Le Tour - 2009 Edition

[DaddyTorgo]

I originally got into watching this because my hetero-lifemate used to be/is a bigtime cyclist and Tour watcher, but I enjoy watching it on its own now. Although sometimes the Versus coverage can be interminable, but that's why DVR is great for watching it.

Great win for Cavendish on Stage 2 today in the sprint. Picture-perfect setup by Team Columbia, that's for sure!

*bless you DVR for letting me recordificate this everyday*

[thealmighty]

If there were no DVR I don't think I could take watching this now (I've been watching Le Tour for 20 years so I know the pain without it).

I think if Lance were to finish in the top 10 that would be a remarkable feat, though I'm sure he'd be pissed as hell.

[Sgran]

yesterday was a great, underrated sports day with the tour and Wimbledon at the same time.

The tour climbing stages are some of the best TV you can find. People pushing their limits with cuts of French towns and countryside. Great stuff.

[DaddyTorgo]

i enjoy the scenic cuts away to the countryside and the wide-angle shots, that was what originally kept me watching, but now as i've watched i've become a much more aware cycling fan and can watch for the sport of it.

so frankly, kudos to the TV-coverage for teaching as well as entertaining.

[terpkristin]

Been watching when I can. I have DVR but I get way too backlogged, so I'm catching the "recap" shows in the evenings on VS.

I'd like Lance to do well, but I'm really not cheering for anybody this year. I want to see good racing. One year I'm going to go to France to check it out.

/tk

[DaddyTorgo]

jeezus - if Armstrong was on Columbia he'd have another Tour de France for sure...they are an AMAZING team. It's early, but they've been perfect so far.

[WheelsVT]

Astana is arguably one of the best teams ever (http://redkiteprayer.com/?p=128). But for Armstrong to get complete team leader status Contador would have to falter in the mountains which I don't see happening... if Armstrong could beat him in the TTs that may work. The intra-squad dynamic will be interesting to watch.

Columbia is looking the strongest b/c they have the best leadout train in the world for the best sprinter in the world. They were totally committed to the stage win the past 2 days for Cav. In terms of GC potential I think Saxo Bank may be the best positioned, but they're using some stength to keep Fabian in yellow this week. I think that will come back to hurt them later.

[WheelsVT]

i enjoy the scenic cuts away to the countryside and the wide-angle shots

Seeing the aqueducts in HD really impressed me yesterday. I had no idea how big they were! The scenic shots are that much more impressive now that they are so vivid.

[DaddyTorgo]

Astana is arguably one of the best teams ever (http://redkiteprayer.com/?p=128). But for Armstrong to get complete team leader status Contador would have to falter in the mountains which I don't see happening... if Armstrong could beat him in the TTs that may work. The intra-squad dynamic will be interesting to watch.

Columbia is looking the strongest b/c they have the best leadout train in the world for the best sprinter in the world. They were totally committed to the stage win the past 2 days for Cav. In terms of GC potential I think Saxo Bank may be the best positioned, but they're using some stength to keep Fabian in yellow this week. I think that will come back to hurt them later.

Fair enough - I hadn't done my pre-race looking into things (it always sneaks up on me) so I wasn't aware of the entire team's composition. The intra-squad dynamic there is going to be...amusing/interesting. Especially in light of yesterday where Contador whiffed on joining the breakaway group and it cost him 40 seconds.

You're right about Columbia of course, and obviously it's skewed by the composition of the first couple stages, but their leadout work (along with their attitude yesterday in saying "well if nobody else is going to go after the pacemakers and bring them back to the pack then f*ck you all, we will ourselves" has been flawless. Obviously helps to have a sprinter who can finish, but you can't ask for more from them.

[WheelsVT]

I got a big kick out of it too. George Hincapie and the Columbia guys punished the other sprinter's teams and were very aware of the course conditions to put on a great show of strength. Very exciting for what looked to be "just another flat stage".

[WheelsVT]

For those wanting some links to video:
2009 Tour de France Live Video, TV, Route, Results, Photos, Teams, Preview, and Latest Updates (http://www.steephill.tv/tour-de-france/#live)

And I like to follow cyclingnews' text live updates:
http://live.cyclingnews.com/1.html

[DaddyTorgo]

I got a big kick out of it too. George Hincapie and the Columbia guys punished the other sprinter's teams and were very aware of the course conditions to put on a great show of strength. Very exciting for what looked to be "just another flat stage".

yeah. i'd been consciously avoiding spoilers all day so it was quite the unexpected thrill to watch them just all-of-a-sudden decide to pull away and throw things into another gear.

[DaddyTorgo]

damn - hell of a TTT by Astana today!

4 of the top 5 are Astana riders now, and Armstrong is 0.22 seconds behind Cancellara.

Going to be interesting to see how Contador and Armstrong go in the mountain stages here and who the team chooses to put forward.

[WheelsVT]

Very tough stage. Crazy roads to be riding TT bikes on. The contenders definitely lost time yesterday.

Today's stage...
Very happy for Voekler getting a stage win for all the French fans out there. Big happening today was with Gesink loosing 9 minutes. That's one outside GC hope that is now out of it. He'll have to focus on the climber's jersey... if he starts tomorrow.

[WheelsVT]

Stage 7 to Andorre
Astana really whipped up the pace and dropped Cancellara. Some thought he would hang on, but I had my doubts. Then Contador counter-attacks and drills it to the finish putting 20s on the lead group. That, unfortunately for us LA supporters, means that he leapfrogs over Lance and firmly establishes himself as the team leader and overall man to beat. I suppose that is his rightful place, but I'll continue to hope. Lance actually looked a little weak on the early part of the climb - grimacing and such. But he held all the contenders and I'm sure he'll improve as the tour moves on. The only way he'll reverse his position on the team as 2nd leader is if Contador has a very bad day or he whips him in a TT.

[DaddyTorgo]

I really want to buy Cyanide's PCM 2009 game. Apparently you can DL and play without Starforce and it's like the only cycling management game. but it's a good like $40-somethin bucks and there's no demo...

[Glengoyne]

There used to be a demo...for the cycling manager. I bought a few years back. I enjoyed it...but I really sucked.

