Is FOF becoming too old?

[heyteach1024]

I've been a loyal custmoer of FOF from day 1. I have purchased every edition. My question though is that is the game getting too old? We have had nothing from Jim for several years, save the one update that gave us new rosters. More so we have heard nothing from Jim about whats on the burner, if anything. I know he doesn't update his progress much but there has been zip for a LoOOOONg time know. Am I supporting a dead end game now?

Mike

[Ben E Lou]

I'm fairly certain that:

1. There have been more updates between FOF2K4 and FOF2K7 than there were between FOF4 and FOF2K4.
2. There has been less time between FOF2K7 and now than there was between FOF4 and FOF2K4.
3. There has been less time between FOF2K7's most recent update and now than there was between FOF4's last update and FOF2K4's announcement and release.

[Yoda]

I think with Madden 2010 coming out and it's multiplayer league set up, I think now would be a good time for Jim to step in and say something about the future of the FoF franchise.

[BigDawg]

I think with Madden 2010 coming out and it's multiplayer league set up, I think now would be a good time for Jim to step in and say something about the future of the FoF franchise.


I agree, I have loved playing FOF but its starting to get a bit dated. since TPF flopped and the FBPRO stuff is long gone. Max football blows and I found Football Mogual borning this is probibly the only choise for multiplayer carrer football sims. But even some kind of word that this game will be updated or something would keep my interest.

I liked NFL HeadCoach09 but again no multiplayer but we will see what Madden10 offers us.

[aran]

I hope Jim has some good stuff brewing. He has the best football sim engine available. I would hate to see it languish.

[sidthelid]

A update from from Jim on when or if a new version is on the way is over due. Even better would an idea of new features etc. There are a number of new games coming in out in the next few months that will look better and feel better, if one of those gets the gameplay right then i fear for Front Office Football. Why are we always kept in the dark on new versions etc, surely our loyalty to the game deserves some news!

[MajikMan77]

Mind sharing what these other games are ?

Would be nice to hear from the man himself what (if anything) he's doing with the game.

[aran]

A update from from Jim on when or if a new version is on the way is over due. Even better would an idea of new features etc. There are a number of new games coming in out in the next few months that will look better and feel better, if one of those gets the gameplay right then i fear for Front Office Football. Why are we always kept in the dark on new versions etc, surely our loyalty to the game deserves some news!

Jim keeps quiet so that anything he does is a pleasant surprise. I think it's a good idea, though I'd like a little more of a heads up, even if it's just a teaser.

[TheMeat]

I would definitely support any new product from Jim and it would be a great time for such a thing but even without a new version I will likely continue to play the current game until something better comes along. I think the engine and general game mechanics are pretty solid but the UI needs a complete overhaul. Since I began playing OOTP I am constantly reminded of how clunky FoF is.

[stevew]

Noobs

We won't hear about the next FOF until it is released.

Jim operates more like Nintendo than EA. Make a high quality game and support and sell it for many years.

If he sells 30 copies of FOF every week he is making a very good living.

I'd assume a new game comes out this year. But if not it really isn't a big deal to me.

[tarcone]

Mind sharing what these other games are ?

Would be nice to hear from the man himself what (if anything) he's doing with the game.

Wolverine Studios is working on a football game. they lost the guy that was doing the most work, but its still in progress, just behind DDS:PB2 right now.
I would imagine that football game will be out next year (2010).

[CU Tiger]

If he sells 30 copies of FOF every week he is making a very good living.

I'd assume a new game comes out this year. But if not it really isn't a big deal to me.
$600/wwek is a good living.....wow I need to move to Michigan

[Cringer]

It's another effect of multi-player FOF on the overall perception of FOF. The scrutiny put on FOF and it's game engine because of every box score and game log being looked at by people quickly brought to light the problems, or "tells," or missing features. Years later if you were only doing solo play and kicking but, the flaws aren't as big of a problem. Years later and you have been attached to MP Player X who doesn't do what you want him to do because feature X doesn't work the way you think it should, then it starts to feel old faster. Just an example.

[stevew]

I thought it was 40 bucks.

I could be wrong but I bet he has other sources of income.

[Cringer]

Crack sales is a good source of income.

[Epi_862]

I've said it before, i'll say it again:

This method of not giving out any info might be what the developer prefers, and im fine with it, no big deal. Lets just not act like it's a sound decision business-wise, 'cos its not.

[RedKingGold]

It's another effect of multi-player FOF on the overall perception of FOF. The scrutiny put on FOF and it's game engine because of every box score and game log being looked at by people quickly brought to light the problems, or "tells," or missing features. Years later if you were only doing solo play and kicking but, the flaws aren't as big of a problem. Years later and you have been attached to MP Player X who doesn't do what you want him to do because feature X doesn't work the way you think it should, then it starts to feel old faster. Just an example.

