Leach Fired!

[Chief Rum]

This whole topic deserves its own thread, and frankly, wasn't really being mentioned in too many others, which surprises me. Where have our standards gone, FOFC? :)

Just thought I would start a thread for all comments/stories/etc. re: this story, which, IMO, is even bigger than the Mangino story.

[Chief Rum]

Oh, yeah, and as to the thread title, apparently it's being reported that Mike Leach has been fired.

[SirFozzie]

Not surprising, they would have had to pay him 800K if he was the coach tommorrow.

I ahve a feeling with the doctor's note that the dark area would be best for him, they just stepped in the cow patties.

[cougarfreak]

Was there any confimation that he did do anything?

[gstelmack]

What was fun was watching ESPN run this all the time over the last two days, and the only time they ever mentioned "son of ESPN Analyst Craig James" was on the ESPNNewsHD sidebar version of the story.

[miked]

Seems like a ploy to get out of paying him the bonus...especially considering the timing. Also, I heard they just wanted an apology out of him and he wouldn't do it. Seems odd to fire somebody when you would've been happy with an apology just a week earlier.

[Chief Rum]

Was there any confimation that he did do anything?

From what I can tell, no one's really denying he put the kid in a shed. It also seems to be more or less confirmed the kid had a concussion.

Everything else lies within the lines of what a coach is able to do a kid on a football team, what is acceptable and what is not.

[MacroGuru]

The story has changed some many times from closet, to shed, to room that I honestly think there is something to it, but because of who the players father is it is being made a bigger story than it should be.

[Chief Rum]

Seems like a ploy to get out of paying him the bonus...especially considering the timing. Also, I heard they just wanted an apology out of him and he wouldn't do it. Seems odd to fire somebody when you would've been happy with an apology just a week earlier.

My understanding is, that's what the James wanted. They sent him letters asking him to agree to not do it again, and to apologize. It was when he didn't respond/agree that they went public.

Considering one could be seen as usurping Leach's authority as coach and the other could be used as an admission of culpability in a civil trial, I can't say I am surprised Leach didn't agree to either request.

I think TTech was prepared to pay their successful coach any money he deserved. No indications they were trying to get rid of Leach (unlike Kansas with Mangino). It was only with these allegations that they caused them to question, and so then the immediate issue of the bonus money soon forthcoming would be an understandably big thing for the university.

[timmynausea]

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[cougarfreak]

From what I can tell, no one's really denying he put the kid in a shed. It also seems to be more or less confirmed the kid had a concussion.

Everything else lies within the lines of what a coach is able to do a kid on a football team, what is acceptable and what is not.

I just saw a video on on it, collegefootballtalk.com/ has a video of the garage and room James was put in. Evidently he was sent there because he had on sunglasses (which aren't allowed at practice), and complained of concussion symptoms. So coach basically removed him from practice, and kept 3 trainers with him to make sure he didn't have any serious symptoms. What a fucking pussy.

[sterlingice]

I just saw a video on on it, collegefootballtalk.com/ has a video of the garage and room James was put in. Evidently he was sent there because he had on sunglasses (which aren't allowed at practice), and complained of concussion symptoms. So coach basically removed him from practice, and kept 3 trainers with him to make sure he didn't have any serious symptoms. What a fucking pussy.

That's what we're kicking around here at work. What could he have done that was fireable?

We came to the conclusion that it was a situation of something like "kid came to practice, complaining about concussion and he's been milking the injury so his 'practice' for the day was to go clean out the equipment shed since he couldn't be on the field"

SI

[Toddzilla]

Every report I heard on ESPN and ESPNews mentioned the player was the son of ESPN analyst Craig James

Also, TTEch has to pay Leach $400K for every year left on his contract if they fire him, so this isn't a money-saving scheme.

[MacroGuru]

Every report I heard on ESPN and ESPNews mentioned the player was the son of ESPN analyst Craig James

Also, TTEch has to pay Leach $400K for every year left on his contract if they fire him, so this isn't a money-saving scheme.

I doubt they have to pay him anything if he was fired for cause...that will definitely be an interesting thing to find out.

But Leach's lawyer came out this morning and even said he expected the firing to happen today due to the bonus.

[digamma]

They fired him with cause, meaning they believe he breached his contract. Thus, no future contract payments.

The $800,000 payment is another matter. Leach would have a strong argument that this is due regardless (the argument is that you can't fire someone the day before a bonus is due to avoid paying the bonus--there has to be an immediate bad act or something to trigger the firing). I also understand there is a separate contract argument that Leach had time to cure a breach under the contract following notification of the breach.

[sooner333]

Also, TTEch has to pay Leach $400K for every year left on his contract if they fire him, so this isn't a money-saving scheme.

Well the timing of it saves money ($800k if he coached tomorrow). Also, it's significantly cheaper than if they had paid him his contract--the new coach probably will make an amount where $400k per year will be a savings.

[sterlingice]

Every report I heard on ESPN and ESPNews mentioned the player was the son of ESPN analyst Craig James

Yeah, they have *no* vested interest in blowing this out of proportion :rolleyes:

SI

[timmynausea]

The whole thing is a little weird, but it hardly seems fire-able. Can you imagine if this Athletic Department had to deal with a loose cannon Coach like Bob Knight? Oh, wait...

[JonInMiddleGA]

That's what we're kicking around here at work. What could he have done that was fireable?

Got his attorney to seek a restraining order to allow him to coach the bowl game?

[SirFozzie]

here's the thing. The AD had gone through a contentious resigning of Leach during the off season, where Leach held them to ransom, etcetera. Leach was untouchable due to the heights he had taken the program.

This pissed off the AD, but by not resigning Leach he was basically cutting his own throat, so he just filed this away in the "Awaiting payback" section.

Texas Tech didn't have as great of a year, and suddenly, this pretext came up where he could deliver payback where he wouldn't be risking his own neck to fire him. Payback delivered.

Here's the story from earlier in the year:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=3906227

Basically, Leach saw this coming. I'm shocked he signed the deal, this AD is beginning to look more and more like a vindictive asshole.

[DeToxRox]

Leach was fired because the AD hates him. They have had numerous run ins in the past, he was just looking for a reason.

[digamma]

Fozzie, Texas Tech pretty much outperformed expectations this year. They weren't really in anyone's top five due to the loss of a lot of talent from last year's team. Many people would call it his best coaching job. On field performance has absolutely 0 to do with this.

[SirFozzie]

Fozzie, Texas Tech pretty much outperformed expectations this year. They weren't really in anyone's top five due to the loss of a lot of talent from last year's team. Many people would call it his best coaching job. On field performance has absolutely 0 to do with this.

To the alumni, he didn't get them as far as last year, therefore he's not as indispensable.

[digamma]

To the alumni, he didn't get them as far as last year, therefore he's not as indispensable.

I'll repeat...on field performance had nothing to do with this.

[sooner333]

To the alumni, he didn't get them as far as last year, therefore he's not as indispensable.

My limited contact with Tech alumni show that they are up in arms about this. One guy had on his facebook "Fire Gerald Myers" and "I am very disappointed in my school". Apparently when the attorney announced that Leach had been fired at the courthouse, one guy in the gathering crowd said "Who is going to buy tickets anymore?" I think it's fair to say that the alumni do not think he is indispensable. In fact, I think there is going to be some backlash at a program that struggles to sell-out the stadium on a regular basis.

[RainMaker]

Most alumni only care about winning. Leach could be found raping babies everyday in his office and it's not a fireable offense if he can get them to a BCS game every other year.

My guess is the story is somewhere in the middle of the two versions. I'm guessing James wasn't a great team guy and I'm sure Leach tried to "teach him a lesson". My guess is he wore the sunglasses, Coach Leach got mad and said "if you want darkness, I'll show you darkness". Made the kid spend a practice or two in a garage that was that.

I think the guy probably deserves to be fired as this doesn't look as innocent as they are trying to make it out to be. On the other hand, this shit probably goes on all the time at schools. Leach's biggest mistake was not going 11-1 this year.

[TexasT]

I just saw a video on on it, collegefootballtalk.com/ has a video of the garage and room James was put in. Evidently he was sent there because he had on sunglasses (which aren't allowed at practice), and complained of concussion symptoms. So coach basically removed him from practice, and kept 3 trainers with him to make sure he didn't have any serious symptoms. What a fucking pussy.

+1

[I. J. Reilly]

If James didn't have a concussion, it most certainly will after the next practice. Keep your head on a swivel, kid.

[rowech]

I just love Craig James...as if this dude's some innocent guy. Taking money when he went to SMU, going to the USFL for the $, and then constantly dropping that he was the last white RB in the NFL to rush for 1000 yards. He's always been an arrogant fill in the blank. Wouldn't surprise me a bit if there was illegal recruiting at Tech and James said fire him or I blow the whistle. Cracks me up he even has a job in college sports.

Like someone said, the story is somewhere in between and now that Leach doesn't have to worry about saving his job, I look forward to what he has to say.

[RainMaker]

It is amazing how the NCAA doesn't have a problem with one of the announcers being someone who took money in college during one of the biggest college sports scandals of all time. I know the NCAA doesn't care about cheating anymore (unless you're a small school), but at least give some impression to the public.

[Atocep]

To be fair, Craig James' name was never mentioned in the investigation at SMU and he was never accused of taking money while there.

[RainMaker]

In the reports that came out, wasn't it noted that almost everyone took payments? They didn't name everyone personally but I was under the impression that evidence showed that almost everyone was getting some form of payment.

[Atocep]

In the reports that came out, wasn't it noted that almost everyone took payments? They didn't name everyone personally but I was under the impression that evidence showed that almost everyone was getting some form of payment.

James has always been considered one of the few clean players from that team and there's never been any proof or someone stepping forward to say otherwise.

[Logan]

Yeah, they have *no* vested interest in blowing this out of proportion :rolleyes:

SI

Seems like it could very well bite them in the ass if it turns out that he was pushing his kid's exaggeration or was using a personal grudge over him not playing to get the guy fired.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Seems like it could very well bite them in the ass if it turns out that he was pushing his kid's exaggeration or was using a personal grudge over him not playing to get the guy fired.

What's the worst that happens (to the network)? They fire James & play the victim of being hoodwinked by someone they trusted. The world will largely shrug in that scenario.

[BishopMVP]

I think TTech was prepared to pay their successful coach any money he deserved. No indications they were trying to get rid of Leach (unlike Kansas with Mangino). It was only with these allegations that they caused them to question, and so then the immediate issue of the bonus money soon forthcoming would be an understandably big thing for the university.As Fozzie linked to, the AD has been trying to get rid of him since at least last offseason. What a bunch of pussies in the Big 12.

[gstelmack]

Every report I heard on ESPN and ESPNews mentioned the player was the son of ESPN analyst Craig James


The night this broke, I saw several mentions on ESPNNews with no info (at first they weren't even identifying the player). Later that night the scrolling ticker did not mention the connection. It was only when the sidebar story on the HD channel came up with more details that it mentioned Craig James.

[JPhillips]

An honest question. If you're okay with a coach doing this, would you also support other university employees doing the same thing? Would this be acceptable behavior for an English professor?

[SirFozzie]

An honest question. If you're okay with a coach doing this, would you also support other university employees doing the same thing? Would this be acceptable behavior for an English professor?

Let's see an English professor who gets judged on what English Bowl the school gets invited to, and also one where English majors regularly show up with concussion symptoms.

I think the doctor's note pretty much puts Leach in the clear.

[cougarfreak]

An honest question. If you're okay with a coach doing this, would you also support other university employees doing the same thing? Would this be acceptable behavior for an English professor?

Classroom behavior and punishments is a whole, and I mean a WHOLE different world. I did both for 18 years........and it is. Not even close. I wouldn't make a kid run wind sprints for being late to class, but I might a student athlete for the same thing. The other thing people forget is, football is an extracurricular activity. It's voluntary. That doesn't mean a kid can be abused, but from the above video, it seems that is far from the case. This seems like nothing more than a spoiled brat with a high profile daddy bitching and kicking.

[JonInMiddleGA]

That doesn't mean a kid can be abused, but from the above video, it seems that is far from the case. This seems like nothing more than a spoiled brat with a high profile daddy bitching and kicking.

This has become increasingly my perception as well. And I was initially inclined to figure Leach might be stupid/batshit crazy enough to be trying some sort of weird ass darkness therapy or simply thinking he could get away with some abusive punishment. But the more that slowly comes out, the more it looks to me like he wasn't doing anything particularly bothersome.

[timmynausea]

An honest question. If you're okay with a coach doing this, would you also support other university employees doing the same thing? Would this be acceptable behavior for an English professor?

It seems about the same as saying "go sit in the hall" to me. Except they were outdoors in December, so they sent him to a nearby shelter with trainers.

[terpkristin]

I think the doctor's note pretty much puts Leach in the clear.

What doctor's note? (if it was in the YouTube video, I've been having issues getting YouTube to load)

/tk

[SirFozzie]

What doctor's note? (if it was in the YouTube video, I've been having issues getting YouTube to load)

/tk

Tech suspends Leach after complaint | FROM STAFF REPORTS (http://lubbockonline.com/stories/122909/spo_540556326.shtml)

[Ted] Liggett said it’s “ridiculous” to characterize the building adjacent to the team’s practice fields as a “shed” or an “electrical closet.”

“Because of the fact that he had a concussion and he was extremely limited in the physical activity he could undergo, Mike felt like that was the best place for him and still be close to and part of the team,” Liggett said.

Liggett said while James was secluded on two occasions, he was not treated inappropriately and had a doctor’s statement attesting to that.

“There’s much, much more than meets the eye,” Liggett said. “The diagnosing doctor has signed a note stating that Adam James was in no way injured by the actions coach Leach took. In fact, he was better off in the building than he would have been outside.”

[Galaxy]

I know Tech fans/alumni are saying that Adam was a borderline Division 1 player (nevermind the Big 12) and the only reason he got to Tech was due to his name/daddy. Any truth to that?

[Galaxy]

Dola...

I like how ESPN pull James from broadcasting Saturday's Alamo Bowl.

[terpkristin]

Thanks for posting, Foz.

Still sounds like either a) the whole story hasn't come out or b) the AD was getting his much-desired revenge (as Fozzie pointed out).

But I still think he looks creepy and am most looking forward to this being resolved so that they don't keep showing him on ESPN.

/tk

[Senator]

This is AD driven, pure and simple.

[miami_fan]

I will ask the obvious question. Is this standard operating procedure for dealing with concussions on the football field? I know things will be specifically different at different schools but why wouldn't he go to a medical facility and be monitored? Why the equipment room/shed/ I have not followed this story very closely so if it has been reported just point me in the right direction. This is especially in light of the increased sensitivity to head injuries today.

[RainMaker]

The AD could also be looking out for the program. Do you guys realize how much this will be used by other schools in recruiting? The story was probably overblown but it's still insane how they treated the kid with a concussion. If the doctor prescribed treatment for dealing with concussions is locking someone in a garage in the dark, then he should keep his job. Seems to me he was pissed off at the kid and wanted to punish him.

Anyway, maybe Tech hires a coach who isn't a pussy with scheduling.

