Developing a Sim

[SunDancer]

How much does it cost to develop a sim like OOTP5 or FOF games? How much time does it take for one to develop one? What type of programs does a programmer need to know to develop these kind of games? When designing a game "plan", what should it cover?

[TLK]

Not to threadjack, because I'm sure you'll get some good answers here, but whatever happend to the NASCAR sim that somebody was working on here? It's been a while since we talked about it here and wondered if there was any progress.....

TLK

[Fido]

Originally posted by SunDancer
How much does it cost to develop a sim like OOTP5 or FOF games?

$0.00 if you do it yourself

Originally posted by SunDancer
How much time does it take for one to develop one?

Depends on how good you wnat it to be and what kind of programming skills you have. You coudl make one in an afternoon, but it would suck.

Originally posted by SunDancer
What type of programs does a programmer need to know to develop these kind of games?

Depends on what language you want ot write it in and what platforms you want to write it for, and how much $$ you want in invest in development tools. My C++ development is done with the following tools:

MS Visual Studio 6.0
Numega BoundsChecker
Rational Quantify
Rational Purify
Whole Tomato Visual Assist

Is that the best combination? For me it is, but maybe not for you. You're also looking at 2-3 grand for that set of tools.

Originally posted by SunDancer
When designing a game "plan", what should it cover?
Everything. Not kidding here. 90% of youe development time will be spent in the deign phase. Start simple then expand on it until you have described everything that the program will do, as well as what it won't do, and how it will do it. Its much easier to change a Word document than to hack-out and rewrite hundreds of lines of code.

[FBPro]

Well, you need to decide on a programming language and then the plan should be as detailed as it possibly can. No idea about the costs, I would say the biggest expense would be "time".

[Bonegavel]

FIDO wasn't kidding when he talked about design. You should create a design doc that covers everything you want in the game. The beauty of a design doc is that, if done properly, the code practically writes itself.

All professional projects will have a design doc, and it is usually biblical in its proportions. I am writing a Crossword Puzzle Creator (60% complete) without one and I can tell you that I wish I had. I may even start from scratch and write a design doc and reuse code where I can.

I have written one for an e-commerce web site and it was worth its weight in gold.

There are many benefits to a complete design doc than just code creation. For one, you can write a manual based upon the doc. You can easily create tests for debugging. The design doc also brings to light far more problems/options than you would ever discover from simply sitting down and writing code.

IMHO, many independent projects wither on the vine due to a lack of documentation. As projects grow in scope, a lack of documentation will soon have you frustrated and ready to give up. Writing the doc isn't easy, but it is worth it.

[the_meanstrosity]

BoneGavel,

Do you have any old design docs or even templates that you'd be willing to share? I'd love to see a good sample. I'm a fairly new developer and mainly code from scratch. But I'd love to see some good templates. Thanks in advance!

[Bonegavel]

I'll see what I can do. I no longer have an electronic copy, but may be able to get one and i can delete anything proprietary and such.

These things are guarded like fort knox due to the amount of time and effort put in to create them. Not to mention the content itself.

[SunDancer]

Could you give an brief example of design doc?

[Fido]

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Bay/2535/design_doc.html is a good read on Design Docs

[dacman]

brief design document....there's an oxymoron for ya.

[sabotai]

From personal experience, a design doc is very important. I have well over 100 pages of "stuff" written out on just about everything. And even then, my design still isn't 100% complete. I usually write out a broad, general "flow chart" like thing, sit down and code, and figure out the details as I do it.

Now that's me. Everyone does not code the same way, everyone does not think the same way, everyone does not do things the same way. Some people like to have _everything_ written out before hand, other's don't. It's a matter of personal prefence. But the most important thing to remember is that everyone does start out with some form of design doc.

Sounds like you may be starting out with programming. You really should start off small. Don't jump in head first cause you will drown.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by sabotai
From personal experience, a design doc is very important. I have well over 100 pages of "stuff" written out on just about everything. And even then, my design still isn't 100% complete. I usually write out a broad, general "flow chart" like thing, sit down and code, and figure out the details as I do it.


All that and he has never gotten past "Hello World."

[sabotai]

"All that and he has never gotten past "Hello World.""

"Hello World" I have, "Hello, World!!" I just can't seem to get. Damn punctuation!

[Fido]

Originally posted by sabotai
"All that and he has never gotten past "Hello World.""

"Hello World" I have, "Hello, World!!" I just can't seem to get. Damn punctuation!

Adding the punctuation is easy. Feel free to use the code below as a reference.


x(f,s,c)char*s;{return
f&1?*s?*s-c?x(f,++s,c):10[s]:0:f&2?
x(--f,"&$#%@!)*~'!dowl\n Hre",c):*s?
x(f,s+1,putchar(x(f-2,"^&%!*)",*s))):0;}

main(){return x(4,"*'@@#)%#~@$&&!",65);}

[Adamski47]

Sundancer, I would be very interested in assisting you in any way you see fit. I do not have programming skills but am very interested and very passionate about making a sports sim of some kind. Let me know if I can do anything to help.

Mike
[email protected]

[sabotai]

Kind of gives me an idea...why doesn't the community come together and create an open-source text sim? There's plenty of programmers here and many more willing to help with other things...

Just an idea...

[GoldenEagle]

The biggest thing you need is researches and a common language if you want to have an open text sim. The only thing I know is Visual Basic, I can help there.

[McSweeny]

i don't know how to program, but i sure as hell can be un-helpfull :)

[SunDancer]

Adamski, private message me.

What kinbd of languages are games like OOTP 5, FOF and CM programmed in?

[samifan24]

I would be interested in doing research or helping out on a group project. I can't program but I am willing to help in whatever capacity possible.

[sabotai]

"What kinbd of languages are games like OOTP 5, FOF and CM programmed in?"

Know for a fact that FOF is C++. CM and OOTP5 are most likely C++ as well.

EHM (The free version) and Puresim were done in Visual Basic.

FLS: Football (shameless plug) is done in Delphi.

[the_meanstrosity]

I'd be willing as well. I've done some Java if anyone is interested. Feel free to PM me and we can chat on ICQ, AIM, or email.

[Fido]

Originally posted by GoldenEagle
The biggest thing you need is researches and a common language if you want to have an open text sim. The only thing I know is Visual Basic, I can help there.

Not really as important as you might think. If we compartamentalize things and use a common interface (like COM), then you could have portions written in C++, portions in Delphi, and portions in VB.

Count me in in you need any C++ developers.

[WSUCougar]

I, too, am no programmer, but I'd be happy to write and/or proof text and serve as a sounding board.

I can also bring a keen knowledge of colossal squid issues to the team. :D

[Bee]

What sport would you guys do?

Edit: Or would you do something like a political sim? If you did a political sim here's a link to an open source game that could be modified and incorporated into your work. Just a thought... linky (http://accuratedemocracy.com/s_sim_ad.htm)

[Aylmar]

To answer LionKing, I'm still pecking away at a NASCAR sim. The base "race" engine is probably about 50% done, give or take a few percentage points.

As work and real life speed up and slow down...so does the progress...

