Pats steal a draft pick from Al Davis in his sleep

[CU Tiger]

What else can explain this?

ESPN reporting that the Raiders give a 2011 #1 to the Pats for Seymour

[Lathum]

can we just disband the Raiders if this is true.

[jeff061]

Was about to post that in NFL thread. I agree, I would have been happy with a 2nd.

Guess that also answers my question about why the Pats do so much business with Davis. He's a great lineman, but he hasn't had a year like his peak several years ago and is on the decline. He's also not going to sign a cap friendly contract.

[flere-imsaho]

A no-longer dominant D-lineman in the final year of his contract when you have decent depth and youth on the D-Line anyway for a potential 1.1 - 1.5?

If it's true: LOL. :D

[jeff061]

Pats fans thank the Raiders for Moss. And a prelimanry thank you for whoever we draft :D.

Enjoy Seymour! I do hope he does well, but yeah, I don't see him playing up to the value Davis seems to have assigned to him.

[Danny]

You guys are forgetting Raiders drafting history. Chances are good, even if he has declined some, that Seymour will out produce whoever the Raiders would have ended up choosing.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Wait... this means that the Raiders won't be able to draft a QB with a strong arm or a fast WR with bad hands or any of the guys projected to go undrafted that year. Dammit, we won't be able to laugh at the pick!

[Galaxy]

I love the Pats fans in the comments.

Patriots confirm Seymour trade to Raiders - Reiss' Pieces - Boston.com (http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/2009/09/patriots_confir_1.html)

[jeff061]

Pats fans are stoopid. :( Course boards like that aren't the best anywhere.

1st round pick for a year of his production or nothing at all. I don't see them franchising him next year and an extension was out of the question.

[NiteMaestro]

I was surprised by this too...
But then again, maybe Davis has something up his sleeve...

That's the thing with the Raiders, you never really know.
We make fun of Russell, Hayward-Bay, etc... But shoot. Crabtree's not in camp, and Jamarcus won the starting job...

Davis isn't like Jerry Jones folks... He does know football.

[Lathum]

I was surprised by this too...
But then again, maybe Davis has something up his sleeve...

That's the thing with the Raiders, you never really know.
We make fun of Russell, Hayward-Bay, etc... But shoot. Crabtree's not in camp, and Jamarcus won the starting job...

Davis isn't like Jerry Jones folks... He does know football.

lol

[larrymcg421]

When I was in MP leagues, I always heard that the value of a draft pick gets transitioned a round down for each year it takes for the team to receive the pick. So then it sounds like the Raiders traded a 3rd round pick for Seymour.

*I always thought this logic was silly.

[jeff061]

Sounds silly to me.

2011 is also the 1st year of a potential capped rookie scale, I'm sure that wasn't lost on them.

[stevew]

Waiting for Seymour to sign a 6 year 90M extension any time now.

I don't think the Raiders will be bad in 2011fwiw. They are due to be mediocre any time now.

[CU Tiger]

Davis isn't like Jerry Jones folks... He does know football.



HaHa
Really?
snicker

[Galaxy]

What happens if by some chance the 2011 season is delayed or becomes a lock-out?

[sterlingice]

What happens if by some chance the 2011 season is delayed or becomes a lock-out?

Hell, at this rate, Al might be try to do it single-handedly ;)

SI

[stevew]

they are having the 2011 draft regardless of a lockout.

[DaddyTorgo]

i was shocked to see this, but i'm happy with the deal. seymour wasn't going to be a cap-friendly contract, and he's certainly more replaceable than say Wilfork.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

What's all the talk of how the tRaiders do in 2011? Isn't a 2011 1st rd pick based on how they do in 2010?

[tucker rocky]

What if the Raiders, by some miracle hand-of-god, win the SB in 2010 season?

and

The Patriots ended up playing in the AFC Championship against the Raiders and lost in 2010 season?



Maybe the Patriots have an eye on someone in college, and want to secure a
vying spot?

Raiders are dumb for giving up a first rounder for a player on the backend of his career.

This is another reason Al Davis is way past sensible knowledge.

[NiteMaestro]

HaHa
Really?
snicker

He may not be the Davis we once knew... But his history has to be worth 'something'...
The teams Davis builds are smashmouth run, with a QB that can launch for the moon and receivers you can't cover deep.
DLine gets after the QB forcing them to throw to man coverage CBs and head-hunting Safeties, while the LB crew crashes hard on the ball, stuffing the opponent's run game, forcing them to throw over the middle to 'footstepped' receivers.

The formula works, but takes risks and time to build.
It wasn't 'too' long ago that the Raiders were kicking everyone's ass... (Pre-TuckRule, remember?)

[Lathum]

He may not be the Davis we once knew... But his history has to be worth 'something'...


His history means nothing.

Davis is an old fart who can't evolve. It takes time you say? Look at their last 4 drafts, they are a joke.

2009- 2 pro bowlers, one was the punter.
2008- 1 Pro bowler, the punter
2007- 1 pro bowler

None of those pro bowlers were drafted by the Raiders within the last 5 years. How much time are you giving him to turn it around?

They have drafter horribly and have given terrible free agent contracts ( Javon Walker- 6/55 mil)

They can't get anyone to come coach there, they have college coordinators turning the job down.


I'm not sure what you see about the Raiders that shows they are headed in the right direction. To me they are a total unorganized mess.

[NiteMaestro]

His history means nothing.

Davis is an old fart who can't evolve. It takes time you say? Look at their last 4 drafts, they are a joke.

2009- 2 pro bowlers, one was the punter.
2008- 1 Pro bowler, the punter
2007- 1 pro bowler

None of those pro bowlers were drafted by the Raiders within the last 5 years. How much time are you giving him to turn it around?

They have drafter horribly and have given terrible free agent contracts ( Javon Walker- 6/55 mil)

They can't get anyone to come coach there, they have college coordinators turning the job down.


I'm not sure what you see about the Raiders that shows they are headed in the right direction. To me they are a total unorganized mess.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all... They look horrible, and don't seem to have anything together. But I can't quite say it's Davis's fault.
He has the tools (granted, some errors, but no one's perfect), but it seems they just won't click together.

i.e., DeAngelo Hall was a shutdown CB out of Atlanta. He has the speed and athleticism to be great. Davis snagged him, and it seemed that him + the guy who's name I cannot spell or pronounce would be absolutely lethal. Turns out, Hall doesn't play press man well, and it blows up in Davis's face.
Bad move, but I don't think you can really blame him for it not working out. It seemed like a smart move!

[DaddyTorgo]

I'm not disagreeing with you at all... They look horrible, and don't seem to have anything together. But I can't quite say it's Davis's fault.
He has the tools (granted, some errors, but no one's perfect), but it seems they just won't click together.

i.e., DeAngelo Hall was a shutdown CB out of Atlanta. He has the speed and athleticism to be great. Davis snagged him, and it seemed that him + the guy who's name I cannot spell or pronounce would be absolutely lethal. Turns out, Hall doesn't play press man well, and it blows up in Davis's face.
Bad move, but I don't think you can really blame him for it not working out. It seemed like a smart move!

sure you can blame him for it - he or his coaches/scouts didn't watch enough tape to make sure that Hall could play press man well knowing they would ask him to do that??

as for the guy who's name you can't pronounce - in this house we call him "Need more ass mothafucka"

[Draft Dodger]

Sounds silly to me.

2011 is also the 1st year of a potential capped rookie scale, I'm sure that wasn't lost on them.

They also already have 3 2nd rounders next year, so that might also have been a (small) factor

[NiteMaestro]

'Needmore assmothafuka'?? Ah...
Thanks

You get my point though... He mad a move that looked smart, but it didn't work out.
I mean, alot of stuff's been rough in Oakland, but they have a great backfield now, a very good TE... Things are moving in bits and pieces, but it just won't come together.

[Lathum]

I'm not disagreeing with you at all... They look horrible, and don't seem to have anything together. But I can't quite say it's Davis's fault.
He has the tools (granted, some errors, but no one's perfect), but it seems they just won't click together.



Of course it is his fault, and I just don't see any of the tools you speak of.

Hall was a disaster who has major attitude issues, there is a reason the Falcons let him walk.

Davis is a control freak, instead of giving up the reigns and hiring a GM and coach that can evaluate talent he continues to take the Russels and DHB's of the world.

If it isn't Davis' fault who's fault is it?

[CU Tiger]

I remember Davis being darn near universally blasted for the Hall move.
And btw, Jerry has 3 rings since buying the team 89. Davis has 3 rings since 73?....

I am no Jerry Jones fan, though I am a diehard Cowboys fan, but to suggest the man can't build a team in TODAY'S NFL better than Al Davis is Laughable.

[Lathum]

I mean, alot of stuff's been rough in Oakland, but they have a great backfield now, .

A great backfield?

Bush had 421 yards and 3 TD's
Run DMC had 499 yards and 4 TD's
Fargus had 853 Yards and 1 TD

Statistically they were ranked 10th in rushing offense but only had 9 rushing TD's, tied for 4th worse.

And before you tell me they are young and on a bad team, Kevin Smith of the Lions had 976 yards and 8 TD's, one less than that whole Raiders team.

[NiteMaestro]

Hall left because of the drama in Atlanta.
Remember, he was Vick's teammate in college, so when that went down, it took a big toll on him.
Nonetheless, you cannot deny how solid he was in ATL... a gambler, yes, but still a problem on that side of the field.

Tools = McFadden, Fargas, Bush. A very good running back situation.
Russell's bazooka is a problem. With a solid run game, he's good enough to cause secondaries problems deeps.
Their TE Miller is very good and a willing blocker.
'Nnamdi Asomugha' is insane. Johnson stepped it up last year and is serviceable.
Janikowski will win games for you if needed (most of the time)
Huff is relatively solid, Morrison is a great MLB
and adding Ellis is helpful in passing situations.

Alot of pieces are there. But it's just not gelling, IMO.

[Lathum]

I am no Jerry Jones fan, though I am a diehard Cowboys fan, but to suggest the man can't build a team in TODAY'S NFL better than Al Davis is Laughable.

The Cowboys are a good head coach away from contending for the super bowl.

[NiteMaestro]

I remember Davis being darn near universally blasted for the Hall move.
And btw, Jerry has 3 rings since buying the team 89. Davis has 3 rings since 73?....

I am no Jerry Jones fan, though I am a diehard Cowboys fan, but to suggest the man can't build a team in TODAY'S NFL better than Al Davis is Laughable.

I was just picking on Jones' penchant for ignoring chemistry in recent history :p, relax.
I may not be a 'Boys fan, but I have a good friend who is... I know how y'all can get ;)

[NiteMaestro]

A great backfield?