[JPhillips]

Let's see an English professor who gets judged on what English Bowl the school gets invited to, and also one where English majors regularly show up with concussion symptoms.

I think the doctor's note pretty much puts Leach in the clear.

Professors, especially pre-tenure, are judged by student placement, publications, status within the field, etc. It's not identical, but similar to being judged on a team record.

I have students show up with illnesses and injuries all the time and if I did what Leach did I'd almost certainly be fired, especially if I was as pigheaded when confronted by the administration.

As for the later "sit a student in the hall" comparison, I'd probably be in trouble for doing that if the student was supervised and unable to leave.

I guess i just don't understand the difference in accepted treatment between coaches and everyone else who works for a college/university.

[Glengoyne]

Based on my followings of the firings and resulting lawsuits at Fresno State, I'd guess this costs the University some bucks. True that most of Fresno's problems have been gender related, but they painted Johnson-Klein as a drug addict and fired her for cause. Texas Tech has done no less besmirching of Leach's name.

[Honolulu Blue]

I still think he looks creepy and am most looking forward to this being resolved so that they don't keep showing him on ESPN.

This doesn't look like it's going to go away quickly unless Tech offers him a wad o' cash to settle & muzzle him.

I wouldn't be terribly surprised if Leach ended up an analyst/broadcaster at FSN, so that's another way his face could stay in view.

[CU Tiger]

Part of developing a football player, is developing toughness. It is a physical game, and players must be prepared for that, naturally.

I have had a couple of concussions but I am certainly no expert, nor do I pertain to be, but my understanding is that the major concern following a concussion is to prevent additional trauma to the head.

No football player likes practice at any level, and what it sounds like to me was the kid was milking the concussion and saying he could not participate in any drills etc (or even wear a helmet) so Leach in an attempt at a teaching moment and as a bit of a noe thumb says fine, your are protect because of your injury lets get you out of the lights and far away from any contact. To then demand the player stands, well all his other teamates have to stand for the entire practicce, and I can not see where a few minutes (or hours) on his feet would worsen his condition.

Much to do about nothing as far as I am concerned.
TT welcome back to irrelevance.

[MacroGuru]

Professors, especially pre-tenure, are judged by student placement, publications, status within the field, etc. It's not identical, but similar to being judged on a team record.

I have students show up with illnesses and injuries all the time and if I did what Leach did I'd almost certainly be fired, especially if I was as pigheaded when confronted by the administration.

As for the later "sit a student in the hall" comparison, I'd probably be in trouble for doing that if the student was supervised and unable to leave.

I guess i just don't understand the difference in accepted treatment between coaches and everyone else who works for a college/university.

Most of the times your students are their because they are paying...most of the times an Athlete is there because the school is paying.

So a student has more rights at the school than said student athlete....trust me, that comparison was made to me many times playing ball.

[SirFozzie]

This WAS in the New York Times article, and now has disappeared:



A person with direct knowledge of the tension between Leach and Texas Tech said that Craig James used his position at ESPN to lobby Texas Tech coaches for more playing time for his son.

"He called the coaches and implored them to play his son more and insinuated he would say good things about them on the air if they played his son more," said the person, who was granted anonymity because of the sensitive nature of the issue. "At one point Leach said to James, ‘The next time your father leaves any of us a voice mail to that effect we’re going to play it to the entire team.’ "

The person said Leach’s attorney sent a letter to ESPN executives informing them of this. An ESPN spokesman said that ESPN was not immediately available to comment.


Assuming this is true, or even remotely the case, James should be fired.

[CU Tiger]

Craig James just said, "We the family continue to be victims in this."

Grrr.... and ESPN is now very slanted in their portrayal of all this. It just smells bad to me.

[RainMaker]

This WAS in the New York Times article, and now has disappeared:

A person with direct knowledge of the tension between Leach and Texas Tech said that Craig James used his position at ESPN to lobby Texas Tech coaches for more playing time for his son.

"He called the coaches and implored them to play his son more and insinuated he would say good things about them on the air if they played his son more," said the person, who was granted anonymity because of the sensitive nature of the issue. "At one point Leach said to James, ‘The next time your father leaves any of us a voice mail to that effect we’re going to play it to the entire team.’ "

The person said Leach’s attorney sent a letter to ESPN executives informing them of this. An ESPN spokesman said that ESPN was not immediately available to comment.

Assuming this is true, or even remotely the case, James should be fired.

It's tough to believe anything coming out now. I saw that CBS posted some e-mails from former players and current coaches in support of Leach. They were eerily similar though and seemed to rattle off the same talking points.

Whether these accusations are true are irrelevant. Sure James should be fired from ESPN, but this has nothing to do with the current situation. It seems more like a smear job from the Leach camp. The issue is whether he locked a player in a garage becuase he wore sunglasses to practice. Whether he mistreated this player who had a concussion. His dad is a seperate issue and has nothing to do with this.

[SirFozzie]

Craig James just said, "We the family continue to be victims in this."

Grrr.... and ESPN is now very slanted in their portrayal of all this. It just smells bad to me.

Oh yeah, noticed that all the ESPN-heads were rallying round the flag on the radio and TV

[RainMaker]

Part of developing a football player, is developing toughness. It is a physical game, and players must be prepared for that, naturally.

I have had a couple of concussions but I am certainly no expert, nor do I pertain to be, but my understanding is that the major concern following a concussion is to prevent additional trauma to the head.

No football player likes practice at any level, and what it sounds like to me was the kid was milking the concussion and saying he could not participate in any drills etc (or even wear a helmet) so Leach in an attempt at a teaching moment and as a bit of a noe thumb says fine, your are protect because of your injury lets get you out of the lights and far away from any contact. To then demand the player stands, well all his other teamates have to stand for the entire practicce, and I can not see where a few minutes (or hours) on his feet would worsen his condition.

Much to do about nothing as far as I am concerned.
TT welcome back to irrelevance.
This isn't the fucking military, it's college football at a mediocre school. I'm all for toughness and making kids run windsprints and whatever is fine. It seems like he went too far on this one.

If Leach had a problem with the kid he should have just cut him. To act like his only option was to lock him in a garage is ridiculous. Toughness is one thing, but this shit with abuse is getting out of hand at the college level. They are still very young adults.

[CU Tiger]

This isn't the fucking military, it's college football at a mediocre school. I'm all for toughness and making kids run windsprints and whatever is fine. It seems like he went too far on this one.

If Leach had a problem with the kid he should have just cut him. To act like his only option was to lock him in a garage is ridiculous. Toughness is one thing, but this shit with abuse is getting out of hand at the college level. They are still very young adults.

"Cutting" a scholarship athlete is not that easy. Or even possible depending on the given school's scholarship contract.
I'm not saying it is the best procedure, but I can appreciate what he was trying to do. Crap these kids dont know what abuse is, read up on Bear Bryant, and his contemporaries....and now think how they are regared as legends.

Out of great challenge comes great success.

[SirFozzie]

Oh, WOW.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/img/12-09/1231leach.pdf

One of the top boosters (the guys who really call the shots) with an email chain to the AD.

Page 4: "When we fire him after next year"

(now admittedly, this is during the discussion over the new contract..) but seriously, this is looking more and more like a setup.

[SirFozzie]

This isn't the fucking military, it's college football at a mediocre school. I'm all for toughness and making kids run windsprints and whatever is fine. It seems like he went too far on this one.

If Leach had a problem with the kid he should have just cut him. To act like his only option was to lock him in a garage is ridiculous. Toughness is one thing, but this shit with abuse is getting out of hand at the college level. They are still very young adults.

Abuse? Are you kidding me?

If this was abuse, Bear Bryant would be in jail. Vince Lombardi would receive the death sentence.

It's really too bad the prima donna attitude has filtered down to the college level.

[RainMaker]

Different eras. Bear Bryant would have been fired very early on and the school would have been sued so many times over that it wouldn't even be funny.

[miami_fan]

"Cutting" a scholarship athlete is not that easy. Or even possible depending on the given school's scholarship contract.
I'm not saying it is the best procedure, but I can appreciate what he was trying to do. Crap these kids dont know what abuse is, read up on Bear Bryant, and his contemporaries....and now think how they are regared as legends.

Out of great challenge comes great success.

Abuse? Are you kidding me?

If this was abuse, Bear Bryant would be in jail. Vince Lombardi would receive the death sentence.

It's really too bad the prima donna attitude has filtered down to the college level.

So let them practice without water? Really?

[CU Tiger]

So let them practice without water? Really?


Without water, probably not.
But mandatory breaks every 30 is not necessary.

The body has a remarkable ability to adapt and grow, for example if you push it to its limits, its ability increases. On a particularly hot day, in a heately contested 4th quarter, you may not be able to take a time out for water..players need to be able to handle this stress.

That said, are we really going to compare witholding water and standing in a dark climate controlled room?

[RainMaker]

Tell that to Korey Stringer or the other people who died from heat stroke. There is no reason to withhold water from any player. There is never a time in a game where a player is going to go that long without some water. Let me know the next time a college football player is on the field for 45 minutes without a chance to get a swig of water.

Regardless of the incident, Texas Tech felt it to be inhumane and not someone they wanted coaching their football players. It's their choice and that's that. Leach is free to find a job for another major college football program (good luck with that).

[miami_fan]

Without water, probably not.
But mandatory breaks every 30 is not necessary.

The body has a remarkable ability to adapt and grow, for example if you push it to its limits, its ability increases. On a particularly hot day, in a heately contested 4th quarter, you may not be able to take a time out for water..players need to be able to handle this stress.

That said, are we really going to compare witholding water and standing in a dark climate controlled room?

Given the present environment when it comes to head injuries, we might as well be. Especially if, as you said, Mike Leach was trying to prove a point. He tried to prove a point about toughness to a kid (or spoiled brat take your pick) with a concussion. After the Mangino incident, the Leavitt incident, the hearings in Congress about head injuries etc. What was the point? That if he got his "bell rung" during a game, he better be prepared to go back in the game

Look, I am not saying that James was not milking his injury but there seems to be an better way to prove the point. How about not playing him in games due to his inability to practice. Having him stand in a dark room in that fashion gives me the impression that a concussion really is no deal to Leach.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Leach is free to find a job for another major college football program (good luck with that).

I imagine he'll have a BCS conference job before TT even sniffs the prominence they'd reached with him at the helm.

[RainMaker]

I imagine he'll have a BCS conference job before TT even sniffs the prominence they'd reached with him at the helm.
Where? Few major teams had interest in him before. He runs a gimmick offense that usually gets throttled against good teams (something Leach doesn't schedule). Maybe he grabs a job at a lower tier BCS school, but he's not getting anywhere near a top program.

[Atocep]

Regardless of the incident, Texas Tech felt it to be inhumane and not someone they wanted coaching their football players. It's their choice and that's that. Leach is free to find a job for another major college football program (good luck with that).

Do you really think he was fired because they found what was done inhumane?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Where? Few major teams had interest in him before. He runs a gimmick offense that usually gets throttled against good teams (something Leach doesn't schedule). Maybe he grabs a job at a lower tier BCS school, but he's not getting anywhere near a top program.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if he ended up being Meyer's replacement at Florida (among other possibilities).

[RainMaker]

The thing you guys don't factor in is that it's not Mike Leach's ass on the line. If a player goes out there and practices/plays with a concussion and gets seriously hurt because Mike Leach "didn't believe him", it's Texas Tech's ass that will get sued through the roof. It's their budget that takes a massive hit. It's their recruiting that will fall off the face of the Earth. The risk/reward is just not worth it.

[SirFozzie]

especially since they had a doctor's note saying keeping him still and upright in a dark room was better then letting him practice, which was what the player wanted?

[SirFozzie]

The thing you guys don't factor in is that it's not Mike Leach's ass on the line. If a player goes out there and practices/plays with a concussion and gets seriously hurt because Mike Leach "didn't believe him", it's Texas Tech's ass that will get sued through the roof. It's their budget that takes a massive hit. It's their recruiting that will fall off the face of the Earth. The risk/reward is just not worth it.

So we're agreeing that Leach keeping a player who's complaining about concussion like symptoms in a dark room and upright (again, with the doctor's note that says it was better then letting him practice) was a good thing, right?

So what is he getting fired for? (other then helicopter ESPN Dad thought his genetic spawn was super special and that mean old coach wasn't playing him enough?)

[JonInMiddleGA]

The thing you guys don't factor in is that it's not Mike Leach's ass on the line. If a player goes out there and practices/plays with a concussion and gets seriously hurt because Mike Leach "didn't believe him", it's Texas Tech's ass that will get sued through the roof. It's their budget that takes a massive hit. It's their recruiting that will fall off the face of the Earth. The risk/reward is just not worth it.

But the guy didn't practice, he stood in a room under supervision. How is that somehow inhumane?

The more of this story that comes out, the more it looks as though this is about a player with marginal ability & marginal playing time trying to milk an injury to get out of practice.

As far as football schools go, the only reluctance to hiring Leach would come from his offense, his personality, or the fact that he seems to be pretty close to being certifiably shit fucking nuts ... not from some trumped up accusation that gave an opportunity to people wanting to play office politics.

[Atocep]

The thing you guys don't factor in is that it's not Mike Leach's ass on the line. If a player goes out there and practices/plays with a concussion and gets seriously hurt because Mike Leach "didn't believe him", it's Texas Tech's ass that will get sued through the roof. It's their budget that takes a massive hit. It's their recruiting that will fall off the face of the Earth. The risk/reward is just not worth it.

Their recruiting fell off the face of the earth the second they fired Mike Leach.

[RainMaker]

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if he ended up being Meyer's replacement at Florida (among other possibilities).
Yes, Florida is looking for a coach to run a gimmick offense that gets exposed by good teams in big games.

No one really had any interest in him last year when he went looking. Not sure why that changes now.

[Atocep]

Yes, Florida is looking for a coach to run a gimmick offense that gets exposed by good teams in big games.

Isn't that exactly what was said of Urban Meyer when he was hired by UF? It's amazing what a gimmick offense can do when it starts landing 4 and 5 star recruits.


No one really had any interest in him last year when he went looking. Not sure why that changes now.

Miami had interest before deciding to hire Shannon. UW also had interest. He'll easily land at a BCS school.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Yes, Florida is looking for a coach to run a gimmick offense that gets exposed by good teams in big games.

As opposed to the traditional scheme they've been running for the past four years? It just happened that Meyer's gimmick centered on a freak of an athlete & leader.

But hey, you're right, no team ever got to a BCS bowl game with a gimmick offense. I sure am glad Georgia Tech stuck to the pro set.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Miami had interest before deciding to hire Shannon.

And may have interest again pretty soon.

[RainMaker]

So we're agreeing that Leach keeping a player who's complaining about concussion like symptoms in a dark room and upright (again, with the doctor's note that says it was better then letting him practice) was a good thing, right?

So what is he getting fired for? (other then helicopter ESPN Dad thought his genetic spawn was super special and that mean old coach wasn't playing him enough?)
He punished a player for no other reason than to get joy out of doing so. It wasn't to make the team better in any way. He could have sent the kid back to his dorm, could have kicked him off the team, or he could have sent him into the trainers room where he could sit or lay down on a table. The garage/shed was a punishment and nothing more. A punishment that had nothing to do with football and instead a clash of egos.

