Arena Football League to cease operations

[Young Drachma]

Per ESPN:

Reports: Arena Football League will fold soon, declare bankruptcy - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/extra/afl/news/story?id=4375473)

The Arena Football League will soon announce that it is folding, multiple media outlets reported on Monday.

Arizona Rattlers owner Brett Bouchy said the league will also declare bankruptcy, according to the Orlando Sentinel.

"It's just unfortunate we're in this situation," Bouchy said, according to the newspaper. "Everyone knows myself and Arizona fought hard to avoid this day. The league was divided into two groups and factions. You had one group of committed owners who contributed capital and willing to do whatever it took to bring the league back in 2010 I have been in that group the entire time. Then there was another group that just wasn't willing to make the investment. We could never get a consensus."

Tampa Bay Storm owner Jim Borghesi posted a message on his Facebook page saying: "The AFL will be having a press conference to announce that the league will not be returning," according to the Albany Times-Union.

The league suspended play for the 2009 season in December. In March, players and management agreed in principle on a new collective bargaining agreement, and in April a business plan for the league was put together. But longtime commissioner David Baker stepped down in July, and a date to resume football operations was never forthcoming.

The New Orleans VooDoo had already folded in October, and the Los Angeles Avengers also ceased operations in April, leaving the league with 15 teams.

The AFL was formed in 1987. By the late 1990s, games were broadcast on ESPN, which owns a minority stake in the league.

They had a good run of it and I suspect, given the league's patent, it'll perhaps be back in other form at some point. But...it seems the current entity just wasn't able to go on as it is. Sad, but I think that it grew too fast towards the end there and the hype never matched up with what people were actually putting behind it. And when the talent stops being as cheap as it was in the earlier days, that doesn't help either in a thin margin sport that's just a gimmick to begin with.

Oh well.

[SackAttack]

I figured once the LA franchise went under, it was just a matter of time.

[larnott]

Last AFL game I went to was Arena Bowl XI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArenaBowl_XI) in 1997 (with Kurt Warner). The sport's model was always entertaining. It will make a comeback in better economic times, you can be sure of that.

[Dr. Sak]

Philadelphia Soul are champions again!

[Logan]

Someone check on Pumpy!

[gstelmack]

How many years will I have to wait before my autographed game-worn Corey Johnson Cobras jersey is worth some money?

[albionmoonlight]

As obsessed as people in this country are with HS, NCAA, and NFL football, it suprises me that no other football league has managed to have any real success. I mean, was the AFL the last league to actually be called a success?

[RomaGoth]

I went to a Rattlers game a few years ago. The experience was ok, but nothing spectacular. I also saw a GR Rampage game quite a few years ago before they folded, and I found the games to be very much a gimmick. Didn't feel all that competitive, more like an act. In reality, the best part of the games was the cheerleaders (very nice), the product itself was mediocre at best.

They will be back in due time with a different name, but the game itself won't change, and that is the real travesty here.

[QuikSand]

I've got three bucks right here that says the USFL was a winner.

[albionmoonlight]

I've got three bucks right here that says the USFL was a winner.

I stand corrected, sir.

[flere-imsaho]

Someone check on Pumpy!

:+1:

[sterlingice]

Someone check on Pumpy!

<table class="tborder" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr align="center"><td class="alt1Active" id="u313" align="left">Pumpy Tudors (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=313) </td> <td class="alt2">http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/images/buttons/home.gif (http://www.pumpytudors.com/)</td> <td class="alt1">10-24-2000</td> <td class="alt2">13,134</td> <td class="alt1">Yesterday</td> <td class="alt2">November 11, 76</td> <td class="alt1">32</td></tr></tbody></table>

Uh oh. He hasn't been online since the news broke. Check the obituaries! :(

SI

[kcchief19]

If the league is folding and is bankruptcy, won't that likely lead to a liquidation of assets? Given that the AFL was a single-entity league, it seems like it would be pretty easy for someone to take ownership of the league patent and operations.

Is this the moment the NFL has been waiting for to swoop in and buy the AFL and run it themselves? It's not an ideal minor league system but it's a lot better than other avenues and has produced some successes. If you follow the WNBA model and affiliate teams with NFL operations you can streamline costs significantly.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Last AFL game I went to was Arena Bowl XI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArenaBowl_XI) in 1997 (with Kurt Warner). The sport's model was always entertaining. It will make a comeback in better economic times, you can be sure of that.

The last one I went to was a Detroit Drive game at Joe Louis Arena back in 1989 or so.

Between the Michigan Panthers' USFL championship and the Detroit Drive's four Arena Bowl championships, I feel those two teams stole all the good professional football karma from this state. Poor Lions.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I feel bad for my sister-in-law's brother-in-law, Steve. He was the trainer for the Grand Rapids Rampage.

[albionmoonlight]

If the league is folding and is bankruptcy, won't that likely lead to a liquidation of assets? Given that the AFL was a single-entity league, it seems like it would be pretty easy for someone to take ownership of the league patent and operations.

Is this the moment the NFL has been waiting for to swoop in and buy the AFL and run it themselves? It's not an ideal minor league system but it's a lot better than other avenues and has produced some successes. If you follow the WNBA model and affiliate teams with NFL operations you can streamline costs significantly.

Why would the NFL want to pay to run a minor league when the NCAA gives them one for free?

[molson]

Presumably this means the end of the AFL2 as well? They're still playing at the moment, they're right in the middle of the playoffs.

