Could You Live on Minimum Wage?

[RainMaker]

My friend and I were arguing about this over the weekend. I was trying to make a case that it could be done. In fact, my belief is that the whining about this is completely overblown. Now here are the factors in place:

- You can live wherever you want.
- $6.55 an hour and 40 hours a week
- You have health insurance through your company

If I had that, I truly believe I could easily survive. Now life wouldn't be very extravvegent, but I could definitely get by.

[DaddyTorgo]

Hulu - 30 Days: Minimum Wage - Watch the full episode now. (http://www.hulu.com/watch/5287/30-days-minimum-wage)

[DaddyTorgo]

depends on what your definition of "survive" is I suppose, but I sure wouldn't want to after watching that (back when it premiered).

and they were multiple people working multiple jobs, not even 1 job (IIRC).

So my answer is hell no.

[stevew]

Min Wage is 7.25 now, i believe.

Anyways, not a chance, cause you won't get 40 hours a week with almost any "shit" job these days.

-Criteria that might allow you to survive-
Rent of less than 400 dollars a month, with utilities included
Ability to walk to work or good public transportation system


I know back in like 97 I was only making about 1000 a month, and we managed. Although it was far from pretty and prices on everything were a lot lower than they are now.

[Young Drachma]

13,624

as one person? Sure, you could do it. Would it be fun? Not really. With a family of 3 and say, one person not able to work? No way.

If both wage earners were making that? It'd still be far less than a picnic. But it's easier to say you could do it, when the reality is you'll likely never have to.

[DaddyTorgo]

you can do it as long as you never get sick or have to go to the doctor, or etc sure. but once you have an event like that, you're fucked.

[RendeR]

Two words



Fuck


No

[Radii]

A huge part of this depends on how much that group health plan through your company costs. A company paying minimum wage probably isn't doing a whole lot to help you there and your healthcare is very possibly 20% of your pay.

either way though, the answer is that I am 100% sure I could find a way to do it, likely with family support(ie housing) but I would be insanely unhappy about my situation.

The ability to do it long term again comes down to health. One accident, one surgery, and you're ruined, even with healthcare. Best case with a great health plan you have a deductible of $1500, and more likely the type of plan you're getting that you and a minimum wage paying company can afford has a $2500 deductible, ie 2 1/2 months salary.


When I was 21 I could have done this easily. I lived in a house with 3 other people near Ga Tech's campus, my rent was $225/mo, I didn't own a car and walked to the transit station to get anywhere, split utilities 4 ways, and yeah one could live on $12,000/year that way.


Now that I've had better, I'm sure I could do it as a matter of survival, but holy shit it would seem terrible.

[stevew]

If they are giving you free 100% free health care, then it's much more than just a min wage job. I mean, that's probably like 150 dollars a week or more.

[Danny]

My friend and I were arguing about this over the weekend. I was trying to make a case that it could be done. In fact, my belief is that the whining about this is completely overblown. Now here are the factors in place:

- You can live wherever you want.
- $6.55 an hour and 40 hours a week
- You have health insurance through your company

If I had that, I truly believe I could easily survive. Now life wouldn't be very extravvegent, but I could definitely get by.

I'd like to see you try and do this without any help from family or close friends. Could you survive? Yes, you would still be living, but you're crazy if you think you can have any sort of a life with that. People who make minimum wage will often need to work two of those 40 hour a week jobs to get by.

[RainMaker]

Well lets use Wal-Mart as an example. What would be the cost of health insurance for a single person at a company like that?

[RainMaker]

I'd like to see you try and do this without any help from family or close friends. Could you survive? Yes, you would still be living, but you're crazy if you think you can have any sort of a life with that. People who make minimum wage will often need to work two of those 40 hour a week jobs to get by.

I'm not talking about a life, I'm just talking about surviving.

[Danny]

I'm not talking about a life, I'm just talking about surviving.

Well then sure, unless something unexpected happens that most people have the ability to overcome, you would likely end up homeless.

[Danny]

In fact, my belief is that the whining about this is completely overblown. Now here are the factors in place:


And this is the statement I have a problem with, unless you have walked in someone's shoes that has experienced this, I wouldn't so hastily decide that living in poverty is overblown. Sure, being in poverty in this country is better than it is in many other countries, but considering the lifestyles all of us here are used to, I'm sure it would be pretty bad.

[RainMaker]

You won't pay any income tax and you would get some money back from Earned Income Credit. You could qualify for some government assistance such as food stamps.

Now I'm talking about no cable TV, no cell phone, just bare bones living. Food costs aren't hard to keep down on your own and if you can find a way to use public transportation to get to work, you don't have to worry about a car payment or insurance.

[RainMaker]

And this is the statement I have a problem with, unless you have walked in someone's shoes that has experienced this, I wouldn't so hastily decide that living in poverty is overblown. Sure, being in poverty in this country is better than it is in many other countries, but considering the lifestyles all of us here are used to, I'm sure it would be pretty bad.

I was extremely poor in college and was able to live on under $10,000 a year. I had a couple roommates and was able to really go cheap on food and other stuff. I'd even have enough to go out on occasion.

My thoughts are that it can be done. Certainly having major life altering events such as a major illness causes huge problems. But if you are able to avoid those, you should be able to get by. I just think we've hit a point where we expect minimum wage to afford a nice cell phone and cable TV when these should be considered luxuries.

[Danny]

And what happens if the bus is late or misses it's route one day and you're late for work and lose your job for that? Heat and water and power even for a small place can run quite high if you're in a cold/hot environment.

Also, it was said earlier, but most businesses will not give the minimum wage workers 40 hours, nor will they get free health insurance.

[DaddyTorgo]

I was extremely poor in college and was able to live on under $10,000 a year. I had a couple roommates and was able to really go cheap on food and other stuff. I'd even have enough to go out on occasion.

My thoughts are that it can be done. Certainly having major life altering events such as a major illness causes huge problems. But if you are able to avoid those, you should be able to get by. I just think we've hit a point where we expect minimum wage to afford a nice cell phone and cable TV when these should be considered luxuries.
i'm not sure i get what you mean about what we expect minimum wage to afford...

[DaddyTorgo]

you'll be eating rice and beans every night too. and lord forbid your water or power goes out in your apartment...you're screwed.

college is different than life.

[RainMaker]

And what happens if the bus is late or misses it's route one day and you're late for work and lose your job for that? Heat and water and power even for a small place can run quite high if you're in a cold/hot environment.

Also, it was said earlier, but most businesses will not give the minimum wage workers 40 hours, nor will they get free health insurance.

That's life. There are a lot of people who take public transportation and are able to keep their jobs.

Those can be high costs but with roommates can be cut down drastically. Also living in a warmer climate would avoid having to pay for heating costs in the winter.

[Danny]

I was extremely poor in college and was able to live on under $10,000 a year. I had a couple roommates and was able to really go cheap on food and other stuff. I'd even have enough to go out on occasion.

My thoughts are that it can be done. Certainly having major life altering events such as a major illness causes huge problems. But if you are able to avoid those, you should be able to get by. I just think we've hit a point where we expect minimum wage to afford a nice cell phone and cable TV when these should be considered luxuries.

And you were a bachelor with roommates like you said, you also were young and healthy. You say major injury, but what if you just break your foot? There goes your job. What if you have a family?

You're right, under your circumstances if everything always goes 100% according to plan and is 100% ideal (no family, no injury, etc...) it can be done. But life generally doesn't work like that.

[Radii]

My sister manages a dominos, I'm fairly sure that the health plan she has access to would cost her between $150-$250/mo as a single person, I forget the exact amount. She is obviously in a better situation as a manager, but its the same plan that the min. wage staff is offered if they hang around long enough and become eligible. The plans available to her were not very good either, with $30 office copays and $2k deductibles.

Three years ago working full time at a tech company I paid less per month for better health coverage for me+spouse.

[RainMaker]

you'll be eating rice and beans every night too. and lord forbid your water or power goes out in your apartment...you're screwed.

college is different than life.
You can eat a lot more than that. Food is cheap if you play the game right.

[DaddyTorgo]

You can eat a lot more than that. Food is cheap if you play the game right.

well i was exaggerating, but eating massively unhealthy (ie off the dollar menu everyday) will result in malnutrition and health problems that will have you end up in the hospital and thus bankrupt you completely also

[RainMaker]

i'm not sure i get what you mean about what we expect minimum wage to afford...
I just feel like our expectations for what a minimum standard of life is much higher than it needs to be. I feel like people believe that cell phones, air conditioning and cable TV should be things we all have.

[DaddyTorgo]

I just feel like our expectations for what a minimum standard of life is much higher than it needs to be. I feel like people believe that cell phones, air conditioning and cable TV should be things we all have.

i don't think so.

maybe the middle-class feels that way, but i think if you went out there and asked people living close to the poverty line they wouldn't feel those were things they should be "entitled" to or should defiantly be able to afford. I'm also not sure how you can make such a blanket generalization, especially since you clearly are not currently lacking any of those things. Upon what do you base this feeling?

[Danny]

I just feel like our expectations for what a minimum standard of life is much higher than it needs to be. I feel like people believe that cell phones, air conditioning and cable TV should be things we all have.

I just think you're assuming everyone under this scenario everyone is a single, young, healthy, male.

Also, making what you said leaves 0 room for things to go wrong. And things do go wrong.

[RainMaker]

well i was exaggerating, but eating massively unhealthy (ie off the dollar menu everyday) will result in malnutrition and health problems that will have you end up in the hospital and thus bankrupt you completely also
I think eating is overblown. I'll take the points on health care costs and such, but you can really live cheap on food and not eat that bad. I did it for a couple years and still hate paying a lot for food.

Loaf of generic bread + jar of peanut butter + jar of jelly = 10 sandwiches for maybe $5. You can buy big bags of brown rice and frozen vegetables for next to nothing. Eggs are relatively cheap and can be a quick meal for under $1. Cans of soup, beans, or veggies are relatively cheap. Generic noodles and a jar of generic pasta sauce is cheap. There are a lot of ways to eat somewhat healthy for somewhat cheap.

[DaddyTorgo]

I think eating is overblown. I'll take the points on health care costs and such, but you can really live cheap on food and not eat that bad. I did it for a couple years and still hate paying a lot for food.

Loaf of generic bread + jar of peanut butter + jar of jelly = 10 sandwiches for maybe $5. You can buy big bags of brown rice and frozen vegetables for next to nothing. Eggs are relatively cheap and can be a quick meal for under $1. Cans of soup, beans, or veggies are relatively cheap. Generic noodles and a jar of generic pasta sauce is cheap. There are a lot of ways to eat somewhat healthy for somewhat cheap.

fair enough

loaf of bread + jar of peanut butter was one of my staples when i was working at starbucks for dinners there. throw the bread in the fridge and i've got 10 days worth of dinners right there

[Danny]

I think eating is overblown. I'll take the points on health care costs and such, but you can really live cheap on food and not eat that bad. I did it for a couple years and still hate paying a lot for food.

Loaf of generic bread + jar of peanut butter + jar of jelly = 10 sandwiches for maybe $5. You can buy big bags of brown rice and frozen vegetables for next to nothing. Eggs are relatively cheap and can be a quick meal for under $1. Cans of soup, beans, or veggies are relatively cheap. Generic noodles and a jar of generic pasta sauce is cheap. There are a lot of ways to eat somewhat healthy for somewhat cheap.

This is one point I agree with you on. I eat a pretty good amount of food, but you could easily eat for under $100 a month for one person and not eat unhealthy. Find a ethnic grocery store to buy fruits and vegetables from (about 1/3 t o a 1/4 the price of Ralphs/Vons), then buy cheap other stuff or clip coupons.

[Danny]

And even with the good amount of a food I eat, I'd say my wife and I only spend around $300 a month on food. If we had to, we could cut them down to under $200, but it would be very bare bones.

[DaddyTorgo]

This is one point I agree with you on. I eat a pretty good amount of food, but you could easily eat for under $100 a month for one person and not eat unhealthy. Find a ethnic grocery store to buy fruits and vegetables from (about 1/3 t o a 1/4 the price of Ralphs/Vons), then buy cheap other stuff or clip coupons.

i'm generally a cheap eater too and hate paying a ton for food.

[DaddyTorgo]

you could probably eat for like 2 weeks on a whole chicken as a single person, and if you know how to break it down...add some frozen veggies and rice in for a soup and you're good for even more

[Danny]

i'm generally a cheap eater too and hate paying a ton for food.

When I worked at Vons, it pained me to see how a large percentage of the people with food stamps handled spending their money.

[k0ruptr]

If you have your renting a room (ie roommates), instead of a house, this can be done easily, and still live decently. If your renting an actual house, well then your screwed.

[k0ruptr]

This is one point I agree with you on. I eat a pretty good amount of food, but you could easily eat for under $100 a month for one person and not eat unhealthy. Find a ethnic grocery store to buy fruits and vegetables from (about 1/3 t o a 1/4 the price of Ralphs/Vons), then buy cheap other stuff or clip coupons.

not to mention farmers markets.

[RainMaker]

i don't think so.

maybe the middle-class feels that way, but i think if you went out there and asked people living close to the poverty line they wouldn't feel those were things they should be "entitled" to or should defiantly be able to afford. I'm also not sure how you can make such a blanket generalization, especially since you clearly are not currently lacking any of those things. Upon what do you base this feeling?

We are setting up government programs for some of these things. We pay fees on our phone bills for programs like Lifeline. Our tax dollars go toward programs that help pay air conditioning bills. We've also had bills on the table to force cable companies into changing how they are allowed to bill people in an effort to make it more accessible for lower income households.

That to me is a change in what we consider bare necessities.

[Danny]

If you have your renting a room (ie roommates), instead of a house, this can be done easily, and still live decently. If your renting an actual house, well then your screwed.

Also depends on location. I am in Los Angeles and even a really crappy apartment in a bad neighborhood costs $700 a month.

[thesloppy]

I just think we've hit a point where we expect minimum wage to afford a nice cell phone and cable TV when these should be considered luxuries.

Are you really going to begrudge someone on minimum wage a cell phone and cable TV? I know it's sadly unrealistic to pay absolutely everybody in this country a living wage, but I don't think anybody who works 40 hours a week should be expected to live in poverty and without any luxuries entirely. While I can grasp why you may think a cell phone and cable TV qualify as luxuries, I can't grasp why exactly minimum wage workers shouldn't be allowed any luxuries? If someone makes the minimum wage, does everybody who doesn't get to decide what is appropriate for them to spend it on?

[k0ruptr]

also I'm not sure how it works in the mainland, but from my experience here in Hawaii, It's actually the minimum wage jobs that give you 40+ hours of work , and the ones that pay more that cut your hours to less.

[k0ruptr]

Also depends on location. I am in Los Angeles and even a really crappy apartment in a bad neighborhood costs $700 a month.

And I look at 700 a month as Cheap! apartments / houses here are closer to 900-1000 a month for crappy places.

[Danny]

also I'm not sure how it works in the mainland, but from my experience here in Hawaii, It's actually the minimum wage jobs that give you 40+ hours of work , and the ones that pay more that cut your hours to less.

Often companies will give you the amount of hours right below where they have to give you benefits.

[Danny]

And I look at 700 a month as Cheap! apartments / houses here are closer to 900-1000 a month for crappy places.

I'm willing to bet the $900 place in Hawaii is a lot better than the $700 place in Los Angeles :)

[k0ruptr]

Often companies will give you the amount of hours right below where they have to give you benefits.

this is absolutely true, and how it works where I'm at for a lot of companies.

[k0ruptr]

I'm willing to bet the $900 place in Hawaii is a lot better than the $700 place in Los Angeles :)

yea your probably right about that...

[stevew]

We are setting up government programs for some of these things. We pay fees on our phone bills for programs like Lifeline. Our tax dollars go toward programs that help pay air conditioning bills. We've also had bills on the table to force cable companies into changing how they are allowed to bill people in an effort to make it more accessible for lower income households.

That to me is a change in what we consider bare necessities.

I agree with you. I was thinking when I was mowing my grass. Back in the day the poor would garden or grow food...basically try to exist. It had to suck back then, and I'm sure a lot of people died.

Now it's basically better to be poor than working poor. Poor will get all manner of breaks on everything like health care, food stamps, heating bills, electric bills, rent, and probably even transportation.

If you make like 40K as a family of 4 you're not getting any of that stuff, you have to pay for everything. Which is basically the way it should be.

Regardless, the system is fucked.

[RainMaker]

fair enough

loaf of bread + jar of peanut butter was one of my staples when i was working at starbucks for dinners there. throw the bread in the fridge and i've got 10 days worth of dinners right there

I worked at Starbucks too back in the day. Taking home a couple bagels at night was always a nice breakfast the next morning.

