Text Sims, Business Models etc..

[Shaun Sullivan]

Hey guys, I posted on the PureSim Baseball forums today releasing my updated sales numbers, and asking some questions about potentially shaking up the way I approach PureSim releases. It got me thinking that the folks over here would be a perfect crew to canvas.

If you have a chance, take a quick peek at the post. (http://www.wolverinestudios.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8996)

What do you think about the free/cheap base game with premium content / micro transactions model in general? Dungeons and Dragons Online is doing it, as are many other games.

Maybe it's time for games like PureSim to re-think our models? The dynamic of the .99 cent app on iTunes further disrupts the "business as usual" approach. as do FaceBook games like Farmville. Maybe it just does not mesh well with, or compliment our genre, but continually adding incremental new features to PureSim has always been the most comfortable for me as opposed to the release once a year approach.

I know I am rambling...it's 1 part desperation and 1 part fascination...

Thoughts?

[Apathetic Lurker]

Seriously, I think you need to hit the John Deere crowd at Walmart, Kmart and Target. Right now OOTP owns the net crowd. You wont crowd OOTP out. Sure, you will get the odd OOTP crossover but thats never enough.We know how good Puresim is, most never even heard of it. Candy up Puressim a bit and change the name to (something) Tycoon...

[jbergey22]

Well it was released at an odd time. A lot of people are burned out on baseball after a 6 month season and most of them have already bought their baseball sim/s for the year.

I really like PureSim but yes you are caught in the middle. OOTP is a very good game(despite the flaws) and for how terrible I think the game is Baseball mogul gets the more simplistic fans.

I can understand your frustration. You do make a great game its unfortunate for you that the baseball market is so competetive.

Your best bet is to add features that OOTP doesnt have. There is thread after thread about people being disgusted about certain things that OOTP hasnt fixed in the past 5 versions.

The other big issue IMO is that so many people already are in OOTP online leagues that the majority of the leagues are not going to all want to switch.

I believe you are winning the "in-game" battle. Your "in game" AI is much stronger. Take this strength that you have and branch out into "head to head" and online leagues where you actually play out the games and then you are unique in which people will notice.

[Shaun Sullivan]

Very interesting comments.

After playing the Tiger Woods Online Beta for the last few weeks, I am starting to wonder if online/head to head might in fact be where I can differentiate.

Of course there are a whole slew of new technical challenges on that front, but it seems I am stuck in the horse latitudes between Mogul and OOTP and I'm not sure I can ever court the lucrative Strat/DMB crowd without branching off and focusing on nothing but replay.

Another thing I am considering is a casual quick to play iPhone game that would be GM focused. With leader boards/GM ratings etc.. Not sure there is much of a market there though...

[JimboJ]

I like the idea of an iPhone game. There is probably not much of a market now, but I think you can create one. Look how many millions of people use the app store. Every time someone searches on "baseball", your game would come up. I think there are enough fantasy players, and baseball fans in general, that even though they may not be familiar with text sports sims, they may be intrigued enough to spend $5 to try your game. And if they like that, they may be willing to pay $20 for the PC game.

I think your biggest problem is marketing, and this would be a great way to get you exposure to a bigger audience. And the smart phone user base is only going to increase going forward. I think this is something you should seriously consider.

[MizzouRah]

It has to be tough with 3 career baseball sims out there and DMB for replay to boot.

I'm not sure why BM fans haven't come over to your camp yet..

[Flasch186]

Facebook game. Done.

[Apathetic Lurker]

It has to be tough with 3 career baseball sims out there and DMB for replay to boot.

I'm not sure why BM fans haven't come over to your camp yet..

I have an idea why....

BM, besides being easier has more eye-candy. Personally I like it for the finances and stadium building even though it is rather simplistic. I prefer PS for its more realistic gameplay but there is a lot to be said for simplistic games where you dont have to rub too many brain-cells together after a long day at work....

[jbergey22]

I have an idea why....

BM, besides being easier has more eye-candy. Personally I like it for the finances and stadium building even though it is rather simplistic. I prefer PS for its more realistic gameplay but there is a lot to be said for simplistic games where you dont have to rub too many brain-cells together after a long day at work....

Very true. In BM you can easily sim 20 seasons in a few hours and do enough that you think you are influencing your career path.

[MizzouRah]

I have an idea why....