And enough with trying to make the garage/shed some sort of therapy. It was a fucking punishment. The issue isn't whether the shed was air conditioned or had a place to sit, it was that a coach found that form of punishment acceptable for a kid who said he had a concussion and couldn't practice.

[CU Tiger]

Tell that to Korey Stringer or the other people who died from heat stroke. There is no reason to withhold water from any player. There is never a time in a game where a player is going to go that long without some water. Let me know the next time a college football player is on the field for 45 minutes without a chance to get a swig of water.

Regardless of the incident, Texas Tech felt it to be inhumane and not someone they wanted coaching their football players. It's their choice and that's that. Leach is free to find a job for another major college football program (good luck with that).

Korey Stringer died from overloading on ephedrine to cut weight. Fair enough, max alerts were like M&Ms in HS and College locker rooms in the mid 90s on gamenight/day where I was...but lets not pretend water would have helped him.

Given the present environment when it comes to head injuries, we might as well be. Especially if, as you said, Mike Leach was trying to prove a point. He tried to prove a point about toughness to a kid (or spoiled brat take your pick) with a concussion. After the Mangino incident, the Leavitt incident, the hearings in Congress about head injuries etc. What was the point? That if he got his "bell rung" during a game, he better be prepared to go back in the game

Look, I am not saying that James was not milking his injury but there seems to be an better way to prove the point. How about not playing him in games due to his inability to practice. Having him stand in a dark room in that fashion gives me the impression that a concussion really is no deal to Leach.

I would agree with you 100% if Leach had sent him in to practice and told him to take a hit, he told him (according to reports) to put his helmet on and listen during position drills. The kid refused and Leach told him "either you need medical treatment, you are able to participate in non contacts or you are off the team" The kid asked for medical attention and Leach (who BTW despite being bat shit crazy is a lawyer and a very intelligent dude) asked the trainer for the best recognized practice for concussions. He was told dark room and cool temps....so he complied. The kid wanted to sit, Leach ascertained that standing would not cause undue stress on his concussion according to certified trainers and instructed him to stand.

Again, its football it is supposed to be tough.
Its kinda funny, I always said Id like my kid to play for Coach Knight, and I think I might feel the same about Coach Leach...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Its kinda funny, I always said Id like my kid to play for Coach Knight, and I think I might feel the same about Coach Leach...

Except for the whole batshit crazy part (which seems to have absolutely nothing to do with the current tempest in a teapot).

[miami_fan]

Korey Stringer died from overloading on ephedrine to cut weight. Fair enough, max alerts were like M&Ms in HS and College locker rooms in the mid 90s on gamenight/day where I was...but lets not pretend water would have helped him.



I would agree with you 100% if Leach had sent him in to practice and told him to take a hit, he told him (according to reports) to put his helmet on and listen during position drills. The kid refused and Leach told him "either you need medical treatment, you are able to participate in non contacts or you are off the team" The kid asked for medical attention and Leach (who BTW despite being bat shit crazy is a lawyer and a very intelligent dude) asked the trainer for the best recognized practice for concussions. He was told dark room and cool temps....so he complied. The kid wanted to sit, Leach ascertained that standing would not cause undue stress on his concussion according to certified trainers and instructed him to stand.

Again, its football it is supposed to be tough.
Its kinda funny, I always said Id like my kid to play for Coach Knight, and I think I might feel the same about Coach Leach...

I guess this goes back to my original question. Is this the standard way of dealing with concussions? Or was this a special case to deal with this particular kid?

I agree with those that say that his firing has very little to do with this particular incident. I believe the administration did not want him as their football coach. I also believe that despite his new contract, he believed he was above the job at Texas Tech. Given his relationship with the administration, this dismissal was inevitable.

It is funny you brought up his intelligence. I think he is too smart not to know that he would be fired for such an incident.

[RainMaker]

As opposed to the traditional scheme they've been running for the past four years? It just happened that Meyer's gimmick centered on a freak of an athlete & leader.

But hey, you're right, no team ever got to a BCS bowl game with a gimmick offense. I sure am glad Georgia Tech stuck to the pro set.
Meyer and Leach's offense are not much alike at all. From the line splits to the routes they run. And Meyer's gimmick didn't crumble against top teams in big games.

Leach's offense is cute and puts up some amazing stats against the no-names they play OOC every year. They're able to spread them out and outrun most teams. But that shit won't fly in the SEC where everyone has speed and you know it.

[RainMaker]

Isn't that exactly what was said of Urban Meyer when he was hired by UF? It's amazing what a gimmick offense can do when it starts landing 4 and 5 star recruits.

Miami had interest before deciding to hire Shannon. UW also had interest. He'll easily land at a BCS school.
Didn't those e-mails posted as "proof" that TT was screwing Leach over show that those teams had little interest and was used more as a negotiating ploy? I mean his agent was begging teams to interview him and even offering to pay for the flight out to do so.

Shannon wasn't Miami's top pick either so how far down on the list was Leach?

[RainMaker]

Korey Stringer died from overloading on ephedrine to cut weight. Fair enough, max alerts were like M&Ms in HS and College locker rooms in the mid 90s on gamenight/day where I was...but lets not pretend water would have helped him.
So water does not help with heat stroke? Lot of medical experts disagree as dehydration is what causes it.

Medical experts say the death of Korey Stringer was entirely preventable | Active.com (http://www.active.com/fitness/Articles/Medical_experts_say_the_death_of_Korey_Stringer_was_entirely_preventable.htm)


I would agree with you 100% if Leach had sent him in to practice and told him to take a hit, he told him (according to reports) to put his helmet on and listen during position drills. The kid refused and Leach told him "either you need medical treatment, you are able to participate in non contacts or you are off the team" The kid asked for medical attention and Leach (who BTW despite being bat shit crazy is a lawyer and a very intelligent dude) asked the trainer for the best recognized practice for concussions. He was told dark room and cool temps....so he complied. The kid wanted to sit, Leach ascertained that standing would not cause undue stress on his concussion according to certified trainers and instructed him to stand.

Again, its football it is supposed to be tough.
Its kinda funny, I always said Id like my kid to play for Coach Knight, and I think I might feel the same about Coach Leach...
So it is of your belief that putting a kid in a shed or garage is the prescribed treatment for a concussion?

[Atocep]

Meyer and Leach's offense are not much alike at all. From the line splits to the routes they run. And Meyer's gimmick didn't crumble against top teams in big games.

Leach's offense is cute and puts up some amazing stats against the no-names they play OOC every year. They're able to spread them out and outrun most teams. But that shit won't fly in the SEC where everyone has speed and you know it.


Over the last 5 years he's 1-4 against Texas and 3-2 against Oklahoma. These are teams that blow Texas Tech recruiting out of the water. They're not in the same ballpark so I wouldn't say that record against those two schools is crumbling in big games. He's also 5-4 in bowl games while he's been there.

He's taken a school that will never be able to recruit on an elite level and got to the point where it was competitive with the top teams in the Big 12.

[CU Tiger]

So water does not help with heat stroke? Lot of medical experts disagree as dehydration is what causes it.

Medical experts say the death of Korey Stringer was entirely preventable | Active.com (http://www.active.com/fitness/Articles/Medical_experts_say_the_death_of_Korey_Stringer_was_entirely_preventable.htm)



So it is of your belief that putting a kid in a shed or garage is the prescribed treatment for a concussion?


Geez....
Sure water helps prevent heat stroke, but to play your way, I am sure you would also say that Cocaine or any other stimulant would also not contribute, correct.

Come on his heart rate was estimate based on tox loads to be 1.5-1.75xs his normal level for similar strenous activity. Increased heart rate, increased core temp. Hell the doctors ruled that stimulant use played a larger role than any single other factor in his death...

No, keeping a kid from sustaining blows to his head is the prescribe treatment. Beyond that I really dont care where he stands, would you counter that the shed served to further his concussion? If not then the concussion is a moot point. And we are really talking about not liking a player being aske to stand in a shed. Honestly i wowuld be ok if he had been asked to jog strips all practice....it would not further his injury.

[CU Tiger]

Meyer and Leach's offense are not much alike at all. From the line splits to the routes they run. And Meyer's gimmick didn't crumble against top teams in big games.

Leach's offense is cute and puts up some amazing stats against the no-names they play OOC every year. They're able to spread them out and outrun most teams. But that shit won't fly in the SEC where everyone has speed and you know it.

In 75 years of football pre Leach TT had 5 bowl victories. In 8 years under Leach they have 5 bowl victories....he has clearly elevated the program.

Oh and the offense looked horrible against texas last year with only 1 elite player, right?

[JonInMiddleGA]

But that shit won't fly in the SEC where everyone has speed and you know it.

Eh, make a few adjustments to it, put together a defense that's capable of holding its own in spite of TOP issues, & I don't see any major problem outside of anyone other than Alabama at the moment ... depending upon how good an eye Leach has for identifying talent that compliments his basic system (which I have no idea about one way or the other).

[Chief Rum]

Man, it's pretty darn late where I am--and I am on the West Coast.

You guys are nuts still doing a back and forth at this time. ;)

[RainMaker]

Over the last 5 years he's 1-4 against Texas and 3-2 against Oklahoma. These are teams that blow Texas Tech recruiting out of the water. They're not in the same ballpark so I wouldn't say that record against those two schools is crumbling in big games. He's also 5-4 in bowl games while he's been there.

He's taken a school that will never be able to recruit on an elite level and got to the point where it was competitive with the top teams in the Big 12.
Since he's gotten there he's 3-7 against Oklahoma and 2-8 against Texas. He is 11-31 (.261) against ranked teams.

Listen, TT is a good fit for him. He can pad his record against nobodies and maybe knock off a ranked school every year and make a bowl game. Not a lot of pressure on him and that's fine. Kansas State did the same think under Snyder for years. But to expect that he can jump into the SEC and compete with the big boys is a stretch.

[RainMaker]

In 75 years of football pre Leach TT had 5 bowl victories. In 8 years under Leach they have 5 bowl victories....he has clearly elevated the program.

Oh and the offense looked horrible against texas last year with only 1 elite player, right?
The Texas game was great for him. He followed it up by letting Oklahoma push his shit in.

I'm not arguing that he's a bad coach, he's in fact a good one. But I think you guys are really stretching it trying to put him in the same category as guys like Nick Saban, Pete Carroll, and Urban Meyer.

[CU Tiger]

So he was 1-1 against 2 top 5 teams each with vastly superior talent...not bad.

And sure he struggled his first few years, have you looked at what he inherited.

He has one of the toughest recruiting jobs in the country, lubbock is the armpit of texas...and all the good local kids want to go to T, aTm, OK,OKST, or even TCU before TT

[Atocep]

I'm not arguing that he's a bad coach, he's in fact a good one. But I think you guys are really stretching it trying to put him in the same category as guys like Nick Saban, Pete Carroll, and Urban Meyer.

I don't think anyone tried to make that argument.

[RainMaker]

Geez....
Sure water helps prevent heat stroke, but to play your way, I am sure you would also say that Cocaine or any other stimulant would also not contribute, correct.

Come on his heart rate was estimate based on tox loads to be 1.5-1.75xs his normal level for similar strenous activity. Increased heart rate, increased core temp. Hell the doctors ruled that stimulant use played a larger role than any single other factor in his death...

No, keeping a kid from sustaining blows to his head is the prescribe treatment. Beyond that I really dont care where he stands, would you counter that the shed served to further his concussion? If not then the concussion is a moot point. And we are really talking about not liking a player being aske to stand in a shed. Honestly i wowuld be ok if he had been asked to jog strips all practice....it would not further his injury.
No, the shed probably didn't further his concussion. Just as having him stand on hot coals wouldn't either. But he's paid to be a football coach and that's it. Having the kid stand in a shed did not help the football team in any way and he has no business doing it. That is unless you believe Bill Belichek is locking Randy Moss in a dark shed this week so that he can be on top of his game Sunday.

[RainMaker]

I don't think anyone tried to make that argument.
Jon said he wouldn't be surprised if Florida brought him in and you made comparisions with Urban Meyer earlier as well. Florida is one of the most prestiguous football schools out there and if you feel he is qualified to coach them, you feel he is an elite coach.

[JonInMiddleGA]

But to expect that he can jump into the SEC and compete with the big boys is a stretch.

Who is he really competing with?

Saban I'll grant you.

But given his recruiting situation, he's on par with pretty much everyone else in the conference right now. There are big question marks about Richt in terms of coaching ability (another year like this one, freshman QB or not, and he might very well be gone from Athens), it's a matter of time before Kiffin lands the Vols on probation, and there really isn't anyone else in the conference I'd put on a coaching tier ahead of Leach.

[RainMaker]

So he was 1-1 against 2 top 5 teams each with vastly superior talent...not bad.

And sure he struggled his first few years, have you looked at what he inherited.

He has one of the toughest recruiting jobs in the country, lubbock is the armpit of texas...and all the good local kids want to go to T, aTm, OK,OKST, or even TCU before TT
In one season. I am using his entire resume there.

You're exaggerating the recruiting there. His classes have been on par with where they usually finish in the Big 12. And Texas is a hotbed of talent. Taking the scraps from some of the big schools is still better than anything he'll find up in Iowa, Minnesota, or Wisconsin.

[Atocep]

Jon said he wouldn't be surprised if Florida brought him in and you made comparisions with Urban Meyer earlier as well. Florida is one of the most prestiguous football schools out there and if you feel he is qualified to coach them, you feel he is an elite coach.

I pointed out the fact that Meyer also runs a gimmick offense and that coaching 4 and 5 star talent is different than what Leach is working with at Texas Tech. I didn't compare the two coaches directly.

After Spurrier left UF they hired Ron Zook. UM hired Rich Rodriguez. OSU hired a 1-AA coach after John Cooper left. I think Leach is more than qualified to get an elite level job. That doesn't mean he's an elite level coach. He did have a far tougher job at Texas Tech than Meyer, Carroll, and Saban have at their schools, though.

[JonInMiddleGA]

if you feel he is qualified to coach them, you feel he is an elite coach.

Or he's as elite as is readily available.

I don't think Saban or Carroll are coming to Gainesville, nor are Paterno or Bowden, Sr. What's left that's considered guaranteed significantly better? Stoops I guess, but there are at least legit questions about whether he'd take the job.

[bhlloy]

I'm not arguing that he's a bad coach, he's in fact a good one. But I think you guys are really stretching it trying to put him in the same category as guys like Nick Saban, Pete Carroll, and Urban Meyer.

I though Pete Carroll was an underachiever?

[RainMaker]

Who is he really competing with?

Saban I'll grant you.

