Why American Consumers Can't Add

[Passacaglia]

Since it's a slow day, I'll post this article I found on another forum.

Why American consumers can't add - The Red Tape Chronicles - msnbc.com (http://redtape.msnbc.com/2009/12/when-i-published-gotcha-capitalism-two-years-ago-i-was-in-for-a-big-surprise-as-i-talked-about-systemic-hidden-fee-fraud-al.html)


WHY AMERICAN CONSUMERS CAN'T ADD
Posted: Tuesday, December 29 2009 at 06:00 am CT by Bob Sullivan

When I published "Gotcha Capitalism" two years ago, I was in for a big surprise. As I talked about systemic hidden fee fraud all around the country, many, many friends (and even co-workers) found me and asked in hushed tones, “What’s a mutual fund?” “What’s comprehensive and collision?” “What’s a mortgage point?”

It was obvious from these conversations that millions of Americans are severely lacking in financial basics, and this shortcoming played a major role in the housing bubble and the resulting economic collapse. I wanted to know why.

I'm the hidden fee guy, the “Gotcha” guy. People like me usually rant about dreadful banks are and how unfair big companies are, about how corporate greed caused our economic collapse and about how rampant unfairness built the house of cards that just collapsed all around us and sent the world into a global recession.


But it's impossible to ignore the fact that individual consumers made a lot of really bad choices in the past decade. They bought homes with $2,000 mortgages when they only earned $3,000 a month. They borrowed money at 30 percent interest to buy granite countertops. Aren’t they to blame for their own demise? To be an honest journalist, I had to ask: Why are American consumers so gullible, so seemingly out of control? Is there something wrong with us?

Yes, several things. But most important is this: Americans are terrible at math.

I know you know that. But my research shows we are far worse at math than you think.

Exhibit A: Think about the last time you had lunch with four or more friends. What happened when the bill came? Everyone pulled out calculators, there was a lot of murmuring and head scratching and still some of your friends just ended up throwing down a $20 bill and hoping for the best. Now, imagine that crowd in a car dealership or with a mortgage broker. They wouldn’t stand a chance.

Turns out, there's an entire field of study -- albeit a small one -- devoted to this subject. It's called “innumeracy” -- or mathematical illiteracy. It’s a hidden epidemic in our society. And the consequences are dire.

Just as there is a hidden epidemic of people who are functionally illiterate in our country, there is big problem (bigger, by my reckoning) with people who can’t do basic math. There’s no way to function in our society without understanding money, percentages, interest calculation and so on. Yet in a recent government study, less than one in seven American adults ranked “proficient” at math.

Here are a few examples of innumeracy in action:

According to the Department of Education’s National Assessment of Adult Literacy, U.S. adults are terrible at solving real-world math problems, like calculating tips or comparing prices in grocery stores. Some dismal results:

*Only 42 percent were able to pick out two items on a menu, add them, and calculate a tip.

*Only 1 in 5 could reliably calculate mortgage interest.

*1 in 5 could not calculate weekly salary when told an hourly pay rate.

*Only 13 percent were deemed “proficient.” Worse yet, only 1 in 10 women, 1 in 25 Hispanics and 1 in 50 African Americans made the grade.

*Americans are terrified of numbers when it counts most: 20 million Americans pay someone to file their 1040EZ, a one-page tax form with around 10 blanks to fill out.

Also, these numbers show up in U.S. student math scores, which are abysmal:

*The U.S. ranks 25th among 30 industrialized nations in math scores, down near Serbia and Uruguay. U.S. students thought they had the highest grades of any nation in the study, however.

*Half of 17 year olds couldn't do enough math to work in an auto plant, according to President's National Mathematics Advisory Panel.

*Study after study shows U.S. achievement falls off the cliff during middle school, when subjects like fractions and percentages are introduced -- exactly the skills you need as a consumer or, for that matter, to move on to algebra, calculus and advanced sciences.

But here’s another essential point. How can Johnny learn to add if Johnny’s teachers can’t?

*In 18 U.S. states, not even one elementary math class is required for certification.

*Some teaching colleges allow admittance as long as students have math skills equal to their future students -- that is, as long as they could pass a 5th grade math test.

*It's possible in some states to pass the teacher certification exam (Praxis) without answering a single math question correctly.

*In Massachusetts, there's a special program to reacquaint teachers with math. The man who runs the program says half of teachers can't answer basic questions involving fractions and has concluded that many elementary teachers are "phobic" about math.

*Teachers seem to be math-averse from the start. College bound seniors headed for elementary education have math SAT scores significantly lower than the national average (483 vs. 515).

There are many, many other reasons why U.S. consumers tripped and fell down a mine shaft during the past two years. In my new book, "Stop Getting Ripped Off," I lay out a series of other explanations: Greed, laziness, lack of government regulation and magical thinking. And I offer up my own handy guide to solving today’s consumer puzzles, from buying a home to saving for retirement. But innumeracy is the biggest culprit.