BM, besides being easier has more eye-candy. Personally I like it for the finances and stadium building even though it is rather simplistic. I prefer PS for its more realistic gameplay but there is a lot to be said for simplistic games where you dont have to rub too many brain-cells together after a long day at work....

I find Puresim just as easy and I don't feel like the results are just random numbers.

BM is not a bad game.. I played the heck out of last years game.. but Puresim has come a LONG way over the past few months.

[Young Drachma]

I could go on about this for days...I'll write on your thread over there though.

[Apathetic Lurker]

I find Puresim just as easy and I don't feel like the results are just random numbers.

BM is not a bad game.. I played the heck out of last years game.. but Puresim has come a LONG way over the past few months.


For better or worse I think PS is looked on as a thinking man's game, sort of like FM

[cougarfreak]

All the back and forth moving with developers can't help. Pick something and stick with it. Then your base will grow.

[MizzouRah]

For better or worse I think PS is looked on as a thinking man's game, sort of like FM

That's interesting... I find it extremely easy and very intuitive to jump right into an MLB setup and start playing.

[BYU 14]

Jbergey hit on a real good point, take the flaws of other games and try and do those things well with PS and you can pick up some of those disgruntled folks. Adding Managers with varying tendencies seems to be a big "want" with the PS crowd as an example and the modular approach seems to have support too. I also think you need to get on a release cycle that brings some "new, big" feature to the table when Baseball Season is getting underway and find a way to get the word out cheaply over the internet through search engines and maybe some fantasy league websites that offer cheap banners.

Head to head on the net could be something to look at too. I know there is a thread on the PS boards now talking about table top games and the common theme seems to be that the one thing no computer game fully offers is that feeling of "sitting at the table" with a buddy, dad, etc enjoying a competitive game of strat, APBA whatever. I think Puresim captures the essence of what a lot of gamers love in the table top games that would translate better than any of the other sims out there. Going back to the paragraph above, I think you can pull in some of those that play in fantasy leagues with this feature.

Another thing to keep in mind is your current audience. A poll on your boards showed that most of us that play PS are over 40 and there are a lot of historical simmers that enjoy Puresim. Continue to tweak historical replay value (more errors and complete games in the Deadball era for instance) to keep that core strong and maybe think about some eye candy (ala FM 2010 simple 3D graphics) to maybe bring some younger players in. I know that part not might be worth the effort it takes to program, but just a thought.

[Apathetic Lurker]

That's interesting... I find it extremely easy and very intuitive to jump right into an MLB setup and start playing.


I never said it was difficult to get into...

But I think the perception out there is that more eye-candy is more accessible to the average joe, while something that still has hints of spread-sheet must be more difficult.

off on a tangent: We are in serious need of a puresim-like curling management game....hint hint

[Chubby]

web based game where you pay for seasons (think hattrick but better and baseball :) )

[MizzouRah]

I never said it was difficult to get into...

But I think the perception out there is that more eye-candy is more accessible to the average joe, while something that still has hints of spread-sheet must be more difficult.



I know you didn't think it was.. I guess I'm just shocked some of those BM fans haven't at least tried the demo.. maybe some have?

It's hard to take die hard fans from a series, but I think Shaun needs to be a little patient with Puresim.. Markus didn't have near the fan base he does now back in the early days off ootp and ootp2.

[Qrusher14242]

yeah, by the time it was released, people had already played ootp for months and baseball was over. It's tough to get into baseball after its over. Also, if the game was quicker it might attract more simmers. A lot of people play ootp for just simming and its hard to do in puresim, its just slower.

I wish more people used it, its great for ingame play. Much better than OOTP in that facet. I also like the almanac and the newspaper too.

[sovereignstar]

It's hard to take die hard fans from a series, but I think Shaun needs to be a little patient with Puresim.. Markus didn't have near the fan base he does now back in the early days off ootp and ootp2.

Puresim has been developed since 1998 - maybe earlier. :)

[MizzouRah]

Puresim has been developed since 1998 - maybe earlier. :)

Yes, but it hasn't been a full time job as Shaun juggles PS with his job. What I'm trying to say is becoming a developer with a growing fan base takes time and what Shaun has done since coming to WS will only help his base grow.

I wasn't going to purchase ootp11 since I figured x would be fine.. but I did because after reading the improvements/features of ootp11 again and again, I decided there were some things in there that saving the $10 was a no brainer.