Bush had 421 yards and 3 TD's
Run DMC had 499 yards and 4 TD's
Fargus had 853 Yards and 1 TD

Statistically they were ranked 10th in rushing offense but only had 9 rushing TD's, tied for 4th worse.

And before you tell me they are young and on a bad team, Kevin Smith of the Lions had 976 yards and 8 TD's, one less than that whole Raiders team.

IMO, that's a line or FB issue. Both are possible.
*edit - wrong term...*
What was their Red Zone efficiency?

[CU Tiger]

The Cowboys are a good head coach away from contending for the super bowl.


yep...

[Lathum]

IMO, that's a line or FB issue. Both are possible.
*edit - wrong term...*
What was their Red Zone efficiency?

whay does their red zone efficiency matter? And it can't be good, they had 9 total rushing TD's as a team.

Line problem? What about Smith, or Steve Slaton? Frank Gore?

I'm sorry, but it seems you are seeing something the rest of us aren't.

[NiteMaestro]

yep...

Iunno, Romo is a wild card IMO.
No question the Boy's can get to the playoffs, but can they win?
Romo needs to show me a lil bit more before, personally.

[NiteMaestro]

whay does their red zone efficiency matter? And it can't be good, they had 9 total rushing TD's as a team.

Line problem? What about Smith, or Steve Slaton? Frank Gore?

I'm sorry, but it seems you are seeing something the rest of us aren't.

If they have the yards, then clearly either the line is very good, or the RBs are. Lack of red zone production then points to the latter, or bad playcalling (something I forgot).

Nonetheless, you can't be 10th in rushing and not have 'something' going for you...
I just feel that the Raiders aren't bad... More of that they have 'bad luck'.

(and no, I'm not a Raiders fan, FTR)

[CU Tiger]

Iunno, Romo is a wild card IMO.
No question the Boy's can get to the playoffs, but can they win?
Romo needs to show me a lil bit more before, personally.


So Romo is a question mark but Russel is a threat?

As far as I can count the guy has had one great game in his life and that was in college.

[NiteMaestro]

So Romo is a question mark but Russel is a threat?

As far as I can count the guy has had one great game in his life and that was in college.

Look at what I said.
I said he's a threat *throwing the ball deep*.
That's key.

He's not going to have alot of throws, but his YPA and YPC averages should be high because of it. He's a 'big play' QB. One you get for that and that alone.

Romo is a 'crafty' QB. He makes the throws he needs to, and is dangerous because of is 'savvy', not his arm. (not saying he can't launch it, but his arm strength isn't like Russell's)

Look at the Cowboy's offense now... They have a solid run game, a dominating defense, and their main receivers are *possession* and *route running* guys (though I like what I see from ur no.2 TE).

Russell will beat you deep.

Romo will pick you apart.

9/10 I'd pick Romo, but if I have the tools (deep threat receivers vs. possession guys) Russell may be a better choice.


So to clarify, Romo is a '?' in postseason play, because he hasn't done particularly well down the stretch...
Russell hasn't even gotten there, so I can't say anything about him as far as late/postseason moxy is concerned.

[Lathum]

'
I mean, alot of stuff's been rough in Oakland, but they have a great backfield now, .





Look at the Cowboy's offense now... They have a solid run game,


.


so Oakland has a great backfield but Dallas' is only solid?

FWIW I'm a Giants fan so there is no love for the Cowgirls.

[NiteMaestro]

There's a difference.

A great 'backfield' does not guarantee a 'solid run game'. (though it does help)

A solid run game is a threat to score as well as productive.
I like to think of a solid run game as complimentary.

That does mean it may differ for each team, but the key is that it helps out the passing game, and vice versa.

Barber, Choice, and Jones are very good backs, and injuries keep me from calling them 'great' yet. But I do see the potential.
However, more importantly, they were 'effective', and 'solid'.

The Raiders didn't score from the run, so though the numbers show that these guys can run the ball, they didn't have a solid run 'game' because they were no threat to score.

Make sense?
(kinda crazy, i know... but i'm a lil crazy to begin with.)

[flounder]

Would it be fair to say that you think the Raiders are looking great in the preseason?

[NiteMaestro]

Eh... Not really.
Let me clarify. Great? No.

Better? Somewhat

Confident? No
Possible sleeper? Yes

With all the ruckus in Denver, I see Oakland challenging for 2nd in the division, with Kansas City possibly being 3rd (if things go their way... i.e. Cassel, continued drama in DEN... etc.)

[Lathum]

Would it be fair to say that you think the Raiders are looking great in the preseason?

hahahahahahahahaha


awesome!

[bulletsponge]

You guys are forgetting Raiders drafting history. Chances are good, even if he has declined some, that Seymour will out produce whoever the Raiders would have ended up choosing.

aww crap! thank you patriots for ruining that draft for us all :mad:

[SteveMax58]

The problem with the Raiders(i.e. Al Davis' decision-making) is that they(he) honestly believe that better athletes equates to better football players. And...even if that was right all things considered...they believe the better athlete is also THAT much faster/stronger/etc. than the rest of the athletes instead of realizing precise execution of plays will net you better results over the long haul.

There are so many factors that go into building a team these days that you didn't need to consider (because everybody else didn't either) compared to Al's heyday. You have to have a "system". And you need players for that "system".

Run the ball well and throw deep is not a "system"...it's a cliche. That's like saying I'm a daytrader and my strategy is to buy low and sell high...no shit.

Good coaches understand the above and realize that picking a bunch of athletes that excelled in other team's "systems" isn't how you get the most productive players for your own. They realize it's a no-win situation and requires too many fortunate occurrences to be successful. So good/proven coaches will not bother with Al's BS when push comes to shove. Gruden was able to succeed to a degree because he was smart enough to adapt to Al's nonsense, fortunate enough to have had a solid veteran QB for his offense, and desparate enough due to his age at the time. Notice he was smart enough to get out of there too.

They also realize that any coach who has his nuts cutoff by the owner is at a significant disadvantage when trying to motivate and cultivate a team. Those players brought in via free agency should feel like the coach brought me in...not Al Davis...and if I half-ass it for this coach, I will not be back because the coach is the only reason I'm here in the first place. It's management 101.

I will say this much...the Raiders are definitely moving closer to success every year...unfortunately that's only because Al is closer to dying. I like and admire Al Davis for what he did for football...but he has got to get his ass out of football decisions.

[NiteMaestro]

Run the ball well and throw deep is not a "system"...it's a cliche. That's like saying I'm a daytrader and my strategy is to buy low and sell high...no shit.

Good point.
'Nuff said.

[NiteMaestro]

Check the typo...
When did the Pat's draft Seymour?

2011? ROTF

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/6845/draftedwhen.tif

[larrymcg421]

"Hey Richard, how's it going?"

"Pretty good. I'm really excited about the season. We got a great team. I look forward to playing for another Superbowl."

"Yeah, about that..."


**************

"Hey Richard, how's it going?"

"Pretty good. I'm excited to help you guys rebuild."

"Great. go line up for the 40 yard dash. The top 22 times will make the starting lineup."

"Uhhhhh....."

[EagleFan]

I really don't know what is funnier:

The Raiders or the Patriots fans commenting on that story acting as if they just traded Brady away.

[Danny]

so Oakland has a great backfield but Dallas' is only solid?

FWIW I'm a Giants fan so there is no love for the Cowgirls.

Actually the Raiders do have exceptional talent at RB between Mcfadden and Bush with Fargas as a reserve Considering the Raiders passing game and defense ranking 9th last year in rushing is pretty impressive. TD's have a lot to do with your passing game and defense, and putting the runners in position to score. That was rare for the Raiders.

[JPhillips]

I really don't know what is funnier:

The Raiders or the Patriots fans commenting on that story acting as if they just traded Brady away.

At least Seymour is a proven player. Over on Bengals.com the forums areloaded with people who think cutting Chris Pressley was the worst personal move of the past decade.

[Lathum]

Actually the Raiders do have exceptional talent at RB between Mcfadden and Bush with Fargas as a reserve Considering the Raiders passing game and defense ranking 9th last year in rushing is pretty impressive. TD's have a lot to do with your passing game and defense, and putting the runners in position to score. That was rare for the Raiders.

Do the Jets have exceptional talent at WR because they were ranked 9th in receiving last year.

Until a Raiders back steps up and has a 1300/ 12 TD season there is no way I consider them talented.

[Danny]

Look at context Lathum. The Raiders had the makings for a poor run offense. No passing attack, terrible run defense which allows the other team to control the clock and build leads. It is impressive that despite all that they ranked 4th in the league. And they will be better this year with Mcfadden and Bush seeing more touches over Fargas.

Also, considering they will be using three different backs that isn't going to happen. Oh and Brandon Jacobs hasn't hit 1300 yards either, he must suck too.

Considering the Raiders had a terrible passing attack, and probably the worst run defense in the league and still managed to win 5 games is indicative they have a little bit of talent some where. That pretty much is the RB's and starting CB's. Apply your definition to all teams, there is maybe what 4 or 5 teams talented at RB. Just because a team doesn't have a 1300 yard rusher doesn't mean their RB's as a whole are not talented.

[Lathum]

Also, considering they will be using three different backs that isn't going to happen. Oh and Brandon Jacobs hasn't hit 1300 yards either, he must suck too.

.

gimme a break.

Jacobs went for 1100 and 15 TD's while missing 3 games.

The Raiders backs have talent and I get the passing game effects that. My point is the Nite is trying to make it sound like the Raiders are headed in the right direction and they aren't.

There are other backs in the league who put up much bigger number is just as bad situations. Smith, Gore, Forte, Jackson, etc...

There are guys who put up much bigger numbers with equally bad QB/ OL situations.

Defending the Raiders or saying they have any semblance of an organized plan of insanity.

[Cap Ologist]

"Hey Richard, how's it going?"

"Pretty good. I'm really excited about the season. We got a great team. I look forward to playing for another Superbowl."

"Yeah, about that..."


**************

"Hey Richard, how's it going?"

"Pretty good. I'm excited to help you guys rebuild."

"Great. go line up for the 40 yard dash. The top 22 times will make the starting lineup."

"Uhhhhh....."

lol

[Danny]

Defending the Raiders or saying they have any semblance of an organized plan of insanity.

Where did I say any of that? I simply said they have a talented group of running backs.

Since you brought it up, until proven otherwise I do believe the Raiders are a franchise in disarray. Hopefully one of these years things will change, but I am not getting my hopes up. Fortunately I will have my fantasy teams and there are some others teams i enjoy rooting for on a secondary basis as well.

