National Rifle Association. Which may explain why she's in favor of shotgun weddings." --Conan O'Brien


"You know who is really, really happy that John McCain did not win last night? The boyfriend of Sarah Palin's daughter. He doesn't have to get married now. 'Whew, thank God!'" --Jay Leno


"A lot of speculation about Sarah Palin's future, but last night, she denied rumors that she's getting ready to run for president in 2012. Palin said, 'That's a long time away. I'll be a great-grandmother by then.'" --Conan O'Brien

Thanks for demonstrating two things:

1) Leno sucks

2) More than just Letterman made these jokes, but Palin oddly focused only on him.

[Axxon]

[QUOTE=larrymcg421;2064227]That was the point of the skit. You can put blinders on and pretend that SNL was actually calling Todd Palin a pedophile, but that's not what happened.[/QUOTE

And you can wear blinders and think that if there weren't jokes about young Palin's sexuality that they'd have ever made that joke.

But come on here, we're talking character assassination not fact finding. No one of any party telling jokes about other parties have been actually accusing them of the action. They're all just telling jokes. You can't seriously believe otherwise. Geez.

[Axxon]

Just as good as your claims up to this point, I figure.

Oh noes!!!! He went for the I know I am but so are you joke. I'm doomed. Doomed I tell you.

SIGH.

[Axxon]

Thanks for demonstrating two things:

1) Leno sucks

2) More than just Letterman made these jokes, but Palin oddly focused only on him.

Which are two distinct facts that I don't agree with you on at all but of course are not part of this discussion.

[Tekneek]

Calling him evil?

Yeah, some people try to work that angle. In general, I don't care too much what entertainers think of anything.

[JonInMiddleGA]

More than just Letterman made these jokes, but Palin oddly focused only on him.

Other than SNL did someone else (even accidentally) imply that her 14 year old was sleeping with a grown man?

The ballplayer ought to have raised hell about Letterman, probably even more than anybody in Palin's camp.

[Axxon]

Yeah, some people try to work that angle. In general, I don't care too much what entertainers think of anything.

Personally I don't either but I do think that they influence a lot of people who don't have as much time as I do to surf the web all day and get several different opinions and versions of the news to realize that the truth doesn't necessarily spring from their mouths, especially the pseudo news guys like limbaugh, the daily show ect. I didn't like it when Limbaugh did it I'll be damned if I'll like when the left does it. I'll like it less, I'm on their side.

[Tekneek]

Oh noes!!!! He went for the I know I am but so are you joke. I'm doomed. Doomed I tell you.

SIGH.

Axxon, if it will make you feel better, I will admit that she was an easy target for comedians and they really went for it. It's important to note that most of them probably didn't even know who she was until she accepted the VP slot for the GOP ticket, which means she thrust herself into that scene. It isn't her fault, but she could have stayed in Alaska and never been forced to deal with it. Do we now add "hopelessly naive" to her list of traits?

[Axxon]

Other than SNL did someone else (even accidentally) imply that her 14 year old was sleeping with a grown man?

The ballplayer ought to have raised hell about Letterman, probably even more than anybody in Palin's camp.

Unless the ballplayer was Luis Polonia of course.

[Axxon]

Axxon, if it will make you feel better, I will admit that she was an easy target for comedians and they really went for it. It's important to note that most of them probably didn't even know who she was until she accepted the VP slot for the GOP ticket, which means she thrust herself into that scene. It isn't her fault, but she could have stayed in Alaska and never been forced to deal with it. Do we now add "hopelessly naive" to her list of traits?

I agree with all of this. This all started because I thought she may have possibly decided to remove herself from public life to spare herself and her family more of this. Are you willing to concede that? No problem if you aren't. We can agree to disagree on it. It's not that important. :)

[larrymcg421]

Until then, you'll remain a hypocrite. I get that.

Rush Limbaugh is called the leader of the Republican party because Republican party leaders have actually apologized for criticizing them after getting flooded with tons of hate mail from Limbaugh followers. Nothing like that has happened with the late night hosts and you know it. If you just want to ignore those facts so you can make your argument, that's perfectly fine, but it makes you look like a dumbass when you call someone a hypocrite after they noted the clear differences between the two situations.

[JonInMiddleGA]

So at what point do some of you figure out the obvious?

Namely, that the old joke about "50,000 X at the bottom of the sea = a good start" isn't really meant to be all that funny? Or that if you're being charged by Opposition Politician X, Osama bin Laden, and an angry rhino but you only have two bullets, the correct response is to shoot Opp Pol X twice. We aren't really kidding when we say that you know.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Unless the ballplayer was Luis Polonia of course.

Indeed. In that instance all bets are off.

[Axxon]

Dola, I 100% believe she was hopelessly naive ( maybe hopefully is a better word since I think that's the constituency she was selected to appeal to and she did ) but I don't think she'd have been chosen if she wasn't.

[digamma]

Big deal, she played basketball. Did you give Jack Kemp shit when he pulled out his baseball metaphors? Bill Bradley his basketball metaphors? Any politician and his goofball metaphors?

I mean, for character assassination there's enough material out there not to have to nit pick.

I didn't say anything about her character. I was making fun of her speech, which was terrible. I don't mind a good sports metaphor. I use them all the time. I was making fun of the fact that she botched the one she used, and then threw in several other cliches/metaphors along the way.

[Axxon]

Rush Limbaugh is called the leader of the Republican party because Republican party leaders have actually apologized for criticizing them after getting flooded with tons of hate mail from Limbaugh followers. Nothing like that has happened with the late night hosts and you know it. If you just want to ignore those facts so you can make your argument, that's perfectly fine, but it makes you look like a dumbass when you call someone a hypocrite after they noted the clear differences between the two situations.

No, I'm saying I've heard this particular mantra for years. I know some people who seriously wanted him to and believed he would run for president in 2000. Rush has been one of the strongest speakers for the republican party for years unlike any democrats except Al Frankin ( and lookie what he did )and I feel that it's hypocritical to ignore that and assume this only happened overnight.

[Axxon]

I didn't say anything about her character. I was making fun of her speech, which was terrible. I don't mind a good sports metaphor. I use them all the time. I was making fun of the fact that she botched the one she used, and then threw in several other cliches/metaphors along the way.

Gotcha. Noted.

[Tigercat]

Bush's daughters got media and comedy attention for drinking. Chelsea would have gotten negative press/jokes if she got in trouble as a late teen. Late teens getting in trouble = fair game for press reporting and comedians. That is the way it is, even if that is unfortunate, and Palin and Bristol did not get special treatment.

Bush got just as much negative attention for his blunders as Palin did.

Clinton and Edwards got jokes/press over their expensive haircuts just as Palin got attention over her wardrobe.

I am sorry, but where in the hell is the special character assassination that Palin went through? At worst, she got a strong magnifying glass because she came out of nowhere into Presidential level politics. But what she was criticized for and made fun of for was absolutely nothing unusual.

[Axxon]

Bush's daughters got media and comedy attention for drinking. Chelsea would have gotten negative press/jokes if she got in trouble as a late teen. Late teens getting in trouble = fair game for press reporting and comedians. That is the way it is, even if that is unfortunate, and Palin and Bristol did not get special treatment.


I don't believe the Bush girls got that much negative press and I clearly don't remember anyone suggesting Bush slept with either of them. That's garbage.

The last family member who took it in the shorts this badly was Billy and he was a grown man and had a sense of humor about it.

[Flasch186]

I remember the Chelsea = ugly jokes....

I thought that they were the news though and not jokes. Although since she got into college and such I thought she was actually hittable. {shrug}

[JonInMiddleGA]

Although since she got into college and such I thought she was actually hittable. {shrug}

Eww.