Shaun is working on ps3 and giving it away for all ps2 owners, while that's cool, he should charge for it - as long as he has a nice list of improvements/features.

Just my $0.02.

[lynchjm24]

One thing I would try if I were you is one of the things that Major League Manager tried:

Distribute free copies to the baseball bloggers. The SB Nation type baseball bloggers. There are some blogs out there with pretty good audiences and if you offer them a crack at it for a review on their site......

That is where the baseball dorks who want to grow up to be Billy Beane are located these days. Athletics Nation, River Ave Blues, Viva El Birdos etc....

[SteveMax58]

Shaun...a few thoughts for you.

In-Game development
I would just echo some thoughts that others have posted so far. A focus on online play and h2h (which has to be part of the league play...not just a pickup game) would be the direction I'd go if I were talented enough to do so. Aside from that...find a few more small to medium items that the others dont do well that you can implement well. And just add some minor tweaks/additions that the PS community is looking for.

Business Model
I think you're heading in the right direction with your thoughts...change everything. I'd change my entry point price to sub $10 and charge incremental "option modules" that unlock features. This means you'd need to separate out your "bug" patches and "feature" patches...but so be it. You could still throw a couple of features in the bug patches as you see fit.

I think this would need some fleshing out...but I would think something like this:
Core PS game...$8.99
Includes PureSim Classic & Quickstart, unlimited seasons, latest Lahman DB (and any feature not called out below)

Financials...$4.99
Unlocks all options related to finances including era specific financials, free agency, and team finances.

Multiplayer Leagues...$6.99
Unlocks the ability to export/import online league files & HTML

Online H-2-H Play...$4.99 (perhaps bundle w/ Multiplayer for $9.99)
Unlocks ability to play H-2-H with other players via iPhone, PC, or other supported devices. Can be coupled with Multiplayer Leagues to enable h2h league play or just casual games with other players. Users can play H2H in 1 of 3 modes...Multiplayer League, Casual H2H, & Best "x" Series H2H. Players can use any team they have from any league or Lahman DB in the last 2 options.

Historical Mode...$4.99
Unlocks Real Major League Players mode (besides current year) and allows for all associated options & Replay capabilities.

Bug Fix Updates...FREE for Life!!
This includes functionalities cause game crashes, fundamental AI fixes, or optimizations to the game.

Feature Updates...$5.99/yr
Includes AI/UI tweaks, and any other updates made to the game engine. Includes a minimum of 4 updates or 1 yr...whichever is happens last.

EDIT: I think you'd probably want to kick some of the numbers around and/or "module" suggestions but I think the point is that you need to lower the entry price without giving away all of the features for free. But if you can entice enough people to "take a stab at it"...you may not only increase sales more than the double (which is what you'd have to hope for in my pricing model)...but you'd then likely encourage feature adds/upgrades (or at least the number would presumably be more than zero).

[lynchjm24]

I wonder if there is a publisher who would publish it as a $9.99 bin title at the Walmarts and Target type retailers? Seems like OOTP did pretty well when they rebranded the game as Season Ticket Baseball for a release on CD.

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

First off let me say, I have been following this game when it first started and you have made tremendous strides in developing it. However, the game really hasn't caught on. Now we have to figure out why.

Action PC and DMB fulfill the historical replay niche
Baseball Mogul fulfills the quick and dirty career game niche
OOTP fulfills the more complex workings of baseball niche

Offhand it would seem like Puresim strikes the happy medium between all three or at the very least between Mogul and OOTP, but clearly people are not looking for a middle ground game.

My feelings are price is inconsequential. If people want a game, they will pay upwards of 50 dollars for it and if they don't want it, no price drop is going to lure them as you have noticed.

So the question is what niche are you going to fill? What will lure people to the game? My feeling is the one area all the games are lacking in is the in-game experience I would add simple graphics. Think about how many people have mentioned Microleague and that niche still has not been met by any of these games. This would differentiate you. Also, I would add customizeable sounds to the game. So for instance the game could come with the Harry Caray sound pack and every time a home run was hit youd get a holy cow, every time a strike out would happen he would say his catch phrase for that and so on. And for the people who want different announcers (perhaps hawk harrelson) youd have a setup where it would be easy to replace the sounds. With just these two add-ons, you have a game that is completely different from any other on the market. Now will it work? I don't know. Maybe not enough people would want it, but its not more of the same and as of now Puresim is viewed as more of the same.