[DaddyTorgo]

hehe. i feel like that's what'd happen with me - i'd enjoy it but suck at it. lol

[whomario]

for all you watching for the scenery : Today is going to be epic. I travelled arround that area by bike and train a couple years back after i was done with school and regularly prolongued my stops along the road to the point that i had to cut a couple stops elsewhere ... Weather is supposed to be great, too. Too bad it was rainy when they got to Barcelona :(

For the Race : I have a hard time really watching for the sport with all the confirmed doping cases the last couple of years. Actually was an avid follower of the sport year round (also bike a lot myself) but the last 2 years lost track and now hardly can tell what to expect with all the changes (Is it just me or has literally every team changed it´s name the last 2 years ?) .
If Armstrong wins it it will be a strange day for the sport. As much as i respect him for him coming back from cancer (actually have his first book at home and really read it religiously), but the doping accusations have a good deal of truth to it as far as i know ...
And sitting out that long, then coming back and win the hardest race (one of the toughest sporting events, period) isn´t would be deemed unrealistic at the least in any video game ;)

for the Cyanide game : I loved the old versions, played Cyling Manager 3 for hours without stops. Then my Computer couldn´t take the requirements anymore and i haven´t started again ...

[WheelsVT]

I have last year's version, but am tempted to get this year's. Last year I loved the in-race play, but felt the career mode ran too slowly or was too complex. Although what should I expect when it's not like other sports with a set league schedule. My fav in game moment was when I got one of the Garmin guys the Australian national RR jersey with a daring solo escape over a short climb 10k from the finish after wearing down the bunch with another rider in a day-long break that was caught with 20k to go. For the rest of the season that guy's mood was always "over the moon"

[DaddyTorgo]

i think my system specs should be able to handle it - i see there's some issues with GeForce cards, but I mean I have a GeForce Go 7600 so I think I'm okay

[DaddyTorgo]

FYI I just found a demo for PCM 08 online that you can DL to try out. Apparently the graphics requirements are the same as 2009 so it should run and should let people know if they want to mess with it.

WorthPlaying :: Pro Cycling Manager: Tour De France 2008 (http://www.worthdownloading.com/game.php?gid=3372)

[DaddyTorgo]

well i'm not THAT horrible. just got 15th overall in a mountain-stage (without reading the manual at all) after 6-7 tries to work on figuring it out.

[DaddyTorgo]

So, my take on the Cyanide game, after messing around with it yesterday all afternoon: inconclusive.

I never managed to better my 15th place finish (given that was with Sanchez from the 2008 Euskatel team, so we're not exactly talking a world-beater). Never managed to replicate anything close to it either.

I'm not sure I (or most people for that matter) understand how to effectively and easily move riders. There's a lot of griping on some of the forums about how the "hold position" button results in your riders slipping through to the back of the peleton on climbs rather than you know...holding their position. And the "short relay" button seems to be buggered as well.

I will prolly hold off and see how the patching addresses any of these, or whether somebody does a nice writeup for dummies.

[WheelsVT]

When you set "hold" you have to set the effort slider as well. They will hold their position as long as the effort required does not go over the slider setting. So on the key mountain I'd slide it all the way to 99 and hit hold. Of course you run the risk of blowing up that way so 90 or so is a better idea... now that I think about it, there's a tutorial in the full version that walks you through a few things.

[WheelsVT]

The weekend's mountain stages had the climbs so far from the finish. I agree with Paul and Phil that the organizers were probably thinking about keeping the race close until the last week while designing stages that will allow other teams and racers to be showcased. It's been fun watching it either way.

How about Schleck having the mechanical outside the 3km limit? Jens Voight (one of my favorite riders) did a great job of getting him back on. Jens was in a break, dropped on the climb, carried water bottles, then pulled Andy back. Awesome.

[DaddyTorgo]

When you set "hold" you have to set the effort slider as well. They will hold their position as long as the effort required does not go over the slider setting. So on the key mountain I'd slide it all the way to 99 and hit hold. Of course you run the risk of blowing up that way so 90 or so is a better idea... now that I think about it, there's a tutorial in the full version that walks you through a few things.

there's a tutorial in the demo that walks you through like 3 things - do you recall if the manual in the full version is any good, or is it junk?

i'd really love to buy this game, but i'll need a manual to walk me through the controls and basically help me figure out how to win.

for instance - it was only at the end of the night last night that i discovered that setting the effort to 99 and hitting "hold" wouldn't burn out their green bars too fast...i had just assumed that it would.

or that i needed to amp up the effort on attacks.

so what's standard strategy...assume position in the peleton with 99 effort and hit "hold" and then use the "attack" or "effort slider" buttons ("move to dot" as the forum-folk call it) in order to move up?

and my guys always run out of water, i'm still not sure how to send someone back for water and then have them relay the water up to the team...is that "infinite relay?"

[DaddyTorgo]

The weekend's mountain stages had the climbs so far from the finish. I agree with Paul and Phil that the organizers were probably thinking about keeping the race close until the last week while designing stages that will allow other teams and racers to be showcased. It's been fun watching it either way.

How about Schleck having the mechanical outside the 3km limit? Jens Voight (one of my favorite riders) did a great job of getting him back on. Jens was in a break, dropped on the climb, carried water bottles, then pulled Andy back. Awesome.

they pulled Andy back into it so fast, i was amazed. it was like...in the blink of an eye.

was nice to see the two guys who were in the breakaway all day hold on for the 1-2 (particularly the french guy in first). i always feel like those guys "deserve it" for doing so much of the work.

[whomario]

that´s a part i really enjoy about cycling, that obvious and immediate effect of teamwork. It really is that much of a difference between riding together and riding alone.
As for Schleck/Voigt : They were inside the car-line luckily, that is a major helper to get back to the peloton. Still impressive though obviously. And yeah, Voigt is one of the most impressive flat-surface riders and just like a locomotive in those situations.

[DaddyTorgo]

ugh - horrible exchange rates mean the game is like $50 right now

[scooter]

ugh - horrible exchange rates mean the game is like $50 right now

Not to take this thread too far off topic, but Steam has the game for $35.99 right now. That's a lot better than $50. I haven't bought anything on Steam, but plenty of others seem to think it is great.

As for the tour, I'm really looking forward to the Alps. I was disappointed the tour "wasted" the Col d' Aspin and the Col du Tourmalet in the middle of stages. I know they don't want to blow the race apart in the first week, but a little drama would be nice.

