SportsDino's Dating Bloopers and Pleas for Advice Dynasty

[SportsDino]

SportsDino's Dating Bloopers and Pleas for Advice Dynasty

I tend to lead a very odd and often amusing in hindsight sort of life, and am terrible with women, so this might be an interesting tale to develop over the next few months as I'm at that point in my life where I know what I want to do, am confident my career is fine, but there is a massive gaping void when it comes to my personal life. Plus I'll hit 30 in a couple years and always felt by that point I'd be OLD!

So what I'll do is bring up various examples and hilarious stories, as well as ask difficult questions, and you, the viewing public, will be allowed to run some commentary or just plain laugh your ass off. Maybe along the way I'll learn enough to actually find someone worth marrying (sadly, I think having that as my goal is actually the sinker, since I start off more serious than most women right off the bat and scare em off).

Coming up soon, I'll catch people up to date with my current spot in life.

[JAG]

Coming up soon, I'll catch people up to date with my current spot in life.

Hah.

[SportsDino]

So our plucky adventurer's story pretty much starts in the middle of 2008, having been with the same girl at the time of their third anniversary the following events occur pretty much all at the same time:

1. The dinosaur gets off of a crappy project at work and gets to do something he wants for a change.
2. The dinosaur is striking it rich in poker and stocks, with gambles in the first providing the capital for crazier gambles (at the time) in the latter that happen to prove right a couple long standing economic theories that had been confusing the dinosaur for years.
3. The dinosaur is increasingly frustrated by his intended dino-bethrothed (although no golden rings had been passed as of that point, thank goodness!)
4. The dino-bethrothed is flirting heavilly with a dino-buddy of the dinosaur, and the discovery of such leads to a tyrannosaurus-sized breakdown.

Fast forward a year and a half later (roughly), in the intervening period we have a mish mash of the following:

- epic tailspins
- double life (worker zombie by day, poker/broker by night)
- drinkin
- gamblin
- almost being fired
- depression
- redemption
- slackin
- hard work
- getting a desired project at work AGAIN
- couple of inventions
- cash game with $30,000 in chips (only after the fact did I notice the parallel to rounders, haha)
- three months of broken heart
- an empty haunted house
- first million
- the quiet of nothing
- the noise within the crowd that was even quieter
- way too many funny little things to count
- a single date with a soccer chick way outta my league
- a relationship with a woman apparently outta my age range...

So ya, generally a mess.

I guess I should elaborate more on that last since its the topic at hand. She was 33 (now 34) and I'm 27. More on that next time.

[SportsDino]

So this gets to the first wacky love question:

What is necessary for relationships with a giant age gap to work?

Some preliminary thoughts:

1. Its easier for the guy to be older than the girl. For whatever reason it seems the natural preference is for girls to tend to older men and guys to younger girls, and going the opposite way is either frowned upon, or confusing.

2. Even smaller age gaps (say 6 years) seem to get noticed and may attention of more than I was expecting. I've even dated interracial before and didn't have as much interference as dating an older girl of the same race, which given all the stereotypes I thought the first would be a bigger issue.

3. No matter what you do to the contrary, your maturity seems to be judged by age first, even if you see certainly immature 35 year olds, or amazingly wise 27 year olds (yes I know being cocky is a sign of immaturity, so sue me).

4. Every seems to have a different definition and age limit for 'settling down'.

-----

So all those thoughts pretty much spring from this failed romantic endeavour. I amazingly met someone at one of the rare times I did something outside my normal routine (which sadly are pretty much universal sausage fests, booo, note to self break routine more often). I'm odd enough that I managed to attract notice of a 33 year old lady, it was a volunteer thing and I was hauling ass as is my usual routine on the rare occaisons i get off my lard butt and decide to help someone beside myself (very rare, maybe twice a year at best, in a GOOD year).

Chat a bit, and I get suckered into volunteering again (sadly, my life is that BORING that doing work on a Friday night may actually be more interesting, although I admit being smiled at when you are ugly as I is worth a bit).

So long story short, I get a pity date for good behavior (I think that is what it was, haha). Charming enough I get a few months sort of light relationship out of it (no living together or seeing each other every day routinely, but more than the occaisonal meetup).

Everything seems to go smooth as could be, it seems for once I met someone who had zero interest in messing with my head, and was actually mature! I even chalked it up to her being old enough that she outgrew being an idiot like all past girlfriends (I've only dated 18-24, my oldest previous matchup being me = 27 girl = 24 (after meeting her = 21)). So passing along swimmingly, heating up, and then she drops a bomb on me... she doesn't consider me a serious date!

I mean, it didn't come out like that, it came out as "blah blah blah... We have so much fun together, if only you were old enough to settle down." or something along those lines. Of course, at first I just kept joking, until she basically made it abundantly clear "No, this is a fling, I'm not looking for anything serious yet, and if I was, it wouldn't be with you."

Now alas, our normally brave and happy-go-lucky hero had his heart shrink three whole sizes once he heard this. Of course she hadn't played head games, she wasn't interested in getting in my head (just into bed!). And in general, everything started getting skewed from that point on. Further questioning revealed it wasn't even my looks (okay I'm average, not quite quasimodo like I profess to be), but simply that my age somehow made it impossible that I could marry someone and start a family. Despite all evidence to the contrary (even by her admission).

One thing of course I never mentioned to her was anything about money, so that might have contributed to it in hindsight after what happened next. I did however mention numerous times my interests in kids, no more bachelor lifestyle (which had and has been pretty boring for me personally anyway), and general ways I matched everything she should about an ideal man.

So anyway, moved past it, continued about a month after that, didn't push things because that is not the way I do things. Despite being a little uneasy, still gave it the old college try, and ironically she started liking me more! Until...

... I have to go ahead and pull out all the stops and do something over the top romantic. No strings attached and all that bizness, but I was having fun, and it seemed like an enjoyable thing to do, and those couple of days were VERY fun.

The next week it was over of course. Apparently she was so convinced that she wanted to fall in love that she decided it was time to move on and get serious. Unfortunately, she was afraid she was starting to like me too much and didn't want to make a mistake with someone she couldn't be with for a real relationship. She showed me off to her friends and all (and after the first jokes we got along, but I'll admit I'm not the best in a crowd), but she could never imagine taking me to her parents (a younger computer nerd to haughty upper middle class types, pshaw!). Said she needed someone who could take care of her and raise kids with... at this point I was so on the edge of heart break I could only get out "Just believe me, you'll have nothing to worry about with me... ever, you gotta feel that by now."

Basically she didn't, so after a couple days more of what I will term 'fling breakup sex', I basically exited stage left and let her go on.

Three weeks later (I reasonably believe it didn't start earlier, I'll give her that much benefit of the doubt) I'm basically off in workaholic mode again, and she messages me (we talked maybe once or twice a day since the breakup as sort of friends I guess, I can be an amusing chatter at times)... she found some 38 year old middle manager type and by her account seems happy, so that pretty much is the end of the story. I did pry a bit (hey I have a right to be pissy, especially if I'm labeled immature regardless of what I do)... apparently the age-gap only applies one way, girls towards younger men! A similar age gap between her and her new beau doesn't seem to phase her.

So that story pretty much marks the fourth time I was dumped or indirectly dumped by someone. So far the reasons have included:
1. My ex who abuses me wants to get back together and I can't say no cuz maybe he has changed!
2. I wanna try being a lesbian (man I must really have sucked!)
3. I wanna date the cooler jock that we hang out with who is funner to talk with (maybe cuz he don't have to listen to your constant bitchin!)
4. I'm starting to like you too much, but you are too young to ever work out long term.

As you can tell, by this point our daring dashing leading man is pretty jaded, and thoroughly convinced by the old line of 'nice guys finish last'. So what will his next thrilling tale conclude with?! Who knows, but we may be about to find out!

Coming soon, the venture again into the scary and predator filled jungle of online dating (through craiglist, yikes!)!

-----

Comments on level of detail I should go into, anything that would be funny, random ass stories of your own, etc, are more than welcome. While I expect to be the brunt of the joke, misery does love company, so come on in, the cornflakes are warm!

[chesapeake]

People always seem to view relationships from the ending rather than across the breadth of the time together. Think of relationships as being hired as a new NFL head coach. The situation is almost never perfect. And, no matter how good of a run you have, you're going to get fired in the end. Most of the time, at least,

It sounds to me like you were hired as an interim coach by the last woman and, despite putting up more wins than losses by the end of the season, she simply was looking for someone else to run the team over the long run. Sure, you deserved better, but 1) it sounds like you had a good run; and, 2) you probably learned a fair bit about what you want out of a GM in your next team.

Sports is always a great metaphor for life :)

[Izulde]

This thread delivers already. :popcorn:

[Kodos]

You should have tried an onside kick in that last loss.

[Galaxy]

Great stuff!

[samifan24]

I would never try online dating but I must admit I'm interested in hearing your stories about it, Dino.

[SportsDino]

Ha, the sports analogy is PERFECT!

I'm like the assistant coach who has only been in the league a few years, but has a brilliant offense, steady defense, but not enough experience to know whether I will pan out or flame out! I get the job because the previous coach was a total dunce (playoffs?! ... I mean marraige?!, you wanna talk about PLAYOFFS?!) which was literally true, she had finally finished off a marraige for good about two months prior to meeting me (divorce started way before that though, but as in, totally over with no more nothing state + two months to get to me).

I'd say I put up an 11-5 to 13-3 season after the preseason firing, only to get fired before playoffs started because she got a chance at her dream coach (lets call it an overrated version of Bill Cowher because he looks vaguely like him, lol). I had to be fired before I won the conference or god forbid the super bowl because then the fans (and any potential kids) wouldn't let me get fired and she would be stuck with me for 3 years minimum!!!


I think there was a big enough gap that I wasn't a rebound boy, but she clearly wasn't playing the field. I think I got onto the practice field because she has a soft-heart and wanted a cuddle buddy that seemed harmless and kind. But I can understand a girl having a different concept of a plaything versus a husband, its well within her rights, and she did give me like a months warning that it was the case, I just have the very bad habit of hoping I can overcome any odds, and I think I overestimated my cleverness in this case.