I have other thoughts, but I will hush for the time being :-)

[Logan]

Are any of these games available on Macs?

[spleen1015]

Are any of these games available on Macs?

OOTP

[Comey]

H2H wins a very, very large battle. I think, if OOTP had this, it would win the war (for lack of a better term).

The ability to have H2H online leagues would be a *massive* get for any game. I'm not sure if Markus has ever gotten that; after the trials that became OOTP6 or 2007 or whatever, he seemed to have given up on it, his interest in it waned.

I simply cannot state this enough; any baseball or football game that incorporates this will get a big following. The ability to manage and play out our games is that big.

[JonInMiddleGA]

My feelings are price is inconsequential. If people want a game, they will pay upwards of 50 dollars for it and if they don't want it, no price drop is going to lure them as you have noticed.

I think you've got a pretty good point here, at least as far as traditional delivery models on PC go. While the current economy certainly lends itself to microtransactions, I really don't see too many people saying "oh heck, if only Game XYZ was $10 cheaper I'd buy it".


Also, I would add customizeable sounds to the game. So for instance the game could come with the Harry Caray sound pack ...

While sounds could be done, the cost associated with even trying to get the rights from various known voices (or their estates) would be a stone cold killer.

[Celeval]

I think you've got a pretty good point here, at least as far as traditional delivery models on PC go. While the current economy certainly lends itself to microtransactions, I really don't see too many people saying "oh heck, if only Game XYZ was $10 cheaper I'd buy it".

Perhaps... I think for new entries into the market, I'd be certainly more willing to take a shot at a $20 game than a $40 game.

[gstelmack]

I think you've got a pretty good point here, at least as far as traditional delivery models on PC go. While the current economy certainly lends itself to microtransactions, I really don't see too many people saying "oh heck, if only Game XYZ was $10 cheaper I'd buy it".

Steams regular deals put the lie to that. They had some nice numbers after the initial round they did a year ago showing how many more sales / how much more total profit was brought in by running 50% off and 75% off sales, to the point that companies made more money at the $10 price point than they were at the $40 price point. Granted this depends on a distribution service like Steam where anyone on the service sees the sale, but they've made a pretty big point on price point.

See for example: http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/57308. There are other articles around if you want to dig.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Steams regular deals put the lie to that. They had some nice numbers after the initial round they did a year ago showing how many more sales / how much more total profit was brought in by running 50% off and 75% off sales, to the point that companies made more money at the $10 price point than they were at the $40 price point. Granted this depends on a distribution service like Steam where anyone on the service sees the sale, but they've made a pretty big point on price point.

Aren't those sales (as in price cuts, not net sales) largely on dated material that wasn't going to sell any longer at/near full price? If not then I'll willingly stand corrected but that's very much the impression I've gotten from the various posts here highlighting one deal or another on Steam.

[DaddyTorgo]

Could you get PS put up on a service like Steam?

[Icy]

I'm a bit pessimistic about the text sims biz right now, but i think it's a dying one. Just look at current amount of new releases compared with a few years ago. It's been always a niche market, and current crisis forced most of developers to look for a daily job and put text sims development as side hobby. FM an OOTP might be the only full time projects right now.

It seems that most of the text sim buyers are in their late 30 and 40's, that means the consumers base is not growing but are just the same guys still loyal to the concept, in fact i see the same nicks at most of text sims forums.

Younger generations are spoiled by consoles, good graphics, no messing with computer installs etc, and don't care that much about gameplay depth.

I'm even playing more sports games in consoles lately than in pc, as being in my mid 30's, with wife, kid, work, etc, i don't have that much time to play deep games daily, so i also look for the quick satisfaction of loading a game in my PS3 like MLB the show or NBA2k and playing it for like 1 hour, instead of playing text sims or complex wargames for like 3+ hours before.

I also play more game modes like "be a pro" or "road to the show" etc where the lack of proper GM AI is less noticeable than when playing franchise modes in console games, that is where text sims are way better.

After my pessimistic post, about PS, if you want a bigger audience, you might try the web based games biz model, that worked really well for games like hattrick or goal line blitz (heck i expended like $300 on this before getting tired of it), but you will also end with more problems and time needed to support thousands of customers, hosting issues, database optimization, hacking attempts, etc.