Two years ago, I would have had to lay out a doomsday scenario to draw attention to this ticking time bomb. Well, the bomb’s gone off. People who were bad at math could hardly have been expected to see through the consequences of an adjustable-rate mortgage, or to make a sound bet on their future earnings potential. These consumers didn’t stand a chance against mortgage brokers, real estate agent and an overheated market. They can’t fight with financial planners over fees that are swallowing one-third of their retirement savings. Heck, they can’t even stop taking out 250 percent APR payday loans, 1,000 percent overdraft protection loans or paying tax preparation firms $100 for three minutes work to fill out simple tax forms. Now, millions of individuals are losing their homes and are on pace to become destitute in old age.

If I only shine a light on only one topic with this book, I hope it will be the hidden epidemic of innumeracy in America. Because if we can’t add, if we continue suffer from an extreme lack of mathematical self-confidence, any recovery we begin is surely doomed.

[path12]

I think it's 86% school system and 42% family caused.

[clemsonfan]

That's very scary. I try to get my kids to use math as much as possible in stores and restaurants so they can get some "real world" experience, so hopefully they won't be one of these statistics.

[Kodos]

The sad truth is that 2/3 of all people will become a statistic, and the other half don't realize how close they came to being one too.

[larrymcg421]

President Josiah Bartlet: Sweden has a 100% literacy rate, Leo. 100%! How do they do that?

Leo McGarry: Well, maybe they don't and they also can't count.

[Marc Vaughan]

43.4% of all statistics are made up ... including this one ;)

[Peregrine]

Homer Simpson: People can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. 14% of all people know that.

[JediKooter]

I use my tip calculator on my phone to be sure I'm not being a dick and leaving too small a tip. I'm usually right and the calculator just gives me an exact number, where I usually just round up.

[CraigSca]

I hate to say this because I'll get accused of being sexist, but I'll just throw this out there anyway.

In GENERAL, women don't like math.

In GENERAL, elementary school teachers are women.

You do the math. Pun intended.

[DanGarion]

I'll give my 110%!

[21C]

They call this a trick and start calling me a magician.

A math-magician!

[RainMaker]

I've been pushing for a "Life" course to be taught in schools. Teach young people what Mutual Funds, 401Ks, IRAs, etc are. Teach them about credit card interest rates and other daily crap we come across in our life.

The one thing that gets me isn't that there are dumb people who don't get this, but really intelligent people. I have a friend who is a lawyer who didn't know how a 401K worked. Just never got around to learning it I guess.

[DanGarion]

I've been pushing for a "Life" course to be taught in schools. Teach young people what Mutual Funds, 401Ks, IRAs, etc are. Teach them about credit card interest rates and other daily crap we come across in our life.

The one thing that gets me isn't that there are dumb people who don't get this, but really intelligent people. I have a friend who is a lawyer who didn't know how a 401K worked. Just never got around to learning it I guess.

How dare you want me to have a life and learn things that might be actually important to it!!!!!!!! Think of the children!

[CamEdwards]

I've been pushing for a "Life" course to be taught in schools. Teach young people what Mutual Funds, 401Ks, IRAs, etc are. Teach them about credit card interest rates and other daily crap we come across in our life.

The one thing that gets me isn't that there are dumb people who don't get this, but really intelligent people. I have a friend who is a lawyer who didn't know how a 401K worked. Just never got around to learning it I guess.

We could even call it Home Economics. I'd be all for that.

[RainMaker]

We could even call it Home Economics. I'd be all for that.
Do they still have that in schools? I didn't have it in high school. There was a class in Junior High but it was more about baking a cake and sewing than anything related to finances.

[CamEdwards]

Do they still have that in schools? I didn't have it in high school. There was a class in Junior High but it was more about baking a cake and sewing than anything related to finances.

I don't think they do, and I'm sure most people think of it as cake-baking. It sounds to me like it's time to update it for the 21st century.

[aran]

I'm reminded of one of my favorite quotes: "Americans are incapable of abstract thought, and make bad coffee." -Georges Clemenceau.

It's a shame that knowing stuff is considered evil (unless it's about the Bible) in many families. Being aware and curious about the world around you is considered to be a nuisance and a habit to be pounded out of a child. "Child-proof" your house, pen in your child all the time, give them toys that do all the imaginative work, keep them busy by completely organizing their lives as they grow up, and then never tell them when they are bad at anything.

Being a child-centric always-positive parent probably does more damage than good. (Not that corporal punishment and emotional abuse are any better.)

[EagleFan]

I heard somewhere that only 2 out of 5 Americans can actually do basic math at a 5th grade level. Those other two people must be morons...

[DanGarion]

I don't think they do, and I'm sure most people think of it as cake-baking. It sounds to me like it's time to update it for the 21st century.

Of course teaching people how to cook seems like a very useful skill as well...