[WheelsVT]

there's a tutorial in the demo that walks you through like 3 things - do you recall if the manual in the full version is any good, or is it junk?

i'd really love to buy this game, but i'll need a manual to walk me through the controls and basically help me figure out how to win.

for instance - it was only at the end of the night last night that i discovered that setting the effort to 99 and hitting "hold" wouldn't burn out their green bars too fast...i had just assumed that it would.

or that i needed to amp up the effort on attacks.

so what's standard strategy...assume position in the peleton with 99 effort and hit "hold" and then use the "attack" or "effort slider" buttons ("move to dot" as the forum-folk call it) in order to move up?

and my guys always run out of water, i'm still not sure how to send someone back for water and then have them relay the water up to the team...is that "infinite relay?"

I played the Milan-San Remo in the full (2007) version that I own last night. Forgot to look for a manual though. I'll look tonight.

I got Brajevic in a 10man break that stayed away (up to 17min at one point). He ran out of energy 20k from the finish and fell off the back so I sent 3 other Discovery boys to the front to try and catch the break but it was too late. I slowed my guys on the front and attacked with Hincapie at 10k to go. He passed a crawling Brajevic at 300m, and held off the field for 10th. That was fun.

Setting the slider and hold order means that the rider will hold their position as long as it doesn't require more effort than the slider setting. So if it could be set at 99 but if it only uses 60 then he uses 60. I usually have guys ride at effort to move up in the pack to avoid the splits and then set them to hold there until I need them. There's always an early move so I like to send a half-way decent guy to the very front to wait for it and then attack with them so other teams work while my guys get a free ride.

The relay orders tell them how to paceline. Short relay = standard pull, Infinite relay = pull until you're passed?, Effort = Go at that effort.

there is no way to get more water bottles. Once they're gone your guy bonks. That's why it's key to set the slider as low as possible and still make it to the end. For example, when I noticed Brajevic's energy running out too fast I switched him from "short relay" to hold @ 65 so he stopped pulling and sat on the back of the break. Unfortunately, when a few in the group attacked he fell off the wheel, and I didn't ramp up his effort fast enough to hold it. I tried to have him chase back on by ordering him to go at effort 99 but he blew up just before catching them on the final climb and rolled home.

I've never really been able to work a sprint lead-out, or win the Tour, but I seem to usually be able to get my leader to finish near the front consistently with a lucky break working sometimes. I see the new version has "energy gels" and probably has some better gameplay tweaks.

[WheelsVT]

Not to take this thread too far off topic, but Steam has the game for $35.99 right now. That's a lot better than $50. I haven't bought anything on Steam, but plenty of others seem to think it is great.

As for the tour, I'm really looking forward to the Alps. I was disappointed the tour "wasted" the Col d' Aspin and the Col du Tourmalet in the middle of stages. I know they don't want to blow the race apart in the first week, but a little drama would be nice.

Yep, sorry. Should stay on topic... although it seems just a few of us watching this one. ;)

Agree about wasting the climbs in terms of GC drama, but it made for good racing that gave the non-GC teams a chance to make something happen for their sponsors. Good races... can't wait for the main event!

[DaddyTorgo]

got the didn't get to watch yesterday's stage so i'll have plenty to watch tonight.

picked up the game last night too. as if i didn't have enough games to occupy my free time

[BishopMVP]

Been watching, don't have much unique to add. Everyone's trying to focus on Contador/Lance and I was curious if one was a better time trialer/if there is a time trial left? Could that be the difference or is going to be an attack in the Alps that decides it? Definitely disappointing that the last 2 climbs were not near the end after Contador's move the first day in the Pyrenees.

Other tangentially related question for French/European people. Do they specifically resurface the routes the Tour riders are competing on or do they really have no potholes like that on most roads? I know German roads and the Autobahn in particular were better that US roads because they were designed with thicker asphalt to support tanks, but the difference between the French roads and the pothole filled ones here is quite stark. Tour de Massachusetts would certainly have a few more random crashes in it.

[DaddyTorgo]

*le sigh* i got to watch like half of yesterday's stage and none of today's before i was rudely interrupted.

[WheelsVT]

Been watching, don't have much unique to add. Everyone's trying to focus on Contador/Lance and I was curious if one was a better time trialer/if there is a time trial left? Could that be the difference or is going to be an attack in the Alps that decides it? Definitely disappointing that the last 2 climbs were not near the end after Contador's move the first day in the Pyrenees.

Other tangentially related question for French/European people. Do they specifically resurface the routes the Tour riders are competing on or do they really have no potholes like that on most roads? I know German roads and the Autobahn in particular were better that US roads because they were designed with thicker asphalt to support tanks, but the difference between the French roads and the pothole filled ones here is quite stark. Tour de Massachusetts would certainly have a few more random crashes in it.

They both are good time trialists although I think Lance may be better at the longer distances or courses without "punchy" climbs like stage 1. Either way it'd be a close race. Team tactics dictate that you support the guy with the best time. Right now with it so close they're both protected. Stages 15-17 are mountain stages that will affect the time difference between them and who works for who. The TT on stage 18 will be the showdown and last chance for the roles to reverse before the "queen stage" up Ventoux where the whole race will be decided.

I think the other contenders at this point are just racing for a podium position... there may be only one left since Astana could have 2 of them with LA and Contador. Wiggins and Vandevelde from Garmin are the underdogs I'll pull for, and they're in good position right now. Andy Schleck of CSC is promising, but he's still young and just lost a climber (Arveson) due to a crash yesterday which really hurts when going up against Astana. Evans and Sastre are now outside chances after loosing so much time in the TTT.

[Edit] All that changes if Lance or Contador cracks as some point or something unforeseeable happens.

I know that they do resurface some of the mountain passes for the tour, but I'd be surprised if they did it for every stage... perhaps it's up to the host cities to prepare the area?

[WheelsVT]

picked up the game last night too. as if i didn't have enough games to occupy my free time

OT: Last night I ran the Paris-Roubaix with Discovery and wouldn't you know I got George Hincapie the win! Best race I've ever done in the game.