My one concern is that I seriously considered telling her that I was more well-off than I pretended to be, but I have a VERY STRONG problem with people being interested in me just because of money. I've been a poor dude most of my life, still live a poor lifestyle (my money goes towards productive gadgets and stocks)... I project a sort of 'capable-independent' level of wealth, but give off every signal that I don't come from money (I don't) and hide every possible signal that I might have earned more than is normal for a computer geek my age (which is still a pretty good living for any woman to accept IMHO, unless they are a gold digger in which case it filters them out).

I do wonder if the money would help with the whole settling down and meeting the parents hurdles, but I'll never know really, and won't change my strategy unless I find it necessary to.

So I guess my target GM is one that wants me to be hired 30 years, win multiple championships, and gets me the players I want for my system. With a side of super sexy of course.

-----

I am probably obsessing more about the ends of relationships than the regular season, its tough though. i believe in the second and third seasons I screwed up enough games that I didn't deserve to make it on my end as well as the girls (but hell I was learning), with the first and the fourth though I've felt cut short and powerless. I wasn't perfect, but this last one I did pretty much everything you were supposed to do, but I can't change my age by about 5-10 years unfortunately. I did pick up some tricks I'll use again though, to enumerate them in RPG magic spell form (yes, should not let women read this thread, I'll never get laid again, such a nerd):

- Spell of Romantic Getaway: completely stuns opponent, causing massive spirit bonus, with +50% to burning passion, -100% to opponents inhibitions, with a good chance of getting them to consider your relationship on a different level (which hopefully is a good thing next time, instead of a 'oh no, I better bail before it gets too serious')

- Witty, Cocky Blast: Amusing antic with a slight touch of slapstick deprecation to bring you down to earth at the right moment. Gets out your highlight strengths, makes you appear vulnerable and humerous, all at the same time. Do not overdo the cocky, this has been documented previously on FOFC. This is adjective form, not to in anyway be confused with the noun form of cocky, you gutter dwellers!

- Spell of Persistent Positivity: +50% defense against anxiety/depression/baggage from past relationships. Done correctly similar result as seen in the movie 'Yes Man' (things just seem to go right if you assume there is no reason for them to go wrong)

-----

I don't know what the symbology of an onside kick would be in the last loss. I'm afraid I needed to force a turnover, the ball was in her hands and she was running out the clock (at least I felt so). However, I did notice she was starting to crack up near the end... I don't necessarilly regret anything I did, I had a great time, but maybe if I caught a lucky break or tried something bold in a different way either before, during, or after the last week... I might have had a shot.

She did keep in touch very regularly in terms of phone/IM, it only let up after she was a couple months into her next relationship... mostly to avoid confusion as she is trying to get along with someone else and I wanted to move on. I think for the first two weeks after she didn't have anyone else in mind, and she was dropping hints (or maybe just taunting me, :lol: ). In the third week after we formally called it quits (as in a couple days after breaking up but still not leaving each other alone)... she started to mention wanting to get back in the hunt, and found someone fairly soon after that.

So maybe onside kick woulda worked, its hard to say. It could have happened in my first girlfriend where I think she wanted me to beat the hell out of her ex boyfriend, but it backfired on her when I dropped her as soon as she cheated (I have +5 resistance to sob stories from someone who had sex with another man recently) and she ended up stuck with just one man after her, and one she couldn't stand at that.

After breaking up, that is the time I'm least likely to do anything. I got a strong rule about not being a whiny sore loser (in that respect, whining on forums don't count!!!!)... so I wasn't mean to the last girl during that post-game period, but she would have had to come into my house and be buck-naked in front of me to catch a hint that she wanted to be together. The closest I came to thinking it was possible DURING that time was when she wanted to go out to a restaurant/movie near the end of the second week as 'buddies', first time we had really met face to face after calling it off and she was way too gussied up and talkative to be hating me at least.

Extensive analysis after the point were she was too far gone to be captured (of course the only time anyone ever thinks straight) of various talks and that event indicates I probably coulda had a really good night if I decided to go with the onsides kick. But I unfortunately took the 'buddies' line too literally and didn't accept any post-drive-home invitation. It only came once and I joked about just being 'one of the girls now' and being a terrible slumber party guest. Despite that being an awful joke she laughed, but I didn't follow her up, and I think she was too nervous to be any less subtle. I of course am a stupid MORON who sometimes obeys the rules way too often, even when said rule doesn't really exist and if it did she would want you to break it anyway. Which is why I usually have trouble with women, I think they want you to bend/break the rules of their little games, and they don't realize a game theorist like myself loves to completely mess with things and not respond the way you would expect, or would actually try to win the game as designed (which is often impossible, similar to women!).

So anyway, it was like a day later she started moaning about 'god I need a man', a couple days later when she asked me advice for how to pick up a man (like I'd know?!), somewhere in there she had me play a Q&A game about what we liked about each other (but mostly naughty themed I noticed), I think at the peak of things she asked what I was doing one day and about another movie and I actually had a work thing I already scheduled. Next day she was 'on the hunt' and within that week found her next dude (I believe she is still with him, boooo).

I dunno, considering how desparate I am now, I wished I at least tried to jump on some of that (cause I really had nothing to lose after all), but it is so out of character for me to do so. So fast forward to now, and I'm actively on the prowl... (I distracted myself with enough work/sidejobs to get over women entirely for a bit)

So a teaser for the next entry:

Have any of you out there, or do you have any advice for, dated a woman with a small kid before(lets say, oh about, 3 and a half years old, exactly!)? And what do you do?

[SportsDino]

All right, I'm actually typing a lot tonight because I'm waiting for my online dating partner to get on the net! Oh I'm pathetic...

Before I get to her though, I guess I could go through online dating horror stories, since there are plenty of them:

- The Girl Who Only Wanted A Pirate:

Talked to a girl for about three weeks. I had fairly open standards at that point because I was still just a noob, but overall she seemed nice online. I mention there is a jazz festival thing going on and we pretty much mutually are interested in going to see it together.

She also had a thing for pirates, to this day I'm not sure if there is any signifigance to that, but its about the only thing I really remember about her was a lot of jokes about pirates.

So anyway, agree to a meet up, being the perpetually unafraid person that I am I am meeting her solo, but she is brining along a friend with her. Fine, fine, although I've found besides being a security measure, you also need to impress said friend in order to get anywhere. You can have the girl hook, line, and sinker, but if the friend thinks you are a dud on first impression, your boat will sink faster than you can think.

I get there and things fall apart pretty quickly. For one, her roommates are two guys and a girl. Upon arrival of course its a GUY who opens the door. And of course she is not ready. And of course I'm told to wait downstairs a bit while she finishes up. And finally, although I have no proof, my subtle mind-reading abilities indicated he had slept with the girl, and he was putting out massive vibes of being pissed that I was hanging out with her, combined with competing for her interest, combined for trying to play like he was cool with it and calm and smooth.

So she comes down, she is taller than me (she was 6'1"), which of course she knew about, but her initial reaction was a bit of shock. This was either my height or my face, I sent her a pic, but eh, who can tell. Quickly covered it up, but I didn't pass the initial sexiness check, so I really needed to get a good hit in a hurry. Started talking about things she liked and got her in a chatty mood, I was sort of in a hanging out sort of position (lot of space, letting her walk about getting ready, waiting for the show to start)... guy mentioned earlier starts trying to enter conversation, so I let him (gotta be friendly after all).. start cracking jokes, everyone laughing, she is almost ready.

Guy leaves his seat that he was in pretty much the whole time and starts following her around. In a spot he thought I couldn't see he gives her a little pat and she gives him the 'not now' look and a little angry... so that jumped up the awkward level but I act like I don't see.

Finally escape the house, talking about jazz, getting fired up. Her friend had arrived prior to leaving, I certainly failed her looks scan and she didn't hide her disapproval. Along the way to the show tried to break the returning wall of ice, other than a few lucky strikes it wasn't going well. I'm not exactly the worlds greatest conversationalist to begin with especially at this point, but eh, was giving it my best shot.

Got to the jazz festival, thought it would help, unfortunately it was an act that wasn't all that good, and they wanted to wander away from the show. That pretty much blows what little of the plan there was. While walking to no where the friend ratchets up the questioning, and then the target (pirate girl) brings up a more sexual topic (I was still a virgin, 21, yes, shocking...). I basically have no info to share, and before long it became obvious that target was looking for a pirate to make her his wench. Totally not into it at that point, although she is pretty nice looking (probably a 6.5, I'm a solid 3 at best)... and don't think I was getting the offer because she had maybe a '5-7' guy at home (not sure how girls grade things obviously) and I was striking out on most topics related to the main question. And her friend didn't like talking to me, and target eventually stopped trying to include me, because even though I could chat her up well alone, I didn't bulldoze my way into their girltalk.

So my only advantage gone, we split up, and she bragged about finding her pirate (I can guess who it was) and we don't talk again.

Lessons:
1. You can learn a lot from the first 'date'. If they flinch even after they should already know what you look like, upon first sight of you in person... no matter how quickly they cover it up afterwards... it is an uphill battle from there.

2. Having chatted up someone in a less hostile environment first (not necessarilly online, maybe this applies to in person interaction but just not dating them interaction)... helps. It will give you some forgiveness and make them a little more likely to put some effort into it, rather than a cold meetup... so there may be value to delaying a 'date' with a girl you can interact with and REALLY want in order to win the war. I'm sure Sun Tzu could bring up something about high ground here.

3. With online dating the 'U + her + her friend' date is common. Besides a safety measure, you must get BOTH on your side to consider it a success. Perhaps with the right level of cocky and funny you can get BOTH to love you and get a threesome? Further research required....

All in all, the 'Girl Who Wants a Pirate' summary, with statistics!!!

Girls looks: 6.5 (6'1", blonde, sort of prissy/athletic look with a hint of naughty slut)

Action achieved: 0, not even holding hands or pity handjob.

Duration: 2 hours?

Online Work-Up: Three weeks

Awkward factor: 9/10, you can't date someone who is rooming with a player. I think I only got an honorable mention (or bit of attention) because he had the personality of a cardboard cutout.

Position in the rotation: Prior to first girlfriend, third online girl met, ever.

Major skill learned: Question for personality/physical compatibility BEFORE getting the girl addicted to talking to you, because you will be wasting your time if the meetup fails, they drop you like you don't exist! Understandable really.

[SportsDino]

All right, so a lot of other stories I sort of defuse from afar by never ever meeting the person to begin with. You may lose a decent shot with this sort of filtering, but usually that person is not worth your time to begin with, so here are some things I usually try to match up through idle chit-chat to weed through the online dating mess.