[DanGarion]

We could even call it Home Economics. I'd be all for that.

I took a class in college much like this, called Personal Finance, I have said since then that everyone should be required to take it.

[larrymcg421]

My experience with Home Economics is that it's 90% Home, and 10% Economics.

I think a class focused specifically on the latter would be a good idea, especially with strong emphases on credit and debt situations.

[Mustang]

Being aware and curious about the world around you is considered to be a nuisance and a habit to be pounded out of a child. "Child-proof" your house)

:confused:

I don't consider child-proofing your home to be a bad thing.

[stevew]

My brother had an awesome example from one of his statistics classes(paraphrased)

"we here at Bob's Appliance Superstore don't like to mess around with hard to understand interest rates. Our financing plan is simple. Pick out a whole house full of appliances. Delivery is quick to your house and free. Just divide the total of your purchase by 10. And then make that every month for a year. I told you our financing was simple!"

[JonInMiddleGA]

Yup. Every American who graduates high school should have taken a basic life skills course and a civics class. At least know the basics of running your life and how the country is run.

But it's only as good as how it's taught, how willing the students are to learn, and whether there are any standards about how much is actually gained.

So sayeth the guy who had required classes in both in HS (as well as state history) and knows full well how many people laughed their way through those classes without learning a thing. You can lead horses to water ...

[RainRaven]

Not surprising at all to me. While I am not a math teacher but a Government teacher I must agree that our youth are not prepared to do any kind of math. I am close friends with many of the math teachers and they all say the kids enter high school with a lack of skills and even when they have some skills teachers are forced to teach math concepts that don't have a practical application for many students. In the county I teach we do have a required half year course called Economics and Public Issues. Essentially it does go over practical topics that many students need such as interest, credit cards etc.

[lungs]

My high school had a class called Consumer Economics that pretty well covered everything talked about. Teacher did a pretty good job. Lots of people took the class and he was pretty good with working with dumb people. He was also good at banging the hot guidance counselor behind his wife's back.

[terpkristin]

This thread reminds me of one of my college roommates (let me preface this by saying that she had issues, in general). One day I walked in and found her crying, and asked what was wrong. She proceeded to scream at me that she didn't know how to call and ask a company for an informational interview, now that she'd faxed them her resume. She proceeded to loudly tell me that her friend, a business major, took classes on doing "stuff like this" and it's obvious that Maryland was trying to screw over the gov/pol majors. So I tell her, "It's pretty easy. Just call and say who you are and that you recently faxed your resume and wanted to confirm that they got it and would be interested in setting up an informational interview, if that was possible." She then proceeded to yell at me and ask if they ALSO teach that to physics majors, and why is it so hard for a gov/pol major to learn these things (and then went on a rant about how the world was out to get her...). She graduated with high honors.

I don't know, I don't know that these things need to be taught in schools so much as basic skills should be taught...and, more importantly, encouraged at home, too. I'll be the first to admit that I come from a rather highly educated family (I'm the dumb one), but my mom taught me to balance a checkbook and rectify bank statements when I was about 10. Really, it's just simple math. Tipping, too, is a basic math skill. I don't think you need a special "life" class to teach you that.

As for other things, like 401K's and IRAs and such, I didn't really think much about them until I had a job, but it would be nice if employers could provide resources for employees not just to have access to those benefits, but to know what they are and why they're good and how they work. To be quite honest, my mom has been talking to me about retirement saving, etc, since I was a junior in college and I only really started semi-paying attention when I finally had a job and wanted to start my 401K contributions. Taking a "class" on that wouldn't have been something I'd have wasted my time/money/credit hours with in college and isn't really anything much other than simple interest things I learned in middle school math...

I agree that there are a lot of stupid people and stupid smart people out there. But then, I think everybody's stupid...
/tk

[Noop]

I smoke to much to do math.

[JonInMiddleGA]

But right now, there are a lot of horses not able to get any water. :-)

I guess that's the part I'm having a hard time fathoming. I mean, if they were teaching this stuff in the 80's in the middle of Bugtussle ...

In all seriousness, I had what would have to be considered a pretty shitty public school education by most standards even then, much less 25 years later. But this stuff was part & parcel of the curriculum even there & even back then. I know it's taught in high school in Georgia still since I've seen several kids go through it (and largely blow it off) during the past decade or so. Are there actually public school systems* where this kind of thing isn't taught today?

*I make that distinction because I realized that my son hasn't seen any of it in class yet and I'm not sure he will, but I'm guessing that's because it's considered a given that his class will be taught that kind of thing at home once they've learned the basic math principles

[RainMaker]

I guess that's the part I'm having a hard time fathoming. I mean, if they were teaching this stuff in the 80's in the middle of Bugtussle ...

