OT: Question For The Religious Among Us

[Swaggs]

Accidentally posted this in the dynasty forum (who knows--maybe it is appropriate there :) ), but thought I would move it here.

Here is the original thread (with a few replies): Original Thread (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=94741#post94741)

and contents:

I have been struggling with an issue on the "afterlife" since I had a death in my family mid-last year and thought that I would post it in hopes that GrantDawg, revrew, or anyone else who has provided counsel in the past.

I am looking for the religious "textbook" answer and any commentary/thoughts/philosophies. Assuming that after you die, there is an afterlife and provided that you are reunited with those that have previously passed, how do/will you perceive the age of those relatives (and they your age) that you are reunited with?

For example, if your mother or father passes while they are in their mid-20s or 30s and you live to be 75 years old, are you an old man while they are still in their relative youth?

[GrantDawg]

We will not be as we are now. I don't think we will appear as any age because we really don't understand what form we will be. Biblically, we will get a new body not made of the flesh (1 Cor 15:35-46), and will be quite different from this one.

[Anrhydeddu]

This is something that I actually spend a lot of time in my life speculating on. Since we will be in spirit form, we will see the true spirit of others. It does become age-independent since the love, joy, goodness, gentleness, etc. can be expressed at any age (without the shield of sin, of course). But the Scriptures does say (I think) that we will know each other in Heaven so I guess that each of us will see each other as we knew them. My wife would see me as I am now while perhaps my grandmother will see me as a youngster. The other part I think about is that we will be living in a big dwelling but I still hope for perfect mountain-top mansion overlooking a beautiful valley leading up to towering mountains. :) This is the blessed hope for the faithful.

One more thing specific to your question. The concept of eternity (and infinity) is a complex one. Since there will be no concept of time, I believe that once a believer passes away, they will be joined in Heaven by all other believers...even though thousands of years may pass here on earth. But at the same time, they are there. Sort of the paradox that infinity or eternity will entail, I believe.

[ice4277]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
One more thing specific to your question. The concept of eternity (and infinity) is a complex one. Since there will be no concept of time, I believe that once a believer passes away, they will be joined in Heaven by all other believers...even though thousands of years may pass here on earth. But at the same time, they are there. Sort of the paradox that infinity or eternity will entail, I believe.

I spend a lot of time thinking about things like this too. I like this idea. I really don't think anyone can know for sure about things like this until they happen, and since God works in such mysterious ways, it seems almost silly to try and guess. But it's interesting nonetheless.

[revrew]

Swaggs,
Thank you for your courage to bring up such a topic. GrantDawg basically hits the biblical answer on this. We get a new body in the afterlife, but as to what it looks like, ????

My guess, just pure speculation, is that since many signs of age are but an expression of the breakdown of the body over time, leading to death...and since death is a force not present in Heaven...age in Heaven would be irrelevant if even present at all. As for Hell, I shudder to think what might happen to a body, even a "new body" in such a place.

[Swaggs]

Appreciate all of the thoughts and research.

I think what I am looking for, more than the bodily appearance, is more about the roles/relationships. Bucc's thoughts (very well said) are close to my own.

I guess the two most difficult items for me to fathom are (beyond the question of physical appearance), one, my soul will play the roles of grandchild, child, spouse, father, and grandfather at the same time and how the age of your life on Earth effects the maturation of your soul (if that makes sense?).

A family member of mine lost both his father (at the age of 42) and his older brother (age 20) when he was very young. Now he is in his mid-50s. His older brother as he knew him was a carefree young man, just back from the war and his father was significantly younger than he is now.

Kind of jumbled thoughts--but that is the simplified synapsis of the background beyond my (somewhat) obsession with this topic.

[wbonnell]

First the spirit of the departed goes through a process lasting 49 days that is divided into three stages called <b>bardos</b>. At the conclusion of the bardo, the person either enters nirvana or returns to Earth for rebirth.

It is imperative that the dying individual remain fully aware for as long as possible because the thoughts one has while passing over into death heavily influence the nature of both the after-death experience and, if one fails to achieve nirvana, the state of one's next incarnation.

Stage one of the Bardo begins at death and extends from half a day to four days. This is the period of time necessary for the departed to realize that they have dropped the body. The consciousness of the departed has an ecstatic experience of the primary "clear light" at the death moment. Everyone gets at least a fleeting glimpse of the light. The more spiritually developed see it longer, and are able to go beyond it to a higher level of reality. The average person, however, drops into the lesser state of the secondary "clear light."

In stage two, the departed encounters the hallucinations resulting from the karma created during life. Unless highly developed, the individual will feel that they are still in the body. The departed then encounters various apparitions, the "peaceful" and "wrathful" deities, that are actually personifications of human feelings and that, to successfully achieve nirvana, the deceased must encounter unflinchingly. Only the most evolved individuals can skip the bardo experience altogether and transit directly into a paradise realm.