I'd be willing to contribute to an open source project as well. I know Java, C++, and VB, but I'll only code for pleasure in Java or C. :) Keep me in the loop.

[Bee]

Originally posted by Aylmar
To answer LionKing, I'm still pecking away at a NASCAR sim. The base "race" engine is probably about 50% done, give or take a few percentage points.

As work and real life speed up and slow down...so does the progress...

I'd be willing to contribute to an open source project as well. I know Java, C++, and VB, but I'll only code for pleasure in Java or C. :) Keep me in the loop.

The NASCAR sim idea I think is a great one. I hope you keep us informed.

[Aylmar]

I will. To begin with, the game engine will simply be a port of a spreadsheet that Honolulu_Blue put together to simulate races in a season. After that portion, the basic "calc engine" is finished, then we'll start adding a bit of window dressing and prettying things up a bit (in addition to enhancing and extending the engine).

I don't want to take credit for the idea. It's not mine...I'm just the tech resource. :)

[BreizhManu]

I'd like to see a Basketball sim just like EHM (focus on the NBA but include many europeans/south americans leagues).

Could be interesting

[Aylmar]

For a group think project, I like the idea of a political simulation.

[samifan24]

Originally posted by Aylmar
For a group think project, I like the idea of a political simulation.

I second that.

[SunDancer]

So for the "best" tools, it would cost about $2-$3,000, plus developing the game itself?

[Bee]

There's also an open source game out there similar to the civ games but I think it uses existing countries. That might also be cannibalized if it has any merit to it. I don't remember the name though.

I was involved in an open source development in college (many years ago) mostly as an idea man since I'm not much of a programmer. It seemed to help a lot when we started taking existing programs and modifying them to do what we wanted. I don't know if that would still be the case or not since that was so long ago. The guys I worked with felt it was easier to take something and practically do a complete rewrite than to start with a blank page. But like I said it might be easier to start from scratch nowadays. :)

[Aylmar]

Originally posted by SunDancer
So for the "best" tools, it would cost about $2-$3,000, plus developing the game itself?

For the MS tools, probably something like that. If you don't have that kind of cash to drop, I'd look into either doing something in Java or getting some of the free tools that are out there like Dev-C++. There are plenty of free alternatives to Visual Studio. They may lack a bell or whistle here and there, but you can still use them to get the job done just as effectively.

In short, don't worry about the tools you're using. Worry about the code you're producing. :)

[SunDancer]

What is Visual Studio? What are MS tools? WHat makes them better?

[Franklinnoble]

Originally posted by SunDancer
What is Visual Studio? What are MS tools? WHat makes them better?

Visual Studio is the blanket name Microsoft gives its entire suite of development tools... it includes Visual C++, Visual Basic, etc.

Jim did FOF with Microsoft Visual C++. He's also said that he learned all he could about MFC (Microsoft Foundation Classes), which, as I understand, is pretty helpful when it comes to programming C++ code for Windows.

Personally, I'm in the middle of teaching myself the same set of tools he used in order to work on a horse racing simulator that I'd like to create.

[Aylmar]

Visual Studio is the integrated development environment (IDE) released by Microsoft. With it, you can easily develop Windows applications due to the solid WYSIWYG ("What You See Is What You Get") editor (basically, you can drop GUI objects onto the forms and drag them around to locations that you want and the IDE takes care of the code to make those changes happen in the background). Visual Studio also contains one of the best debuggers known to man. Add all this together, and you have a very nice suite of development tools, if you have the cash. When I say the phrase 'MS tools', this is what I mean. With others, that may vary.

The reality of the situation (for the cash impaired) is that there are free tools on the market that will allow you to do the same things that you can do with Visual Studio. You won't get the snappy GUI editor, but when you break it all down (especially with the newer .NET releases of the SDK), the MFC (Microsoft Foundation Classes, where most of the basic Windows graphical widgets live) can be configured without a fancy IDE. .NET programs, according to MS, can be written with nothing more than Notepad. :)

[sabotai]

I'd be willing to help out too. Just as long as it is not a pro football sim :D

In all seriousness, I liek political sim idea. A lot of people have mentioned they'd like one and there doesn't seem to be any really good ones out there,

[Bee]

I'm willing to make suggestions. :D

[Aylmar]

Alright...then we should start a thread for the thing. We need to start taking ideas for the overall theme of the project (as well as a succinct statement of goals for the initial release). After that's finalized, we can start hammering out some requirements and/or a wish-list for features. Once we have generated some documents for the project, we can start a SourceForge project to leverage their CVS servers for source control (I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I put everything into CVS...source code, documenation, everything but builds, that is..).

We could see where it goes, at least. If it dies on the vine...so be it. It's not like we have anything better to do. :)

[GoldenEagle]

Political Siim is my vote. I say something like called "The World Today". In fact I have already basically started on the game and have many ideas. :)

[sabotai]

Hey Skydog, if you're reading, would it be possible to set up another section for this? That way General Discuassion won't be cluttered with this project?

[Franklinnoble]

Originally posted by sabotai
Hey Skydog, if you're reading, would it be possible to set up another section for this? That way General Discuassion won't be cluttered with this project?

I agree. We wouldn't want any non-FOF topics popping up around here. :rolleyes:

[Bee]

Well, there's generally 2 types of political sims I've seen. 1. Election sims and 2. International political sims.

The Election sim could involve taking your politician from local elections to state government elections to national elections with it culminating in a run for the presidency. The thrust of the game is the election, not the day to day running of the government.

The International political sim would be more along the lines of having to deal with wars, the UN, trade negotiations, etc. The election is generally simplistic and mostly involves approval ratings. The main thrust is dealing with other governments.

The ultimate sim would combine the two, but that's probably way too much to bite off for something like this (at least initially :D). So probably the next decision is which type of sim should be done?

[Aylmar]

For the initial product, how about starting out with an election simulation? I think that, of the two, an engine that takes your candidate from the small-time to big-time elections would be simpler to design (at least at first blush). We can also make a very simple decision tree for voting in the initial releases and then introduce complexity on an iterative basis. The most important factor, to me, in a project like this, is doing something that will allow us for an early success or two. If you go forever without seeing any results, people tend to lose interest and then the momentum of the project fades. Yes, documentation is a good thing...but nothing charges up the juice like the first time you see something you helped build running on your desktop (or server).

Just a few suggestions... :)

[Bee]

Originally posted by GoldenEagle
Political Siim is my vote. I say something like called "The World Today". In fact I have already basically started on the game and have many ideas. :)

I like that name. :D

[Bee]

Originally posted by Aylmar
For the initial product, how about starting out with an election simulation? I think that, of the two, an engine that takes your candidate from the small-time to big-time elections would be simpler to design (at least at first blush). We can also make a very simple decision tree for voting in the initial releases and then introduce complexity on an iterative basis. The most important factor, to me, in a project like this, is doing something that will allow us for an early success or two. If you go forever without seeing any results, people tend to lose interest and then the momentum of the project fades. Yes, documentation is a good thing...but nothing charges up the juice like the first time you see something you helped build running on your desktop (or server).