But given his recruiting situation, he's on par with pretty much everyone else in the conference right now. There are big question marks about Richt in terms of coaching ability (another year like this one, freshman QB or not, and he might very well be gone from Athens), it's a matter of time before Kiffin lands the Vols on probation, and there really isn't anyone else in the conference I'd put on a coaching tier ahead of Leach.
The NCAA doesn't really punish major schools so Kiffin is safe. He may be a moron but he's got an incredible staff and is recruiting great. Saban and Meyer are better as mentioned and I'd definitely throw Spurrier, Miles, Richt, Nutt, and Petrino out there as better coaches more qualified to recruit and coach in the SEC.

[JonInMiddleGA]

After Spurrier left UF they hired Ron Zook. UM hired Rich Rodriguez. OSU hired a 1-AA coach after John Cooper left. I think Leach is more than qualified to get an elite level job. That doesn't mean he's an elite level coach.

And Notre Dame just hired a guy who has never won a major bowl game.

[RainMaker]

I though Pete Carroll was an underachiever?
I think he has with the talent they have had. He's still an elite coach who can bring in the best talent.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The NCAA doesn't really punish major schools so Kiffin is safe. He may be a moron but he's got an incredible staff and is recruiting great. Saban and Meyer are better as mentioned and I'd definitely throw Spurrier, Miles, Richt, Nutt, and Petrino out there as better coaches more qualified to recruit and coach in the SEC.

Spurrier I'd give you ... except that it's increasingly clear that his time has passed (even moreso than Bowden, Sr. IMO).

I'd just as soon have Leach as any of the others you named, and would rather have him over 3 of the other 4.
edit to add: It's pretty obvious to anyone watching them regularly that Richt can't gameday coach his way out of a wet paper sack, and with the exception of one walk-on fullback, there's not really been a player I can think of that was coached up during his tenure. I wouldn't piss on Petrino if he spontaneously combusted in front of me, he's a walking pile of excrement that I hope gets gunned down in a drive by at the earliest opportunity, I'd just as soon hire the former Iraqi Information Minister as my SID as have him anywhere near my program. I don't believe Nutt's upside is as high as Leach's could be given UF caliber talent. Miles might be the one guy I'd put on roughly the same plane.

[RainMaker]

And Notre Dame just hired a guy who has never won a major bowl game.
Brian Kelly beats ranked teams, Leach doesn't.

[CU Tiger]

The NCAA doesn't really punish major schools so Kiffin is safe. He may be a moron but he's got an incredible staff and is recruiting great. Saban and Meyer are better as mentioned and I'd definitely throw Spurrier, Miles, Richt, Nutt, and Petrino out there as better coaches more qualified to recruit and coach in the SEC.


Id say Leach is better today than Spurrier, Richt, Nutt and Miles....Petino is a toss up, and Im not sure who is crazier frankly.

[RainMaker]

Spurrier I'd give you ... except that it's increasingly clear that his time has passed (even moreso than Bowden, Sr. IMO).

I'd just as soon have Leach as any of the others you named, and would rather have him over 3 of the other 4.
I don't think Spurrier is losing it, just much tougher to recruit in South Carolina. They play a much tougher schedule than most on a yearly basis.

[RainMaker]

Id say Leach is better today than Spurrier, Richt, Nutt and Miles....Petino is a toss up, and Im not sure who is crazier frankly.
He is better than coaches who have made multiple BCS Bowls and won National Championships? Someone inform all the athletic directors who are not interested.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Brian Kelly beats ranked teams, Leach doesn't.

You mean other than Nebraska this year (who is better than anyone Cincy played) and a pair of top 10 teams (at the time) last year?

[bhlloy]

Houston Nutt? For real?

It's funny you keep bringing up Meyer, because to me that's exactly who Mike Leach is. An enigmatic coach who had success at a smaller school and got the most out of his talent with a unique system, except Leach did it in a tougher conference. I have no doubt if this controversy blows over he'll get a job at the end of next year with a big name school.

[Atocep]

In one season. I am using his entire resume there.

You're exaggerating the recruiting there. His classes have been on par with where they usually finish in the Big 12. And Texas is a hotbed of talent. Taking the scraps from some of the big schools is still better than anything he'll find up in Iowa, Minnesota, or Wisconsin.

Recruiting classes by rivals along with conference finish.


Recruiting class Conference Finish
'02 48th - 10th T - 4th
'03 44th - 9th T - 6th
'04 33rd - 7th T - 3rd
'05 37th - 6th T - 2nd
'06 25th - 5th T - 5th
'07 52nd - 10th T - 5th
'08 45th - 10th T - 1st
'09 33rd - 6th T - 4th

This is at a school that was recruiting far worse before Leach arrived.

[JonInMiddleGA]

He is better than coaches who have made multiple BCS Bowls and won National Championships? Someone inform all the athletic directors who are not interested.

If you're seriously considering Spurrier even a top 30 coach today, you need to just stop now & move on to something you know more about.

I never thought it would be possible that Darth Visor would become so sad to watch that he would become a sympathetic figure but that's what it's come to. His heart isn't in it, I'm not sure his head is up to it anymore either frankly.
It's so bad that there really aren't many people who can work up a good hatred for the guy anymore, I don't know that he's even a top 50 coach today.

[CU Tiger]

He is better than coaches who have made multiple BCS Bowls and won National Championships? Someone inform all the athletic directors who are not interested.


Ha yeah what was Florida thinking hiring Meyer, I mean Spurrier was available...and Lou Holtz well he has MNC rings....

Look I get it, you dont like Mike Leach and I am going to bed.

You take Brian Kelly I'll take Sir Pirate and we'll play a decade...there is a reason ML was paid 2MM+ at a school that was far below that price range, they knew what he was.

[RainMaker]

You mean other than Nebraska this year (who is better than anyone Cincy played) and a pair of top 10 teams (at the time) last year?
Cherry-picking a few games doesn't gloss over the fact that he's 11-31 against ranked teams. Brian Kelly is 6-1 the last 2 seasons.

[CU Tiger]

If you're seriously considering Spurrier even a top 30 coach today, you need to just stop now & move on to something you know more about.

I never thought it would be possible that Darth Visor would become so sad to watch that he would become a sympathetic figure but that's what it's come to. His heart isn't in it, I'm not sure his head is up to it anymore either frankly.
It's so bad that there really aren't many people who can work up a good hatred for the guy anymore, I don't know that he's even a top 50 coach today.

Sadly, I agree completely.
I mean the guy still has the knack an when he is against a wall he can stll get it done, see Clemson this year....but week in and week out his teams are unprepared, underacheive, and largely apathetic and uninspired.

[CU Tiger]

Cherry-picking a few games doesn't gloss over the fact that he's 11-31 against ranked teams. Brian Kelly is 6-1 the last 2 seasons.


Are we talking year end ranking or time of play?
Sure South Floria looked good week 2 as did Rutgers....

[bhlloy]

Yup, it's actually very difficult to recruit well in Texas for a second tier program. 75% of the top players in the state are a lock to go to UT and there are a bunch more top programs either very close or that routinely make a habit of snatching up the guys that don't go to the Longhorns.

I would almost certainly be anywhere else in SEC country, the midwest or on the west coast if I was a program of Techs stature.

Like Atocep says, it's an amazing thing that Leach has been able to put together so many winning seasons with classes like that and it's a testament to his coaching ability.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Cherry-picking a few games doesn't gloss over the fact that he's 11-31 against ranked teams. Brian Kelly is 6-1 the last 2 seasons.

At least he's played 40+ ranked teams. That's quite likely more ranked teams than Kelly has seen in person.

And how is pointing out your error over just the past two seasons "cherry picking" but it's okay to mention Kelly being 6-1 in the same time span? And with all but one of those wins against teams that are/were just barely in the top 25 to boot? The wins Leach has over Texas & Oklahoma are exponentially more impressive than beating the likes of UConn, South Florida, and Rutgers.

[Karlifornia]

lol...Darth Visor.

[RainMaker]

Ha yeah what was Florida thinking hiring Meyer, I mean Spurrier was available...and Lou Holtz well he has MNC rings....

Look I get it, you dont like Mike Leach and I am going to bed.

You take Brian Kelly I'll take Sir Pirate and we'll play a decade...there is a reason ML was paid 2MM+ at a school that was far below that price range, they knew what he was.
I have no problem with Mike Leach. I think he's a good coach. I don't put him on the same level as those other guys though. I think he's Bill Snyder v 2.0. A guy who implemented an innovative offense at a lower tier BCS school and scheduled a lot of cupcakes to ensure a bowl invite every season. He snags an upset every once in awhile and makes everyone happy.

He's a perfect fit at Texas Tech. Just as he would be at a number of schools who aren't prominent and need something unique to give them an edge over teams. I still don't think that approach translates well against much better talent (and the record shows that).

And I'm not the only one here. The guy isn't in high demand. He's not being brought up in conversations surrounding major programs. For such an elite coach, don't you find that a tad odd?

[RainMaker]

Recruiting classes by rivals along with conference finish.


Recruiting class Conference Finish
'02 48th - 10th T - 4th
'03 44th - 9th T - 6th
'04 33rd - 7th T - 3rd
'05 37th - 6th T - 2nd
'06 25th - 5th T - 5th
'07 52nd - 10th T - 5th
'08 45th - 10th T - 1st
'09 33rd - 6th T - 4th

This is at a school that was recruiting far worse before Leach arrived.

Depends what service you look at. You're using Rivals while Scout has them much higher for virtually every season. You're also giving them the high end of every tie. Your 1st place mark last year when they were actually the 3rd bowl slot out of the conference. I've marked the ties to show where they would fall instead of just picking the high end of it. This also has Scouts ratings.

'02 14th - 4th (5-6)
'03 37th - 6th (6-7)
'04 17th - 4th (3-4)
'05 36th - 5th (2-3)
'06 17th - 4th (5-7)
'07 44th - 8th (5-8)
'08 59th - 12th (1-3)
'09 30th - 4th (4-5)

So they averaged around the 5th best class over the years and finished on average just about 4th in the conference. When you factor in that two of his worst recruiting classes haven't had time to have an impact on his record, it's even closer than you think. He does a good job with what he gets.

[RainMaker]

At least he's played 40+ ranked teams. That's quite likely more ranked teams than Kelly has seen in person.

And how is pointing out your error over just the past two seasons "cherry picking" but it's okay to mention Kelly being 6-1 in the same time span? And with all but one of those wins against teams that are/were just barely in the top 25 to boot? The wins Leach has over Texas & Oklahoma are exponentially more impressive than beating the likes of UConn, South Florida, and Rutgers.
If you play a team enough you're bound to beat them at some point. I pointed out their record against not only Oklahoma and Texas, but ranked teams as a whole. It's not good. There is no way to sugarcoat it.

It's funny you want to use those big wins to build your case but then not use that same criteria on a coach like Houston Nutt who beat the National Champion Florida Gators last year in the Swamp. The same Houston Nutt who spanked that great Texas Tech team in a bowl game last year.

[BishopMVP]

Meyer and Leach's offense are not much alike at all. From the line splits to the routes they run. And Meyer's gimmick didn't crumble against top teams in big games.13 points vs. LSU and 13 points vs. Alabama with the perfect QB for the offense. 24 points vs. Oklahoma to win the NC last year. Florida has been winning with defense for since Meyer got there. Texas Tech meanwhile put up 24 on Texas (2nd most allowed) 31 vs. Nebraska (11 more than anyone else) and 41 vs. Oklahoma (again 11 more than anyone else) this year. They also averaged 39 points per game last year vs. top 10 teams (UT, Ok, Ok St) and put up 34 on Ole Miss in the bowl game, 77 vs. Texas/Oklahoma in 2007, etc. with 3 star recruits at best (other than Crabtree). He was also an OC in the SEC for 2 years (1997, 1998) and Kentucky averaged 27 and 33 ppg respectively in conference games. (An inexact comparison, but) Florida averaged 26 ppg this year in the SEC.Leach's offense is cute and puts up some amazing stats against the no-names they play OOC every year. They're able to spread them out and outrun most teams. But that shit won't fly in the SEC where everyone has speed and you know it.Hahaha. I wish the Hey CUM! thread was still available because you're almost saying verbatim what Skydog said about Meyer. (And no, we're not saying he's one of the top coaches in the coutry, but arguing that his offense wouldn't work in the SEC is clearly a fallacy.)But he's paid to be a football coach and that's it. Having the kid stand in a shed did not help the football team in any way and he has no business doing it.If the player is undermining his authority by publicly refusing to participate in drills and privately trying to convince teammates to slack off, then yes, punishing him publically and making an example out of him is the only choice he had unless he wanted to lose his entire team. Since he did it under medically accepted guidelines I can't understand why this is a deal at all. And trying to compare it to withholding water from dehydrated players is a joke.The NCAA doesn't really punish major schools so Kiffin is safe. He may be a moron but he's got an incredible staff and is recruiting great. Saban and Meyer are better as mentioned and I'd definitely throw Spurrier, Miles, Richt, Nutt, and Petrino out there as better coaches more qualified to recruit and coach in the SEC.Miles might be the one guy I'd put on roughly the same plane.Les Miles was 28-21 at Oklahoma St. and made his name with 2 upsets of Oklahoma - his only 2 wins in 8 tries vs. Texas and OU. He was also 1-3 vs. Texas Tech and Leach. Houston Nutt.... wow. He's the epitomy of an underachieving, perpetual .500 coach.Brian Kelly beats ranked teams, Leach doesn't.:confused: Brian Kelly lost when he played WV in 2007, lost when he played Oklahoma and VT in 2008. He's got an overtime win over a WV that finished ranked #23 in the country last year and wins over teams currently ranked 16,17,18 (although Oregon St at least will plummet). Leach and TT have beaten 4 teams that will/did finish higher than that in the last 4 years alone - Nebraska this year, the eventual #4 and 16 teams last season (Texas, OK St), and eventual #8 OU in 2007. If you want to cherry-pick numbers that equate playing a team ranked 23-25 with one in the top 10, or use ranking at the time teams played, go ahead.The guy isn't in high demand. He's not being brought up in conversations surrounding major programs. For such an elite coach, don't you find that a tad odd?He's a weird dude, doesn't fit anyone's stereotype of a football coach and is a nightmare for AD's because he doesn't care about taking orders or saying the right things. But the man can coach football, particularly offense, and if I was a non-elite BCS team I would take him as a coach of my team any day of the week.

[RainMaker]

13 points vs. LSU and 13 points vs. Alabama with the perfect QB for the offense. 24 points vs. Oklahoma to win the NC last year. Florida has been winning with defense for since Meyer got there. Texas Tech meanwhile put up 24 on Texas (2nd most allowed) 31 vs. Nebraska (11 more than anyone else) and 41 vs. Oklahoma (again 11 more than anyone else) this year. They also averaged 39 points per game last year vs. top 10 teams (UT, Ok, Ok St) and put up 34 on Ole Miss in the bowl game, 77 vs. Texas/Oklahoma in 2007, etc. with 3 star recruits at best (other than Crabtree). He was also an OC in the SEC for 2 years (1997, 1998) and Kentucky averaged 27 and 33 ppg respectively in conference games. (An inexact comparison, but) Florida averaged 26 ppg this year in the SEC.
We aren't really comparing Big 12 defenses to those in the SEC? Florida had a down year after they lost some of their biggest weapons. Talentwise, I wouldn't put them that high up in the SEC in terms of offense this season. Like I've said, I just don't think that offense will translate all that well in the SEC. The defenses are just too fast.