If arena football gets off the ground again, it would make sense to focus on smaller cities, and AFL2 obviously has a lot of franchises in place. I don't know exactly what they draw in Boise, but I see a lot of Burn jerseys around town on gamenight.

[Young Drachma]

I wonder if AF2 is a different entity within the auspices of the AFL. Because they could just fold the Arena League, bring that league back as the top division and keep going, if it's working for them.

Because with the patent and the aforementioned desire people have for indoor football (and their niche that's not like the others..) they've got to make it work somehow.

It'll be interesting to see what happens, but I think they killed themselves getting into bed with NFL owners and trying to make themselves a major league sport, without the dollars to make that work for them.

[Pumpy Tudors]

OK, here goes. I have a lot of thoughts on this, but I'll try to keep this post short.

I can't fault somebody for not liking Arena Football, as I understand that it's not for everybody. What I don't understand is why people ever try to compare it to the NFL or NCAA football or whatever. It's a completely different game, and the AFL always acknowledged that. Yes, it was made up of players who played "regular" football, but it wasn't regular football in a 50-yard box. It was something different. Now, if a viewer had gone into it with that perspective, it probably wouldn't have seemed bad. If a viewer expected to see anything resembling the NFL, of course it would be a disappointment.

As far as the league apparently folding, it all comes down to the dollars. Salaries were too high, and the league tried to market itself as a national product. It's a success to have lasted for over 20 years, but there were some major blunders. They forgot that you can't sell the AFL in a non-AFL city. They tried to market players as superstars, but you have to sell the teams and the game first. They used to do that, which is why New Orleans, Dallas, Orlando, and Tampa Bay were huge successes. Then ESPN started showing games a couple of years ago, and everything became about TONY GRAZIANI, CLINT DOLEZEL, SHANE STAFFORD!!!! They are all great arena ball quarterbacks, but you don't draw anybody by giving us those names. I'd rather hear "high-powered Philadelphia passing game vs. hard-hitting Orlando defense" as a selling point.

Not to sound like a homer, but the league pretty much died when the VooDoo folded. They were one of the most popular teams in the league. They could have survived as long as the league was still around, but Tom Benson (of all people!) knew that the league was in a downward spiral. He had nothing to gain by fielding a team for another year or two just to watch the league fall apart. So he got out. That was the sign, though. There's no point in putting a team - no matter how popular - into a league that was dying quickly.

AF2 will probably stick around because the salaries are much, much lower. As long as they don't make the same mistakes with AF2 that they did with the AFL, there's no reason that AF2 will go away anytime soon. So far, they're handling that league in the right way.

There's still a tiny bit of hope that the AFL will come back in 2011, but maybe I'm just dreaming. Oh well. I'm going to miss the 50-yard indoor war.

[MikeVic]

OK, here goes. I have a lot of thoughts on this, but I'll try to keep this post short.

I can't fault somebody for not liking Arena Football, as I understand that it's not for everybody. What I don't understand is why people ever try to compare it to the NFL or NCAA football or whatever. It's a completely different game, and the AFL always acknowledged that. Yes, it was made up of players who played "regular" football, but it wasn't regular football in a 50-yard box. It was something different. Now, if a viewer had gone into it with that perspective, it probably wouldn't have seemed bad. If a viewer expected to see anything resembling the NFL, of course it would be a disappointment.

As far as the league apparently folding, it all comes down to the dollars. Salaries were too high, and the league tried to market itself as a national product. It's a success to have lasted for over 20 years, but there were some major blunders. They forgot that you can't sell the AFL in a non-AFL city. They tried to market players as superstars, but you have to sell the teams and the game first. They used to do that, which is why New Orleans, Dallas, Orlando, and Tampa Bay were huge successes. Then ESPN started showing games a couple of years ago, and everything became about TONY GRAZIANI, CLINT DOLEZEL, SHANE STAFFORD!!!! They are all great arena ball quarterbacks, but you don't draw anybody by giving us those names. I'd rather hear "high-powered Philadelphia passing game vs. hard-hitting Orlando defense" as a selling point.

Not to sound like a homer, but the league pretty much died when the VooDoo folded. They were one of the most popular teams in the league. They could have survived as long as the league was still around, but Tom Benson (of all people!) knew that the league was in a downward spiral. He had nothing to gain by fielding a team for another year or two just to watch the league fall apart. So he got out. That was the sign, though. There's no point in putting a team - no matter how popular - into a league that was dying quickly.

AF2 will probably stick around because the salaries are much, much lower. As long as they don't make the same mistakes with AF2 that they did with the AFL, there's no reason that AF2 will go away anytime soon. So far, they're handling that league in the right way.

There's still a tiny bit of hope that the AFL will come back in 2011, but maybe I'm just dreaming. Oh well. I'm going to miss the 50-yard indoor war.

What about Michael Bishop?

[molson]

Maybe this just raises the status of the Indoor Football League

Indoor Football League - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoor_Football_League)

If that, and the AF2 survive, maybe somebody gets a TV contract.

[Pumpy Tudors]

What about Michael Bishop?
Dude couldn't even stick in Grand Rapids. He's garbage. :)

[RomaGoth]

Then ESPN started showing games a couple of years ago, and everything became about TONY GRAZIANI, CLINT DOLEZEL, SHANE STAFFORD!!!!

Clint Dolezel....heh.

AF2 will probably stick around because the salaries are much, much lower. As long as they don't make the same mistakes with AF2 that they did with the AFL, there's no reason that AF2 will go away anytime soon. So far, they're handling that league in the right way.

So does the AF2 become the AF1 now? How can they call themselves the AF2 when there is NO AF1 anymore? Just wondering...