1. bolt at the first sign of them wanting you to spend money on anything, or joining a website. That is not a girl, it is actually a 40 year old guy trying to scam you!

2. If she seems sane and you are somewhat far along, figure out how she handles arguments. Either by getting in a playful argument on a topic, or by asking questions about how she handles people who do not agree with her. If the answer does not mesh with what you think of in arguments, imagine doing it for the rest of your life! Weeds out controlling bitches.

3. Probe for what she is looking for, and make it clear as soon as she stumbles on something opposite to you. If she bounces back with 'oh well that is no big deal' you are doing well, if she blows up... better she do it now than later. Particularly on the physical criteria, some girls say tall, certain look, athletic, blah blah blah, but if they start bending once they actually are talking you can usually tell what she is looking for in the nature and amount of her bending. To use height as an example, if she says her range is 6'0 and up and you say 5'10, and she says she's dated 5'10 then you have a pass, if she backs down further than you and repeats the point, she is worried you'll get pissed and bail and she is trying to downplay her own requirement.

4. Downplays as previously described usually happen after you are starting to hit it off. I'd argue it may make sense to get some of the lighter dirty laundry out of the way during that phase, avoids it coming up when you are trying to impress, avoids the landmine hitting during showtime (which is usually more expensive in turns of money and more importantly time), lets you guage her interest level and character in regards to how much she will work to snag you, and may score you points in the longhaul if you show mutual willingness to be flexible. It works against the whole philosophy of shopping like a shallow person of course, but even if you don't say it, the moment they see you the game is up anyway, so there is no point in lying unless you think you can deceive a one night stand out of it. I'm not that clever!

5. Drug-use, because drugged up bitches be crazier than normal, unless that is your thing (in which case knowing about it is a shared interest, haha)

6. Where they want to be in the future, because it indicates usually what they are looking for in a guy (serious, fuck and dump, etc...). Avoid it becoming a pure career question, you are not hiring her for a job, but if she has no ambition at all in various fields she probably is just looking for someone to leech onto.

7. Look for intolerances. If she offends easy then something you do will easily offend her in the future. Another bitch-filter.



I could probably come up with specifics, but those are some general ones I tend to hit on with every person I talk to online. A lot of the best filters are situational, they say something and you realize it might be something that annoys the hell out of you, just probe around it lightly in a way they can't tell what answer you want (so if you are willing to forgive it because they have pretty eyes you can do so without them knowing).

Does anyone have some ideas for things I should be asking out to further decrease my number of psychos? I'm picking up a lot of my ideas sadly thru limited trial and MUCH error. Luckilly I seem to get away with making multiple mistakes per girl so I learn at a decent rate.

[Galaxy]

Great stuff.

What are your "combine" stats?

[SportsDino]

[SportsDino]

No clue how to make a joke out of combine stats (well without bringing up some really gross stats probably, ha)... so I'll pass on that for now.

Figured I would enumerate my online meetups that were romantically intended to some degree. Note 'just be friends' is code for a more passive 'go on a date', which I don't mind since I'm the patient type... unless they are pretty clearly in a friends only mood which has never been the case of those who actually progressed to meeting (otherwise why is your picture swap important, and why do they bring up the 'love' themed discussions persistently?).

Going with the order of 'proximity to banging' roughly, because i am that boorish:

1. Girl who wanted a pirate. A solid 0.

2. The Girl with the Busy Schedule.

4 for looks, skinny, redhead, only girl so far I met who was not two years younger than me at the time (both 21). Probably my best pure online chat partner, over say 5-6 months, including through my first girlfriend and start of the second. Eventually she moved on, was clear we were not going to heat up.

Always was a friendly chatter, when I was available both at very first and then a little after my first ex she really pushed up the sexual chatting. Which for me is not cybersex, but just talking about sex at all, with a slight hint of teasing throughout.

However, the meetings were a disaster overall. Maybe three... the first she was very late, but we had a decent lunch and managed to talk. The second was a random encounter where we seemed to get along well and even got me to a flirting stage (which I really didn't do at all at the time), but was called off early because it wasn't planned and we both had to get somewhere and had no time. The third was at her house, but was the dreaded 'plus friend' meeting, where you need to impress both in order to have a shot.

The third meeting took place during the 'lets be friends' with my first girlfriend, and I honestly considered my first girlfriend as 'do not let past buddy' and this girl who I been having hot chats with as 'potential date' (and acted consistent with that, as in being willing to give the romantic signals to this girl, but the girl who would later be my first I blocked off most anything resembling an advance).

The big sinker was this girl left a lot of hints that she wanted to hang out for an extended period this third time, and it was supposed to be a party like event, so lots of stuff to do, everyone all happy, etc. The party disappears at the last minute, because people are stupid and can't schedule for garbage, but we go ahead and meet anyway, and completely unexpected she has a friend there.

Her friend is 30! And smart enough to dismantle just about everything I said during about a 50 minute conversation. Turned it into a job interview, and was so aggressive at one point the target girl was trying to deflect her off and maybe even get rid of her. Way too overprotective, and i guess she thought she had to protect a young girl from this savage PERFECT GENTLEMEN, or maybe she had a real aversion to dorks and wanted to blow things up.

Eventually I run out of ammo, I'm still a newb at handling people at this point, I've had all of a dozen encounters around people my entire adult life (I was a reclusive hermit before this, the definition not of shy but of SILENT). I was doing well while I managed to crack jokes, and managed to sneak a couple flirts in (each followed by a big offensive by the old bag)... got some smiles and laughs (never from the older girl, including one that cracked her up with a spit take, only to have her get pissed!)... melted target girl at one point.

But then I got battered around the 40 minute mark. It turned of all things to dating experience, I had zilch at that point and was honest about it because I'd already said as much to the 21 year old girl, which was never an issue before... but 30 year old villain just got mean. In the way that women get mean while still seeming nice, that sort of vicious smiley kind of mean...

So ya, I couldn't joke long about being a 21 year old virgin and after a long battle, finally turned defensive. Apparently this was the target girls best friend so I really needed to pass, but I was pretty much exhausted, and once I lost my smile, my ugly looks and lack of stereotypically attractive male qualities became all I was judged on. Ten minutes of me floundering was enough for the rest of the day to end earlier than expected. I did manage to never crack and lash out, maybe that was the intended purpose of the grilling, but basically by the end it was just a polite withdrawl and rout from the field.

A ways later I had been through and over my first relationship, during which of course I at least was loyal cuz that is the fool way I was raised. Afterwards this girl starts ratcheting things up again, particularly now that I actually had something sexual to talk about.... gets real interested in dropping hints about meeting again. I get around to taking a hint, something starts to form up for another encounter in a romantic format for once.... and of course the guy she has on again/off again been flirting/fucking with apparently steps back into the picture.

Now the law of my love life is that I am a solid 3 at best, and get points for pure wit and honor. Women drop me (and presumably I'd venture they do this to most men) once they have something they find shinier about to drop into their shopping cart. So suddenly the chat-line goes cold, a meetup gets delayed, and only because she was stupid enough to share her online journal with me do I manage to figure out why. Later on we are back to chatting and its no big deal, but essentially wacky player lost some other piece of tale he was playing... comes back to her, they are back to whatever.... she apologizes and all that, I say nothing existed anyway not to worry, she still keeps playing the sorry act beyond what she needed to which indicates to me that for her it was a split decision at least and I probably had a chance in there somewhere.

Eventually things quiet down in terms of chatting because she is 'happy' with this guy that keeps leading her around. I read her journal because it was just in my routine reading by that point, but talking to her directly dries up. Eventually I'm with girlfriend number 2, about two months after other dude starting going with her, he of course ditches her and she gets all emo, and then moves to another state and I lose track of her.

Another 0 for action (well we can put down a 0.5 if you count being very nosy about sex)

I guess a couple lessons learned from all that:
- The whole date with a friend really sucks ass, although i guess that is sort of the point. I'm pretty sure it only happens to guys who the girl is looking for a reason to stay away from, so they bring in a pinch hitter to try and get a hit.

- On the scale of importance, the 'nice guy' is less important than the 'hot guy', even if they have enough evidence about the unreliability of the latter. A hot night or two with that is worth more than anything you can offer, and the more the girl talks about wanting a serious relationship more than anything, the more likely she is to make that swap. Loyalty aside, what all that blather means is they wish one of the guys they were crushing on would stay with them, so they complain to joe loser about how terrible it is and get it out of their system, so that joe cool doesn't have to listen to it, they can swoon over him, and they can mutually get laid. Girls don't realize that they themselves are probably just an interim fuck-toy for joe cool, but i digress!

3. The Malaysian Student, or The Really Long Distance Relationship who wants a Friend? Ya Right!

A tiny girl (sub 5 feet), at least a 6, maybe an 8 as far as Malaysians go (she was very cute, but I am probably deducting points for being too small and I do tend towards some of the stereotypically white features in my preferences despite being a mostly ethnicity neutral guy). Very skinny.

This was a long time chatter (maybe one and a half years overall, with gaps when I was dating I didn't notice until hindsight). Very easy to talk to about all sorts of things, but was always very friend oriented although it drifted into more curious romantic talk from time to time (not flirty, always more academic, although since I tend to speak too much, probably a hint of naughtiness in there although i wasn't trying). Did not try to date at all, she mentioned early on she was in a serious relationship, and was just interested in a friend.

It wasn't till later on that I learned she was in a long distance relationship with a guy back in Malaysia. So post-analysis (and what happens next of course) leads to high correlation with her only talking to me when she knew I was free, and her 'curious questions' probably tended more towards fantasizing than I thought at the time.

Awkward level pings at a 7 because of our last real encounter. After which things quieted to a whisper and then faded out. Prior to that we met at a lunch and then coffee, then a campus movie, some other event, and then just listening to music. Always strictly friendly, out of maybe 6 times about 5 occurred during my second girlfriend, and I'm faithful to a fault. The first time was before meeting the second gf for the first time, and had zero indications of any sort of romantic interest, so I felt it was just 'friends' easily enough.

The seventh time we met I was somewhat distraught and depressed by breaking up with my second girlfriend. She had more or less dumped me, and after a routine chat with the malaysian, it came out that such had occurred and she started talking to me a lot more. We chatted occaisonally and met in some neutral fashion (including once with my second girlfriend) during my entire relationship with gf 2, but very rarely. So prior to meeting lucky number seven, a lot of talks, and she poked into my relationship softspots repeatedly during that time.