Hahaha. I wish the Hey CUM! thread was still available because you're almost saying verbatim what Skydog said about Meyer. (And no, we're not saying he's one of the top coaches in the coutry, but arguing that his offense wouldn't work in the SEC is clearly a fallacy.)
Meyer and Leach don't run the same offenses. While they are both called "the spread", they are vastly different philosophies and approaches to the offensive game. Florida runs a spread option that relies heavily on the QB running the ball while Texas Tech does none of that. To compare the two is just nonsense.

If the player is undermining his authority by publicly refusing to participate in drills and privately trying to convince teammates to slack off, then yes, punishing him publically and making an example out of him is the only choice he had unless he wanted to lose his entire team. Since he did it under medically accepted guidelines I can't understand why this is a deal at all. And trying to compare it to withholding water from dehydrated players is a joke.
There are a lot of things that fall under medically accepted guidelines. Phoning his Mother and calling her a dirty whore is medically accepted but certainly not becoming of a head coach of a major university. His job is to coach football, not make public disgraces out of players. If he doesn't like the player, then cut him from the team. Suspend him for the season. What he did had nothing to do with football and everything to do with embarassing a kid he didn't like. It's not the first time he's pulled stunts like this either. I'm certain that there are schools that would allow this but Texas Tech said they no longer wanted a coach like that representing their university. I'm not sure why this is such a big deal. No one screamed at Leach when he was negotiating hard with TT last year and threatening to leave the program.
Les Miles was 28-21 at Oklahoma St. and made his name with 2 upsets of Oklahoma - his only 2 wins in 8 tries vs. Texas and OU. He was also 1-3 vs. Texas Tech and Leach. Houston Nutt.... wow. He's the epitomy of an underachieving, perpetual .500 coach.:confused:
Les Miles beat Florida at the Swamp last year and kicked the shit out of the great Mike Leach in a bowl game with TT best team ever.

Brian Kelly lost when he played WV in 2007, lost when he played Oklahoma and VT in 2008. He's got an overtime win over a WV that finished ranked #23 in the country last year and wins over teams currently ranked 16,17,18 (although Oregon St at least will plummet). Leach and TT have beaten 4 teams that will/did finish higher than that in the last 4 years alone - Nebraska this year, the eventual #4 and 16 teams last season (Texas, OK St), and eventual #8 OU in 2007. If you want to cherry-pick numbers that equate playing a team ranked 23-25 with one in the top 10, or use ranking at the time teams played, go ahead.
Brian Kelly took a team to a BCS game in his 3rd year at a school that has never been good at football. He was a bad pass interference call in the Big 12 Championship Game away from playing Alabama for the title. Leach mustered a 5-3 record in the Big 12 in one of the conferences weakest seasons in recent memory.

He's a weird dude, doesn't fit anyone's stereotype of a football coach and is a nightmare for AD's because he doesn't care about taking orders or saying the right things. But the man can coach football, particularly offense, and if I was a non-elite BCS team I would take him as a coach of my team any day of the week.
You pretty much described half the top coaches in college football. You have to be a little odd with an ego to be an elite coach. Most schools don't give a shit what a guy does or what kind of nightmare he'll be as long as they feel he'll win them a lot of games. His name isn't being mentioned on the shortlist of any major programs these days and from the looks of it, Texas Tech didn't even really want the guy either. We'll have to see where he ends up, but I don't think it's going to be as good a situation as Texas Tech was for him. My guess is he sits a year and ends up at a mid-level program.

[BYU 14]

Depends what service you look at. You're using Rivals while Scout has them much higher for virtually every season. You're also giving them the high end of every tie. Your 1st place mark last year when they were actually the 3rd bowl slot out of the conference. I've marked the ties to show where they would fall instead of just picking the high end of it. This also has Scouts ratings.

'02 14th - 4th (5-6)
'03 37th - 6th (6-7)
'04 17th - 4th (3-4)
'05 36th - 5th (2-3)
'06 17th - 4th (5-7)
'07 44th - 8th (5-8)
'08 59th - 12th (1-3)
'09 30th - 4th (4-5)

So they averaged around the 5th best class over the years and finished on average just about 4th in the conference. When you factor in that two of his worst recruiting classes haven't had time to have an impact on his record, it's even closer than you think. He does a good job with what he gets.

Recruiting services are a joke guys and driven by politics, so I wouldn't even introduce them to this argument. I have seen their workings up close for years and they favor players interested in Colleges that have affiliate websites and also pump kids up that go to their camps/combines, (and of course there is money involved on many of these)

One of our players last year went to a coaches sponsered (free) combine over one of the "big two" on the same weekend and one of the reps told him that he could have gotten another star if he had gone to their combine instead. Funny how just showing up makes you a better athlete.

Rivals and Scout are for the fans and most College Coaches put little to no stock in them.

[Samdari]

Abuse? Are you kidding me?

If this was abuse, Bear Bryant would be in jail. Vince Lombardi would receive the death sentence.


Yeah, because its definitely still the 60's.

[gstelmack]

He runs a gimmick offense that usually gets throttled against good teams (something Leach doesn't schedule).

Ask Texas about that gimmick offense.

[Atocep]

More letters about Adam James and in support of Leach from former players and coaches.

E-mails in support of Mike Leach - CBSSports.com (http://dennis-dodd.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6270202/19238949/1)

[BYU 14]

More letters about Adam James and in support of Leach from former players and coaches.

E-mails in support of Mike Leach - CBSSports.com (http://dennis-dodd.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6270202/19238949/1)

These say a lot about James as a person and coming from former players / coaches I put a lot of stock in them, since they are unsolicited and these individuals stand to gain nothing.

[BYU 14]

These say a lot about James as a person and coming from former players / coaches I put a lot of stock in them, since they are unsolicited and these individuals stand to gain nothing.

Dola, I wonder when we are going to start seeing more of these quotes showing up on ESPN, instead of the same quote from the DT (who is probably a friend of James) over and over?

[Samdari]

they are unsolicited

With Leach involved, I sincerely doubt this.

[BillJasper]

I'm in the Leach camp on this one. There was nothing wrong sending the kid to the shed. Nothing in the shed to aggravate the concussion.

Part of going to college is growing up. At some point these kids are going to have to provide for themselves and whatever companies they work for aren't going to let them fool around everytime they have a headache.

[Samdari]

whatever companies they work for aren't going to let them fool around everytime they have a headache.

Really?

Real jobs don't have sick time? Companies don't have policies prohibiting managers from questioning employees about why they used it? (medical privacy and all).

[larrymcg421]

Those e-mails don't necessarily do a good job of defending Leach.

Several of them talk about how often Adam James was injured, even one of them saying he "claimed to have a concussion". Isn't Leach's side using a doctor's note in their own defense?

Also, it seems like the e-mails are suggesting that James deserved the punishment, yet Leach's own defense is that it wasn't a punishment. he was just looking out for the kid's best interests. Which is it?

Also, I love the comments about how James isn't a D-1 player. How is that relevant at all? You mean Leach can do whatever he wants to the kid because he didn't deserve to be there in the first place?

I have no problem believing that James is a whiny, spoiled prima donna, but every time I hear Leach's side of the story, I begin to question it more and more.

[CU Tiger]

Les Miles beat Florida at the Swamp last year and kicked the shit out of the great Mike Leach in a bowl game with TT best team ever.

Really? I thought lst year was TT best team ever, and Les Miles was busy stomping a mud hole in GT last bowl season as I recall.


Brian Kelly took a team to a BCS game in his 3rd year at a school that has never been good at football. He was a bad pass interference call in the Big 12 Championship Game away from playing Alabama for the title. Leach mustered a 5-3 record in the Big 12 in one of the conferences weakest seasons in recent memory.

LOL....Ok, Brian Kelly took Cincy to a BCS game by winning the Big East. A Bowl game where he played the ACC champ and got killed, in a horrible year for the ACC (which is the laughing stock of college football right now, admitedly) But I would still argue that the top HALF of the ACC would win the BE....


You pretty much described half the top coaches in college football. You have to be a little odd with an ego to be an elite coach. Most schools don't give a shit what a guy does or what kind of nightmare he'll be as long as they feel he'll win them a lot of games. His name isn't being mentioned on the shortlist of any major programs these days and from the looks of it, Texas Tech didn't even really want the guy either. We'll have to see where he ends up, but I don't think it's going to be as good a situation as Texas Tech was for him. My guess is he sits a year and ends up at a mid-level program.
Really?
If you think ML is no more unusual than half the top coaches in college football we might as well just stop. If that is your honest position your are either intentionally obtuse or so ill informed it is not worth continuing.

[digamma]

Florida's loss was to Ole Miss in 2008. Meyer has owned Miles.

Rainmaker, please stop.

[Radii]

Was this anyone else's first thought when hearing that Leach had allegedly banished someone to a closet?

"I... I can't even look in you. Go sit in the portalet for 20 minutes"

"WHY IS THE DOOR OPEN? CLOSE THE DOOR. STAY IN THERE"

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[SirFozzie]

He had done something only three other coaches had done at the same time. Take Texas Tech to 10 straight bowl games. I'd say with the challenges he was facing, that says at the least he's a very good to elite coach.

[Senator]

I am starting to think that RAINMAKER is really just HORNSMANIAC 2.0

[BYU 14]

With Leach involved, I sincerely doubt this.

You honestly think Leach contacted all those people? What would their motiviation be to defend him in that case. The players are gone and there are no ramifications to saying no.

You may convince me that a couple of the coaches were either contacted or stepped up out of sense of obligation. Even at the HS level loyalty is a big thing and throwing others in the fraternity under the bus without a VERY good reason can get you blackballed.

Leach is a strange cat for sure, but I really don't see him as devious and underhanded.

[RainMaker]

Really? I thought lst year was TT best team ever, and Les Miles was busy stomping a mud hole in GT last bowl season as I recall.
I mean Houston Nutt who beat Florida and Texas Tech last year.

[TexasT]

Let's see an English professor who gets judged on what English Bowl the school gets invited to, and also one where English majors regularly show up with concussion symptoms.

I think the doctor's note pretty much puts Leach in the clear.

Agreed!!

[RainMaker]

He had done something only three other coaches had done at the same time. Take Texas Tech to 10 straight bowl games. I'd say with the challenges he was facing, that says at the least he's a very good to elite coach.
And that would make Gary Barnett a God for taking Northwestern to a Rose Bowl. As well as Dan Hawkins who took a little known Boise State team to prominence. Both those schools have much more challenges than Texas Tech yet I wouldn't call either of those coaches elite.

Listen, I'm not saying Leach is a bad coach. He's good, in fact, really good. He could coach 80% of the teams in this country. My point is that I don't think he is an elite football coach who would translate well to a major program. He's a guy better suited for building up a disadvantaged program than he is for leading an elite one. I think June Jones is a really good coach who will make SMU a really good team, but I don't think his style would translate well in the SEC. There is a big difference in coaching lesser known schools with little expectations as opposed to coaching a powerhouse where you have to win 10 games a season along with beating your rivals regularly.

[RainMaker]

Dola, I wonder when we are going to start seeing more of these quotes showing up on ESPN, instead of the same quote from the DT (who is probably a friend of James) over and over?
You won't. ESPN loves this story. It gives them a good 5 minutes on every SportsCenter to make up for a rather ho-hum Bowl season. The network is ridiculous these days and is far from being journalistic.

My problem with the e-mails is they seemed to be all reciting the same talking points. Just find it odd that all these people would randomly send an e-mail in saying almost the same exact things. Not saying Leach had anything to do with it, but it could have been a pro-Leach supporter within the school or a booster.

[dawgfan]

UW also had interest. He'll easily land at a BCS school.
UW had some interest in him until they interviewed him. Leach is a smart guy and a pretty good coach, but his personality will make it difficult for him to find a high-level job. Not to mention the issues he's had with the AD at Tech - that will give pause to most school looking for a coach.

I'm sure some program that is looking for a big spark and is more tolerant of risk will give him a shot, but he's not going to have an easy time finding a good job.

[MacroGuru]

UNLV has an opening and I think they would be willing to take a chance on him.

[BYU 14]

UNLV has an opening and I think they would be willing to take a chance on him.

They would take him in a second. An even better fit if they hadn't just hired Brady Hoke would be San Diego State. Long a mystery why they have not been better with the recruiting base they have, Leach would turn them into a top none AQ school for sure.

[BishopMVP]

We aren't really comparing Big 12 defenses to those in the SEC? Florida had a down year after they lost some of their biggest weapons. Talentwise, I wouldn't put them that high up in the SEC in terms of offense this season. Like I've said, I just don't think that offense will translate all that well in the SEC. The defenses are just too fast.Sure, let's compare. Leach faced 3 of the top 8 defenses in FBS and put up the numbers I posted (24, 31, 41 points). Kansas State is another team that had a top 20 defense in the other 11 games, but gave up 739 yards and 66 points to a TT team with a QB starting his first game (aka Leach doesn't need multiple 1st-round picks or have down years - he plugs guys in and keeps leading the nation in passing). Meyer faced 2 top 20 defenses (Alabama and LSU) and scored 13 points in each. Florida also played 2 defenses between 21 and 42 and put up 23 vs. SC and 24 vs. UT.

And that basic offense has appeared in the SEC - Hal Mumme's Air Raid at Kentucky - of which Leach was the offensive coordinator for 2 years. And those teams had no trouble scoring.Meyer and Leach don't run the same offenses. While they are both called "the spread", they are vastly different philosophies and approaches to the offensive game. Florida runs a spread option that relies heavily on the QB running the ball while Texas Tech does none of that. To compare the two is just nonsense.Yes, we all know the difference between an offense that relies on QB read options and one that focuses on short passes, but it's the same basic philosophy - spread the other team out, isolate 1v1 matchups. And they're dismissed for the same exact reasons - "gimmick" offenses that "could never work in the SEC" due to "team speed".His job is to coach football, not make public disgraces out of players. If he doesn't like the player, then cut him from the team. Suspend him for the season. What he did had nothing to do with football and everything to do with embarassing a kid he didn't like.I didn't realize Mike Leach made this incident public. Is singling out a kid to run laps or wind sprints publically embarassing them now too?Les Miles beat Florida at the Swamp last year and kicked the shit out of the great Mike Leach in a bowl game with TT best team ever.No. If you're talking about Ole Miss then Texas Tech with its "gimmick offense that would never fly in the SEC" put up 469 yards and 34 points in a game they allegedly had the shit kicked out of them.Brian Kelly took a team to a BCS game in his 3rd year at a school that has never been good at football. He was a bad pass interference call in the Big 12 Championship Game away from playing Alabama for the title. Leach mustered a 5-3 record in the Big 12 in one of the conferences weakest seasons in recent memory.If you're talking about Brian Kelly making the BCS in his 3rd year, then that was last year and Mike Leach/Texas Tech was 5 spots higher in the BCS rankings than Cincinnati. And Cincy wasn't a Texas loss away from making it - TCU would have been higher. But other than that, I don't see what any of this misdirection has to do with Brian Kelly (who you should know I think is a really good coach and am hoping will quickly change this stat) never beating a team ranked higher than 16th while Mike Leach has done it at least once in each of the last 3 seasons.