[Danny]

I agree with you. I was thinking when I was mowing my grass. Back in the day the poor would garden or grow food...basically try to exist. It had to suck back then, and I'm sure a lot of people died.

Now it's basically better to be poor than working poor. Poor will get all manner of breaks on everything like health care, food stamps, heating bills, electric bills, rent, and probably even transportation.

If you make like 40K as a family of 4 you're not getting any of that stuff, you have to pay for everything. Which is basically the way it should be.

Regardless, the system is fucked.

This is true, there are a lot of people and families out there who are working extremely hard to still barely get by (and sometimes not) and those that take advantage of government programs and are not being a functioning member of society.

[BYU 14]

And I look at 700 a month as Cheap! apartments / houses here are closer to 900-1000 a month for crappy places.

I was really surprised at the "Homeless" communities on some of the beaches in Hawaii and was told some people chose to live that way, basically setting up tents and using nearby public showers and restrooms.

I was talking to the guide about it on one of our stops and he said quite a few people that have tents set up on the beach work minimum wage jobs that don't have any stress or entail any real skills and surf. Food is their only real overhead and he told me he knew a few that did quite well living like that. I found this all very interesting, as on the mainland you usually don't find people that are homeless by choice.

But in keeping with the theme of the thread, looking at the way these "beach" people as the guide called them live, it is not only feasible there but actually preferred in their situation.

[RainMaker]

I think everyone could learn a thing or two from the migrant workers who come up from Mexico and other countries every year. I rememember working in a factory in the Summer at 20 and these guys lived in a dumpy house for cheap rent. They grew a ton of tomatoes and peppers in the backyard and would basically bring in a tortilla stuffed with stuff and beans everyday for lunch. I can't imagine they were spending over $20 a week in food. They were extremely frugal and never bought a snack out of the machine or went out for fast food like everyone else.

[thesloppy]

I think the question of government funded programs, and that of minimum wage aren't all that related. I have no problem with people questioning where government money (and their tax monies by extension) goes, and whether assistance programs are necessary. On the other hand, minimum wage is not a government benefit, it's money paid for work done, usually from one private party to another. While the value of that minimum wage is determined by the government, and based on their estimation of what constitutes a 'living wage', if someone figures out how to live effectively on that money AND afford some luxuries, i certainly don't think you or I have any right to tell them what is appropriate to spend their money on, or that they're being paid too much.

[RainMaker]

Are you really going to begrudge someone on minimum wage a cell phone and cable TV? I know it's sadly unrealistic to pay absolutely everybody in this country a living wage, but I don't think anybody who works 40 hours a week should be expected to live in poverty and without any luxuries entirely. While I can grasp why you may think a cell phone and cable TV qualify as luxuries, I can't grasp why exactly minimum wage workers shouldn't be allowed any luxuries? If someone makes the minimum wage, does everybody who doesn't get to decide what is appropriate for them to spend it on?

I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed luxuries. I'm just saying that I don't really think our tax dollars should be paying for it.

[thesloppy]

I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed luxuries. I'm just saying that I don't really think our tax dollars should be paying for it.

Well, as luck would have it, our tax dollars aren't paying minimum wage workers, their employers are. Problem solved?

If you want (a relatively teeny, tiny fraction of) your tax dollars to go somewhere other than they Air-Conditioning assistance programs, your beef is with your government, rather than advocating that poor folks working 40 hours a week should learn to huddle together like a bunch of Mexican immigrants you once knew.

[Danny]

I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed luxuries. I'm just saying that I don't really think our tax dollars should be paying for it.

That's a separate issue though, there is a difference between working for a livable wage and taking it as part of a government handout. I think that people in this country who work hard should be rewarded with a livable wage and possibly even be given additional benefits. People who don't should not be rewarded for that.

[RainMaker]

Well, as luck would have it, our tax dollars aren't paying minimum wage workers, their employers are. Problem solved?

If you want (a relatively teeny, tiny fraction of) your tax dollars to go somewhere other than they Air-Conditioning assistance programs, your beef is with your government, rather than advocating that poor folks working 40 hours a week should learn to huddle together like a bunch of Mexican immigrants you once knew.

Minimum wage workers and their advocates are the ones constantly crying for more and saying that they can't possibly survive on it. And when you're as unskilled as Mexican immigrants, perhaps you should live like them too.

[RainMaker]

That's a separate issue though, there is a difference between working for a livable wage and taking it as part of a government handout. I think that people in this country who work hard should be rewarded with a livable wage and possibly even be given additional benefits. People who don't should not be rewarded for that.

I'm down with that. I think the Earned Income Credit is a good idea that is not used enough. I'd like to see more aid taken away from non-workers and given toward those who are working and just coming up short.

[thesloppy]

Minimum wage workers and their advocates are the ones constantly crying for more and saying that they can't possibly survive on it. And when you're as unskilled as Mexican immigrants, perhaps you should live like them too.

Well, no matter how much and how loud they cry, the overwhelming majority of that 'more' is always going to keep coming from their employers' pockets and having absolutely no effect on your taxes, and I suppose you can continue to sweat from shouldering a massive burden that doesn't exist.

Further, I'd like a little help understanding how you think reducing the minimum wage would somehow reduce the need for poverty assistance. If you want to reduce the tax burden of the poor, then you should be advocating for a raise in minimum wage, which would give working poor the ability to afford those things themselves, and shift the financial burden onto employers/industry rather than government. What you appear to be advocating is denying poor people a living wage AND assistance, which isn't very fair or even really understandable.

[RainMaker]

Well, no matter how much and how loud they cry, the overwhelming majority of that 'more' is always going to keep coming from their employers' pockets and having absolutely no effect on your taxes, and I suppose you can continue to sweat from shouldering a massive burden that doesn't exist.

Further, I'd like a little help understanding how you think reducing the minimum wage would somehow reduce the need for poverty assistance. If you want to reduce the tax burden of the poor, then you should be advocating for a raise in minimum wage, which would give working poor the ability to afford those things themselves, and shift the financial burden onto employers/industry rather than government. What you appear to be advocating is denying poor people a living wage AND assistance, which isn't very fair or even really understandable.

I'm not angry at the minimum wage. I'm saying I don't think it's as horrible as some people say. That if you were told you'd have to survive on this and only this, you definitely would be able to.

We are able to survive on minimal things if we are forced to. I'm not advocating denying poor people a fair minimum wage. I am saying that with our backs to the wall, we could all survive on that if we needed to. That giving people crutches along the way hurts them more than just saying "you're going to have to do this on your own".

[thesloppy]

I'm not advocating denying poor people a fair minimum wage. I am saying that with our backs to the wall, we could all survive on that if we needed to. That giving people crutches along the way hurts them more than just saying "you're going to have to do this on your own".

Well, that sentiment is fair enough, but where you're losing me is you appear to be directing a bunch of venom at the people doing just that. Regardless of your beliefs, welfare cases and minimum wage workers are two separate issues (that may or may not crossover in specific individual cases), and lumping those things together makes for a messy, muddled discussion.

[RainMaker]

Well, that sentiment is fair enough, but where you're losing me is you appear to be directing a bunch of venom at the people doing just that. Regardless of your beliefs, welfare cases and minimum wage workers are two separate issues (that may or may not crossover in specific individual cases), and lumping those things together makes for a messy, muddled discussion.

I was just trying to point out that our idea of "necessities" have changed a lot. 10 years ago A/C, cell phones, and cable TV were luxuries. Now we have some in government calling them necessities and setting up taxpayer funded programs to get lower income people them.

[JonInMiddleGA]

also I'm not sure how it works in the mainland, but from my experience here in Hawaii, It's actually the minimum wage jobs that give you 40+ hours of work , and the ones that pay more that cut your hours to less.

I'm sitting here scratching my head trying to figure out what literally minimum wage jobs there are left in the Athens, GA area. I mean, the first thing that came to mind (and what I was going to comment on originally) was McDonald's et al but then I remember they're paying around $10 an hour here to start these days. Maybe the Wal-Mart greeters are still making min. wage, but anyway to my original thought, I'm with the original poster on this. Virtually all the low end jobs I can think that would be min. wage candidates are in the 15-25 hour per week range. The object as far as I know is to avoid having them classified as full-time employees which could trigger certain benefits eligibility with some employers, as well as (IIRC) some advantage at certain number of full-time employee tiers with regard to various state labor department filings, unemployment insurance costs, etc.

[thesloppy]

I was just trying to point out that our idea of "necessities" have changed a lot. 10 years ago A/C, cell phones, and cable TV were luxuries. Now we have some in government calling them necessities and setting up taxpayer funded programs to get lower income people them.

I think that's fair to say...but 10 years ago cell phones and cable TV were also completely different entities. Nowadays, you can easily have a cell phone without a land-line, conversely I'm not even sure you can watch TV without a cable box of some sort. In that regard, you and I would agree that attributing new government money to a new cell-phone assistance program could be considered luxurious, but if on the other hand were talking about diverting resources that had already long-been attributed towards 'phone assistance' to include cell phones (admittedly, I don't know much about the specifics of assistance programs), then I have a hard time getting heated up about it.

Lastly, it's worth considering who else would like the government to enact air-conditioning, cell-phones, and/or cable television assistance programs, before we condemn everybody on assistance. It's likely that at least some of those voices you hear crying out for those assistance programs are coming from the dead presidents in some politician's bank account, compliments of air-conditioning, cell-phone, and/or cable television. While those abusing the welfare/assistance program would happily welcome the offer of the government-paid cable, a company like Comcast would be twice as happy to take your tax monies, in order to give it to them.

I don't know how much cash a national cable/cell contract would offer, but I imagine it would be truly phenomenal. Being the cynic that I am, I think that kind of financial maneuvering is the driving force behind labeling things like cable and cell phones as necessities, rather than greedy welfare/assistance cheats, but that is pure conjecture and fantasy on my part, and your mileage may vary.

[Danny]

I mean, the first thing that came to mind (and what I was going to comment on originally) was McDonald's et al but then I remember they're paying around $10 an hour here to start these days.

In LA, fast food workers, about half of the grocery store workers and I am sure many others only make minimum wage or barely above it. Ideally it would be like it is for you in Georgia everywhere and we could get rid of minimum wage. I think the argument here is very location dependant. The McDonald's worker in Georgia making $10 can probably survive alright. The McDonald's worker in Los Angeles making $8 probably isn't. That may be an issue more with the California economy right now than minimum wage being too low.

[Shkspr]

Okay, first off, here's why we subsidize heating and cooling bills for the poor: because the poor tend to not have a lot of money. Since they don't have a whole lot of money lying around, they pick and choose what they pay for, and mostly what they tend to pick are tangible things where they can see the material benefit of their money immediately. Generally speaking, it's shelter, then food, then transportation, then electric and finally phone service. Poor people who are unhappy with life may bump entertainment above transportation, and this is why we call unhappy poor people stupid.

And they are stupid, because when their electricity gets turned off, because of the bill juggling thing, they lose the ability to regulate their environment. Since said environment has been engineered to be climate controlled from the inside, we don't really build shelter so much anymore to mitigate extremes of temperature - especially the buildings we tend to let unhappy poor stupid people live in. So if they can't regulate their climate, and their home isn't doing it via engineering, they tend to wind up cold, or hot, or wet. And they get sick. And when they get cold, or wet, or hot, they go to the hospital. And we let them into the hospital, because generally speaking, doctors cure the sick. They even cure poor unhappy stupid sick people who can't pay for it, because otherwise the poor unhappy stupid people would rot in the streets.

And if they cure the poor, your tax dollars, or insurance dollars, or co-pay dollars, will end up paying for it, because the doctors need to make a living lest they become poor. And unhappy. And eventually sick. And if they don't cure the poor, your tax dollars will pay for it, because breathing in the fumes of dead poor stupid people will make YOU sick. Particularly if they die next to your air conditioner. And if YOU get sick, then you'll have to go to the hospital, and your tax dollars, insurance dollars, or co-pay dollars will pay to get YOU well.

Bottom line is, poor people die from not having AC. They're stupid and it sucks, but we've pretty much decided as a society that the pennies from our tax bill that go to keeping the air on is worth not seeing the news footage of a dead senior citizen wheeled out of a tenement.

Now, I had a nice post all lined up to write about what living on $10 a day (after shelter and bills) for years at a time is really like, but I've got work in five hours and should get some shuteye.

So I don't lose my job and become poor, you know. :)

[clemsonfan]

There's a great book that I read on this topic. It's called Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America

[miked]

Man, when I was in grad school I was pulling in about 1k per month and working about 70 hours a week. Sucked. Lived with roommates, ate lots of PBJ, kept the thermostat at 78 in the summer. Anyone CAN live like that, but it's hard bringing chicks home to bang when your roommates are lying around.

[k0ruptr]

I've never had AC in a home, I didn't know its considered a necessity now.

[Sgran]

I stress about money like everyone esle, but it's important to keep in mind that happiness is just about the same for everyone: Dan Gilbert asks, Why are we happy? | Video on TED.com (http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy.html)

You should also keep in mind that much of the world lives on a dollar a day according to the UN.

[CamEdwards]

I took care of a family of four while making $6.65 an hour back when I first got married. My wife had moved out to Oklahoma and didn't have a job for a few months, and I had a very low paying job at a television station in town.

Yes it sucks, but it can be done, and without government assistance. Of course, living in a town like OKC where the housing is cheap helps quite a bit.

[clemsonfan]

I've never had AC in a home, I didn't know its considered a necessity now.


But you live in a place that has a constant breeze. Try living in a place that has unbearable humidity and no breeze in the summer (Greenville, SC- where I grew up).

[fantom1979]

If you are lucky enough to find a minimum wage job that will give you full time (I don't see that much in retail, usually if you are minimum wage, you are part time, and your hours are the first to get cut during slow times), you make $6.55/hour ($7.25 starting July 24th) or $262 a week. That will get you about $1135 per month. The starting rate for an apartment here is about $500/month. That leaves you with about $600/month for food, heat, transportation, and clothing.

Could you do it? probably
Would anyone ever want to do it? probably not
Could you survive? Well, that is a loaded question. I could survive on $0 a month by stealing from grocery stores, eating out of garbage cans, and living under over-passes.

If you are creative enough, you can SURVIVE on any income, or no income. The question is not very good in my opinion.

The question should be, why do people make minimum wage? and, Why do we give assistance to the people making minimum wage?

Why do people make minimum wage?
People make minimum wage, because as a society, we NEED people to make minimum wage. Without cheap labor, the price of products would soar. Which would lower the buying power for all. Do you think McDonalds would have a dollar menu if everyone made $40k a year? Not everyone can be in a skilled position. Even if everyone was educated for such, some people would still have to flip burgers, mop floors, and work on farms.

Why do we give assistance to the people making minimum wage?
First and foremost, because of the reasons listed above, not everyone can be a freaking doctor. While we reward those that excel in our country, it really isn't too much to ask everyone to chip in some change and help pay for someones heat or phone. If we start buying the poor Lexus and Plasma Televisions, I can see the bitching, but phone, heat, power, food are basics in my mind. Also, by providing those things to the poor, I like to think that it keeps them happier and more productive at work, which in turn keeps my value meal price down. It keeps them healthier, which makes it so I don't have to subsidize their costly hospital visits. And hopefully it keeps them well off enough to not steal things from grocery stores and from work, which in turn also keeps my food prices low and lowers the amount of cops I need looking for these thieves, which keeps my property taxes low. All of these benefits for some change that gets taken out of my check every payday.

Also, Lifeline provides qualified consumers with a discount on monthly charges for their primary home phone line, even if it’s a cell phone. Thats right from the Lineline.gov website. Its not like they are paying the entire bill or getting data plans and blackberrys for people. They are getting a discount on their PRIMARY phone line, and if that happens to be a cell phone, they get a discount on the service. And by the way, if you happen to get some OT on that minimum wage full time job, and that puts you over $14,621 for the year, you are no longer eligible for the program.

[larrymcg421]

I took care of a family of four while making $6.65 an hour back when I first got married. My wife had moved out to Oklahoma and didn't have a job for a few months, and I had a very low paying job at a television station in town.

Yes it sucks, but it can be done, and without government assistance. Of course, living in a town like OKC where the housing is cheap helps quite a bit.

How long ago was this? $6.65 ain't what it used to be.

[fantom1979]

I've never had AC in a home, I didn't know its considered a necessity now.

Tell that to the 739 people that died in Chicago in July of 1995 due to heat. On average, 400 Americans die of heat every year, which is higher on average than the number of people that die from tornadoes, earthquakes, and floods combined. 6,200 Americans are hospitalized every year due to heat, most of those are (you guessed it) poor, uninsured or elderly. I would imagine that we are picking up those hospital bills.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heatwave)

[CraigSca]

On a macro economic level, we're all impacted by a raise in the minimum wage.