[Tekneek]

I agree with all of this. This all started because I thought she may have possibly decided to remove herself from public life to spare herself and her family more of this. Are you willing to concede that? No problem if you aren't. We can agree to disagree on it. It's not that important. :)

Sure, why not? Ultimately, I don't really care what she does, as long as it doesn't involve her governing over me.

[Young Drachma]

The BRAD BLOG : EXCLUSIVE: PALIN RESIGNATION 'DAMAGE CONTROL' FOR COMING 'ICEBERG SCANDAL' ... MORE: EMBEZZLEMENT INDICTMENTS COMING? (http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7280)

[Flasch186]

Blogs are a bad place to get news from IMO.

[Young Drachma]

Blogs are a bad place to get news from IMO.

I wasn't getting news from it. I was just contributing it to the conversation.

You know...they report, you decide.

[Axxon]

The BRAD BLOG : EXCLUSIVE: PALIN RESIGNATION 'DAMAGE CONTROL' FOR COMING 'ICEBERG SCANDAL' ... MORE: EMBEZZLEMENT INDICTMENTS COMING? (http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7280)

Lettuce not overreact to the Iceberg scandal.

[larrymcg421]

It can't be a real scandal. It doesn't even have "gate" at the end.

[Axxon]

It can't be a real scandal. It doesn't even have "gate" at the end.

Give it time man. Give it time.

[Drake]

It isn't her fault. It just demonstrates how her philosophy is not the answer. Her own daughter has said that abstinence is unrealistic. In other words, she should stop wasting people's time claiming that is a solution.

I'm guessing from the fact that you just argued that a teenager disagreeing with mom and dad's position on issue X automatically makes mom and dad wrong that you don't have teenagers.

;)

[rowech]

I'm guessing from the fact that you just argued that a teenager disagreeing with mom and dad's position on issue X automatically makes mom and dad wrong that you don't have teenagers.

;)

Those were my thoughts...I guess every time his kids disagree with him, he's wrong.

[Tekneek]

If my daughter is pregnant, then my promotion of abstinence is an abject failure. I see that is somehow difficult to comprehend, but it looks pretty obvious to me.

[Axxon]

If my daughter is pregnant, then my promotion of abstinence is an abject failure. I see that is somehow difficult to comprehend, but it looks pretty obvious to me.
You're kidding right? If your kid does something against your belief you are a failure? Really? Damn. Just damn.

[larrymcg421]

It sure is hard to convince people that abstinence only is the way to go in schools when you as a parent can't even make that work in your own home.

[Axxon]

It sure is hard to convince people that abstinence only is the way to go in schools when you as a parent can't even make that work in your own home.

So someone who has a drunken relative should just shut the fuck up about the dangers of alcohol abuse? Odd.

[Tekneek]

You're kidding right? If your kid does something against your belief you are a failure? Really? Damn. Just damn.

When did I say that makes me a failure? Or makes Sarah Palin a failure? I said it makes that position/cause a failure.

I have read my statements a few more times and they seem pretty clear, so I am not convinced the problem is on my end.

[Tekneek]

So someone who has a drunken relative should just shut the fuck up about the dangers of alcohol abuse? Odd.

If you're promoting a particular theory/view on how to avoid getting drunk, yet your daughter is walking around drunk all the time, then you would definitely have a hard time selling it.

[thesloppy]

I think it's fair to say that a child is much more than just 'a relative' and becoming pregnant with a child is much more than just 'doing something against your belief'. Likewise, if you position yourself as a proponent of abstinence, and your teenage daughter gets pregnant, I think that is a good indicator that your words and your convictions are not entirely in balance.

[Axxon]

When did I say that makes me a failure? Or makes Sarah Palin a failure? I said it makes that position/cause a failure.

I have read my statements a few more times and they seem pretty clear, so I am not convinced the problem is on my end.

Ok, so the position is automically a failure if someone other than you takes the opposite position? I'm not getting that either frankly but I'll move my statement to that failure as opposed to a personal failure if you want.

[Tekneek]

Ok, so the position is automically a failure if someone other than you takes the opposite position? I'm not getting that either frankly but I'll move my statement to that failure as opposed to a personal failure if you want.

I wish you were making sense.

[larrymcg421]

So someone who has a drunken relative should just shut the fuck up about the dangers of alcohol abuse? Odd.

First you change it from child to relative, which is completely different because no one expects you to be responsible for your uncle Ned.

I would say that if you advocate a no alcohol policy in schools, and want to prohibit teaching kids not to drive drunk, then your daughter gets a DUI, it makes your policy look foolish. You lose credibility on that issue.

[Axxon]

I think it's fair to say that a child is much more than just 'a relative' and becoming pregnant with a child is much more than just 'doing something against your belief'. Likewise, if you position yourself as a proponent of abstinence, and your teenage daughter gets pregnant, I think that is a good indicator that your words and your convictions are not entirely in balance.

True, couldn't possibly be anyting but that. Couldn't be someone else disagreening or letting their hormones take over their bodies for a while. That never happens or if it does, it immediately means that the person not doing the actions words and convictions are not entirely in balance.

Of course, how her words and actions can force anything isn't really our problem. If she couldn't convinve her daughter then obviously her words and convictions aren't in balance instead of her stepford daughters convictions either being different or compromised. Her actions are her parents fault.

Can't believe I missed this.

[Axxon]

I wish you were making sense. You said this

I said it makes that position/cause a failure.

This clearly says her position/cause is a failure.

I said this
Ok, so the position is automically a failure if someone other than you takes the opposite position?

to clarify that you indeed call the position a failure even though Sarah did nothing against her position.

I then gave you that


I'm not getting that either frankly but I'll move my statement to that failure as opposed to a personal failure if you want. to clearly say that it wasn't a failure in Sarah but a failure of the policy that you felt occurred. Now all kids everywhere can have free sex as obviously the policy of abstinence is a failure.

Not sure if this makes any sense to you but it does to me.

[thesloppy]

Notice the words 'good indicator', or if you'd like me tor respond in kind with over-excited hyperbole, sarcasm and strawmen:

Yeah, you're right, parents have absolutely no effect on children.

[Axxon]

First you change it from child to relative, which is completely different because no one expects you to be responsible for your uncle Ned.

I would say that if you advocate a no alcohol policy in schools, and want to prohibit teaching kids not to drive drunk, then your daughter gets a DUI, it makes your policy look foolish. You lose credibility on that issue.


So, call it a child. I'm good with that. A child can't possibly go against their parent's beliefs or the parent is a failure. I won't give you that. I wasn't 100% obligated to inherent beliefs nor did I and it was in no way an indicator of her success as a parent or invalidates her positions. Hell, some of them were right.

[Axxon]

Notice the words 'good indicator', or if you'd like me tor respond in kind with over-excited hyperbole, sarcasm and strawmen:

Yeah, you're right, parents have absolutely no effect on children. I'm not even going to give you good indicator frankly. It's easy to say but I'd like to see more proof than just a statement.

I guess it's a good indicator that parent's of murders or kidnappers or shoplifters or terroristrs words and convictions are not entirely in balance. I just don't see the logic of this broad a brush honestly.

[Tekneek]

I then gave you that

to clearly say that it wasn't a failure in Sarah but a failure of the policy that you felt occurred. Now all kids everywhere can have free sex as obviously the policy of abstinence is a failure.

Not sure if this makes any sense to you but it does to me.

It doesn't indicate the person is a failure. It's indicates their involvement with a particular cause/position is a failure. Good luck selling to anybody that abstinence is a realistic scheme to avoid unwed pregnant teenagers, when your very own daughter is one of them. You cease to be very convincing.

[SteveMax58]

Now all kids everywhere can have free sex as obviously the policy of abstinence is a failure.

I would think that we could keep them occupied by sending them to "safe drunk driving" classes instead.