In all seriousness, I had what would have to be considered a pretty shitty public school education by most standards even then, much less 25 years later. But this stuff was part & parcel of the curriculum even there & even back then. I know it's taught in high school in Georgia still since I've seen several kids go through it (and largely blow it off) during the past decade or so. Are there actually public school systems* where this kind of thing isn't taught today?

*I make that distinction because I realized that my son hasn't seen any of it in class yet and I'm not sure he will, but I'm guessing that's because it's considered a given that his class will be taught that kind of thing at home once they've learned the basic math principles
From my understanding, things have changed. Schools are now much more focused on standardized testing as that is what they are ultimately judged upon. Seems they've dumped classes that actually teach us stuff we use in favor of more time preparing for these classes.

We can go one step further than just personal finance. Schools no longer teach shop class either which is a valuable skill even in its most basic level. I'm shocked at how many people can't change their own tire.

[cougarfreak]

Yup. Every American who graduates high school should have taken a basic life skills course and a civics class. At least know the basics of running your life and how the country is run.

I'm trying to get a 4th Social Studies class added to the curriculum at the school I teach at, and you should have seen the fight at the site based council last month. Me and the band parents. They can't understand why a 4th SS requirement should be allowed, when their children take 8 semesters of band in high school. I went ballistic. Right now we require Geography, World Civ., and US History, and we are trying to add a Civics/Economics class added. It's crazy.

[cougarfreak]

Lets not blame the schools for focusing on standardized testing. This is how districts are measured by their states, how funding is determined, how schools can be presented to their public for levies, bond issues, etc. This is what you get when you have people who don't have a freaking clue about education deciding everything.

+ 1,000

[JonInMiddleGA]

Lets not blame the schools for focusing on standardized testing. This is how districts are measured by their states, how funding is determined, how schools can be presented to their public for levies, bond issues, etc.

Focusing on the test results isn't something I see as a problem ... IF we're testing the right stuff, which means teaching the right stuff in the first place; i.e. teaching to the test doesn't bother me one bit IF the curriculum requirements are right in the first place. Unfortunately we don't seem to be very good at getting that right consistently either, although I'll concede that it seems to be a moving target.

This is what you get when you have people who don't have a freaking clue about education deciding everything.

Sorry, but I have a hard time criticizing the people who are forced to pay for it. And we saw what decades of having "experts" in charge got us here in Georgia.

[RainMaker]

Lets not blame the schools for focusing on standardized testing. This is how districts are measured by their states, how funding is determined, how schools can be presented to their public for levies, bond issues, etc. This is what you get when you have people who don't have a freaking clue about education deciding everything.
I'm not blaming schools but the education system as a whole. The goal has gone from preparing kids to deal with life to gaming some tests for better funding.

[lynchjm24]

I interview probably 50 college graduates a year, from some pretty good schools. UConn, UMass, Trinity, Holy Cross, Bentley, Bryant etc...

There are 3 math questions in the interview that we ask. They can write out their answers but can't use calculators. This is a job where probably half the ability to be successful is your ability to work with numbers.

The first question is: What is 80% of 120? I swear to you that less then half of graduates from 4 year universities who graduate with finance/business type degrees can not answer that question with just paper and pencil. I would say that only 1 in 5 gets all three answers with no coaching.

I dug up the other questions: What is the percentage increase from 200 to 230? If I have 360 out of a potential 400 what percentage do I have?

[flere-imsaho]

I think it's 86% school system and 42% family caused.

path12 wins, thread over. :D

I use my tip calculator on my phone to be sure I'm not being a dick and leaving too small a tip. I'm usually right and the calculator just gives me an exact number, where I usually just round up.

My simple system works for me (and my limited, though not as limited as the examples in this thread, skills):

Good service = 20%. Take 1/10th of the bill before tax, double it, call it a day.

Bad service = 10%. Take 1/10th of the bill before tax, call it a day.

Horrible service (assuming we've even stayed) = maybe a buck.

Really awesome service = double the pre-tax bill, call it a day (OK, I've only done this a handful of times in my life).

I don't think they do, and I'm sure most people think of it as cake-baking. It sounds to me like it's time to update it for the 21st century.

Absolutely.

Of course teaching people how to cook seems like a very useful skill as well...

Of course, not the way Home Ec generally does it, which is cake-baking. Which is silly, because given the success of, say, the Food Network, it should be relatively easy to put together a fun cooking curriculum. Heck, just show an Alton Brown episode one day, and then make what he made the next day.

Of course, I simplify, but still....

[cuervo72]

Seems to me that as a society we've been trying to put more of an emphasis on verbal skills for a while. I could be mistaken, but I think 20 years ago when I took the PSAT the calculation for determining National Merit qualifiers was to take the math score plus twice the verbal score. Being stronger at math (at the time, anyway) I didn't really like math being de-emphasized like that. Of course, it could well have been calculated that way to attempt to have more female NMFs.

[SportsDino]

College graduates cannot answer lynchjim's questions for a job, that is pretty appalling.