[MikeVic]

Dude couldn't even stick in Grand Rapids. He's garbage. :)

:mad:

[Pumpy Tudors]

So does the AF2 become the AF1 now? How can they call themselves the AF2 when there is NO AF1 anymore? Just wondering...
I assume they'll keep the AF2 name.

Anyway, the creator of arena football insists that the league is not dead: Foster, Kurz: AFL is not dead (http://www.qctimes.com/sports/football/professional/arena/article_633d9114-8135-11de-8e48-001cc4c03286.html)

Frankly, the reports of the league's death seemed a little premature to me. I mean, hell, the first mention of it over the weekend was from the Facebook page of some exiled Tampa Bay executive. It just snowballed from there. I'm not saying that it isn't true, but the whole media coverage got off to a shaky start right there.

I don't know what to believe right now, but it's pretty certain that there won't be an AFL season in 2010 at least.

[RomaGoth]

I assume they'll keep the AF2 name.

Anyway, the creator of arena football insists that the league is not dead: Foster, Kurz: AFL is not dead (http://www.qctimes.com/sports/football/professional/arena/article_633d9114-8135-11de-8e48-001cc4c03286.html)

Frankly, the reports of the league's death seemed a little premature to me. I mean, hell, the first mention of it over the weekend was from the Facebook page of some exiled Tampa Bay executive. It just snowballed from there. I'm not saying that it isn't true, but the whole media coverage got off to a shaky start right there.

I don't know what to believe right now, but it's pretty certain that there won't be an AFL season in 2010 at least.

"The rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated" - Mark Twain

[Young Drachma]

It's the only pro sports league with a patent. The league won't die. All of those IFL and AIFA cities would happily do whatever they could to get under the arena banner in some form or fashion.

The arena football brand has lots of recognition and that's a huge thing, so the Chapter 7 thing makes sense, but...there will be something that brings it back in some fashion at some point in the not-so-distant future, because people love football and like Pumpy alluded to, the game indoors has developed into a completely different code of gridiron football, with its own band of dedicated fans to the niche who will still want to see cheap diversions during the summer when there's no NFL or NCAA.

[DeToxRox]

Pumpy, what if Colin White agreed to finance the AFL?

[Pumpy Tudors]

Pumpy, what if Colin White agreed to finance the AFL?
I'd introduce three bullets to my face. :(

[RainMaker]

With the problems Pumpy listed, I still don't get how they couldn't make it financially. Usually second tier leagues folded because of lack of attendance and no exposure. But the Arena league seemed to do well in both. They had a nice contract with ESPN that gave them great exposure and draw on average 13,000 fans a game. This isn't a CBA issue where 50 people were showing up to games and none were televised.

I personally was a much bigger fan of AF2. I thought indoor football should be for the smaller cities that can really build a loyal fanbase. The Iowa Barnstormers is the prototype in my mind. Won't make you a ton of money, but should consistently offer an opportunity to be profitible. While you might draw some more fans in Chicago, no one really gives a shit about the team. You aren't going to find people here wearing Rush jerseys and marking the calendars for home games.

If they wanted to become much bigger, I think they should have played in the Fall. Football is over after the Super Bowl in most people's minds. We need time to deflate from the playoffs and college bowls. We're just worn out. I thought they could run a 12 game season during the NFL and play their games on Friday nights. Target football fans who don't like high school football.

Just seems like this league should have succeeded. ESPN at your back and some pretty good attendance numbers.

[BishopMVP]

What about Michael Bishop?Dude couldn't even stick in Grand Rapids. He's garbage. :)The one season they let him play he became the first player to rush for 100 yds in a game and set the all-time single-season rushing record. ;)

He's a much better CFL quarterback anyway, as I'm sure MikeVic knows. Coaches may hate him because he probably scored a Wonderlic of about 10, but all he does is win (in the regular season at least).

[RomaGoth]

You aren't going to find people here wearing Rush jerseys and marking the calendars for home games.

This.
858
859

[Pumpy Tudors]

The one season they let him play he became the first player to rush for 100 yds in a game and set the all-time single-season rushing record. ;)

He's a much better CFL quarterback anyway, as I'm sure MikeVic knows. Coaches may hate him because he probably scored a Wonderlic of about 10, but all he does is win (in the regular season at least).
Yes, I'm well aware of what Michael Bishop did for Grand Rapids, and I was mainly joking about him being garbage. The point was just to make fun of the Rampage because they were so terrible for a long stretch there. On the field, they reminded me a lot of the Oakland Raiders. A few individual players who were very good, but they didn't know how to win a football game. They were starting to turn that around, but I guess it doesn't matter anymore. :(

[RomaGoth]

Yes, I'm well aware of what Michael Bishop did for Grand Rapids, and I was mainly joking about him being garbage. The point was just to make fun of the Rampage because they were so terrible for a long stretch there. On the field, they reminded me a lot of the Oakland Raiders. A few individual players who were very good, but they didn't know how to win a football game. They were starting to turn that around, but I guess it doesn't matter anymore. :(

I went to a Rampage game once. I think they lost by 45 points or something.

[MikeVic]

Yes, I'm well aware of what Michael Bishop did for Grand Rapids, and I was mainly joking about him being garbage. The point was just to make fun of the Rampage because they were so terrible for a long stretch there. On the field, they reminded me a lot of the Oakland Raiders. A few individual players who were very good, but they didn't know how to win a football game. They were starting to turn that around, but I guess it doesn't matter anymore. :(

Aha, so you like Michael Bishop!