This.

[Stokes36]

I think with Madden 2010 coming out and it's multiplayer league set up, I think now would be a good time for Jim to step in and say something about the future of the FoF franchise.

I too agree :)

[cthomer5000]

I also would love to know what's going on... but we all know how Jim works.

But seriously - are people thinking Madden multiplayer will come close to the level of detail and realism FOF gives us? As much as we bitch about every tiny crack we've found in the game over the course of years of non-stop play... when you step back and look at FOF.... it's a beautiful thing.

[Celeval]

Ha! And it's not like it's nearly as easy to play in a Madden online league as compared to FOF MP. Particularly since, you know, I don't have a lot of time at once... nor do I own a 360 or PS3.

[azjoe_02]

I also would love to know what's going on... but we all know how Jim works.

But seriously - are people thinking Madden multiplayer will come close to the level of detail and realism FOF gives us? As much as we bitch about every tiny crack we've found in the game over the course of years of non-stop play... when you step back and look at FOF.... it's a beautiful thing.

QFT

[Ben E Lou]

I also would love to know what's going on... but we all know how Jim works. Yup. It's not like this is a new policy or anything. He released a free roster update (that also had some bug fixes) less than a year ago. I'd say that until we get to the point where we don't have the rosters from the most recently completed season in an official release, and have heard no word of anything forthcoming, it's the best bet to assume that there's still a Solecismic Software.


This method of not giving out any info might be what the developer prefers, and im fine with it, no big deal. Lets just not act like it's a sound decision business-wise, 'cos its not.I'm not sure that the answer to that one is as cut and dried as you are implying here. Quite a few text sim companies and developers have come and gone since Jim got started over 11 years ago, he is one of the few left standing. Now, that's not to say that if he did things differently with regard to announcing things earlier he might not be standing in a better place. It's difficult to say for sure. Maybe he's right that too much pre-release hype may sell more games on day 1 but sets expectations in a way that hurts the company/product long-term. And maybe he's not. But Jim has going for him the fact that several other text sim ventures that have done more marketing have ended up with products that haven't stood the test of time as well as FOF. Granted, the reasons for the longevity may be entirely unrelated to his marketing strategy, but I can't summarily dismiss anything as an unsound business decision when the company has lasted like it has.

[bmerryman]

Absolutely no question Solecismic could improve their marketing strategy and techniques (all companies can!) but it is what it is. Gindin's just sticking with what's worked for him in the past. It's his company and that's the beauty in being the owner. Maybe he hates marketing and it would make the whole venture "not fun" for him. Why own a business that's not fun?

[Yoda]

Given that I am relatively new to the whole text sports simulation world (my previous esperience was like 15 years ago with Lance Hafner's NBA Basketball which was VERY good and a couple of baseball sims - Earl Weaver Baseball and I can't remember name of the other) I think that Jim's staying power is amazing. And I agree that it's hard to argue his point.

But-- the only negatives I can see to just announcing that a new game is in the works is that people would probably stop buying the current versions between time of the announcement to the release (unless an upgrade option is provided) and that constant, probably daily, bombardment of questions that would likely assult asking about new features/fixes.

Yup. It's not like this is a new policy or anything. He released a free roster update (that also had some bug fixes) less than a year ago. I'd say that until we get to the point where we don't have the rosters from the most recently completed season in an official release, and have heard no word of anything forthcoming, it's the best bet to assume that there's still a Solecismic Software.


I'm not sure that the answer to that one is as cut and dried as you are implying here. Quite a few text sim companies and developers have come and gone since Jim got started over 11 years ago, he is one of the few left standing. Now, that's not to say that if he did things differently with regard to announcing things earlier he might not be standing in a better place. It's difficult to say for sure. Maybe he's right that too much pre-release hype may sell more games on day 1 but sets expectations in a way that hurts the company/product long-term. And maybe he's not. But Jim has going for him the fact that several other text sim ventures that have done more marketing have ended up with products that haven't stood the test of time as well as FOF. Granted, the reasons for the longevity may be entirely unrelated to his marketing strategy, but I can't summarily dismiss anything as an unsound business decision when the company has lasted like it has.

[Flasch186]

I've said it before, i'll say it again:

This method of not giving out any info might be what the developer prefers, and im fine with it, no big deal. Lets just not act like it's a sound decision business-wise, 'cos its not.

+1

[heyteach1024]

My point is simply that we as customers should know whether or not Jim will continue to support the game with roster updates or not. He could come out tomorrow with a new FOF, some other new game... or say he's not going to do anything with FOF anymore. But it gets a bit frustrating to check his site every week with NOTHING at all!