[SteveMax58]

Yeah, I think the problem with the higher price point isn't that people who "know" what they are getting arent willing to pay for it...it's that the people who are completely unfamiliar are (at a minimum) less likely to even try it. There may also be an intimidation factor associated with the higher entry price as well (i.e. "this may be too complicated for me if it costs that much").

I realize a counter argument is "that's what the demo is for"...but I dont believe that to be what most (unfamiliar) consumers use it for. The demo (IMHO) really acts as more of a proof of concept, or validation of a functioning game, for somebody that might be considering it. The lower entry cost gives the impulse buyer the "guilt-free" ability to try it at their leisure without having to justify the cost to themselves (most people looking for games can justify $10 on a throwaway purchase whereas $20+ becomes an investment).

[Philliesfan980]

I'm in the crowd of really wanting to like text sims, but quite honestly, after spending 45-55 hours a week at work mainly dealing with financials, spreadsheets, and other tasks of that nature, I just don't have the attention span to deal with it when I get home from work.

I'll be honest - The most fun I've had with a game (Console or PC), was with High Heat's 1 pitch manage only mode. I need some graphics to keep me interested. They can be simplistic and dated (preferably more than what the current text sims do with the "ball flight" stuff), it doesn't matter to me. I just need something to show me what's going on in the field. I realize that some games today have Manage Only modes, but many of them just take too long to play. I tried the Manage Only mode with MLB The Show, and I ended up spending an hour and a half or so per game. Just way too long. I want something that can get through a normal game in 20-25 minutes.

I'm not sure if this would work for logical reasons, but I think releasing this type of game on consoles via the PSN or Live is really the way to go. I'm sure you wouldn't be able to use real MLB players, and to me, I'm not even sure if that's a big deal. But as long as you provide an easy to use (ie, I can input stats and the ratings are assigned automatically) roster editor, I'm sure people would end up creating real rosters.

I figure I'm probably in the minority with this sort of game, but I'd love to see someone do it.

[BYU 14]

Could you get PS put up on a service like Steam?

I would second this, at the very least that type of distribution would get the game more looks..

[Marc Vaughan]

It seems that most of the text sim buyers are in their late 30 and 40's, that means the consumers base is not growing but are just the same guys still loyal to the concept, in fact i see the same nicks at most of text sims forums.
For FM at least our demographic hasn't changes much for the PC title since I started with the company 12+ years ago tbh.

One thing we have done though to try expand that demographic (at both ends) and 'bring through' new blood (so to speak) is to establish the Football Manager Handheld game, its faster to play than the PC version and a little less intensive from a users perspective.

This helps in two ways:

* It brings new blood into the FM family as younger players are more likely to pick it up and give it a go.
* It gives people who might have been hooked on FM PC but now have less time available to play it a route to continue enjoying our games without causing their other half to divorce them ;)

Both are valid areas for us to address imho and I believe the FMH products are realistic, enjoyable and fit that niche nicely.

PS - Available on download from the PSP PSN store now, this has been a public service advert - thank you for listening ;)

[DaddyTorgo]

For FM at least our demographic hasn't changes much for the PC title since I started with the company 12+ years ago tbh.

One thing we have done though to try expand that demographic (at both ends) and 'bring through' new blood (so to speak) is to establish the Football Manager Handheld game, its faster to play than the PC version and a little less intensive from a users perspective.

This helps in two ways:

* It brings new blood into the FM family as younger players are more likely to pick it up and give it a go.
* It gives people who might have been hooked on FM PC but now have less time available to play it a route to continue enjoying our games without causing their other half to divorce them ;)

Both are valid areas for us to address imho and I believe the FMH products are realistic, enjoyable and fit that niche nicely.

PS - Available on download from the PSP PSN store now, this has been a public service advert - thank you for listening ;)

to this end, a PureSim IPhone game (and also an FM IPhone game) would be great. They don't need to be as complex, but they can help bring new players into the franchise.

[Philliesfan980]

Would anyone want to see a game with High Heat style "1 pitch" Manage Only mode? Or am I the only one?

[SteveMax58]

Would anyone want to see a game with High Heat style "1 pitch" Manage Only mode? Or am I the only one?

I would. Earl Weaver & Micro League Baseball had that type of setup as well. I think even simple canned sprite animations like Micro League would be adequate for a simulation game. Enough to look at so you understand what happened but quick enough that you can get thru a game in under 20 minutes (adjustable speed would be better).