I mean...since many parents tell their kids to not drive drunk...and that apparently doesn't work for ALL parents...then the only logical thing to do is to teach them how to drive drunk "safely".

[thesloppy]

Axxon, you seem to be having the biggest stumbling block equating deep seated 'beliefs' with a publicized (and in this case political) position. You seem to be arguing that Sarah Palin should not be criticized for the beliefs that her daughter may not share, whereas I think everybody else is still stumbling over whether Palin's 'beliefs' are even real, or just generated for publicity/policy. I'm not in any way questioning her right to believe in abstinence (regardless of what her daughter does), I just don't believe she does, at least not in the way she says she does, and I think a pregnant daughter makes for some pretty good evidence.

[larrymcg421]

The policy of abstinence isn't a failure. The policy of abstinence only is a failure.

But keep building up those strawmen!

[thesloppy]

I guess it's a good indicator that parent's of murders or kidnappers or shoplifters or terroristrs words and convictions are not entirely in balance. I just don't see the logic of this broad a brush honestly.

Uhhh, yeah?

[Axxon]

I would think that we could keep them occupied by sending them to "safe drunk driving" classes instead.

I mean...since many parents tell their kids to not drive drunk...and that apparently doesn't work for ALL parents...then the only logical thing to do is to teach them how to drive drunk "safely".

I agree.

[rowech]

What is the only 100% surefire way to not get pregnant? Should it be the only thing promoted? No. Should we just drop abstinence because kids are going to have sex?

Tekneek...not sure if you have kids or not but you are asking from seriously nasty karma if you aren't careful.

[Tekneek]

I guess it's a good indicator that parent's of murders or kidnappers or shoplifters or terroristrs words and convictions are not entirely in balance. I just don't see the logic of this broad a brush honestly.

Hey, I'm not saying Bristol Palin is a bad person. It doesn't really matter much to me that she got pregnant as a teenager and isn't marrying the father. What matters to me is that Sarah Palin will try to influence policy in the direction of a view that didn't even work for her own family. She has a credibility problem with it that many can see right through. Better to just revise her position, or drop it altogether. It will bother her devout following, but at least it will be believable.

It is not the same, but it is similar to somebody like Mark Sanford still rolling out the "sanctity of marriage" bit to tell others how they should live, while not having it apply to his own family. It is a much more direct issue there, but you will always have a credibility issue when your family contradicts the way you're telling others to conduct themselves.

[larrymcg421]

What is the only 100% surefire way to not get pregnant? Should it be the only thing promoted? No. Should we just drop abstinence because kids are going to have sex?

Who in this thread is saying abstinence should not be taught at all?

People are confusing abstinence with abstinence only. I would not support a sex education program that did not teach abstinence as part of the curriculum. I think such a program would be just as stupid as one that taught abstinence only.

[Axxon]

Axxon, you seem to be having the biggest stumbling block equating deep seated 'beliefs' with a publicized (and in this case political) position. You seem to be arguing that Sarah Palin should not be criticized for the beliefs that her daughter may not share, whereas I think everybody else is still stumbling over whether Palin's 'beliefs' are even real, or just generated for publicity/policy. I'm not in any way questioning her right to believe in abstinence (regardless of what her daughter does), I just don't believe she does, at least not in the way she says she does, and I think a pregnant daughter makes for some pretty good evidence.

I just don't get how her daughters actions are any evidence about her. I'm talking personal experience. My beliefs did not mirror either of my parents beliefs I was too young and immature; I was wrong. I don't see how my being wrong sheds any light on their sincerity nor have either of them acted contrary to their beliefs or recanted them. I just don't get how anything I did had anything to do with their honesty or how Bristols actions had anything to do with Sarah's.

Not a good communicator, maybe. But not someone who doesn't believe what she's trying to say. That's painting with too broad a brush IMHO.

[Tekneek]

The policy of abstinence isn't a failure. The policy of abstinence only is a failure.

But keep building up those strawmen!

That was my main point, once this became a primary point. Palin appears to promote the view that it is a one-stop solution to the problem, which the evidence in her own home contradicts.

[Tekneek]

What is the only 100% surefire way to not get pregnant? Should it be the only thing promoted? No. Should we just drop abstinence because kids are going to have sex?

No, but you don't adopt a policy that excludes other ways to avoid unwanted pregnancy. Palin's policy, as I recall, was of abstinence alone. Nothing else. That is not realistic and intentionally attempts to keep people in the dark about other ways to avoid it, which means that when abstinence fails there is nothing else left to decrease the odds of an unwanted pregnancy.

Tekneek...not sure if you have kids or not but you are asking from seriously nasty karma if you aren't careful.

First of all, there is no such thing as karma in the real world. Secondly, I have a much more realistic view of the world than the magical one that Palin and some others try to live in.

[Axxon]

Hey, I'm not saying Bristol Palin is a bad person.
I'm not saying you are but I am saying if good behavior is judged one way then bad behavior must also be and to temper it I threw in small stuff like shoplifting ( should have used jaywalking so I will ) to make that point it isn't about being bad. Jaywalking doesn't make you a bad person but if a kid jaywalks it says nothing about their parent.


It doesn't really matter much to me that she got pregnant as a teenager and isn't marrying the father. What matters to me is that Sarah Palin will try to influence policy in the direction of a view that didn't even work for her own family.
Albeit one that her daughter apparently regrets and now has agreed with her mothers views. Sounds more like Sarah has even more support for her position in light of this.


She has a credibility problem with it that many want to read something that supports their negative opinion of her through.

Fixed that for you. Therein lies the rub. I feel there is enough to dislike about her opinions to try and paint parents with this brush or ever assume they should take a position they disagree with because a child made a mistake. That's just so wrong.


It is not the same, but it is similar to somebody like Mark Sanford still rolling out the "sanctity of marriage" bit to tell others how they should live, while not having it apply to his own family. It is a much more direct issue there, but you will always have a credibility issue when your family contradicts the way you're telling others to conduct themselves. Different issues for reasons you explained. Maybe if Jenny had stuck by him but that didn't happen. Jenny advocates monogamy. Does Mark's actions in any way impugn her or the message? This is a much better question in this case.

[Axxon]

No, but you don't adopt a policy that excludes other ways to avoid unwanted pregnancy. Palin's policy, as I recall, was of abstinence alone. Nothing else. That is not realistic and intentionally attempts to keep people in the dark about other ways to avoid it, which means that when abstinence fails there is nothing else left to decrease the odds of an unwanted pregnancy.
.

Ok, I agree with your criticism of her position. Just to make that clear. I believe in what you wrote above. I just don't think what happened to her daughter has any bearing on whether the policy is flawed or not. That's my only disagreement here. To me it's a cheap shot and actually avoids the issue which has enough evidence on it's own that fishing expeditions aren't really needed.

[thesloppy]

I just don't get how her daughters actions are any evidence about her. I'm talking personal experience. My beliefs did not mirror either of my parents beliefs I was too young and immature; I was wrong. I don't see how my being wrong sheds any light on their sincerity nor have either of them acted contrary to their beliefs or recanted them. I just don't get how anything I did had anything to do with their honesty or how Bristols actions had anything to do with Sarah's.


Well, you're getting into the realm of where you're now denying what is accepted as basic human psychology, so I don't know what to tell you. It's pretty widely accepted that your parents are your primary influence on your actions and your values, to the point that I thought it was common sense. No, of course your parents aren't responsible for every single action you take, but seriously, all you're doing now is slinging out one straw man after another to obscure an argument that has devolved into questioning common sense, hoping to obfuscate the fact that your point has completely dissolved into the ether.

[Tekneek]

I'm not saying you are but I am saying if good behavior is judged one way then bad behavior must also be and to temper it I threw in small stuff like shoplifting ( should have used jaywalking so I will ) to make that point it isn't about being bad. Jaywalking doesn't make you a bad person but if a kid jaywalks it says nothing about their parent.