By raising the minimum wage, you increase the wage rates of unskilled work above the level that would be established by market forces. Those who have jobs that paid near the minimum wage will enjoy the increase in pay. Those who don't have jobs will find less unskilled jobs available as they have been replaced with higher-skilled workers/machines and/or those jobs have been eliminated because the marginal revenue they bring to the table is less than their pay.

This may also explain why it's hard to find minimum wage jobs that pay a full 40 hours/week.

[JeeberD]

I'm sitting here scratching my head trying to figure out what literally minimum wage jobs there are left in the Athens, GA area. I mean, the first thing that came to mind (and what I was going to comment on originally) was McDonald's et al but then I remember they're paying around $10 an hour here to start these days.

Do you personally know McDonald's workers who are making that much, or are there signs saying that they're hiring at that wage? When I was in fast food years ago we once had a sign up saying we were hiring and would pay "up to $7.00/hour" (min wage was probably still $5.25 at that point). Since I was making less than the $7.00/hr that the sign was offering, I asked my GM why new people would be making more than me. His reply was, "If Jesus himself applies, we might give him $7.00. Anyone else, it's not happening." So, in other words, don't trust the signs, especially if they include the phrase "up to".

[SportsDino]

The median household income is around 50K, I guess that means 25K per person roughly (since all their statistical magic tricks basically means the stat represents two people, or 1.8 peoples, who knows).

Its hard to find the mean, probably because it is just plain embarrassing.

If any of you are sure you can live on minimum wage it is easy enough to find out, set aside a minimum wage for your living expenses and put everything else directly into savings (or paying down debt). No reason the wealthy can't 'live like a Mexican' as well and further increase their wealth, you would even have the luxury of benefits most likely.

Any of us could survive, and many can probably even have a decent life on such a budget, but to act like it would be easy is stupid.

Minimum wage and related social programs for poverty are not the things draining your 401k, or raising your prices at the store, or causing your taxes to go through the roof like all the pundits would tell you... its a relative drop in the bucket for economic effect. Its the guys in fancy suits who are fucking up the economy, draining the public welfare funds (corp welfare spending measured against all social spending would be a fun statistic to calculate), and in general leading the country into the gutter. Its just fun to point at the lower class and rabble rouse.

I'm not big on waste or massive programs with huge numbers floating around, but to focus on the big pile of money that helps millions (with maybe a fraction as exploiters and worthless individuals)... while ignoring the big piles of money that help dozens (every one an exploiter and worthless individual)... that I find offensive more than some mother not even trying to find a job anymore to feed her kids and living off the system. We have built a system where people can not earn their living easily, so they go down whatever path of least resistance they can find (see massive unemployment, concentration of wealth and new business investment in fewer hands, and employers constantly seeking for the best way to screw their employees to save another million to waste on CEO golden parachutes).

[k0ruptr]

Hmm it seems my AC comment came off as smug, I didn't mean it that way at all. I just honestly didn't realize it was a necessity.

[CU Tiger]

I just feel like our expectations for what a minimum standard of life is much higher than it needs to be. I feel like people believe that cell phones, air conditioning and cable TV should be things we all have.

Apparently you have never lived in a hot climate, or are only thinking of young healthy people. We have older people die every year around here because of heat in their home.

[wade moore]

Wow. RM may be on the highest horse I've ever seen at FOFC.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Do you personally know McDonald's workers who are making that much, or are there signs saying that they're hiring at that wage?

At this very moment? No. Have I known them over the past few years? Yes.
And no, most of the ones I've seen here don't use the phrase "up to". It's odd here I think, because of the shortage of quality workers (even fast food quality) in spite of the availability of college students & that's who ends up with those jobs here. I can only think of a couple of places that seem to use high school kids at all & I suspect those are still min wage places.

But I really didn't mean to put any focus on that sidebar, I really only intended to comment on less than 40 hour for min wage jobs that seems common around here, the relative lack of true min wage jobs in the area was something that just sort of hit me while I was posting.

[Honolulu Blue]

I know it can be done, because I did it when I was a lot younger and had fewer skills. It helps a lot if:

1) You're single,
2) Have little or no debt,
3) Can use public transportation or walk to most necessary places,
4) Live where the rent is cheap,
5) Aren't fussy about food, and
6) Don't care much about the finer things in life.

I'm surprised no one mentioned one obvious solution to high rental costs - living with the parents.

As for the EITC, if you're working full-time at the minimum wage, single, with no kids, you'll actually make too much for qualify for it. The EITC is mostly for family units with children.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Hmm it seems my AC comment came off as smug, I didn't mean it that way at all. I just honestly didn't realize it was a necessity.

I can buy that, I imagine there are a few places in the country where it isn't. But I can assure you that Georgia ain't one of them ;)

[Butter]

Wow. RM may be on the highest horse I've ever seen at FOFC.

I bet he's getting a nosebleed.

[RendeR]

Speaking as someone who has BEEN HOMELESS.

THe system and economy in this country does not allow for the survival of a single healthy male on minimum wage ON THEIR OWN.

If you are between the ages of 18 and 45 you do not qualify for government assistance unless you are physically or mentally disabled. So you get NOTHING from the government, no health care not foodstamps no fiscal assistance in any way.

If you have children you get money thrown at you and are therefore NOT LIVING ON MIN WAGE. Period.

Single women are also in the group with kids, they are given assistance albeit at a lower level than those with children.

I've read this thread and every time someone posts a position saying you CAN live on it I see all sorts of stipulations, "living at home" "living with roomates" "family of four, oh yeah we got government assistance too"

With those benefits, sure, anyone could survive on minimum wage. But you're not really living on that wage now are you?

In this nation, under THIS economy, minimum wage is almost impossible to live on and have anything resembling a normal existance.

Survive? Probably, but live? no. Not by any acceptable standard. I find the comparison to migrant workers an interesting one, but if you look closely it doesn't fit either, they live in groups in hovels Americans wouldn't and possibly COUldn't live in due to regulations on substandard housing. They don't drive, which Americans could do without, but doing so also strictly limits the radius of your job search.

Its easy to sit back and say "sure you COULD, it would SUCK but you could" when in reality *in THIS country* its simply not feasible to do so and remain a viable healthy human being.

[DaddyTorgo]

Wow. RM may be on the highest horse I've ever seen at FOFC.

:lol:

[lungs]

I think everyone could learn a thing or two from the migrant workers who come up from Mexico and other countries every year.

+1

My workers from Nicaragua, although we pay them well over minimum wage (like $10-12/hour) essentially live on less than minimum wage because of the money they send back to Nicaragua. They live pretty frugally. But it does help that I provide them with free housing, so they don't have to worry about that. There's a specialty grocery store in my small town that caters to Latinos and we've had some in the past have their own gardens (with an occasional marijuana plant sprouting up at times around the property)

[Mustang]

(with an occasional marijuana plant sprouting up at times around the property)

Marijuana on your property?

Nooooo? Really? :p :D

[lungs]

Marijuana on your property?

Nooooo? Really? :p :D

If my employees are going to smoke I'd rather have them grow their own :)

and maybe share

[DaddyTorgo]

+1

My workers from Nicaragua, although we pay them well over minimum wage (like $10-12/hour) essentially live on less than minimum wage because of the money they send back to Nicaragua. They live pretty frugally. But it does help that I provide them with free housing, so they don't have to worry about that. There's a specialty grocery store in my small town that caters to Latinos and we've had some in the past have their own gardens (with an occasional marijuana plant sprouting up at times around the property)

kudos to you for paying them better and providing housing.

don't underestimate the value of that - housing is (obviously) the #1 expense for everybody

[lungs]

kudos to you for paying them better and providing housing.

don't underestimate the value of that - housing is (obviously) the #1 expense for everybody

It actually makes life 10X easier for me. Somebody didn't show up for work? Their house is 20 feet away. I need an extra hand with something? They are right there. Likewise, it cuts transportation costs. 6 guys share one car which is really only used to get groceries.

My management style sort of fits into the old school philosophy from Latin America where the boss isn't just somebody that bosses you around everyday but also is almost like a father figure. A lot of times they actually expect you to help mediate disputes and help with problems that have nothing to do with work. I figured it'd be much easier for me to adjust to their culture then for them to adjust to mine. They aren't the type that will stay in America anyway, so they don't need to assimilate.

A bit off topic, but something I thought I'd share nonetheless.

[Ryan S]

If I were not in London, or the south of England I could certainly live on the UK minimum wage, but I would not want to try.

The current minimum wage is $18,123, assuming a 37.5 hour week. (which seems to be the standard in the public sector). The cost of living seems to be a fair bit higher in the UK, but this is offset somewhat by the free healthcare.
</TD>

[kcchief19]

I think everyone could learn a thing or two from the migrant workers who come up from Mexico and other countries every year. I rememember working in a factory in the Summer at 20 and these guys lived in a dumpy house for cheap rent. They grew a ton of tomatoes and peppers in the backyard and would basically bring in a tortilla stuffed with stuff and beans everyday for lunch. I can't imagine they were spending over $20 a week in food. They were extremely frugal and never bought a snack out of the machine or went out for fast food like everyone else.
I think we've finally gotten to your point here. If your definition of surviving is living like a poor Central American family, then yes, you can survive on minimum wage.

[kcchief19]

I think a lot of your assumptions are wrong. In my days of minimum wage jobs, we never got benefits like health insurance (I challenge you to find a minimum wage job that does). Insurance for a woman in child-bearing years will be twice the costs (if not more) for a man the same age. It's easily $300-400 a month. If you're making minimum wage, that's a third of your salary right there. Plus, I was usually kept from working 40-hours a week because 40-hour a week jobs can be classified as full-time and in some cases may require the employer pay benefits.

Yes, there are programs that you can qualify for to help you pay for things. The Lifeline discount will get you $10 a month discount toward phone service. Don't need a phone? A minimum wage job usually means needing to be on call or available at a moment's notice. I had a job where I wasn't required to be on call, but anyone who didn't answer their phone when they were needed didn't have a job for long.

Great story about making $10,000 a year in college and getting by. Very impressive. Where did you go to school? Our local community college is about $2-2.5k a year, so if you were able to afford a four-year college without mom and dad paying the bills or one of those tax-payer-subsidized scholarships that's pretty impressive. Congratulations.

[AENeuman]

Minimum wage workers and their advocates are the ones constantly crying for more and saying that they can't possibly survive on it. And when you're as unskilled as Mexican immigrants, perhaps you should live like them too.

This is where your relativism falls apart. Why do you assume Mexican immigrants are unskilled just because they are working unskilled jobs?

You missed one important fact about your poor college experience. It was an amazing opportunity which you sacrificed (lived less well) as an investment in your future.

Without making a claim about immigrants rights, I'm just willing to bet many of those "unskilled Mexicans" would love to have the opportunity to be a poor college student.

Your "overblown" comment makes me feel that you are trying to minimize the poor experience so that you should not be responsible for your neighbor.

Also, here's a pretty good article about how the poor pay more:
The High Cost of Poverty: Why the Poor Pay More - washingtonpost.com (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/17/AR2009051702053.html)

[Ksyrup]

This was 20 years ago, but in high school I started at minimum wage as a grocery store clerk/cashier. I can't imagine 16 year olds bagging groceries or getting carts from the parking lot are making much more than minimum wage (at least to start, after a while they throw a dime or quarter raise at you)).

[JonInMiddleGA]

I can't imagine 16 year olds bagging groceries or getting carts from the parking lot are making much more than minimum wage

I honestly don't remember the last time I saw a 16 year old doing either of those things. Once in a blue moon I see an 17 or 18 year old doing it, but here that's mostly that's the domain of 50+ or non-student late teens/early 20's.

As a side note, I was just talking the other day about how few kids I see working at 16 anymore & relatively few (that I know) working in high school at all. Even in families that could use the spare income (yes, there are plenty of those in private schools too) the demands on the students don't really seem to leave time for it unless they do zero extracurricular, which in turn allegedly hurts their college applications.

[molson]

Minimum wage isn't really that much lower then what a lot of college graduates with liberal arts degrees get.

Somethere in the last 15-30 years the sense of entitlement about standard of living has outpaced the actual growth of the economy.

Our parents (and grandparents) just didn't spend like we do. Lower middle class people go out to eat at restaraunts at lunch and buy new cars and have cable TV and high-speed internet. It's out of control.

The biggest threat to the working poor was the housing boom - aside from that, minimum wage is completely do-able. But you can't have cable, internet, eat at restaraunts, buy anything that's not a necessity, and you might have to crowd a bunch of people into a tiny living space. It sucks, but any expectation of more that just doesn't make sense for America in 2009, or any time in this country's history except for the last few decades where everyone decided to pretend they had more then they did.

[wade moore]

Minimum wage isn't really that much lower then what a lot of college graduates with liberal arts degrees get.

Um, what?

Care to back that up with some facts?

[Samdari]

Minimum wage isn't really that much lower then what a lot of college graduates with liberal arts degrees get.

40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year @ 7.25 per hour is:

$15080

The only way degreed people make that is if they end up flipping burgers. If they take entry level but career track jobs, they've got to make 30, don't they?

[Ksyrup]

I honestly don't remember the last time I saw a 16 year old doing either of those things. Once in a blue moon I see an 17 or 18 year old doing it, but here that's mostly that's the domain of 50+ or non-student late teens/early 20's.

About 5-7 years ago, I lost the ability to tell the difference between a late teen and early 20s person, let alone a 16 and 17 year old. At our local Kroger, the front end and parking lot is staffed almost completely with teens. You have a few young/middle age women on cash register or running the front end and a couple of older guys kinda runnign the show as far as the baggers/cart guys, but they are all fairly young looking to me.

[molson]

40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year @ 7.25 per hour is:

$15080

The only way degreed people make that is if they end up flipping burgers. If they take entry level but career track jobs, they've got to make 30, don't they?

$10/hour is pretty common for administrative office-type jobs (many of which are filled with college graduates). That's about $21,000/year.

A college degree isn't what it used to be (especially one that doesn't bring with it a marketable skill). What kind of job do you guys think an undergrad Psychology or English major with mediocre grades from a crappy school are getting right out of college? There's not much out there.

[wade moore]

$10/hour is pretty common for administrative office-type jobs (many of which are filled with college graduates). That's about $21,000/year.

A college degree isn't what it used to be (especially one that doesn't bring with it a marketable skill). What kind of job do you guys think an undergrad Psychology or English major with mediocre grades from a crappy school are getting right out of college? There's not much out there.

This is the first link I found when googling:

Job Outlook for 2008 Graduates (http://www.black-collegian.com/issues/2ndsem08/job_outlook.htm)

assuming this chart is accurate, you're just way off base.

[Autumn]

I'm not angry at the minimum wage. I'm saying I don't think it's as horrible as some people say. That if you were told you'd have to survive on this and only this, you definitely would be able to.

We are able to survive on minimal things if we are forced to. I'm not advocating denying poor people a fair minimum wage. I am saying that with our backs to the wall, we could all survive on that if we needed to. That giving people crutches along the way hurts them more than just saying "you're going to have to do this on your own".

Or giving people crutches allows them to survive the experience and actually get a better job. One of the many things you're forgetting about is that when stuck in a cycle of min-wage jobs people never have time to A) be injuured or recover from an injury, B) get an education, C) look for a better job, D) do anything proactive about their health, their home or their family. People stuck in a cycle of multiple min-wage jobs aren't generally climbing up the ladder unless they get very lucky. They're reading water. Sometimes a boost up is what they need.

[BigDawg]

Sure, I done it for the last 5 months ( unemployment ) plus my wife and son have to pitch in. here is the break down....

Me - 275 week unemployment
Wife - 200 week part time ( she has medical )
Son - 175 week part time ( he has medical )

House payment - 950 month
Car payment - 300 month
Elct/Gas - 200 month
Cable/Internet/Phone - 100 month
Food - average family of 5 about 600 month
gas for car 200 month
Car insurance...NONE !!!

Its a family of 5 two kids still in school.

Bank Account long gone, several credit cards maxed and in default.

I also recieve 350 a month in food stamps now, lost on car in Feb so everyone has to share 1 car which is a major pain in the ass. I have had a couple of job offers but because of the distance or hours I couldnt do it with only 1 car.

Michigan is a mother to find a job right now, I am 46 and this is the first time in my life I couldnt find some kind of job in 1 or 2 days. I was at several job offers where I was sitting next to guys that use to make 20+ bucks an hour at FORDS or GM. Its crazy you go to places that expect several years of experiance but dont want to pay more than 8-9 bucks an hour.

So unless things change drasticly I have to look for a cheaper place to live or possibly sell car and get 2 junk cars but than you have repair expences.

[Autumn]

That 30 Days episode is pretty good, the Nickel and Dimed book is even better for those interested in this topic. Frankly there's a lot that people don't think about, mostly having to do with the difficulty of getting jobs when you have nothing to start with. Most of us started off with a supportive family, perhaps some education, perhaps the right skin color and gender. That's a bigger help than we realize.