[WheelsVT]

Have to say that my dark horse pick is Nibali from Liquigas.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I know German roads and the Autobahn in particular were better that US roads because they were designed with thicker asphalt to support tanks..........

Actually, that's not the main reason. Any part of the Autobahn showing significant cracks is immediately taken out and the entire slab of concrete is replaced between the expansion joints. They don't even let it get to the point where it becomes a pothole. Of course, they do that because a car going 200 MPH could pretty easily wreck even on the smallest of uneven cracks or *gasp* a pothole.

[kmbgolf]

i was wondering how many tuitorials they have in 09...because i just tried the 08 demo they had three tutorials but me being such a NEWB I AM STILL CLUELESS

[DaddyTorgo]

kmb - i have not seen any tutorials in 2009 strangely enough. Maybe haven't looked in the right place. The manual is helpful...I'm still losing with my poorer riders as I try to learn how to finish the race properly (guys ahead going into the sprint with good energy left but sprinting too soon and being caught from behind and finishing 11th/12th overall). But that's not too bad considering it was my "B" team and my strongest rider was not that good, and definately wasn't a sprinter.

I will make a thread for the game tonight I suppose.

I did manage to place 5th in the Team Time Trial on my first shot with my "A" team, so that's something.

[DaddyTorgo]

OT: Last night I ran the Paris-Roubaix with Discovery and wouldn't you know I got George Hincapie the win! Best race I've ever done in the game.

Hincapie laid a whooping on my "B" team in the Tour of Australia, because I screwed up the sprint at the end. Still got 2 guys in the Top 15. One was my climber (not bad for a flat course) and the other was a guy who's like a 70 overall.

I've cracked the top 10 I think...twice in my first 10 races. But I'm learning. I have learned to hold back and not try to pull back the breakaway on my own but to let the peleton close with them and then break of the peleton with like under 10k left and plenty of energy. I just can't seem to hold anybody off in a sprint...maybe i should just try attacking the finish or "ride to effort 99".

and fyi wheels - at least in 99 you can re-food your guys. You just click on one guy in the same "group" (breakaway/peleton/whatever) and he drops back to the car and then brings it forward to everyone.

I have a shitty Chinese rider who's a 50-overall and cost me 3k just for that purpose. He's my water-bitch.

[WheelsVT]

and fyi wheels - at least in 99 you can re-food your guys. You just click on one guy in the same "group" (breakaway/peleton/whatever) and he drops back to the car and then brings it forward to everyone.

I have a shitty Chinese rider who's a 50-overall and cost me 3k just for that purpose. He's my water-bitch.

Given that we're in a lull of flat stages this off topic discussion is just as interesting as 90% of the past 2 stages. Hearing that you can do the waterboy thing is great. I'll have to get the new version. How is the career mode? Does it sim pretty fast and are negotiations etc pretty straight forward?

TdF: Cav and his leadout are tops (go Hicapie), and Farrar would have had him yesterday if he didn't have to go all the way around Hushovd on the left while the road turned right.

Today's course looks destined for a breakaway I think but time will tell.

[DaddyTorgo]

Given that we're in a lull of flat stages this off topic discussion is just as interesting as 90% of the past 2 stages. Hearing that you can do the waterboy thing is great. I'll have to get the new version. How is the career mode? Does it sim pretty fast and are negotiations etc pretty straight forward?

TdF: Cav and his leadout are tops (go Hicapie), and Farrar would have had him yesterday if he didn't have to go all the way around Hushovd on the left while the road turned right.

Today's course looks destined for a breakaway I think but time will tell.

I suppose that's true. I made a thread for the game yesterday anyways though.

I haven't gotten deep enough into my career to have to deal with negotiations. From what I saw on the boards though people were saying that the career mode is in some sense less-robust than in 2008, in terms of bidding for riders and such. But I haven't gotten there to be able to tell yet, and I didn't play 08 to know. You can prolly find discussion on the boards about that though - either the official ones or the ones at pcmdaily.net (or .com or whatever it is...pcm daily is the site)

As I mentioned in the other thread, I brought Cancellara to victory in the Tour of Qatar last night. Valverde should have had second but I messed up on a finish with him where he would have won the stage and got the necessary time because I had him and Zabriskie pull away from the breakaway too far out. I discovered that on those sprint stages if you want to win with a non-sprinter you should absolutely not try to sprint with the sprinters but should instead pull away somewhere around 10-8k at effort 99 and build yourself a gap that they can't close. Unfortunately I had done too much work with Valverde or pulled away a hair too early or too late and got caught in that one. So he ended up 3rd in the overall standings.

Creating a team works like this - you select your "asset level" basically (higher assets = less chance of scouting new young riders and higher expectations).

My first team I started "Team John Hancock" I selected the maximum asset level. My team looks like this: Cancellara, Valverde, Kim Kirchen, Theo Bos, Domenico Pozzovivo, David Zabriskie, Blake Caldwell, and a bunch of young scrubs (my waterboys and rabbits).

[whomario]

Hey guys, today could be a fun stage with great scenery again. Route is going through the Vosges Mountains near the german border of France. It´s an up and down stage. No big climbs but some decent ones with the last summit 20 KM from the finish line.
Stage for attackers.

[terpkristin]

Levi Leipheimer is out, broken wrist.

/tk

[DaddyTorgo]

d'oh. there's a hit

[WheelsVT]

Shoot. I inadvertently heard the news about Levi when looking to see what the weather would be like for today's stage. At least I don't know anything about today yet. I'm avoiding all spoilers until I can watch it tonight.

New thread rule- if talking about the events of the current day use the spoiler tag so DT and others that don't watch till later don't have their 3hrs of TV watching spoiled. :) Shall we say spoiler free discussion of the current day can begin after 11pm since that's when the prime time coverage ends?

[DaddyTorgo]

wouldn't that make us essentially a day behind in the discussion?

i suppose that's fine though. we can still have spoilery discussion of today on today

3hrs of tv watching? with the dvr once i skip all the blabber and ignore the post-finish half hour it's maybe...45 mins to an hour.