I think it does. I don't blame parents 100% for everything their offspring do, but I don't absolve them completely from the start either.

Albeit one that her daughter apparently regrets and now has agreed with her mothers views. Sounds more like Sarah has even more support for her position in light of this.

An unwed teenage mother might agree to many things, because it is surely a lot better than being tossed out on your ass with nowhere to turn. There is still a credibility issue there, for me, because it is hard to tell whether she is truly convinced, or sees that it is the best way to make sure her parents pay her bills and help her raise this baby.

Fixed that for you. Therein lies the rub. I feel there is enough to dislike about her opinions to try and paint parents with this brush or ever assume they should take a position they disagree with because a child made a mistake. That's just so wrong.

I don't care about her personal views, per se, but her political views. If she wants to push a view into public policy that has already failed her family, she's not a good spokesperson for the cause. End of the story. Like it or not.

[Axxon]

Well, you're getting into the realm of where you're now denying what is accepted as basic human psychology, so I don't know what to tell you. It's pretty widely accepted that your parents are your primary influence on your actions and your values, to the point that I thought it was common sense. No, of course your parents aren't responsible for every single action you take, but seriously, all you're doing now is slinging out one straw man after another to obscure an argument that has devolved into questioning common sense, hoping to obfuscate the fact that your point has completely dissolved into the ether.

I've been very consistent in my opinion. Now you're saying that the parent isn't responsible for every single action that you take but in this case it's clearly her responsibility. I'm not sure how you were able to decide what actions a parent is responsible for and what actions they're not unless it's to support your prejudged opinion of the parent. I'm really not seeing it.

[thesloppy]

I don't care about her personal views, per se, but her political views. If she wants to push a view into public policy that has already failed her family, she's not a good spokesperson for the cause. End of the story. Like it or not.

Same here, If she didn't think it was a big enough deal to enforce within her family, but still feels that she should force it on the entire country, why shouldn't we question that? If she feels HER daughter is responsible enough to make that choice on her own, but the rest of our children aren't, why can't we question that?

[Axxon]

I think it does. I don't blame parents 100% for everything their offspring do, but I don't absolve them completely from the start either.


But you've already decided that a child's view on premarital sex is the parents fault right? I'm just trying to be clear. Where do we draw the line?

[thesloppy]

I've been very consistent in my opinion. Now you're saying that the parent isn't responsible for every single action that you take but in this case it's clearly her responsibility. I'm not sure how you were able to decide what actions a parent is responsible for and what actions they're not unless it's to support your prejudged opinion of the parent. I'm really not seeing it.

So, for clarity's sake, your position (that you've been super clear on) is that a parent has absolutely no effect an anything a child does, at any time in their lives. Or are you the only one who gets strawmen this round?

[Tekneek]

But you've already decided that a child's view on premarital sex is the parents fault right? I'm just trying to be clear. Where do we draw the line?

No, I haven't. I was pointing out the absurdity to claim that you've got the solution, when it failed inside your very own home. I have to tell you, I would never try to push a program through public policy that had already flopped in my own family. That would be the first wake up call that the concept needs some revisions in order to find success. I suppose some people aren't troubled by reality and will push their flawed/failed views regardless.

[Axxon]

So, for clarity's sake, your position (that you've been super clear on) is that a parent has absolutely no effect an anything a child does, at any time in their lives. Or are you the only one who gets strawmen this round?

I'm saying there is no issue where the parent is totally responsible for their childs actions nor is there any way to judge a parents credibility in their beliefs because their child took an action contrary to the parent's belief. There is no way to judge what went through Bristols mind but I'm betting what mamma told her wasn't really up there at that point in time.

That is common sense my friend.

[larrymcg421]

I'm saying there is no issue where the parent is totally responsible for their childs actions nor is there any way to judge a parents credibility in their beliefs because their child took an action contrary to the parent's belief. There is no way to judge what went through Bristols mind but I'm betting what mamma told her wasn't really up there at that point in time.

That is common sense my friend.

And we're saying that if momma had also told her that if you do have sex, you should make sure he wears a raincoat, then maybe she wouldn't be pregnant right now.

[Axxon]

No, I haven't. I was pointing out the absurdity to claim that you've got the solution, when it failed inside your very own home. I have to tell you, I would never try to push a program through public policy that had already flopped in my own family. That would be the first wake up call that the concept needs some revisions in order to find success. I suppose some people aren't troubled by reality and will push their flawed/failed views regardless.

So a parent of a kid that dies sniffing glue has no reason to push for a public policy program trying to prevent glue sniffing? A parent whose child drove drunk can't push for a public policy program to try and prevent other parent's having a similar experience? Are you saying that learning a harsh lesson disqualifies you from advocating public policy on that issue?

[Tekneek]

I'm saying there is no issue where the parent is totally responsible for their childs actions nor is there any way to judge a parents credibility in their beliefs because their child took an action contrary to the parent's belief. There is no way to judge what went through Bristols mind but I'm betting what mamma told her wasn't really up there at that point in time.

That is common sense my friend.

Which reveals why Sarah Palin's view, trying to tell the rest of us that abstinence is the only solution for the rest of society, is a failure. It didn't even stick with her own daughter, who presumably she would have the most influence upon.

[Tekneek]

So a parent of a kid that dies sniffing glue has no reason to push for a public policy program trying to prevent glue sniffing? A parent whose child drove drunk can't push for a public policy program to try and prevent other parent's having a similar experience? Are you saying that learning a harsh lesson disqualifies you from advocating public policy on that issue?

Done with your strawmen. No more.

[Axxon]

And we're saying that if momma had also told her that if you do have sex, you should make sure he wears a raincoat, then maybe she wouldn't be pregnant right now.

Ok, but this gets into way too personal an area. I bet if the choice was between a raincoat and no raincoat Sarah would advise the raincoat but her belief is that between abstinence and the raincoat she's only gonna support the abstinence. In her mind, the raincoat encourages her kids to screw like rabbits and that's not how she'd prefer they live.

I don't agree with her opinion and I wouldn't want it to be public policy but I just don't see how her daughter getting pregnant impugns her views. It wasn't the right thing, her daughter admits it but they are dealing with it. To say that because her daughter got knocked up she's abandoning her beliefs would be worse.

Again, to be clear. We don't disagreer with the wrongness of her position. We disagree with what her daughter getting pregnant says about her veracity in holding said position.

[Axxon]

Done with your strawmen. No more.

You're right. Abstinence is the only policy that is dictated solely by the parent. Sorry I wasn't seeing it.

[Chubby]

homemade prono is coming out next week, that's why she resigned

[Axxon]

Which reveals why Sarah Palin's view, trying to tell the rest of us that abstinence is the only solution for the rest of society, is a failure. It didn't even stick with her own daughter, who presumably she would have the most influence upon.

It must suck to be an orphan.

[SteveMax58]

No, I haven't. I was pointing out the absurdity to claim that you've got the solution, when it failed inside your very own home. I have to tell you, I would never try to push a program through public policy that had already flopped in my own family. That would be the first wake up call that the concept needs some revisions in order to find success. I suppose some people aren't troubled by reality and will push their flawed/failed views regardless.

I'm not a Sarah Palin fan by any means...but do you not see a difference between what is taught in a school by teachers vs. what is taught at home by parents? And the ability for parents to determine their own discretionary education on social/morality issues?

I'd also submit that her logic and approach to parenting (in regards to sex ed) is likely less related to what she specifically tells her daughter about sex and more about how she has taught her daughter to formulate decisions in general, in her life.

I think this issue is a bit overblown in importance (like many conservative issues), and I really have no issues with "potential" preventionary methods of pregnancy and STDs, but it doesn't point specifically to a policy view disconnect IMHO...nor does it make sense to judge policy by "Palin daughter = pregnant= taught abstinence only = failure of policy".