[Lathum]

Where did I say any of that? I simply said they have a talented group of running backs.

Since you brought it up, until proven otherwise I do believe the Raiders are a franchise in disarray. Hopefully one of these years things will change, but I am not getting my hopes up. Fortunately I will have my fantasy teams and there are some others teams i enjoy rooting for on a secondary basis as well.

I never said you did, in fact I was very clear is saying it was Nite that was.

[NiteMaestro]

gimme a break.

Jacobs went for 1100 and 15 TD's while missing 3 games.

The Raiders backs have talent and I get the passing game effects that. My point is the Nite is trying to make it sound like the Raiders are headed in the right direction and they aren't.

There are other backs in the league who put up much bigger number is just as bad situations. Smith, Gore, Forte, Jackson, etc...

There are guys who put up much bigger numbers with equally bad QB/ OL situations.

Defending the Raiders or saying they have any semblance of an organized plan of insanity.

My point is not so much that the Raiders are heading in the right direction (since we really don't know/cannot say), but more that they seem to resemble the old Raider teams, and that Davis, however crazy he is, has proved folks wrong enough that we should *shrug* rather than *scold*.
The Raiders have clear potential, and Davis is a big part of that. So give him some credit.

[NiteMaestro]

I never said you did, in fact I was very clear is saying it was Nite that was.

I'm more of defending Davis than the Raiders.

I feel that one's history should come into play with these things, and given Davis's history (crazy moves, that somehow work). I say wait and see... This may be one of those moves that years later seem genius.

[Lathum]

I'm more of defending Davis than the Raiders.


How can you defend one without the other, he is judge, jury and executioner.


I feel that one's history should come into play with these things, and given Davis's history (crazy moves, that somehow work). I say wait and see... This may be one of those moves that years later seem genius.

What move is that exactly, look at the last 4-5 draft classes. They are dreadful. Compound that with the terrible free agent signings and inability to keep a quality coach and what is there to defend?

[Logan]

I'm more of defending Davis than the Raiders.

IP check please.

[NiteMaestro]

How can you defend one without the other, he is judge, jury and executioner.



What move is that exactly, look at the last 4-5 draft classes. They are dreadful. Compound that with the terrible free agent signings and inability to keep a quality coach and what is there to defend?

Davis runs the Raiders, but the Raiders are the players themselves in my mind. Basically, Front Office, vs. the Field.

And are you suggesting we should let 4-5 years overshadow his over 50(ish) total? So he's having a rough spot right now, like JoePa did not too long ago... His history gives him a 'pass' in my mind. He took some risks, they didn't quite work. But who's Al Davis but a man who takes risks?

Maybe he got rid of the pick because he didn't feel comfortable with it? Didn't see anyone he liked that may come out in the draft?
Who knows?

Let's not forget, this trade makes the Raider defense alot more formidable, as with him and Ellis, there is a very good pass rush, combined with very good press corners...

[Logan]

I....P....check....please!!!!

[NiteMaestro]

I....P....check....please!!!!

I'm off topic??
I didn't think so, but my bad if I am...

[stevew]

how the AI?

[EagleFan]

Jacobs went for 1100 and 15 TD's while missing 3 games.


O-VER-RA-TED



:devil:

[Lathum]

O-VER-RA-TED



:devil:

:mad:

[panerd]

I'm off topic??
I didn't think so, but my bad if I am...

Not at all. I have some blackjack questions for you though...

[CU Tiger]

And are you suggesting we should let 4-5 years overshadow his over 50(ish) total?


No, the last 15 years, except the brief period when John Gruden earned his trust and was calling the shots have been a train wreck.

I mean Elizabeth Taylor was smoking in her day, but you would ignore her last 4-5 years and man up, right?

[CU Tiger]

Not at all. I have some blackjack questions for you though...

Its not the game for him....

[Jughead Spock]

Wow. I didn't think there was anyone left to defend Al. I've been a lifelong Raiders fan, but I'm on hiatus until he's gone.

Let's look at some of these moves lately, just off the top of my head.

Warren Sapp
Larry Brown
DeAngelo Hall - and yeah, everyone universally derided this move as typical Al Davis - 'I don't care if he can play, he's FAST!'
Javon Walker

Or how about draft picks
Heyward-Bey - 20+ picks higher than ANYONE would've thought. Questionable hands, which is always nice in a WR.
Mitchell - a 5th round pick taken in the 2nd.
Russell - Cannon for an arm, no work ethic. Yippee.
Janikowski in the first round. He's NEVER been clutch.

The coaches
White
Bugel
"TRADING" Gruden away. Like an 'oops, I made a good move, better get rid of him.
Callahan
Turner
Shell re-tread, after firing him too soon earlier (also, see Shanahan).
Kiffin and that whole embarrassing debacle
Cable - because nobody else wanted it.


And to go back further, I started losing respect for Al with how he handled Marcus Allen, probably my all-time favorite player. Then there was suing the City of Oakland many times over, even though they're pretty much bankrupt as it is.

Al is indefensible. Just because he finds a gem once every 4-5 years doesn't excuse his awful management overall.

ETA: NAMMdee AssaMOOwa is the best CB in football. Surprised the Raiders re-signed him.

[stevew]

It's fairly easy to sign a player when you offer him the franchise tender for 3 consecutive seasons, pretty much all guaranteed. He probably has the best contract in football right now.

[JS19]

Look at what I said.
I said he's a threat *throwing the ball deep*.
That's key.

He's not going to have alot of throws, but his YPA and YPC averages should be high because of it. He's a 'big play' QB. One you get for that and that alone.



Russell will beat you deep.




Not claiming to be a football guru whatsoever, so I may be way off base here, but what has Russell done to make him any type of QB, let alone a "big play QB"? To me, he is just another athletic guy who was able to dominate college kids, but will never make it in the NFL.

[Swaggs]

how the AI?

That's what I have been thinking all weekend. :)

[stevew]

Nah, this dude uses tense and structure that leads me to believe he's not JB.

Brassmonkey32 on the other hand......

[BishopMVP]

I love rooting for a team/front office that has the job security and confidence to do what's right for the long-term interests of the club, and not sell out the future to win now/keep a job.

[Lathum]

Not at all. I have some blackjack questions for you though...

Make one bad draft pick, if that doesn't work out next year make two bad draft picks, if that doesn't work out next year make foour bad draft picks, if that doesn't work out maybe NFL owner/ GM/ CEO/ Director of player personal isn't for you.

[dubb93]

In all seriousness here I think so highly of the AFC West that I'm willing to predict the Raiders will finish second in the AFC West....somewhere around 6-7 games out of first place though.

[jeff061]

Cable: Real quickly about the Richard Seymour issue. We have attempted to make a deal. There are some issues still between him and the Patriots that are being worked out. Hoping that will be resolved as quickly as possible. We know that the player wants to be here, but we have no control really over those issues. That’s really all I’m going to talk about it for now.
Q: Can you tell us how you know he wants to be here? Have you spoken with him?
Cable: I have talked to him.
Q: So he said he wants to be here?
Cable: Yes.

I can not figure out what the holdup would be if Seymour is really trying to get to Oakland. Anyone have any insight?

Before this the only holdup I was aware of would be Seymour refusing to take a physical, which would get ugly, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

[DaddyTorgo]

lol - why would he want to be in oakland?

[jeff061]

Not a clue in the world. Good chance someone is lying I suppose. Cable saying Seymour wants to be there and that he spoke to him about it surprised me far more than Seymour being a no show.

Seymour is the type to calmly and quietly blow this deal. Ugh, that would be a mess.

[DaddyTorgo]

aaaah - this from 11:47am today

seems likely to me he's holding out to demand that the team won't use the franchise tag on him, or else for an extension. let's hope it's not for the franchise-tag thing and that whatever it is contractually gets worked out, otherwise i could see him being a real PITA about this




The Raiders just went through a late morning walk-through, and no sign of defensive lineman Richard Seymour reporting for duty.
UPDATE: Seymour is not with the team for the afternoon practice and has not reported for a physical. He hasn't been issued a jersey number or locker, a team official said.
The Raiders traded for the five-time Pro Bowler early Sunday morning, so it's not like he hasn't had a chance to hop on a plane from Boston. But with school-aged children and no season opener until Monday, maybe he's just not in a rush.
In the NFL, a deal isn't a deal until the player takes and passes a physical with his new team. So when should fans worry this blockbuster deal may become a headache?
It depends on what Raiders coach Tom Cable says after the 12:45 p.m. practice. On Sunday afternoon, he said he had not spoken with Seymour yet. If he says the same today, then, yeah, something is uo.
Seymour is angry about the trade, according to SI.com writer Peter King (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/09/06/mmqb/1.html), citing a Seymour friend who said he may not report.
So then what?
The guys at profootballtalk.com laid out what happens next (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/09/07/seymour-could-eventually-get-five-day-letter/), per a league spokesman. In short, he'd get a five-day letter before putting him on a reserve/left squad list. But once he's on that list, he can't play for anyone in 2009 -- the Raiders included. His contract would then roll into 2010, keeping him from becoming an unrestricted free agent.
It's unlikely Seymour will force his way back onto the Patriots roster. He could hold out for a contract extension before reporting to Oakland -- remember, this is a guy who held out twice on the Pats. Or, he could demand the team does not use the franchise tag on him after his contract expires at season's end.
Maybe this is a lot of talk about nothing. The sooner Seymour reports for duty, the sooner everyone stops wondering what's going on.

[NiteMaestro]

That's what I have been thinking all weekend. :)

Nope. Not Jim in a 'different form', so I have no clue whatsoever.
But I do have some ideas... :p


Not claiming to be a football guru whatsoever, so I may be way off base here, but what has Russell done to make him any type of QB, let alone a "big play QB"? To me, he is just another athletic guy who was able to dominate college kids, but will never make it in the NFL.

When I say 'Big Play' when referring to a QB, I mean that they have some elite athletic tool that makes them capable of producing big plays 'easier' than your average QB. With Russell, it's his arm and size. He can throw the deep ball alot quicker and easier than "Joe Schmo" and his size makes him more difficult to sack in the pocket. Given that, a burner-style receiver can just gun it off the line, Russell take a 3 step drop and launch it, and watch the fireworks.

Would it work? More likely than not, No.
But the threat of it forces teams to respect it.

[gstelmack]

Well, the obvious question would be if Seymour was so settled in New England, why has he been so difficult with contract issues?

But most likely he was hoping to get traded to someone good, and New England sent him to the highest bidder.