[Pumpy Tudors]

I went to a Rampage game once. I think they lost by 45 points or something.
That would have been a good night for the Rampage. They were horrible for a while.

Aha, so you like Michael Bishop!
Let's not get carried away, buddy!

[RomaGoth]

Aha, so you like Michael Bishop!

Let's not get carried away, buddy!

Nah, he likes Colin White much, much more. ;)

[Young Drachma]

With the problems Pumpy listed, I still don't get how they couldn't make it financially. Usually second tier leagues folded because of lack of attendance and no exposure. But the Arena league seemed to do well in both. They had a nice contract with ESPN that gave them great exposure and draw on average 13,000 fans a game. This isn't a CBA issue where 50 people were showing up to games and none were televised.

I personally was a much bigger fan of AF2. I thought indoor football should be for the smaller cities that can really build a loyal fanbase. The Iowa Barnstormers is the prototype in my mind. Won't make you a ton of money, but should consistently offer an opportunity to be profitible. While you might draw some more fans in Chicago, no one really gives a shit about the team. You aren't going to find people here wearing Rush jerseys and marking the calendars for home games.

If they wanted to become much bigger, I think they should have played in the Fall. Football is over after the Super Bowl in most people's minds. We need time to deflate from the playoffs and college bowls. We're just worn out. I thought they could run a 12 game season during the NFL and play their games on Friday nights. Target football fans who don't like high school football.

Just seems like this league should have succeeded. ESPN at your back and some pretty good attendance numbers.

The TV deals AFL had weren't money deals. They were simply "put us on TV for free at good times or whatever and you keep the ad revenue." As a result, that exposure was getting them to spend like a major league sport and like Pumpy said, to treat the game like it was about the individuals (second-tier players or about the owners) rather than about the brands themselves.

ESPN made shit worse. They bought a stake in the league and while the exposure was okay, it was all about Bon Jovi and the Philadelphia Soul or about other such things that had nothing to do with showcase the sport itself.

So it became a spectacle of casual fans, rather than a game anchored by people like Pumpy who love the game for what it is.

But that didn't kill it. Funnelling cash into it like it was a major league sport, without major league revenues coming in, is what did it. Never underestimate how much salaries can hurt a fledgling sports league. I mean, it killed hockey for an entire year. So it's not just relegated to second-tier sports, either.

Their season of post-Super Bowl to summer, is smart niche. Competing with the NFL would've been a bad idea and made the sport even less relevant than it already was/is.

It'll be back though, somehow...at some point.

[RainMaker]

Why not put a salary cap in or just have the owners say no to paying top dollar for players? Could no team find a way to balance their payroll with what they were making?

I didn't go to a Chicago Rush game. I did see the Milwaukee Mustangs back in high school a few times. They played at the Bradley Center and drew big numbers for games. Was always surprised that they folded since the city seemed to really like them. I also used to regularly go to La Crosse Night Train games back in college because I had a friend who played on the team. They were in the National Indoor Football League and I think switched to a league that folded.

Always thought the games were fun and exciting. The Milwaukee team had a PA announcer who would make fun of the other team and was quite funny.

[DanGarion]

So where is John Elway and Jon BonJovi in all this?

[Karlifornia]

I kind of wish I had bought some SaberCats memorabilia so I could show my grandkids someday. I guess there's always Ebay.

[Philliesfan980]

So where is John Elway and Jon BonJovi in all this?

BonJovi is such a POS. Not that I care for his music at all, might be one of the more overrated guys in history, but when they won, he promised the city of Philadelphia a free concert.

Did it ever happen? Of course not. The guy thought better of it and decided never to do it. A real class act.

The city of Philadelphia really supported the team. They rarely sold out, but they probably drew 15-17K a game.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Why not put a salary cap in or just have the owners say no to paying top dollar for players? Could no team find a way to balance their payroll with what they were making?
There was a salary cap. In fact, earlier this year, the players were reportedly willing to allow the salary cap to be cut by 25% or more. By then, however, many of the owners wanted out. It was too late to save the league, really.

On top of that, what are the chances that all of the owners were going to essentially collude and decide to stop paying big bucks for a top quarterback? If San Jose and all the other top teams decided that they wouldn't pay big bucks to Mark Grieb (one of the best quarterbacks in AFL history), then one of the bad teams would snap him up. The league made some mistakes, but owners really did want to win. Unless you were New Orleans, Los Angeles, or Utah, you didn't get butts in the seats unless you won. So you don't say no to the top players if they're available. You're pretty much digging your own grave if you do that.

Also, as Dark Cloud has already mentioned, there wasn't any national television revenue to help the teams out financially. So unless you had a good contract with a local or regional network, you're living off gate receipts and merchandise sales. That wasn't working for most teams. Attendance wasn't growing, the league was marketed too poorly to attract new fans, and the television deal was crap. Throw all of that together and the league is hemorrhaging money no matter what.

It's a shame that the league did things right for so long, but then they made a wrong turn and everything went into the crapper. I'm not sure what led teams to start paying damn near $200,000 a year to some players, but it was impossible to get that genie back into the bottle, obviously.

[Dr. Sak]

Back!

More on the reconstituted AFL | ProFootballTalk.com (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/02/16/more-on-the-reconstituted-afl/)

[Samdari]

Seems like that is just a rebranding of AF2, which actually operated last year.

[Dr. Sak]

From what I've heard the NFL Network will air games.

[Kodos]

I saw this morning that Hartford is getting a UFL team. Or something like that.

[Young Drachma]

Seems like that is just a rebranding of AF2, which actually operated last year.