My concern with education and people in general is they seem intolerant of actually TRYING to figure out how things work. They want an 'answer' and don't care if they can cheat to get it, and fail to understand that learning a system for finding answers is the whole point.

I know absolutely nothing about a variety of subjects, but if you sat me down in front of a practical problem from that field, say something i'm completely ill-suited for, like advertising... I'd get my ass in there and take it apart into terms I can understand and then knock it out of the park eventually. I wouldn't sit around bitching 'I ain't been trained for this shit'.

We got a population of wannabe delegators and no doers anymore, thats why I am slowly considering the majority of American poor dumb cattle that need to be herded for their own protection.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Seems to me that as a society we've been trying to put more of an emphasis on verbal skills for a while.

I imagine I saw a lot of the reason for that in the workplace back in the 90's.

One of the reasons I kept getting promoted into positions that I wasn't "educated" for was (as a boss put it) that I was one of the few people in the company who could actually communicate an idea/concept instead of just describing it with buzzwords that didn't actually mean anything.

[RainMaker]

I interview probably 50 college graduates a year, from some pretty good schools. UConn, UMass, Trinity, Holy Cross, Bentley, Bryant etc...

There are 3 math questions in the interview that we ask. They can write out their answers but can't use calculators. This is a job where probably half the ability to be successful is your ability to work with numbers.

The first question is: What is 80% of 120? I swear to you that less then half of graduates from 4 year universities who graduate with finance/business type degrees can not answer that question with just paper and pencil. I would say that only 1 in 5 gets all three answers with no coaching.

I dug up the other questions: What is the percentage increase from 200 to 230? If I have 360 out of a potential 400 what percentage do I have?
Do you also see a huge lack of professionalism when submitting resumes? I can't tell you how many educated people send in resumes and use slang or abbreviated words in the e-mail. Stuff like:

Hey,

I've attached my resume for your consideration. Plz lemme know if you need some more info.

When I was looking for a job out of college, I was really formal. Spell-checked everything and made sure I had perfect grammar. Even in just a quick follow-up e-mail to the person. It's amazing to me how many people send in resumes with mispellings and mistakes on them. It's also amazing that the first thing they want to know about is how much vacation they get and when they can start taking it.

[terpkristin]

I can't tell you how many educated people send in resumes and use slang or abbreviated words in the e-mail. Stuff like:

Hey,

I've attached my resume for your consideration. Plz lemme know if you need some more info.

Really?!

I was the same as you when I was looking for a job; very formal, spell-check, proper grammar, etc. Though I have to say, at least in my industry (I don't see cover letters, I do see resumes, though), that everybody now seems to have 4 or 5 honor societies and things that they think make them stand out, but when you realize that EVERYBODY is in those... What really drives me nuts, when interviewing people, is when they don't use complete sentences, and when it's obvious they haven't done any homework on my company. That was a big rule of thumb even 6 years ago when I started interviewing, to know your audience and prepare for them. That seems to have gone by the wayside. Then again, when I was in the interview process, I used the word "ubiquitous" during an interview and realized when my interviewer said, "I don't know what that means," that I wasn't getting the job.

I wonder if at least some of these types of problems stem in part (if not in full) from the helicopter-parenting and the "everybody wins" or "nobody fails" mentality that seems so prevalent (treating kids like precious snowflakes and such) these days.

/tk

[lynchjm24]

Do you also see a huge lack of professionalism when submitting resumes? I can't tell you how many educated people send in resumes and use slang or abbreviated words in the e-mail. Stuff like:

Hey,

I've attached my resume for your consideration. Plz lemme know if you need some more info.

When I was looking for a job out of college, I was really formal. Spell-checked everything and made sure I had perfect grammar. Even in just a quick follow-up e-mail to the person. It's amazing to me how many people send in resumes with mispellings and mistakes on them. It's also amazing that the first thing they want to know about is how much vacation they get and when they can start taking it.

We don't see them come in the door, they come through human resources and they have somewhat screened them before we even see them. We get what they put into our job site on the internet and it's generally just their resume copied into our format. We do see all the terrible grammar and there are many that are poorly written.

I don't usually spend much time on the resumes since we mostly hire kids that are just graduating college and I don't much care about the things that they generally put on there. It's a pretty good entry level position that pays 45-50k but we interview from such a shallow pool it's unbelievable.

We have a lot of bad interviews but they generally aren't things like people asking about vacation before they start it's just that they either are so arrogant it's impossible to be in a room with them or they are just so dumb that they can't even answer the questions. The non-math questions fall into the "Can you tell us about a time you worked as part of a group. What were the advantages and what were the disadvantages? How did you handle when someone didn't do their fair share?" category. So I don't even really care about the answer, I just try and figure out if they can communicate.