Eventually I stop moping and decide to go see a comedy to cheer up, malaysian girl invites herself, I say why not, and we go watch a movie and I walk her back to her place. We keep talking about random junk, so I stick around a few minutes, yada yada...

She's bored for the night so she brings up some music and just wants to chill, I had nothing better to do and didn't feel like studying, so why not. After a while she starts chatting about relationship stuff again, and I'm like: "Bah, I'm so tired of thinking about it now, she never really was into me for sure to begin with... I'm certain its over, I might as well worry about finishing off the term and forget everything else."

Then she starts the 'my relationship sucks' line of discussion from her angle, how she's supposed to marry someone in something not that far from an arranged marraige, and that she hasn't even seen him since the holidays and spends most of the year alone, and won't be going back to malaysia for another couple of months.

I'm so dazed and confused by being depressed over gf 2 I don't even notice myself stumbling into this minefield. But I blunder along and before too long she is next to me on the couch and later makes her move. I shrug it off nonchalantly, and... how to put this... she grabs the junk.

This is followed by me spazzing out slightly, and then like a dumbass I pull the 'good friend' routine and question how she feels about malaysian guy. I think at the time I was in the mode of 'if she really wants it, fuck it all, give it to her', but my brain is too damn cautious. I go all over the board from defensive, to preachy, to flirty, to hugging/comforting her that she's not a bad person, to giving her a backrub, to logical, and then nonsensical, give her the frickin 'fuck me' stare and then flinch off it into shame.

Essentially my moral compass was spinning like a top, but I couldn't do anything with a person I had a reasonable concern would be marrying another guy in a few months. I was alternating wildly between probing for anything that was a sure enough sign to just go reckless, and trying to convince her to stick with her man... ethical roller coaster, real nerdy I know.

The end result is absolutely nothing happens. No kiss, no inappropriate touching (other than that initial WTF), maybe at most some distant cuddling and maybe tipping on the line with the massaging. Mostly I was keeping her from touching me I think, but was sneaking some contact myself to places I thought safe and not 'crossing the line'. I'm 100% sure if she touched me even in a 'safe place' like a back caress or a non bawling her eyes out hug which was actually a real hug... that I'd have lost it and not looked back. The end result of the night is her saying 'You are a good man, too good.' and me leaving like a chump.

Only met her once after that, was invited back to her place once over chat but I asked her if it really was 'okay', stating nothing but implying that 'what the hell is gonna happen if you get me alone again?'... so she backed out of that (again, damn!). Did meet her for one last dinner before she left, and other than having a penpal in asia for a while, that was pretty much it.

Action: 1/10, that one stroke hand job was the most sexual activity I would have for the next three months.

[SportsDino]

4. The Girl Who Wore Pajamas

I swear someone else recently had a story about a girl who weared pajamas on a date. We should probably take both of these stories and compare them in detail to figure out what a girl having a date in pajamas really means.

Looks: 5, again if you don't like your girls with a little padding, probably drops to a 4, but she was actually very athletic, just not skinny. Very cute in a pleasant way though, not magazine hot, but probably ping an 8-9 on my internal 'faces I could love' scale. Just radiated kindness which I find very beautiful.

Awkward: 2/10 or lower, always a perfect gentlelady when we talked or met. But our last encounter did involve her in pajamas for most of it, wtf?!

Talked off and on with her online over a few months. The timing of our last meeting is RIGHT BEFORE my second girlfriend, by maybe a week. After girl mentioned in number 2 was clearly out of the picture, and all the people on my chat list claiming to only like hearing my crazy voice and not interested in me for dating at all. After the pajama party things started to die down because I was hanging out with what would become girlfriend number two a lot, and pajama girl never lined up a time with me again, and eventually found mister right I presume.

So the only thing of interest is the last meeting, so I'll skip right to it. To this point we had talked a lot, but it was always very G-rated. We both were single, and I got in the habit of treating her in a sort of cutesy-friendly light-flirting way. Fit her very much (I'm nothing if not adaptive), although at times I think she had the impression I was too conservative, in that she seemed to want to go naughty, but didn't know how, and thought she might scare me off. I do Disney-style romance pretty well though in my opinion. Before this, maybe one chat got heated, and it happened maybe 2-3 days before our last meeting, and I never said anything directly romantic, but I did show the open-minded and somewhat rogue-ish side of my nature, and if she didn't have a strict bed-time who knows where it would have went in that chat. She did catch me soon after and insisted in hanging out in person so we scheduled up the first night we both were not doing anything (it was move-in week at our school).

So we meet kind of late, it is a Saturday or Friday, so she is intending to stay up late for once, yippee. We talk about random stuff, I check out her giant dorm room, joke a bunch, just your normal friendly hanging out. She had actually been in a sort of soccer game somehow earlier that day, so she felt kind of sweaty... but we chatted a bit anyway.

After a point she got interested in showing me her horrific soccer booboos she's accumulated over the years. This leads to me politely holding her hand as she says 'feel how this is broken', and having to touch her knee. Nothing all that gross and not easily visible, but I think she just wanted to get me to touch her (I've since learned not to keep so much space between myself and girls, another one of my overly polite mannerisms and hints of my isolationist past).

So I feel her up, I mean, feel her injuries, we joke, she flirts and I say some cutesy retort, and then she says "Oh I need a shower!". And I don't know what to say about that, and I guess it was pretty obvious that she was going to get cleaned up at some point. So I'm just like 'okay' and she dawdles a bit getting ready, I think mostly trying to make sure I wouldn't go anywhere... I think she was conflicted between wanting to be clean and ladylike around me and having to leave me for a moment to do so.

This is where you whip out the cocky and funny (mostly the cocky) and make sure she needs a shower, I'm not certain of it, but I have a feeling in my second brain that it might just have worked.

So I'm stuck in her place, alone, for a while, but I swear it is the fastest shower I have ever heard of a girl going through. She is back in a few in a robe like thing, and this leads to another awkward moment. She hides behind some rather limited cover and is changing in the room with me there. I of course am looking away, and no I did not cheat, but if I did I'm sure I would have seen something... but I was basically looking at the wall, made sure to pick one without mirrors even, and making small talk about her decorations.

Somewhere in that period she flirts again, among the jokes of how I better not turn around, and when I'm being abnormally quiet, a hint that I must have seen something to be so tongue tied. For a really cutesy G-rated person, I felt she was stepping it up fairly rapidly. Eventually she is done, I turn around, she is in, of course, pajamas.

Other than that, its an interesting night, but no, nothing happens. I'll give the action level a 2/10 though, the sexual tension was pretty thick, and I didn't leave until really late. The biggest moves besides always finding another reason for me to stick around was falling into me twice while playing DDR on some slippy gamepads, and during the movie, laying on the floor, pretty far apart (damn my space thing), but random motions, readjusting the pillow arrangement which just happened to put us potentially a lot closer and with my dorkiness, just closer [gosh, moving to the furthest edge].

Closest point to breaking down was during the credits of the movie, which is about the only time I've ever experienced sitting through a non-entertaining credits roll, her looking at me way too much, in between shifting around and half getting up to mess with a couple things and ending up knocking into me and somewhat positioned well within that space gap a couple times for a moment. The best one was rolling to face me at the very end about to turn it off altogether, reaching over me for the remote, with that soapy/shampoo smell that girls somehow have right in front of me. If she kept smiling during that motion instead of putting on a serious 'I better turn off the movie' face I would probably have kissed her while she lingered in front of me a bit way too long.

This of course occurs again with a different girl later on. In this case I geek out, and then hang out another 4 hours, including the aforementioned clusmy crashing into me where I was way too helpful to getting untangled cleanly. With this girl I'm doubtful it would have led to sex, but she was perhaps the most into me that any of the online girls ever were. It just didn't get too far because both of us were on our best behavior, and I think I hurt her by not making any move or responding more to hers. So scared to piss her off, I'm sure I pissed her off.

Lesson learned: always go for broke.
Bad habit acquired: going for broke with any girl I met since, including ones I probably shouldn't have. Any online girl i met after this point involved a relationship, kissing, or at least a naughty touch.

5. The Emo Poet who liked her Drink and Drugs too Much.

Probably a 4, but I grade a 5 (my forgiveness for weight is higher than the average I'm assuming). About 5'8", brown hair, her weight is sort of like me now, overweight, but more stocky than round, actually less than how bad I am at the moment since I got a gut and she didn't.

Talked online forever, maybe 6-7 months, before meeting. More an artsy pen pal than anything, majority of it overlapped the end of my second girlfriend. Really intended just as someone I liked to talk to about writing which is a past-time, not every person you meet needs to be a potential date, since it is rare you can find anyone to talk about every thing you like to do, and it was nice to know someone who understand how to structure a sentence [I don't].

Biggest lesson: Even the nicest girls go bad after too much alcohol/weed/drugs... major red flag, since it is so personality warping. Probably same for guys of course if not worst.

Met her three times, this happened to coincide with hanging out a lot with the person who would be my third girlfriend (who was of course not available though she hated who she was with)... so not sure if more could have happened because once girlfriend three pounced on me she forbid me from hanging out with this girl because I made out with her.

Awkward level: 3/10, actually got along very well, both sort of mellow personalities, and we could talk about anything very comfortably. However, wasn't with her very long, and I could tell we were skirting some dangerous territory on the horizon (she was certainly depressive).

Action level: 3/10. She convinced me to drink a little, which is easy enough, then tricked me into drinking a lot, which is something I can't handle. When I was dizzy out of my mind she had me dance to counteract the room spinning, and eventually we made out with some nudity (lets call it PG-13 rated encounter if it was filmed, although the censors would slap an R on it for a touch of boobage, seriously silly system!). That I consider this a 3 tells how little XP I have, although the scale is exponential on that chart (so a 10 is like 2^7 times more sex than a 3).

At this point I seriously doubted whether it was possible to have a girl who was just a friend, unless she was firmly and happilly attached to someone else. If a girl likes you as a friend, it seems on a whim she'll ramp it up to seduction if you act even remotely charming.

6. Second girlfriend.

3 on looks (as in purely unattractive but at least kind, to get a 2 or 1 you need to start looking evil). Overweight, maybe 5'2", dark brown hair, nerdy girl. 8-9 on brains, and we seemed to get along well for the most part because we were both insanely shy.