[NiteMaestro]

Wow. I didn't think there was anyone left to defend Al. I've been a lifelong Raiders fan, but I'm on hiatus until he's gone.

Let's look at some of these moves lately, just off the top of my head.

Warren Sapp
Larry Brown
DeAngelo Hall - and yeah, everyone universally derided this move as typical Al Davis - 'I don't care if he can play, he's FAST!'
Javon Walker

Or how about draft picks
Heyward-Bey - 20+ picks higher than ANYONE would've thought. Questionable hands, which is always nice in a WR.
Mitchell - a 5th round pick taken in the 2nd.
Russell - Cannon for an arm, no work ethic. Yippee.
Janikowski in the first round. He's NEVER been clutch.

The coaches
White
Bugel
"TRADING" Gruden away. Like an 'oops, I made a good move, better get rid of him.
Callahan
Turner
Shell re-tread, after firing him too soon earlier (also, see Shanahan).
Kiffin and that whole embarrassing debacle
Cable - because nobody else wanted it.


And to go back further, I started losing respect for Al with how he handled Marcus Allen, probably my all-time favorite player. Then there was suing the City of Oakland many times over, even though they're pretty much bankrupt as it is.

Al is indefensible. Just because he finds a gem once every 4-5 years doesn't excuse his awful management overall.

ETA: NAMMdee AssaMOOwa is the best CB in football. Surprised the Raiders re-signed him.

Sapp = Great player, bad fit. He'll tell you that himself. He didn't like the culture of Oakland, and only left Tampa out of protest of the Dungy firing (as did Lynch and others TMK).

Larry Brown = I don't know enough about him/his situation to say. You may very well be right. Just don't know.

DeAngelo Hall = Yeah, should've done more research, but isn't that ur personnel director's job? Isn't he supposed to tell you that it won't fit? And who's to say that they did do research on him, and were wrong? People are human, y'know.

Javon Walker = I know he's a WR, but nothing else... How long has he been in the league?

Heyward-Bay = At least he's in camp...

Mitchell = Some said the same about Guy... 5th rounders have become superstars, and 2nd rounders have busted. Give him a chance. He's athletic, and big. Al loves his H/W/S guys... so we'll see.

Russell = I think he's immature. Cable got on him, and I think that had an effect, as did picking up Garcia. I think he may have been a lil spooked about losing his job after those things... I expect him to improve. Maybe not numbers-wise, but definitely maturity-wise.

Janikowski = He has a boot though... I personally value big footed punters over big footed kickers... Maybe they hoped to convert him kinda like the Chiefs did with Mr. Irrelevant?

As far as coaches, my football awareness was very low during the time of White and Bugel.
Gruden trade? I point the finer at Tampa. Besides, he always seemed like a better coordinator/assistant than coach to me... But that's just my opinion.

Callahan - Dunno, honestly
Turner - See above.
Shell re-tread, after firing him too soon earlier (also, see Shanahan). - iunno.
Kiffin and that whole embarrassing debacle - I saw that coming from day one, but he must have appealed to Al...
Cable - because nobody else wanted it. - lol

So maybe he's not the best at picking coaches, but he does have an eye for talent though.
And TBH, my understanding of the coaching situation in Oakland is mediocre at best, so take my quips on them (except Gruden) with a grain of salt.

I do think a big part of it is how quickly teams expect their coach to produce though. Consistency goes a long way (see Titans, Steelers, Eagles, etc.), something I've never really known Al for being...
But like I said, I'm not one to really say much about the coaches. My football awareness may be deep, but it's pretty limited due to my age. :p

[gstelmack]

Javon Walker = I know he's a WR, but nothing else... How long has he been in the league?

Dude, if you're going to defend the indefensible, at least be up on their recent huge free agent signings...

[DaddyTorgo]

But most likely he was hoping to get traded to someone good, and New England sent him to the highest bidder.

yeah...this exactly i'm sure. but he should have known he was going to get shipped to the highest bidder - he's no rookie, he knows how the NFL works

[NiteMaestro]

Dude, if you're going to defend the indefensible, at least be up on their recent huge free agent signings...

I'm not a big Raiders fan at all, and live on the East Coast... I hardly ever hear about them...

*does quick research*

Ah. I remember him.

Well, though I question the contract personally... It looks like he's a productive receiver.
A bit injury prone, and has some seriously bad luck...
But hey. I don't see the big problem really.

He should have a solid year IMO.

Hell... It's better than Lelie!!

[Jughead Spock]

My football awareness may be deep, but it's pretty limited due to my age.

That's cool. I'm not gonna get bent out of shape about it, you admit you don't know all the particulars. I'd encourage you to read into some of the things I mentioned though to get the picture of why pretty much everyone thinks Al Davis has loved his ever-lovin' mind. If he'd have stuck with Gruden and started working his way out of the day-to-day at that point, the Raiders wouldn't be such a laughing stock.

[NiteMaestro]

That's cool. I'm not gonna get bent out of shape about it, you admit you don't know all the particulars. I'd encourage you to read into some of the things I mentioned though to get the picture of why pretty much everyone thinks Al Davis has loved his ever-lovin' mind. If he'd have stuck with Gruden and started working his way out of the day-to-day at that point, the Raiders wouldn't be such a laughing stock.

I personally feel that the Gruden thing is more Tampa Bay's fault than Oakland.

But I'll look it up...

[Lathum]

Honestly Nite, your arguments keep getting worse and worse.

It makes me tink you have no knowledge of football or what it takes to build a winning football team.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Was Tommy Kelly any good last year? The Raiders caught a lot of flack for that contract too.

[panerd]

Honestly Nite, your arguments keep getting worse and worse.

It makes me tink you have no knowledge of football or what it takes to build a winning football team.

And this surprises you that a guy who has been defending Al Davis the entire thread might be lacking some knowledge about football?

[Danny]

The Gruden trade itself wasn't a problem. He wanted out and they got an excellent trade for him. Now, the likely meddling Al did that caused the desire for Gruden to want out is a different story. And then of course, the crap that has followed for several years. Al has lost it, there really is no debating that. He was once the man and contributed more to football than most other owners could dream of, but has really needed to step back for quite some time. It's a shame too because the Raiders, not considering the last 7 years are one of the most successful and storied franchises in professional sports.

[Glengoyne]

Wow. I didn't think there was anyone left to defend Al. I've been a lifelong Raiders fan, but I'm on hiatus until he's gone.

Let's look at some of these moves lately, just off the top of my head.

Warren Sapp
Larry Brown
DeAngelo Hall - and yeah, everyone universally derided this move as typical Al Davis - 'I don't care if he can play, he's FAST!'
Javon Walker

Or how about draft picks
Heyward-Bey - 20+ picks higher than ANYONE would've thought. Questionable hands, which is always nice in a WR.
Mitchell - a 5th round pick taken in the 2nd.
Russell - Cannon for an arm, no work ethic. Yippee.
Janikowski in the first round. He's NEVER been clutch.

The coaches
White
Bugel
"TRADING" Gruden away. Like an 'oops, I made a good move, better get rid of him.
Callahan
Turner
Shell re-tread, after firing him too soon earlier (also, see Shanahan).
Kiffin and that whole embarrassing debacle
Cable - because nobody else wanted it.


And to go back further, I started losing respect for Al with how he handled Marcus Allen, probably my all-time favorite player. Then there was suing the City of Oakland many times over, even though they're pretty much bankrupt as it is.

Al is indefensible. Just because he finds a gem once every 4-5 years doesn't excuse his awful management overall.

ETA: NAMMdee AssaMOOwa is the best CB in football. Surprised the Raiders re-signed him.

+1
I was going to edit out parts of this that I couldn't resoundingly support. Yet I kept finding stuff that matched my opinion.

I too was a fan, I was only a Raider fan. I started to back down with the Marcus Allen affair. I was completely lost by the time of the Tuck Ruling. I warmed when Gruden roamed the sidelines, and then rooted against the Raiders in their last SuperBowl appearance.

Al Davis must go. Since he can't realistically be fired, I've got to hope he dies. Is that wrong?

[jeff061]

Its simple. The Raiders make the right move every single time. Other teams just pick on them and they are the unluckiest organization in professional sports. I don't know how you can argue against that.

[jeff061]

Al Davis must go. Since he can't realistically be fired, I've got to hope he dies. Is that wrong?

Only if you want him to die before 2011.

[Eaglesfan27]

+1

Al Davis must go. Since he can't realistically be fired, I've got to hope he dies. Is that wrong?

You could just hope that he gets declared mentally incompetent and has control of the team taken away from him. I think it is only a matter of time as he likely has some form of dementia, at least based on some of his football decisions.

[Danny]

+1
I was going to edit out parts of this that I couldn't resoundingly support. Yet I kept finding stuff that matched my opinion.

I too was a fan, I was only a Raider fan. I started to back down with the Marcus Allen affair. I was completely lost by the time of the Tuck Ruling. I warmed when Gruden roamed the sidelines, and then rooted against the Raiders in their last SuperBowl appearance.

Al Davis must go. Since he can't realistically be fired, I've got to hope he dies. Is that wrong?

You were never really a fan then. I may not like what Davis has been doing with the team, but they are still my team. Doesn't stop me from having other teams I like and will root for as long as doesn't effect the Raiders though.

[Danny]

You could just hope that he gets declared mentally incompetent and has control of the team taken away from him. I think it is only a matter of time as he likely has some form of dementia, at least based on some of his football decisions.

I agree with this, and think it will happen in the next 3-5 years maximum.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Honestly Nite, your arguments keep getting worse and worse.

It makes me tink you have no knowledge of football or what it takes to build a winning football team.
I probably wouldn't go that far when talking about NiteMaestro's arguments, but there's one important point. NiteMaestro wants to give Al Davis a pass because of Al's history, yet he doesn't really seem to know Al's history. I think that makes it pretty hard to build a defense of Al.

NiteMaestro, what people here are trying to say is that Al Davis doesn't know what he's doing, and the recent results seem to suggest that also. The Raiders are the laughingstock of the AFC, and you could possibly say that they're the laughingstock of the NFL. At least people feel sorry for the Lions. I don't think anybody feels sorry for the Raiders. This is all pretty much because of Al Davis himself.

[Danny]

Oh and the one aspect I still respect from Al Davis is that he wants to win. Even now, with him being incompetent and quite possibly even senile, he still wants to win probably as much or more than any other owner.

[NiteMaestro]

You were never really a fan then. I may not like what Davis has been doing with the team, but they are still my team. Doesn't stop me from having other teams I like and will root for as long as doesn't effect the Raiders though.

+1

[Kodos]

When I saw this trade on NFL Network's little update bar, I was thinking that the NFL must have poor trading AI.