[WheelsVT]

wouldn't that make us essentially a day behind in the discussion?

i suppose that's fine though. we can still have spoilery discussion of today on today

3hrs of tv watching? with the dvr once i skip all the blabber and ignore the post-finish half hour it's maybe...45 mins to an hour.
I try to forward but end up watch most of the coverage. I can't get enough of the behind the scene and side stories from Bob/Phil/Paul. It's also cool when Vaughters joins in and discusses the Garmin perspective too.

the rule: I guess it doesn't really matter to me. Either way I'll watch it. :popcorn:
So ax the thread rule. I'll just not read if I don't want to know just yet.

Let the climbs begin! I'm sure the other teams are glad to see one of Astana's key lieutenants out of the picture.

[DaddyTorgo]

I try to forward but end up watch most of the coverage. I can't get enough of the behind the scene and side stories from Bob/Phil/Paul. It's also cool when Vaughters joins in and discusses the Garmin perspective too.

the rule: I guess it doesn't really matter to me. Either way I'll watch it. :popcorn:
So ax the thread rule. I'll just not read if I don't want to know just yet.

Let the climbs begin! I'm sure the other teams are glad to see one of Astana's key lieutenants out of the picture.

like i said - i don't mind the thought of spoiler-tagging stuff. but it doesn't really "ruin" the stage to me to know who won at the end, or that somebody fell...the journey matters as much as the result, ya know?

I watch some of the behind the scenes stuff, but some of it can be kind of silly.

I don't know - Bob was saying the other day about how Levi was basically a free-rider on Astana right now. I suppose once they hit the mountains that'd change and he'd be doing more work for the team, but they made it sound like he was in some sense just doing his own thing right now...

[RPI-Fan]

Why spoiler tags? If peopel don't want to be spoiled, just don't read the thread til they've watched???

[DaddyTorgo]

i think the consensus was that i don't care about spoilers.

cycling is as much about the process of getting to the end as it is who won the stage in some sense. it's not going to ruin my day to know the finish, because there are still stories (how close it was, the interplay, etc) to watch for

[AlexB]

Seems like Oscar Freire and Julian Dean were both shot at and hit by airgun pellets in todays stage. Madness.

[PilotMan]

And that's going to be it. Two weeks of boredom ended with 15 minutes of activity and another week of boredom to follow. How in the world is this the best event? Why is cycling exciting, if this is it?

[whomario]

Well, if like 15 out of the best 20 riders get caught on performance enhancers during the last 5 years and get banned or retire, than the level can´t exactly be expected to go up. And then you have the organisers make the course easier and easier every year so that the efforts will seem less suspicious.

In the late 90s it was awesome. Yeah, propably everyone was pumped up but it was fun definitely.

A track rider (Wiggins, multiple world championships and Olympic titles there) finished 3rd on a mountain top finish in his first attempt at going for the GC for crying out loud.

people also need to accept the fact that with a dominating team like Astana no one has a shot at attacking early without a 95% chance of totally blowing up in the process and loose all chances at a good place.

The Team Time Trial is a major pain in the ass for suspense. Seriously, get rid of it allready. There´s enough chance for teamwork over the 3 weeks, no need to basically decide the tour that way. Because when a dominating guy with a dominating team is up front early (Contador) there is essentially no way to attack him.

And Armstrong looked every bit his age and like he had been out of racing for 3 years. Order is restored, thank god for that today. Expect him to go on a big attack though, can´t see him go down quiet

[AlexB]

A track rider (Wiggins, multiple world championships and Olympic titles there) finished 3rd on a mountain top finish in his first attempt at going for the GC for crying out loud.

He's lost around 20lbs specifically for this reason though, and the fact that he was so good on the track suggest he has some ability! And you've got the likes of Evans, Sastre and his team leader Vandervelde getting dropped by him which is no mean feat (although Sastre came back)

I do agree that the course does seem a lot easier this year though - a distinct lack of mountain top finishes.

Main thought on today was that in his first attempt on GC, Bradley showed more aggressive intent (he attacked at one point and made the crossover to Frank Schleck) that I have ever seen from Cadel Evans! (I don't get Evans at all as a serious contender for the yellow jersey: he's good, no doubt, but seems not to have the exposion to attack, only the stamina to follow. So if no-one takes up the chase then he is screwed.)

I reckon Bradley has a shot at 3rd - my gut tells me Andy Schleck will probably edge him out of 2nd on the mountains, and then it's between Lance and Wiggins in the TT for 3rd...

[whomario]

He's lost around 20lbs specifically for this reason though, and the fact that he was so good on the track suggest he has some ability! And you've got the likes of Evans, Sastre and his team leader Vandervelde getting dropped by him which is no mean feat (although Sastre came back)

I do agree that the course does seem a lot easier this year though - a distinct lack of mountain top finishes.



Oh, don´t get me wrong : That´s one hell of a feat and he´s ridden a great race.
But i also know from personal experience that this last mountain yesterday is a rollers-mountain par excellence. It benefits good TT guys and guys with power over guys going/pedalling at a high frequency. Andorra was the same (albeit a bit tougher) and even the Ventoux is not as tough as it´s resumee suggests, especially with it being at the end of a very easy stage beforehand, as long as the weather isn´t 30+ degrees and sun all day.
The commitee seems to think that less deciciveness in the stages would result in more thrill due to lesser gaps between the riders (and would result in less doping discussions). But that´s just not the case, plain and simple.
It all but cancelled out mountain specialists. The few still arround have worked on their TT skills and lost ability on the mountains over the years.

And you can propably start the countdown on doping accusations towards Wiggins, that´s how fucked up the sport is. (not saying he is on sth, just saying that the media will react that way)
Which is the reason why i only watch the Tour and the Vuelta and only in small doses with like maybe 5,6 stages and definitely won´t rearrange my schedule for it anymore... Oh and Paris-Roubaix and the Flandern Tour, they kick ass.

@ PilotMan : Have you seen Paris-Roubaix and Flandern before ? That is Grade A a spectacle :D

[AlexB]

Oh, don´t get me wrong : That´s one hell of a feat and he´s ridden a great race.
But i also know from personal experience that this last mountain yesterday is a rollers-mountain par excellence. It benefits good TT guys and guys with power over guys going/pedalling at a high frequency. Andorra was the same (albeit a bit tougher) and even the Ventoux is not as tough as it´s resumee suggests, especially with it being at the end of a very easy stage beforehand, as long as the weather isn´t 30+ degrees and sun all day.
The commitee seems to think that less deciciveness in the stages would result in more thrill due to lesser gaps between the riders (and would result in less doping discussions). But that´s just not the case, plain and simple.
It all but cancelled out mountain specialists. The few still arround have worked on their TT skills and lost ability on the mountains over the years.