If you need a place to stay and don't have a job and are forced to start off staying in a motel until you can get a job and then try to work up a security deposit while you're paying to live in a hotel you quickly dig yourself a hole. If you have to spend the day in the emergency room getting help for an injury and get fired from a job, and then have a hospital bill as well as the need to quickly find another job, and you have no savings, surviving becomes harder. That's hard to see when you have a family you can crash with, or you're healthy from years of not having to do hard manual labor.

Basically I think your assumptions Rainmaker, were faulty to begin with. But if the real point of your thread is that you don't want AC Assistance on the federal dollar perhaps you should start that thread.

[Ksyrup]

FORDS

True Michigander speak.

Seriously, though, I hope things get better. A lot of my family in and around Detroit are in really bad shape. My uncle does auto design work and has been in and out of jobs for about 5 years. His own brother (my other uncle) had to lay him off before the company went under, and he's been getting hired and laid off every 6 months or so since then.

[Pumpy Tudors]

As someone who has a liberal arts degree (with honors), and as a sibling of someone with a liberal arts degree, and as someone who knows several other people with liberal arts degrees, I am willing to vouch for at least part of what molson is saying. Please do not assume that a college degree is a ticket to a sure $30k/year or even close to that. When you walk in with a communications degree, an English degree, or a history degree, it is hard as hell to convince a lot of companies to even take your work skills seriously, not to mention convincing them to pay you a decent wage if they do choose you.

It's no accident that it took me four years after graduation to start getting paid what many of you would consider reasonable for a college grad. That's just reality for a lot of people with liberal arts degrees. Hell, it may be reality for people with other degrees, too, but I can only speak for the experiences that I know very well.

[stevew]

Agreed with pumpy-

My wife has a history degree with an education minor and has had a hard time finding too much more than 20k/year jobs in our area. I mean, you can apply for everything, but if you're not getting the call backs it gets frustrating.

Not to mention that if you're making an ok, but not spectacular wage, it's not a good thing to be constantly looking or you could easily spook your current employer and be left with a worse job than you currently have.

[Galaril]

My friend and I were arguing about this over the weekend. I was trying to make a case that it could be done. In fact, my belief is that the whining about this is completely overblown. Now here are the factors in place:

- You can live wherever you want.
- $6.55 an hour and 40 hours a week
- You have health insurance through your company

If I had that, I truly believe I could easily survive. Now life wouldn't be very extravvegent, but I could definitely get by.

I know my wife couldn't.

[molson]

This is the first link I found when googling:

Job Outlook for 2008 Graduates (http://www.black-collegian.com/issues/2ndsem08/job_outlook.htm)

assuming this chart is accurate, you're just way off base.

So the AVERAGE starting liberal arts graduate salary is $34,700, which I think supports what I'm saying. Average salaries are very misleading, because there's a lot of room up from the average, but very little room below the average to give you an accurate picture of what's going on. If you get a bunch of people in the low 20s, and then a smaller number in the 50s-60s or higher, you get an average like $34k. (I wasn't saying that most college graduates are in the 20s, but a lot are, especially those at the lower end of schools and accomplishments, though of course these days, people beyond that are affected as well)

Also, I didn't go further into the methodology of those numbers, but they usually only include those that are working full-time. Many recent college graduates are working PT type jobs, both because of the economy, and really to extend the college years a little by easing their way into the workplace. It also doesn't include those that aren't looking for a job, because they think living off the parents for a little longer is better than working for peanuts (or their spouse can support them)

[MikeVic]

Sure, I done it for the last 5 months ( unemployment ) plus my wife and son have to pitch in. here is the break down....

Me - 275 week unemployment
Wife - 200 week part time ( she has medical )
Son - 175 week part time ( he has medical )

House payment - 950 month
Car payment - 300 month
Elct/Gas - 200 month
Cable/Internet/Phone - 100 month
Food - average family of 5 about 600 month
gas for car 200 month
Car insurance...NONE !!!

Its a family of 5 two kids still in school.

Bank Account long gone, several credit cards maxed and in default.

I also recieve 350 a month in food stamps now, lost on car in Feb so everyone has to share 1 car which is a major pain in the ass. I have had a couple of job offers but because of the distance or hours I couldnt do it with only 1 car.

Michigan is a mother to find a job right now, I am 46 and this is the first time in my life I couldnt find some kind of job in 1 or 2 days. I was at several job offers where I was sitting next to guys that use to make 20+ bucks an hour at FORDS or GM. Its crazy you go to places that expect several years of experiance but dont want to pay more than 8-9 bucks an hour.

So unless things change drasticly I have to look for a cheaper place to live or possibly sell car and get 2 junk cars but than you have repair expences.

Sorry to hear about the financial/job situation. :( One of my biggest fears is being out of a job for any period of time, especially now that I have actual bills and crap that HAVE to be paid. Good luck with future job hunts.

[Galaxy]

One the problems with degrees is that everyone has them. This is in addition it seems like you need one to even get positions that shouldn't require them (or didn't 10-20 years ago). Throw in the cost to get them, it's tough.

[Samdari]

Average salaries are very misleading, because there's a lot of room up from the average, but very little room below the average to give you an accurate picture of what's going on. If you get a bunch of people in the low 20s, and then a smaller number in the 50s-60s or higher, you get an average like $34k.

In general, your reasoning is correct. In regards to starting salaries, probably not so much.

I would say NOBODY with just a liberal arts degree and no experience gets more than 68k as a starting salary. Thus, there is just as much room above than below in this case.

It also is probably dragged down from what people really make by sales jobs. My brother's first job was selling insurance. His salary was $12,000 - but he made over 50k.

EDIT: My first point is backed up somewhat by simple googling. The average starting salary of all new grads in wades link was 46,000. The median was 43,000. This indicates a distribution that is only slightly shifted to the lower end - i.e. roughly equal numbers above and below the mean. It would seem to point to the median starting salary for liberal arts degrees at ~33,000.

A college degree isn't what it used to be (especially one that doesn't bring with it a marketable skill). What kind of job do you guys think an undergrad Psychology or English major with mediocre grades from a crappy school are getting right out of college? There's not much out there..

Well, Wade's data based on actual salaries indicate that a college degree is worth more than ever - at least in terms of raw dollars.

As for what what undergrad psych and English majors make with mediocre grades from crappy schools - sure, they get the bottom of that distribution (someone has to be there you knw). Actually, right now, there is probably nothing for them out there. I would not want to be them right now at all. That's one thing these salaries don't take into account - those who don't get jobs. I never meant to argue that a liberal arts degree was an automatic ticket to a $30,000 job. I think its normally difficult to get a job with that and absolutely brutal this year, but that people who get salaried jobs with l.a. degrees do make quite a bit more than minimum wage.

[DaddyTorgo]

Sure, I done it for the last 5 months ( unemployment ) plus my wife and son have to pitch in. here is the break down....

Me - 275 week unemployment
Wife - 200 week part time ( she has medical )
Son - 175 week part time ( he has medical )

House payment - 950 month
Car payment - 300 month
Elct/Gas - 200 month
Cable/Internet/Phone - 100 month
Food - average family of 5 about 600 month
gas for car 200 month
Car insurance...NONE !!!

Its a family of 5 two kids still in school.

Bank Account long gone, several credit cards maxed and in default.

I also recieve 350 a month in food stamps now, lost on car in Feb so everyone has to share 1 car which is a major pain in the ass. I have had a couple of job offers but because of the distance or hours I couldnt do it with only 1 car.

Michigan is a mother to find a job right now, I am 46 and this is the first time in my life I couldnt find some kind of job in 1 or 2 days. I was at several job offers where I was sitting next to guys that use to make 20+ bucks an hour at FORDS or GM. Its crazy you go to places that expect several years of experiance but dont want to pay more than 8-9 bucks an hour.

So unless things change drasticly I have to look for a cheaper place to live or possibly sell car and get 2 junk cars but than you have repair expences.

:(

damn man. let us know if there's anything we can do. what's your field?

[molson]

.

I would say NOBODY with just a liberal arts degree and no experience gets more than 68k as a starting salary. Thus, there is just as much room above than below in this case.



It can happen with family businesses and top graduates from elite schools who work in major metro areas. It doesn't take much to skew those numbers upwards.

[JonInMiddleGA]

$10/hour is pretty common for administrative office-type jobs (many of which are filled with college graduates). That's about $21,000/year.

Matches what I know about it anecdotally. Lots of file clerks with a degree to hang on their office wall (if they ever have an office wall to hang it on that is).

And to go along with my $10/hr fast food workers here, that's also what office clerical workers, AP/AR workers, accounting clerks, etc are getting paid too.

[CU Tiger]

$10/hour is pretty common for administrative office-type jobs (many of which are filled with college graduates). That's about $21,000/year.

A college degree isn't what it used to be (especially one that doesn't bring with it a marketable skill). What kind of job do you guys think an undergrad Psychology or English major with mediocre grades from a crappy school are getting right out of college? There's not much out there.


I agree on the first part that I know plenty of 4 year degreed secretaries, construction workers, etc. making $10/hour.
<br/>
However what I think you may be overlooking is that while to someone making 100k/year there seems to be little difference between $10/hr ($21kannually) and min wage.
<br/>
21k represents a 30+% pay raise from min wage.

[lordscarlet]

Even if we accept molson's point of view on starting salaries, how is $10/hr plus benefits anywhere close to comparable to $7.50 without benefits? I am assumign a filing clerk gets benefits, but in dollars alone that is, by molson's numbers. That's 33% more than minimum wage. I don't really see how you can compare the two. That also likely guarantees a 40 work week's worth of pay, whereas many minimum wage jobs can not guarantee that.

[molson]

Ya, there definitely is some difference (less so when you factor in the cost of college and spending 4 years out of the workforce), but I guess I was thinking about it in the context of wondering how much higher people think minimum wage needs to be to create a "livable" wage? Any meaningful increase would push it ever-closer to those low-level administrative jobs. Maybe then those salaries would need to go up to attract graduates (assuming someone with a degree is even desired for those kinds of jobs), but then what does that do to the unemployment numbers?

[JeeberD]

Sure, I done it for the last 5 months ( unemployment ) plus my wife and son have to pitch in. here is the break down....

Me - 275 week unemployment
Wife - 200 week part time ( she has medical )
Son - 175 week part time ( he has medical )

House payment - 950 month
Car payment - 300 month
Elct/Gas - 200 month
Cable/Internet/Phone - 100 month
Food - average family of 5 about 600 month
gas for car 200 month
Car insurance...NONE !!!


So I feel kind of like a dick (or Jon) for saying this, but if money is so tight that you can't afford to keep your auto insurance, don't you think it's time for the cable and internet to go? I would much rather deal with a lack of entertainment than get hit with a ticket for not having insurance...

[lordscarlet]

So I feel kind of like a dick (or Jon) for saying this, but if money is so tight that you can't afford to keep your auto insurance, don't you think it's time for the cable and internet to go? I would much rather deal with a lack of entertainment than get hit with a ticket for not having insurance...

You definitely weren't the only one thinking this. I don't want to do what RainMaker is doing, though, and act like it is easy to figure out unless you're in that situation. However, I think cable and interent would be the first to go if I found myself in that situation. Particularly because I have a laptop and can go somewhere with free wifi if necessary. There's also the library. I don't know -- if I have a family of 5 and I'm struggling to get by, things that prevent catastrophic costs are more important to me than entertainment. But you know your finances and willingness to take risks better than we do.

[Ksyrup]

Is it that easy to go without car insurance? Here, every year we have to pay for registration and must show proof of insurance. Are people faking it, or do most states not require that?

[JeeberD]

It's required in Texas. Hell, Dallas now has a system where they can run a cars plates and find out if it's insured or not...

[larrymcg421]

The biug red flag I see is not just the lack of auto insurance, but that he also has a car payment. You are taking a big risk, because if the lender finds out, they will come and take your car.

[molson]

All states require some minimum liability insurance. You can risk yourself and your property by going without collision and comprehensive (though as larrymcg321 pointed out, your leaseholder probably requires it), but you can't put others at risk of your driving mistakes.

[Samdari]

Is it that easy to go without car insurance? Here, every year we have to pay for registration and must show proof of insurance. Are people faking it, or do most states not require that?

You cannot mail in your registration? Or do it over the web? Most states you do.

Most places you have to show proof of insurance to register, but not to renew. Most places also do two year registrations now, so you could make one monthly insurance payment, get proof, and then drive uninsured for the next 23 months, or until you get stopped for something.

The insurance company will notify your state agency when they cancel your insurance, but that's just an entry in a computer database, they don't send cops out to apprehend uninsured motorists.

Even at the end of your 23 month registration, you could just not renew (since in most places driving un unregistered vehicle is less serious than uninsured). You'd still have tags, and be very unlikely to be caught, unless there was a spot check, or you got stopped for some other reason.

[lordscarlet]

I got into an accident when I was 16 and my insurance had lapsed. It's not a good idea. I got off easy because the court never found out, but it's a BAD idea. At least in Virginia there can be heavy penalties for driving uninsured (I'm pretty sure there are in every state, really). Virginia requires you to at least pay the state $400 to make sure the other person isn't screwed when you hit them.

[CU Tiger]

All states require some minimum liability insurance. You can risk yourself and your property by going without collision and comprehensive (though as larrymcg321 pointed out, your leaseholder probably requires it), but you can't put others at risk of your driving mistakes.

Not all states.
<br/>
In SC you can pay a 1 time $500 fee and choose to be uninsured. But you agree to be personally liable for any damages.

[lordscarlet]

Not all states.


In SC you can pay a 1 time $500 fee and choose to be uninsured. But you agree to be personally liable for any damages.

I believe (but could be mistaken) that that is minimal liability, though, because it gives some protection to the person you hit. I could be wrong, though. In VA it's called an "uninsured motorist" fee.

[CU Tiger]

I believe (but could be mistaken) that that is minimal liability, though, because it gives some protection to the person you hit. I could be wrong, though. In VA it's called an "uninsured motorist" fee.


No you can pay the state $500 1 time and never carry even liability insurance again on any vehicle you own. The fee is a documentation fee for them to keep track of your ass anytime you buy a vehicle....

[Pumpy Tudors]

With regards to the whole "person making minimum wage vs. college grad making $10/hour" thing, here's how I see it: The attainable standard of living is damn near the same for both people. Nobody is living a lot better on $21k/year than they are on $15k/year, particularly if you're trying to support more than one person on that income. Be it $21k or $15k, you're still just scraping by. I think it is certainly fair to say that minimum wage is "not much less" than some liberal arts grads are making because there's not much difference in what they're able to do with their money.

To make up an example (and I am just making this up - I am not saying that anyone here has said this - are you listening, internet?):

Sure, it might be easy for someone who makes $75k to say "Well, if I had an extra $6k/year, I could take a vacation or buy a new computer. You can do a lot with $6k extra." What's that $6k mean to someone making minimum wage? Maybe they can afford a little more variety in their dinners. Maybe they can afford to keep up with the maintenance on their car a little more properly (assuming they have a car). Just maybe they're getting a cell phone or basic cable. That additional money is not going to any grand luxuries, though. So my stance is that the person making $10.00/hour is not doing a whole lot better than the person making minimum wage, regardless of how big of a percentage difference there is in salary.

Now, yes, it is somewhat likely that the person making minimum wage is not getting 40 hours per week, but I'm trying to stick at least somewhat to the original topic here. To do that, I'm going to work within the constraints of the post that started this thread, in which it was stated that you're working 40 hours per week with medical benefits through your job. So, given the stated constraints, I just think there ain't much difference between minimum wage and $10/hour.

[CamEdwards]

How long ago was this? $6.65 ain't what it used to be.

1997. I can assure you it wasn't much then either. I had a beat up car that was paid for, our rent on the top half of a falling down house was $400 per month. We did not have air conditioning, we did not have cable... heck, we didn't even have a frame for our first bed. It sucked. It also motivated me to work my &*$#ing ass off, and now twelve years later I'd consider us to be upper middle class. Minimum wage isn't an economic death sentence, as long as you avoid too many stupid mistakes and are willing to work long and hard to get out of a minimum wage job.

[OldGiants]

For comparison purposes, illiterate ditch diggers (Senior Utility Workers, officially, but that's what they do) average around 27k.

And I know they are illiterate because a small part of my job is to train them to use the computer so they can record their hours in the new time and attendance system I'm helping to install. There's one guy in each crew who signs everyone in to class and then I log every one on ("Oh, you forgot your password? Let me help." wink wink.)

Obviously they aren't going to it, but we need to go through the motions.