[DaddyTorgo]

You were never really a fan then. I may not like what Davis has been doing with the team, but they are still my team. Doesn't stop me from having other teams I like and will root for as long as doesn't effect the Raiders though.

people telling other people that they are or are not fans based on their own individual criteria of what defines a fan really pisses me the fuck off :rant:

[NiteMaestro]

I probably wouldn't go that far when talking about NiteMaestro's arguments, but there's one important point. NiteMaestro wants to give Al Davis a pass because of Al's history, yet he doesn't really seem to know Al's history. I think that makes it pretty hard to build a defense of Al.

NiteMaestro, what people here are trying to say is that Al Davis doesn't know what he's doing, and the recent results seem to suggest that also. The Raiders are the laughingstock of the AFC, and you could possibly say that they're the laughingstock of the NFL. At least people feel sorry for the Lions. I don't think anybody feels sorry for the Raiders. This is all pretty much because of Al Davis himself.

As I said before, he has made mistakes, but when I look at this team on paper, when I look at the decisions he makes considering the time at which he made them...
It's impossible for someone to make 'that' many wrong decisions from insanity/senility. If he were crazy, there'd be at least some logic we could apply, some pattern to it that we could determine...
I don't see that.

I sincerely think that Davis is doing alot of things right, but random coincidences/unfortunate events/etc. bite him in the ass.

There is no way a team with that powerful of a rushing game should not be contending for at LEAST a .500 record. Why? It has long been clear that the run game is imperative to a successful team, as even the Cardinals only made it through the playoffs because they found their run game at last. With the backfield group they have, and the talent elsewhere, they should be doing much better than this.
This isn't like the Lions, who were ran into the ground by clearly bad decisions and backwards structuring...

The fact that they aren't shows me that something outside of Al's control is getting in the way. (and I don't mean 'other teams', for all you smart-asses out there).

Hell, I'm even willing to say that Russell's just THAT bad. I'd believe it.
But I can't put it all on Al... At least not yet.

[jeff061]

people telling other people that they are or are not fans based on their own individual criteria of what defines a fan really pisses me the fuck off :rant:
Then you're not really a fan of being a fan.

[Jughead Spock]

I sincerely think that Davis is doing alot of things right, but random coincidences/unfortunate events/etc. bite him in the ass.

A lot of things right... such as?

And you tend to make your own luck. A pattern of random coincidences/unfortunate events/etc. is still enough to get most people fired.

[NiteMaestro]

Running back situation
Solid 'relatively' Oline
Nnamdi, risking a move from FS to CB is HUGE

just to name a few (at least that I can think of right now)

[Apathetic Lurker]

A lot of things right... such as?

And you tend to make your own luck. A pattern of random coincidences/unfortunate events/etc. is still enough to get most people fired.


Well, for one, he bypassed Crabs the malcontent and took someone who will play this year

[bhlloy]

Well, for one, he bypassed Crabs the malcontent and took someone who will play this year

... that he could have got 20 spots later. Just because the Crabtree situation isn't working out doesn't mean it wasn't a horrific pick.

[bhlloy]

DOLA - I should add in fairness that I don't hate the Seymour trade that much. Who knows what happens by 2011, and Seymour is still a very solid player. It's a young Raiders team, they could be half decent next season.

[Jughead Spock]

Were you guys big Matt Millen (as GM/president) fans too? :lol:


And yes, I admire Al for going out and getting more running backs when he was already stocked there. Obviously having four 1000-yard type backs does wonders for the record.

To be fair, I do think they'd be better off with a better QB, and can't really fault him for taking Russell. Hopefully he can pull his head out, but not holding my breath. Wouldn't be surprised to see Garcia pull out another few wins.

[Jughead Spock]

dola - yeah, I don't find this deal all that atrocious - IF they can get him signed and on the field. They desperately need some run-stopping help.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Wouldn't be surprised to see Garcia pull out another few wins.

I would, considering he was cut a couple of days ago.

:p

But seriously, was Tommy Kelly a waste of money? I never get to see Raiders games out here, it seemed like a lot of money for a guy without much track record.

[larrymcg421]

Thread title fail. As if Al Davis needs to be asleep to have draft picks stolen from him.

[Jughead Spock]

I would, considering he was cut a couple of days ago.

:p

But seriously, was Tommy Kelly a waste of money? I never get to see Raiders games out here, it seemed like a lot of money for a guy without much track record.


Oh wow. Hadn't been into the football news the last few days. Good luck, Jamarcus, all on you now. Until they bring Jeff George out of retirement. Still has a hell of an arm, Al. :lol:

[Lathum]

This isn't like the Lions, who were ran into the ground by clearly bad decisions and backwards structuring..

so the Raiders have made good decisions?

keep digging that hole

[Schmidty]

You were never really a fan then. I may not like what Davis has been doing with the team, but they are still my team. Doesn't stop me from having other teams I like and will root for as long as doesn't effect the Raiders though.

I agree.

I mean, I'm a fucking life-long Lions fan, yet I have stuck with them through thin an thin. Sure, I get unbelievably mad and frustrated, but I couldn't root for anyone else. No chance.

I guess I'm kind of pathetic in that way. I pay $250 or so every year just so I can watch them. Last year they didn't win 1 game (obviously), yet I watched every minute of every game. My wife thinks I'm crazy, and I guess I agree.

[CU Tiger]

I sincerely think that Davis is doing alot of things right, but random coincidences/unfortunate events/etc. bite him in the ass.

If you make that many mistakes in a row, perhaps football is not for you


As I said before, he has made mistakes, but when I look at this team on paper, when I look at the decisions he makes considering the time at which he made them...
It's impossible for someone to make 'that' many wrong decisions from insanity/senility. If he were crazy, there'd be at least some logic we could apply, some pattern to it that we could determine...

See I dont think insanity/senility means what you seem to think it means.

[DaddyTorgo]

I agree.

I mean, I'm a fucking life-long Lions fan, yet I have stuck with them through thin an thin. Sure, I get unbelievably mad and frustrated, but I couldn't root for anyone else. No chance.

I guess I'm kind of pathetic in that way. I pay $250 or so every year just so I can watch them. Last year they didn't win 1 game (obviously), yet I watched every minute of every game. My wife thinks I'm crazy, and I guess I agree.

eh. that's your definition of what it means to be a fan...but who's to say that your definition is the only valid one?

[Schmidty]

eh. that's your definition of what it means to be a fan...but who's to say that your definition is the only valid one?

I never definitively said what it is to be a fan. :confused:

I just said that I'm a loyal moron. I don't just get frustrated and quit on my team. If that was true in real life, I'd be divorced. ;)

[molson]

Not psyched about this trade as a pats fan - sure it's a "steal" in a technical sense, but who cares about 2011 - the pats super bowl window is NOW.

[BishopMVP]

Not psyched about this trade as a pats fan - sure it's a "steal" in a technical sense, but who cares about 2011 - the pats super bowl window is NOW.Their "Super Bowl window" has been 9 years and counting, and with the foresight they use I don't see why it can't be extended another 5-6 years. Keeping Seymour wouldn't have helped too much this upcoming season (he would be our 3rd best DL after Wilfork and Warren, and the backups are quite talented) and he was not going to be resigned for next year, so this trade is a slight loss for 2009, a wash in 2010, and a big gain from 2011-2015 or so.

[jeff061]

Not psyched about this trade as a pats fan - sure it's a "steal" in a technical sense, but who cares about 2011 - the pats super bowl window is NOW.

And they can still win one without him now, even if they are worse off this year. Thats the balancing act.

[fantom1979]

Were you guys big Matt Millen (as GM/president) fans too? :lol:


Matt Millen made several great picks (Mike Williams, Charles Rodgers, and the rest of the draft picks from 2002 to 2006), but it was just bad luck that bit him in the ass. ;)

[Glengoyne]

You were never really a fan then. I may not like what Davis has been doing with the team, but they are still my team. Doesn't stop me from having other teams I like and will root for as long as doesn't effect the Raiders though.

No.

Really I was a Raider fan. My Only team. I nearly came to blows with someone who told me this once before. It was sort of a wake up call to let me know that if this discussion brought me to the edge of decking someone, that I I'd probably had a bit too much to drink that night.

To be fair, it wasn't his declaration that I "wasn't a really a Raider fan" that set me off. I was able to blow that off completely. It was when he defended Davis' handling of the Marcus Allen affair. More specifically, when he declared that Allen was the one at fault, and a "traitor".

I haven't turned my back on the Raiders. I've turned my back on Al Davis.

[Apathetic Lurker]

... that he could have got 20 spots later. Just because the Crabtree situation isn't working out doesn't mean it wasn't a horrific pick.


Thats your opinion where he might have gone. I personally dont think he would have lasted that long. Who knows, it might end up being a terrific, not horrific pick. Only time will tell....

[Galaxy]

I've heard that Richard hasn't reported to the Raiders yet. Is this true?

[JediKooter]

This just makes me laugh. You can almost hear the sucking sound in Oakland as that franchise gets closer and closer to a singularity. A true black hole indeed...

[JPhillips]

I've heard that Richard hasn't reported to the Raiders yet. Is this true?

I've wondered what his reaction is to the trade. I can't imagine he's happy going from Super Bowl contender to Al Davis' Vanity Fair.

[Matthean]

Thats your opinion where he might have gone. I personally dont think he would have lasted that long. Who knows, it might end up being a terrific, not horrific pick. Only time will tell....

It was the opinion of A LOT of NFL people. It's why it makes the pick that more head shaking. It's not like he was widely deemed to be picked within even 5 picks later, so it's "kind of odd, but it's Al."

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[NiteMaestro]

dola - yeah, I don't find this deal all that atrocious - IF they can get him signed and on the field. They desperately need some run-stopping help.

Agreed.
This should work nicely for them.

so the Raiders have made good decisions?

keep digging that hole

Good? Maybe not.
Wise? Only time will tell.
Educated? Yes

In this sport, all we have to go on is speculation and some knowledge. Not all of Al's decisions were good, and only history will decide how wise they were. But they were definitely educated.

I agree.

I mean, I'm a fucking life-long Lions fan, yet I have stuck with them through thin an thin. Sure, I get unbelievably mad and frustrated, but I couldn't root for anyone else. No chance.

I guess I'm kind of pathetic in that way. I pay $250 or so every year just so I can watch them. Last year they didn't win 1 game (obviously), yet I watched every minute of every game. My wife thinks I'm crazy, and I guess I agree.

LOL, you are a bit crazy... but remember, the word 'fan' came from the term 'fanatic' (at least if I remember correctly).