[RainMaker]

BishopMVP, we will bump this in the offseason and show all the major programs offering him jobs. I say he's not major program caliber, you say he is. Lets see what the major programs have to say this offseason. That'll determine who is right.

[Swaggs]

But I would still argue that the top HALF of the ACC would win the BE....



I would love to see you make that argument with a straight face.

I think you can reasonably say that the top two teams in the ACC (GT and VPI) would have competed for the Big East title this season, but you can turn around and say that Cincy probably could/would have won the ACC this season, as well. Cincy won the close ones this season, while GT and VPI did not.

Beyond that, I think Miami hangs in a tier with Pitt and WVU. Clemson, BC, UNC, and Florida State are probably a hair behind that group with Rutgers, UConn, and USF. Those ten teams are all above average, but aren't really striking fear into the hearts of any elite teams this season.

Only the hugest of ACC homers would claim that the top half of the ACC would finish ahead of a 12-win Cincy this season. The Big East and ACC are relatively even conferences at this point and, as much at folks want to argue it, after the SEC, the other five BCS conferences are all pretty similar in strength. The Massey Ratings (http://www.mratings.com/cf/compare.htm), which compiles different computer rankings bare this out:

PAY COF D1A CLA LAZ ARG ALB ALD WLK MTN Rank, Conference ASH HOW BIH IMS ACU SOR KMV RYN DOL SAG PSR MAU HKB BPI MAS Rank, Team KRA WOB RUD MAO RTB HAT SEL KEE FMG MEA BSS AND MAA KEL SAU Rank, Team COL MCK WEL TRX ISR PGH WOL SOL STH ABC JNK BOB REW RFL MAR Rank, Team RTH KKM VRN SCH KNT TR BIL MJS SLN MB BAS DUN WAS WIL DOK Rank, Team RTR SE DCI DES MGN SP DP PIG RT CFN REI OMY AP GBE CSL Rank, Team CA CPA ONV PFZ RWP DKC LAW MOR GRN CTW DC2 DEF DEZ COV KLK Rank, Team BRN USA CGV KAM SFX MRK MKV HAR NOL BDF PBI LEG GUN CPR OAF Rank, Team NUT CMV MRS FEI GM SNS GRL GMP ACR Mean

1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 Southeastern 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 SEC 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 SEC 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 SEC 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 SEC 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 5 1 1 1 SEC 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 3 1 1 1 SEC 1 5 1 1 1 1 1 5 1 1 1 6 1 3 2 1 SEC 1 2 1 1 1 2 1 2 1 33.47
2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 2 2 2 Pac 10 2 4 2 4 3 2 2 3 2 2 3 3 4 3 5 2 P10 2 3 5 2 2 2 2 3 2 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 P10 2 2 3 5 1 2 2 2 3 2 3 3 2 2 3 2 P10 2 3 3 2 3 3 2 3 3 2 2 2 5 2 2 2 P10 3 2 2 4 3 2 3 2 4 2 4 4 1 3 3 2 P10 2 2 1 2 2 4 4 3 2 4 3 3 1 3 2 2 P10 3 1 4 4 3 3 2 1 3 3 2 1 4 1 1 2 P10 3 1 4 3 2 4 2 1 4 40.88
3 3 3 3 4 3 2 2 3 5 3 Big East 4 2 3 2 4 3 3 2 4 4 2 4 5 2 3 3 BE 3 2 3 3 3 3 3 6 3 2 3 3 3 3 4 3 BE 3 3 2 2 3 3 3 3 6 3 2 5 3 3 4 3 BE 3 2 2 5 2 2 3 2 2 3 5 5 3 3 5 3 BE 2 3 3 1 2 5 5 4 3 3 5 5 2 2 2 3 BE 3 3 3 3 3 2 5 5 3 2 5 2 2 2 6 3 BE 6 2 2 6 4 2 6 2 2 4 6 2 6 2 4 3 BE 6 3 3 5 3 1 5 3 5 44.08
4 5 4 4 3 4 4 4 5 3 4 Big 12 5 3 5 3 2 5 4 5 3 5 4 2 2 5 4 4 B12 5 6 2 5 5 6 5 2 5 4 4 5 4 4 5 4 B12 4 4 4 3 6 5 5 5 2 6 4 4 6 6 2 4 B12 5 4 4 4 5 4 5 4 5 6 3 3 4 5 3 4 B12 4 5 4 6 5 3 2 3 2 4 2 2 7 4 4 4 B12 5 5 6 4 5 5 3 2 5 3 2 5 4 4 3 4 B12 2 7 3 2 2 5 3 7 4 2 3 7 2 5 6 4 B12 2 5 2 6 5 7 3 5 2 47.24
5 4 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 4 5 Atlantic Coast 3 5 4 5 6 4 5 6 5 3 5 5 3 6 2 5 ACC 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 5 4 6 5 6 5 5 3 5 ACC 5 5 6 6 4 4 4 4 4 4 6 2 5 4 5 5 ACC 4 6 6 3 6 6 4 6 6 4 4 6 2 4 4 5 ACC 6 4 5 5 6 4 4 5 6 5 3 3 6 6 6 5 ACC 6 4 5 5 4 6 2 4 4 6 4 6 7 6 4 5 ACC 4 6 6 3 5 6 4 6 6 5 4 4 5 4 3 5 ACC 5 4 6 2 6 3 4 6 6 48.11
6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 Big 10 6 6 6 6 5 6 6 4 6 6 6 6 6 4 6 6 B10 6 5 6 6 6 5 6 4 6 5 6 4 6 6 6 6 B10 6 6 5 4 5 6 6 6 5 5 5 6 4 5 6 6 B10 6 5 5 6 4 5 6 5 4 5 6 4 6 6 6 6 B10 5 6 6 3 4 6 6 6 5 6 6 6 3 5 5 6 B10 4 6 4 6 6 3 6 6 6 5 6 4 5 5 5 6 B10 5 3 5 5 6 4 5 3 5 6 5 5 3 6 5 6 B10 4 6 5 4 4 5 6 4 3 51.66


EDIT: That format is horrible because it is a huge amount of data -- better to check the above link and scroll to the bottom to see the rankings and indexes.

[BishopMVP]

BishopMVP, we will bump this in the offseason and show all the major programs offering him jobs. I say he's not major program caliber, you say he is. Lets see what the major programs have to say this offseason. That'll determine who is right.Except I never said anything of the sort. He's an elite offensive mind who hasn't coached defense particularly well, is an extremely odd man (not just arrogant and egotistical, which is normal for a football coach, but a weird dude) who is currently (or soon to be) engaging in multiple lawsuits against his (former) school and AD. Particularly since he was let go after most of the major coaching searches were finished I don't think he'll be getting any offers from major schools this offseason. But I don't presume to predict what AD's will do since based on body of work alone he is more accomplished than Les Miles when he was offered the LSU position after going 28-21 (16-16 in the Big XII) and particularly Gene Chizik when he was offered the Auburn job after going 5-19 (2-14 in Big XII).

[DaddyTorgo]

Except I never said anything of the sort. He's an elite offensive mind who hasn't coached defense particularly well, is an extremely odd man (not just arrogant and egotistical, which is normal for a football coach, but a weird dude) who is currently (or soon to be) engaging in multiple lawsuits against his (former) school and AD. Particularly since he was let go after most of the major coaching searches were finished I don't think he'll be getting any offers from major schools this offseason. But I don't presume to predict what AD's will do since based on body of work alone he is more accomplished than Les Miles when he was offered the LSU position after going 28-21 (16-16 in the Big XII) and particularly Gene Chizik when he was offered the Auburn job after going 5-19 (2-14 in Big XII).

but he's more toxic from a PR-standpoint. If you're a recruit and you're looking at what went on at Texas Tech is that really a guy you want to go play for, or your parents want you going to play for? That stigma will stick - I think especially because of the ESPN connection of the James family.

[Swaggs]

Leach is going to need to resolve this lawsuit before any BCS program will touch him as a HC. He absolutely needs to restore his "good name" before being able to recruit effectively. The more I hear, the more I think that, while he didn't handle things very well, he didn't get a fair shake on this.

[sooner333]

but he's more toxic from a PR-standpoint. If you're a recruit and you're looking at what went on at Texas Tech is that really a guy you want to go play for, or your parents want you going to play for? That stigma will stick - I think especially because of the ESPN connection of the James family.

If a recruit wouldn't want to play for me because of this, I wouldn't want him on my football team.

[Swaggs]

If a recruit wouldn't want to play for me because of this, I wouldn't want him on my football team.

It's easy to say that, but there are a finite amount of resources available in recruiting (time, money, phone calls, etc.). Even if only 20% (I'm guessing the number would be quite a bit higher, especially after other teams begin bringing it up to parents), are influenced by it, it is still pretty crippling to spend those resources, only to find out that nothing you say or do will help get a foot into the door with some recruits. It's also easy to say that if you are recruiting to Florida, Alabama, Texas, Oklahoma, USC, etc., but not so much when you are in the next tier or two down from them.

[JonInMiddleGA]

That stigma will stick - I think especially because of the ESPN connection of the James family.

Depending upon how this ultimately plays out, there may not be an ESPN connection to the James family when all is said & done.

If it ends up the way it's been going, I can't see how James could keep his job if he's thoroughly discredited as anything more than a parent trying to use his influence to attack a coach who was fed up with his whiny lazy kid.

[DaddyTorgo]

Depending upon how this ultimately plays out, there may not be an ESPN connection to the James family when all is said & done.

If it ends up the way it's been going, I can't see how James could keep his job if he's thoroughly discredited as anything more than a parent trying to use his influence to attack a coach who was fed up with his whiny lazy kid.

did i miss some news where it came out that the kid was whiny and lazy and not legit?

[sooner333]

did i miss some news where it came out that the kid was whiny and lazy and not legit?

Well, it's obviously an opinion, and Leach has said it. I believe Graham Harrell said it as well. As did the current Inside WR Coach for Tech (I guess instead of a TE coach, they just have an Inside and Outside WR coach).

Also, as an aside, Dennis Dodd wrote an article in his blog bashing ESPN's coverage of this because of the James connection. He also said that there's a rumor that James was considering running for Senate. I don't see this helping at all.

[JonInMiddleGA]

did i miss some news where it came out that the kid was whiny and lazy and not legit?

Where you been?

In a letter last week to Texas Tech administrators Riley called James "unusually lazy and entitled." ... Riley wrote that James is the type of person who makes "excuses or blames people for things that go wrong in his life."
Texas Tech coach Lincoln Riley, once critical of Adam James, now offers support - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/bowls09/news/story?id=4786270)

You could have easily missed it though, since it was buried under a story headlined something to the effect that "TT assistant coach supports James".

Yeah, he "supports" him since he's technically still a part of the team at the moment. But he also spelled out pretty clearly -- and pretty obviously at the risk of his own job with a university who wanted a nice, neat hatchet job on his old boss -- that the kid is a spoiled candy ass.

[DaddyTorgo]

hmmm i see. well i suppose that changes my read of leach's future job prospects to some degree - once he gets the situation all resolved and stuff

[Abe Sargent]

Well, it's obviously an opinion, and Leach has said it. I believe Graham Harrell said it as well. As did the current Inside WR Coach for Tech (I guess instead of a TE coach, they just have an Inside and Outside WR coach).

Also, as an aside, Dennis Dodd wrote an article in his blog bashing ESPN's coverage of this because of the James connection. He also said that there's a rumor that James was considering running for Senate. I don't see this helping at all.

I searched and could not find it. Link?

[SirFozzie]

Another side to the Leach/Texas Tech story - CBSSports.com (http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6270202/19274638)

[BishopMVP]

but he's more toxic from a PR-standpoint. If you're a recruit and you're looking at what went on at Texas Tech is that really a guy you want to go play for, or your parents want you going to play for? That stigma will stick - I think especially because of the ESPN connection of the James family.I'm sure other coaches will whisper it and try to recruit against him, but considering the general practices of guys like Mangino, Meyer, Kelly, Weis, Saban, Rodriguez to name 6 I've heard worse about, I don't think it will fly. As long as ESPN isn't successful in their quest to bury what actually happened* these actions are par for the course at worst at pretty much any major college football program. How many nice guys are coaching major college programs at this time? Maybe Mack Brown, Pete Carroll, idk is Joe Paterno considered a nice guy? And Texas Tech's administration really doesn't have a leg to stand on considering they hired Bobby Knight to coach basketball and he's been documented physically assaulting his own players.

I will agree he's more toxic from an AD standpoint considering he's suing his school, and I don't see why they would hire him if there's another comparable candidate.

* My take - James says he has a concussion, shows up at practice refusing to run drills and wearing sunglasses. Leach tells him to take his sunglasses off, put his helmet on and stop causing a distraction to the other players. James refuses, Leach says if you need to avoid sunlight, go stay indoors in that equipment room for the length of practice. I coach HS lacrosse, not D1 college football, and we're much more lenient and less disciplinarian than most schools we compete with, but if a kid was using injury as an excuse to get out of parts of practice that wouldn't aggravate the injury we'd send him back inside to get "medical attention" too.

[sooner333]

I will agree he's more toxic from an AD standpoint considering he's suing his school, and I don't see why they would hire him if there's another comparable candidate.


Yeah, but if the general consensus is that he was fired without cause, but it was defined as "with cause" for the sole purpose of not paying him, I don't think it will hurt him that much. Sure, he's suing the school, but he's also owed a lot of money. If the lawsuit is seemingly with merit, then I'm sure that there would be schools that would hire him again. I'm sure you can find coaches who have been terminated "for cause," fought the decision, and landed on their feet elsewhere.

[digamma]

Beyond that, I think Miami hangs in a tier with Pitt and WVU. Clemson, BC, UNC, and Florida State are probably a hair behind that group with Rutgers, UConn, and USF. Those ten teams are all above average, but aren't really striking fear into the hearts of any elite teams this season.



This is funny because Pitt and WVU both had losses to middle or lower tier ACC teams.

I'll admit that the good gentleman from Clemson's statement may have been over the top, but I also feel pretty confident that the top four in the ACC (GT, VPI, Miami and Clemson) would have competed pretty favorably with the top 3 or 4 in the Big East.

Also, the Big East is always going to have an inherent advantage in conference computer rankings because of the 8 team size. With the extra non-conference games (most spent on cream puffs) the whole conference gets a ratings boost.

[Abe Sargent]

Another side to the Leach/Texas Tech story - CBSSports.com (http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6270202/19274638)

Thanks!

[Logan]

Thought it was interesting how just maybe 15 minutes ago, while watching the Liberty bowl, the ESPN crawl said that according to an affidavit, the trainer Pincock "says Leach instructed him to 'lock' WR Adam Jones in a dark place."

Then only a few minutes later, in the halftime coverage, Rece Davis reads over a screen with the affidavit in writing, "Leach further said something to the effect that he wanted me to tell James that I was to 'lock' (him in a dark place)."