Just a few suggestions... :)

Those are all good points.

[Fido]

Originally posted by Bee
...but that's probably way too much to bite off for something like this (at least initially :D).

I completely disagree. I think the decision should be made now what the game will be. If we spend days/weeks/months writing the election sim, then decide we really wanted the global one then we will have to rework the code. The design should be what you want the game to be. Then you establish milestones that are attainable. If you want a game that does both than you simply put the first part as a milestone.

My ideal game would be a multiplayer online version. You all start out as a candidate in the city/state/country of your choice, and are all competing for total world domination.

[Raven]

Being a novice programmer, I am looking forward to seeing how this pans out. Im not big on seeing a political sim, but anything sport related would catch my interest.


I have a question though - let's say you write all your code in C++, from there what do you use to establish a GUI (using BMP or GIFs and stuff) as opposed to it being viewed in DOS-like mode? Sorry, I dont know the correct lingo there.

[Fido]

Originally posted by Raven
I have a question though - let's say you write all your code in C++, from there what do you use to establish a GUI (using BMP or GIFs and stuff) as opposed to it being viewed in DOS-like mode? Sorry, I dont know the correct lingo there.

Depends on the platform, but there's an API (Application Programming Interface or something like that) that lets you do the graphics. Windows all uses GDI, which is wrapped up and made easier by MFC. It al depends on what you want it to do. "Simple" interfaces like FOF can be done with GDI/custom controls. More elegant ones may require from scratch creration in OpenGL/Direct3D.

[Aylmar]

Originally posted by Fido
I completely disagree. I think the decision should be made now what the game will be. If we spend days/weeks/months writing the election sim, then decide we really wanted the global one then we will have to rework the code. The design should be what you want the game to be. Then you establish milestones that are attainable. If you want a game that does both than you simply put the first part as a milestone.

Good points. Deciding that we want to global simulation instead of the election sim doesn't mean that we have to rework all the election code, though. The election portions can just become modules in the finished product.

[GoldenEagle]

We could develop a massive college football sim, maybe online, similar to hattrick.

[Fido]

Originally posted by Aylmar
Good points. Deciding that we want to global simulation instead of the election sim doesn't mean that we have to rework all the election code, though. The election portions can just become modules in the finished product.

That depends on what the initial election scheme is, and how the design is done. If the election process is designed to be modular then there is no problem. If the program is just simulating the US election process, then there is no need to be modular. The interfaces into the modules need to be robust enough to handle the election practices of various countries if it is decided to switch to a global sim.

[Fido]

Originally posted by GoldenEagle
We could develop a massive college football sim, maybe online, similar to hattrick.

I'm thinking taht a sports sim may be the way to go. While the idea of a political sim is very interresting, it may be in the "biting off more than you can chew" category. There's just so much to deal with in politics - PACs, Lobyists, Unions, Constituents, ethics, backroom dealing, etc etc etc. Does anyone here really have the kind of experience/knowledge that would be reuired to take something like that on?

[Bee]

Originally posted by Fido
I completely disagree.

I disagree that you disagree. :D
I think we're actually saying basically similar things in different ways.

I think the decision should be made now what the game will be. If we spend days/weeks/months writing the election sim, then decide we really wanted the global one then we will have to rework the code.


I completely agree. That's why I suggested our next decision be what kind of game we are going to do.


The design should be what you want the game to be. Then you establish milestones that are attainable. If you want a game that does both than you simply put the first part as a milestone.
Again I pretty much agree. We should do the game we want, but at some point you have to draw the line and say this is going to be too much to ever complete. JMO, but I think if you sit down and layout a huge game on paper, the project will never get off the ground. If we can pick a section that could be an independent module and develop that, I think the overall project would have a better chance of success. That way we see progress quicker and if it's developed as an independent module we can still "add-on" a day to day political sim once you've been elected. JMO though.

[Honolulu Blue]

Originally posted by Aylmar
I don't want to take credit for the idea. It's not mine...I'm just the tech resource. :)

Yeah, but without this tech resource, my ideas would be nowhere. Thanks for all your help.

Not much to add on the non-tech front. I still have my ideas about how to build the career sim game around the race sim engine and am always thinking of others. I also watch the races to see where the ratings and/or formulae can be improved.

[Aylmar]

Originally posted by Fido
That depends on what the initial election scheme is, and how the design is done. If the election process is designed to be modular then there is no problem. If the program is just simulating the US election process, then there is no need to be modular. The interfaces into the modules need to be robust enough to handle the election practices of various countries if it is decided to switch to a global sim.

And why couldn't you just take the non-modular US election process and modularize it? Yes, you would be reworking some of the code (mostly the interfaces for accessing the methods/functions), but you should be able to leave any core US election functionality virtually intact. Refactoring is a beautiful thing...

I'm not dismissing your points, Fido. In fact, I agree that as many decisions as possible should be made up front. I just think it's an interesting discussion thread. :)

[Bee]

Originally posted by Fido
I'm thinking taht a sports sim may be the way to go. While the idea of a political sim is very interresting, it may be in the "biting off more than you can chew" category. There's just so much to deal with in politics - PACs, Lobyists, Unions, Constituents, ethics, backroom dealing, etc etc etc. Does anyone here really have the kind of experience/knowledge that would be reuired to take something like that on?

Either would be fine with me. In either case, the difficulty will depend on how much detail you really want to get into.

[Fido]

Originally posted by Bee
That way we see progress quicker and if it's developed as an independent module we can still "add-on" a day to day political sim once you've been elected. JMO though. [/B]

While progress is definately a good thing, having to redo code because of a spec change is a bad/demoralizing thing. I wasn't saying (or I didn't mean to say at least) that wo should go for the full game as a version 1. I'm saying that it pays to look ahead to future versions, and have them at least mentioned in the initial spec.

Let's try to make an example here. If the initial project is an election sim, then a day to day sim is added on, the election sim really shoudl be changed to reflect data that is now present (voting record, ethical conduct, public opinion, etc). That's all stuff that can be included in the initial election module (using some kind of default values) so the election code does not need to be revisited.

[Aylmar]

Alternatively, the sports sim market is pretty well tended at the moment. I'll contribute to either kind of project...but the idea of a political system of some kind is the most appealing to me...at least right now.

[Fido]

Originally posted by Aylmar
Yes, you would be reworking some of the code (mostly the interfaces for accessing the methods/functions), but you should be able to leave any core US election functionality virtually intact. Refactoring is a beautiful thing...

Refactoring and revisiting code is a dangerous thing. It introduces the possibility of the introduction of hard to detect little bugs. Plus its an increase in development time. The time the programmer spends making the changes rewuired to modularize something could be better spent working on new features. All it takes is additional planning up front. The Spec is not going to cover everything - its just not possible, but it shoud cover as much as is possible.

I'm not dismissing your points, Fido. In fact, I agree that as many decisions as possible should be made up front. I just think it's an interesting discussion thread. :)

Dismiss away - I'm used to it. :)

[Bee]

Originally posted by Fido
While progress is definately a good thing, having to redo code because of a spec change is a bad/demoralizing thing. I wasn't saying (or I didn't mean to say at least) that wo should go for the full game as a version 1. I'm saying that it pays to look ahead to future versions, and have them at least mentioned in the initial spec.