Well a few of the old top-tier teams have joined this one like Tampa Bay. A lot of the old AFL owners simply weren't going to come back to the new reconstituted league. They just couldn't rename it the same way because of the bankruptcy and of course, naming it the AFL would get them used.

I saw this morning that Hartford is getting a UFL team. Or something like that.

It's the New York Sentinels moving to the stadium where UConn plays.

[Pumpy Tudors]

NFL Network will air AF1 games almost every Friday throughout the season. They are not airing a game on the Friday of NFL draft weekend due to draft coverage.

Arizona, Cleveland, Orlando, Tampa Bay, Dallas, Utah, and Chicago return from the AFL. Not bad at all. I'm pretty excited about this sport coming back, but honestly, I don't think it'll last more than a couple of years. In my opinion, the window of opportunity for national exposure has closed. Other small indoor leagues will remain, and they will be more or less OK. The owners in AF1 are going to feel a lot of pressure to sell their sport, though, and I think the public has essentially given up on it. I hope I'm wrong.

[JeeberD]

Why in the heck did the Dallas team change their team name/mascot? The Dallas Desperadoes was pretty badass...does it have something to do with the old owners owning the rights to that name or something?

[Young Drachma]

Why in the heck did the Dallas team change their team name/mascot? The Dallas Desperadoes was pretty badass...does it have something to do with the old owners owning the rights to that name or something?

Their branding was heavily tied into the Dallas Cowboys branding and Jerry Jones still owns the rights to that name.

Their new look is 100% bush league though, goodness gracious.

[cuervo72]

Iowa not doing too well.

Shouldn't there be a 2010 season thread or something?

[Pumpy Tudors]

Shouldn't there be a 2010 season thread or something?
Why? So I can have a thread all to myself? :(

[Chief Rum]

Why? So I can have a thread all to myself? :(

What are you talking about? We would all follow you in to tease you.

[Chief Rum]

Seriously, though, Arena Football always looked to me like I would enjoy it, but whenever I have tried to get into it, I don't know, hasn't hooked. Maybe I'll give it another try.

[Flame Eater]

Arena football is like hockey. It's a great "live-at-the-arena" type sport that doesn't translate to TV very well, imho. Loud music, dancing girls, guys getting smacked over the boards, beers. Lots of fun. If you have a local squad, I highly recommend it.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I'm a little sad that the NFL Network is only airing games on Fridays. That's my bowling league night. On the bright side, all games except NFL Network games will air live on the internet (if I understand correctly), so I can catch some of those Saturday games. I am such an AFL nerd. :(

[Pumpy Tudors]

Dola

Watching the end of last night's Milwaukee-Spokane game right now. With 58 seconds to go, Milwaukee was up 61-49. Final score: Milwaukee 74, Spokane 62. The teams combined for 26 points in the final minute. I love this game.

[Dutch]

If anybody could convince an entire bowling league to change their night to Thursday...it would be you. Please let us know how it turns out.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Seems the AFL found a way to make Saturday night Sportscenter

ArenaFan Online: AFL ArenaFan Originals... - Wilson, Sippio Ejected for Going Into Stands (http://www.arenafan.com/news/?page=origcol&writer=113&article=3055)

TAMPA BAY -- With 0:41 remaining in the second quarter and the Orlando Predators leading the Tampa Bay Storm 42-14, a ruckus broke out at the St. Pete Times Forum. An altercation began in the stands between the Predators OL/DL Julius Wilson and some fans. Later on, WR Bobby Sippio joined the ruckus in the stands.

Brighthouse Sports Network reported that the altercation began over a football being thrown into the stands. Wide receiver Bobby Sippio had just caught a touchdown pass and threw the ball into the stands to his father. The ball was batted away. Wilson attempted to get the ball back to Sippio's father when the dispute broke out.

An Orlando Predators team representative later reported that the altercation involved Wilson's father. Per the team representative, the ball was handed to Wilson's father, who had the ball batted out of his hands. The ruckus broke out when fans were "kicking and punching" Wilson's father, who was knocked to the ground. Wilson retaliated by going into the stands. Sippio followed.

Both Wilson and Sippio were ejected from the game immediately before play could continue.

The Predators expect Wilson to be suspended for upcoming games, but no comment was made about the future status of Sippio.

[Ksyrup]

They score 12 TDs a game. Surely he could have given him the next one.

[Shkspr]

I'm sure nobody's hands are clean in this, but the slant of this article makes me think that if there's ever justification for fighting at the risk of your job, it's to go to your father's aid.

[Pumpy Tudors]

The AFL is surviving much better than I expected it to. Several cities that had AFL franchises in the past are coming in for 2011: Philadelphia, San Jose, Kansas City, Pittsburgh, and New Orleans. The Georgia Force will also be back, although I've read that they would be playing in Gwinnett rather than in Atlanta. My thoughts on this:

1. I'll be torn between two teams. The VooDoo got me into arena football, but I will be going to Pittsburgh games. This will be weird for me.

2. I never expected that the AFL would get back to some of their former cities so quickly. I really expected Philadelphia and San Jose to wait another year or two. I didn't expect New Orleans or Georgia to come back at all. Pittsburgh's been an expansion rumor for years, but it's finally happened.

3. Much to my surprise, this league looks like it can survive another 20 years as long as they play it smart. Don't expand much more, build the fan bases in your own cities before trying to get fans in non-AFL cities, and keep the salaries manageable.

4. I'm really looking forward to next season!

[JediKooter]

How are the Raiders looking in pre-season?