[larrymcg421]

1997. I can assure you it wasn't much then either. I had a beat up car that was paid for, our rent on the top half of a falling down house was $400 per month. We did not have air conditioning, we did not have cable... heck, we didn't even have a frame for our first bed. It sucked. It also motivated me to work my &*$#ing ass off, and now twelve years later I'd consider us to be upper middle class. Minimum wage isn't an economic death sentence, as long as you avoid too many stupid mistakes and are willing to work long and hard to get out of a minimum wage job.

6.65 in 1997 converts to 8.89 in 2008. That's a pretty significant difference, I think.

And one medical emergency completely fucks all of that up. And all of the hard work might not do you much good if the company decides to lay off/close stores/etc. Then you're fucked because you have no savings.

[k0ruptr]

As far the car insurance thing goes, I know some people that have welfare benefits at least here in hawaii, the government will take care of your car insurance too if you are low income. So maybe he was saying he just didn't pay insurance, but still has it.

[Autumn]

6.65 in 1997 converts to 8.89 in 2008. That's a pretty significant difference, I think.

And one medical emergency completely fucks all of that up. And all of the hard work might not do you much good if the company decides to lay off/close stores/etc. Then you're fucked because you have no savings.

Yes, this debate doesn't need to be polar. Of course plenty of people work their way up from crappy jobs and crappy lives to climb up the economic ladder. And yes, hard work and determination is important. That doesn't have to mean that we assume the only difference between people who do that and people who don't is how hard they work. Not everybody's in the same situation or has the same luck or chances, even if they're both working low-paying jobs. As I've stated above a lot depends on where you start, for one, and what sort of external support you have. A lot of people can't even dream of paying security deposit on even a crappy place to live. That's a hard hole to climb out of, and just one of many that a person can find themselves in.

[Schmidty]

Minimum wage

+

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_2LuozboEJ5g/SH-u97tT1XI/AAAAAAAAAio/yaIZfcr3Gvc/s400/homeless1.jpg

=

Semi-survival.

[Danny]

Not everyone has the same abilities or intelligence either. Some people work their butts off, but aren't capable of moving up like others. I do believe if you work hard you should be able earn a livable wage.

[molson]

Not everyone has the same abilities or intelligence either. Some people work their butts off, but aren't capable of moving up like others. I do believe if you work hard you should be able earn a livable wage.

What would you consider a livable wage in the U.S. right now?

Ya, ideally, there could be a "minimum working hard wage", but that's not really possible.

The people with better abilities and intelligence should be better off. I think it's problematic when they drift too low towards the bottom and are just combined in this giant blob of lower-level workers.

[Autumn]

Not everyone has the same abilities or intelligence either. Some people work their butts off, but aren't capable of moving up like others. I do believe if you work hard you should be able earn a livable wage.

Exactly. There are jobs that I'd be able to get that others couldn't, jobs they could get that I can't. I might be able to understand the job and move up in management, someone else may not have the abilities to do that.

Also, the OP allowed the person to live anywhere, but in reality most people are constrained by where they live, most cannot afford to move or don't wish to. And that can put someone in a hole depending on where they are.

[Autumn]

I used to live in Vermont, which has a very active livable wage campaign. The legislature had a detailed analysis done to determine a livable wage for people in different situations:

2008 Livable Wage Figures (http://www.vtlivablewage.org/updatedlivablewagefigures.html)

[thesloppy]

Purely anecdotal, and only semi-related, but the more a job has paid me, generally the easier the work, and the less of it I am expected to produce.

[larrymcg421]

Yeah, I'd say I work about 1/5th as hard as the average minimum wage worker.

[thesloppy]

Only semi-related again, but this topic and some of the responses remind me of people (stupid friends, of which I have many) who insist that panhandlers are calculating scam artists, making $200 an hour, and living it up when out-of-sight.

Regardless of if that dude makes $5000 dollars an hour, he is still a fucking bum, who spends twelve hours a day standing on an overpass with a cardboard sign, begging people for money, and/or rooting through people's trash for bottle returns. He likely sleeps under a bridge, spends all of his time with other depressed, homeless and/or mentally ill people, and drinks himself to sleep at night on crappy fortified apple wine. He's not really 'pulling a fast one' on you, and even if he somehow manages to magically panhandle for 10 times your income, the salient point should still be that he is a bum, his life sucks, and you would never ever change places with him.

I feel much the same about minimum wage workers. They're getting paid for work done, and I don't think we even have the right to talk about "the ones who work hard" because there are plenty of people who work just-hard-enough in every sector or class, and so long as your working hard enough to keep your job, that's really all that should be expected of you (from me and joe public, at least, your employer may not agree), regardless of your wage. If some dude is mailing it in every single soul-sucking shift he has at McDonalds, doing just barely enough to keep his job, and then he takes every bit of his disposable income and dumps it entirely into luxury items, more power to him. Sounds like half the people I know, except for the wage. Now, I will agree that those are some very low standards, and perhaps now is the time for America to tighten-her-belt/pick-herself-up-by-her-bootstraps/your-grandfathers-favorite-cliche-goes-here, but there's no good reason that burden should start (and apparently end) with the folks making the LEAST amount of money.

[JonInMiddleGA]

He likely sleeps under a bridge, spends all of his time with other depressed, homeless and/or mentally ill people, and drinks himself to sleep at night on crappy fortified apple wine.

I believe the documented cases of successful scam artists tend to go back to an apartment as nice or nicer than the suckers who gave them money.

... doing just barely enough to keep his job, and then he takes every bit of his disposable income and dumps it entirely into luxury items, more power to him.

Right up until he looks to take cash from other people at gunpoint, i.e. via the government. At that point, fuck him & the horse he rode in on. Matter of fact, in that case, skullfuck his corpse too.

[RainMaker]

Tell that to the 739 people that died in Chicago in July of 1995 due to heat. On average, 400 Americans die of heat every year, which is higher on average than the number of people that die from tornadoes, earthquakes, and floods combined. 6,200 Americans are hospitalized every year due to heat, most of those are (you guessed it) poor, uninsured or elderly. I would imagine that we are picking up those hospital bills.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heatwave)

That's an extremely complex event where little accurate data exists. The 739 number was just the number of deaths above the average. It includes people who died of heat stroke who were both inside and outside. Unfortunately heat will always kill people whether it's in their home or at a high school football practice. Unfortunately in Chicago, we don't have the experience that many down South have with this kind of heat. Just as an inch of snow down South can set off Armagedeon.

The deaths were primarily elderly who I have no problem with helping get A/C. But the issue wasn't necessarily lack of A/C, it was the fact that many in crime ridden areas were too afraid to leave their windows open at night. An A/C would have helped in that position, but so would having less crime in their neighborhoods.

Since that time the city has implemented cooling centers throughout the city as well as services that will pick up and check on elderly people and get them to a cooling center. We aren't setup like 1995 anymore.

We differ on what a necessity is. I certainly would agree that for the elderly and some others with disabilities or conditions, A/C is a necessity. But I don't think the average person "needs" A/C to survive. I lived many years in my life without air conditioning and while it can suck, I learned to adapt and get by. I'd imagine many of your parents and grandparents lived without it for good portions of their lives.

[RainMaker]

40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year @ 7.25 per hour is:

$15080

The only way degreed people make that is if they end up flipping burgers. If they take entry level but career track jobs, they've got to make 30, don't they?

You have to add in other factors though. The minimum wage worker is getting Earned Income Credit (especially if they have a kid). They are not paying any income taxes at all as opposed to the guy making $30k. The minimum wage person also potentially qualifies for food stamps and other government assistance programs. At the end of the day, it may look a lot closer than it is.

[thesloppy]

I believe the documented cases of successful scam artists tend to go back to an apartment as nice or nicer than the suckers who gave them money.

Well, I'd guess in those cases, the apartment would be nicer, and their friends would then be other scam artists and/or scammees. But their job still consists of begging for money in public for hours a day. I suppose the life of a scam artist pretending to be a bum might be better than that of a bum, but it would be a matter of degrees, and I certainly don't expect those people are anywhere near healthy and happy either. Even with the promise of a six figure income and a nice apartment, I don't think anybody (happy and healthy) would gladly take on either role.

Right up until he looks to take cash from other people at gunpoint, i.e. via the government. At that point, fuck him & the horse he rode in on. Matter of fact, in that case, skullfuck his corpse too.

Agree with you there, but I think minimum wage on it's own is still a separate issue.....assistance, on the other hand, is hard to separate from minimum wage. It's like Dr. Seuss'es Star Bellied Sneeches. Just about everybody on assistance is making minimum wage (assuming they're working at all), but that doesn't mean that the majority of minimum wage workers are on assistance (admittedly, I have no idea what those numbers are).

[DaddyTorgo]

so 3 pages in we've all pretty much rebuffed your initial question RainMaker, and yet you're still at it hmm?

[RainMaker]

I think we've finally gotten to your point here. If your definition of surviving is living like a poor Central American family, then yes, you can survive on minimum wage.
Isn't that a tad racist though? That because we are American we can't possibly put ourselves down to the level of a Central American in this country? We can't car pool to work, have multiple roommates, or grow our own vegetables in our backyard?

[Autumn]

Right up until he looks to take cash from other people at gunpoint, i.e. via the government. At that point, fuck him & the horse he rode in on. Matter of fact, in that case, skullfuck his corpse too.

I'm much more worried myself about all the rich fucks who work less than the working poor, yet make much, much more off of the government.

The bum on the rods is a social flea
Who gets an occasional bite;
The bum on the plush is a social leech,
Blood-sucking day and night.

As was said before, I think most of the poor who have minimum wage jobs are trying at least as hard as the rest of us. We're not talking about "welfare mothers" here, we're talking about people with a job trying to make ends meet. I'd rather throw them a bone than the bums on teh plush.

[RainMaker]

so 3 pages in we've all pretty much rebuffed your initial question RainMaker, and yet you're still at it hmm?
I was able to live on less than minimum wage for a few years. I honestly feel I could do it again if I had to. Some roommates in a shitty place, public transportation, no luxuries, and a budgeted diet.

[JonInMiddleGA]

As was said before, I think most of the poor who have minimum wage jobs are trying at least as hard as the rest of us.

My experience has been to the contrary, YMMV of course.

Some are, without a doubt, several specific examples come to my mind right off the bat. But I don't agree with "most", not even close.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Isn't that a tad racist though? That because we are American we can't possibly put ourselves down to the level of a Central American in this country?

I don't think that's so much racist (as the phrase simply seemed to be a convenient shorthand most everybody would understand with no malice intended) as realist.

What that descriptive phrase brings to mind is a significant increase in both violent crime & the suicide rate in the U.S. if you applied it broadly. I already have to ask myself whether it's worth continuing to breath every day under better circumstances than that, I don't know if I'd like to see the answer to the question otherwise.

[RainMaker]

This is where your relativism falls apart. Why do you assume Mexican immigrants are unskilled just because they are working unskilled jobs?

Nothing to do with Mexican immigrants. Typically if you are working a minimum wage job, you are probably unskilled. I'm not talking about someone working minimum wage to get by temporarily if they are out of work or in a career change. I'm talking about people who can only find those kind of jobs.

[King of New York]

Back in the late 1980s, I worked a series of factory jobs to help pay for college.

About 3/4 of the other workers were central Americans, probably illegals. They showed up on time, every day--the least hard-working of them were rock-solid responsible, and the most motivated worked like lunatics.

I found that the older whites and blacks worked hard, too--the younger ones, though, not so much, and a lot of it had to do with alcohol and drugs.

As they say, YMMV--it was just a couple of factories, and my hometown certainly had problems with MS-13 and other gangs, but I never thought about immigration in the same way again.

[thesloppy]

My apologies if some people find this racist, but I don't think any part of America should be using any part of Central America's living standards as a goal. Yes, we are supposed to be above that level of living as a country, and even if we're not, we should certainly be aiming beyond that level, rather than setting our goals at our neighbor's lowest common denominator, and below our current standard of living. As a country, personally I think one of our ultimate goals should be to enable/promote the best standard of living for as many of our residents as possible.

[Autumn]

My experience has been to the contrary, YMMV of course.

Some are, without a doubt, several specific examples come to my mind right off the bat. But I don't agree with "most", not even close.

Yeah, my experience has been that people who aren't hard workers and going to be stuck working mulitple minimum wage jobs -- they just won't work. Why bother when ther'es welfare for family or friends. If someone is actually supporting themselves and/or a family and working for near nothing I've found it's because they're trying to get somewhere.

[BigDawg]

That would be your first thought the cable/internet goes but first its all one package Cable/internet/phone. Since most job applications are done online plus working on resume and sending it email to people . than the phone incase SOMEONE calls you for a job.

Hell I jump every time the phone rings but its usally a bill collector.

Than with 4 kids if I had no internet/cable we would have to play board games all day and if you have kids from age 13 to 21 you know what would happen they drive you nuts...LOL

No "welfare" does not pay for car insurance or car payment for that matter, they gave me some food stamps but are reluctant to help with anything else because their is income comming in. I would have to get an eviction notice before they would step in and help.

I went 4 months with no insurance but recently got your basic coverage since kids are driving the car, of course the bank is bitching I dont have FULL COVERAGE on the car now.

Realy this situation has allowed my kids to HELP and its probibly the best way for them to learn what it takes to support yourself, its kind of cool to see one of them with the little extra money they have left over buy their sibling a birthday gift without anyone asking them, not many kids now a days would do that.

If they learn anything thru all of this is that FAMILY takes care of each other first and screw everyone else.

[DaddyTorgo]

That would be your first thought the cable/internet goes but first its all one package Cable/internet/phone. Since most job applications are done online plus working on resume and sending it email to people . than the phone incase SOMEONE calls you for a job.

Hell I jump every time the phone rings but its usally a bill collector.

Than with 4 kids if I had no internet/cable we would have to play board games all day and if you have kids from age 13 to 21 you know what would happen they drive you nuts...LOL

No "welfare" does not pay for car insurance or car payment for that matter, they gave me some food stamps but are reluctant to help with anything else because their is income comming in. I would have to get an eviction notice before they would step in and help.

I went 4 months with no insurance but recently got your basic coverage since kids are driving the car, of course the bank is bitching I dont have FULL COVERAGE on the car now.

Realy this situation has allowed my kids to HELP and its probibly the best way for them to learn what it takes to support yourself, its kind of cool to see one of them with the little extra money they have left over buy their sibling a birthday gift without anyone asking them, not many kids now a days would do that.

If they learn anything thru all of this is that FAMILY takes care of each other first and screw everyone else.

very true.

[RainMaker]

My apologies if some people find this racist, but I don't think any part of America should be using any part of Central America's living standards as a goal. Yes, we are supposed to be above that level of living as a country, and even if we're not, we should certainly be aiming beyond that level, rather than setting our goals at our neighbor's lowest common denominator, and below our current standard of living. As a country, personally I think one of our ultimate goals should be to enable/promote the best standard of living for as many of our residents as possible.

I'm not alluding to how they live down there. No one wants clay huts and dirty water. I'm talking about how they live in the U.S. They are fiscally responsible, stretch their dollar as far as it goes, and work their asses off.

[CU Tiger]

Only semi-related again, but this topic and some of the responses remind me of people (stupid friends, of which I have many) who insist that panhandlers are calculating scam artists, making $200 an hour, and living it up when out-of-sight.

Regardless of if that dude makes $5000 dollars an hour, he is still a fucking bum, who spends twelve hours a day standing on an overpass with a cardboard sign, begging people for money, and/or rooting through people's trash for bottle returns. He likely sleeps under a bridge, spends all of his time with other depressed, homeless and/or mentally ill people, and drinks himself to sleep at night on crappy fortified apple wine. He's not really 'pulling a fast one' on you, and even if he somehow manages to magically panhandle for 10 times your income, the salient point should still be that he is a bum, his life sucks, and you would never ever change places with him.




i can show you a guy right now in Charlotte, NC that drives a 5 series BMW, parks in a wal mart parking lot....walks a scant .25 miles and begs all day. We often mee up in this same parking lot and I buy some of my guys breakfast at an IHOP, we have watched him daily, every time we are there. Gets out in jeans and a t shirt, adds some top rags and grabs his sign out of his trunk...
<br/>

I pulled up to him one day on the exit ramp he hangs out on, and rolled the window down, held a $100 out and said if you empty your pockets for me its yours....he pulled out a few dollars and some crackers and a prayer book someone handed him. I asked for the "bimmer keys" he smiled and said, "get on outta here its bad for business"
<br/>

Of course not all are this way but I know one that is.

[Danny]

i can show you a guy right now in Charlotte, NC that drives a 5 series BMW, parks in a wal mart parking lot....walks a scant .25 miles and begs all day. We often mee up in this same parking lot and I buy some of my guys breakfast at an IHOP, we have watched him daily, every time we are there. Gets out in jeans and a t shirt, adds some top rags and grabs his sign out of his trunk...
<br/>

I pulled up to him one day on the exit ramp he hangs out on, and rolled the window down, held a $100 out and said if you empty your pockets for me its yours....he pulled out a few dollars and some crackers and a prayer book someone handed him. I asked for the "bimmer keys" he smiled and said, "get on outta here its bad for business"
<br/>

Of course not all are this way but I know one that is.