Let's try to make an example here. If the initial project is an election sim, then a day to day sim is added on, the election sim really shoudl be changed to reflect data that is now present (voting record, ethical conduct, public opinion, etc). That's all stuff that can be included in the initial election module (using some kind of default values) so the election code does not need to be revisited.

I think we're on the same page. We definitely need to look ahead, but I don't think we want to tackle actually designing everything off the bat.

Edit: By not designing everything I mean for all future add-ons etc.

[Aylmar]

Originally posted by Fido
Refactoring and revisiting code is a dangerous thing.

Wow...I couldn't disagree with you more. I subscribe to the theory that every project should have refactoring time built into the task list. In fact, I've refactored (to some extent or another) every single release I've ever been a part of as a programmer. While there is a minor risk of introducing a bug or two, good regression testing will pick up any problems you may have caused as soon as you reexecute your unit tests (not all...but there is no such thing as bug-free code)...whether it's been recently refactored and optimized or just left there since day one.

I think the risk of introducing a few small defects that will most likely be flushed out during testing is completely worth the advantages in maintenance and clarity that refactoring provides.

[Fido]

Originally posted by Aylmar
Alternatively, the sports sim market is pretty well tended at the moment. I'll contribute to either kind of project...but the idea of a political system of some kind is the most appealing to me...at least right now.

I disagree (at least I think I do). I think there's lots of room in sports sims. There's so different ways to approach it. Take something as overdone as Pro Football. Want to make a football sim game but have it be different? Combine the sports sim with an RPG. Instead of choosing a character class you chose a profession (Player, Coach, Owner, Agent, etc). It's all about your take on the game.

All I was trying to say the saying "write what you know" about writing novels also applied to programming. Anything can be simulated, but you need people involved who are familiar with the nuances of what you are simulating.

[GoldenEagle]

I say an RPG online College Football Sim is the way to go. But Ill support any project. I have many ideas for both.

[Fido]

Originally posted by Aylmar
Wow...I couldn't disagree with you more. I subscribe to the theory that every project should have refactoring time built into the task list. In fact, I've refactored (to some extent or another) every single release I've ever been a part of as a programmer. While there is a minor risk of introducing a bug or two, good regression testing will pick up any problems you may have caused as soon as you reexecute your unit tests (not all...but there is no such thing as bug-free code)...whether it's been recently refactored and optimized or just left there since day one.


Programming styles/techniques have a way pf making people disagree. I've just seen too many cases of reworking code being detrimental fo me to endorse it. When done right, yes it can be good. When done haphazzardly and without regard for dependencies in other modules, it can be a nightmare. Done within reason it is good, but without some limit put on people, you can wind up spending more time refactoring then you do implementing.

[Aylmar]

Originally posted by Fido
Done within reason it is good

Indeed, that's the key. What you don't want is someone who just read Fowler's book going wild all over your code. It's an excellent read, and I can see how it would make some people a tad overzealous. :)

[Aylmar]

Back to the original discussion...do we need a poll to decide, or should we just keep up the discussion until we come to a consensus? It seems like everyone is saying 'I like this...but I'll help with anything'. If that's the case, perhaps someone should just make a decision and run with it.

[Barkeep49]

Originally posted by Aylmar
Back to the original discussion...do we need a poll to decide, or should we just keep up the discussion until we come to a consensus? It seems like everyone is saying 'I like this...but I'll help with anything'. If that's the case, perhaps someone should just make a decision and run with it.

I think we need to agree on a project leader. I think someone with real life experince should fill this position for obvious reasons and perhaps a poll wouldn't be unwise there.

As for the type of sim I think that a political sim is open territory. As either a day-to-day sim or an election sim we would be touching ground that hasn't really been done in a while in any good way. I think an election sim makes some sense as I think it would be slightly easier to program, but day-to-day would probally have more lasting appeal. For either type of political sim I gladly offer my skills as a researcher and tester.

[Adamski47]

I am still interested in helping. I would only be interested in a sports related sim. I don't mean to sound cliche, but I have ideas for a football sim (on any level and everything in between) up the yin-yang.

I would be very interested in perhaps making a football universe:

High School
Players
Coaches
Athletic Director

College
Players
Coaches
Athletic Director

NFL
Players
Coaches
Genrral Managers

The players, coaches and administration would work their way up the ladder.

Too go along with the RPG perspective (you guys read my mind) you could begin the game a number of different ways:

a) Try out for the freshman high school team, coach likes you and thinks you'll make a good FL...and the legacy begins.

b) Too old for high school? Just jump into a pro-career, or perhaps start in college.

c) Not much of a player on the field? Try coaching.
Your local high school gives you a shot and you're off...

d) Perhaps you're more of a general manager type.
Start as a high school Atletic Director and work your way up the ladder.

Everything could be interchangable, you could just start in the NFL as a GM no questions asked.

Each role would have specific limits; players only control their time (practicing, free time etc etc) their contracts and their attitudes (I want to be traded!) This same "know your role" mentality would apply to the coaches and administrators as well.

Hell, do it all, start as a high school player, go to college, to the NFL, retire into coaching or administration. The possibilities are endless.

Sorry for the long post but this is an idea that has been floating around in my head for quite some time. I wish I had the programming knowledge to do something with it. Not to mention the time and patience required.

Let me know what I can do to help,
Mike

[Bee]

Originally posted by Barkeep49
I think we need to agree on a project leader. I think someone with real life experince should fill this position for obvious reasons ...


I couldn't agree more. It should also be someone committed to the project and they should be a programmer IMO (without the programmers this will die a very sudden death :)).

[Karim]

An open-source FOFC project sounds very interesting. There aren't any good international political sims though... Balance of Power, Shadow President and others at Underdogs are all that's out there. It would be nice to see something modernized.

A development team with final say is a must. A consensus on the smallest insignificant detail will never be achieved otherwise with so many people involved.

[illinifan999]

I'd be willing to help in anything other than programming. Though Junior year they offer a class on how to learn C++, so I might take that. On what kind of game. Any kind, hell even curling. ;) If we did do a political sim I would rather do international, but that's me. I'm still on board with helping anyway possible, other thatn programming.

"I'm an idea man, I lack the neccesary knowledge to be a put in to action man."

[TredWel]

Sheesh, how did I miss this thread?

Sign me up for being very interested. Fluent in C++ and Java, as well as a host of other languages. I doubt I'd make a good project leader, but as a grunt, I'm there.

Making a political sim would be interesting, but I'm more in favor of the football RPG idea more than anything else. But, whatever we end up doing, I'll be glad to lend a hand.

[Draft Dodger]

I missed all this too - neat idea. my skillz are weak, but I'd like to help

[SunDancer]

I would love to see a Pro Basketball Sim in the style of CM.

[korme]

Fuckin' VB, hard as hell.. All the power to someone who it comes easy to.