[Pumpy Tudors]

Eight months after my last post in this thread, I'm pleased with the progress of the AFL. The league is averaging about 8200 fans per game (and that number is brought down by the disaster in Milwaukee, which only brings in 2800 a game). I'm a Pittsburgh season ticket holder, and Pittsburgh is second in average attendance to Orlando, and Pittsburgh has drawn the highest single-game crowd all season. No, the league isn't pulling in 13000 people per game like it used to, but salaries are down, ticket prices seem reasonable across the league, and every game can be watched either on NFL Network or online. So even though attendance is cut by 1/3, the league can survive.

If the league keeps going for another couple of years - and I think it will - some better players will find their way into it. Right now, some of the teams are just horrible, frankly. New Orleans and Tampa Bay are AF2 teams in AFL clothing, Tulsa has no passing game, and Philadelphia is out of gas because they had to play their first 4 (!) games on the road. I think all of those teams except New Orleans will have a chance to improve and are likely to stick around long-term. Once the teams show some stability, they'll bring in the better players (especially quarterbacks), and that will improve things.

I don't think the AFL is far from being a moderate success again. Trim Milwaukee and New Orleans, get a team back into Los Angeles or New York, and start developing some quarterbacks. Don't get out of control with the spending, and the AFL could have another 20 years of life.

I'll be at the Pittsburgh game vs. Jacksonville on Saturday night. Go Power!

[RainMaker]

The Milwaukee problems are odd. I used to go to Mustang games in the 90's and they had decent attendance. It was a lot of fun and affordable. Todd Hammel was the man. Although maybe having a team in Chicago hurts a bit. I was driving up from nothern Illinois and would have probably just gone to a Rush game had they been around.

[EagleFan]

8200 fans per game. They're outdrawing the Nationals (if you take away the Phillies fans that went down for the games).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Attendance for the "new" Georgia Force (new franchise, same name) has averaged 5300 or so for the first two home games, third lowest in the league with about half what they drew back in '08.

Team is 3-1, so that isn't the problem. It isn't the arena holding them back, hell the ECHL Gladiators averaged 5,100 a night with a sub-500 team, and I believe the final season of the previous franchise was played in the same building they're in now. My best guess would be that they simply don't have pockets deep enough to promote heavily in an expensive media market like Atlanta, certainly less visible now than when Arthur Blank owned them for several years.

I imagine it'll pick up once school is out, right now the Braves would be getting the weekend sports action (since they're dead on weeknights until school ends) but truth is, I'm not feeling it. Also, I suspect things are somewhat shaky financially, they were hustling hard on the sponsorship end & damned near willing to give away the store for next to nothing. Explored them for a client a few months back, I've literally seen higher price tags for less visibility for high school football sponsorships.

[RainMaker]

I never understood the insistence of the AFL to push big cities. I always thought they'd do better having a strong presence in 2nd and 3rd tier cities. Des Moines, Spokane, Pittsburgh, San Jose, Tulsa, Salt Lake City, etc. Sure 10,000 might not seem like a great draw, but expenses are much cheaper and fans are more loyal. There are some big cities that can work. Chicago has done well although I think that's largely in part to some aggressive marketing and the fact Ditka was the face of the franchise. He has a lot of pull in this city and is always doing some local sports radio bit promoting the team.

If you haven't been to a game, you really should. Not sure if tickets are as cheap as they used to be, but they should be considerably less than most sports. The games are incredibly fun, high scoring, and casual. A great family atmosphere. Sort of what you'd get if you mixed an NFL game with the arena style entertainment of an NBA game (lights, music, mascots, etc). You won't care much about the result, although the games almost always tend to be close. It's good, cheap entertainment.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Not sure if tickets are as cheap as they used to be, but they should be considerably less than most sports.

Out of curiosity (since I hadn't looked), I checked. Range is $10 for upper deck end zone to $161 for damned near on the bench.

Corner of the end zone is $20, red zone is $35, mid field (high/mid/low) are $30/$45/$60.

By comparison, behind the dugout for the Gwinnett Braves is $17.50, 1st row behind home plate is $37.50. Gladiators hockey was $17 anywhere on the sides, $30 on the glass, $20 for club level (best place in that building to watch pretty much anything)

Yep, I'm starting to see the problem here. It's perceived as a low minors sport at best, but the price point is all wrong for that (at least in this market).

edit to add: I'm talking about the perception locally, not necessarily nationally. As I think Pumpy mentioned up the thread a bit, some of these teams are pretty close to AFL2 quality right now. I think the Force has a total of 1 D1 player on their roster (I went and looked again while typing, it's actually 7 of 24, with a few I-AA and roughly half from DII or below). Find a few guys people have some inkling of who they are, even if they're career backups, from schools local fans might recognize and it'd probably help at least a little bit. Hell, I don't even know where the QB's alma mater is (Linfield) and I can name more sports playing schools than the average bear.

Then again, spelling the alma mater of your 310 pound FB (Lenoir-Rhyne) correctly on your online roster might up the professionalism a little bit too.

[Ksyrup]

I appreciate the existence of the various arena leagues, if for no other reason than the absurdity of reading headlines like, "Lorenzen tosses 9 TDs in come-from-behind win."

[QuikSand]

I like seeing an old thread revived, and noticing the indicator that I apparently posted in it some time ago.

I like perusing a thread like this, with that in mind, hoping that whatever twaddle I had to say back then remains something I can stand behind. Cheap one-off semi-trivia reference here FTW. I'm not always proud, but I like it when the me of years ago more or less posted what the me of today wants to say when re-reading the thread without really remembering.

