China Tried to Hack Google for Info on Human Rights Activists

[RainMaker]

Google reports China-based attack, says pullout possible - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/01/12/google.china/index.html)

That's kind of big news not just from a business perspective, but a human rights one. Wonder how Google will handle it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I thought it was more "they did hack it", not "they tried to hack it". They just didn't hack into the right part to get what they were looking for.

[I. J. Reilly]

Wonder how Google will handle it.

Drummond said that as a result of the attacks, Google has decided it is no longer willing to consider censorship of its Google site in China and may have to shut down its site and its offices in that nation.

Hopefully that's not an empty threat, but a far as a western company willingly leaving the Chinese market, I'll believe it when I see it.

[Galaril]

Was is this news really I8 think most people would of assumed China has and is caring out these types of operations across the board.

[RainMaker]

Drummond said that as a result of the attacks, Google has decided it is no longer willing to consider censorship of its Google site in China and may have to shut down its site and its offices in that nation.

Hopefully that's not an empty threat, but a far as a western company willingly leaving the Chinese market, I'll believe it when I see it.
I hope it's not either but China seems to be that pie in the sky everyone is chasing.

[jeff061]

Was is this news really I8 think most people would of assumed China has and is caring out these types of operations across the board.

Google is now seriously considering pulling out of China altogether. Pretty big news there and I'm surprised honestly. I figured they had already crossed the point of no return with China, but apparently not.

I hope it's not either but China seems to be that pie in the sky everyone is chasing.

Yeah, that's why I'm very surprised Google would even hint at a pull out with everyone bending over backwards to get into China. The cynic in me(which is most of me) is assuming that there is another financial reason forcing Google's hand and the hack attempt is just a PR friendly scapegoat.

[Swaggs]

Forgive the ignorance, but what does it mean for them to pull out? To physically pull their workers from Chinese soil? To quit allowing ISPs from China to access Google (is that even possible?)? To no longer allow Chinese sites or advertisers?

[Mustang]

Forgive the ignorance, but what does it mean for them to pull out? To physically pull their workers from Chinese soil? To quit allowing ISPs from China to access Google (is that even possible?)? To no longer allow Chinese sites or advertisers?

From what I know Google created a Google search engine for China (Google.CN or something like that). I'd assume pulling out would mean they would shut that search engine down and move on. China's government already filters alot of the internet.

I don't fully understand how this would hurt China though.

[chesapeake]

Essentially, the Chinese government controls the nodes that bring the internet into the country. This allows them to filter out content they don't want the Chinese people to see. It is usually referred to as "The Great Wall" and functions as such.

For Google to not be filtered out by the government, they had to agree to abide by Chinese law. This severely restricts what results their search engine brings back for users. Also, they had to agree to provide information about their users to the government when it was legally sought. What passes for legal in China is very different from what would pass in the US and other Western nations and has raised some serious ethical questions that Google has had to wrestle with.

So, if Google "pulls out" of China, I expect that means that in addition to their offices and other physical footprints being removed from the country, the Chinese government will put Google back on the other side of the Great Wall and most Chinese consumers won't be able to surf to it.

[BrianD]

It wouldn't be all that hard for Google to wall off China either. By adding some filters to their routers, the could block traffic coming from IP addresses assigned to China.

[chesapeake]

I don't fully understand how this would hurt China though.

It costs the Chinese credibility, both internationally and domestically, and other western businesses are going to be less likely to build a presence there.

[Fidatelo]

Keep in mind that Google also indicated that about 20 other major companies were also targeted (they don't mention whether those attacks succeeded or not). This seems like a very big story to me, and I suspect it will snowball over the coming weeks.

[jeff061]

I agree. Hilary has made a brief statement on it:

Statement on Google Operations in China (http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2010/01/135105.htm)

Certainly seems primed to blow up. And you know the media is slobbering all over the prospect of cyber espionage gone public.

[flere-imsaho]

The cynic in me(which is most of me) is assuming that there is another financial reason forcing Google's hand and the hack attempt is just a PR friendly scapegoat.

There's a few factors in play here which have effectively changed Google's public stance from "No, we're not really being evil by complying with the Chinese government" to "OK, we were being evil, and we're going to stop."

1. Google.cn continues to lose ground in the "search" space to Baidu, which is the government-run (and thus heavily favored) search engine. Google has simply not been able to make inroads into this market.

2. Unrelenting attacks by activists on Google's cooperation with China in censorship (including activists who happen to also be shareholders) continue to tarnish its image, and Google does indeed care about its image.