[Joe Stallings]

Here is a great 30-page primer on developing the design document, and something we use at .400 Software Studios (the actual article comes from Gamasutra):

http://www.400softwarestudios.com/public/The Anatomy of a Design Document.pdf (http://)

Enjoy.

JMS

[Aylmar]

Joe, that's pure class. The willingness to help out a potential project that may eventually compete (directly or indirectly) with one of your company's products is an excellent gesture. Just wanted to say that. :)

[SportsDino]

In all of my game attempts that have actually yielded useful code (yet to date no completions so I'm not the best advisor) they all started with design documents and a gameplay manual (not the exact button presses to accomplish something, but the rules of the games, how the features work, etc.) A design document does not have to be incredibly massive if your doing a solo project as you don't need to communicate what your doing to team members, but the larger it is, generally the better things turn out. Of course if your game is simple your design should reflect that.

And try to do all the actual math in the design. In a football game for instance I'd make the salary negotiation formulas before I even started coding because otherwise when you get into the coding phase you might feel like over simplifying the math, or might go through too fast and miss any special exceptions, and then have trouble figuring out what is wrong. Plus during coding you should be thinking as uncreatively as possible, if you try to concentrate on syntax at the same time as making up the content you will get stuck on both (two different types of thinking I feel).

I personally code fastest when I have the plan in front of me and just focus on getting all the code out with clean syntax. I think up content (like features or how to handle gameplay issues) better when I don't have code in front of me (you start tracing the code in the back of your mind looking for missing semicolons instead of creating).

Before I started following these procedures it would take me roughly three to five times longer to get the same amount of work done as concentrating on one at a time and going all out. On the game closest to completion (MP gladiator sim league) I've spent well into a several dozen hours on (over several months in between school/work so a lot of time might be just reacquianting myself with what I was doing last time I worked on it).

Actual coding (in C++ or laying out MFC GUIs) was roughly ten of those hours (its an incredibly simple program when designed right) and maybe another five bugtesting (usually bugtesting takes up more hours than coding but I worked hard to avoid bugs in the first place in the design).

If I could figure out a convenient multiplayer scheme I'd be done, thank goodness for summer break.

[Raven]

Joe, that link isnt working. Did you take it down?

[HeavyReign]

Copy the text for the link and paste it into your browser and it will work.

[Raven]

Thanks, HR. But how do I read a PDF?

[sabotai]

You have to install Acrobat Reader. It's free.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally posted by Raven
Thanks, HR. But how do I read a PDF?

you need Adobe Acrobat Reader.

it's a free download if you are interested.


http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html

[sianews]

I still vote Nascar. Popular sport that has many angles to approach it from, yet none are so overwhelmingly complicated that the project would eventually die out.

[GoldenEagle]

I just dont see a market for NASCAR.

[sabotai]

I think there's a market for NASCAR. Actually, maybe not if we kept it strictly NASCAR.

Perhaps an CM style racing sim. Keep track of F1, NASCAR, Indy, Stunt cars, drag racing, etc. etc. That would be wicked awesome!

In fact, I change my vote to this. A CM-like racing sim spanning the globe of racing.

[GoldenEagle]

Im guessing we will do this project for free and it should be for the sole enjoyment of the FOFC community. If NASCAR is that, I am all for it.

[Fido]

Originally posted by Aylmar
Joe, that's pure class. The willingness to help out a potential project that may eventually compete (directly or indirectly) with one of your company's products is an excellent gesture. Just wanted to say that. :)

Is it an excellent gesture or an opportunity to see what kind of code developers who are interrested in text sims can produce. Could be a recruiting effort. :)

[SunDancer]

I cannot open the link to that site posted by Joe.

[moriarty]

Don't click on the link (it's incorrect), just copy the link into your address browser.

[the_meanstrosity]

I'm still interested in assisting. I've got a background in Java development. Still hosting this at sourceforge?

[Fido]

Originally posted by the_meanstrosity
I'm still interested in assisting. I've got a background in Java development. Still hosting this at sourceforge?

Seem as if this may have died before it even got started. Most likely because of the sports vs political sim debate (which is a virtual dead heat in the voting). Its a shame though because there were some great ideas being bounced around, including one that has inspired me to begin the design phase (just what I need - a simulation game to occupy my time away from work - writing simulation software).

[Draft Dodger]

Originally posted by Fido
Seem as if this may have died before it even got started. Most likely because of the sports vs political sim debate (which is a virtual dead heat in the voting). Its a shame though because there were some great ideas being bounced around, including one that has inspired me to begin the design phase (just what I need - a simulation game to occupy my time away from work - writing simulation software).

it inspired me to finally reinstall my Visual C++ Studio and start futzing again.

[AgPete]

Originally posted by Draft Dodger
it inspired me to finally reinstall my Visual C++ Studio and start futzing again.

LOL I've considered reinstalling my MS Visual Studio after reading this too. :D

Since we're brainstorming about sports sims, here's an idea I've always wanted to see incorporated into a historical football sim. It would work for any sport really but it would be great with the FOF draft files that Nilidor and others have graciously worked on.

Four different modes for historical drafts--

1) True Attributes - Basically, exactly what we have now for OOTP & FOF historical drafts. All real players from the past are rated strictly on their true ratings and thus we see a Terrell Owens or Terrell Davis getting drafted in the first round instead of their original positions.

2) True Attributes w/True Historical Rankings - Same attributes as #1 but all players are ranked in a tier system much like Madden uses. An example is all quarterbacks are projected as a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. round pick. Therefore, someone like Terrell Davis is given his real life abilities but CPU controlled teams select players based on their historically correct rankings. So Terrell Davis is still picked on the second day of the draft but this time its maybe the Cardinals or Patriots finding a diamond in the rough instead of the Broncos.

3) Random Attributes - Just like it says. All abilities are randomly selected. It would use the same system FOF uses for all young players. There would be a few real life stars that end up as busts and vice versa. Players would be drafted on their ratings alone just like #1.

4) Random Attributes w/True Historical Rankings - Uses the same system as #3 but just as #2 did, it depends on historical rankings. So with this system, maybe NFL history is recreated and in 1989 Tony "The Incredible Bulk" Mandarich is drafted 2nd overall but ends up becoming a Hall of Famer while Troy Aikman drafted 1st overall is a bust.

Another idea I've always wanted to see is more effort in historical recreation of expansion franchises. I'd like to see true cities that were seeking expansions teams allowed to be either 1) voted by the owner's committees or 2) selected by the human player. So all true expansion teams will be offered in the correct years but it will be up to the player to either do it randomly with the owner's committee voting or by the book, and selecting the true cities that won franchises. It would be fun to offer real life alternatives to Jacksonville and Carolina and let players select other cities that were in heavy competition for an NFL franchise. I'd also like to see historical relocations, true or possible, recreated. So with a competitive economic system, maybe the Texans remain in Dallas while the Cowboys end up in Kansas City as the Chiefs.