Which is why you should verify they pass the smell test before giving out any money

[DaddyTorgo]

i can show you a guy right now in Charlotte, NC that drives a 5 series BMW, parks in a wal mart parking lot....walks a scant .25 miles and begs all day. We often mee up in this same parking lot and I buy some of my guys breakfast at an IHOP, we have watched him daily, every time we are there. Gets out in jeans and a t shirt, adds some top rags and grabs his sign out of his trunk...



I pulled up to him one day on the exit ramp he hangs out on, and rolled the window down, held a $100 out and said if you empty your pockets for me its yours....he pulled out a few dollars and some crackers and a prayer book someone handed him. I asked for the "bimmer keys" he smiled and said, "get on outta here its bad for business"



Of course not all are this way but I know one that is.

that's crazy!

[thesloppy]

i can show you a guy right now in Charlotte, NC that drives a 5 series BMW, parks in a wal mart parking lot....walks a scant .25 miles and begs all day. We often mee up in this same parking lot and I buy some of my guys breakfast at an IHOP, we have watched him daily, every time we are there. Gets out in jeans and a t shirt, adds some top rags and grabs his sign out of his trunk...
<br/>


As I said to Jon, even these dudes, as the extreme exception to the thousands of panhandlers who genuinely are sleeping under bridges, are still spending every day all day begging on a street corner, and a life and relationships built around spending all day begging on a street corner, pretending to be a bum. He sounds like king of the panhadlers, and I may envy the dude's car, or his other possessions, but I still don't want any piece of his life.

[Radii]

Which is why you should verify they pass the smell test before giving out any money

total side story to the main thread, but when I was at Georgia Tech I would pass 2-5 people begging for money on the way to the train station every day. For awhile I gave some change away on occasion but quickly became jaded with that whole idea. The Varsity was on one side of the street and there was a BP station on the other. If I had the time and cash on hand I would turn down the request for money but offer to buy a snack/small meal instead. One of the beggars took me up on it and we went into the Varsity and I got him a burger and fries. All others turned me down, "I don't need food man, I need money"

(Atlantans insert jokes about Varsity food here)

[CamEdwards]

6.65 in 1997 converts to 8.89 in 2008. That's a pretty significant difference, I think.

And one medical emergency completely fucks all of that up. And all of the hard work might not do you much good if the company decides to lay off/close stores/etc. Then you're fucked because you have no savings.

Yep. There are no guarantees in life, and sometimes really shitty things happen to really good people. My mom grew up dirt-ass poor (didn't even live in a house with running water until after she graduated high school), eventually raised three kids with my father in a nice middle-class lifestyle, did even better after they divorced, only to lose it all when I was 18. For the last 15 years of her life she lived in a series of smaller and smaller apartments, went from a Cadillac to a entry-level Saturn, and eventually declared bankruptcy a week before she died of pancreatic cancer.

That's life, unfortunately.

[JeeberD]

That would be your first thought the cable/internet goes but first its all one package Cable/internet/phone. Since most job applications are done online plus working on resume and sending it email to people . than the phone incase SOMEONE calls you for a job.

Hell I jump every time the phone rings but its usally a bill collector.

Than with 4 kids if I had no internet/cable we would have to play board games all day and if you have kids from age 13 to 21 you know what would happen they drive you nuts...LOL

No "welfare" does not pay for car insurance or car payment for that matter, they gave me some food stamps but are reluctant to help with anything else because their is income comming in. I would have to get an eviction notice before they would step in and help.

I went 4 months with no insurance but recently got your basic coverage since kids are driving the car, of course the bank is bitching I dont have FULL COVERAGE on the car now.

Realy this situation has allowed my kids to HELP and its probibly the best way for them to learn what it takes to support yourself, its kind of cool to see one of them with the little extra money they have left over buy their sibling a birthday gift without anyone asking them, not many kids now a days would do that.

If they learn anything thru all of this is that FAMILY takes care of each other first and screw everyone else.

Is there a public library near you? They surely have computers where you can work on your resume, e-mail it off, and fill out applications. And they carry these things called books, which are great for kids. And of course they also have videos and DVDs, though not usually of the latest releases.

And while the internet/cable/phone are bundled, surely you can break the bundle and save at least a little money. Maybe even ditch the phone as well and get a cheap cell? I dunno. Like was said before, you surely know what's best for your family and I'm an outsider looking in. I'm sorry that you and your family are in the situation that you're in...

[CU Tiger]

As I said to Jon, even these dudes, as the extreme exception to the thousands of panhandlers who genuinely are sleeping under bridges, are still spending every day all day begging on a street corner, and a life and relationships built around spending all day begging on a street corner, pretending to be a bum. He sounds like king of the panhadlers, and I may envy the dude's car, or his other possessions, but I still don't want any piece of his life.

Thinking about this, it ties back into the "does your job define you thread". Most get up, go work 7-12 hours/day then come home to your life. Seems to me in a lot of ways we sell our bodies and our time in exchange for life goodies and toys. I can almost imagine this dude laughing over a cold beer with his friends talking about a tough day at the office...And these guys sit on exit ramps and hold a sign, a far cry from laying on a sidewalk and even interacting with your contributors.

[sterlingice]

As someone who has a liberal arts degree (with honors), and as a sibling of someone with a liberal arts degree, and as someone who knows several other people with liberal arts degrees, I am willing to vouch for at least part of what molson is saying. Please do not assume that a college degree is a ticket to a sure $30k/year or even close to that. When you walk in with a communications degree, an English degree, or a history degree, it is hard as hell to convince a lot of companies to even take your work skills seriously, not to mention convincing them to pay you a decent wage if they do choose you.

It's no accident that it took me four years after graduation to start getting paid what many of you would consider reasonable for a college grad. That's just reality for a lot of people with liberal arts degrees. Hell, it may be reality for people with other degrees, too, but I can only speak for the experiences that I know very well.

My wife is in the same boat as well. She's very good at her job as an editor but it's a skill just not that highly valued money-wise.

This is the first link I found when googling:

Job Outlook for 2008 Graduates (http://www.black-collegian.com/issues/2ndsem08/job_outlook.htm)

assuming this chart is accurate, you're just way off base.

If I'm looking at the wording there, that survey doesn't read as they are trying to portray. It claims that's the starting salary companies claim to give to people who have bachelor's degrees. But that could be a starting salary they hand to someone who has 10 years of experience who also has a bachelor's degree.

However, it's not the average starting salary for people coming out of college, walking right into a job. And it sure as hell doesn't measure the legions of college grads that I know who are excitedly plying their trade at places like Panera and Target because no one else is hiring.

I know I've never personally made $50K a year with my computer science degree. If I had moved out to the west coast, I probably could have gotten that but I would have had crushing bills to offset the increase in pay and never would have paid off my student loans as I'm about to.

When I got out of college, I bounced around for about a year and a half before getting a job even remotely related to my field and I have one of the "high demand" degrees.

SI

[clemsonfan]

I barely made $10/hr after I graduated from Clemson with a history degree. When I quit work to stay at home with my kids and go back to school, I made $12.75/hr.

[wade moore]

I know I've never personally made $50K a year with my computer science degree. If I had moved out to the west coast, I probably could have gotten that but I would have had crushing bills to offset the increase in pay and never would have paid off my student loans as I'm about to.

No offense, but I find it shocking that at, I'm guessing, 5+ years out of college and a CS degree, you haven't made 50k+. Keep in mind I know the market you live in - I find that completely shocking.

[lordscarlet]

For comparison purposes, illiterate ditch diggers (Senior Utility Workers, officially, but that's what they do) average around 27k.

And I know they are illiterate because a small part of my job is to train them to use the computer so they can record their hours in the new time and attendance system I'm helping to install. There's one guy in each crew who signs everyone in to class and then I log every one on ("Oh, you forgot your password? Let me help." wink wink.)

Obviously they aren't going to it, but we need to go through the motions.

I'm not quite sure how not knowing how to use a computer makes someone illiterate. Are they unable to read the words on the screen?


I know I've never personally made $50K a year with my computer science degree. If I had moved out to the west coast, I probably could have gotten that but I would have had crushing bills to offset the increase in pay and never would have paid off my student loans as I'm about to.

When I got out of college, I bounced around for about a year and a half before getting a job even remotely related to my field and I have one of the "high demand" degrees.


So, I want ot tread likely here, as with the response regarding BigDawg's situation, particularly because I like you a lot and hope to hit up a Nats' game with you :), but I'm with Wade a little bit here. I have been very fortunate in my life and have made some risky decisions that have, thus far, been beneficial. Having said that, my first full time programming job I had two years of college and no experience (outside of an internship) and I was offered $50k (I took $45k + stock options). Here I am 10 years later and I have never had a job under $50k and I never got a degree. I have surpassed that number by quite a bit, I am living in my second house (condo) in a major city in a good neighborhood. I didn't have to move to the west coast and I am not underneath a cloud of debt (the only debt I have is my mortgage).

FWIW, if you just go up 95 a bit you would live in one of the best cities for tech jobs. The 10 Best Cities to Find Tech Jobs - PC World (http://www.pcworld.com/printable/article/id,164924/printable.html)

I don't mean to either brag or put you down, but I wonder if a relocation would help in anyway -- certainly you have to check cost of living and whether you would be happy in another area, but never making over $50k seems very low to me.

[RendeR]

I was able to live on less than minimum wage for a few years. I honestly feel I could do it again if I had to. Some roommates in a shitty place, public transportation, no luxuries, and a budgeted diet.


You seem to keep missing the point. When you add in ROOM MATES you are no longer living on YOUR minimum wage RM. You're undercutting the cost of living entirely by doing so.

Surviving on min wage means using anything and everything to make ends meet, so you could survive that way, sure.

Living is not surviving, living is having your own life on your own terms in your own place without having to rely on room mates or parents or anyone else to pay the excess in your bills.

You cannot LIVE on Min wage in this country.

[RainMaker]

You seem to keep missing the point. When you add in ROOM MATES you are no longer living on YOUR minimum wage RM. You're undercutting the cost of living entirely by doing so.

Surviving on min wage means using anything and everything to make ends meet, so you could survive that way, sure.

Living is not surviving, living is having your own life on your own terms in your own place without having to rely on room mates or parents or anyone else to pay the excess in your bills.

You cannot LIVE on Min wage in this country.

No one requires you to live on your own in your own place. If you are making minimum wage in this country, you shouldn't be living by yourself. I still think you can "live" and have a couple roommates.

[CamEdwards]

You seem to keep missing the point. When you add in ROOM MATES you are no longer living on YOUR minimum wage RM. You're undercutting the cost of living entirely by doing so.

Surviving on min wage means using anything and everything to make ends meet, so you could survive that way, sure.

Living is not surviving, living is having your own life on your own terms in your own place without having to rely on room mates or parents or anyone else to pay the excess in your bills.

You cannot LIVE on Min wage in this country.

Your definition of "living" would seem to preclude government assistance as well. Or is it fine for the taxpayers to chip in and help you live your life on your terms, as long as you're not relying on roommates or parents?

[lordscarlet]

I can't agree with you on that one, RendeR. Living with others and splitting costs is a compeltely acceptable way to live on minimum wage. I need to do some research (which probably wont' happen) on the different tax brackets before addressing a lot of what RM has to say, though.

[thesloppy]

I'm not quite sure how not knowing how to use a computer makes someone illiterate. Are they unable to read the words on the screen?


I kinda wondered about that too....I mean once you log the guy in, he's still illiterate, I'd think his password would be just the first of many stumbling blocks. But maybe they're just logging in to play a Blues Clues game, or watch Baby Genius videos.

[Autumn]

I saw an interesting article in our local paper today about health care statistics. It made me think of this thread. It stated that in my state the average person pays over $15K a year for their health plan, which it stated was about equivalent to a year's salary on minimum wage.

I think health care is the biggest problem in this issue. When you're young, single and willing to go without it, things get a lot easier.

[sterlingice]

I can't agree with you on that one, RendeR. Living with others and splitting costs is a compeltely acceptable way to live on minimum wage. I need to do some research (which probably wont' happen) on the different tax brackets before addressing a lot of what RM has to say, though.

In a state that allows it, you could be domestic partners and cut down on a bunch of your expenses and taxes ;)

Bad comedy movies have been made about less (or even about this)

SI

[OldGiants]

I'm not quite sure how not knowing how to use a computer makes someone illiterate. Are they unable to read the words on the screen?

On the screen, on the paper we sent them with their login info. They didn't bother to keep the manual, either. They can't locate their names on an alphabetical list, so they can't 'make their mark' on the sign up sheets.

Basically they sat quietly for the presentation, obviously not paying any attention to our talk at all. I'd been tipped off ahead of time not to expect much and not to try to engage anyone not paying attention or following along as it would embarrass them.

[lordscarlet]

On the screen, on the paper we sent them with their login info. They didn't bother to keep the manual, either. They can't locate their names on an alphabetical list, so they can't 'make their mark' on the sign up sheets.

Basically they sat quietly for the presentation, obviously not paying any attention to our talk at all. I'd been tipped off ahead of time not to expect much and not to try to engage anyone not paying attention or following along as it would embarrass them.

Got it. That wasn't clear to me based on the story -- I wasn't sure where the connection was.

[Raiders Army]

AC is definitely not a necessity. You guys have a warped view of what need really is. If hot temperatures kill you, they kill you like anything else. Try living in Iraq without AC and I guarantee you it's hotter than anything in the states.

[CU Tiger]

AC is definitely not a necessity. You guys have a warped view of what need really is. If hot temperatures kill you, they kill you like anything else. Try living in Iraq without AC and I guarantee you it's hotter than anything in the states.


and how many 75+ year olds live in Iraq without AC?


Oh right, we are only talking about young extremely fit people, not everyone fits that category

[molson]

and how many 75+ year olds live in Iraq without AC?

Oh right, we are only talking about young extremely fit people, not everyone fits that category

How did humanity even survive before air conditioning?

I don't even remember anyone having it when I was growing up, and that wasn't all that long ago.

[larrymcg421]

AC may not be a "necessity", but it is ridiculously judgmental to criticize someone for having it, no matter how little they make. It is certainly not a frivolous expense, especially in the south.

[SteveMax58]

AC may not be a "necessity", but it is ridiculously judgmental to criticize someone for having it, no matter how little they make. It is certainly not a frivolous expense, especially in the south.

Yeah...and if they don't have AC and they live in the south...better not do something crazy like venture into the world of wearing dress clothes for a profession. You'll be soaked with sweat before you even leave your house (even if you did just take a cold shower).

[SteveMax58]

How did humanity even survive before air conditioning?

I don't even remember anyone having it when I was growing up, and that wasn't all that long ago.

It might be a regional thing though...I grew up in Florida and there is no way you are going to survive without AC. I have never known anybody who did NOT have AC when growing up, and I grew up lower middle class (or "working poor" is probably what its called today).

I'm living in the north now, and while I really really really prefer to have ac...I could likely do without if it wasn't affordable. Heat on the other hand...not so much.

[larrymcg421]

How did humanity even survive before air conditioning?

I don't even remember anyone having it when I was growing up, and that wasn't all that long ago.

There are a ton of things that humanity survived with at one point that we wouldn't subject anyone to today.

[Autumn]

Yeah...and if they don't have AC and they live in the south...better not do something crazy like venture into the world of wearing dress clothes for a profession. You'll be soaked with sweat before you even leave your house (even if you did just take a cold shower).

Yes, this is the sort of hidden thing that makes it even harder for poor people to work their way up. It's harder to get a good job when you already look poor.

[molson]

I wonder if there's any other "necessities" I should know about.

I never knew I grew up so poor.

To me it comes down to a sense of entitlement about a certain kind of lifestyle that our society can't currently maintain for everyone. We're eventually going to have to accept a lower standard of living in this country.

[SteveMax58]

To me it comes down to a sense of entitlement about a certain kind of lifestyle that our society can't currently maintain for everyone. We're eventually going to have to accept a lower standard of living in this country.

I don't think it's an "entitlement" issue as much as...our society/culture doesn't allow for "stinky & dirty" professionals any more (and reference stinky & dirty standards to 60-70 years ago...not what we consider it to be today). At least not in the general sense.

You (figuratively you) wouldn't shop at a grocery store where the manager, cashier, etc. walks by and smells profoundly bad...or the waiter/waitress serving your food looks/smells like he just got his shirt out of a salt-filled washing machine. It's just unacceptable these days. So expecting a minimum wage person to not have these things (again...I'll speak for living in the south and namely Florida) and ever progress beyond that is like a one-legged man in an asskicking contest.