[Axxon]

I'm not a Sarah Palin fan by any means...but do you not see a difference between what is taught in a school by teachers vs. what is taught at home by parents? And the ability for parents to determine their own discretionary education on social/morality issues?

I'd also submit that her logic and approach to parenting (in regards to sex ed) is likely less related to what she specifically tells her daughter about sex and more about how she has taught her daughter to formulate decisions in general, in her life.

I think this issue is a bit overblown in importance (like many conservative issues), and I really have no issues with "potential" preventionary methods of pregnancy and STDs, but it doesn't point specifically to a policy view disconnect IMHO...nor does it make sense to judge policy by "Palin daughter = pregnant= taught abstinence only = failure of policy".

It's also totally dishonest since no policy has ever been or can be 100% effective.

[BrianD]

I think this issue is a bit overblown in importance (like many conservative issues), and I really have no issues with "potential" preventionary methods of pregnancy and STDs, but it doesn't point specifically to a policy view disconnect IMHO...nor does it make sense to judge policy by "Palin daughter = pregnant= taught abstinence only = failure of policy".

Can we just shorten this to say an experiment with a sample-size of one tells us nothing?

[Marc Vaughan]

I think it's fair to say that a child is much more than just 'a relative' and becoming pregnant with a child is much more than just 'doing something against your belief'. Likewise, if you position yourself as a proponent of abstinence, and your teenage daughter gets pregnant, I think that is a good indicator that your words and your convictions are not entirely in balance.

First off I'm not actually a Palin supporter and find her somewhat banal and uninformed when I've seen her speak.

That being said I think its a silly thing to blame a parent for the actions of their child without knowledge of the situation involved. I know many parents who've brought their kids up to be good, moral, law abiding citizens - despite this their kids have had prangs with the law and suchlike, even in one case becoming pregnant under the age of consent.

Did this mean that the parents in question didn't try and stand by their beliefs - heck no, all it meant was that their kids were like any other kids and made their own decisions.

As a parent you do the best you can to bring up your kids and immerse them within your own ideals - however ultimately your children will make their own minds up and choose their own path. I know that my kids will and I sincerely hope all will go well for them when they do, I can't live their lives for them and imho it would restrict their growth and maturity if I did.

[Axxon]

Can we just shorten this to say an experiment with a sample-size of one tells us nothing?

Do you mean anecdotal evidence does not equal data?

[SteveMax58]

Can we just shorten this to say an experiment with a sample-size of one tells us nothing?

Yeah...I like that better.

[BrianD]

Do you mean anecdotal evidence does not equal data?

It is crazy, but true. :)

[Tekneek]

Can we just shorten this to say an experiment with a sample-size of one tells us nothing?

Fortunately, we have more than just Bristol Palin out there, otherwise the public policy debate would not even exist.

[BrianD]

When the goal is preventing teenage pregnancy, it can tell you that "abstinence alone" could use a safety net behind it.

No, it really can't.

[Axxon]

This made me ponder the question of prostitution. It's pretty equivalent to premarital sex really. It's exactly the same except the woman gets paid. It's an amateur vs professional thing. Now, if I was to believe that this was a parental belief issue then I'd have to say that prostitutes parents honestly are for prostitution or at the very least shouldn't speak up against the issue.

I wonder if they've ever studied this? I know they've studied alot about prostitution but I don't know about this part. If so, then I'd wonder what those studies showed. I may be wrong and indeed, the best indicator about who would be a prostitute is to find out what their parents really think about prostition. Not about how they'd feel about their kid being one. I'm trying to be fair here, but about their acceptance of prostitution in general.

[thesloppy]

I'm saying there is no issue where the parent is totally responsible for their childs actions nor is there any way to judge a parents credibility in their beliefs because their child took an action contrary to the parent's belief. There is no way to judge what went through Bristols mind but I'm betting what mamma told her wasn't really up there at that point in time.

That is common sense my friend.

I think that is a fair argument, were we not also talking about a political figure. Note that you are arguing now that Sarah Palin's attitude on abstinence had little to no effect on Bristol, that you wouldn't expect that Sarah Palin's words to have much of an effect on her own daughter, and that her own daughter would even vocally reject the attitude, BUT you think it's totally unfair for the rest of the country to reject her attitude.

It's undeniably true that I don't really know what Sarah Palin's beliefs are. I don't think Bristol's pregnancy necessarily represents a failure in Palin's beliefs, but quite literally it does indeed represent a failure in governing those beliefs, and while I don't give a damn about Palin's child-rearing skills, I do think there is certainly some crossover in governing a home and a country/state, and you damn well shouldn't be telling me and my kids what to do, without telling me why it doesn't apply to you and yours.

The bottom line is sincerity. People will believe you and trust you if they think you're sincere, and many many people don't believe Sarah Palin has an ounce of sincerity in her body (compared to someone like Obama, who reeks sincerity, manufactured or not). I think the abstinence/Bristol came to represent the whole of Palin's questionable sincerity, unfortunately because it was something you could so easily piece together on your own....most questions of political sincerity devolve into discussions of back-room escapades, and asides muttered at Camp David, that the rank and file have to take third-hand, but here for once is something that was quite obviously off, that the public could put together on their own and without all that messy conspiracy stuff, and so it snow balled into something uglier and more personal than it should've been...but anybody experienced in politics should have been expecting just that.

[Tekneek]

No, it really can't.

Revised my comment to be more accurate. Sorry I bit on your bait, of course, because we all know the public debate existed before Bristol Palin got pregnant, and the scientific support for "abstinence only" evaporated a while back.

[BrianD]

Revised my comment to be more accurate. Sorry I bit on your bait, of course, because we all know the public debate existed before Bristol Palin got pregnant, and the scientific support for "abstinence only" evaporated a while back.

I agree that abstinence only is probably a very bad policy. I just don't think that attacking Palin on the policy because her daughter got pregnant serves much of a purpose. Considering her and her guy claimed to use protection "most of the time", I'd say that they must have known about more than abstinence. Looks like nothing is foolproof.

[Tekneek]

I agree that abstinence only is probably a very bad policy. I just don't think that attacking Palin on the policy because her daughter got pregnant serves much of a purpose. Considering her and her guy claimed to use protection "most of the time", I'd say that they must have known about more than abstinence. Looks like nothing is foolproof.

Of course. I never attacked her for it. I just find it absurd that someone, already with a pregnant teenage daughter, would try to tell other people that they have the solution (and then present an already proven-to-be-flawed view on the issue). As I said earlier, this wasn't the only problem.

[thesloppy]

I wonder if they've ever studied this? I know they've studied alot about prostitution but I don't know about this part. If so, then I'd wonder what those studies showed. I may be wrong and indeed, the best indicator about who would be a prostitute is to find out what their parents really think about prostition. Not about how they'd feel about their kid being one. I'm trying to be fair here, but about their acceptance of prostitution in general.

Not surprisingly, in many studies, prostitution/promiscuity of the mother has been linked to teen prostitution, but the VAST majority of prostitutes (over 90%) were abused by their parents.

[Axxon]

I think that is a fair argument, were we not also talking about a political figure. Note that you are arguing now that Sarah Palin's attitude on abstinence had little to no effect on Bristol, that you wouldn't expect that Sarah Palin's words to have much of an effect on her own daughter, and that her own daughter would even vocally reject the attitude, BUT you think it's totally unfair for the rest of the country to reject her attitude.

No, I don't. I reject her argument. I just don't call her belief in that argument a false one because her daughter got pregnant. That's been my entire point.