Does anyone see two of the problems with how ESPN is reporting this, just in this instance alone?

[BYU 14]

Thought it was interesting how just maybe 15 minutes ago, while watching the Liberty bowl, the ESPN crawl said that according to an affidavit, the trainer Pincock "says Leach instructed him to 'lock' WR Adam Jones in a dark place."

Then only a few minutes later, in the halftime coverage, Rece Davis reads over a screen with the affidavit in writing, "Leach further said something to the effect that he wanted me to tell James that I was to 'lock' (him in a dark place)."

Does anyone see two of the problems with how ESPN is reporting this, just in this instance alone?

Yeah, it's called biased and shoddy reporting. Amazing how just leaving out a couple of words here and there completely changes the context of the story. I don't even listen to or read their coverage anymore. CBSsports.com seems a bit more reliable at this point.

[RainMaker]

My problem with CBS Sports is that they seem to have a few columnists and they tell them all to take different points of view for the sake of argument. It's like that on every major off-field issue on the site.

[TexasT]

Was at the game tonight and when the players walked off the field at half time, the stands erupted in some of the loudest boos I've ever heard when Adam James walked by. I have no sympathy for the kid because I'm of the opinion he's a spoiled brat who's constantly whined to Daddy Craig about not playing enough.
There were lots of t-shirts with Team Leach on the front and a picture of a closed door on the back which said " Real Men Aren't Afraid of the Dark". Hilarious! Numerous banners and posters about Adam, most of which aren't g-rated.
Btw, great game!

[RainMaker]

Was at the game tonight and when the players walked off the field at half time, the stands erupted in some of the loudest boos I've ever heard when Adam James walked by. I have no sympathy for the kid because I'm of the opinion he's a spoiled brat who's constantly whined to Daddy Craig about not playing enough.
There were lots of t-shirts with Team Leach on the front and a picture of a closed door on the back which said " Real Men Aren't Afraid of the Dark". Hilarious! Numerous banners and posters about Adam, most of which aren't g-rated.
Btw, great game!
Sounds like the fans are as classy as the former head coach.

[BishopMVP]

Yeah, but if the general consensus is that he was fired without cause, but it was defined as "with cause" for the sole purpose of not paying him, I don't think it will hurt him that much. Sure, he's suing the school, but he's also owed a lot of money. If the lawsuit is seemingly with merit, then I'm sure that there would be schools that would hire him again. I'm sure you can find coaches who have been terminated "for cause," fought the decision, and landed on their feet elsewhere.At a certain point it's not about whether the lawsuit has merit but merely about the fact he's willing to engage in a lawsuit against his school, deserved or not.

Again, I don't presume to know what AD's think since multiple coaches with A)terrible records B) no track record and/or C) a list of NCAA violations have been hired, but quite simply if there you were an AD and there was a coach who was known for consistently antagonizing his AD why would you hire him?

As to your last point, I'm sure I'm ignorant/blanking, but I can't think of previous football coaches that sued their school over a non-technical/buyout point. The coaches I can remember that are "caught"/"punished" have ended up going from BCS contenders to directional schools (usually in Florida).

[Honolulu Blue]

Btw, great game!

As a fan of the other half of the show, we acknowledge your approval.

[cougarfreak]

Sounds like the fans are as classy as the former head coach.

Sounds to me like the kid is reaping what he sowed...........

[Chubby]

At a certain point it's not about whether the lawsuit has merit but merely about the fact he's willing to engage in a lawsuit against his school, deserved or not.

Again, I don't presume to know what AD's think since multiple coaches with A)terrible records B) no track record and/or C) a list of NCAA violations have been hired, but quite simply if there you were an AD and there was a coach who was known for consistently antagonizing his AD why would you hire him?

As to your last point, I'm sure I'm ignorant/blanking, but I can't think of previous football coaches that sued their school over a non-technical/buyout point. The coaches I can remember that are "caught"/"punished" have ended up going from BCS contenders to directional schools (usually in Florida).


So a coach isn't allowed to enforce his contract but the school can?

[RainMaker]

Sounds to me like the kid is reaping what he sowed...........
Complaining that he thought being locked in a shed was inappropriate? The kid didn't fire him, the AD did.

[RainMaker]

So a coach isn't allowed to enforce his contract but the school can?
He is, but it makes you less desireable to other schools. Just like any boss would be skeptical about hiring an employee who was engaged in a lawsuit against his previous employer.

[TexasT]

Complaining that he thought being locked in a shed was inappropriate? The kid didn't fire him, the AD did.

He wasn't "locked" in there, he was put in there with staff members because it was cooler and he needed to be out of bright light, per doctor's advice. If he had been "locked" in a shed others would have brought this to light long before. He's just a spoiled kid looking for attention because Daddy thought he wasn't being played enough.

[Dr. Sak]

I love how Craig James, who was one of the reasons that SMU got the death penalty, is all up in a coaches ass about his kid not being played. My dislike for him allows me to be anything but fair to either party in this situation.

[CU Tiger]

I would love to see you make that argument with a straight face.

I think you can reasonably say that the top two teams in the ACC (GT and VPI) would have competed for the Big East title this season, but you can turn around and say that Cincy probably could/would have won the ACC this season, as well. Cincy won the close ones this season, while GT and VPI did not.

Beyond that, I think Miami hangs in a tier with Pitt and WVU. Clemson, BC, UNC, and Florida State are probably a hair behind that group with Rutgers, UConn, and USF. Those ten teams are all above average, but aren't really striking fear into the hearts of any elite teams this season.

Only the hugest of ACC homers would claim that the top half of the ACC would finish ahead of a 12-win Cincy this season. The Big East and ACC are relatively even conferences at this point and, as much at folks want to argue it, after the SEC, the other five BCS conferences are all pretty similar in strength. The Massey Ratings (http://www.mratings.com/cf/compare.htm), which compiles different computer rankings bare this out:



Ok, I will make the argument, but pardon me if I am wearing a bit of a smirk instead of a straight face.

Cincy was 12-0, and they did every thing they could to prove themselves, for that they deserve credit. However their lone impressive win was against Oregon St, that win aside they beat 3 other over inflated Big East team and a few lesser oponents (dont give me Fresno state is l33t crap).

There only worthwhile competition was Florida who destroyed them, but I will give them a total pass with the Tebow last game, Myer, Kelly gone distractions.

For Cincy it comes down to a matter of opinion. And I think GT, VT, Clemson, Miami all handle them easily by 10+.

WVU and Pitt each lost to lower half ACC teams this year.

Now to your specific points.
GT was 5-0 in games decided by 5 points or less and won them all.
VT did lose 2 of 3 decided by 5 points or less
And Cincy was 3-0.

Thats a pretty big leap to say Cincy won the close ones while GT and VT did not. Honestly neither Cincy nor VT really had many close ones, while GT was the cardiac kids.

Beyond that, I think Miami hangs in a tier with Pitt and WVU. Clemson, BC, UNC, and Florida State are probably a hair behind that group with Rutgers, UConn, and USF. Those ten teams are all above average, but aren't really striking fear into the hearts of any elite teams this season.


Obviously I am going to defend Clemson here, and I think that was your point just to raise my ire a bit.

But Miami hangs with Pitt and WVU, while Clemson et.al are behind.
Clemson beat Miami head to head, Destroyed NCSU that was Pitt's only loss for much of thee season (and their only ACC opponent until the bowl game) and handled an FSU team easily that carried their coach off the field after whipping WVU.

But you relegate Clemson to the likes BC (who we beat had to head and held to less than 100 yards of total Offense), FSU (beat head to head), UNC (who shock is not any good) Rutgers, Uconn, USF...nice

Clemson was probably the 3rd best ACC team this year, they lost twice to GT, once to TCU, and had 2 embarrassing indefensible losses. That is about as good as can be expected with a freshman QB and a first year coaching staff.

But yes, I think Clemson, VT and GT and probably Miami would roll Cincy who is "clearly" the class of the Big East.
I think FSU, UNC, and even Wake Forest would give Cincy a run for their money and I would rate any of those games as a toss up.

So thats 6 teams, or half of the ACC.


Oh and FWIW, I am not all googly eyeed with the SEC beyond 1&2 either.

[DeToxRox]

Mike Leach needs to go to Washington State. It's close to the Pacific Ocean and God knows I'd want him as close as possible to any Somalian Pirates who might float over onto American soil.

Plus, Wazzou is a pit and Leach would have them respectable, no doubt about it.

[Chief Rum]

As to your last point, I'm sure I'm ignorant/blanking, but I can't think of previous football coaches that sued their school over a non-technical/buyout point. The coaches I can remember that are "caught"/"punished" have ended up going from BCS contenders to directional schools (usually in Florida).

Neuheisel.

[cougarfreak]

Complaining that he thought being locked in a shed was inappropriate? The kid didn't fire him, the AD did.


Are you related to Craig James?

[Blackadar]

Reading this thread is just...wow. It's funny and sad at the same time.

According to some people, there must be conspiracy to get Leach fired between Adam James, Craig James, ESPN, the AD and the chancellor, while current players must be getting paid off to bad mouth Leach to the press (Swindall, Charbonnet, Carter).

[Logan]

Reading this thread is just...wow. It's funny and sad at the same time.

According to some people, there must be conspiracy to get Leach fired between Adam James

Described as lazy by teammates, has quit on a team before, and has already (at best) exaggerated the story when he said he was held in an electrical closet with guards at the door.

Craig James

Listens to his son, tries to support him. Possibly tried using his job to get his kid more PT.

ESPN

I've already shown how they are inaccurately reporting this.

the AD and the chancellor

Financial reasons for how they've acted.

while current players must be getting paid off to bad mouth Leach to the press (Swindall, Charbonnet, Carter).

And there are players supporting him, past and present. Not everyone likes their coach, whether they are a boy scout or not.

But thanks for playing.

[dawgfan]

I love how Craig James, who was one of the reasons that SMU got the death penalty...
First, I think Craig James is probably guilty of the bad-mouthing of him as an intrusive parent meddling with the Tech coaching staff to lobby for his son, and has used his position with ESPN to help slant the story.

That said, it really bugs me when I see people piling on and accusing James of being part of the reason SMU got the death penalty. Proof please? To my knowledge, he's never been named as a player that got paid off. If you have evidence to the contrary, please share and I'll back off.

If not, can we kindly refrain from lying about James? What he's done in the case of his son and Tech is plenty to vilify him - there's no need to make up stuff to further smear him.

[dawgfan]

And there are players supporting him, past and present. Not everyone likes their coach, whether they are a boy scout or not.
Have you read what current players have said? That he changed this year? Makes sense that former players would support Leach - even the current players are basically saying it was this season that things started to go South between Leach and the players.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I do think it's interesting and informative to see how united the current players seem to be in backing James and taking shots at Leach.

[dawgfan]

Mike Leach needs to go to Washington State. It's close to the Pacific Ocean and God knows I'd want him as close as possible to any Somalian Pirates who might float over onto American soil.

Plus, Wazzou is a pit and Leach would have them respectable, no doubt about it.
As a Washington fan, I hate this idea. Because you're right - he'd turn that program around.

Though it should be noted that Leach would be a 6+ hour drive from the Pacific Ocean if he were in Pullman...

[Chief Rum]

Have you read what current players have said? That he changed this year? Makes sense that former players would support Leach - even the current players are basically saying it was this season that things started to go South between Leach and the players.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I do think it's interesting and informative to see how united the current players seem to be in backing James and taking shots at Leach.

Actually, I haven't and was just looking for them. I didn't find any quick links in the thread here or in a couple of the regular sports sites. Do you have any links?

I don't have a dog in it, either. I will just throw out, though, that players--non-seniors anyway--have every reason to be supportive of the current administration/university stance, since their education and football futures are at risk. We have already seen, too, how the current interim coach is throwing Leach under the bus.

I would guess, as with most any situation involving a large group of disparate, thinking individuals, there is a divide of opinion on the team.

[JonInMiddleGA]

... players--non-seniors anyway--have every reason to be supportive of the current administration/university stance, since their education and football futures are at risk.

FTR, those quoted were two juniors and a senior (who acknowledged issues between him & Leach in the past).

[Dr. Sak]

If not, can we kindly refrain from lying about James? What he's done in the case of his son and Tech is plenty to vilify him - there's no need to make up stuff to further smear him.

If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck...it's a duck to me. I'll smear him all I want. He thought it was hilarious to pile on Joe Paterno when he had a few bad years calling him and old fart and other senile names on National TV without an apology. So excuse me if I want to pile on someone who was apart of the ONLY College Football team in history to get the death penalty and the years he was a 'star' with them was right in the heart where there was a booster slush fund that paid the players.

[dawgfan]

http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/news/story?id=4792320

Granted, this is reported from ESPN, so there's every reason to be suspicious of bias, especially when they mention a number of players unwilling to go on the record with their criticisms of Leach.

As well, the Senior quoted also admits he has not seen eye to eye with Leach in the past.

All that said, I think there's enough evidence to think that there are no innocent parties in all of this - Tech administration and boosters were clearly fed up with Leach and looking for a way out; Leach clearly had had enough of Tech, and perhaps had let that affect his relationship with his players; James and his family clearly seem to have blown out of proportion the "isolation" incidents; ESPN clearly has allowed their relationship with Craig James to color their reporting of the story.

[dawgfan]

If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck...it's a duck to me. I'll smear him all I want. He thought it was hilarious to pile on Joe Paterno when he had a few bad years calling him and old fart and other senile names on National TV without an apology. So excuse me if I want to pile on someone who was apart of the ONLY College Football team in history to get the death penalty and the years he was a 'star' with them was right in the heart where there was a booster slush fund that paid the players.
I guess if you don't care about your own credibility you can smear James all you want. If you can't produce some evidence to back up your contention that James was one of the players getting paid at SMU, then you'll forgive me if I take your opinions with a huge grain of salt, as you clearly don't care about being accurate and accountable.

Like I said, there are plenty of legitimate, verifiable reasons to criticize James. There's no need to add on unsubstantiated conjecture.

[Edward64]

I wanted to know also so I did a quick search. I was not able to find a complete list of players that supposedly received payments/cars etc. Not sure I understand why this is not public info?

Craig James should get the benefit of doubt but it would not surprise me if James was one of those that did get extra benefits in the early 80s.

[CU Tiger]

I thought what made the SMU case so bad, was that it was generally accepted the every player, even non-scholarship players, were receiving illegal benefits.

I know for a fact that when we had to watch those cheeky NCAA after school specials on compliance, SMU was cited by name and video shown of players talking about how it ruined their lives and made seals die in the artic. The point the video made was even if every team mate is doing it you can still be punished.

Given his stature with the team and his socio economic status I always ASSUMED he was right in the middle of it

[RainMaker]

He wasn't "locked" in there, he was put in there with staff members because it was cooler and he needed to be out of bright light, per doctor's advice. If he had been "locked" in a shed others would have brought this to light long before. He's just a spoiled kid looking for attention because Daddy thought he wasn't being played enough.
Your trainer and team doctor disputed that in sworn affadavits.