And you can propably start the countdown on doping accusations towards Wiggins, that´s how fucked up the sport is. (not saying he is on sth, just saying that the media will react that way)
Which is the reason why i only watch the Tour and the Vuelta and only in small doses with like maybe 5,6 stages and definitely won´t rearrange my schedule for it anymore... Oh and Paris-Roubaix and the Flandern Tour, they kick ass.

@ PilotMan : Have you seen Paris-Roubaix and Flandern before ? That is Grade A a spectacle :D

To be fair the thought had crossed my mind - I don't think he's the type of chap who would do that, but you never can tell (I wouldn't have thought it of David Millar either). I pray his metamorphosis is purely truly down to ability and hard work...

[DaddyTorgo]

wow - Armstrong with a HELL of a ride across a big gap there to catch Contador and Kloden at the top of that last climb...that was just...unreal.

If he had that level of ride in him the other day he might even be in yellow right now.

[BishopMVP]

If Lance is feeling that good, would tomorrow be a good chance to try and take it to Contador, or is he really hoping to pick up 2 minutes in the individual TT just before Paris (or hope Contador falls/accept 2nd)? It doesn't look like anybody can beat Contador on a mountain finish, but tomorrow's course looks ideal for a change of pace type attack with the undulating terrain.

Hopefully Lance/a Schleck possibly with Jens Voight/Carlos Sastre tries it tomorrow. That 30 minutes today near the end was probably the most exciting racing so far.

[DaddyTorgo]

honestly I think Armstrong is too classy to try to attack Contador, unless Contador just absolutely falls apart somehow. the team aspect comes into it so much there.

Now if somebody like Sastre takes off and Lance is chasing him down and Contador for whatever reason can't close the gap enough okay. but i think the odds of that happening are so "slim to none"

[WheelsVT]

If Lance is feeling that good, would tomorrow be a good chance to try and take it to Contador, or is he really hoping to pick up 2 minutes in the individual TT just before Paris (or hope Contador falls/accept 2nd)? It doesn't look like anybody can beat Contador on a mountain finish, but tomorrow's course looks ideal for a change of pace type attack with the undulating terrain.

Hopefully Lance/a Schleck possibly with Jens Voight/Carlos Sastre tries it tomorrow. That 30 minutes today near the end was probably the most exciting racing so far.

Jens took a very nasty fall at ~50mph yesterday right on his face and shoulder. The only update I've seen since was from Lance's twitter where Frank Schleck said he's ok.

Edit: Update on his condition (http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/article/95591/voigt-recovering-in-grenoble)

[terpkristin]

honestly I think Armstrong is too classy to try to attack Contador, unless Contador just absolutely falls apart somehow. the team aspect comes into it so much there.

Now if somebody like Sastre takes off and Lance is chasing him down and Contador for whatever reason can't close the gap enough okay. but i think the odds of that happening are so "slim to none"

+1

/tk

[scooter]

I watch the Tour live in the morning and I came on here to post about Jens Voigt yesterday, but I didn't want to spoil it for those watching the evening coverage.

I hope he is ok. They are saying fractured right cheekbone and a concussion. When I saw it happen, I thought it would have been much worse (broken hip, arm, collarbone). One of the camera motorcycles almost rode over him! He will definitely be missed by his team and Tour fans.

As far as the Lance ride yesterday, I was thinking at the time that Astana was trying to get a third guy into the Contador group to try to "out-number" the Schleck brothers (Contador & Kloden vs. Frank & Andy --> Contador, Kloden, Armstrong vs. Frank & Andy). But then I remembered that Jens was in the early breakaway and would probably wait for the group to even the odds. It was just a good thing that Lance got up there or the tables may have been reversed. I didn't think that yesterday's stage was a good one for a split in the contenders though (neither is today for that matter).

[BishopMVP]

My mistake on the Jens thing - I saw the fall before posting, just forgot about it.

Heroic ride today by Hushovd, and I guess Contador just needs to avoid crashing from here on out to win.

[WheelsVT]

My mistake on the Jens thing - I saw the fall before posting, just forgot about it.

Heroic ride today by Hushovd, and I guess Contador just needs to avoid crashing from here on out to win.

Hushovd really showed everyone why he deserves the green jersey, and got the aggressive rider award for the day. Watching his descents was great. I heard during yesterday's coverage that everyone voted Hushovd as the best descender of the peleton next to Cancellara. He would need to be out of necessity to regain the lead group for the sprint. When he nearly crashed on a turn I knew someone behind would hit it. Sure enough "crash prone" Menchov didn't disappoint, and then he wrecks again on the slick white lines on the road.

Check Armstrong's tweet about Contador's attack on the final climb. There is no love lost there. During the live coverage they mentioned out the two have barely talked the whole tour. The attack only served to unhinge Kloden which ultimately cost him his GC spot. Contador has tried to play it off by saying he asked Kloden about attacking first and that it was his biggest regret on the day.

[DaddyTorgo]

so Contador is a prick? is that the general consensus?

guess so after his strange attack today that dropped Lance and Kloden in the standings. Douchebag.

[whomario]

what do you mean with strange attack ? He is the team leader and just has no business looking towards his teammates GC standing, Armstrong surely never did so in his prime, did he ?

Plus he´s done next to nothing helping his team captain (and yes, that´s what Contador has been assigned from the beginning) despite claiming to do so. Heck, he got Klöden helping him despite being only the 2nd guy on the team, that´s more than you could expect for him. How many 2nd guys had a strong GC rider helping them before ? Not many.

Seriously, Contador was less than 2 minutes ahead of a couple of very strong TT guys before the start. One flat tire or 2 or a bad day there and his lead is gone.
Plus he´s basically driving against his team coordinator at times it seems, him being Armstrong´s favourite guy and everything ... I mean, he sure doesn´t feel a lot of support in his own team i suppose.

Edit : I actually just noticed that i missed sth last stage while being away a few, when reading a couple reports on it it makes more sense now to accuse him of sth.
But my basic point stays still.
Anyone remember 2004 when he edged out Klöden in the finish despite being in the yellow jersey allready ?