Their "Super Bowl window" has been 9 years and counting, and with the foresight they use I don't see why it can't be extended another 5-6 years. Keeping Seymour wouldn't have helped too much this upcoming season (he would be our 3rd best DL after Wilfork and Warren, and the backups are quite talented) and he was not going to be resigned for next year, so this trade is a slight loss for 2009, a wash in 2010, and a big gain from 2011-2015 or so.

Iunno...
With Brady/Cassel, there was a situation awfully similar to Bledsoe/Brady... Belichik didn't pull the trigger this time, and one has to wonder if he's making a mistake...
Why?
Well, reading this made me think twice...
http://www.google.com/books?id=n15QdKNfZoMC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA131#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Thats your opinion where he might have gone. I personally dont think he would have lasted that long. Who knows, it might end up being a terrific, not horrific pick. Only time will tell....

Agreed.
Remember, Al is a guy who doesn't care what pick he has. If a guy he likes is still there. He's taking him. He's not one to risk trading down and losing him.

No.

Really I was a Raider fan. My Only team. I nearly came to blows with someone who told me this once before. It was sort of a wake up call to let me know that if this discussion brought me to the edge of decking someone, that I I'd probably had a bit too much to drink that night.

To be fair, it wasn't his declaration that I "wasn't a really a Raider fan" that set me off. I was able to blow that off completely. It was when he defended Davis' handling of the Marcus Allen affair. More specifically, when he declared that Allen was the one at fault, and a "traitor".

I haven't turned my back on the Raiders. I've turned my back on Al Davis.

Hm... While I don't necessarily agree, I understand, and respect that.

[NiteMaestro]

Were you guys big Matt Millen (as GM/president) fans too? :lol:


And yes, I admire Al for going out and getting more running backs when he was already stocked there. Obviously having four 1000-yard type backs does wonders for the record.

To be fair, I do think they'd be better off with a better QB, and can't really fault him for taking Russell. Hopefully he can pull his head out, but not holding my breath. Wouldn't be surprised to see Garcia pull out another few wins.


Matt Millen made several great picks (Mike Williams, Charles Rodgers, and the rest of the draft picks from 2002 to 2006), but it was just bad luck that bit him in the ass. ;)

If you're just messing with me, then 'ha ha'...
If not...
Let's compare, shall we?
Let's also remember Millen had no management experience prior to this too...
But I digress. Millen 02-06
To Davis 02-06

[first, I want to establish that for me, there is a difference between a bust and a disappointment a bust does not produce, and doesn't stay in the league long (past his first contract). A disappointment still produces, generally at starting level, but is not the player he was 'supposed' to be. I.E. Vick is not a bust. He produced. Now if people thought he'd be a Manning kind of QB, then he'd be a disappointment. But not a bust. Make sense?)

First round pick(s)
2002... Severe disappointment. Almost bust, but was 'relatively' productive. Many believe it was due to lack of mobility behind a porous O-Line.
2003... Bust. Many already warned about his work ethic and maturity. Giving him money didn't help. Started bright, and injuries aren't predictable, but how you respond and recover to them are...
2004... Roy Williams... Ok. Well done. But no QB really, so. meh... Could be worse though, so I give 'em credit.
2004... Kevin Jones... Another solid pick. Injury prone, which is unfortunate/unforeseen, so I'll say this year they did alright.
2005... Bust... Mike Williams... Makes no sense. You already have 2 1st round receivers... Why? After he sat an entire year too (and had a lackluster combine to boot...)
2006... Ernie Sims... Finally. A wise pick. We'll see how he pans out, but he'll be a solid starter for some time IMO.

So of six picks, 2 busts, one severe disappointment, and a 'bad luck' case with Jones's injury. .125+0+1+.25+0+.5
1.875/6 we could say? 31%(ish)

Later picks? No one I've heard much about from my memory...
I'll assume mediocre at best.


Al Davis...
2002... Harris and Buchanon... Not bad, but still not 'pleased'
2003... Asomugha = Jackpot, especially considering he was moved from Safety to Corner. A VERY risky move. Brayton = Disappointment. Did okay to start, but instead of getting better, got kinda worse... Still plays though. Add in Fargas later on... Pretty good overall IMO.
2004... Galley = Disappointment. Busted as a Tackle, but looks better at Guard, so still serviceable... Besides that, he was seen as a great prospect by practically EVERYONE at the time.
2005... Washington = Not bad. Didn't fit though, so Disappointment. Add in Morrison though as a later gem, and Carr from free agency... Eh. Mediocre.
2006... Huff = Solid choice, and traded for picks/players? Can't complain.

So Raiders had... .5+.5+1+.25+.25+.25+.25+.25+.25+.5 (.5 = 'okay', .25 = disappointment or later pick bloom)
4/10? 40%
Not to mention, no real 'busts' either.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Iunno...
With Brady/Cassel, there was a situation awfully similar to Bledsoe/Brady... Belichik didn't pull the trigger this time, and one has to wonder if he's making a mistake...
Why?
Well, reading this made me think twice...
The Blueprint: How the New England ... - Google Books (http://www.google.com/books?id=n15QdKNfZoMC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA131#v=onepage&q=&f=false)


Bledsoe != Brady.

Watching Bledsoe in 98, 99, and 00 was not easy to do. He was a low completion percentage, interception throwing deep ball passer. The opposite of Brady, and by extension the opposite of how Belichick wants his QBs to operate. Just because they play the same position doesn't mean you can switch the names around and say its the same thing. I really mean little offense by this, but have to ask based on your posting history in this thread: do you watch much football?

[Subby]

NOT JUST CEREBRAL BUT VERY CEREBRAL

[jeff061]

With Brady/Cassel, there was a situation awfully similar to Bledsoe/Brady... Belichik didn't pull the trigger this time, and one has to wonder if he's making a mistake...

lol.

Not exactly.

[NiteMaestro]

Bledsoe != Brady.

Watching Bledsoe in 98, 99, and 00 was not easy to do. He was a low completion percentage, interception throwing deep ball passer. The opposite of Brady, and by extension the opposite of how Belichick wants his QBs to operate. Just because they play the same position doesn't mean you can switch the names around and say its the same thing. I really mean little offense by this, but have to ask based on your posting history in this thread: do you watch much football?

I was saying that simply based on what I read.
The attitudes that Belichick is taking/leaning towards now makes me wonder if it's similar to the one that the previous guys did in New England (in the locker room at least.)
That was all.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

What attitudes are you referring to?

[BishopMVP]

Iunno...
With Brady/Cassel, there was a situation awfully similar to Bledsoe/Brady... Belichik didn't pull the trigger this time, and one has to wonder if he's making a mistake...
Why?
Well, reading this made me think twice...
The Blueprint: How the New England ... - Google Books (http://www.google.com/books?id=n15QdKNfZoMC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA131#v=onepage&q=&f=false)How much you want to wager on Brady vs. Cassell over the next 5 years, in terms of wins, passing yards, td's, games started, whatever. Let me know. I mean, Tom Brady isn't in danger of losing his job to Tyler Thigpen.

[Lathum]

Good? Maybe not.
Wise? Only time will tell.
Educated? Yes

In this sport, all we have to go on is speculation and some knowledge. Not all of Al's decisions were good, and only history will decide how wise they were. But they were definitely educated.

.

This has to be a joke account.

How can you say time will tell?

I think time has already told us Al has lost it.

And how can you say educated picks? If by educated you mean who has the fastest 40 time or the strongest arm then ok, I see your point. I mean, why should decision making, fitness, are ability to learn the playbook matter, just chuck it up and let that speedy receiver who can't catch the ball run under it.

[Lathum]

Nite, how many wins do you think the Raiders get this year?

[Honolulu_Blue]

If you're just messing with me, then 'ha ha'...
If not...
Let's compare, shall we?
Let's also remember Millen had no management experience prior to this too...
But I digress. Millen 02-06
To Davis 02-06

[first, I want to establish that for me, there is a difference between a bust and a disappointment a bust does not produce, and doesn't stay in the league long (past his first contract). A disappointment still produces, generally at starting level, but is not the player he was 'supposed' to be. I.E. Vick is not a bust. He produced. Now if people thought he'd be a Manning kind of QB, then he'd be a disappointment. But not a bust. Make sense?)

First round pick(s)
2002... Severe disappointment. Almost bust, but was 'relatively' productive. Many believe it was due to lack of mobility behind a porous O-Line.
2003... Bust. Many already warned about his work ethic and maturity. Giving him money didn't help. Started bright, and injuries aren't predictable, but how you respond and recover to them are...
2004... Roy Williams... Ok. Well done. But no QB really, so. meh... Could be worse though, so I give 'em credit.
2004... Kevin Jones... Another solid pick. Injury prone, which is unfortunate/unforeseen, so I'll say this year they did alright.
2005... Bust... Mike Williams... Makes no sense. You already have 2 1st round receivers... Why? After he sat an entire year too (and had a lackluster combine to boot...)
2006... Ernie Sims... Finally. A wise pick. We'll see how he pans out, but he'll be a solid starter for some time IMO.

So of six picks, 2 busts, one severe disappointment, and a 'bad luck' case with Jones's injury. .125+0+1+.25+0+.5
1.875/6 we could say? 31%(ish)

Later picks? No one I've heard much about from my memory...
I'll assume mediocre at best.

I'm having a hard time following all of this and I have no idea what 31%(ish) means. Does that mean Millen hit on 31% of his first round picks? Uh...

Maybe he got "unlucky" with Kevin Jones' injury problems. And, sure, Roy Williams is a pretty servicable WR. But, remember, there is only ONE player from the 2002 - 2006 drafts still left on the team (Ernie Sims). ONE. There are calculations conceivable that can make Millen's performane as a GM anything but a complete and utter failure.

Even if Roy Williams is a good player, the fact that he is a first round pick that is no longer on the Lions means that he really wasn't a good pick for the Lions (the specific team that drafted him). The draft is about finding good players and building a team with them. Millen may have gotten lucky a few teams in the former (a very few times based on the number of players he drafted that are even still playing in the NFL), but completely failed at the latter.

[NiteMaestro]

This has to be a joke account.

How can you say time will tell?

I think time has already told us Al has lost it.

And how can you say educated picks? If by educated you mean who has the fastest 40 time or the strongest arm then ok, I see your point. I mean, why should decision making, fitness, are ability to learn the playbook matter, just chuck it up and let that speedy receiver who can't catch the ball run under it.

You forget, these/we are kids!
The body does not fully develop until 23(ish)
and the brain does not fully develop until 25-27...
So they don't have worth ethic. Is that because of school? Their family influence? Their real personality?