Talked online for two months, then sort of fell into dating for about 9 months. She was not interested in a relationship at all, but I got confused while watching a movie as buddies 'she leaned too close to me, thats not fair', kissed her, and so 9 months of confusion followed. So I guess one thing about online dating is half the time the girl doesn't even know what the hell she is doing there in the first place. They really can not be looking for anything at all.

This was post pajamas girl, so I was probably too primed for subtle cues, however, since she didn't want nothing at all and STILL dated for that long, I stick by my theory that overly sweet/nice girls try to seduce dudes by setting up situations where it is all to easy for a guy to make a move, but then they get nervous and try to hide any sign that they really like you during that date.

Weirdest thing from this case is she was a wannabe bicurious, I don't know if she ever went beyond kissing another girl... but ya, basically dating a girl very young in college I think they expect to keep exploring and sleeping around... so not a great time to only be thinking in terms of serious relationships.

Awkward level: 10/10, being told after the first kiss that it was a mistake was not a great start. What followed was a continuous series of her ramping things up and then throwing on all the brakes to try and kill it back down, examples:

- After first kiss play it cool, hang out two more times with nothing happens (damn my incredible self control, didn't even flirt with her, I respect women too damn much)... third time we are doing a sort of study thing (advanced math beyond my pay grade, but my natural genius made me useful study buddy) and she starts getting close multiple times with me backing away smoothly and carefully. Make it most of the night like a gentleman, then bam, finish up with the books, I turn around for a moment and turn back she jumps me and makes out an entire night. So much for just be friends.

- Action Level: 8-lite.... she's nervous about sex like you wouldn't believe, yet she initiates the first fooling around. Her inhibitions prevent intercourse, but did advance to oral activity (where is that XKCD baseball metaphor chart when you need it?). Awkward again, to the point I think to her it really was a friends with benefits sort of arrangement.

- She takes me to meet her parents, but yet doesn't 'love' me? Mixed signals across the board, any time (except the last) I figured her for not really interested, she would do something completely the opposite.

7. First girlfriend ever.

6 towards 7 on looks, at least she got a lot of attention from guys... but I'm not generous enough to rate her an 8. Short, dark brown hair, black girl, ranging from curvalicious towards too skinny.

Talked online for about 3-4 weeks, probably the best first meetup (ballroom dance lessons partner, I thought that was particularly smooth, haha) when we did meet. About a month of light contact (one a week), then a month of constant contact (every day almost), then her basically seducing me like crazy (before that I was still playing the 'just a friend' card myself full tilt... no clue what i was doing, such an idiot!). Duration of the 'relationship' was less than a month.

This girl qualifies on the online psycho end of the spectrum, sort of nympho variety... I don't think she slept with everything that she met, but I'm pretty sure she did with anyone that stayed around her for long. I was feeling this early on when I was meeting with her, so I was positioning myself out of the way of that sort of attention since I knew she was the female version of a player.

The biggest lesson about online nympho psychotics is that they are constantly looking for a hotter score, so your chances with them are purely related to how much attention she is getting elsewhere. Right before the start of our fling, during the middle, and of course the end, she was about to bail for some other guy... so the caution is once you know she is that type you might as well expect it and don't delude yourself otherwise. I had an excuse in that I had zero XP and way too trusting a nature.

So to finish off the post-mortem:

Awkward factor: 7/10, always a whirlwind, although compared to every relationship except my last one, I was probably at the peak of my 'game', but her variance was all over the place.

Action level: 10, she is a nympho!

[Izulde]

I love this thread.

[Swaggs]

Good stuff.

If I could make a suggestion, maybe break things up into more posts or use some boldings or underlines to help break up your larger posts. Don't get me wrong -- enjoying the dynasty, but it would make it easier for people with attention issues, like me, to read. :)

[JeeberD]

Awesome thread, keep it going... :)

[SportsDino]

Well I recounted most of the online past, so moving into the present with my next post, coming up soon. This is tougher because its not hindsight, this is real-time screwing up and awkwardness! So you will inevitably start the facepalms and 'you dumbass' as you see me make a fool of myself.

If this dynasty does well, I will be marketing t-shirts and action figures (okay not).

I'm just finishing up an experiment for my other hobby project of the moment (space station sim, 'conversation sprawl' system... ironically a lot of text chatting at the moment in my personal life so at the very least I'll get a personal touch to the video game, lol, its harder than you think to program a robot to talk like a person, ha!).

[Kodos]

Affirmative. Indeed, that is difficult.

[SportsDino]

All right, so the current campaign (coming soon to playstation and xbox, since dating games are all the rage apparently!):

Put something on craigslist which I took down now, and an undisclosed dating personals site. Here is the lineup as of this point:

1. 24 year old, with a 3.5 year old little girl. Currently the starter since she has the most experience with me, haha.

Met her for all of an hour in rather bad circumstances (I said something that annoyed her and THEN she wants to meet, because 'I'm so pissed off I don't care if I impress you right now'... not a good start). Still, pulled out the win in overtime, well it was a very un-datelike meeting, and I was completely off guard, so I didn't impress, but did not epic fail.

We talk a lot, very laid back and we match humor well, but she gets defensive easily (a red flag). The kid is adorable, have not met her, but her mommy is proud. Certainly something complex, never dated anyone with a kid before. I love kids though, so I'm not gonna chicken out on account of that.

Potential (estimate): 70, I like her, but not enough face time to see if we'll mesh. She is a bit wilder to my overly brainy, which is fine and fun, but the blow ups already are hazard signs. Also despite a very bad reason to meet, we have met, but haven't since due to a variety of bad luck. I do wonder if I'm being put off deliberately. She would probably qualify as a low 4 in terms of looks (note these scales are my estimate of what you guys on average would grade, not my particular desire level, some of my 3's I find cuter than my 6's, although 9/10 are reserved for universal bangability and equivalent on both scales).

Overall: 20, it seems heading for an epic meetup, lol. And apparently there is an open threat that she 'WILL seduce me and I can't resist'. How you can get that through chatting, probably indicates she edges on the too wild side, but it should lead to an incredibly hilarious story for this dynasty! Not sure when/if it will actually occur of course, but I stated I can last a night without giving in (my insane willpower).

------

2. 28 year old, no kids (I think). Just started talking, not enough data, but seems to want something serious. Still just at opening emails, and only a couple days on the fire.

Potential: 40, very hot to me, maybe on the general scale a 5-6, but something makes me overrate her personally, LOL. Still, to early to know anything.

Overall: 5, she hasn't made a mistake yet, and she is very hot on my draft board. Her emails aren't quite well written, but she may be non-native English speaker, and some people's chatty emails are written much worst than their natural talking ability.

------

3. 32 year old, no kids. Already worried, but apparently I'm in her 'range'. However, I get the feeling again it might be a 'date-able' range but maybe not 'serious' range, will need further probing.

Very early, but have chatted with her. Very smart, a little feisty, kind of aggressive in her questioning, but that is no problem, and she seems capable of handling the curveballs that are my responses (I tell it like it is). Doesn't seem to blow up, and she shows some of the signs of downplaying when she says something and I don't fit, which means she wants a shot. Also assertive enough to stand up for herself when I bring up a negative on her, and I think she is getting that I'm flexible but honest about what I like, after some initial rough edges.

I think once we calibrate our speech, hopefully with repeated talks I think we will hit it off. Again, my maturity is pretty high, so I think we can hit it on an intellectual level like I did with my last situation, but will I trigger the right emotional connection is still in the air. Also her defenses are pretty thick, I think she's sick of the players, which works in my advantage, but will need to be patient. I also need to resist the urge of throwing up landmines at any chance I can, especially early, I don't want her to waste her time if there is something she won't accept (yes I'm probably still slightly aching because of the age here)... but too many negatives in a row might make the conversation go sour, especially when she has shown signs of flexing when I've tried to be difficult.

Potential: 45, talked enough to know we might have personality compatibility (her profile reads almost exactly like how I would have written myself, which is scary). However, I want kids and she's dropped hints she's doubtful, but I'm leaving that issue in stasis because I'm satisfied with what she said. However, I don't know if I will make her physical cut (depends on when we meet, I'm killing my gut at about 2 pounds per week). She is interested in being cautious, so this might be a good backup strategy, a good bench candidate to develop for a while, lol. If our physical meetings happen to coincide with me being in ideal shape, and by then I got a good personality read on her, it might be easy to pull off a victory. She does seem to have the most stability/confidence in her head, but so did the 33 year old... shoot. Looks are probably a 5, but I'm highly interested.

Overall: 15, she knows what she is doing. Will probably be slow progress though, but that is fine, since I do technically have a starter I should give a shot too (but one that just hints of instability which I just can't handle unless I know it won't be a killer). By the time I get past candidate three's defenses I should understand whether target 1 is worth it.

-----

4. 28 year old, no kids. This is not a dater, purely a 'for friends' situation, however girlfriend number 2 and the malaysian who jumped me were the exact same and I never thought would be anything other than buds, so you never know. Met her back around the same time as the first girl, online anyway, no in person contact (or pics).

This girl is a PhD student, and very smart. We can get into deep talks, however, she does have that slight reek of academia, a bit of haughty book smarts who is quick to follow the paths that have been often tread before and doesn't realize I make my money off my own models. Interesting debates, but sometimes underestimates me, or gets snobby and doesn't realize not knowing some term some stuffy prof made up doesn't mean I don't have a better understanding of the problem than many people do.

Last night she chatted with me when she was drunk. And she turned it to relationships if tangentially, I know my sciences, lol, but ya this is highly unlikely.

Potential: 10, nothing official happening, and no clue on her physical attributes. Fun to chat with, but she has a superior side that probably won't be compatible.

Overall: 15, for a friend, okay, not quite very close, but always nice to have someone to talk about crazy stuff about and get it out of my system.

[SportsDino]

Would like to repeat the question about dating ladies with kids, I really have no experience, if you do, share ya story! Especially if it includes a valuable lesson of what to do, or not to do.

[Izulde]

Beware of shoplifting the pootie!

[SportsDino]

Number 2 is either completely mental or a Nigerian scammer with a lot of time on their hands. I guess if there are over a certain number of grammatical mistakes I'll just decline immediately!

[SportsDino]

Line's dead on all but #1, and that is on life support it seems (puts up so many blocks I'm reasonably certain I'm just a secret backup QB by now, and obviously I want to start).