This (fortunately or unfortunately depending on your point of view) is what our society has become. Similar to the "too big to fail" syndrome...we have created (seemingly) unsustainable standards that likely need to be adapted. Unfortunately...who's going to be the first one to voluntarily shut off the AC? Or who will be the first 4-person family to volunteer to leave their >1600 sq ft home for a more sustainable 1000 sq ft condo?

I agree overall lifestyle standards are unsustainable in this country...but I think AC/Heat is likely one of (if not THE) last thing we should expect people to drop or accpet reduced standard of.

[lungs]

I don't have AC and I most certainly can afford it. But shit, I'm plenty comfortable in humid 90 degree heat. I've got fucking fans for god's sake.

[SteveMax58]

Farmers don't count...you'll be here long after the nuclear winter that all of us society-folk cause. :)

[larrymcg421]

I'm still astonished that there's criticism of people who spend on AC as if it is some frivolous expense for a luxurious lifestyle.

I mean, I get it that people didn't have it in the past, and yeah I know many of you walked up the hill in the snow to school (BOTH WAYS!), and at different times in this country things like electricity and plumbing were not considered necessities, but I always thought it was a good thing that standards of living increased in this country. I consider that progress. Going backwards would seem to be an epic failure.

[thesloppy]

I wonder if there's any other "necessities" I should know about.

I never knew I grew up so poor.


Shit like penicillin. You might not need it now, but when you do, you do. Plenty of people 'get by' without penicillin everyday, and humanity 'got by' just fine without, 'cuz those that didn't weren't part of humanity anymore. Nobody 'needs' air conditioning when they're growing up, nor do they need phone assistance, nor food stamps...but that's because you're growing up. When you're 80 and on your death bed, you might actually decide you do 'need' A/C, whereas some dude 200 years ago didn't have that option, but he was probably dead long before 80, because he couldn't get any penicillin.

[JPhillips]

I don't have AC and I most certainly can afford it. But shit, I'm plenty comfortable in humid 90 degree heat. I've got fucking fans for god's sake.

Are you my Dad?

[Autumn]

I don't have AC and I most certainly can afford it. But shit, I'm plenty comfortable in humid 90 degree heat. I've got fucking fans for god's sake.

I'm perfectly fine when it gets 90 here too. Again, we don't need to polarize everything. People who live in Maine don't really *need* AC, yet plenty use it because it makes them comfortable. Yet there are places where it's more akin to our heat, which certainly is a necessity that the government pays for when people can't afford it. I also imagine that there are places where a lot of people live now that were left pretty much barren before AC, just like there are places now that only exist because we pipe water there.

I'm much more bothered by middle class people using up all of our resources in order to maintain their comfort than I am some poor people in Phoenix who want to stop sweating. I mean is our problem really poor people getting some sort of AC credit? If the American lifestyle is a problem it's because of the mass of rich and middle class people who are enjoying the most luxurious standard of living in human history, not because some poor people want a piece of it. Let's start by having the people who can afford it make some sacrifices for the good of all.

[CamEdwards]

I'm still astonished that there's criticism of people who spend on AC as if it is some frivolous expense for a luxurious lifestyle.

I mean, I get it that people didn't have it in the past, and yeah I know many of you walked up the hill in the snow to school (BOTH WAYS!), and at different times in this country things like electricity and plumbing were not considered necessities, but I always thought it was a good thing that standards of living increased in this country. I consider that progress. Going backwards would seem to be an epic failure.

Standards of living can increase without the increased standards becoming necessities. I find it odd that you consider something that most of the world's inhabitants don't have to be a necessity for humans to survive.

[RainMaker]

I'm still astonished that there's criticism of people who spend on AC as if it is some frivolous expense for a luxurious lifestyle.

I mean, I get it that people didn't have it in the past, and yeah I know many of you walked up the hill in the snow to school (BOTH WAYS!), and at different times in this country things like electricity and plumbing were not considered necessities, but I always thought it was a good thing that standards of living increased in this country. I consider that progress. Going backwards would seem to be an epic failure.

I don't think I'm criticizing. I'm just saying that you don't need it in your lifestyle. If I was living on minimum wage, A/C would be real low on my priority list. The issue is whether it's a necessity or a luxury. I personally don't believe it's a necessity for most people.

[larrymcg421]

AC may not be a "necessity", but it is ridiculously judgmental to criticize someone for having it, no matter how little they make. It is certainly not a frivolous expense, especially in the south.

Repeated and bolded.

[CamEdwards]

Shit like penicillin. You might not need it now, but when you do, you do. Plenty of people 'get by' without penicillin everyday, and humanity 'got by' just fine without, 'cuz those that didn't weren't part of humanity anymore. Nobody 'needs' air conditioning when they're growing up, nor do they need phone assistance, nor food stamps...but that's because you're growing up. When you're 80 and on your death bed, you might actually decide you do 'need' A/C, whereas some dude 200 years ago didn't have that option, but he was probably dead long before 80, because he couldn't get any penicillin.

When I'm 80 and on my death bed, I have a feeling that A/C (or the lack thereof) won't really be one of my chief concerns.

[CU Tiger]

Standards of living can increase without the increased standards becoming necessities. I find it odd that you consider something that most of the world's inhabitants don't have to be a necessity for humans to survive.
Necessary to survive, no<br/>
Necessary to be a functional part of society, yes.

I don't think I'm criticizing. I'm just saying that you don't need it in your lifestyle. If I was living on minimum wage, A/C would be real low on my priority list. The issue is whether it's a necessity or a luxury. I personally don't believe it's a necessity for most people.
Around here if you didnt have A/C you woudnt have a minimum wage job long, I dont know how to make it more clear than that.

last year our A/C went out while I was out of town, called a friend (he owns an HVAC company)who couldnt get by until the evening to look at or fix it. With all the windows open and fans a blowing it was 85+ in our house when he arrived. Try being a woman and trying to put on makeup (without sweating it off) or a guy and not sweating through you clothes in those temps. I dont know maybe I sweat more than you, and I dont mind it when I am outside working, and I can get away with it in my line of work, but if I had to walk into McDonalds or Wal Mart and had sweat stains from my underarms to my beltline on the sides (yes even using anti perspirent) at 10AM I would probably be fired or at the least never move up because of my hygiene.<br/>


just curious for the no A/C where do you live and what is an average summer temp/humidity?

[lungs]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing anybody for having AC even if they can't afford it. I'm not one to comment on people's spending habits. I'm just a freak of nature that considers 70 degrees to be a bit chilly.

I let my roommate put AC in his room and don't charge him for the extra electric. I have an old AC unit sitting out in the barn if I wanted to put it in, I just simply don't see the need. For others its a quality of life issue, which I can understand. If you're going to be miserable because you haven't got much money, I'd understand being miserable but at least not sweating your ass off 100% of the time.

Now, when I see poor people smoking Camel Lights at over $8.00/pack when a pack of Basic Lights costs $5.75........

[DaddyTorgo]

Now, when I see poor people smoking.

how about this (fixed)? whatever they're smoking it's costing too much.

[thesloppy]

When I'm 80 and on my death bed, I have a feeling that A/C (or the lack thereof) won't really be one of my chief concerns.

True, but by that time I bet your government appointed death assistant will have it installed for you anyway.

[molson]

Shit like penicillin. You might not need it now, but when you do, you do. Plenty of people 'get by' without penicillin everyday, and humanity 'got by' just fine without, 'cuz those that didn't weren't part of humanity anymore. Nobody 'needs' air conditioning when they're growing up, nor do they need phone assistance, nor food stamps...but that's because you're growing up. When you're 80 and on your death bed, you might actually decide you do 'need' A/C, whereas some dude 200 years ago didn't have that option, but he was probably dead long before 80, because he couldn't get any penicillin.

I don't know if I missed it, but I'm still curious what people think would be an appropriate minimum wage, which I guess has to be enough to cover (regardless of a person's debt situation, I suppose):

-AC
-Cable and Internet
-Nice clothes for job interviews
-Housing without any roomates

I'm not criticizing anyone for doing whatever the hell they want with their own money. I just find ridiculous that people think that the minimum acceptable wage in this country needs to cover all of those things, or that our government could even support that without bringing down what's left of the middle class to the level of the rest of the poor.

[Autumn]

I don't know if I missed it, but I'm still curious what people think would be an appropriate minimum wage, which I guess has to be enough to cover (regardless of a person's debt situation, I suppose):

-AC
-Cable and Internet
-Nice clothes for job interviews
-Housing without any roomates

I'm not criticizing anyone for doing whatever the hell they want with their own money. I just find ridiculous that people think that the minimum acceptable wage in this country needs to cover all of those things, or that our government could even support that without bringing down what's left of the middle class to the level of the rest of the poor.

I gave the Vermont statistics on what they've found to be a livable wage, based on being able to afford health care and housing and such.

But frankly,t he original thrust of this thread was suggesting that it was possible to survive at minimum wage and people shouldn't complain about how impossible it is. I think the discussion now is pointing out that living at minimum wage creates real difficulties. it doesn't mean no one should have difficulties or that minimum wage should fix these problems, but it means let's not pretend that the only problem with people on minimum wage is that they whine.

[thesloppy]

I don't know if I missed it, but I'm still curious what people think would be an appropriate minimum wage, which I guess has to be enough to cover (regardless of a person's debt situation, I suppose):

-AC
-Cable and Internet
-Nice clothes for job interviews
-Housing without any roomates

I'm not criticizing anyone for doing whatever the hell they want with their own money. I just find ridiculous that people think that the minimum acceptable wage in this country needs to cover all of those things, or that our government could even support that without bringing down what's left of the middle class to the level of the rest of the poor.

Well, now we're muddling assistance and minimum wage again. I do think that anyone in this country who works 40 hours a week should be able to afford a reasonable version of all of that stuff, and I understand that may be completely unrealistic, but I don't think it's ridiculous. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that I think people who don't have that stuff should necessarily have the bill footed by the government.

Lastly, if the poor had most of the luxuries and benefits of the middle class, then wouldn't bringing the middle class down to that level of the poor, just be bringing the middle class down to the level of the middle class? It's called communism, catch the red fever, baby!

[wade moore]

But frankly,t he original thrust of this thread was suggesting that it was possible to survive at minimum wage and people shouldn't complain about how impossible it is. I think the discussion now is pointing out that living at minimum wage creates real difficulties. it doesn't mean no one should have difficulties or that minimum wage should fix these problems, but it means let's not pretend that the only problem with people on minimum wage is that they whine.

Bingo. As people have repeatedly shown RainMaker to be an idiot with his original statement, he and others have tried to shift the argument.


I also notice that, I believe, almost everyone criticizing A/C being very important(outside of Cam) are from the north.

[molson]

But frankly,t he original thrust of this thread was suggesting that it was possible to survive at minimum wage and people shouldn't complain about how impossible it is. I think the discussion now is pointing out that living at minimum wage creates real difficulties. it doesn't mean no one should have difficulties or that minimum wage should fix these problems, but it means let's not pretend that the only problem with people on minimum wage is that they whine.

I don't think anyone would disagree that there's stuff you can't get if you make minimum wage. That's not much of a discussion.

[molson]

I also notice that, I believe, almost everyone criticizing A/C being very important(outside of Cam) are from the north.

Nobody says it's not important, and I don't think anyone's criticizing anyone for having it. It's just not a necessity. It's not a right. You don't need it to live. It's a luxury.

[molson]

I gave the Vermont statistics on what they've found to be a livable wage, based on being able to afford health care and housing and such.



But is that the mimimum wage that you think the federal government should impose? $15-$16?

The implication seems to be that if the minimum wage isn't "liveable", it should be higher. Is that what people are saying?

[SteveMax58]

The implication seems to be that if the minimum wage isn't "liveable", it should be higher. Is that what people are saying?

I'll just add this as I think my points about AC may be slightly out of context (from my own doing).

While I don't think people can function effectively in the society we've built without certain items that were once considered by ALL to be luxury items...I will say that I dont believe it is taxpayer responsibility to fund it (in most cases...disabled 90 yr old grandma caveat notwithstanding).

So to me, minimum wage may need to be adjusted for inflation periodically as it is today(though likely needs to be more localized due to dramatic differences between differring metro areas), but in general it does what it is intended to do. I don't think minimum wage should be for somebody to work for 20 years and still make. It is intended as a minimum pay for (presumably) minimum skill set. If your skill set does not make you more marketable after a couple of years of min wage work, then you likely need to continue roommating and sharing bills and the like until you do.

[RainMaker]

Bingo. As people have repeatedly shown RainMaker to be an idiot with his original statement, he and others have tried to shift the argument.


I also notice that, I believe, almost everyone criticizing A/C being very important(outside of Cam) are from the north.
No one is criticizing people for having A/C. People are saying it's not a necessity. None of us would die this Summer if we didn't have A/C. We wouldn't be comfortable and we may have a few sleepless nights, but by in large we'd manage to survive.

This notion that we can't survive as human beings without cold air being pumped through our homes all Summer is ludicrous. People everywhere manage to get by just fine without it. For those who seem to believe it's an absolute necessity, have you ever lived in a place that didn't have A/C? It can suck but it's not the end of the fucking world. Grab a few cheap fans at Wal-Mart and aim them on you.

The thread was "Could you Live on Minimum Wage?". Not "Would your life suck?" or "Would it be comfortable?". That if you were given a minimum wage now and told your life depended on living off of it, could you find a way to do it? Do you honestly feel there is no way in hell you could possibly do it?

[lungs]

how about this (fixed)? whatever they're smoking it's costing too much.

If we were talking about something that wasn't physically addictive I'd tend to agree. Smoking tends to be one of the few enjoyments many poor people have.

[larrymcg421]

No one is criticizing people for having A/C. People are saying it's not a necessity. None of us would die this Summer if we didn't have A/C. We wouldn't be comfortable and we may have a few sleepless nights, but by in large we'd manage to survive.

How many other things would that be true for? You wouldn't die if you didn't wash your clothes. You wouldn't die without electricity.

This notion that we can't survive as human beings without cold air being pumped through our homes all Summer is ludicrous. People everywhere manage to get by just fine without it. For those who seem to believe it's an absolute necessity, have you ever lived in a place that didn't have A/C? It can suck but it's not the end of the fucking world. Grab a few cheap fans at Wal-Mart and aim them on you.

I have lived without AC and I can tell you that the extra electricity you'll be paying for those fans will outweight any cost effectiveness of living without AC.

The thread was "Could you Live on Minimum Wage?". Not "Would your life suck?" or "Would it be comfortable?". That if you were given a minimum wage now and told your life depended on living off of it, could you find a way to do it? Do you honestly feel there is no way in hell you could possibly do it?

Well, then this is a stupid thread. I mean, I could live in my car. I even know where I could park and no one would notice. I'd save a ton of money. But I wouldn't consider that living.

There are a ton of things, like AC, that being without wouldn't necessarily kill you. That doesn't make them frivolous expenses.

[RainMaker]

Well, now we're muddling assistance and minimum wage again. I do think that anyone in this country who works 40 hours a week should be able to afford a reasonable version of all of that stuff, and I understand that may be completely unrealistic, but I don't think it's ridiculous. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that I think people who don't have that stuff should necessarily have the bill footed by the government.

Lastly, if the poor had most of the luxuries and benefits of the middle class, then wouldn't bringing the middle class down to that level of the poor, just be bringing the middle class down to the level of the middle class? It's called communism, catch the red fever, baby!

My problem with that is I think it fucks over the middle class guy who worked harder to get where he's at. Lets say that minimum wage is increased to a level so that people can get everything you mentioned. Doesn't that just mean lower wages for the workers higher up? Is it fair to lower the wages of the guy who got his Masters in Accounting and worked long hours learning his craft so that the guy who dropped out of high school and mops floors can live on his own with central air, 400 channels, and a 10 meg internet connection?

I do think there is something to be said about motivating people to better themselves so that they can get those things.

[larrymcg421]

My problem with that is I think it fucks over the middle class guy who worked harder to get where he's at. Lets say that minimum wage is increased to a level so that people can get everything you mentioned. Doesn't that just mean lower wages for the workers higher up? Is it fair to lower the wages of the guy who got his Masters in Accounting and worked long hours learning his craft so that the guy who dropped out of high school and mops floors can live on his own with central air, 400 channels, and a 10 meg internet connection?

I do think there is something to be said about motivating people to better themselves so that they can get those things.

Huh? This doesn't make any sense at all. A minimum wage increase doesn't lower wages of the middle class. It eventually increases wages across the board, because now you have to pay more to get good workers.

[RainMaker]

How many other things would that be true for? You wouldn't die if you didn't wash your clothes. You wouldn't die without electricity.
I think it would be really tough to live in today's society without electricity and running water. I consider those necessities to make it in today's society. I don't consider my air conditioner essential to my daily life. It is a luxury I covet, but I could certainly maintain my job and life functions without it.