[Dr. Sak]

My favorites were the ones on betting and tobacco.

[RainMaker]

I wanted to know also so I did a quick search. I was not able to find a complete list of players that supposedly received payments/cars etc. Not sure I understand why this is not public info?

Craig James should get the benefit of doubt but it would not surprise me if James was one of those that did get extra benefits in the early 80s.
The full list was never released. Many of the player names were kept confidential. But as CU Tigers mentioned, the SMU case was so bad because they were literally paying their players like employees. Just giving them a set amount of money on a weekly basis. It wasn't a few individual cases but a system that was in place. They also completely lied about it to the NCAA which pissed them off more.

No one knows for sure if James was involved although it did seem to be a team thing. Being a star on the team I'm sure there were times when he was approached about it. I find it hard to believe this was all going on with all these players and he was oblivious to it.

[Chief Rum]

http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/news/story?id=4792320

Granted, this is reported from ESPN, so there's every reason to be suspicious of bias, especially when they mention a number of players unwilling to go on the record with their criticisms of Leach.

As well, the Senior quoted also admits he has not seen eye to eye with Leach in the past.

All that said, I think there's enough evidence to think that there are no innocent parties in all of this - Tech administration and boosters were clearly fed up with Leach and looking for a way out; Leach clearly had had enough of Tech, and perhaps had let that affect his relationship with his players; James and his family clearly seem to have blown out of proportion the "isolation" incidents; ESPN clearly has allowed their relationship with Craig James to color their reporting of the story.

Cool, thanks.

[MacroGuru]

Your trainer and team doctor disputed that in sworn affadavits.

They both did 180's as they also said different in depo's to Leach's Lawyers to.

[RainMaker]

Texas Tech players describe a different side of fired coach Mike Leach - ESPN Dallas (http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/news/story?id=4792320)

Granted, this is reported from ESPN, so there's every reason to be suspicious of bias, especially when they mention a number of players unwilling to go on the record with their criticisms of Leach.

As well, the Senior quoted also admits he has not seen eye to eye with Leach in the past.

All that said, I think there's enough evidence to think that there are no innocent parties in all of this - Tech administration and boosters were clearly fed up with Leach and looking for a way out; Leach clearly had had enough of Tech, and perhaps had let that affect his relationship with his players; James and his family clearly seem to have blown out of proportion the "isolation" incidents; ESPN clearly has allowed their relationship with Craig James to color their reporting of the story.
Caplan is not an ESPN goon. He's a local reporter who has covered the beat in Dallas/Fort-Worth for a long time.

I don't know why any of that is surprising. There have been small stories that have leaked out such as the Edward Britton one and the fat girlfriends one. The guy had an ego and a different way of approaching his players. Probably rubbed a few the wrong way. I just think it's funny that everyone think Adam James was the sole reason that this guy got fired as if he has that kind of power with the school.

[Chief Rum]

Caplan is not an ESPN goon. He's a local reporter who has covered the beat in Dallas/Fort-Worth for a long time.

I don't know why any of that is surprising. There have been small stories that have leaked out such as the Edward Britton one and the fat girlfriends one. The guy had an ego and a different way of approaching his players. Probably rubbed a few the wrong way. I just think it's funny that everyone think Adam James was the sole reason that this guy got fired as if he has that kind of power with the school.

Everyone? I'm not sure there is even an Anyone, much less everyone. Most here seem to agree that the Leach firing was primarily motivated by issues between Leach and the administration, with the James thing just a reason for the school to do it.

[RainMaker]

They both did 180's as they also said different in depo's to Leach's Lawyers to.
No they didn't. They never stated that it was their idea to put him in the shed for medical reasons. I'm refuting TexasT's statement that he was put in their on doctor's advice. Neither statement says that and the sworn affadavit given first stated that they both felt it was inappropriate and served no medical purpose.

These statements are all online so either TexasT isn't following the news or can't read.

[RainMaker]

Everyone? I'm not sure there is even an Anyone, much less everyone. Most here seem to agree that the Leach firing was primarily motivated by issues between Leach and the administration, with the James thing just a reason for the school to do it.
I'm sure money played a role. I do think his ego though was a factor and it went beyond the Adam James incident (although that may be an excuse). There have been a lot of odd stories involving his treatment of players over the year and perhaps there were a lot of players who just didn't like the guy (as we've seen from recent articles with comments from players on the team).

[dawgfan]

No one knows for sure if James was involved although it did seem to be a team thing. Being a star on the team I'm sure there were times when he was approached about it. I find it hard to believe this was all going on with all these players and he was oblivious to it.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if James were involved. But there's a difference between speculating he was involved vs. stating that he was involved as though it were a fact.

[thealmighty]

I love how Craig James, who was one of the reasons that SMU got the death penalty, is all up in a coaches ass about his kid not being played. My dislike for him allows me to be anything but fair to either party in this situation.

Use your other reasons to hate James (there are several) but he was not part of the cheating scandal. He wasn't even going to SMU until his girlfriend decided to go. He followed her.

Maybe I would have a bit more info than others. I was there.

[Dr. Sak]

Right because I'm the only one in this thread that believes those outrageous accusation :rolleyes:

He wasn't even going to SMU until his girlfriend decided to go. He followed her.

So Craig James went to SMU because of his girlfriend and that makes him not apart of the cheating how?

[dawgfan]

There is a subtle but important distinction between saying it's likely that James was part of that scandal due to circumstantial evidence vs. acting as though it were a fact that he was part of the cheating scandal.

[TexasT]

No they didn't. They never stated that it was their idea to put him in the shed for medical reasons. I'm refuting TexasT's statement that he was put in their on doctor's advice. Neither statement says that and the sworn affadavit given first stated that they both felt it was inappropriate and served no medical purpose.

These statements are all online so either TexasT isn't following the news or can't read.

I never said the doctor told them to put him in a shed. What I said was the medical advice was to keep him out of bright light and in a cool place. Are you related to Craig James?

[RainMaker]

I never said the doctor told them to put him in a shed. What I said was the medical advice was to keep him out of bright light and in a cool place. Are you related to Craig James?
You insinuated that this was just the doctor's choice. That the doctors didn't think it was a fucked up move.

Anyways, don't worry. You guys will find another coach who can take you to shitty bowl games every year.

[Axxon]

You insinuated that this was just the doctor's choice. That the doctors didn't think it was a fucked up move.

Anyways, don't worry. You guys will find another coach who can take you to shitty bowl games every year.

C'mon Craig, why so bitter? You won and all.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Anyways, don't worry. You guys will find another coach who can take you to shitty bowl games every year.

Yes Craig and you can watch those games on TV with your precious offspring from the safety & comfort of his apartment in your basement.

[Shkspr]

So Craig James went to SMU because of his girlfriend and that makes him not apart of the cheating how?

Because nobody would admit to being led around by his dick like that when he had the out of claiming he was offered sweet, sweet cash to play for SMU?

[TexasT]

C'mon Craig, why so bitter? You won and all.

:lol: :lol:

[Samdari]

So Craig James went to SMU because of his girlfriend and that makes him not apart of the cheating how?

Its legal for schools to provide recruits with female 'hostesses' to 'show them around campus' as long as it happens on campus. Its only when they go off campus to provide recruits with sex that a recruiting violation occurs.

[Chubby]

I was there.

there we go, end of discussion! forget proving anything, just say you were there and that is that

[Dr. Sak]

Its legal for schools to provide recruits with female 'hostesses' to 'show them around campus' as long as it happens on campus. Its only when they go off campus to provide recruits with sex that a recruiting violation occurs.

Is it legal for school to pay their players while they are in school because this is what the argument is about, not on whether he got sexual favors on or off campus for female hostesses?

[Chubby]

My favorites were the ones on betting and tobacco.

the tobacco one was so lame. i dreaded that class (the NCAA mandated one) because you were ineligible if you failed (was pass/fail and if you missed 3+ classes you auto-failed) and it was only available at 8am of course...

[Kodos]

Guys over on the Indiana boards at Scout are clamoring for us to hire Leach. I've kinda had enough of the Bobby Knight types myself.

[cartman]

I'm out in the Bay Area this week for training, and just heard a rumor that Al Davis is going to bring in Leach for an interview.

[SackAttack]

I'm out in the Bay Area this week for training, and just heard a rumor that Al Davis is going to bring in Leach for an interview.

Somehow that wouldn't shock me.

[dervack]

I'm out in the Bay Area this week for training, and just heard a rumor that Al Davis is going to bring in Leach for an interview.
It makes sense. With all the speed they draft on offense, why not run a spread. Of course, they need better WR and a good QB. But better than running the 3 and out offense.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Wait'll the Raiders draft Tebow :D

[CU Tiger]

My favorites were the ones on betting and tobacco.


LOL YES!
Tobacco ruins lives...stay away from this dangerous killer.

He he

[CU Tiger]

Wait'll the Raiders draft Tebow :D


I actually fully expect the Raiders to draft Jacoby Ford....I mean sure he is only 6'0 on a good day, but he would probably be the fastest (or 2nd fastest) player Davis ever drafted and you know he loves him some speed

[sooner333]

Would Al Davis, an owner who recently had a press conference to fire a coach "for cause" due to insubordination, hire a coach who was just fired "for cause" due to insubordination?

[Cap Ologist]

Would Al Davis, an owner who recently had a press conference to fire a coach "for cause" due to insubordination, hire a coach who was just fired "for cause" due to insubordination?

You're assuming he remembers that he did that.

[Dr. Sak]

I'm out in the Bay Area this week for training, and just heard a rumor that Al Davis is going to bring in Leach for an interview.

It would make total sense because a Raider is a form of a pirate.

[Airhog]

Dan Patrick was talking this morning about how he heard a rumor that the Raiders are going to make a play for Leach. Dan didn't know what coaching position they might hire him for though.

[RainMaker]

I hope they hire him as OC. That system won't work in the NFL but it could fool some teams for a season and make things interesting in Oakland (ala Gary Crowton with the Bears). Problem is that I think you need a somewhat intelligent QB to run it and Russell doesn't fit the bill.

[albionmoonlight]

Is there an NFL QB (even among the sucky ones) less suited to the spread offense than Russell? It seems designed to maximize his weaknesses and minimize his strengths.

Al Davis likes old guys. Maybe Warren Moon can be talked into coming out of retirement.

[flounder]

I'm way out of my depth here, but I thought that one of the strengths of the Air Raid offense is that it's simple to teach. There are only a few basic plays, but by lining receivers up in different spots you can add complexity. The receivers only have to learn a few routes. At the start of the play, they just get told where to line up.

It seems like that is a great idea in college where there is limited practice time, but not so much in the pros. Pros have the time to install a complicated offense already.

[sooner333]

I'm way out of my depth here, but I thought that one of the strengths of the Air Raid offense is that it's simple to teach. There are only a few basic plays, but by lining receivers up in different spots you can add complexity. The receivers only have to learn a few routes. At the start of the play, they just get told where to line up.


Not really. The playbook is small, but so much is based on the quarterback making right decisions. The QB is basically given free reign to audible at all times based on the way the defense is lined up. I would say that smarts is way more important than being able to make the throws.

Russell would be an unmitigated disaster in the Air Raid.

[gstelmack]

Not really. The playbook is small, but so much is based on the quarterback making right decisions. The QB is basically given free reign to audible at all times based on the way the defense is lined up. I would say that smarts is way more important than being able to make the throws.

Russell would be an unmitigated disaster in the Air Raid.

Aside from the spread part, isn't this the Colts' offense?

[sooner333]

Aside from the spread part, isn't this the Colts' offense?

Well, the audible part is, but the offense is simpler in the sense that there are fewer plays.

[BYU 14]

Not really. The playbook is small, but so much is based on the quarterback making right decisions. The QB is basically given free reign to audible at all times based on the way the defense is lined up. I would say that smarts is way more important than being able to make the throws.

Russell would be an unmitigated disaster in the Air Raid.

Exactly, so much is based on the QB and receivers being on the same page as each route has 3-4 sight adjustments based on coverages and pressure. It is easy to learn, but hard to perfect.

[QuikSand]

Ok, here's what we want out of this. Raiders hire Leach to run his offense, that's a no brainer. Then he has to go on a Spurrier-like rant about how he just needs any old guy who knows how to run his system.. and I'm thinking they pluck Kliff Kingsbury out of thin air and make him the starter. Or maybe the guy before him or after him, whatever. This has me as excited as just about anything I have heard in a football offseason in a good while. I want this.

[dawgfan]

Ok, here's what we want out of this. Raiders hire Leach to run his offense, that's a no brainer. Then he has to go on a Spurrier-like rant about how he just needs any old guy who knows how to run his system.. and I'm thinking they pluck Kliff Kingsbury out of thin air and make him the starter. Or maybe the guy before him or after him, whatever. This has me as excited as just about anything I have heard in a football offseason in a good while. I want this.
This would be fun.

I'd also love to see a team say "fuck it" and try the spread option offense and bring in guys like Tebow, Pat White and Dennis Dixon to run it.

[sooner333]

Another issue would be that if they keep Cable, but hire Leach as OC to call plays, then how will Cable, as an OL guy handle Leach's wide OL splits. I mean, it's pretty radical--especially in the NFL.

[NewIdentity]

I would love to see Leach as the Head coach for the Raiders next year. This may be the solution to finally get the Raiders turned around.

[RainMaker]

Not really. The playbook is small, but so much is based on the quarterback making right decisions. The QB is basically given free reign to audible at all times based on the way the defense is lined up. I would say that smarts is way more important than being able to make the throws.

Russell would be an unmitigated disaster in the Air Raid.
It's also largely based on accuracy over arm strength, the exact opposite of Russell's game.

Not that it matters since they'll need 3-4 QBs due to all the injuries they'll have running it.

[DeToxRox]

Zach Thomas is pissed:

Zach Thomas wants to end association with Texas Tech
Posted: Jan 08, 2010 8:20 PM EST

LUBBOCK, TX (KCBD) - A former Texas Tech football player wants to end his association with Texas Tech.

A representative for Zach Thomas, who spent 13 seasons in the NFL as a linebacker, says he wants to end his relationship with Tech including all commercials associated with the university. He also does not want Tech to use his likeness in any way.

Thomas is said to be unhappy about the firing of Mike Leach.

[ISiddiqui]

And it looks like Tuberville is the new Texas Tech coach:

Source: Tommy Tuberville will be next Texas Tech Red Raiders coach - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4811310)

Former Auburn coach Tommy Tuberville will be named the next football coach at Texas Tech, a source close to the search told ESPN.com's Ivan Maisel.

A news conference is set for Sunday at 3 p.m. ET in Lubbock, Texas. Tuberville's family is flying to Lubbock Saturday night, according to the source.

[Grammaticus]

And it looks like Tuberville is the new Texas Tech coach:

Source: Tommy Tuberville will be next Texas Tech Red Raiders coach - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4811310)

Ha ha, they are going to miss Leach pretty soon.

[CU Tiger]

Ha ha, they are going to miss Leach pretty soon.

Given the firing, I think its about the best TT could hope for.

[TexasT]

Given the quick hire, seems they already had the guy in place for some time.