Even when you 'know' something, it's still a gamble. So yes. These are all just educated guesses. Some moreso than others.

[Autumn]

This thread is turning classic. Who knew Al had such love out there.

[NiteMaestro]

I'm having a hard time following all of this and I have no idea what 31%(ish) means. Does that mean Millen hit on 31% of his first round picks? Uh...

Maybe he got "unlucky" with Kevin Jones' injury problems. And, sure, Roy Williams is a pretty servicable WR. But, remember, there is only ONE player from the 2002 - 2006 drafts still left on the team (Ernie Sims). ONE. There are calculations conceivable that can make Millen's performane as a GM anything but a complete and utter failure.

Even if Roy Williams is a good player, the fact that he is a first round pick that is no longer on the Lions means that he really wasn't a good pick for the Lions (the specific team that drafted him). The draft is about finding good players and building a team with them. Millen may have gotten lucky a few teams in the former (a very few times based on the number of players he drafted that are even still playing in the NFL), but completely failed at the latter.

31% according to the scale I used. Which is rather lax.
I didn't want to bash Millen too bad, but wanted to make a point that while Millen was completely and totally inept, Davis has had successes and faliures in the draft, but many more of the former than Millen.

[Atocep]

I just want to be able to say I posted in a thread where someone defended Al Davis.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I didn't want to bash Millen too bad, but wanted to make a point that while Millen was completely and totally inept, Davis has had successes and faliures in the draft, but many more of the former than Millen.

Well, that bar is pretty low. Saying, "he's a better GM than Mat Millen", is sort of like saying "well, he's not as evil as Hitler!"

It's a pretty meaningless statement.

[jeff061]

I just want to be able to say I posted in a thread where someone defended Al Davis. And compared Brady at his peak to Bledsoe at the end.

I remember at the time I was ok with Bledsoe getting back in as the starter and was not sold at all on Brady. I was in a very small minority. No one was a big fan of the foot shuffling inaccurate INT machine.

[Subby]

This thread is cerebral. VERY CEREBRAL.

[Jughead Spock]

This is such a troll account. Any further posts on my part are just poking it with a stick.

You forget, these/we are kids!
The body does not fully develop until 23(ish)
and the brain does not fully develop until 25-27...

Suuuuuuupah-GEEeeenius.

[BishopMVP]

And compared Brady at his peak to Bledsoe at the end.

I remember at the time I was ok with Bledsoe getting back in as the starter and was not sold at all on Brady. I was in a very small minority. No one was a big fan of the foot shuffling inaccurate INT machine.Let's not go overboard with the Bledsoe hate. He was still a very competent, if not pro-bowl caliber quarterback behind a good offensive line. He threw 13 picks total the previous season.

[Kodos]

Were you actually suggesting that Brady should have been traded instead of Cassel?

[jeff061]

Let's not go overboard with the Bledsoe hate. He was still a very competent, if not pro-bowl caliber quarterback behind a good offensive line. He threw 13 picks total the previous season.


That's what my opinion was, and Brady was just some idiot kid (he didn't look so bright in front of the cameras early on). Friends, family, papers and radio all seemed to disagree with me.

[Lathum]

The body does not fully develop until 23(ish)



.

at what age do the sexual nerves develop?

[jeff061]

I find that incredibly offensive Lathum. Potty mouth.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Let's not go overboard with the Bledsoe hate. He was still a very competent, if not pro-bowl caliber quarterback behind a good offensive line. He threw 13 picks total the previous season.

Let's not go underboard with it either. The three years before Brady took over he threw 56 touchdowns to 48 picks with 56% completion. I was ready for a different quarterback, though certainly didn't expect Brady to become what he has (anyone who says they did is lying).

[Autumn]

I think we all knew what Brady would become when we gazed at those dreamy eyes.

Al Davis however, one can only guess what he is.

[jeff061]

I'm telling you, the first time I gazed into his eyes at a post game press conference I thought he was borderline mentally challenged.

[BishopMVP]

Let's not go underboard with it either. The three years before Brady took over he threw 56 touchdowns to 48 picks with 56% completion. I was ready for a different quarterback, though certainly didn't expect Brady to become what he has (anyone who says they did is lying).I thought Bledsoe needed to be traded simply because we clearly didn't have the offensive line he needed, but I always thought the vitriol directed at such a classy player was over the top and offensive. He was as pure a dropback passer as you could get, and its not his fault the Patriots had failed for 3+ years to build a team around his strengths and weaknesses. (Of course, I was pushing for the more mobile backup instead of Brady, so I wasn't right about everything.)

[DaddyTorgo]

How much you want to wager on Brady vs. Cassell over the next 5 years, in terms of wins, passing yards, td's, games started, whatever. Let me know. I mean, Tom Brady isn't in danger of losing his job to Tyler Thigpen.

Tom Brady = Football Jesus

[DaddyTorgo]

no hate for bledsoe - he took them to a SB that they should have won (if not for DESMOND MOTHAFUCKING HOWARD BITCHES!! - yet another Michigan player) and was a pure, quality dropback passer.

[Logan]

Am I really the only one who's had him on ignore this whole time?

[SirFozzie]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch..

Two things:

One, the Raiders have restructured a couple contracts to free up contact space for Richard Seymour, but no signs of him in Oak.

There are conflicting reports on why Seymour isn't showing up yet.. the one thing they both can agree on is that Seymour wants some $$$, they differ on who he wants it from.. one report is that Seymour is demanding money from the Patriots to not sabotage the trade.. the other side says that Seymour wants a long term extension with the Raiders before he reports.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Pats can just do the "five day letter" thing, which for Seymour is the nuclear option. You can't see free agency in a year if you don't report.

Seymour could eventually get "five-day letter" | ProFootballTalk.com (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/09/07/seymour-could-eventually-get-five-day-letter/)

Obviously, no one wants to see that happen, but its not like Seymour has all the leverage here.

[gstelmack]

I loved Bledsoe, but I also think it was time for him to move on as he was on the downswing of his career. I don't see how there can be much vitriol for a player who publically at least did not undercut his backup nor complain loudly, and who treated the fans with a ton of respect when he left. I have a lot of respect for him and will always remember the good times he brought to New England.

One of my favorite football watching moments was watching him and Marino duke it out early in his career, where the two of them combined for around 900 yards through the air.

Looked it up on NFL.com: 9/4/94, Bledsoe was 32-51, 421 yards, 4 TD, 2 INT. Marino was 23-42, 473 yards, 5 TD, 1 INT. Miami won 39-35. Was a great game to watch.

[jeff061]

Pats can just do the "five day letter" thing, which for Seymour is the nuclear option. You can't see free agency in a year if you don't report.

Seymour could eventually get "five-day letter" | ProFootballTalk.com (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/09/07/seymour-could-eventually-get-five-day-letter/)

Obviously, no one wants to see that happen, but its not like Seymour has all the leverage here.

The Pats will send it. I wonder if they will actually enforce it. Having a beast ride the pine. Can't set that precedent, only reason they wouldn't let him play.

[Big Fo]

Seymour could jump out of a tree and try to break his leg so he couldn't pass Oakland's physical, kind of like what I've read about people trying to get out of going to Vietnam back in the day.

That might hurt his next contract though.

[NiteMaestro]

The only reason I compared Brady/Cassel to Bledsoe/Brady is because of the similarities. Very good QB that got injured, backup steps in and does surprisingly well.

That's it.
Remember, Brady isn't young anymore, and is seen as vulnerable after is knee and 'shoulder issues'. I was just saying it as a point of curious interest. Damn.
I'm not even bashing the Patriots for once, take this moral victory and run with it Bradyiacs.

[MIJB#19]

Would it be fair to say that you think the Raiders are looking great in the preseason?That's quote of the day material.
Even when it's two days old.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

The Pats will send it. I wonder if they will actually enforce it. Having a beast ride the pine. Can't set that precedent, only reason they wouldn't let him play.

What's more ridiculous, though: forcing Seymour to sit out the season, or having him back in uniform after trading him?

I really can't see either happening. Seymour will realize he's got to go to Oakland. Maybe he convinces Al to promise not to franchise, though I doubt he could pull that off.

[Pumpy Tudors]

A few things to know about NiteMaestro:

1) Uses a quote in his signature that was directly mocking him
2) Cerebral enough to defend Al Davis as anything less than a lunatic
3) Argues in defense of a history that he openly does not know or understand
4) Thinks the Raiders will hit .500 this year because they allegedly have a running game and admittedly have a bad quarterback

Any questions?

Yes. WHY ARE YOU HITTING YOURSELF?

[NiteMaestro]

Yes. WHY ARE YOU HITTING YOURSELF?

Though most people find forums as a place to endlessly masturbate to their own inflated sense of self worth, I'd rather debate openly and intelligently, knowing full well I may be wrong.
Why?
Because only by admitting our own fallibility's and humanity can we hope to transcend it.


...
Besides...
It's a good quote ;)

[JediKooter]

I'd be surprised if the Raiders went 8-8 this year.

Chargers - L
Chiefs - Coiuld go either way
Broncos - L
Texans - L
Giants - L
Eagles - L
Jets - L
Chargers - L
Chiefs - Could go either way
Bengals - L
Cowboys - L
Steelers - L
Redskins - L
Broncos - L
Browns - W
Ravens - L

I say 4-12 maybe 5-11 this year tops for the Raiders with current rosters and before any major injuries to the Radiers and any of their opponents.

[Autumn]

Not to mention before Al Davis cuts one of their only good players and signs someone from the Falcons practice squad to a $20 million contract.

[Lathum]

I'd rather debate openly and intelligently, knowing full well I may be wrong.



Still waiting for the intelligent debate.

[SirFozzie]

Latest tweet from ESPN's Adam Schefter...

At this time, Seymour's options are to report to Oakland or to sit out. Sounds like New England is out of this, with Oak's 2011 1st rd pick

[JediKooter]

Not to mention before Al Davis cuts one of their only good players and signs someone from the Falcons practice squad to a $20 million contract.

Haha!! The season is still young.

[Cap Ologist]

To prove Al Davis is crazy, you don't need to look at his drafts, his free agent signings, or his coaching hire. All you need to know is that he used a freaking overhead projector in a press conference when he fired a coach. Does anybody in Oakland not know how to use a scanner, power point, etc?

[NiteMaestro]

I'd be surprised if the Raiders went 8-8 this year.

