Synthetic ice: anyone skated on it before?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Probably a thread for the neighbors up north or in Europe. I'm considering a purchase of a synthetic ice rink and wanted to get some feedback from anyone who might have used it. Anyone know anything about it?

[Flasch186]

a whole rink?

[Butter]

Man, you are serious about getting a hockey team in Kansas City.

[RainMaker]

Less glide and you need to use your legs much more. Really good for exercise and training but not something I'd recommend for competitions. Still, for a casual skater I don't think it's a big deal.

The biggest issue is what it does to the skates. You have to sharpen them much more frequently as well as replace. So if you're renting out skates, your costs there will be much higher.

So I guess what I'd say is it depends on what it's being used for. If it's just open skates like birthday parties and weekend warriors, it's nice. If you're looking to host competitions and such I'd say no. It's not as nice as real ice but probably a bit better than a really sloppy public rink.

Mind you my experience was a few years ago so perhaps the technology has gotten better.

[Flasch186]

no zamboni....that is an issue.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Less glide and you need to use your legs much more. Really good for exercise and training but not something I'd recommend for competitions. Still, for a casual skater I don't think it's a big deal.

The biggest issue is what it does to the skates. You have to sharpen them much more frequently as well as replace. So if you're renting out skates, your costs there will be much higher.

So I guess what I'd say is it depends on what it's being used for. If it's just open skates like birthday parties and weekend warriors, it's nice. If you're looking to host competitions and such I'd say no. It's not as nice as real ice but probably a bit better than a really sloppy public rink.

Mind you my experience was a few years ago so perhaps the technology has gotten better.

It would be used for open skating and parties, so it sounds like it would fit the bill for what I'm looking for in a rink. We'd be renting skates, so it's good to hear the feedback on the skate wear.

I do think the technology has improved quite a bit. Most of the sellers are clearing out the old surface technology from a couple years back in favor of a new surface. They stress the importance of a covered area to minimize dirt/dust that can slow the surface down. They also mention regular maintenance of the surface with the lubricant that keeps the ice 'fast'.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

a whole rink?

Probably 40' by 80'. I don't believe that's regulation size, but it's pretty large. Supposed to hold 60 skaters max at that size.

no zamboni....that is an issue.

My wife mentioned this. We may have to rig up a 4x4 to look like a Zamboni just for the whole feel of it.

[Logan]

You been getting royalties from Blu Ray sales?

[Draft Dodger]

I had no idea such a thing existed

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

You been getting royalties from Blu Ray sales?

I wish. It would certainly help with some of the up-front cost of the rink. I'll get the money back over time, but that doesn't make it any easier to write the check.

[Mustang]

I had no idea such a thing existed

Glad I wasn't the only one.

[Mustang]

Oh, and if you are going into the Rink business, good luck MBBF. (Definitely an unexpected business for someone to say they are getting into). :)

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I had no idea such a thing existed

It's pretty incredible stuff. The newest surface that is used (often called Super Glide) has a efficiency rate of 92-94%, meaning that you'll slide roughly that percentage of distance when compared to a similar slide on real ice. Up until the last 5 years, the quality of the surface had been more suspect, but the technology is much better now.

We only have one outdoor rink in the KC metro area and it's only open 5 months a year. There are a couple of indoor hockey rinks that do offer open skating, hockey leagues, and parties. There's a real market opportunity right now to open up a year-round ice skating rink outdoors for parties and open skating. It has the novelty of an indoor water park during the winter in that you could go "ice" skating when it was 90 degrees outside during the summer in addition to ice skating during the winter months. We'd have a roof over the rink, but the sides would be open air unless we wanted to close them off.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Oh, and if you are going into the Rink business, good luck MBBF. (Definitely an unexpected business for someone to say they are getting into). :)

It wouldn't be our main line of business. More of a secondary income on a property intended for something else. Looking to have a draw for families since most of our business will be oriented more to adults.

***joke coming in 3.....2.....1.....***

[Mustang]

***joke coming in 3.....2.....1.....***

You can be in the Super Glide and Super Lube business.

[DaddyTorgo]

You can be in the Super Glide and Super Lube business.

careful - he's competition!

[Mustang]

careful - he's competition!

Kansas City isn't my market. I'm safe. :D

Unless he goes to the internet.. then the FOFC pron wars are on!

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Kansas City isn't my market. I'm safe. :D

Unless he goes to the internet.. then the FOFC pron wars are on!

Ah, so any thoughts on this from your perspective? Didn't realize we had a veteran of the rink wars on the board. I'm guessing it might be a bit more competitive up in your area.

[DaddyTorgo]

Ah, so any thoughts on this from your perspective? Didn't realize we had a veteran of the rink wars on the board. I'm guessing it might be a bit more competitive up in your area.

lol no - he's in the business of making adults...smile

[Flasch186]

and he aint talking about dentistry!