Realized my looks are even more subpar than usual, so gonna regroup, go on a health craze, and maybe clean myself up in such a way that I can pull off an older business man look.

[SportsDino]

Apparently there is a new nigeria scam where someone pretends to be a girl at a dating site. Either all the beautiful women are in nigeria on vacation and I'm just paranoid, or they have some method of making money off it. I don't waste the time to find out, but it is kind of annoying.

In other news, #1 on extreme death life support but still talking to me after a nuclear meltdown.

Got a new girl though, #5, which is simply awesome. Such a ridiculously crazy personality match, and no mention of Nigeria! I was giving up hope for a moment there.

[Young Drachma]

So this gets to the first wacky love question:

What is necessary for relationships with a giant age gap to work?



I think the "giant" number is a matter of perspective. It's easier for the guy if he's older and somewhat career established and she's coming into her own (3-5 years) but...beyond that and you start to get to a place where she's still figuring stuff out and you're ready to accelerate things. You do get those 22-24 year olds who think they have to be married immediately once they're done with school and provided you want that too and find one, then that might work (though I'd be wary...) but that being said, a lot of the younger ones really expect you to "have it together" because they perceive your age as something which gives you a leg up on them.

Whereas someone closer to your age might realize what happens in your mid-20s when you're single and unmarried, they've probably dated more post-college than they did in school and as a result, tend to have a bit more permissive perspective and might be less inclined to drive in traffic, as opposed to getting off at the first exit they find.

So I dunno. It really seems to depend on the person and how they're wired, more than specifically the age thing. I mean, it's possible to get the same fish from the same brook, if you keep fishing for the same thing. But that's maybe where it might be helpful to 1) fish elsewhere and 2) use different kinds of bait.

Would like to repeat the question about dating ladies with kids, I really have no experience, if you do, share ya story! Especially if it includes a valuable lesson of what to do, or not to do.

The thing with dating women with kids is...there's a small possibility that you meet someone who is lights out and just happened to have married early. Or that she's on the cusp of greatness and just needs a good coach.

(Damn, I'm really pouring on the metaphors here...)

Anyway, I think it really depends on what you want to do. You can make some general assumptions about the nuts and bolts of how the process will go, she might be savvier or at least more able to communicate what she wants. She might also be less interested in the stuff other women will, but will naturally want to see you as a stable character unless she's just playing the field after having had a kid and a marriage/serious relationship breakup.

The first time I dated anyone with kids I was pretty young (like maybe 21 or 22 tops, I don't recall now) in the Air Force and she had six years on me and had been divorced. It was something of a disaster on the surface for a myriad of reasons. But if I had to boil them down, they actually nothing to do with the kids and everything to do with their mother:

1. Different levels of education.
2. Different levels of motivation.
3. Different levels of experience.

Sure, the sex is nice and all that. Especially when you're young, she's older and more experienced. But save for that, it's far more important to make sure that whoever the person is, is someone you'd have been interested in anyway and just happens to have kids. And at first, I'd ask little to nothing about them. It's too soon, you're not dating them and while they're important to her, the fact of the matter is...you're not initially looking to make a connection with them.

I'm sure others might disagree with this line of thinking, I just feel like when it comes to dating someone with kids, you've got to create your connection with the parent first and then, after you've established that you can get further. But honestly...I only think that becomes important if you've solidified there's a future in it. Otherwise? Seems like much to-do about nothing.

So I dunno. I think you just have to think about it pragmatically and approach it similarly to the other dating you do, because in the grand scheme of things, it's all the same. If anything, you should like her more than maybe you would some ordinary girl because if your MO goes beyond sex, you'll have to face divided loyalties (if she's a parent worth her salt) and so, that's going to complicate what's already a pretty complicated game show anyway (dating, that is.)

[SportsDino]

Ya, I probably danced too much in the kid zone, stepping back from it is probably a smarter approach.

Both numero 1 and 5 have kids. I don't have any problems with it, and actually like kids, but I've been very hesitant how to act. Mostly I'm settling into the strategy of obviously answering the parenting related questions in a way that makes me look good (which is easy, since I want kids and always got along with them well, and know what I would expect out of being a father)... but not really prompting anything too much in that direction.

That seems to be doing all right, but it is certainly a touchy situation. And more difficult to get a date, lol.

My ultimate goal is beyond sex, I've heard from others with my money I could do more than two women at the same time... takes the thrill out of it. And i'm too much of a dork to actually do such a thing (strong morals, I get pissy making money in the stock market after all!).

[Young Drachma]

Ya, I probably danced too much in the kid zone, stepping back from it is probably a smarter approach.

Both numero 1 and 5 have kids. I don't have any problems with it, and actually like kids, but I've been very hesitant how to act. Mostly I'm settling into the strategy of obviously answering the parenting related questions in a way that makes me look good (which is easy, since I want kids and always got along with them well, and know what I would expect out of being a father)... but not really prompting anything too much in that direction.

That seems to be doing all right, but it is certainly a touchy situation. And more difficult to get a date, lol.

My ultimate goal is beyond sex, I've heard from others with my money I could do more than two women at the same time... takes the thrill out of it. And i'm too much of a dork to actually do such a thing (strong morals, I get pissy making money in the stock market after all!).


Online dating is really only useful to expand your base beyond whatever you've got initially. It's a lot easier to get over the initial awkwardness of being weird, strange or whatever else people might perceive of you once you've 1) got more allies and/or 2) go places with likeminded people. That can be a challenge, but..I've always found my confident level peak when I'm around people who I know get me, have spent lots of time with me over a period of time to where I don't worry whether they like me, because I get they do.

Stuff evolves and that can change, but..in the context of meeting someone, all it takes is you being on your A game long enough for someone who might be a similar boat to be around or that complements you better to work well for a spark to happen.

Random story...so I won tickets to a concert last week. Debated all week about whether to invite someone else. One friend who likes the same artist couldn't go, Thanksgiving and all. Save for that, no one was really on the radar to take. My gut kept telling me over and over, I should go on my own. That was the idea ringing in my head.

So finally, on Saturday night of the show I didn't take anyone. I went to the coffee shop for a few hours down the road from the theatre so I wouldn't have to find parking. Went down there to get my tickets in advance of the show and went back to sit down at the shop for another hour before the show began.

The dude barista saw my tickets, asked me if I was going to the show tonight and I said yeah, he just makes conversation no biggie. I sit down and five minutes after I'm back, a cute woman walks in. She makes her order. He asks her his standard shtick, about what she's up to tonight. She said she's going to the concert. He asks her with who, she says "with myself."

He points at me and goes, "that guy is going." She looks over, smiles and I mention my ticket story (I'd already bought a ticket prior to finding out I'd won two...I sold one, no biggie. But it was sorta funny that I had 3 tickets and just me to go with.) and she was like "I just bought one! Shoot."

So I figured that convo might be the end of it. But instead, she gets her coffee and sits down at the table next to me and we end up talking, I close my laptop and I didn't want to assume we'd go to show together, but figured we might. It was close to 9, the time of the show and I said "do you need to go?" And she said, "we can go whenever. Did the guy buying your ticket call?"

Uh, ok. So I guess we're going together.

During the coffee shop convo, we mentioned another show playing Sunday that we apparently both thought of going to see, but we're sure we wanted to. We checked to see if there were tickets and there were. Then we just let it go.

During the first set of the first band, she leans over and goes, "we should go to that show tomorrow night. I'm just really digging the music and I haven't been to a show in forever. So we should do that."

So we did the next night.

Now nothing at all happened and even though the people we met probably thought we knew each other better than we did, because we appeared that way, in the end...it was just two concerts with a girl I just met and that was it. It was fun and awesome and something out of a movie, but...it's quite possible that we'll not hang out again.

This isn't the first story I have like this in the past 30 days, where my gut was like "go alone and just enjoy yourself." Then I did and made a new friend.

Point being? Do things you enjoy and go places where people you might enjoy talking to will be. Craigslist, OKCupid and pay dating sites are fine and all for varying degrees, but they're not nearly as effective as online dating was saying six or seven years ago and you'll spend a lot of money, time and effort chasing people who probably aren't going to be the right fit.

Even when they are, there might be a bevy of factors that prevent you two from connecting in a significant way and well...you're clearly better than that.

Dunno what that's worth, but...I figured it'd be worth sharing with ya.

[SportsDino]

I dunno, I'm not really the sort that inspires random meetups. The few dates I got from people who haven't found me online all saw me in some activity I'm extraordinary in (poker, soccer, volunteering) and got curious.

I could go around doing things outside the norm alone and hoping, but in any room of say ten guys, I'd be the 8th or 9th most likely to get random conversations (from girls or guys)... I don't look evil or mean, and certainly don't act that way.... but I do have an aura of shyness/quiet, seriousness, and my looks are incredibly plain to poor.

Couple that with the expectation that guys make the first move, and my tendency to not do such a thing, and I get very few girls to even give me a shot. Including a number who would no doubt be thrilled at the chance.

[SportsDino]

So update to catch up on Numero #5:

So the specs:
About 5'6", blonde, maybe 4.5 looks. Gets along pretty well with me, similarities in conversational style/expectations/traits... obviously different life experiences, although we share a lot in common on what we like as well. (She's a fantasy/sci-fi nerd like me) Easy to talk to, if a bit shy, but I'm not one to complain about being shy!

After #1 I was a bit bitter about being led around online all day and night, so toned down the caution a bit and sparked a meeting fairly quickly, and reduced the amount of online contact a lot.

Meeting (coffee at lunch) turns into an entire afternoon sort of walking and talking around town. Some light browsing at artsy stores.

So far, so good. Personalities mesh, she's not shallow and probably grades me higher than a 3 on her personal scale (as I grade her higher than a 4.5 on mine). I don't do the smooth, confident player routine that most girls far for, but this one doesn't want that (would probably scare her off anyway) and my loveable goofball nature seemed to go over well. So I don't feel like I have to do anything dumb to impress, which is always a bonus.

Whenever I would make eye contact she would hold it and then blush, always a positive sign. Kept extending the day until the last minute before she had to go (she is a single mother)... and hopped on the chance for another date right away (ye olde dinner and a movie).

I was very careful about keeping my space, like I tend to do, and I think it made her nervous a couple times that I wasn't doing anything at all physically... and wasn't super flirty. But I was pretty smooth about it and didn't shy away when she would discretely try to lean closer... its arguable but I think it will earn me points being a little overly polite the first meeting. At the very end she snuck in a hand squeeze which was about the only actual contact other than a handshake at the start (yes I'm a dork).