It's undeniably true that I don't really know what Sarah Palin's beliefs are. I don't think Bristol's pregnancy necessarily represents a failure in Palin's beliefs, but quite literally it does indeed represent a failure in governing those beliefs,

with you so far.

and while I don't give a damn about Palin's child-rearing skills, I do think there is certainly some crossover in governing a home and a country/state, and you damn well shouldn't be telling me and my kids what to do, without telling me why it doesn't apply to you and yours.

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't recall her ever saying the rules didn't apply to her and hers. I remember her saying they'd live with the situation and cherish the child but where did she ever say it was ok for her child to have a child out of wedlock but not someone elses?


The bottom line is sincerity. People will believe you and trust you if they think you're sincere, and many many people don't believe Sarah Palin has an ounce of sincerity in her body (compared to someone like Obama, who reeks sincerity, manufactured or not). I think the abstinence/Bristol came to represent the whole of Palin's questionable sincerity, unfortunately because it was something you could so easily piece together on your own....most questions of political sincerity devolve into discussions of back-room escapades, and asides muttered at Camp David, that the rank and file have to take third-hand, but here for once is something that was quite obviously off, that the public could put together on their own and without all that messy conspiracy stuff, and so it snow balled into something uglier and more personal than it should've been...but anybody experienced in politics should have been expecting just that.

I'll admit to playing the devils advocate for a bit in regards to her specifically but if I may continue, isn't it wrong on one hand in this very thread to call her politically naive and out of her league then give her this much credit for her political subterfuge?

[Axxon]

Not surprisingly, in many studies, prostitution/promiscuity of the mother has been linked to teen prostitution, but the VAST majority of prostitutes (over 90%) were abused by their parents.

I'm not doubting you but do you have a cite? This issue came up at work yesterday and I'm really curious. I really wonder how many prostitutes are really abuse victims vs those who simply claim it for sympathy from their johns and authority figures. I'd hate to be this cynical and if your numbers are true then I feel bad for wondering.

[Axxon]

Dola, I would be very surprised if parental abuse was more of a common factor in prostitution than drug abuse. I'd love to be proven wrong.

[thesloppy]

No, I don't. I reject her argument. I just don't call her belief in that argument a false one because her daughter got pregnant. That's been my entire point.

Well, this is probably more of a basic disbelief of mine that is spilling over into this debate. As she is a politician, I assume her publicly espoused beliefs are false until proven differently, whereas you've given her the benefit of the doubt. So I see some, albeit shaky evidence on the 'false' side and nothing but hot political air on the 'true' side, which isn't enough to change my initial thought, whereas the shaky evidence alone certainly isn't enough to sway your initial thought. From the 'human' point of view, I can certainly see where your coming from, and were she not standing on a podium, shouting her beliefs through a megaphone, I'd probably agree with you.


Maybe I'm wrong but I don't recall her ever saying the rules didn't apply to her and hers. I remember her saying they'd live with the situation and cherish the child but where did she ever say it was ok for her child to have a child out of wedlock but not someone elses?

She did not specifically do anything to say that the rules didn't apply to her, she simply didn't act or speak with a convincing conviction, and basically left everybody else to fill in the blanks behind her. Again, it was a case of not so much what she did, but what she didn't do, and another instance of where she may not have contradicted herself, so much as not doing or saying a single thing of substance to support her belief beyond making a simple thin statement. And again, if she were not a politician, I wouldn't feel she had any duty to defend her beliefs, but as a politician she should be ready, willing, and eager to defend and explain her beliefs in depth.


I'll admit to playing the devils advocate for a bit in regards to her specifically but if I may continue, isn't it wrong on one hand in this very thread to call her politically naive and out of her league then give her this much credit for her political subterfuge?

Yes and no, as I imagine each person's definition of 'Sarah Palin' may be a little different. When I reference Sarah Palin, I'm thinking of one person, but undoubtedly the 'person' we saw and heard was an amalgamation of handlers, speech writers, and whomever else, depending on the situation.

[thesloppy]

Dola, I would be very surprised if parental abuse was more of a common factor in prostitution than drug abuse. I'd love to be proven wrong.

http://www.rapeis.org/activism/prostitution/prostitutionfacts.html

"estimates of the prevalence of incest among prostitutes range from 65% to 90%. The Council for Prostitution Alternatives, Portland, Oregon Annual Report in 1991 stated that: 85% of prostitute/clients reported history of sexual abuse in childhood; 70% reported incest. The higher percentages (80%-90%) of reports of incest and childhood sexual assaults of prostitutes come from anecdotal reports and from clinicians working with prostitutes "

There are more cites, but most appear to be using this study. Don't look up any more facts on prostitutes, they are not enjoyable.

[Axxon]

Well, this is probably more of a basic disbelief of mine that is spilling over into this debate. As she is a politician, I assume her publicly espoused beliefs are false until proven differently, whereas you've given her the benefit of the doubt. So I see some, albeit shaky evidence on the 'false' side and nothing but hot political air on the 'true' side, which isn't enough to change my initial thought, whereas the shaky evidence alone certainly isn't enough to sway your initial thought. From the 'human' point of view, I can certainly see where your coming from, and were she not standing on a podium, shouting her beliefs through a megaphone, I'd probably agree with you.



She did not specifically do anything to say that the rules didn't apply to her, she simply didn't act or speak with a convincing conviction, and basically left everybody else to fill in the blanks behind her. Again, it was a case of not so much what she did, but what she didn't do, and another instance of where she may not have contradicted herself, so much as not doing or saying a single thing of substance to support her belief beyond making a simple thin statement. And again, if she were not a politician, I wouldn't feel she had any duty to defend her beliefs, but as a politician she should be ready, willing, and eager to defend and explain her beliefs in depth.



Yes and no, as I imagine each person's definition of 'Sarah Palin' may be a little different. When I reference Sarah Palin, I'm thinking of one person, but undoubtedly the 'person' we saw and heard was an amalgamation of handlers, speech writers, and whomever else, depending on the situation.

Yeah, I am trying to see the human being inside the politician in my position. Considering the fact that she's not a particularly good politician it made me wonder. I can understand the cynical side as well but would rather reserve it to those whose prowess I more respect.

I'll admit I feel a bit sorry for her because she's way out of her league. I'm happy that she is but at the same time watching the kid with glassess sucking on an inhaler getting his butt kicked by a bully is a tad bit uncomfortable to me even if he told the bully to kiss his ass.

[Axxon]

http://www.rapeis.org/activism/prostitution/prostitutionfacts.html

"estimates of the prevalence of incest among prostitutes range from 65% to 90%. The Council for Prostitution Alternatives, Portland, Oregon Annual Report in 1991 stated that: 85% of prostitute/clients reported history of sexual abuse in childhood; 70% reported incest. The higher percentages (80%-90%) of reports of incest and childhood sexual assaults of prostitutes come from anecdotal reports and from clinicians working with prostitutes "

There are more cites, but most appear to be using this study. Don't look up any more facts on prostitutes, they are not enjoyable.

Is that they reported the child abuse/incest as children or that they reported that as children they had been abused? If it's the former, it says alot about society too. Either way, there's a problem. I'd still like to know the percentage who are on drugs since maybe that's not what drove them to prostitution but it's keeping a lot of them there.

[Drake]

I have been forced to conclude from this thread that speed limits are bad public policy.

Despite the fact that I've told my oldest son over and over to drive the speed limit (speed limit only) because he might get a ticket, he's gotten speeding tickets (twice!!) in the year since he's had his license.

If my own kid won't drive the speed limit despite knowing how I feel about it, the policy is flawed.

Brilliant.

(And before anyone asks: I think Sarah Palin is a douche. I think Abstinence Only education is stupid. I voted for Obama early and often. And I sincerely hope that whatever reason Palin is withdrawing from public life that her family is safe, happy, and loved and continues to be so in the future.)

[Axxon]

I have been forced to conclude from this thread that speed limits are bad public policy.