This is not marketing but simply being courteous to the customers that buy your product. I'm not looking for daily or weekly update, but SOMETHING, SOMETIME would be nice.

I'll certainly buy another FOF but like the up the river game he put out...I'll pass on other stuff. After a certain amount of time even the most loyal customer will simply just stop checking to see if there is anything from Jim.

[stevew]

jim gindin

[Dutch]

My point is simply that we as customers should know whether or not Jim will continue to support the game with roster updates or not. He could come out tomorrow with a new FOF, some other new game... or say he's not going to do anything with FOF anymore. But it gets a bit frustrating to check his site every week with NOTHING at all!

This is not marketing but simply being courteous to the customers that buy your product. I'm not looking for daily or weekly update, but SOMETHING, SOMETIME would be nice.

I'll certainly buy another FOF but like the up the river game he put out...I'll pass on other stuff. After a certain amount of time even the most loyal customer will simply just stop checking to see if there is anything from Jim.

I won't argue with anything said here.

Look, back in the beginning, when Jim would advertise what he was doing, he received some very hurtful comments from Hell Atlantic and he vowed never to pre-release information again after that. So please don't blame Jim, blame Hell Atlantic!

[DeToxRox]

There's nearly 6000 registered members on FOFC, plus how many others on OS. Once he releases his next game I'm going to hazard a guess that most of the people who may buy it are already on FOFC or OS one way or another.

That said it couldn't hurt to do what Adam Ryland does with his TEW/WMMA games and announce it, and do some developer diaries or whatever to keep people informed, but not give a date until near completion.

For my money Ryland is the premier sim maker now, even if the games he make isn't everyone's cup of tea.

[heyteach1024]

Who is HELL ATLANTIC?

[headtrauma]

Who is HELL ATLANTIC?

He's "Anthony" now. This post effectively characterizes his activity at FOFC:

New OOTP online league - Page 4 - Front Office Football Central (http://operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?p=2057147#post2057147)

[NiteMaestro]

Personally, I understand and do feel a desire for "some" sort of info from Jim, but I think it's a side-effect of the whole 'information overload' era we're in.

I'm okay with being patient and waiting. Some word would be reassuring, but I'm not going to stress either. The current game is enjoyable and entertaining as is, in multiplayer, or SP mode, as it's open enough (with the player files) to cause all sorts of chaos.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this Jim's "part-time" gig? I wouldn't expect him to always have time to check on us and stuff, especially if he has kids to deal with (which I *think* he does)

[Chubby]

Personally, I understand and do feel a desire for "some" sort of info from Jim, but I think it's a side-effect of the whole 'information overload' era we're in.

I'm okay with being patient and waiting. Some word would be reassuring, but I'm not going to stress either. The current game is enjoyable and entertaining as is, in multiplayer, or SP mode, as it's open enough (with the player files) to cause all sorts of chaos.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this Jim's "part-time" gig? I wouldn't expect him to always have time to check on us and stuff, especially if he has kids to deal with (which I *think* he does)

It's Jim's job, he quit IBM 11 years ago to do this tho I'm sure he spends time with the mrs and kid.

If this were an American Idol thread he'd be all over this shit.

[MizzouRah]

As we get closer to football season, I really hope Jim has been hard at work on a new edition of FOF.

[Khorium]

I'll certainly buy another FOF but like the up the river game he put out...I'll pass on other stuff. After a certain amount of time even the most loyal customer will simply just stop checking to see if there is anything from Jim.

This.

I check this site and Solecismic periodically for updates, and it's become laughable how stale the product line is.

TCY was released in 2001. Come on.

FOF2k7 is nearly 3 years old. That's a long time to go between new releases. Silly card games don't count.

I suspect a larger problem might be that Gindin has not embraced much in the way of new game interface since he first started. While the actual sim engine was and remains outstanding, the presentation looks like Microsoft Excel circa 1998. No matter what he releases in the future (if anything), it's going to look outdated, unless he outsources some of the graphic design.

With that in mind, maybe there's no point in him releasing anything truly "new." If he can patch the existing game, then how much more sophisticated can he really make it? I suppose there are features like expansion and customizeable league sizes and so forth, but I think he's already expressed an unwillingness to embrace that as well.

So, really, what we have might be as good as it's ever going to get.

[cmdrsam]

Sorry gentlemen I mean no disrepect here. I have only recently got the game. Iv played with the demo last year but just never purchased it. I have looked at several other games, yes even mogal, As far as I know and this game is it. I know I havnt played it enough to disect every play to wonder why player "a" was used in a formation or that should not of been. Or some other nut and bolt aspect thats under the hood. I think we as gamers somtime play a game so much, we start to look under the hood to find that one little trick,aspect, feature to use as a loop hole.