Edit again : I am actually pretty sure that Contador did attack with the intent of dragging Klöden along. Afterall he (Klöden) looked very strong at that stage of the race, think he just hit a wall at the wors time. It´s realistic, too, as those things just happen in cycling, you never know how your body will react to an attack until it happens.
One shouldn´t allways assume the worst.

[whomario]

for anyone thinking they are over doping :

Di Luca Positive For CERA In Giro | Cyclingnews.com (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/di-luca-positive-for-cera-in-giro)

Di Luca was 2nd in that Giro this year

[MIJB#19]

In other news, the Vuelta Espana will be mostly in Spain this year.



Back on topic: Contador and Kloden were clearly discussing before Contador attacked. Sure, in hindside it was a mistake to dump a teammate, but if the idea was to break one of the Schleck bros and to get to the finish together with Kloden, it made some sense. The goal for both teams clearly was to get rid of used-to-be-a-non-climber Wiggins.

[WheelsVT]

I agree that Contador has the short end of the stick. From his perspective he should be the unquestionable leader and this Lance Armstrong character comes back to a team where he has long time relationships with everyone. It seems everyone's been pulling against him, and since we don't speak Spanish and he's not good with the press it's hard to get excited about him or tie into his personal story.

Plus, I have to say that Bob Roll is not giving up on his LA praising EVER. They just keep looking for the positive spin on how he's going to make up time... perhaps to keep the majority of American audiences interested. I'm curious if or how much time he'll gain in the TT today. Perhaps he can step back on the podium. I do think that he may improve next year despite being a year older.

I'm sure the rumored split that almost happened before the Tour when Astana was short on funding will definitely happen after: Contador to a spanish team built around him backed by some F1 racer. Lance starts up a Nike/Livestrong/Trek team and brings Bruyneel and others over with him. Vino comes back and takes over an empty Astana team.

[MIJB#19]

By the way, my comment above wasn't meant as a jab at Wiggins. His performance has been amazing so far. Sure, he already was a world class tim trialist, but at the same time he never finished in, like, the top50 of a mountain stage in any full pro race before.

With the lack of performance from about the entire top10 of last year (aside from Frank Schleck), it's nice to have a surprise or two. Wiggins being the most notable.

[WheelsVT]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/armstrongs-new-american-sponsor-to-be-announced-on-thursday-evening

Looks like I was wrong on the Livestrong-Nike sponsor.

[DaddyTorgo]

yeah, the rah-rah LA thing by Bob Roll is getting very tiresome, but i guess it's what they feel they need to keep the american audience.

[scooter]

Wheels - I have to disagree. Contador has always been the leader of Team Astana. He's got the 21 jersey. The team was set up to support him with some of the strongest riders in cycling. Lance came back and may have "thought" he could win again, but I don't think that was ever the main goal. He talked like he could be a contender (just like Levi did) but I don't think Johan thought he could win.

From Contador's perspective, having Lance on your team is a bit of a blessing and a curse. The curse being that he is going to get all the media attention. The blessing though is that he is going to get all the media attention and most of the attention of the peleton. Until the other riders knew what he was going to do, they had to mark him like a 7-time Tour winner. As a strategist, I think Johan tried to use that to his advantage.

Astana usually has at least one other rider with Contador on these climbs (Kloden). Lance is usually close behind. If Levi were still in the race, he would probably be there with Lance (or take Lance's place of marking the other GC contenders and Lance would be up with Contador and Kloden). They are there to support Contador, but more importantly they are there to win the Tour for their team.

[WheelsVT]

While the team was built around Contador, Lance didn't come back to be a lieutenant. The press certainly played up the tension on the team, but I think it's definitely there. Contador certainly wasn't the unquestioned leader going into the race and it wasn't until Sunday's stage that it was really decided... unless you're saying that he was always the leader and it was a clever move on Johan's part to allow the press to play it up as a team rivalry. Could be true. Then if Lance actually does blow everyone away it looks like Johan planned it that way from the start.

Team tactics of course are involved which is what made this race interesting since you have to support your teammates that are in the lead. Like you said the team goal is a win in Paris.

[WheelsVT]

http://www.teamradioshack.com/getready/

http://twitter.com/teamradioshack

Armstrong's new team for 2010.

[AlexB]

Wiggins should be set for a top 6 finish, but the podium is out of reach now. Just hope his legs still have two more days in them.

After Wednesday I wonder if he's regretting his comments on Tuesday that there was only one Schleck that was any good?

And what was Cadel Evans on about on Tuesday - 'as a professional cyclist' he couldn't discuss the reasons why he was not performing? Very strange.

[whomario]

actually i am pretty sure it is about his team and this is coder for "well, i can´t comment as i am under contract but just look at what the hell has been happening"
A friend of mine who is really into cycling (and visits cycling forums) told me that there´s some deep friction between Evans and his team for a while now which has gone way further in the weaks leading up to the tour and he basically is out there all by himself and isolated and that has taken a huge toll on him mentally. He is not the strongest mentally to begin with and then that ...
For Example his teammanagement apparently refused to organise practice for the Team Time Trial (and if you saw it, that was the train wreck of TTTs they had), his team manager has given Van den Broeck a free pass not to help him and basically do whatever he wants.

They also basically they convinced him to stay with promises that weren´t kept from the teams´s side.

A further quote :

Evans also hinted at discontent within his own team after Monday’s fifteenth stage, which Evans labeled the worst of his Tour de France career.

Asked after the race if he was ill, he said: "No, it's politics ... stress."

While he didn’t elaborate at the time, Evans told McGrory that his pre-race efforts to motivate his team had been unsuccessful.

“I made many suggestions, and voiced many opinions. Not much happened.”

Despite being Silence-Lotto’s team leader, Evans said the direction of the team is out of his control

“When it’s the whole team, I can say my suggestions and voice my opinion, but it’s the team direction and management that have to take the whole team together and take them out of their normal race programs.