[AgPete]

I'm not much of a Christian, but I do fit the category your thread asks for - religious. :) On a daily basis, I ponder my actions and wonder what their implications will be for any life after death. Everyone seems to have their interpretation of the Bible or other religious doctrine, but it seems to me if God had a clear plan he/she/it would have laid it out in more detail. I figure the best we can do is live our lives to the fullest and follow the golden rule. If anyone says they have the answer as to what exists in the afterlife, I think they're lying or fooling themselves, because the only way we'll ever truly know is by dying. Here's to hoping there is something after this existence. Seems like an awful waste if we're allowed to ponder these things only to vanish into oblivion after our death. :)

[wbonnell]

I don't know about others, but the concept of oblivion blows my mind. If I put deep, serious thought into it, I actually feel a bit of fear. Think how desperately hopeless life would be if one knew there truly was no nirvana...

Personally, I don't think "organized" religions have the answer though its followers seem especially certain (don't under estimate man's desire to hope). Nonetheless, though the concept of a nirvana or a heaven is heartening while an eternal hell is terrifying (does anybody really believe this in their heart?).

[ACStrider]

Hey wbonnell...I work at the Target in round rock...small world.

Anyway, it is an interesting topic regardless of your religious perspective. Anytime you deal with the unknown and the infinite, it's bound to twist your mind a bit (or more like a lot). I'll go with your note Mr. wbonnell and run with it a bit. I don't think anyone can truly completely comprehend the nature of the afterlife. I believe beyond any doubt that there is an afterlife, a heaven, a hell and a creator, but do I fully comprehend any of those things? Absolutely not. When I sit down and read the words of the prophets of the Old Testament and particularly the insightful Revelation by John, I see people with a difficult task in front of them. I imagine myself trying to see things through their eyes and putting it into words. At some point (and I'm sure that point comes very quickly) words fail, because these matters are beyond human discription.

I guess the thing I can always fall back on is the assurance of the joy, quite literally beyond my belief, that I will have when I am with my creator.

[Airhog]

hmm this is a really interesting thing.

My gf believess in rebirth. she believe that you have to repeat life to pay for your mistakes before you are allowed into the afterlife. However she doesnt believe that you are born into animals, and she thinks that your number of rebirths is a set number.

I wish I could believe in multiple lifes, but I tend to think that you live once, and if you meet the requirements you go to heaven, if you dont meet the requirements you go to hell. Of course everyone has their own requirements :D

[wbonnell]

Has anybody ever analayzed why they believe in a heaven and a hell? IMO, it's likely because they were reared with one of the "big 3" religions. As I said earlier, a Muslim has no more idea than a Buddhist, a Christian no more than a Hindu...

[wbonnell]

Originally posted by ACStrider

I guess the thing I can always fall back on is the assurance of the joy, quite literally beyond my belief, that I will have when I am with my creator.

I think this is called hope. You are willing to believe something for which you have no proof because it engenders hope and purpose.

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by Swaggs
Appreciate all of the thoughts and research.

I think what I am looking for, more than the bodily appearance, is more about the roles/relationships. Bucc's thoughts (very well said) are close to my own.

I guess the two most difficult items for me to fathom are (beyond the question of physical appearance), one, my soul will play the roles of grandchild, child, spouse, father, and grandfather at the same time and how the age of your life on Earth effects the maturation of your soul (if that makes sense?).

A family member of mine lost both his father (at the age of 42) and his older brother (age 20) when he was very young. Now he is in his mid-50s. His older brother as he knew him was a carefree young man, just back from the war and his father was significantly younger than he is now.

Kind of jumbled thoughts--but that is the simplified synapsis of the background beyond my (somewhat) obsession with this topic.

Again, hard to gauge how realtionships will work because we will be in a different state (and I'm not talking about Georgia). When answering the Sadducees (who did not believe in the Ressurection and were trying to trap Him), Jesus revealed that we would not be married in Heaven but will be in "as the angels." (Matt. 22:23-33)

wbonnell, it is a thing called hope. Faith is the "substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." It is a faith built on the word of one who has been there, Jesus Christ. It is up to us to discover the source of our faith and hope. And as for hell, yes I believe there is a hell as deeply as I believe there is a heaven.

[detroit_fan]

This is a tough one. If you choose to follow Christ I think the Bible paints a pretty good picture on what we will look like after we die. If you recall the story of Christ death you will know that he was "dead" for three days. Upon his return from death, before he ascended to Heaven, He walked the earth in his new glorified body. In the book of Luke we see that Jesus had a solid body and He was able to eat.

"28. By this time they were nearing Emmaus and the end of their journey. Jesus would have gone on, 29. but they begged him to stay the night with them, as it was getting late. So he went home with them. 30. As they sat down to eat, he asked God's blessing on the food and then took a small loaf of bread and broke it and was passing it over to them, 31. when suddenly--it was as though their eyes were opened--they recognized him! And at that moment he disappeared! Luke 24:28-31 (TLB)"

I believe that we will have perfect bodies of bone and flesh. The 24th chapter of Luke (who was a doctor) paints a good picture of what our bodies may be like in Heaven.

[Anrhydeddu]

wbonnell, it is a thing called hope. Faith is the "substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." It is a faith built on the word of one who has been there, Jesus Christ. It is up to us to discover the source of our faith and hope. And as for hell, yes I believe there is a hell as deeply as I believe there is a heaven.