[RainMaker]

Out of curiosity (since I hadn't looked), I checked. Range is $10 for upper deck end zone to $161 for damned near on the bench.

Corner of the end zone is $20, red zone is $35, mid field (high/mid/low) are $30/$45/$60.

By comparison, behind the dugout for the Gwinnett Braves is $17.50, 1st row behind home plate is $37.50. Gladiators hockey was $17 anywhere on the sides, $30 on the glass, $20 for club level (best place in that building to watch pretty much anything)

Yep, I'm starting to see the problem here. It's perceived as a low minors sport at best, but the price point is all wrong for that (at least in this market).

The Chicago team seems similar, if not a little more expensive. I guess they benefit from being located in the wealthier suburban area. Still surprised they can get that kind of turnout. Then again, minor league hockey did extremely well here too.

I still have the ticket stub for the Milwaukee Mustang games I used to go to. $4 for upper deck. Can't beat that.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The Chicago team seems similar, if not a little more expensive. I guess they benefit from being located in the wealthier suburban area.

Well Gwinnett is about as affluent as Atlanta 'burbs get with the exception of a few sub-areas (i.e. north Fulton Co, east Cobb Co.)

Still surprised they can get that kind of turnout.

Might simply be as much about the relative popularity of pro football in the two markets. I mean, the G-Day spring game here in Athens this weekend could very well draw more people than the Force will get all season.

Then again, minor league hockey did extremely well here too.

One of the best bangs for the sports dollar in most markets, this was actually a down year for the Gladiators both on the ice and in the stands. Not sure how much longer they're going to make it honestly, simply because they're in such a rut that they aren't nearly as much fun to watch as when they were consistently competitive. Minor league hockey is awesome, unless it's bad minor league hockey which can be kind of painful to sit through (trust me, I saw that down in Macon with two franchises)

As for more obscure but fun sports in general, I still think that pro indoor soccer in Atlanta was at worst arguably the most fun I've ever had at any sporting event. Those damned evil Canton Invaders (circa 89-91) were as much fun to have as a rival as you could ask for.

[RainMaker]

I don't know if the minor league hockey team does as well now that the Blackhawks are good. They got real popular when the Blackhawks were horrible and the owner was trash. They came up with an amazing marketing strategy. They put up billboards throughout the city saying "Playoff Hockey is in Chicago" with their logo. It sort of became a running joke about which team was actually better. Tickets were cheap, games were good, and the atmosphere was nice.

The Rush have Ditka plastered over everything which I mentioned. I suppose a part of minor league sports is how well you are able to market the team. I wonder if they filled that roster with some guys who played locally if it would help. I do think Eric Zeier was on the roster at one point over there.

[Logan]

I like seeing an old thread revived, and noticing the indicator that I apparently posted in it some time ago.

I like perusing a thread like this, with that in mind, hoping that whatever twaddle I had to say back then remains something I can stand behind. Cheap one-off semi-trivia reference here FTW. I'm not always proud, but I like it when the me of years ago more or less posted what the me of today wants to say when re-reading the thread without really remembering.

The move here is to not look at the user names as you scroll through the posts. Try to figure out what you may have said, and when you can't find it, go back again and realize that 15 seconds before, you were calling yourself a schmuck.

I do it all the time.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I don't know if the minor league hockey team does as well now that the Blackhawks are good.

They may also not be doing as well because they're in a horribly matched marriage with the Thrashers that doesn't seem to make anyone happy. Chicago fans gripe about the quality of players & the roster moves, Atlanta fans gripe about the lack of quality ice time for the prospects (or suspects) and lack of coaching.

[rjolley]

The Georgia Force play out this way in Gwinett? Never knew that.

Actually, didn't know about the Force either...

[JonInMiddleGA]

The Georgia Force play out this way in Gwinett? Never knew that. Actually, didn't know about the Force either...

They started out there, then moved to Phillips for a couple of years when Blank owned them. Now the revived franchise (really just a new franchise that bought the rights to the old name) is back at Gwinnett Arena.

[Landshark44]

i took my family to three inexpensive games this week. we went to see the philadelphia union (mls), the lakewood blue claws,(minor league baseball team), and the philadelphia soul. my wife and two boys would all agree football is our favorite sport.

my wife hates soccer, but enjoyed the union game very much. i hate baseball, but managed to have a good time at the blueclaws game...

we all hated the soul game, to the point we left in the fourth quarter when the game was tied at 41. it was a nonstop barrage of advertising. every penalty was brought to you by LUNDYLAW, "call 1800lundylaw for your needs". after every play we were encouraged to go to chick filet after the game, or buy a chevy, or eat peanut chews.....

it sucked so bad......and i totally went into it, not only with an open mind, but fully expecting to enjoy the experience....we all couldn't wait to leave....

[Pumpy Tudors]

welp it ain't for everybody

[sterlingice]

That's kindof a neat week, tho- "Family Sports Week: Featuring MLS, AFL, and Class A baseball"

SI

[Landshark44]

welp it ain't for everybody

i'm not trying to put down something you enjoy in any way. i've watched games on tv before and found them to be quite entertaining....

but that was my first "live" game, and found the presentation to be quite irritating, as did almost everyone in my section. i'm not exagerating, when i say that they advertised something between every play. they actually referred to the penalty flags as "yellow lundylaw flags" and gave out the phone number after every penalty..

is this just a philly thing? or do all teams do this....?