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Ah, different sort of business. :)

[DaddyTorgo]

lol

[CraigSca]

There's a local skate center the uses the fake ice where we live. We went to a party there one time and I have to say it was pretty lame. It was a small "rink", but the ice itself felt like you were skating on really smooth linoleum. Mind you, I have no idea what the surface actually was, though the place has only opened within the past year.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

There's a local skate center the uses the fake ice where we live. We went to a party there one time and I have to say it was pretty lame. It was a small "rink", but the ice itself felt like you were skating on really smooth linoleum. Mind you, I have no idea what the surface actually was, though the place has only opened within the past year.

So not a whole lot of glide to it? Just curious.

I have heard that if it's not properly maintained, it will hurt the performance quality.

[Flasch186]

I'd say that that might be something you need to compensate for...

the 'feel' of the atmosphere. Perhaps having open sides will help but if people think the 'feel' of the overall joint is 'cheap' or 'linoleum' like in presence, that may translate into the person's feeling about other things. So having some really glossy professional stuff around may compensate for that 'vibe' he mentions above. IIUC

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I'd say that that might be something you need to compensate for...

the 'feel' of the atmosphere. Perhaps having open sides will help but if people think the 'feel' of the overall joint is 'cheap' or 'linoleum' like in presence, that may translate into the person's feeling about other things. So having some really glossy professional stuff around may compensate for that 'vibe' he mentions above. IIUC

I've heard that the speed of the synthetic ice is good and bad. It's slightly slower, so people who are advanced skaters may not like it as much. On the other hand, it's actually much better for kids and beginners as the slightly slower surface makes it easier for them to learn as opposed to the natural ice surface. Given that we'd love to target families and kids, it would seem to be a good fit.

We'd be putting up a structure made of brick over the rink, so it won't be a cheap building by any means. It has to fit the design of the existing buildings on the property.

[sterlingice]

So not a whole lot of glide to it? Just curious.

I have heard that if it's not properly maintained, it will hurt the performance quality.

Sounds like something you need to go try out before you buy. You know how salespeople are- they're going to tell you what they think you want to hear to get the sale. It's not like this is a big repeat sale opportunity. What? Are you going to not by your next rink from them if you're not satisfied?

SI

[sterlingice]

Man, you are serious about getting a hockey team in Kansas City.

:D

SI

[sterlingice]

I had no idea such a thing existed

Ditto

SI

[sterlingice]

We only have one outdoor rink in the KC metro area and it's only open 5 months a year.

Crown Center?

SI

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Sounds like something you need to go try out before you buy. You know how salespeople are- they're going to tell you what they think you want to hear to get the sale. It's not like this is a big repeat sale opportunity. What? Are you going to not by your next rink from them if you're not satisfied?

SI

I'll definitely be doing that. We're still several months away from a purchase. I just want to get a feel for people's impressions on it. I'm actually pleasantly surprised that there were this many people that have used some form of it.

Crown Center?

SI

Correct. They would be the only competition from an outdoor rink perspective.

[sterlingice]

In my mind, it'd be perfect out by the Legends. There aren't any indoor rinks that I can think of near there and it fits with the motif of the area. Then again, I'm not much of a business person so I could be all wrong. Zona Rosa area maybe.

At first blush, I thought Overland Park, but I'm pretty sure there are a couple of indoor rinks there and those are indirect competitors so I would try to avoid them. It's not as if there are a lot of indoor rinks in KC either so just placing one out of the way of them would just draw indoor and outdoor customers.

SI

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

In my mind, it'd be perfect out by the Legends. There aren't any indoor rinks that I can think of near there and it fits with the motif of the area. Then again, I'm not much of a business person so I could be all wrong. Zona Rosa area maybe.

At first blush, I thought Overland Park, but I'm pretty sure there are a couple of indoor rinks there and those are indirect competitors so I would try to avoid them. It's not as if there are a lot of indoor rinks in KC either so just placing one out of the way of them would just draw indoor and outdoor customers.

SI

This would be located in the Northland in the Liberty area. There's one indoor rink north of the river towards the state line and that's it.

[CraigSca]

So not a whole lot of glide to it? Just curious.

I have heard that if it's not properly maintained, it will hurt the performance quality.

Right - very little glide. It was basically a bunch of kids and they all looked very comfortable very quickly. On real ice they'd be slipping all over the place. Basically, on the synthetic surface, you give it a good push and you'd stop a few feet later. On ice, you'd be moving for 20-25 feet.

Mind you, I have no idea how and if this particular surface is maintained, nor do I know what surface they bought. I'll assume that the companies that sell these surfaces have all kinds of models - from basic to the cream of the crop. I have no idea which this one was - only that the whole concept left a sour taste in my mouth after trying out this particular version.

[cyril]

We'd be putting up a structure made of brick over the rink, so it won't be a cheap building by any means. It has to fit the design of the existing buildings on the property.

Pls beware that masonry (brick) construction is expensive. Many long-span structure such as ice rinks are built with pre-engineered steel system, which is much cheaper and lighter. If you are concerned with aesthetics and making the building look more substantial (ie not cheap), you can always veneer the exterior with bricks or other materials of your choice to hide its bones. I have designed an ice rink before with the aforementioned system and it has won architectural design awards. So it really depends on the design and the architect.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Pls beware that masonry (brick) construction is expensive. Many long-span structure such as ice rinks are built with pre-engineered steel system, which is much cheaper and lighter. If you are concerned with aesthetics and making the building look more substantial (ie not cheap), you can always veneer the exterior with bricks or other materials of your choice to hide its bones. I have designed an ice rink before with the aforementioned system and it has won architectural design awards. So it really depends on the design and the architect.