[MizzouRah]

Would anyone want to see a game with High Heat style "1 pitch" Manage Only mode? Or am I the only one?

Yes.. that was a great game and I loved the one pitch mode!

[Mota]

I think for sure releasing a game after the baseball season is done, which is based on a version that was given away for free for months is not a recipe for good sales. Think Baseball Annuals that come out every year. They're out in February, hyping the baseball season. If Sporting News came out in October how well would it sell?

Also the history of the game does have an impact as well. OOTP has been relatively stable over the years, published by different companies but in general once a year you'll see an OOTP game. With Puresim it hasn't been that way, has been very sporadic. It's not in people's subconscious memory to have the "need" to buy your game. But if you did release a version of Puresim quality every March, it would become tradition for many people.

Also I agree with everybody on this board about the graphics. If Micro League Baseball could do it in the 80's as well as Earl Weaver Baseball, wouldn't it be possible to put some sort of visual aspect to the game? That would instantly separate it from the other text sims which are competing for our dollars. The first one that gets there will have a huge advantage.

[Young Drachma]

I think for sure releasing a game after the baseball season is done, which is based on a version that was given away for free for months is not a recipe for good sales. Think Baseball Annuals that come out every year. They're out in February, hyping the baseball season. If Sporting News came out in October how well would it sell?

Also the history of the game does have an impact as well. OOTP has been relatively stable over the years, published by different companies but in general once a year you'll see an OOTP game. With Puresim it hasn't been that way, has been very sporadic. It's not in people's subconscious memory to have the "need" to buy your game. But if you did release a version of Puresim quality every March, it would become tradition for many people.

Also I agree with everybody on this board about the graphics. If Micro League Baseball could do it in the 80's as well as Earl Weaver Baseball, wouldn't it be possible to put some sort of visual aspect to the game? That would instantly separate it from the other text sims which are competing for our dollars. The first one that gets there will have a huge advantage.

People are confounding text sims made by studios backed by big publishers versus individual dudes who are essentially hobbyists. I think there could be more collaboration in the community, but I think what ends up happening is the niche market creates weird alliances that end going sour, leaving the hobbyist developers reluctant to partner up again and well, rinse, wash, repeat.

I think marketing is job 1, 2 and 3. The game has changed a ton since the 1990s and while OOTP seems to be dabbling in social media, I still think the potential is greatly untapped. Now could be the golden age of the genre, if people knew these games existed. But they don't.

[cuervo72]

/wonders how much it would cost to have a customized MP version for FOBL programmed

[cuervo72]

Dola - hell, we'd even throw in a team.

[Sgran]

I discovered OOTP about a year ago and recently upgraded from 8 to 10. To be frank, you're not getting me away from OOTP by making a more precise baseball sim. What few warts OOTP has are bearable, and the software itself is remarkably stable. The stats and AI management may not be picture perfect, but they pass the sniff test. I feel like I won't even buy another version of OOTP for several years, even if I have to drop out of my league (okay, that may be a bluff).
If you want my money you're going to have to give me decent graphics of the games playing out. It's 2010 and I strain my eyes enough at work -- I'm tired of reading. This goes for FOF and Wolverine as well: no graphics, no Sgran.

[kenparker23]

Would anyone want to see a game with High Heat style "1 pitch" Manage Only mode? Or am I the only one?

yes, yes, yes. A sim engine and interface like puresim, combined with manager and in-game graphics ( think earl weaver but cleaner and better). You could even have a stadium editor to customize the look and feel of your stadium.

Text sims can only go so far and in the end, I want to see that towering home run leave the park in an accurate, rendered environment.

just my opinion.

[Tim Tellean]

I discovered OOTP about a year ago and recently upgraded from 8 to 10. To be frank, you're not getting me away from OOTP by making a more precise baseball sim. What few warts OOTP has are bearable, and the software itself is remarkably stable. The stats and AI management may not be picture perfect, but they pass the sniff test. I feel like I won't even buy another version of OOTP for several years, even if I have to drop out of my league (okay, that may be a bluff).
If you want my money you're going to have to give me decent graphics of the games playing out. It's 2010 and I strain my eyes enough at work -- I'm tired of reading. This goes for FOF and Wolverine as well: no graphics, no Sgran.