[AgPete]

dola

Of course, my dream sim would be one that combines the video options of Madden with the in-depth personnel decisions of FOF. I'd love to see a game that allows someone to watch a mini-TV in the center of the screen that sims a game visually just as Madden does and records highlights. So instead of allowing the game to save box scores or game logs you would also be given the option to save film highlights and could click a link that would allow you to watch your quarterback when he threw for over 5,000 yards in a season, or a game winning touchdown pass, etc. It would be a system hog but damn would it immerse you in the franchise unlike any other sim ever has.

[sabotai]

"Of course, my dream sim would be one that combines the video options of Madden with the in-depth personnel decisions of FOF. I'd love to see a game that allows someone to watch a mini-TV in the center of the screen that sims a game visually just as Madden does and records highlights. So instead of allowing the game to save box scores or game logs you would also be given the option to save film highlights and could click a link that would allow you to watch your quarterback when he threw for over 5,000 yards in a season, or a game winning touchdown pass, etc. It would be a system hog but damn would it immerse you in the franchise unlike any other sim ever has."

That's a sweet idea.

Not any visual display for games in FLS, but if I decide to do a version 2, this is something I'll be throwing in the design doc. :)

[sabotai]

dola,

Not sure if it's died yet. :) Maybe all who want to get involved with some sort of open source project should get together online (sometime next week perhaps, since Thurs is tommorow that that's too short notice, and weekends don't seem to be good for many people) and discuss what we want to do.

[AgPete]

Sabotai, I didn't know you were working on a football sim. I just checked your webpage. Great work bro! Keep it up! I look forward to playing it when you're finished. :)

[Fido]

Originally posted by sabotai
dola,

Not sure if it's died yet. :) Maybe all who want to get involved with some sort of open source project should get together online (sometime next week perhaps, since Thurs is tommorow that that's too short notice, and weekends don't seem to be good for many people) and discuss what we want to do.

I only pronounced it dead because of the lack of activity compared to yesterday. I'm actually quite inspired by one idea, but I'd be happy to go to any online meeting to see if there's a possibility or working on something else as a team - that is a very enticing prospect.

We could schedule something for tomorrow and see what the reaction is - better to reschedule because of conflicts then to never schedule at all :)

[samifan24]

I think a chat would work well here. I also think that we need to decide on what type of sim to work on. Whether you consider the poll or not, ultimately you will be working on a project which everybody isn't going to love, but I think that's not really the point.

I believe the purpose is for us all to get together and have some fun while trying to see what we can come up with, so the focus of the project isn't as important as what we put into/get out of it. I may be in the minority here but I really feel that no matter what kind of sim we work on, it will be a blast to collaborate with you all.

I'm still committed to helping out any way I can and I believe there are enough of you who also feel as I do and are ready to sit down and try to start something here. Let's give it a shot.

[sabotai]

"I believe the purpose is for us all to get together and have some fun while trying to see what we can come up with, so the focus of the project isn't as important as what we put into/get out of it. I may be in the minority here but I really feel that no matter what kind of sim we work on, it will be a blast to collaborate with you all. "

I don't think the focus matters either. I think most of the people here would like to work on any sim idea that the community comes up with. Speaking for myself, I'd rather do a CM style racing sim over an election sim, and I'd rather do an election sim over a CM style basketball sim, and I'd rather do a CM style basketball sim over a RPG style football sim...and there's dozens more.

But, the point is no matter what the community comes up with, I'd be more than willing to donate time, code, etc. to the project. And I think most other people here would too.

I'll set up a Yahoo chatroom tomorrow night at 9 PM EST (If I can...no promises). For everyone who does not have a Yahoo account, it's free, blah blah blah. Just go to yahoo and sign up. You don't have to ever use their e-mail or anything (I have about a dozen accounts I created as jokes that I've never used other than to use in chat.)

So tomorrow at 9PM EST (6PM PST) I'll set up a room called "FOFC Open Source Project" Whoever can make it, cool. If you can't make it, then no biggie. We'll just use this chat to discuss possible sim ideas. I don't think we should finalize the idea until next week when everyone has had a chance to speak up. But then again, if there is an overwhelming vote for one idea...then we might as well.

Just thinking out loud. :) Anyway, I'll create the room under Games called "FOFC Open Source Project." My nick is chronokhan on Yahoo, so send me a PM if you can't see the room for whatever reason.

EDIT: Or whoever out there wants to create the room in case I'm late or whatever...

[3ric]

What the project needs to get off the ground is a critical mass of people who can agree on the same idea. If we spend too much time discussing what to do it's getting nowhere - there need to be a person or two with a vision that the rest of the project group can share.

The vision doesn't have to be totally realistic or even detailed - just "let's make the best election sim we can produce" or something. That shared vision alone will pull the project in the right direction. Of course, that'll put the visionary in something of a "leader" position as well.

Fido mentioned that he'd started writing the beginnings of a design document - which means he has a vision of what he could do. I'd be happy sharing that vision, and helping him out with whatever that would be.

[Fido]

Originally posted by 3ric
Fido mentioned that he'd started writing the beginnings of a design document - which means he has a vision of what he could do. I'd be happy sharing that vision, and helping him out with whatever that would be.

Actually, things have changed somewhat - Fido has a concept, a decent grip on the rules system, a picture of the features I want, and, most exciting - possibly the start of a design/development team.

Now Ijust need to flesh out the ideas and get them down on paper. I'll probably do that in the Dynasties section, so look for something theer later on.

[Aylmar]

Hey Fido,

Is it the "dating" game that was mentioned in another thread? You're right, the AI involved in that kind of project would have to be extremely complex...which makes the idea very interesting. If you'd rather not say, that's cool too....just thought I'd ask. :)

[Bee]

Fido started a thread in the dynasty section concerning the game.

[Fido]

Originally posted by Aylmar
Hey Fido,

Is it the "dating" game that was mentioned in another thread? You're right, the AI involved in that kind of project would have to be extremely complex...which makes the idea very interesting. If you'd rather not say, that's cool too....just thought I'd ask. :)

lol...no that was a VERY short lived project. It seems cool on the surface, but then you realize that it involves simulating the mind of a woman which is far too daunting a task. :)

As to what I did decide on, you can read baout it here (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7615).

[GrantDawg]

That is very disappointing. All the ideas I read seemed so intereresting, except that one. :(

[Fido]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
That is very disappointing. All the ideas I read seemed so intereresting, except that one. :(

Why is it disappointing? Just because I choose to develop a certain thing does not mean that any group effort isn't going to happen.

[Aylmar]

(Didn't want to clutter your design thread with my random thoughts...so I'll post them here).

Interesting choice. While the premise of the game does appeal to me, I'm really not sure about the PbEM aspect of the game. I understand your reservations about not having a dedicated server or a dedicated connection, but I'm sure there are people willing to contribute to the project that would be able to provide a box and connection (like me...I can provide either a Windows or Linux(preferred, but either is possible) resource that will not move (barring a terrible occurance..like a foreclosure) for at least three or four years). :) In my mind, by limiting the play to Email only, you are severly undercutting your potential user base, especially since the game appears to be designed with no single user element (forgive me if I'm mistaken here...but I didn't see mention of it on the other thread).