Despite the fact that I've told my oldest son over and over to drive the speed limit (speed limit only) because he might get a ticket, he's gotten speeding tickets (twice!!) in the year since he's had his license.

If my own kid won't drive the speed limit despite knowing how I feel about it, the policy is flawed.

Brilliant.

No, no, the policy isn't necessarily bad policy. Exclusive adherence to the speed limit as the only solution is flawed. As a choice of many solutions implemented at the same time it's perfectly fine.

[thesloppy]

Is that they reported the child abuse/incest as children or that they reported that as children they had been abused? If it's the former, it says alot about society too. Either way, there's a problem. I'd still like to know the percentage who are on drugs since maybe that's not what drove them to prostitution but it's keeping a lot of them there.

It's probably safe to say nearly all hookers are on drugs. I certainly would be.

[Drake]

No, no, the policy isn't necessarily bad policy. Exclusive adherence to the speed limit as the only solution is flawed. As a choice of many solutions implemented at the same time it's perfectly fine.

Just wait. If our policy standard is "Left to themselves, kids will struggle with it despite what their parents think is a good idea", I'm going after math instruction in HS next. ;)

[Tekneek]

I have been forced to conclude from this thread that speed limits are bad public policy.

Despite the fact that I've told my oldest son over and over to drive the speed limit (speed limit only) because he might get a ticket, he's gotten speeding tickets (twice!!) in the year since he's had his license.

Not an apples to apples comparison, is it?

[Axxon]

Not an apples to apples comparison, is it?

That's right. We've demonstrated that abstinence is the only policy in the world in it's specific category. At least, you have resisited every example given so far.

[larrymcg421]

Once again, you say abstinence, which isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about abstinence only.

A more apt comparison would be if you tell your children not to speed, but don't tell them about wearing a seatbelt, because that will just encourage them to speed. Then they get into an accident.

[thesloppy]

This thread (and my actions within) highlights my biggest problem with what American politics has become (or reallly has always been). The vast majority of voters on both sides are leveraging their votes and their political voice against the politics/people they don't like, rather than for the politics/people they like. As a result, we end up with lame watered-down policies and politicians, all manicured and manufactured to piss off the least amount of people possible, rather than actaully attracting voters with positive and pro-active thought/actions. American politics has come completely RE-active, moving and changing only in reaction to problem and catastrophe, rather than reaching towards new solutions and ideas, and political discourse has devolved inot various versions of point-the-finger, and "no, YOU guys suck!". Politics of the lowest common denominator, it's FAAAAANtastic!

[Axxon]

Once again, you say abstinence, which isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about abstinence only.

A more apt comparison would be if you tell your children not to speed, but don't tell them about wearing a seatbelt, because that will just encourage them to speed. Then they get into an accident.

Ok, now telling kids to abstain will just encourage them to not abstain. I don't think ever that any parent can win if that's the actual issue. Telling me not to speed but telling me what to do to be safe when I do speed would convince me to speed than educating me on the dangers of speeding.

[Tekneek]

That's right. We've demonstrated that abstinence is the only policy in the world in it's specific category. At least, you have resisited every example given so far.

Explain to me what makes it an apples-to-apples comparison then, because it doesn't seem the same. Are speed limits really only a method to avoid speeding tickets? There surely must be another reason they were established, another reason they were created.

[Axxon]

This thread (and my actions within) highlights my biggest problem with what American politics has become (or reallly has always been). The vast majority of voters on both sides are leveraging their votes and their political voice against the politics/people they don't like, rather than for the politics/people they like. As a result, we end up with lame watered-down policies and politicians, all manicured and manufactured to piss off the least amount of people possible, rather than actaully attracting voters with positive and pro-active thought/actions. American politics has come completely RE-active, moving and changing only in reaction to problem and catastrophe, rather than reaching towards new solutions and ideas, and political discourse has devolved inot various versions of point-the-finger, and "no, YOU guys suck!". Politics of the lowest common denominator, it's FAAAAANtastic!

Agreed I think. That's why it was pretty refreshing defending someone who I don't agree with or like. Reminded me she was human and that condition actually drove my symapthy just like the fact that her family is human can jsut as easily be used as an argument against her position.

[Axxon]

Explain to me what makes it an apples-to-apples comparison then, because it doesn't seem the same. Are speed limits really only a method to avoid speeding tickets? There surely must be another reason they were established, another reason they were created.

Honestly it might be easier to give me an example of apples to apples. It's whats missing here. I'm not getting what you're not seeing. If I could see what you're seeing I might be able to.

Speed limits were set for safety. They do a good job. Sometimes people speed anyway. It doesn't make speed limits a bad idea. The government doesn't have any alternative laws to the speed limit laws. A private citizen can't legally speed.

Abstinence was set up for safety ( or whatever since I'm not really arguing the need for this actually ). It may or may not do a good job. Sometimes kids will fuck anyway. It doesn't make abstinence a bad idea. The government doesn't necessarily have to create several alternatives to abstinence as a policy if they feel as a safety net it does the job reasonably. As far as I know, the government has neither illegalized teaching contraception or alternative crash survival techniques. They just don't necessarily see that this education is needed as a part of public policy that they're going to spend cash on. I know that seat belts are treated this way on a state by state basis but I'm talking the feds.

[larrymcg421]

Speed limits were set for safety. They do a good job. Sometimes people speed anyway.

Which is why people should be taught to wear seatbelts and take other precautionary measures as well.

Abstinence was set up for safety ( or whatever since I'm not really arguing the need for this actually ). It may or may not do a good job. Sometimes kids will fuck anyway. It doesn't make abstinence a bad idea.

No, it doesn't make abstinence a bad idea. It makes abstinence only a bad idea.

[Axxon]

Which is why people should be taught to wear seatbelts and take other precautionary measures as well.



No, it doesn't make abstinence a bad idea. It makes abstinence only a bad idea.


Had no comment on the fact that the government doesn't push seat belts as an alternative to safety? They don't or at least I've never seen them do that or else they wouldn't bother enforcing the seat belt law if you weren't speeding. Both not speeding save lives and wearing a seatb elt saves lives regardless of whether you speed or not.

So is the value of a condom of course and taught as a disease preventative it is perfectly acceptable I'd imagine but as an alternative to the more effective policy doesn't seem like a good decision for an authority figure like the government to be endorsing. Again, that's what I'd imagine a decent counter argument to be. We're straying into debating the issue rather than discussing the sincerity of Palin holding the argument and it's really not my argument.

[Axxon]

dola, to be clear, it sounds like you're saying we should tell kids "don't fuck but if you're going to wear a condom." I don't recall it ever being said by an authority figure "don't speed but if you do, wear a seat belt." It's kinda inconsistent in that way you know?

[thesloppy]

I think there's a pretty fair apples-to-apples comparison in the 'Just Say No' campaign from the '80s. A half-assed government campaign offering an over-simplified unworkable 'answer' to a convoluted, complicated problem, resulting in absolutely nothing other than putting Nancy Reagan on an episode of Diff'rent Strokes.

[larrymcg421]

I think there's a pretty fair apples-to-apples comparison in the 'Just Say No' campaign from the '80s. A half-assed government campaign offering an over-simplified unworkable 'answer' to a convoluted, complicated problem, resulting in absolutely nothing other than putting Nancy Reagan on an episode of Diff'rent Strokes.

Probably the most ironic show for her to have appeared on.

[Axxon]

I think there's a pretty fair apples-to-apples comparison in the 'Just Say No' campaign from the '80s. A half-assed government campaign offering an over-simplified unworkable 'answer' to a convoluted, complicated problem, resulting in absolutely nothing other than putting Nancy Reagan on an episode of Diff'rent Strokes.