Gameplanning now for the second encounter. I got to keep up my high win percentage after all.

Tweaking the strategy towards slightly more flirty/physical contact, but still avoiding the more aggressive moves like swooping in for a kiss (don't want to get intercepted by a fist after all). After being a little distant but very gentleman like I certainly think that a subtle switch to giving off signs of attraction will play stronger than if I had started early on.

Key goal is to show enough interest that she doesn't start to worry about her chances (I try not to play games, lol though I describe this like one)... but at the same time don't scare her into thinking I just want an easy score (I don't) or that I'm coming on strong as an act. That was a disaster with the first girlfriend, was so into her that she thought it couldn't be real, not to mention gave her a lot of power to manipulate me with.

Basically I'm trying to tone down how much I like #5 to a level somewhat below what it is. This way if she turns out to be secretly crazy in a way that violates the 'Hot/Crazy Line Principle' I am less invested. Also I think with her level of caution she has (certainly not a player and out of the dating game for a decent amount of time)... it will make her more open to my offense since she can't predict I'll take the easy openings.

I would love to tease her into coming after me on the second date somehow near the end. I'd like to start the small stuff, but if I can get her to lead up a larger show of affection, well then I can probably get away with more than if I had started it! I am somewhat evil after all, I deserve a little kissing... but I think if I'm the one who tries I'll get away with a nice peck... but if she starts it I might get a nice make out session. I'm getting too old to wait two months anymore, haha, impatient.

[Sun Tzu]

I'm sure Sun Tzu could bring up something about high ground here.

Well...I did meet my wife online.

[SportsDino]

Doh, meant Art of War, ha!

[Young Drachma]

Re gameplanning the 2nd meeting: Don't.

Just play it as it comes and adapt your strategy based on her cues, rather than plotting like it'll go anything like the first time. Women are tricky that way sometimes and if it's not abstract enough for her to settle in, you might overplay your hand, on the basis that you think you know what cards she's likely to play.

[samifan24]

Hahaha I wish we could drop the sports and gambling metaphors in this thread. It's confusing enough to follow all this to begin with without the metaphors!

[DaddyTorgo]

I dunno, I'm not really the sort that inspires random meetups. The few dates I got from people who haven't found me online all saw me in some activity I'm extraordinary in (poker, soccer, volunteering) and got curious.

I could go around doing things outside the norm alone and hoping, but in any room of say ten guys, I'd be the 8th or 9th most likely to get random conversations (from girls or guys)... I don't look evil or mean, and certainly don't act that way.... but I do have an aura of shyness/quiet, seriousness, and my looks are incredibly plain to poor.

Couple that with the expectation that guys make the first move, and my tendency to not do such a thing, and I get very few girls to even give me a shot. Including a number who would no doubt be thrilled at the chance.

just FYI - you're not alone in this

[SportsDino]

But if I don't gameplan I just know she's gonna stomp all over my 4-3 defense!

Anyway, its not too deliberate or planned out, more just a set of behaviors I was avoiding because of my 'gentleman complex' and uncertainty whether she liked me or would respond positively to them. In the past I've always been criticized for going too fast, of course you never hear the complaints of when you go 'too slow' you just never have anything develop at all.

Again, probably overthinking, and it probably sounds borderline manipulative, but I assure its nothing too devious or elaborate. More trying to control my timing in these early stages and avoid critical mistakes I've already flubbed up enough in the past.

Anyhoo, another successful encounter, she is VERY shy and we ended up with a good hour and a half of doing nothing, but did get to the intended checkpoint (make out). All signs are good, but there is not really any drama to put into the dynasty so this might peter out into a boring happy ending.

Certainly well adjusted on the hot/crazy scale, great personality, likes me... might just be my odd luck coming into play here that the second girl I meet turns out so well. I do think that otherwise the probability would have been for a lot more weirder encounters, online dating seems a pretty messy and harsh place, worst than the last time through (although maybe I'm just further from the target demographic now).

Biggest problem coming up is breaking it to #1 who has been talking with me since the start of this situation. I know I'm not technically committed, but my whole personality can't juggle more than one girl at a time, and really wouldn't want to.

About #1:
Violates hot/crazy, and shares some traits with my third girlfriend that were dealkillers. Namely, hot tempered (blows up easy), intolerance (disrespect of opposing viewpoints), and general apathy (I'm an idealist). I don't exactly have an IQ test or anything either, but seems close minded, and certainly disinterested in most things I could talk about (which is certainly not a requirement, I could put most political scientists or economists to sleep, that is how much I could blab).

She is funnier than #5 (so far, but she's also had more chances and is less shy), but blowing up at me when I'm joking was putting me on guard, and I don't do that. Also we basically have fought on chat/phone and we've hardly met... you have to be pretty prickly to manage that with me. So all in all i don't see it working long term, and since that is all I care about, I need to call it off. This would be the same whether I had another person on the line or not... although I admit its speeding up the decision.

Anyway, hate doing it, but it'll probably be the last controversial story I can get into this dynasty.

Any suggestions on how to go about 'lets just be friends?'

[Young Drachma]

But if I don't gameplan I just know she's gonna stomp all over my 4-3 defense!

Anyway, its not too deliberate or planned out, more just a set of behaviors I was avoiding because of my 'gentleman complex' and uncertainty whether she liked me or would respond positively to them. In the past I've always been criticized for going too fast, of course you never hear the complaints of when you go 'too slow' you just never have anything develop at all.

Again, probably overthinking, and it probably sounds borderline manipulative, but I assure its nothing too devious or elaborate. More trying to control my timing in these early stages and avoid critical mistakes I've already flubbed up enough in the past.

Anyhoo, another successful encounter, she is VERY shy and we ended up with a good hour and a half of doing nothing, but did get to the intended checkpoint (make out). All signs are good, but there is not really any drama to put into the dynasty so this might peter out into a boring happy ending.

Certainly well adjusted on the hot/crazy scale, great personality, likes me... might just be my odd luck coming into play here that the second girl I meet turns out so well. I do think that otherwise the probability would have been for a lot more weirder encounters, online dating seems a pretty messy and harsh place, worst than the last time through (although maybe I'm just further from the target demographic now).

Biggest problem coming up is breaking it to #1 who has been talking with me since the start of this situation. I know I'm not technically committed, but my whole personality can't juggle more than one girl at a time, and really wouldn't want to.

About #1:
Violates hot/crazy, and shares some traits with my third girlfriend that were dealkillers. Namely, hot tempered (blows up easy), intolerance (disrespect of opposing viewpoints), and general apathy (I'm an idealist). I don't exactly have an IQ test or anything either, but seems close minded, and certainly disinterested in most things I could talk about (which is certainly not a requirement, I could put most political scientists or economists to sleep, that is how much I could blab).

She is funnier than #5 (so far, but she's also had more chances and is less shy), but blowing up at me when I'm joking was putting me on guard, and I don't do that. Also we basically have fought on chat/phone and we've hardly met... you have to be pretty prickly to manage that with me. So all in all i don't see it working long term, and since that is all I care about, I need to call it off. This would be the same whether I had another person on the line or not... although I admit its speeding up the decision.

Anyway, hate doing it, but it'll probably be the last controversial story I can get into this dynasty.

Any suggestions on how to go about 'lets just be friends?'

Umm...just have a normal conversation once more and then just don't ever get in touch again. Especially if you haven't met before, there's no obligation to put her down easy.

If you wanted to say "I don't see a romantic future in this, but we could be friends," I suppose that'd be fine, but...you might get cursed out and it could be awkward and I dunno if there's a point.

[SportsDino]

Well ditched #1 entirely, wasn't hard, just wait for her to jump on something I said for no good reason and say "ya, enough of that, I scram now".

Dynasty seems pretty much over though, #5 is an awesome lady and I'm having a blast. Met her kid which went well (If anything the kid seemed the least nervous that night). Spending time with her is easy, and she seems to want the same things I do.

Dug past her shell and having a lot of fun... she is a little cautious, but unlike most previous women she seems interested in showing me off so maybe I've finally found someone who realizes I'm an awesome catch (in my not so humble opinion).

Probably wait till sometime next year to drop the whole 'recession profiteer' bombshell on her. At the moment all she knows is I'm a computer geek with a few side projects, and that I always grab the check. Never said I didn't have money, although my shabby clothes, average uncleaned car, and lack of expensive tastes generally gives a low wealth picture.

Course I've never heard of an infatuated girl ever breaking up with a guy because she finds out he has MORE money than she thought. I'm not too worried, and by now I know she is not a gold-digger at all.

So, pretty much end of story for now. I guess if the worst happens I'll have to bump this thread!

[TheMeat]

Just wanna say that I don`t usually venture outside of my FoF hole on these forums but I got pulled in by this and read the whole thi ng. Great story, you are a funny guy Dino and you remind me of a younger me, before the hot+crazy`s of this world chewed me up and spit me out. Now all I do is treat women badly. But now I get way more of them and they`re way hotter (being heavily tattooed helps greatly I think). I`m not too proud of it but hey, I got tired of being walked on. You give me hope that maybe good guys do win, I`m rooting for you SD.

[SportsDino]

Ha, I don't know if you would call it a win. I picked a girl that I think is hot and drives me crazy, but almost all guys would walk right by and never notice her. Course most girls no doubt think the same of me (I'm no Calvin Kline underwear model that is for sure).

At the end of it all, as with everything else it comes down to what you really want and what you are willing to give for it. Given my happiness level, apparently what I want is a shy nerdy mommy who gives as much as I do. Its also very nice to have a lady who wants you without any hesitations, something I've never truly found before, even the last older lady had that slight reluctance to her.

I mean its still early, and there is caution (on both sides, I still am being a pansy about money for a few more days)... but I don't feel like I'm hitting an arbitrary wall and having to dance around it.

[SportsDino]

Well, i didn't run down the soccer chick story cuz it came and went so fast, but basically:

- Hot: I think she'd rate an 8/7, potentially higher all made up (athletic, curvy, pretty face)

- Potentially crazy: As to be described.

The long story (which is a short story), is:

I religiously play soccer once a week (sometimes twice a week depending on the season). I'm viciously competitive though out of shape, I often look like a dud out there, but sometimes in a game I can just take over and dominate the entire field for a few minutes (as in literally me running around/over/through the entire other team). This girl is on a competing team and we are having an overly physical game.