Most of the time I'm just scribbling in a notebook and have an idea 3 minutes in if they are suited for the job or not. Each candidate is interviewed by 4 different people and I always laugh when we discuss who to hire because people will want to make a decision based on a specific answer to a question. I really just try to have a normal conversation and see if they can do the math, because I can teach you how to do the job it's not rocket science.

There are a lot of great stories from over the years though. We had this really conservative woman who was pushing for a young male because he paid his way through school by working at a nightclub. She dug up his resume to tell us it was 'Scruples in Bridgeport' We didn't have the heart to tell her that it was a nudie bar, I think that would have ruined his chances.

[lynchjm24]

Not knowing anything about the job or the company pretty much forces me to tune out pretty quickly. I actually interviewed the son of a member of our upper management and he had no idea what he was interviewing for. Once I get to that point, I try to see how fast I can get them out of my office.

[lynchjm24]

Really?!

I wonder if at least some of these types of problems stem in part (if not in full) from the helicopter-parenting and the "everybody wins" or "nobody fails" mentality that seems so prevalent (treating kids like precious snowflakes and such) these days.



Ha, we've had guest speakers at our leadership conferences come and teach us how to manage the kids that have been helicopter-parented. I guess Bruce Tulgan is the most 'famous' in the field. His books are ok, but in person he's excellent.

[terpkristin]

I really just try to have a normal conversation and see if they can do the math, because I can teach you how to do the job it's not rocket science.

HAHAHHAA. I do rocket science, and have not yet asked any math questions when I interview. I have, though, asked situational-type questions, to see how they think on their feet; that is, I bring up hypothetical situations that are similar to ones I've experienced and ask what they'd do to solve the problem. When I interviewed for my job, I was asked some basic electronics questions, in the guise of situational problem-solving, but even then, the answer wasn't as important as the thought process.

/tk

[CraigSca]

Do you also see a huge lack of professionalism when submitting resumes? I can't tell you how many educated people send in resumes and use slang or abbreviated words in the e-mail. Stuff like:

Hey,

I've attached my resume for your consideration. Plz lemme know if you need some more info.

When I was looking for a job out of college, I was really formal. Spell-checked everything and made sure I had perfect grammar. Even in just a quick follow-up e-mail to the person. It's amazing to me how many people send in resumes with mispellings and mistakes on them. It's also amazing that the first thing they want to know about is how much vacation they get and when they can start taking it.

You know, I wonder if we're the last generation that cares about these things. Certainly this generation is growing up in an age where text-slang is prominent and acceptable. 20-40 years from now - I wonder if this slang will be the norm and the days of completing a thought on paper will be long gone.

[RainMaker]

You know, I wonder if we're the last generation that cares about these things. Certainly this generation is growing up in an age where text-slang is prominent and acceptable. 20-40 years from now - I wonder if this slang will be the norm and the days of completing a thought on paper will be long gone.
I don't know if it's just that though. I wonder if it's just how kids are being raised. Seems a lot of them feel a sense of entitlement. I was raised to be professional and call people Sir and Ma'am.

[lcjjdnh]

Do you also see a huge lack of professionalism when submitting resumes? I can't tell you how many educated people send in resumes and use slang or abbreviated words in the e-mail. Stuff like:

Hey,

I've attached my resume for your consideration. Plz lemme know if you need some more info.

When I was looking for a job out of college, I was really formal. Spell-checked everything and made sure I had perfect grammar. Even in just a quick follow-up e-mail to the person. It's amazing to me how many people send in resumes with mispellings and mistakes on them. It's also amazing that the first thing they want to know about is how much vacation they get and when they can start taking it.


As a member of the younger generation, I feel as though I need to defend some of my peers. It seems every generation bemoans how the youth of America have become less intelligent, resilient, strong, industrious, polite, etc. without actual proof.

On one hand, there are many extraordinarily ambitious college-age students that have performed hours of community service, spent summers at internships, have top-notch grades and test scores--and, most important to many of you, can summarize all these experiences in resumes that will be perfect in every respect. On average, the qualifications of today's students at the "top" undergraduate and graduate schools would by far exceed those at these same schools 20 years ago. And all of these schools have increased the amount of support they provide to these students in these areas--my inbox in both undergraduate and graduate school has been filled with invitations to resume workshops, cover letter seminars, one-on-one proofreading sessions, etc. If anything, I guarantee these students are actually much more overanxious about these types of things than students in the past; I can assure you that many of my classmates live in fear that one misplaced period on a cover letter will ruin their entire career. They would deliver the perfect resumes you guys would hope for.

On the other hand, there are also many students that are weeded out from kindergarten and don't receive the same pressure from parents and teachers--and also never put that pressure on themselves. They are allowed to get through school without meeting many of the requirements to be expected as long as some administrator can add them to the graduation rate. However, I also have to assume there were many of these people in past generations--they just didn't necessarily go to college and/or look for the type of jobs in which proper writing on a resume might be required. Today, even marginal high school students have access to college (as long as they can afford it) and many jobs that don't necessarily require you use anything you learn in college--they simply want to see the degree as a signaling device. Many of these students probably would turn in the types of resumes you guys have mentioned, however, in the past resumes from these types of people might never have been turned in at all.