All of Gary's games do have graphics with a moving 2d oncourt display. FOF doesn't because Jim isn't interested in the graphics piece from what I have heard but Gary has Paul and now Ivan/Icy who work hard on the graphics for that eye candy appeal.
I'm just saying....

[the_meanstrosity]

I actually like Flasch's idea of a facebook app (PureSim Lite). Basically a light-weight version of PureSim that is free and thus allows you to get the PureSim name out there to an audience you might normally not have. Some of the other options stated in this thread have merit as well, but the Facebook one makes the most sense to me with the success of the text games like Mafia Wars, Farmville, etc on Facebook.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I actually like Flasch's idea of a facebook app (PureSim Lite). Basically a light-weight version of PureSim that is free and thus allows you to get the PureSim name out there to an audience you might normally not have. Some of the other options stated in this thread have merit as well, but the Facebook one makes the most sense to me with the success of the text games like Mafia Wars, Farmville, etc on Facebook.

On this line of thought, some stats to consider. Of course we all know about Farmville & the incredible numbers it posts but what about lesser games?

The closest one I can think of to something like a hypothetical "PureSim Lite" is the football game Gridiron Live from Challenge Games. My own opinion? The game looked interesting until I realized the engine sucked, the devs break more features than they fix, and it's difficult to be competitive with human players unless you're spending money, all of which add up to a game that probably isn't going to catch on with the FB audience in a huge way. Now fair warning, it's got a graphic component, so it's not a great comparison in that respect either. But it IS a mainstream sport game app, and I haven't seen many of those on FB.

The site All Facebook - The Unofficial Facebook Blog - Facebook News, Facebook Marketing, Facebook Business, and More! (www.allfacebook.com) attempts to track the DAU and MAU stats for all the apps (no, I don't see what they're using for their data source, could be 100% right or 100% wrong for all I know) but FWIW Gridiron Live has a DAU of 8796 and an MAU of 124,044, ranked 580th among all FB apps. They're drawing that traffic in part on the back of a much stronger app (Ponzi) that helps promote all their games but all of them started from somewhere around 0, quite possibly with a number at startup that'd be smaller than what Puresim could have initially with just the FB users at FOFC and his own site followers.

Only Gary could say for sure, but my own imagination is that exposing PureSim to 124,044 people in a year would fall in the category of "a good thing"

[Sgran]

All of Gary's games do have graphics with a moving 2d oncourt display. FOF doesn't because Jim isn't interested in the graphics piece from what I have heard but Gary has Paul and now Ivan/Icy who work hard on the graphics for that eye candy appeal.
I'm just saying....

I think Gary's basketball games are a perfect example. The graphics are just a bunch of shirts moving around. You still have to read. I want to watch the game and see that Ben Gorden isn't getting Stephen Jackson to bite on his headfakes, and that's why his shot is off. I realize that it's asking a lot, but that's what I get from the soccer sims, and one of the other sports games needs to secure some financing and sink some money into this. I want Madden graphics with solid GM AI and career player progression. EA could do this, they just can't be bothered.

[DaddyTorgo]

baseball is different in that regard though...i don't necessarily need to see my guy jogging lazily after the ball.

maybe...pitch locations? i loved when i realized i could see that on OOTP, that added a lot of immersion to me. Baseball Mogul does it too. And there's already a "ball flight" component...so that's fine. IMHO I like the look of the stadiums in PureSim better than those in OOTP (now that I can get them to import easier).

If you want to clean up anything graphically it might be stuff like the FA and draft screens...make them look a little less "spreadsheety" I think. Then again, I like being able to sort by all those options, so I like the spreadsheet functionality, but maybe the look of it could be altered a little.

Advanced statistics...as many as the DB can provide.

[Philliesfan980]

baseball is different in that regard though...i don't necessarily need to see my guy jogging lazily after the ball.

maybe...pitch locations? i loved when i realized i could see that on OOTP, that added a lot of immersion to me. Baseball Mogul does it too. And there's already a "ball flight" component...so that's fine. IMHO I like the look of the stadiums in PureSim better than those in OOTP (now that I can get them to import easier).

If you want to clean up anything graphically it might be stuff like the FA and draft screens...make them look a little less "spreadsheety" I think. Then again, I like being able to sort by all those options, so I like the spreadsheet functionality, but maybe the look of it could be altered a little.

Advanced statistics...as many as the DB can provide.