I attract the interest of the girl because despite running one guy into a wall, and power-backing my way through another who tried to stop me, when I was charging at her full speed with the ball I spun away and totally ate it to the ground (banged myself up good) because I won't hit a girl. She spends the rest of the game pushing on me, tangling me up, at the worst of it she is on the ground locking her legs in mine (I'm standing) so I can't even move. It was hilarious (though frustrating) and I happened to have some good one liner jokes that day which I can't remember, but they just made her more crazy.

Anyway, I can respect a competitive spirit, and after a close loss we end up hanging out at the bar and their team was there and I get a round for anyone I obliterated that day (and the girl for cheekier reasons). End up with a date with her, not really sure why, probably the cocky and funny routine actually worked for once (thank god for FOFC).

However, when I cleaned up and went on an actual date, besides the fact she half stood me up (delaying it till later in the night), apparently I don't clean up well because I wasn't all that interesting to her it seemed. i label her potentially crazy because she had the audacity to outright check out other guys during our supposed date, as well as showing some of those game-playing signs and conflicting stories/opinions, so even though the night ended ambiguously I pretty much let it starve out. Since she only gave me one half-hearted phone call days later I think that was the best route to take.

Maybe I biased this somehow, I see a hot girl in person and I tend to react negatively by instinct from all the bad attitude I've received in the past. So maybe I confuse 'playing hard to get' with 'not interested, bitchy, or psychopathic'... but given the rarity of actual interest from the barbie doll types to begin with I don't think I'm missing much.

Also I am not fond of lying, and particularly bad liars (if you are going to do something, at least do it well!), I have the terrible ability to discover lies/emotions when people are hiding something, and the bad habit of manipulating the conversation to expose it when I get bitter. I figure if she couldn't get a straight story on something insignificant and easy to see through and back out of, that I couldn't trust her on more critical things.

So I think with that story we have pretty much my entire dating experience on the record in detail. Minus all the times I say 'hi' and the girl says 'go away' of course, which are too vague to even recall.

[GoldenEagle]

You should have tried the naked man with the hot soccer chick.

And what about the empty haunted house and the first million?

[SportsDino]

Soccer chick might have liked me to be aggressive, she seemed plenty turned on when she was humping my leg during the soccer game (well thats what i'll call it, where is a ref when you need one?!). I do think she just went with me on a sort of adrenaline high, but I wasn't cute enough for the calmer moments of a movie/bar.

I traded the overly large house I was renting to impress my third girlfriend for a more sensible bachelor pad, a big empty house is very depressing. First million is a milestone I hit earlier this year after being flat broke and in debt about 3-4 years ago. Both are relevant only in that money can't buy happiness, and life is a roller coaster full of ups and downs, so you need to dust off and get back at it even harder. I've made big mistakes but I've rarely failed to learn at least some of the lessons from each of them (some needed a little more pummeling to sink in than others).

[jeff061]

Well money's relevant in that once you get to a certain point it's nice to be able to focus on other things (relationships). It's good not to have to worry about paying bills.

I recognize I'm at that point, I just find it very very difficult to focus on the real world. Work's always clicked, real personal relationships baffle me. In a really "unhealthy and I ought to seek help" way.

So I enjoyed reading this because our thought process is similar, as is how we analyze things. Just much different in our struggles and weaknesses.

[Flasch186]

I hate to say this but I think you ought to put up a menu of looks for yourself. One plain and then say one in some different get up's so we can advise you on what attire would work for what situation, IOO. I also have a hard time buying the 'looks' issue for yourself and think that esteem might actually be having a larger effect on everything. If not pics of yourself due to anonymity issues perhaps you could find comparable looks but that would be simply a representation of what you think you look like versus what you really do look like. I wish more people viewed themselves like in those Windows 7 commercials where they self-reflect.

[SportsDino]

It is probably more self-esteem than anything my whole rating myself a 3. It is more laziness than anything as far as wardrobe, I do know how to dress up nice (although I liked it better back when I was skinnier).

But I'm not too worried about it, the girl I'm with seems to adore me, and if that doesn't pan out... well if I get disqualified on looks I'll consider it the girls loss.

[sterlingice]

This should serve as a possible update request. I was sifting through some dynasty reports yesterday evening and ran across this. I'm sorry, but it's a terribly entertaining and fun read and I feel guilty about liking it- the message board equivalent of reality tv. However, I just couldn't help it.

What follows would be some unsolicited advice from someone who rarely gives it or has anything useful and would classify as "blind leading the blind" but I do find some tidbits here and there and thought it might be valuable to pass along among the group of hopeless romantics that I have a feeling most of us on the board are. It's just random notes I was jotting down before I saw the "conclusion" of the thread.

Oh, and in writing this I was struck with how hard it is to write about this and not use some sort of hackneyed cliches or slappy metaphors. I find that it makes it that much more entertaining to read, personally :D

1) Keep with the I'm a poor, practical guy shtick. My wife and I knew a guy who had all sorts of money and he once lamented to us, in all earnest, about how difficult it was to determine if a girl was after him or his money. This wasn't a "woe is me" pity grab but a frank, honest complaint from a guy who was a fairly good and innocent soul who thus had a hard time telling which were the gold diggers and which were genuine. It may make the entry barriers harder but it makes it so that you're only giving second interviews to good candidates.

2) Stick with being a good guy who obeys the rules. Sure, it makes it harder but anything less and you'll be doing the equivalent of "settling". You have high standards and you should stick to them because being picky leads to you being a lot more satisfied if you can get lucky. Pretty much the same as #1- it helps to make the entry barriers higher. You don't have an infinite supply of dating time so make sure you're spending it on people worth spending on.

3) I love the online dating advice post :)

4) No experience whatsoever, but from an academic perspective, I would think dating someone with kids would be fraught with great amounts of difficulty. There's the obvious- damaged goods/"hm.. at some point in your life you lacked some perspective about what will be the most important responsibility in your life and now you're a single parent" stigma (which is not fair in a lot of cases). But we're talking beyond that on just the dating and short term future perils.
* As someone married for almost 5 years but with no kids, I see things differently from a lot of friends my age as they are married and had kids quickly. It seems like this shakes a marriage foundation that wasn't quite all that deep to begin with. I mean, these were good couples but had only been together a couple of years total before having kids and so they're facing this trial by fire with marriage. They didn't quite have their dispute resolution (read: fighting patterns) formulated quite right and when the kid(s) came along, it added an already crazy level of complexity. It's like trying to learn Calculus when you don't quite have Algebra down pat.
* I also saw a friend do what I would consider way overemphasizing the kids- it kindof worked out in the end, but, that was in spite of and not because of including the kids early on. Again, I would think you're dating the woman not the kids and I think there's a reasonable barrier to be placed between date_name, the woman, and date_name, the mother.
* Oh, and there's the one that I saw on the job once where a soon-to-be divorced mom was cheating with a guy (never mind the "she's cheating with me on him but she'd never cheat on me" issue) and it was pretty obvious she just wanted to get pregnant by him so he'd be mantrapped into caring for her.

Man, this also just reinforces how grateful I am for what I have. I was clueless and hooked by my wife before I even knew what was going on but it's not like she's some sort of player at all, either- she just set her sights on me and that was that (well, it's a lot more complicated but you can break it down to that). I'm definitely fit into the naive, doe-eyed, innocent hopeless romantic and I'd have gotten crushed out in this world.

SI

[SportsDino]

Well, not much to report. Getting along very well, we have fun together but she is also dependable when I'm feeling the stress, which is nice. All of my past girlfriends, even during the lovey dovey early stages, couldn't resist a kick in the ribs when I'm down for even a moment, so its pretty refreshing to have someone with a similar personality to mine (build up people rather than tear them down or self obsess).

I kept the focus on her mainly, but luckilly me and the kid seem to get along naturally. I just be myself, I really don't have much trouble with kids in general... so it wasn't as scary as I thought it could be.

But ya, no major problems. I got a little fussy about some stuff recently (a week of nothing going according to schedule and her throwing my weekend party plans into a stressful mess got me on edge), but she reacted like I would have... understand the other person is under pressure/annoyance, defuse the situation by being supportive and just making the other person feel good however you can. All the fun stuff aside, its nice to know your flaws can be accepted as well as your strengths.

As for money, she was a bit surprised, but it hasn't really changed things. Maybe she is a little less likely to worry about money when we are out is all. The poor guy routine is a winner in the long term in my opinion, especially if you are self concious about that problem.

As for dating someone with kids, sure there are difficulties, but I don't think its any relatively worst than any other issue. Biggest issues I guess are:

- Scheduling is that much harder, three schedules instead of just two.

- Attention, you just won't get as much of it while the kids are around.

- Attention again, the kids will likely expect some from you. They hate being ignored!

- Disrupting the kid's situation, they will probably act weird if they are not used to mommy dating. At times they might be easier to scare or get frustrated, other times they will like you a lot, other times they will be nervous around you... requires patience, need to understand that they don't have much control of the situation or emotional maturity, so overall they are just scared and confused, not angry at you or something you yourself should be scared of.

- Attachment, I'm particularly nervous of the kid starting to like me and the mother dumping me. Kids are pretty innocent and loving, it does not take all that much for them to start caring about you. I'd say to avoid meeting the kids until you are on sure footing with the mother, maybe even if she is the one trying to initiate that contact (I am nervous I started interacting with the kid too soon, although everything is working out fine, I know for a moment I was feeling attached to the kid but very uncertain about how far the dating would go, and to me that is a bit scary).

Overall I'd say focus on the mother, and maybe even defer the kids somewhat after she wants to involve them (but not to the point that it appears you want nothing to do with kids). I'd certainly say my success is because the lady is very interested in me as an adult (and I must say I enjoy the adult interests, ; ) ), and the fact that I seem I could handle the kid is just dodging a bullet, not something that increases my allure. It is something that can completely sink your chances, but I think for most ladies it probably won't increase it all that much, so little value in overpromoting the point.

Same for dudes, if I had a kid, I'd probably be more interested in the foxiness of my dates, and then when it comes to the kids it would be a pass/fail test. Incredibly important, but I'm sure there will be a lot of decent mothers out there, but very few ladies who I could tolerate (or could tolerate me).


But anyhoo, I'm hoping for a relatively boring, but happy, story from this point on. I'm getting too old for too much drama!

[DaddyTorgo]

cool - good shit SportsDino.