Other than that, good job on the backstory and theme. I think that the premise of the game is sound and that it will prove to be an exciting and interesting project. If you want a coder, I'd be most interested in working on the combat system, I think, but my availability varies wildly with the client that I'm assigned to for the week (not to mention my existing NASCAR project), so I'm probably best cut out to be an "oppurtunity" resource at this point.

[Fido]

Originally posted by Aylmar
While the premise of the game does appeal to me, I'm really not sure about the PbEM aspect of the game. I understand your reservations about not having a dedicated server or a dedicated connection, but I'm sure there are people willing to contribute to the project that would be able to provide a box and connection (like me...I can provide either a Windows or Linux(preferred, but either is possible) resource that will not move (barring a terrible occurance..like a foreclosure) for at least three or four years). :) In my mind, by limiting the play to Email only, you are severly undercutting your potential user base, especially since the game appears to be designed with no single user element (forgive me if I'm mistaken here...but I didn't see mention of it on the other thread).


You're not alone - it bothers me as well. I don't like the notion of PbEM simply because it puts the onus of keeping the leagur going on a single player. If the host gets bored with the game or doesn't process the e-mails in a timely fashion then the game will suck for the players.

Not only is not having a server an issue here, you also bring up another pitfal in your "Linux(preferred, but either is possible) " statement. I've only made minimal Linux development efforts, and all they served to do was demonstrate to me that I am addicted to the IDE of Visual Studio. Working in Emacs/vi was just plain painful for me.

My idea for the PbEM woudl translate easily to a dedicated server though. I envision the E-mail as being a binary attachment of the player's decisions which would be sent off to the host for processing and generation of a binary result set which would be sent back. Dealing with binary data means that the code could easliy be written to either generate an e-mail or connect directly to a server.

I do see a solo version of the game. A single player playing against one or more Computer controlled opponents. This is actually the driving factor behind the sripting capability - allowing the user base to create custom opponents that behave differently in different situations.

[Aylmar]

I love vi. There is just something magical about being able to completely navigate a document without having to take my fingers off the home row. :) I haven't used Emacs that much (in my experience, you either like one or the other...and I started on vi, so that's where I've remained). Visual Studio is a great IDE, though. I've used it (for VB work) in the past, and I like it. As I said earlier, the debugger is what sets it apart.

If the email attachments are going to binary, then I'm thinking that you're going to have some piece of the codebase that is distributed to player's machines in order to generate the files that are attached to the email? Or am I overcomplicating matters? Perhaps we should transition this portion discussion to the dynasty thread... :)

[Fido]

Originally posted by Aylmar
Perhaps we should transition this portion discussion to the dynasty thread... :)

done

[Lazy Eye]

Is the reason why so many ppl use C++ over VB is it is better?

Is VB for beginners or something?

(As I am about to plunge into some self teaching on one or the other - I wanted to know which discipline I should follow)

[Fido]

Originally posted by Lazy Eye
Is the reason why so many ppl use C++ over VB is it is better?

Is VB for beginners or something?

(As I am about to plunge into some self teaching on one or the other - I wanted to know which discipline I should follow)

Its been my experience that a C++ vs VB vs Java discussion is flame bait, but I'll still throwin in my own opinions.

I prefer C++ because its tergeted towards developers coding for a specific platform. The language itself is easily protable to other polatforms (requires a recompile but it can be done) but the extensions are generaly platform specific. That's fine with me, since I write for Windows.

I don't like VB because it feels targeted at non-developers. Don't flame me for that, I know there are some very skilled people writing very solid VB code. However, there are also a lot of crap programs out there that are written in VB by people who have no business writing code.

Java is good, but I don't like the interpreted nature of it (same with .NET - its going to be slower). It also promotes careless coding practices through its garbage collection. If you write the code you shoudl be able to manage the lifetimes of your objects.

Basically it really doesn't matter what language you write in. There's nothing that you can do in one language that cannot be done in another. Its all about the person writing the code and choosing the best tool for what type of software you want to write.

[sabotai]

bump,

and a reminder. In about a little over an hour I'll be making that Yahoo chat room for whoever wants to stop by. Hopefully we can get some good discussion going.

It'll be "FOFC Open Source Project" under Games.

name: chronokhan if you want to add me to your friend's list.

[Barkeep49]

Is this room there yet?

[sabotai]

Ok...

for whatever reason, the room is not coming up on the list of rooms, so to join the room, add my name to your friend's list, and then right click on it and then click on "Join User in Chat" or something like that...

[WSUCougar]

I'm in.

[Joe Stallings]

Is the reason why so many ppl use C++ over VB is it is better?

VB controls (buttons, grids, etc.) are inherently slow, and its management of system memory and processes is mediocre. C++ does a much better job at both.

*But* you can pull off a decent game with VB if use a lot of Windows API and DirectX calls, which are much faster. Of course, you can do the same with C++, so then it just becomes of matter of which programming syntax you are more comfortable with.

JMS

[sabotai]

Just to build with what Joe said...

I find it much easier to write bad code with VB than with C++. It's very easy to learn VB but it's not as easy to learn how to code good in VB. So it's very tempting to write bad, easy code in VB.

As opposed to C++, which you can't do much with unless you do know how to write good code.

(Relativly speaking fo course. I do know it's easy to write bad in any language.)

[Bonegavel]

Originally posted by sabotai
(Relativly speaking fo course. I do know it's easy to write bad in any language.)

Well said. But, your point is well taken that c++ is far more structured and less forgiving.

In VB, anyone can write an application that will actually function. Maybe not as advertised, but none-the-less it will run when executed. C++, on the other hand, if you get a c++ program running, then chances are the person knows what they are doing and, on average, is going to perform better than a VB counter-part.

I know that sounds like programatic snobbery, but I've been on the "yeah, I got the VB program running, but it doesn't do anything" train and have since given it up in favour of c++ for any production-type apps.

This has been covered in many threads before, but it is all a matter of what you want to accomplish. I am in the middle of creating a pen and paper RPG and to write various utilities to aid in the creation process, I like to use VB. On the other hand, I am wriiting an application I hope to sell eventually and that I am writing in c++.

Bottom line: professional apps are generally written is c/c++. The pro-apps written in VB use Windows API calls (like Joe said) and that can be just as daunting as learning c++.

Microsoft is trying to change all this with .NET, however, and they would like you to start learning C#. They plan to port the .NET Common Language Runtime to other platforms (can you say java), which will actually be nice for us Windows devs, as our target audience will grow.

[Aylmar]

Originally posted by BoneGavel
Microsoft is trying to change all this with .NET, however, and they would like you to start learning C#. They plan to port the .NET Common Language Runtime to other platforms (can you say java), which will actually be nice for us Windows devs, as our target audience will grow.

Well, essentially, C# = Java. If you already know Java, C# is a nothing to pick up and learn. The new Microsoft ASP model is a revised version of Sun's JSP model as well. The entire .NET release is a pretty blantant copy of the Java way of doing things....right down to the "CLR". Typical MS... :)

[Fido]

Originally posted by BoneGavel
Bottom line: professional apps are generally written is c/c++. The pro-apps written in VB use Windows API calls (like Joe said) and that can be just as daunting as learning c++.