That is a pretty fair comparison. Would you say then that a Reagan child either doing or not doing drugs would have been an indictment on Nancy's beliefs about drug use or simply that she believed in a flawed campaign?

[thesloppy]

That is a pretty fair comparison. Would you say then that a Reagan child either doing or not doing drugs would have been an indictment on Nancy's beliefs about drug use or simply that she believed in a flawed campaign?

Well, personally, I took her husband's administration's shipping of tons of cocaine into the country and putting it on the streets of L.A. in order to fund Nicaraguan freedom fighters as an indictment of her beliefs about drug use, family, politics, and humanity in general. I may not believe that she had a hand in, or knowledge of, any of that stuff...but I also don't believe she put anything more than a half-baked thought into the 'just say no' campaign, and was operating it as an exercise in ego first, and anything else was secondary. In fact, the whole 'just say no' iran/contra thing is pretty much the driving force behind my political cynicism, and in this case in particular, because of Palin's similar 'just say no, it's-so-simple' stance on abstinence.

[thesloppy]

This is also where I think there's some disconnect on both sides of the argument.

I don't have a problem when Palin's beliefs simply exist as thoughts in her head, or words on her lips, it's when those beliefs threaten to start sucking up government time and money that they become a problem. If Nancy Reagan's 'Just Say No' was something she just said when given the opportunity, in an interviews or such, it wouldn't have been as entirely laughable as it was, given that we had funneled billions of dollars, man-hours, and uncountable resources into shoving that hollow message down EVERYBODY'S throats.

[Axxon]

Well, personally, I took her husband's administration's shipping of tons of cocaine into the country and putting it on the streets of L.A. in order to fund Nicaraguan freedom fighters as an indictment of her beliefs about drug use, family, politics, and humanity in general. I may not believe that she had a hand in, or knowledge of, any of that stuff...but I also don't believe she put anything more than a half-baked thought into the 'just say no' campaign, and was operating it as an exercise in ego first, and anything else was secondary. In fact, the whole 'just say no' iran/contra thing is pretty much the driving force behind my political cynicism, and in this case in particular, because of Palin's similar 'just say no, it's-so-simple' stance on abstinence.

Again, you indict her beliefs for something you even admit that she may have any knowledge of. Brutal.

[Axxon]

This is also where I think there's some disconnect on both sides of the argument.
... into shoving that hollow message down EVERYBODY'S throats.

True, IMHO there aren't enough prostitutes in the world. ;)

[Marc Vaughan]

Not surprisingly, in many studies, prostitution/promiscuity of the mother has been linked to teen prostitution, but the VAST majority of prostitutes (over 90%) were abused by their parents.

Could you post links to these studies please - I've always been interested in Sociology and in the studies I've read about in the UK & Europe the causes have been much more heavily biased by an inabilit to support themesleves through normal means (inability to gain sufficient income from normal sources). This is often at least caused by addiction problems (both drink and drugs) in the prostitute his/herself (either by making them too unreliable to hold down a normal job or requiring excessive income to manage the lifestyle wanted comparative to their earning skills).

A quote from "GORDON MARSHALL. "prostitution, sociological studies of":
Sociological studies of prostitutes show that their motivation is mainly economic and it seems likely that the number of prostitutes increases when there are fewer other job opportunities for women. International movements of prostitutes are nearly always from poor countries to richer ones. There are few studies of clients, though a Norwegian study found that while most of them are ‘Mr Average’, there are a number of single men who have difficulties relating to women who go to prostitutes quite frequently.

[thesloppy]

Again, you indict her beliefs for something you even admit that she may have any knowledge of. Brutal.

Well, here's our disconnect again. I didn't believe those were her beliefs in the first place, or at least not what I would consider 'driving' beliefs. I thought they were words she used to drive her government program. I don't consider 'Just Say No' to even constitute a belief, anymore than 'Now You're Eating America's Favorite Pizza!', it's a slogan. What belief of Nancy's does that represent, that children shouldn't do drugs? I certainly don't question her belief in that, I do question whether it was the primary influence behind the 'Just Say No' campaign, which I cynically imagine was simply an answer to 'doing something politically' as had proper first-ladies before her, and just about any 'cause' would have done.

I don't question that Nancy doesn't want kids to do drugs any more than you or I don't want kids to do drugs, but on the other hand, I think that's a pretty easy belief to stand behind, and even if you might not feel comfortable judging her beliefs, we CAN now judge the results of those beliefs, and they were horrible. Not only horrible at preventing the spread of drug abuse among anyone, adult or teen, but horrible at even presenting what the solution was beyond 'Just Saying No'. I also believe that might be as far as Nancy's beliefs extended. Those beliefs may not have been 'wrong' technically, but so woefully incomplete and uninformed, as to be useless and worthless, as they are essentially beliefs about a reality that does not exist, and I don't think an incomplete belief hoisted on the whole of America is defensible, regardless of the veracity of those beliefs.

Also, for the record, I have NEVER had a problem judging people.

[thesloppy]

Could you post links to these studies please - I've always been interested in Sociology and in the studies I've read about in the UK & Europe the causes have been much more heavily biased by an inabilit to support themesleves through normal means (inability to gain sufficient income from normal sources). This is often at least caused by addiction problems (both drink and drugs) in the prostitute his/herself (either by making them too unreliable to hold down a normal job or requiring excessive income to manage the lifestyle wanted comparative to their earning skills).


Admittedly, most of the claims I found are anecdotal, or referring second-hand to other studies. The most concrete I found was a study I linked to earlier, that many publications point to, apparently from The Council for Prostitution Alternatives, Portland, Oregon Annual Report in 1991 (if it's annual, how come I'm only finding this one?).

http://www.rapeis.org/activism/prostitution/prostitutionfacts.html

FTR, I'm not trying to be the hooker expert in this thread! I certainly wouldn't think that abuse is the ONLY problem that contributes towards that lifestyle. As far as sociological triggers go, drug dealers, prostitutes, pimps, and lots of the ghetto-trades share a lot of the same stuff, absense of local legit businesses, habitual generational drug abuse, illegal work pays leagues better than the local legal jobs, absent parents, can't afford to relocate, etc.

[DaddyTorgo]

NBC may be legitimate media, but SNL is a comedy show. If your claim that the media is after her family is based on comedians, you've got a very weak point.

catching up, but this was my reaction as well.

show me where the NY Times or the Washington Post or George Stephanopolous ripped on her handicapped kid and then you have a case

[RainMaker]

For all this "media attacking her family" crap, I just don't see it. Where are the reputable media sources trashing her family? Many reported on her daughter being pregnant, but I didn't see anything that would be constituted as an attack. Maybe a pundit or two took a swipe, but it's still not the norm.

I saw some shitty stuff on blogs, but that's just blogs. You can find that stuff for just about every politician. The whining about the media just comes across to me as someone who has thin skin and is clearly not strong enough to handle higher office.

[Drake]

You want apples to apples?

How about this? They were teaching us about condoms in my high school 25 years ago.

Girls still managed to get pregnant.

Here's my point: if you're going to make policy decisions based solely on whether or not teenagers can fuck up even the best intentions, then all of your policies are going to fail. Given the opportunity, teenagers will fuck up. The policy isn't flawed *because* teenagers fuck up. Teenagers are just doing what teenagers have always done.

The really stupid part is that I agree with you completely about Abstinence Only being a fraud. Hell, I agreed with you in high school.

It just seems to me that your logic for justifying the position is flawed.

[Celeval]

Which reveals why Sarah Palin's view, trying to tell the rest of us that abstinence is the only solution for the rest of society, is a failure. It didn't even stick with her own daughter, who presumably she would have the most influence upon.

Actually, I don't think it means anything about the effectiveness of her view; just the effectiveness of her teaching it. The fact that Sarah Palin couldn't get her daughter to listen to her doesn't make abstinence any more or less the answer.