Chargers - L
Chiefs - Coiuld go either way
Broncos - L
Texans - L
Giants - L
Eagles - L
Jets - L
Chargers - L
Chiefs - Could go either way
Bengals - L
Cowboys - L
Steelers - L
Redskins - L
Broncos - L
Browns - W
Ravens - L

I say 4-12 maybe 5-11 this year tops for the Raiders with current rosters and before any major injuries to the Radiers and any of their opponents.

Admittedly, I forgot about their schedule...
So prolly not 8-8...
I see :
L,W,W,L,L,L,L,L,L,L,W,L,L,W,W,W
(Cowboys lose by a fluke, and Ravens don't care by that point (already in playoffs))

[NiteMaestro]

To prove Al Davis is crazy, you don't need to look at his drafts, his free agent signings, or his coaching hire. All you need to know is that he used a freaking overhead projector in a press conference when he fired a coach. Does anybody in Oakland not know how to use a scanner, power point, etc?

Lol

Personally though, I like overheads.
Good memories :p

[Pumpy Tudors]

Admittedly, I forgot about their schedule...
So prolly not 8-8...
Yeah, um, in order to win games, they actually have to play games. And those games usually come against other teams.

Just saying.

[stevew]

This is the type of trade the Steelers never make. Instead of holding onto a cunty bitch like Faneca they keep him for a comp pick. And he plays like crap. And the 3rd round comp pick is actually a fifth rounder cause nobody in the front office reads the rules on pick allocation.

[stevew]

I meant trade obviously

[DeToxRox]

Yeah, um, in order to win games, they actually have to play games. And those games usually come against other teams.

Just saying.

Colin White is a New Orleans Voodoo fan.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Colin White is a New Orleans Voodoo fan.
guess i'm done here

[claphamsa]

Am I really the only one who's had him on ignore this whole time?
I also try to ignore tom Brady, but hes just oo lame to keep off the TV

[Danny]

No.

Really I was a Raider fan. My Only team. I nearly came to blows with someone who told me this once before. It was sort of a wake up call to let me know that if this discussion brought me to the edge of decking someone, that I I'd probably had a bit too much to drink that night.

To be fair, it wasn't his declaration that I "wasn't a really a Raider fan" that set me off. I was able to blow that off completely. It was when he defended Davis' handling of the Marcus Allen affair. More specifically, when he declared that Allen was the one at fault, and a "traitor".

I haven't turned my back on the Raiders. I've turned my back on Al Davis.

My post was just my opinion, so you shouldn't worry about it. Obviously I didn't know the specifics of your situation, but in general most fans who stop rooting for a team were probably not real fans anyway. Regarding the Allen situation, Davis probably was at fault, but I imagine both probably had some blame. Davis is stubborn to a fault, he supports you like no other if you're on his good side, but if not his bad side then you see something like that.

[Danny]

I'd be surprised if the Raiders went 8-8 this year.

Chargers - L
Chiefs - Coiuld go either way
Broncos - L
Texans - L
Giants - L
Eagles - L
Jets - L
Chargers - L
Chiefs - Could go either way
Bengals - L
Cowboys - L
Steelers - L
Redskins - L
Broncos - L
Browns - W
Ravens - L

I say 4-12 maybe 5-11 this year tops for the Raiders with current rosters and before any major injuries to the Radiers and any of their opponents.

You are massively overrating the Broncos, The Raiders not being very good could easily sweep them this year. They could sweep the Chiefs too. Overall, I think they could win 3/4 of those games. The rest if the schedule, probably 4 or 5 maximum.

[JediKooter]

Admittedly, I forgot about their schedule...
So prolly not 8-8...
I see :
L,W,W,L,L,L,L,L,L,L,W,L,L,W,W,W
(Cowboys lose by a fluke, and Ravens don't care by that point (already in playoffs))

The Chiefs and Broncos games can go either way. Broncos having a slightly better defense and better offense. Chiefs are hard to figure out, they will probably beat the Chargers at least once this year just because they are the Chiefs and just because it's the Chargers, rosters having nothing to do with it, it's a league rule.

The Cowboys are a funny team, but, baring a total offensive collapse, I can't see them losing to the Raiders. The Ravens game, I don't know, Flaco would have to be hurt in my opinion and the Ravens defense would have to be M.I.A. for them to lose that game.

But, we will see, lots of things can change between Monday nights loss to the Chargers and the end of the season. :)

[Lathum]

You are massively overrating the Broncos, The Raiders not being very good could easily sweep them this year. They could sweep the Chiefs too. Overall, I think they could win 3/4 of those games. The rest if the schedule, probably 4 or 5 maximum.

so you are giving the Raiders 7-9 wins?

Care to take action on that?

[JediKooter]

You are massively overrating the Broncos, The Raiders not being very good could easily sweep them this year. They could sweep the Chiefs too. Overall, I think they could win 3/4 of those games. The rest if the schedule, probably 4 or 5 maximum.

That's very possible, but, I'm giving the edge to Denver due to their head coach's former team and the guy who was the head coach in New England and a slightly better offense (o-line mostly) and a slightly better defense.

Let's say they split the Chiefs and Broncos, they beat the Browns. Other than the Jets, Bengals and Texans, I can't see the rest of the schedule looking good for them.

Anything is possible for sure though.

[Danny]

so you are giving the Raiders 7-9 wins?

Care to take action on that?

Not exactly, I said 3 out of 4 of Den/KC, not 3 or 4, so basically I said 7 or 8 wins maximum. which is different from the most likely scenario which is probably 6 wins.

[Lathum]

Not exactly, I said 3 out of 4 of Den/KC, not 3 or 4, so basically I said 7 or 8 wins maximum. which is different from the most likely scenario which is probably 6 wins.

so you'll take 6 wins or better?

I'll still take action on that

[NiteMaestro]

so you'll take 6 wins or better?

I'll still take action on that

I wouldn't feel right taking your money... :p

[jbergey22]

The Raiders circus continues. It amazes me they still have such a large fanbase. The Raiders have to be the worst run organization in sports. Was it that hard for them to get a deal done before the trade was finalized? And seriously you have no chance at the playoffs this year or next, save the damn first round pick. Or better yet lets overpay for a past his prime defensive lineman who is supposedly going to shut down the run all by himself.

You see well run organizations(Steelers, Patriots, and Colts) and then you see this. Its going to take more than a salary cap to keep the Raiders competitive.

[Julio Riddols]

If I were any other teams GM, I'd call the Raiders up and see if they were interested in any of my aging guys headed into their contract year while there are still good picks left to steal.

[Autumn]

If I were any other GM I'd callt he Raiders up about anything. There's a 100% chance that you'd come away from the phone call having fleeced them in some way.

[Cap Ologist]

I just traded an old overhead projector I found in a closet at my school for the Raider's 2012 1st round pick. Unfortunately, the overhead projector is refusing to report and keeps burning out it's light bulb so it can't pass it's physical.

[JAG]

I just traded an old overhead projector I found in a closet at my school for the Raider's 2012 1st round pick. Unfortunately, the overhead projector is refusing to report and keeps burning out it's light bulb so it can't pass it's physical.

See if you can throw in some fluorescent bulbs.

[Atocep]

I just traded an old overhead projector I found in a closet at my school for the Raider's 2012 1st round pick. Unfortunately, the overhead projector is refusing to report and keeps burning out it's light bulb so it can't pass it's physical.

I'll give you a .5 credit here but I'll need to see a larger body of work before I assign you an actual percentage.

[Lathum]

I just traded an old overhead projector I found in a closet at my school for the Raider's 2012 1st round pick. Unfortunately, the overhead projector is refusing to report and keeps burning out it's light bulb so it can't pass it's physical.

that bulb burning out is just bad luck.

The past 50 years that projector has worked great.

[stevew]

I don't believe that "failure to report for a physical" doesn't void a trade. But "failing a physical" may. Not that I'm sad to see the Faiders get ripped off and humiliated simultaneously.

[jeff061]

I read failing to report does void a trade, but gives the Pats the often to bench him for the year and have it not count against his contract. So he'd be in the same situation next year. Just older and without a year of pay.

[JediKooter]

I think this version of the Raiders is better than the real one...

[stevew]

People with more credibility than Florio are reporting this is the Raiders problem. Most likely the morons in their front office didn't attach any stipulations to the deal.

I don't even think they can recoup bonus money since it was option/roster type.

More important than anything is that NE has recycled their front 7 now and not lost very much.

[Munkie]

Sorry for the necro-dredging of the post, however I am new to the forums, and this came up in a search for an NFL roster.

While the Raiders have struggled on offense, fast forward approx. 4 weeks and Seymour has been far from a bust. He is tied for 7th in the league for sacks, and has been a force to contend with.

Where he lands after seasons end is another question, however right now he has been a strong contributor to the Raiders 10th ranked defense.

Just some post start of the season perspective.

Munkie!

[TroyF]

Sorry for the necro-dredging of the post, however I am new to the forums, and this came up in a search for an NFL roster.

While the Raiders have struggled on offense, fast forward approx. 4 weeks and Seymour has been far from a bust. He is tied for 7th in the league for sacks, and has been a force to contend with.

Where he lands after seasons end is another question, however right now he has been a strong contributor to the Raiders 10th ranked defense.

Just some post start of the season perspective.

Munkie!

What statistics are you looking at?

The Raiders are tied for 15th in scoring defense. They are 14th in passing yards per game allowed and 28th in rush defense allowed for an overall 23rd in yards allowed. They are 24th in first downs given up and 15th in third downs against.

I'm struggling to find where the 10th based D is.

The trade is bad now and will be bad two years from now. If anyone should have given up a first round pick for him, it should have been a contending team looking for that one guy who could lift them over the edge. The Raiders need a QB, offensive line, WR, ownership, DL, and LB core. At least the kicking and DB's are ok, right?

[RainMaker]

Sorry for the necro-dredging of the post, however I am new to the forums, and this came up in a search for an NFL roster.

While the Raiders have struggled on offense, fast forward approx. 4 weeks and Seymour has been far from a bust. He is tied for 7th in the league for sacks, and has been a force to contend with.

Where he lands after seasons end is another question, however right now he has been a strong contributor to the Raiders 10th ranked defense.

Just some post start of the season perspective.

Munkie!
The trade is bad because the Raiders are rebuilding and weren't going to win anything with or without Seymour. The first round pick has much more value than an aging lineman who will be washed up by the time the Raiders are ready to compete.

[Danny]

Yes, a contending team trading that 1st to help make deep playoff/superbowl run would have been a fine trade. But for the Raiders, terrible trade.

[bhlloy]

I think if the organization/Davis was smart enough to bench Russell and keep a veteran around this could still be a playoff team on the strength of the defense. Not convinced about anyone else in the West.

Jeff Garcia is available I think. Wonder if he will come back :)