The only thind I disagree on in the above. I would say that Professinal apps are generally written by professional developers. Not saying peopel who code for a living, but people who know hat they are doing and take pride in their work. The language used is just a language. I've seen some dreadful c++ code, and some crappy programs written in c++. Good VB will outperform bad C++.

You coudl just as easily write a story in Latin as you coudl in English (provided you know Latin). Part of being a good developer is knowing what tools is applicable for the task at hand. Check out what's available and see what looks most appealing to you.

I wonder why FORTRAN hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet...:confused:

[Aylmar]

Originally posted by Fido
Its been my experience that a C++ vs VB vs Java discussion is flame bait, but I'll still throwin in my own opinions.

Absolutely. :)

I don't like VB because it feels targeted at non-developers. Don't flame me for that, I know there are some very skilled people writing very solid VB code. However, there are also a lot of crap programs out there that are written in VB by people who have no business writing code.

Couldn't agree more. The fact that it isn't strongly-typed is VB's biggest failing, at least in my eyes. In addition to that, too many things in VB feel like "black magic" to me (variants, anyone?) and that really turns me off.

Java is good, but I don't like the interpreted nature of it (same with .NET - its going to be slower). It also promotes careless coding practices through its garbage collection. If you write the code you shoudl be able to manage the lifetimes of your objects.

Interesting points. I would point out, however, that with the new HotSpot compilers (Sun's replacement for JIT), Java code is approaching similar benchmark numbers as native C++ under certain circumstances. I think it's interesting that MicroSoft slammed Sun and Java for years because it was an interpreted language...and now their entire .NET platform is built around interpreted languages. I strongly disagree with the garbage collection statement, but that's flamewar territory...and we're trying to stay out of that. ;)

Basically it really doesn't matter what language you write in. There's nothing that you can do in one language that cannot be done in another. Its all about the person writing the code and choosing the best tool for what type of software you want to write. [/B]

Well said.

[Fido]

Originally posted by Aylmar
The entire .NET release is a pretty blantant copy of the Java way of doing things

That's as fair as saying that java is a blatant copy of c++. Its valid for Sun to take an established language and try to enhance/improve it, but not for Microsoft? .NET brings the ability to write code in VB, C++, C#, FORTRAN, or any other .NET compatible language and have it run the same, with no worries about the procedural differences in the languages. Big step up over java.

[Fido]

Originally posted by Aylmar
Couldn't agree more. The fact that it isn't strongly-typed is VB's biggest failing, at least in my eyes. In addition to that, too many things in VB feel like "black magic" to me (variants, anyone?) and that really turns me off.

lol I actually liked the concept of variants when I sterted learning VB. It seemed like a neat idea. Then I ran into a situation where I had to use them in C++ code. THAT's ehen I began to realize their evilness.

[Aylmar]

Originally posted by Fido
That's as fair as saying that java is a blatant copy of c++. Its valid for Sun to take an established language and try to enhance/improve it, but not for Microsoft? .NET brings the ability to write code in VB, C++, C#, FORTRAN, or any other .NET compatible language and have it run the same, with no worries about the procedural differences in the languages. Big step up over java.

I don't think that's accurate at all. If Java is a blantant copy of C++, where is the equivalent of the JVM? The portability without a recompile (before .NET)? The JSP model is absolutely nothing like the original ASP way of doing things (compiled into byte-code as opposed to being interpreted line-by-line). In reality, I guess I should have said it's a copy of the J2EE way of doing things instead. Poorly worded on my part. :)

I'm not talking about extending languages, really. I'm talking about the underpinnings of the different development platforms. Where the similarity between the two platforms is strongest lies in two of the bedrock concepts of .NET. The CLR (or JVM) and ASP+ (essentially, JSPs). Is .NET a good thing? Yeah...it's a big step forward for Microsoft. It's great that they're actually making an attempt to remove language as a barrier to entering the development market for Windows platform software.

[Bonegavel]

Originally posted by Fido
The only thind I disagree on in the above. I would say that Professinal apps are generally written by professional developers. Not saying peopel who code for a living, but people who know hat they are doing and take pride in their work. The language used is just a language. I've seen some dreadful c++ code, and some crappy programs written in c++. Good VB will outperform bad C++.

You coudl just as easily write a story in Latin as you coudl in English (provided you know Latin). Part of being a good developer is knowing what tools is applicable for the task at hand. Check out what's available and see what looks most appealing to you.

I wonder why FORTRAN hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet...:confused:

Exactly. But if VB was so good, then professional developers would be using it in droves. You look at any app where speed is essential (games, chief among them) and you will see, probably, a 100% c/c++ code base.

The main reason behind this, however, may be portability. I know for a fact that the Quake series was created with portability in mind. Carmack is a genius. This would have been impossible with VB.

Oops, work calls. Must go.

[sabotai]

Varients....ugh....while we're at it, let's go back to using goto's all over the place too. :) (Talk about bad programming practices)

I remember when I first learned about varients. I said to myself "I'm just going to skip this section because these are time bombs waiting to go off..."

[Noop]

This might help

Running Back

• Start: initial quickness out of his stance and towards the LOS (line of scrimmage)
• Instincts-run vision: ability to see the hole, read blocking angles and react quickly
• Inside running ability: ability to pick and slide, quickness to the hole, cutting ability to elude tacklers; it also involves toughness, strength and durability to gain yards by himself
• Outside running ability: speed to get to the corner and turning the corner and heading upfield
• Elusive running ability: the ability to avoid tackles and change directions quickly. It also includes lateral quickness to skate and avoid parallel to and heading into the line of scrimmage
• Power running ability: balance upon contact, strength to be your own blocker and gain after contact yardage. Breaking tackles. Body lean (forward lean) and short yardage and goal line effectiveness
• Effort blocking: willingness to block in both the running and passing game. Willingness on inside and outside runs as well as stepping up to take on a defender in pass protection
• Run blocking: ability and effectiveness on the lead block, kick out block and chop block. It also includes the use of proper angles
• Pass blocking: hand use and lateral adjustment ability. Awareness in blitz pickup. Proper angles. Spacing and timing. Ability to slide and mirror with defender. Pre snap adjustments for blitzed and stunts
• Durability: ability to take a hit and pounding time after time and stay in the game and play effectively. Toughness and willingness to deliver blows as well as take them
• Ball security: the ability to secure all the pressure points of the football, cover the ball in traffic and protect the ball when relocating to the other hand
• Hands: does he have natural hands or does he fight and double catch the ball. Can he adjust and catch the ball out of the framework of his body
• Route running: does he have the quickness, agility and balance to get into his pass routes. Is he disciplined? Does he time his routes well? Can he secure block and release quickly after contact into his pass route and prepare his body for a pass?
• Running style: is he a slasher, darter or power back. Does he have a second gear? I he a 2 back running back? If so, is he more effective as a "I" back or split back and why? Is he a one back type of back? Is he a fullback and of so is he a blocking style of fullback or a running type or pass catching style fullback?