I also suspect the weeding out function also relates to the lack of specific skills for many students, failing to give some people the exposure to the broad curriculum you need to be a well-rounded individual. If you have poor Math skills, you're told it's OK as long as your good at English or History or Drama or Music and so on. If you have poor English skills, you're told it's OK as long as you are good at Math. Much like young athletes these days must play one-sport year-round at the expense of playing three or four different ones, students are quickly shunted down a track where they will specialize in one area at the expense of all others. I was always amazed at the lack of writing skills possessed by classmates in business/economics classes and the basic lack of math skills and economic literacy many of my co-workers on the student newspaper had. However, that's not the students' fault--it's rather the fault of the administrators, teachers and parents that designed the school systems.

[CraigSca]

I do, however, think this generation is different. We're all hell-bent on "teaching" children self-esteem with the idea that success will come from it, but it's backwards. What we should have been teaching the children is discipline and effort - that's where success and then self-esteem comes from. Why we thought we could give the end-game to the kids and that would "teach" effort is beyond me. Instead, we have a generation of kids who think they're entitled to everything and they deserve only the very best without working for it. They also are entirely fearful of failure because they've been prevented from doing so. This will be a very interesting generation to watch.

[rowech]

The massive difference between then and now is families staying together. Both parents at home, both raising the child, both having their strengths in raising the child. Now? Yes, I know there are exceptions to it both then and now but overall, the differences here are MASSIVE.

[JediKooter]

They key is not to regress as each generation comes and goes. We don't talk and write the same as early Americans did or even as they did earlier in the last century. Things change, some goood, some not. I think with things being as convienent and faster these days, people may forget their manners or where they are at sometimes. You need to be able to switch the slang off at the appropriate times is all. Like during a job interview or in your resume.

Of all the resumes that have been rejected for using slang or text speak, how many applicants were told that is why they were rejected? People sometimes just don't know and need to be told.

[DanGarion]

-my inbox in both undergraduate and graduate school has been filled with invitations to resume workshops, cover letter seminars, one-on-one proofreading sessions, etc.
There are just more people willing to exploit naive people...

[DanGarion]

Of all the resumes that have been rejected for using slang or text speak, how many applicants were told that is why they were rejected? People sometimes just don't know and need to be told.
Maybe that's the problem? I mean if someone is too stupid to realize this do you really want them working for you in the first place?

[lcjjdnh]

There are just more people willing to exploit naive people...

In many ways, I agree. Our generation is way too willing to just accept what others say without any questioning. If anything, we are way more willing to just bow to authority--which is somewhat troubling to me.

[JediKooter]

Maybe that's the problem? I mean if someone is too stupid to realize this do you really want them working for you in the first place?

Well, we do, but do they? Ignorance doesn't always mean stupid if that makes sense. However, I do think public schools should be teaching at a higher standard than what I went through and I'm sure it isn't too much different today. Just my opinion though.

[CraigSca]

Well, we do, but do they? Ignorance doesn't always mean stupid if that makes sense. However, I do think public schools should be teaching at a higher standard than what I went through and I'm sure it isn't too much different today. Just my opinion though.

Ha - I don't want them teaching at a higher standard, I want them teaching TO the standard. I still have vivid memories of practicing my times tables at the bus stop during 3rd grade. My son is in fifth grade and he still doesn't know his tables (though we've personally attempted to help by placing flash cards throughout the house). During my son's parent-teacher conference, we were told that he's near the top of his class in math skills. My first question was, "be honest with me - there's no way the requirements haven't been dumbed down over the years" and his teachers admitted as much.

My thinking is - "great, we're teaching kids (or attempting to) how to solve problems but we're not arming them with the base information to do so." He understands the concepts, but without fact memorization how does this help him in the real world. As was mentioned earlier in the thread - it's wonderful that he knows the standard tip is 15% - but it's of no use if he can't figure out how to apply it. I don't like how our reliance on technology as the fact finder (whether it's Google or a pocket calculator) is manifesting itself.

[rowech]

Ha - I don't want them teaching at a higher standard, I want them teaching TO the standard. I still have vivid memories of practicing my times tables at the bus stop during 3rd grade. My son is in fifth grade and he still doesn't know his tables (though we've personally attempted to help by placing flash cards throughout the house). During my son's parent-teacher conference, we were told that he's near the top of his class in math skills. My first question was, "be honest with me - there's no way the requirements haven't been dumbed down over the years" and his teachers admitted as much.