I have lived without AC and I can tell you that the extra electricity you'll be paying for those fans will outweight any cost effectiveness of living without AC.
You are way off. A central air unit uses 3500 watts an hour. A window A/C unit uses just under 1000 an hour. A fan is under 100 at its highest speed. So unless you plan on having over 10 high powered fans running in the room at the same time, you're saving a lot of money by not having an A/C.

Well, then this is a stupid thread. I mean, I could live in my car. I even know where I could park and no one would notice. I'd save a ton of money. But I wouldn't consider that living.

There are a ton of things, like AC, that being without wouldn't necessarily kill you. That doesn't make them frivolous expenses.
No one is saying they are frivolous. Just saying if money is real tight, it's something you can live without. Comparing an air conditioner to electricity, running water, and a roof over your head seems a bit far fetched.

[molson]

Huh? This doesn't make any sense at all. A minimum wage increase doesn't lower wages of the middle class. It eventually increases wages across the board, because now you have to pay more to get good workers.

It means relatively lower wages for the middle class. If minimum wage is $16 tomorrow, the first thing that happens is the unemployment rate goes to 20% or higher. The service industry - which is a huge part of our economy - would be ravaged. Middle class salaries wouldn't increase, jobs would be so precious that employers could offer the vast majority of the workforce the minimum wage and everyone would jump at it. Ditch Diggers, fast food workers, administrative professionals, insurance adjusters, and public service attorneys, entry level workers (pretty much in any field that makes under $50k today) would all make the same thing. There would be competition for the better minimum wage jobs because they might be more pleasant, but there'd be no reason for employers to pay more than minimum wage with so many unemployed.

Then of course the government has to foot the bill for the massive unemployed, and that means heavy taxes on the new middle class (which used to be the upper-middle class), and the upper middle class (which used to be the rich). Everyone's poorer, and everything's more equal.

Or the least important people to the workforce could just live without AC and internet and have to have roomates....

[RainMaker]

Huh? This doesn't make any sense at all. A minimum wage increase doesn't lower wages of the middle class. It eventually increases wages across the board, because now you have to pay more to get good workers.
When a business is forced to increase their expenses for lower wage workers, the difference has to be made up somewhere else. Just because you raise minimum wage doesn't mean a company magically comes across more money to pay all their employees. It's either going to come from cuts in other places or through higher prices for consumers.

[larrymcg421]

No one is saying they are frivolous. Just saying if money is real tight, it's something you can live without. Comparing an air conditioner to electricity, running water, and a roof over your head seems a bit far fetched.

You're the one who used the "live without" criteria. I'm simply pointing out that many other things would also fit under that.

[larrymcg421]

It means relatively lower wages for the middle class. If minimum wage is $16 tomorrow, the first thing that happens is the unemployment rate goes to 20% or higher. The service industry - which is a huge part of our economy - would be ravaged. Middle class salaries wouldn't increase, jobs would be so precious that employers could offer the vast majority of the workforce the minimum wage and everyone would jump at it. Ditch Diggers, fast food workers, administrative professionals, insurance adjusters, and public service attorneys, entry level workers (pretty much in any field that makes under $50k today) would all make the same thing. There would be competition for the better minimum wage jobs because they might be more pleasant, but there'd be no reason for employers to pay more than minimum wage with so many unemployed.

Then of course the government has to foot the bill for the massive unemployed, and that means heavy taxes on the new middle class (which used to be the upper-middle class), and the upper middle class (which used to be the rich). Everyone's poorer, and everything's more equal.

Or the least important people to the workforce could just live without AC and internet and have to have roomates....

$16 is a bit ridiculous and I'm certainly not suggesting that. But I think it should be more than it is now.

Clinton increased minimum wage from 4.25 to 5.15 from 96-97 and the unemployment rate continued to drop, from 5.4 in 96 to 4.0 in 2000. It didn't get back to the 1996 level until 2002.

Of course, the benefit to employers is that people now have more money to spend on those "frivolous" items.

[RainMaker]

$16 is a bit ridiculous and I'm certainly not suggesting that. But I think it should be more than it is now.

Clinton increased minimum wage from 4.25 to 5.15 from 96-97 and the unemployment rate continued to drop, from 5.4 in 96 to 4.0 in 2000. It didn't get back to the 1996 level until 2002.
Most states have higher rates. I personally believe it should be a state or local issue instead of a federal one. The cost of living between areas in this country differs a lot.

[larrymcg421]

And I should add I'm certainly amused that $16/hour is apparently how much it costs to live by yourself, with AC, cable, and nice clothes. Especially since I make less than that.

[sterlingice]

I think it would be really tough to live in today's society without electricity and running water. I consider those necessities to make it in today's society. I don't consider my air conditioner essential to my daily life. It is a luxury I covet, but I could certainly maintain my job and life functions without it.

...

No one is saying they are frivolous. Just saying if money is real tight, it's something you can live without. Comparing an air conditioner to electricity, running water, and a roof over your head seems a bit far fetched.

I'm curious as to the distinction. What makes electricity/running water necessities but not A/C? What's the thread that makes one a necessity and the other a luxury?

SI

[thesloppy]

It means relatively lower wages for the middle class. If minimum wage is $16 tomorrow, the first thing that happens is the unemployment rate goes to 20% or higher. The service industry - which is a huge part of our economy - would be ravaged. Middle class salaries wouldn't increase, jobs would be so precious that employers could offer the vast majority of the workforce the minimum wage and everyone would jump at it. Ditch Diggers, fast food workers, administrative professionals, insurance adjusters, and public service attorneys, entry level workers (pretty much in any field that makes under $50k today) would all make the same thing. There would be competition for the better minimum wage jobs because they might be more pleasant, but there'd be no reason for employers to pay more than minimum wage with so many unemployed.

Then of course the government has to foot the bill for the massive unemployed, and that means heavy taxes on the new middle class (which used to be the upper-middle class), and the upper middle class (which used to be the rich). Everyone's poorer, and everything's more equal.

Or the least important people to the workforce could just live without AC and internet and have to have roomates....

That is a slope that one might describe as very long, and very slippery. I guess it's a good thing the minimum wage has never been raised, huh?

[larrymcg421]

If I got laid off tomorrow, I would be able to collect $1200 a month in unemployment. Someone who is making minimum wage at 40 hours would pull in $1160.

I certainly think minimum wage should be more than people can make on unemployment.

[molson]

That is a slope that one might describe as very long, and very slippery. I guess it's a good thing the minimum wage has never been raised, huh?

I never said the mnimum wage should never be raised, I've been asking people what they think it should be, the only one that answered cited a Vermont study that said that the minimum liveable wage for a single person without kids should be $15-$16 (which is about the starting salarly for entry level criminal prosecutor/public defender jobs in most states), so that's the number I'm responding to.

Any meaningful increase isn't practical right now. It might be in the future. Have the gradual minmum wage increases over the last few decades increased our overall standard of living? Poor people are still poor, last I checked.

[Passacaglia]

Newman: Okay, you're all set? You got your story?

Kramer: No.

Newman: When the cop stopped me, I told him that I was rushing home because my friend was about to commit suicide.

Kramer: Uhm...

Newman: Now, you're that firend. Now, all we need is a reason why you were going to commit suicide.

[Pause; they're thinking]

Kramer: I never had an air conditioner.

Newman: No! That's no reason to kill yourself!

Kramer: Why? It gets hot at night, you can't sleep. You ever tried to sleep in a really hot room?

Newman: Every night I sleep in a really hot room, I don't want to kill myself.

Kramer: Well, I slept in really hot rooms and I wanted to kill myself.

[Young Drachma]

Anecdotes are hilarious.

[lurker]

and how many 75+ year olds live in Iraq without AC?


Oh right, we are only talking about young extremely fit people, not everyone fits that category

Are you seriously claiming that there aren't 75+ year olds in Iraq without AC? That's ridiculous. They're just not conditioned to need it like people in the U.S. And it's ridiculous to claim that it's a necessity for people living in the south -- I have plenty of relatives in India who lived to their 80s and 90s without air conditioning, and it's insanely hotter there than the south.

[thesloppy]

Any meaningful increase isn't practical right now. It might be in the future. Have the gradual minmum wage increases over the last few decades increased our overall standard of living? Poor people are still poor, last I checked.

My understanding is that this was the basis of this entire discussion. Poor people these days are flush with air-conditioning, cell-phones, and cable TV, don't you know?

[RainMaker]

I'm curious as to the distinction. What makes electricity/running water necessities but not A/C? What's the thread that makes one a necessity and the other a luxury?

SI

I guess everyone has their own opinion of necessity. I don't think A/C falls anywhere near that level but to each their own. I don't see humanitarian missions where we help setup air conditioners in 3rd World Countries.

[AENeuman]

My problem with that is I think it fucks over the middle class guy who worked harder to get where he's at.

The governments approach to poverty is to make it less miserable. That's it. And we are fine with this. For one, it passes the buck. We are no longer responsible for our poor neighbor if we know the government is "helping" with our money to boot. It also gives us the added benefit of judging without guilt.


Is it fair to lower the wages of the guy who got his Masters in Accounting and worked long hours learning his craft so that the guy who dropped out of high school and mops floors can live on his own with central air, 400 channels, and a 10 meg internet connection? I do think there is something to be said about motivating people to better themselves so that they can get those things.

I am amazed how you ignore opportunity. Why do you think the high school drop out wanted to be a floor mopper? Why is it so impossible for the grad student to realize the opportunities given to them did not necessarily apply to the drop out? (i'm not talking race here. not having parents who have the time, income and skills to nurture, teach and role model one's first 5 years is maybe the most important thing).

Do you really think it's the governments job to motivate people? How have they motivated you compared to say your family, friends and mentors? Do you think the grad student could be more effective than the government in motivating the mopper? Or better yet, motivating the mopper's kids?

One of my students once said that the greatest opportunity his upper class, educated family gives him is the opportunity to be lazy knowing there is always a safety net and a plan B.

[sterlingice]

I guess everyone has their own opinion of necessity. I don't think A/C falls anywhere near that level but to each their own. I don't see humanitarian missions where we help setup air conditioners in 3rd World Countries.

Not how I phrased the question at all, tho. What makes electricity and running water necessities? I can see water as it's required to live on a basic biological level but even running water in the US is abundantly available for drinking purposes from water fountains and public showers, at least in some parts of the country.

So, again, my question is basically what makes electricity and individual running water a necessity more than what makes A/C one?

SI

[RainMaker]

Not how I phrased the question at all, tho. What makes electricity and running water necessities? I can see water as it's required to live on a basic biological level but even running water in the US is abundantly available for drinking purposes from water fountains and public showers, at least in some parts of the country.

So, again, my question is basically what makes electricity and individual running water a necessity more than what makes A/C one?

SI

Electricity allows people to light their homes at night, cook food, warm water, and power appliances that allow an individual to function in our society. Water is used for hygiene, health, and keeping your home clean.

Are you really trying to debate whether A/C is more important than electricity and running water?

[RainMaker]

I am amazed how you ignore opportunity. Why do you think the high school drop out wanted to be a floor mopper? Why is it so impossible for the grad student to realize the opportunities given to them did not necessarily apply to the drop out? (i'm not talking race here. not having parents who have the time, income and skills to nurture, teach and role model one's first 5 years is maybe the most important thing).

Do you really think it's the governments job to motivate people? How have they motivated you compared to say your family, friends and mentors? Do you think the grad student could be more effective than the government in motivating the mopper? Or better yet, motivating the mopper's kids?

One of my students once said that the greatest opportunity his upper class, educated family gives him is the opportunity to be lazy knowing there is always a safety net and a plan B.

Maybe a better phrasing would be "de-motivating". By handing out things to people, government de-motivates them. It's not the job of government to motivate people, but their actions do have an impact on how people act.

[thesloppy]

Electricity allows people to light their homes at night, cook food, warm water, and power appliances that allow an individual to function in our society. Water is used for hygiene, health, and keeping your home clean.

Are you really trying to debate whether A/C is more important than electricity and running water?

I find this humorous, but I am easily amused.

[RainMaker]

I find this humorous, but I am easily amused.

Electricity also powers 52 inch plasma TVs, but I don't think they are a necessity that the government has to factor into minimum wage.

[sterlingice]

Electricity allows people to light their homes at night, cook food, warm water, and power appliances that allow an individual to function in our society. Water is used for hygiene, health, and keeping your home clean.

Are you really trying to debate whether A/C is more important than electricity and running water?

Not in the least. What I'm trying to determine is how one is a necessity when the other isn't. Again, by the logic of "you can live without it", you can live without electricity. So why are either a necessity? I'm just trying to figure out what logic draws the line where.

SI

[Galaxy]

Huh? This doesn't make any sense at all. A minimum wage increase doesn't lower wages of the middle class. It eventually increases wages across the board, because now you have to pay more to get good workers.

It will also increase the costs of things that those are trying to get (internet, heat, ect.).

[illinifan999]

My A/C was broken for a month. Within 3 days it was over 95 degrees in the house. I would sit in a kitchen chair underneath a fan and be dripping in sweat in 5 minutes. The heat index was around 108 for a week and it was a relief stepping outside. I took showers with no hot water, and as soon as I turned the water off I was hot. This was in southern Illinois, so I can't imagine what living without A/C would be like in the deep south. Our landlord gave us a month of free rent after she walked into the house for 5 minutes to see why we were calling everyday.

[thesloppy]

Electricity also powers 52 inch plasma TVs, but I don't think they are a necessity that the government has to factor into minimum wage.

Totally. We could spend all day naming appliances less potentially necessary to survival than an air conditioner, and wouldn't that be hillarious! The funny part was your suggestion that there was an electrical-powered appliance that does meet your definition of necessary.

[Autumn]

And I should add I'm certainly amused that $16/hour is apparently how much it costs to live by yourself, with AC, cable, and nice clothes. Especially since I make less than that.

The Vermont Livable Wage Study I don't think has anything to do with AC and cable. It's about how much someone would need in order to afford things like heatlh care, transportation to work, without food and rent being too large a portion of their income, and I think with the possibility of saving some money. It's not meant to represent the least somebody could live on, it's supposed to represent an amount that would be a sustainable way to live.

And yes obviously there are economic worries about suddenly increasing the minimum wage. But the minimum wage hasn't grown in real dollars for what, 30 years now? I think it's sill to argue as if it's too much. People have gotten filthy rich off of the low wages of our service economy. They can easily take the brunt of increasing the minimum wage, not the middle class.

[CU Tiger]

I guess everyone has their own opinion of necessity. I don't think A/C falls anywhere near that level but to each their own. I don't see humanitarian missions where we help setup air conditioners in 3rd World Countries.


Ok...so we are talking about survival?
I can survive with no income. I have a Rambo knife, and have watched enough survivor man I can kill a rabbit with a rock.

Is this what we are debating here?
Surviving?

Cause seriously I can hunt, fish, and cut trees and build shelter...
We are talking about living as part of society.
Its only high 80s here today. I walked outside to get the mail and my entire head is soaking wet...If I didnt work for myself would you keep me as an employee if I ran everyone out of the McDonalds with my BO?

you have repeatedly ignored this point

[thesloppy]

It will also increase the costs of things that those are trying to get (internet, heat, ect.).

But if we're going to be that pedantic, than you also have to note that the only products and services that are going to increase in cost directly related to the minimum wage, are those provided entirely by minimum wage workers. As mentioned before in this thread, that's not the people who provide/install/maintain/supervise/support your heat or internet, it's the people who flip burgers and the say "Hi! welcome to Wal-Mart!".

[RainMaker]

Not in the least. What I'm trying to determine is how one is a necessity when the other isn't. Again, by the logic of "you can live without it", you can live without electricity. So why are either a necessity? I'm just trying to figure out what logic draws the line where.

SI

I think it would be very difficult to succesfully function in society without electricity and running water. Sure you could live without it if you had to, but I think it would be really difficult to keep up with society.

[RainMaker]

Ok...so we are talking about survival?
I can survive with no income. I have a Rambo knife, and have watched enough survivor man I can kill a rabbit with a rock.

Is this what we are debating here?
Surviving?

Cause seriously I can hunt, fish, and cut trees and build shelter...
We are talking about living as part of society.
Its only high 80s here today. I walked outside to get the mail and my entire head is soaking wet...If I didnt work for myself would you keep me as an employee if I ran everyone out of the McDonalds with my BO?

you have repeatedly ignored this point

I'm talking about living as a part of society.

Are you telling me that people who don't have air conditioning are not able to work? That there is this overwhelming pandemic of people calling in to work and telling their bosses they can't make it in because their air conditioner went out? That you can't maintain basic hygiene without central air pumping through your home all day?