What I'm looking for is something inbetween what you describe (OOTP graphics - Ball Flight), and what Sgran wants (Madden type graphics). As I mentioned earlier in this thread, High Heat was just fine for me. In fact, having a ton of fancy animations and stuff like that would just make the game take longer.

[KWhit]

Hell, Microleague baseball had the right amount of graphics and that was over 20 years ago!

[cuervo72]

Hell, Microleague baseball had the right amount of graphics and that was over 20 years ago!

Agreed.

[cuervo72]

Actually now that I come to think of it, I tried to interest a friend of mine from HS in FOBL a few months ago; he said that it looked like a nice league but he didn't have that kind of time.

Then he went back to simming MicroLeague games on a C64 emulator.

[KWhit]

The thing that made Microleague graphically interesting is that it created suspense. You didn't know if that liner in the bottom of the ninth was going to drop in or not. And you watched, holding your breath, while your little 2D sprite ran its little ass off trying to catch it with the game hanging in the balance.

Now we just read words. And you can usually tell immediately what the play is going to be by how the text begins.

[Tim Tellean]

I think Gary's basketball games are a perfect example. The graphics are just a bunch of shirts moving around. You still have to read. I want to watch the game and see that Ben Gorden isn't getting Stephen Jackson to bite on his headfakes, and that's why his shot is off. I realize that it's asking a lot, but that's what I get from the soccer sims, and one of the other sports games needs to secure some financing and sink some money into this. I want Madden graphics with solid GM AI and career player progression. EA could do this, they just can't be bothered.

I don't disagree, FM is the gold standard right now but as others pointed out MicroLeague did it 25 years ago (I loved that game) and NFL Challenge did a good job giving you the feeling of action at least with Gary's we do have motion and not static or non-existent as the other "text" sims have, unfortunately the games went in 2 directions with text sims and accuracy or graphics and arcade results (Exceptions of course exist).
I think we'll see a coming together as the PC market dies out for sports sims and the facebook, iphone app etc. take over from the stand alone market.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Interesting article today about social media gaming apps & some numbers from a smallish player in the field (Playdom)

The Economics Of Facebook Games (http://www.socialtimes.com/2010/03/the-economics-of-facebook-games/)

The upshot of it all, based on his own company figures he would discuss?
-- Average development cost is $100k-$300k per app
-- Average conversion to microtransaction payments around 2%
-- Average monthly revenue per paying customer about $20 each
-- Typical marketing cost about 50% of development cost
-- Average cost per install about 50 cents, but as high as $3 per install if a company is pushing hard

edit to extrapolate: So 100k users = 2k paying users X $20 each = $40k per month average revenue per 100k users. And the even the lower end of the FB gaming app upper tier has a user base in the millions.

[Warhammer]

I don't disagree, FM is the gold standard right now but as others pointed out MicroLeague did it 25 years ago (I loved that game) and NFL Challenge did a good job giving you the feeling of action at least with Gary's we do have motion and not static or non-existent as the other "text" sims have, unfortunately the games went in 2 directions with text sims and accuracy or graphics and arcade results (Exceptions of course exist).
I think we'll see a coming together as the PC market dies out for sports sims and the facebook, iphone app etc. take over from the stand alone market.

There's a lot to this. I have gone back to playing NFL Challenge on DOS Box and have had a on of fun playing the computer.

[Marc Vaughan]

edit to extrapolate: So 100k users = 2k paying users X $20 each = $40k per month average revenue per 100k users. And the even the lower end of the FB gaming app upper tier has a user base in the millions.

Just to give a word of warning to people before everyone runs out to hire a poor innocent developer to make them millions via facebook ....

Most successful Facebook development companies appear to either use a well known existing brand or to use a 'throw mud at a wall and see what sticks' approach.

That second approach is simply that a company willl prototype and develop 5+ small games and see which ones gets the largest user base, then cut back to say two initially and develop those further then concentrate ultimately just on the most successful one going forward.

This obviously increases the up-front development costs somewhat and there is ALWAYS the risk that none of the applications developed 'stick' sufficiently to turn a profit - in gaming this is ALWAYS a large risk with any mass market product because there is only room for 'x' number at any time within a market place realistically.

This isn't to say you shouldn't consider moving into this development space - but I just wanted to give a little balance to the rather enthusisastic figures which can get bandied around at times.