“Go do a team time trial training camp or whatever. That I can’t organise”

Evans hints at team disharmony - Breaking News - Fox Sports (http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,20797,25812981-23210,00.html?from=public_rss)


Fact is that Evans is not mentally strong and has a reputation as a moaner and whiner. Then add the fact that his teammanagement is pretty much universally acknowledged as highly incompetent and the squad is weak and you have problem. Then add things like that TTT incident and team order keeping the one capable helper away and you have a disaster.



Armstrong is really looking his age and also seems to suffer from the less-than-perfect preperation (broken collarbone). Looks bulkier than in his prime as well, maybe just didn´t get all that dry-workout-muscles into usable-muscles in time aft6er the 3 years off (hope you get what i mean, it´s just not sth you make up for just like that. If you are out of it 3 years your body changes, besides getting older)
Contador cemented his lead, Cancellara had a terrific TT and the Schlecks did OK (Fänck) to good (Andy) .

The GC now :

<table id="3479" rel="158"><tbody><tr class="alt"><td headers="position" class="count">1</td> <td>Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana</td> <td class="result_column" headers="result">73:15:39</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td headers="position" class="count">2</td> <td>Andy Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank</td> <td class="result_column" headers="result">0:04:11</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="alt"> <td headers="position" class="count">3</td> <td>Lance Armstrong (USA) Astana</td> <td class="result_column" headers="result">0:05:25</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td headers="position" class="count">4</td> <td>Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Garmin - Slipstream</td> <td class="result_column" headers="result">0:05:36</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="alt"> <td headers="position" class="count">5</td> <td>Andreas Klöden (Ger) Astana</td> <td class="result_column" headers="result">0:05:38</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td headers="position" class="count">6</td> <td>Fränk Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank</td> <td class="result_column" headers="result">0:05:59</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="alt"> <td headers="position" class="count">7</td> <td>Vincenzo Nibali (Ita) Liquigas</td> <td class="result_column" headers="result">0:07:15</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td headers="position" class="count">8</td> <td>Christian Vande Velde (USA) Garmin - Slipstream</td> <td class="result_column" headers="result">0:10:08</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="alt"> <td headers="position" class="count">9</td> <td>Mikel Astarloza Chaurreau (Spa) Euskaltel - Euskadi</td> <td class="result_column" headers="result">0:12:38</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td headers="position" class="count">10</td> <td>Christophe Le Mevel (Fra) Française des Jeux</td> <td class="result_column" headers="result">0:12:41</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="alt temp_hide"> <td headers="position" class="count">11</td> <td>Vladimir Karpets (Rus) Team Katusha</td> <td class="result_column" headers="result">0:13:36</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="temp_hide"> <td headers="position" class="count">12</td> <td>Roman Kreuziger (Cze) Liquigas</td> <td class="result_column" headers="result">0:14:08</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="alt temp_hide"> <td headers="position" class="count">13</td> <td>Sandy Casar (Fra) Française des Jeux</td> <td class="result_column" headers="result">0:14:37</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="temp_hide"> <td headers="position" class="count">14</td> <td>Carlos Sastre Candil (Spa) Cervelo Test Team</td> <td class="result_column" headers="result">0:15:26</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="alt temp_hide"> <td headers="position" class="count">15</td> <td>Rinaldo Nocentini (Ita) AG2R La Mondiale</td> <td class="result_column" headers="result">0:15:27</td> <td> </td></tr></tbody></table>

2-6 will be hardly fought. Especially 3-6 are like 30 seconds

[MIJB#19]

I've heard different stuff from around Cadel Evans, really. VanDenBroeck has been told to be not riding for his own GC before the Tour de France, he was supposed to be Evans' side kickin te mountain stages. After Evans dropped back early in Tuesday's stage, there was a chance of plan. VDB was already in the escape and when Evans mentally threw the towel, mid-way that stage VanDenBroeck received a go-ahead on taking his own chances.

Two days later Evans gets bad words from the team owner (the interview was braodcasted on Belgian tv), about him being over the top. Until this Tour Evans has (Contador aside) been the most consistent GC rider in the peloton over the last 4 or so years. And after one bad week he's written off in favor of some, yet to prove he's top10 Tour quality rider that gets good press because he's got the nationality of the team sponsor.

Evans has clearly been the best rider on that team for GC work over the past years, I think it showed a serious lack of respect to write a guy off after what happened the past week. VanDenBroeck has an okay resume, but he's yet to prove he can handle the pressure of being the #1 guy. Evans finished 2nd twice in Le Tour, that should be enough proof he can handle that.

Sure, everybody prefers a winner over an always-second type, but for now Evans is still their best shot at a top5 finish in 2010.

[MIJB#19]

You might want to reconsider your source, whomario, your quoted text is referring to 'monday's fifteenth stage'. The Tour had a rest day on Monday. ;)

[whomario]

everyone of you guys that is allready awake : Get your ass to the TV, as today is Le Mont Ventoux stage and it might kick ass. Just an epic climb of 21 KM with 7,6% gradient. All that in scorching summer sun ...

[Radii]

everyone of you guys that is allready awake : Get your ass to the TV, as today is Le Mont Ventoux stage and it might kick ass. Just an epic climb of 21 KM with 7,6% gradient. All that in scorching summer sun ...

I need a nap just pondering other people going up that hill.

[MIJB#19]

TV is on alright. Flemish/Belgian that is, for the most professional coverage possible. :D

The finish looks like it'll be around 4:30-4:45 pm local time (10:30-10:45 am Eastern). The peloton should start climbing around 9:45 am Eastern.

[JonInMiddleGA]

PARIS -- Spaniard Mikel Astarloza, who finished 11th in the Tour de France, has been provisionally suspended following a positive out-of-competition test for the banned blood booster EPO, the International Cycling Union said on Friday.

"Earlier today, the UCI advised Spanish rider Mikel Astarloza that he has been provisionally suspended," the UCI said.

"The decision to provisionally suspend [Astarloza] was made in response to a report from the WADA accredited laboratory in Madrid indicating an adverse analytical finding of recombinant EPO in a urine sample collected from him at an out-of-competition test on 26 June 2009."

If the B sample is also positive, Astarloza, who rides for the Euskaltel Euskadi team, will face a two-year suspension.

On July 21, Astarloza won the Tour's 16th stage, a mountain stage that crossed the 8,113 foot-high Grand-Saint-Bernard pass on the Swiss-Italian border. "This is the biggest day of my career," he said after the victory.