We have an existing building on the site where the rink would be located that is made entirely of brick. So we'd only have to pay for the work (already have a mason on staff) and mortar and we'd just harvest the brick out of the existing building (building will need to be taken down no matter what). I do think the roof will have to be more like what you're talking about with some sort of metal construction.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Right - very little glide. It was basically a bunch of kids and they all looked very comfortable very quickly. On real ice they'd be slipping all over the place. Basically, on the synthetic surface, you give it a good push and you'd stop a few feet later. On ice, you'd be moving for 20-25 feet.

Mind you, I have no idea how and if this particular surface is maintained, nor do I know what surface they bought. I'll assume that the companies that sell these surfaces have all kinds of models - from basic to the cream of the crop. I have no idea which this one was - only that the whole concept left a sour taste in my mouth after trying out this particular version.

Understood. There are varying kinds of surface quality and maintenance, so I need to do a lot more checking either way. The feedback is great. Thanks.

[cyril]

We have an existing building on the site where the rink would be located that is made entirely of brick. So we'd only have to pay for the work (already have a mason on staff) and mortar and we'd just harvest the brick out of the existing building (building will need to be taken down no matter what). I do think the roof will have to be more like what you're talking about with some sort of metal construction.

from what I read you are saying you will demolish an existing building and savage the bricks to build the new one. Here's the caveat: I am not familiar with building codes over there, but new buildings need much better structural integrity than old buildings. New masonry buildings needed to be reinforced, most likely to be better detailed for rainproofing, etc. and you need to be sure that the masonry has enough structural strength to support the new roof. My advice is, aside from the business aspect, consult your local building department and hire an architect/ structural engineer to assess whether what you want to do is workable. A mason is not qualified for that.

[DaddyTorgo]

Pls beware that masonry (brick) construction is expensive. Many long-span structure such as ice rinks are built with pre-engineered steel system, which is much cheaper and lighter. If you are concerned with aesthetics and making the building look more substantial (ie not cheap), you can always veneer the exterior with bricks or other materials of your choice to hide its bones. I have designed an ice rink before with the aforementioned system and it has won architectural design awards. So it really depends on the design and the architect.
:eek:

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

from what I read you are saying you will demolish an existing building and savage the bricks to build the new one. Here's the caveat: I am not familiar with building codes over there, but new buildings need much better structural integrity than old buildings. New masonry buildings needed to be reinforced, most likely to be better detailed for rainproofing, etc. and you need to be sure that the masonry has enough structural strength to support the new roof. My advice is, aside from the business aspect, consult your local building department and hire an architect/ structural engineer to assess whether what you want to do is workable. A mason is not qualified for that.

We'd be required to do a full architectural design and have it approved by the local gov't. So yes, you're correct. :)

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Just in case anyone is curious, here's one of the main suppliers of synthetic ice products. They have a video gallery that allows you to see how it works........

EZ Glide 350™ : Synthetic Ice Skating surface. (http://www.coldproducts.com/ezglide.php)

[Fidatelo]

I watched the first couple minutes of one of the videos, it's pretty clear from watching the figure skater that it is much slower than real ice. That said, I was pretty impressed with the moves she was pulling off, as well as the hockey player, and neither of them looked like they were holding back for fear of the surface not responding in a way they would expect and causing injury (which would be my biggest fear stepping onto it).

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I watched the first couple minutes of one of the videos, it's pretty clear from watching the figure skater that it is much slower than real ice. That said, I was pretty impressed with the moves she was pulling off, as well as the hockey player, and neither of them looked like they were holding back for fear of the surface not responding in a way they would expect and causing injury (which would be my biggest fear stepping onto it).

Agreed. You can tell a difference. I think a slower surface may work OK given that I'll be trying to draw in families and kids in the local area that are mostly beginners. From my personal experience the first few times on ice, I wouldn't have minded at all starting on a slower surface. :)

[stevew]

So this is like a granite type flooring you can skate on basically? I'd imagine the upkeep makes it a win win situation. No offense, but it seems kind of lame as compared to actual ice.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

So this is like a granite type flooring you can skate on basically? I'd imagine the upkeep makes it a win win situation. No offense, but it seems kind of lame as compared to actual ice.

Plastic polymer surface. Life of the floor is 10 years on each side (panels are double sided). So you can get 20 years out of a set of panels. It's obviously MUCH cheaper than a natural surface since you don't have to get a resurfacing machine and you don't have to run the temperature control equipment. And you are able to use it year round rather than only 5 months out of the year in this area.

[TroyF]

Don't forget all of the hidden costs of this sort of venture. Insurance is a biggie right from the start.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Don't forget all of the hidden costs of this sort of venture. Insurance is a biggie right from the start.

Yep, have already talked to the insurance provider to get an estimate. But definitely a good thing to mention.