If a QotM shoud exist, this would be my only vote.

detroit_fan: Your view is as mine and while some believe that we will do nothing in Heaven, I point to this passage in saying that we will have "lives", responsibilities, talents and desires. God has made each one of us uniquely and I believe that will carry over into eternity. But the great thing about it is that we will be free from all sin and can display our talents and gifts in a pure way.

[wishbone]

Being LDS, I believe that after death we will have spirit bodies until the resurrection when the spirit and body are joined again forever. As far as how we will see or know people, I guess (not having thought about this specifically until now) that we will recognize them as the same people we knew before we came to Earth. I believe in a Pre-existence where all of God's children lived with him and where we decided to gain physical bodies and be tested.
After death we will go to a spirit world until the judgement and resurrection.

[wbonnell]

I suppose that the primary reason I am not a religious man is because while you all emphatically espouse your religious convictions (learned from your parents and society), I am more skeptical. While I believe it is possible that a heaven exists, I have yet to find a single living person- not under the influence of narcotics- who has seen it.

Why is, say, Judaism so compelling? Can most Jews honestly say they have studied Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Christianity, Shintoism, or Islam as deeply as Judaism?

[ACStrider]

wb...I guess what it comes down to is a question of whether what we know and believe is a result entirely from our surroundings or if we have any role to play at all. If, as you are suggesting, all our beliefs are a result of parents and society, then the position that you are proposing is as well. As a psychology major in college I've seen too many studies and findings which suggest that people can develop beliefs apart from upbringing and surrounding. As for myself, I did grow up in a Christian family and in Christian surroundings but I remain a Christian for reasons apart from these factors. I have seen arguments for and against faith, Christianity and the existance of God and have come to my conclusions based on the evidence. Well, I didn't really even mean to go down this road. I saw it coming a few threads ahead, but for the sake of Swaggs' original question I didn't post until now. I hope he got some of the answers he was looking for.

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by wbonnell
I suppose that the primary reason I am not a religious man is because while you all emphatically espouse your religious convictions (learned from your parents and society), I am more skeptical. While I believe it is possible that a heaven exists, I have yet to find a single living person- not under the influence of narcotics- who has seen it.

Why is, say, Judaism so compelling? Can most Jews honestly say they have studied Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Christianity, Shintoism, or Islam as deeply as Judaism?

Think you would be shocked at how different my religion is as compared to my parents and how I was raised. Parents often do play a large role in a person's faith, but you are painting with too broad a brush, my friend.

[wbonnell]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
Think you would be shocked at how different my religion is as compared to my parents and how I was raised. Parents often do play a large role in a person's faith, but you are painting with too broad a brush, my friend.

Forget parents. What I really mean is SOCIETY.

I wouldn't be shocked at all- my parents are devout Christians; I am agnostic. You sound like you might be more open-minded than MOST people.

[detroit_fan]

WB - I would venture to say that those people who truly have faith in what they believe will be open-minded and tolerant. The Christ that I have chosen to follow came as a servant and a preserver of personal choice.

Too many of my brothers feel that Jesus should have came as a military-mesiah, they miss the point of why He came. :)

[wbonnell]

The big question for me, though, is why people are willing to essentially sell their eternal soul, so to speak, to a religion without researching other religions. Most Christians I have talked to have little more than a passing knowledge of Buddhism or even Islam for that matter. Isn't that a odd? After all, most of us wouldn't (or shouldn't) buy a $30k car w/o test driving others.

What I see is that people raised as Muslims stay with Islam because they "feel it in their heart and soul". Christians stay with Christ because they "feel him in their soul". Jews stay with Judaism, blah, blah, blah. You see my point? Of course, there will always be exceptions, but, again, I'm generalizing.

Finally, the most important question of all. Who's right? :)

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by wbonnell
Finally, the most important question of all. Who's right? :)

I would say discover for yourself. I think though you do have a handicap in prejudice (and a prejudice that might be fair) that comes from bad examples of some followers of some religions. I can find you bad and good examples of followers of any religion. That doesn't prove the religion false, but it does prove the idea of free will (ok. I just ticked off the Calvinist). Just read the BEST arguements from all sides and see where that takes you.

In ten years of ministry I have never had a problem dealing with those with an open mind. Closed minded people are those whom I never give much time.

[KWhit]

Originally posted by wbonnell


Finally, the most important question of all. Who's right? :)

Great point.

This is what has always confused me. Religious people are always convinced that THEIRS is the only right religion.

My wife is Jewish, and I've had many Christians "politely" tell me that she's going to Hell. Excuse me! That's a great way to get me to NEVER listen to anything you ever say again.

I am not a believer. People used to believe that the rain came from the gods crying and the sun was pulled across the sky by some god's chariot. How could I believe that I found the one, true religion, and that the other billions that believe(d) in something else are wrong. That seems conceited to me.

And if anyone else ever tells me or my wife that we're going to Hell, I'm going to poop on their head.

[wignifty]

Damn, now I'm depressed. I married my wife for her body, not her "spirit," and NOW you're telling me that I'm going to be stuck with her soul for eternity?

What the hell am I going to reach out and grab when the conversation gets boring?