I also think there is a perception by the creator to rush a new product. There is no competion to force him to make a new game. I quit playing OOTP after version 6. Reason being the more features they started to add, the more quirky it became. To me that took away from the game. Sometimes simple is best.

Again I have played alot of text games, OOTP, TEW, Lance Haffner, Baseball mogal, football mogal, Purse the Penant baseball, and now this. I still think this is a marvelous engine. But again I will admit I am noob so my veiws could be tainted. Just a few random thoughts I want to voice and again I meant no disrespect to anyone.

[Nogram]

I think alot of people would be happy to see a 2-D game simulation, i.e. East Side Hockey Manager.

Nogram.

[jdavidbakr]

The game engine is amazing from a statistics standpoint - but when you get down to the nitty-gritty it doesn't hold up. I've stopped watching my games (even after all those hours making the game center) because the realism drops down a little bit. But from a results and stats standpoint, and for longevity for building a league history, it is definitely hands down the best. I say this, though, because the current game engine barely stands up to play-by-play film study, but the game engine does not simulate enough information for a 2D model. Creating a 2D model from the data that is actually used to generate the play result would be more of a red herring than being a benefit. Remember, the game was designed for the work between games, not during the games, which is what makes it unique and why most of us here play it.

[Vegas Vic]

I know I havnt played it enough to disect every play to wonder why player "a" was used in a formation or that should not of been. Or some other nut and bolt aspect thats under the hood. I think we as gamers somtime play a game so much, we start to look under the hood to find that one little trick,aspect, feature to use as a loop hole.

That's one of the factors that made me lose interest in the game, especially multiplayer. It essentially comes down to who can best exploit the software algorithm, not who would make the best football General Manager. That's not meant to criticize anyone, and I salute those who excel at it, but I just lost interest in playing the game.

[TheMeat]

I suspect a larger problem might be that Gindin has not embraced much in the way of new game interface since he first started. While the actual sim engine was and remains outstanding, the presentation looks like Microsoft Excel circa 1998. No matter what he releases in the future (if anything), it's going to look outdated, unless he outsources some of the graphic design.



Amen, girlfriend.

I think Khorium hit it right on the nose here, the biggest detractor from this game is the UI. The engine is outstanding, in the sense that it stands out when compared to anything that's available. In my opinion the best way for Jim to solve this is to make the UI user-moddable. Think about it, how much time would people like yourselves put into designing their own UI tweeks? A metric crapload, like the time already invested in this game by the community. Jim really needs to embrace that and realize that especially for a small company, free labor is the bestest kind of labor. Sell the engine, let the people design the rest for free.

[gstelmack]

The UI is an interesting long-standing debate. I'm fine with the UI the way it looks, my issues are with some functionality, like the heavy use of modal dialogs when I'd like to keep a couple of screens open for certain activities, and the fact that some screens can't be printed (like the draft class). Otherwise the UI itself is fine. Pretty graphics do not make a usable UI.

[BYU 14]

As we get closer to football season, I really hope Jim has been hard at work on a new edition of TCY.

Fixed it for you :)

[Dutch]

Pretty graphics do not make a usable UI.

Yes. A good UI and UI graphics are two seperate entities. I will agree that both need some work. The former can be forgiven if the previous can be done better.

[TheMeat]

The UI is an interesting long-standing debate. I'm fine with the UI the way it looks, my issues are with some functionality, like the heavy use of modal dialogs when I'd like to keep a couple of screens open for certain activities, and the fact that some screens can't be printed (like the draft class). Otherwise the UI itself is fine. Pretty graphics do not make a usable UI.

Absolutely, I could care less if the UI is shiny and pretty, but it lacks a LOT of functionality that the community has come up with on their own. One need only look at the sites Ben has made, the work you've done Greg, and the most useful add-on IMO, Change Tracker. You've all done nothing more than take information already provided by the game and displayed it in a much more useful format. This reminds me of the discussion about "pushing" vs. "pulling" information. The current version of FOF requires a user to pull information (and this sometimes feels more like pulling teeth), whereas a game like OOTP has a beautifully functional UI that puts the FOF UI to shame.

My main point being that why not make this all customizable, so that the community can decide what's important and what's not, what information should be "pushed" and what is better left "pulled". I was hanging with an old friend of mine who still plays a lot of MMORPGS, as I used to, and he's now into Warhammer Online. They have made it so that the UI is completely customizable and alterable and the add-ons he had installed were killer compared to what the game looks like originally. Not just that they look better but the way the information is displayed helps him to play the game more efficiently.

The single-window-mode (or 'modal dialogs') for you super-nerds :), is a perfect example. Archaic and frustrating, I usually run two or three instances of the game just so I can have two windows open at once.