3. Fending off attacks by China costs money, and further in Google's mind (I'm guessing, here), it violates the quid pro quo they thought they had with China when they allowed themselves to perform censorship for China.

4. While China is certainly a big market Google has realized (as a number of other companies now have) that the Chinese government is going to stack the deck so that the government gets the lion's share of revenue & profit, meaning that the "real" size of the market for foreign companies is actually much smaller than it appears (NOTE: this is different from companies using China as a source of labor).

Forgive the ignorance, but what does it mean for them to pull out? To physically pull their workers from Chinese soil? To quit allowing ISPs from China to access Google (is that even possible?)? To no longer allow Chinese sites or advertisers?

Going off the NPR story I heard:

1. Close their offices in China and lay off their 700 Chinese workers.

2. Shutter google.cn.

3. Quit selling ads for the Chinese market (and any other transactions aimed at the Chinese market).

There's been no talk, that I've heard, of Google blocking traffic from China itself (though presumably their security team would block IP ranges from particular known hackers).


I don't fully understand how this would hurt China though.

In the near-term, it won't. In the medium/long-term it could hurt China's ability to attract foreign investment.

If Google really pulls out of China, they'll be sending a very strong signal that, to them, it just isn't worth doing business in that market, with that government. This is a strong message, because Google won't be doing this solely for altrustic reason, they'll be doing it at least in part (and cynics will say mostly in part) because they ran the numbers and came to this conclusion.

In so doing they will join a number of other foreign companies who have also pulled out for reasons that essentially boil down to "it isn't worth it". If you're manufacturing there, maybe it isn't worth it because of a) product recalls due to shoddy work or b) product recalls due to toxicity (pharmaceuticals in particular are pulling out because the ramifications of problems are so severe for them). If you're trying to sell a product there, maybe it isn't worth it because the cut the Chinese government takes affects your margins too much. Etc....

Bottom-line: for the past 10 years (at least) everyone's been desperate to be "in China" because they feel the market is so big they can't afford to ignore it. If Google says that they, in fact, can afford to ignore it, it'll make a lot of other companies really run their numbers and possibly come to the same conclusion.

Keep in mind that Google also indicated that about 20 other major companies were also targeted (they don't mention whether those attacks succeeded or not).

The story I heard indicated that the main target was Gmail, and it has been an ongoing target because the Chinese government wants to hack the Gmail accounts of known activists. However, Google indicated that many other Silicon Valley companies were targeted, but did not name them. Given the closeness of companies in Silicon Valley, I would assume there's a lot of people from security departments working together on this.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Bottom-line: for the past 10 years (at least) everyone's been desperate to be "in China" because they feel the market is so big they can't afford to ignore it. If Google says that they, in fact, can afford to ignore it, it'll make a lot of other companies really run their numbers and possibly come to the same conclusion.

Be careful that your "bottom line" doesn't overlook the single most important thing you said at the beginning

Google has simply not been able to make inroads into this market.

Lots easier to claim the moral high ground & walk away when you're not succeeding than when you are. The revenue they were generating was far below even their own modest estimates for this stage & I think it'd be folly to think that isn't a major driving factor in any decision to play less/stop playing in the market.

[flere-imsaho]

Jon - that's basically what I meant. Maybe I worded it poorly.

My point is that they're not the only company who have looked at their numbers and found they weren't matching their projections. Yet still many companies have stayed in China with poor numbers because of a groupthink which said you "had" to be there, given the size of the market.

If Google walks away it gives a certain level of cover to other companies attempting to sell in China if they want to walk away (or at least decrease their investment). If this happens (if), it'll be a significant development.

[Galaril]

Google is now seriously considering pulling out of China altogether. Pretty big news there and I'm surprised honestly. I figured they had already crossed the point of no return with China, but apparently not.



Yeah, that's why I'm very surprised Google would even hint at a pull out with everyone bending over backwards to get into China. The cynic in me(which is most of me) is assuming that there is another financial reason forcing Google's hand and the hack attempt is just a PR friendly scapegoat.

Was is this news really I8 think most people would of assumed China has and is caring out these types of operations across the board.


Jeff agreed if they pull out it would be a big deal. What I meant was as far as the fact Google was hacked especially by China is no big news flash.

Security experts say Google cyber-attack was routine :
BBC News - Security experts say Google cyber-attack was routine (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8458150.stm)

[Shkspr]

In the name of fairness, security experts also say they would not hit it because her knees are too sharp.

[flere-imsaho]

Here's Google's chief legal officer on Thursday's All Things Considered: Google Executive Weighs In On China, Censorship : NPR (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=122580343)

Somewhat OT: I think that's the most forthcoming interview I've ever heard from a lawyer.