My thinking is - "great, we're teaching kids (or attempting to) how to solve problems but we're not arming them with the base information to do so." He understands the concepts, but without fact memorization how does this help him in the real world. As was mentioned earlier in the thread - it's wonderful that he knows the standard tip is 15% - but it's of no use if he can't figure out how to apply it. I don't like how our reliance on technology as the fact finder (whether it's Google or a pocket calculator) is manifesting itself.

My mother-in-law teaches 3rd grade. She is no longer allowed to give timed multiplication tests because it hurts student self-esteem too much if they continually don't pass it as well as the fact that calculators are allowed on all state tests anyway.

[BrianD]

I would love to know what kind of long-term damage we are doing to these kids by trying to protect their self-esteem at this age.

[lynchjm24]

As a member of the younger generation, I feel as though I need to defend some of my peers. It seems every generation bemoans how the youth of America have become less intelligent, resilient, strong, industrious, polite, etc. without actual proof.


The top 10% of students and young professionals are off the charts good. It's the mean and median who are regressing.

[lynchjm24]

Maybe that's the problem? I mean if someone is too stupid to realize this do you really want them working for you in the first place?


Honestly, I'd like to give more people decent feedback on resume and interviews but you aren't really allowed to at most big corporations.

[lynchjm24]

As was mentioned earlier in the thread - it's wonderful that he knows the standard tip is 15% - but it's of no use if he can't figure out how to apply it. I don't like how our reliance on technology as the fact finder (whether it's Google or a pocket calculator) is manifesting itself.

My wife just told me that two of her coworkers who have finance degrees who make plenty of money called her last night to ask her how they should split their $137 dinner check... BETWEEN TWO.

[DanGarion]

My wife just told me that two of her coworkers who have finance degrees who make plenty of money called her last night to ask her how they should split their $137 dinner check... BETWEEN TWO.

Well that's easy, they should both give her $137 each and she will pay it for them.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The top 10% of students and young professionals are off the charts good.

Then again, most of the ones I've run across who would fit into that tier are also complete f'n basket cases, and I spend a lot of time lately wondering about the trade offs that are being made.

[lynchjm24]

Then again, most of the ones I've run across who would fit into that tier are also complete f'n basket cases, and I spend a lot of time lately wondering about the trade offs that are being made.

I don't usually get to hire them because they can usually find much better offers then 50k, so I don't really know how they would have worked out. I doesn't take a discerning eye to see that the United States is losing ground because our educational system has slipped. Before the teaching professionals get their backs up I blame the parents more then teachers and schools.

[sterlingice]

I've been pushing for a "Life" course to be taught in schools. Teach young people what Mutual Funds, 401Ks, IRAs, etc are. Teach them about credit card interest rates and other daily crap we come across in our life.

The one thing that gets me isn't that there are dumb people who don't get this, but really intelligent people. I have a friend who is a lawyer who didn't know how a 401K worked. Just never got around to learning it I guess.

Could you imagine the curriculum fights?
"How can you say that about capital gains taxes?!? You're brainwashing the kids" or "That's an ethnic stereotype and has no place here"

That said, I'm all for it and making it a requirement. We've already tread this ground a bit in the thread, but I'll throw my hat into the ring.


One semester in high school with basic home finance: price shopping for groceries, since checkbooks are already balanced online now- update it to an understanding of budgeting, home mortgages, 401K, credit card interest, all the stuff mentioned above. Really, this can't even take a whole semester. Tie it into your economics course, if necessary. However, make sure the home economics part isn't shorted.

Or I'd add in a class on other basic home skills. It would consist of basic plumbing/electrical, car repair (oil change, for instance), and just general home life skills like basic cooking (not baking but cooking), landscaping, etc. Heck, keep some of the home economics elements that I vaguely remember people in my school went through (I took Latin or Band instead of HomeEc- I forget which): planning a budget for a family, look at the cost of a baby, etc- but no one needs to spend a week on baking cookies or carry around a sack of flour to see how it feels to be pregnant.

I've got a lot more on this topic since I'm just catching up today but it's going to take a while.

SI

[flounder]

If you could make them understand compound interest, then everything else is a snap.

People really just don't understand how much money they are throwing away by carrying debt with a huge interest rate. Conversely, they don't understand how much money they could be making by saving small amounts for long periods of time.

[SteveMax58]

We got a population of wannabe delegators and no doers anymore, thats why I am slowly considering the majority of American poor dumb cattle that need to be herded for their own protection.

Funny...this is my "opportunity for improvement". I should be delegating my responsibilities to people who do not report to me...on topics that I am held responsible for (and not them)...despite having (and being willing to spend) the time. Or so says my boss's boss (not my direct boss) who I spent a total of probably 6 days with over the past year.

[lynchjm24]

Funny...this is my "opportunity for improvement". I should be delegating my responsibilities to people who do not report to me...on topics that I am held responsible for (and not them)...despite having (and being willing to spend) the time. Or so says my boss's boss (not my direct boss) who I spent a total of probably 6 days with over the past year.

Just pretend like you are doing it and your problems are solved.