[Pumpy Tudors]

i'm not trying to put down something you enjoy in any way. i've watched games on tv before and found them to be quite entertaining....

but that was my first "live" game, and found the presentation to be quite irritating, as did almost everyone in my section. i'm not exagerating, when i say that they advertised something between every play. they actually referred to the penalty flags as "yellow lundylaw flags" and gave out the phone number after every penalty..

is this just a philly thing? or do all teams do this....?
No, I didn't think you were just blindly putting it down, nor did I take any offense to it. The game really isn't for everybody (nothing is), so if you were turned off by something at the game, that's fine. It does suck that the experience was ruined by something that wasn't happening on the field, but I guess that's how Philadelphia runs things.

I can tell you that not all teams do that. I've been to several games in New Orleans and Pittsburgh, and that's never happened at any of the games I attended. I'm hoping that maybe the Soul just had way too much to advertise for their home opener and it'll slow down in the future, but I really don't know. Still a bummer that they ruined the game for you.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Had a random AFL moment this morning, figured I'd drop it into the thread.

Back in January we explored marketing opportunities with the Georgia Force. Didn't fit the client's needs or budget, no harm no foul.

Got an inquiry out of the blue from a different sales rep for them today, rather desperately trying to get a meeting to discuss possibilities for the 2012 season (which begins in like 10 months). Politely pointed him toward August as the time we'd start looking more closely at 2012 (client is on calendar year for budgeting)

Let me see here ... you're next to last in attendance in the league (crowds consistently smaller than even medium sized HS games), you're urgently trying to drum up trade for next year before this one is even half over (definitely not the norm for even minor league franchises), hmm ...

My advice would be for AFL fans not to start booking trips to Georgia to watch their favorite team on the road next year just yet.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Timely follow-up to my previous post about the Force.

Saw a press release today announcing the hiring of a new team president (Cory Howerton, ex-GM of the Cleveland Gladiators) who will be responsible for "all business activities of the club including ticket & sponsorship sales, game operations, media relations and community relations".

He's also got his own sports & entertainment company to run, "to serve the growing needs of specialty corporate driven partnerships within the sports industry".

The real question here seems to be whether he can also cook hot dogs for the concession stand & when he's going to find time to do the team laundry.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Now this is my kind of AFL ticket deal.

Got an email from the Gwinnett Arena mailing list. Free tickets for the final home game next Saturday night.

Well "free" turned out to be $0.75 each svc charge & $3.25 processing fee but for 4 tickets $6.75 total ain't a bad deal at all. 2nd row upper deck (small bldg though, so that's cool) on the aisle, corner of the end zone.

#2 team in the East vs the #1 team in the West, so the matchup ought to be decent. Between the two teams, there's exactly two players I've ever heard of - Maurice Purify (Nebraska WR) and Vince Vance (UGA OL). Otherwise it sort of feels like they've grabbed 40 guys out of the stands & given them uniforms.

[GrantDawg]

I wish I lived closer to Gwinnett. Well, technically I am closer than you, but not with the pain in the butt traffic between here and there. I really want to get to a Gwinnett Braves game someday. It is just a heck of a lot easier to get to Turner Field.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I wish I lived closer to Gwinnett. Well, technically I am closer than you, but not with the pain in the butt traffic between here and there. I really want to get to a Gwinnett Braves game someday. It is just a heck of a lot easier to get to Turner Field.

G-Braves is a pretty good experience IMO (although the concession prices are simply absurd), not as much pure baseball fun as the old ballpark at Macon but still good. I still want to try out Rome for comparisons sake.

I love me some Gwinnett Arena though, just a great fan experience whether it's hockey or concerts. The attitude of the staff makes such a difference, or rather the [i]lack[/] of attitude from the staff vs the yellow-shirt temp hire nazis at the Dome. Easily my favorite venue, one of the precious few that I don't absolutely dread dealing with.

I do give pretty high marks to the new Verizon Amphi in Alpharetta too, still has that new venue smell to it ... as opposed to the smell that has accumulated over years of hard use at Lakewood ;)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Lord have mercy that was rough.

Chicago wins 51-41 but it wasn't remotely that close, Georgia trailed by 30+ for chunks of the game & were never truly in it.

The last time I saw football that ugly there were 7 year olds involved & it was raining. The talent level (or lack thereof) is atrocious, I'd put what I saw roughly on par with the old AFL2, certainly nothing like what I recall from the previous incarnation of the league. Despite that, Chicago appears to have at least a handful of players who've not only played football before but also are receiving some coaching prior to the game. Georgia on the other hand looked as though they hit a couple of neighborhood bars late Friday/early Saturday & offered guys $50 to come play a game. You know it's bad when just before halftime my kid asks "think they'll have any Rush stuff at the merchandise table?"

Other odd random observations ... that was the whitest crowd I been with in years. Both minor league hockey & a Metallica concert in the same building were more diverse. Wasn't really expecting that ... Trust me, the press releases trumpeting the game as a "sell out" were a farce of TNA Wrestling proportions. They started offering free tickets last week so they may have run out of tickets to distribute but at no point was the building ever more than 60% full. The announced attendance of 9,000+ was downright comical, several people in my section actually kind of looked around like "huh? Where?" ... Given the embarrassing (at least I hope they were embarrassed) performance of the home team, it's probably a good thing that most of the freebie tickets weren't used (based on the almost empty upper section), that was definitely not something you'd want a fan you're trying to buy tickets in the future to have seen.

For essentially free & with less than an hours drive to the arena, it was a okay enough one-time thing to do on a Saturday night that had no other plans. But I wouldn't pay a buck to watch the product in its current form.