Girl Bullied Till She Committed Suicide

[RainMaker]

This has been all over the news and didn't see it posted here. I know there are a few of you who work in the educational system and I'd really be interested in your thoughts. They seem to be just torching the Principal, teachers, and superintendent.

Phoebe Prince, South Hadley High School's 'new girl,' driven to suicide by teenage cyber bullies (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/03/29/2010-03-29_phoebe_prince_south_hadley_high_schools_new_girl_driven_to_suicide_by_teenage_cy.html)

Tough to tell with the sensationalization of the media whether this is typical bullying or something that got really bad. I have a feeling it's the latter. The girl and her parents had reported it to the school multiple times with little to no help provided. Not sure if the DA will win anything other than the statutory rape charges, but they seem to feel this was an extreme case.

I'm sort of torn on this issue. On one hand, it's a free society and this is part of growing up. I don't know how you can fairly police it and what it would do to our school and legal system if we made drastic changes. Teenagers are basically sociopathic shitbags trying to find their place on the social pyramid. Not sure if you can ever stop bullying as it impacts free speech and other civil rights.

On the other hand, these are kids. They don't have the same rights as us and for good reason. So why shouldn't there be laws against it? Why shouldn't every kid be given the chance to attend school without being in fear or having their self-esteem destroyed? How many kids have their futures altered by bullies?

[Apathetic Lurker]

They are torching the administration(everybody on top of the shitpile) because in quite a few instances the bullying occured in full view of teachers.

for better or worse bullying will always be here.

[rowech]

I cannot tell you how many times my wife has reported bullying/harassment to her principal with nothing happening. Most administrators will take the viewpoint that they have bigger problems and just talking to a kid will stop the problem. All it does is stop the problem at school...if that.

[Apathetic Lurker]

Most of the time it might stop the problem at that moment only

[cougarfreak]

In the state of KY, if I see it, it's the law I report it to the administrator. The administrator MUST deal with it (however he/she deems fit), but they MUST deal with it. I can tell you mine does this on a daily basis, as I teach Freshman, a lot of crap occurs. And he MUST file a report that goes to our school resource office, who works for the county sheriff's office. This policy just started this year, it's the LAW in the state. It's a PITA, but if it keeps an incident like what happened to Phoebe Prince from happening, it's worth it. I was amazed in an online poll I saw on MSNBC this week about the Prince incident, more people were blaming the teachers than the bullies themselves. Sure as a teacher, you stop it from happening in front of you, (and in my instance report it), but no way can a school stop it from happening at all. Especially in the age of texting, facebook, myspace, etc. But I can tell you, my administrator deals with stuff happening over those digital tools as well.

[Oilers9911]

People just don't understand teaching. 1500 kids in our high school, 70 teachers. We're supposed to monitor every kid at every second to make sure there is no bullying going on? In the classroom that's fine but in between classes? Lunch? After school stuff? Sporting events?

Yes, that may be so but there are also a lot of teachers, and I would say even more administrators that turn a blind eye to that stuff. Yes it is part of growing up to some degree but it is SO much worse now than when i was young. Sociopathic shitbags is about the right term. Some of these kids need one hell of a beating.

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

Rather than reactive measures which aim to stifle individual acts of bullying and are akin to killing one roach at a time; I suggest school wide environmental interventions such as positive behavioral supports. These measures create an environment where the vile nature of bullying is fully understood by the children from kindergarten on and is not tolerated by anyone in the building due to a mutually agreed upon code of conduct.

[PilotMan]

In the state of KY, if I see it, it's the law I report it to the administrator. The administrator MUST deal with it (however he/she deems fit), but they MUST deal with it. I can tell you mine does this on a daily basis, as I teach Freshman, a lot of crap occurs. And he MUST file a report that goes to our school resource office, who works for the county sheriff's office. This policy just started this year, it's the LAW in the state. It's a PITA, but if it keeps an incident like what happened to Phoebe Prince from happening, it's worth it. I was amazed in an online poll I saw on MSNBC this week about the Prince incident, more people were blaming the teachers than the bullies themselves. Sure as a teacher, you stop it from happening in front of you, (and in my instance report it), but no way can a school stop it from happening at all. Especially in the age of texting, facebook, myspace, etc. But I can tell you, my administrator deals with stuff happening over those digital tools as well.

So far, my wife and I have been satisfied with the our school's action. It's talked about a lot, and while some stuff does happen, they take action on all of it. I just wish that the school could get a handle on the kids disrespecting the teachers. That seems to have been the biggest change since I was in middle/high school. It's gotten so it's more like prisoners and guards than educators and learners. At least in my day, maybe there was one or two kids like that, now according to my oldest, many kids in each class are like that. The kids are forced by law to be there, so there is no incentive for them behave if they don't want to. The parents are big failures, and it only seems like it's going to get worse, as the texting generation starts to raise kids of their own.

[rowech]

So far, my wife and I have been satisfied with the our school's action. It's talked about a lot, and while some stuff does happen, they take action on all of it. I just wish that the school could get a handle on the kids disrespecting the teachers. That seems to have been the biggest change since I was in middle/high school. It's gotten so it's more like prisoners and guards than educators and learners. At least in my day, maybe there was one or two kids like that, now according to my oldest, many kids in each class are like that. The kids are forced by law to be there, so there is no incentive for them behave if they don't want to. The parents are big failures, and it only seems like it's going to get worse, as the texting generation starts to raise kids of their own.

I don't ever feel I'm a guard. Just a glorified babysitter.

[JonInMiddleGA]

These measures attempt to create an environment where the vile nature of bullying is fully understood by the children from kindergarten on and is not tolerated by anyone in the building due to a mutually agreed upon code of conduct.

I added the italicized text after having seen two schools that were rather intense about the whole "kind language" environmental approach. And in both cases, bullies remained just as much a part of the school day as they were back in my day , the only difference was in how subtle they were when there were adults right in the middle of them.

As I told my son on more than one occasion (when he wished for the absence of one prick or another), "nature abhors a vacuum, if it wasn't for Bully X then Bully Y would emerge".

Not defending the bully culture in the slightest (I'm about the last guy on earth you'll find doing that after my own experiences 30+ years ago), just pointing out that any solution is going to likely need to be multi-faceted.

[Lathum]

Where were the girls parents in all of this?

I would like to think if my kid was being harassed like this they would come to me. Not saying it is the parents fault, but stuff like this is the reason kids need to feel comfortable communicating with their parents.

Obviously bullying is hard to police because of the numbers but I 100% think it should be illegal, and I was someone who was almost never a victim of bullying as a kid. Teens need to learn about the real world and in everyday life treating someone like this is a crime, it should be treated the same way in high school. This whole "right of passage" attitude about it is total bs. Granted, I think the girl probably had other issues committing suicide over it, but like someone else pointed out I can certainly see where it alters someones life through diminished self esteem, etc...

[Eaglesfan27]

This has been all over the news and didn't see it posted here. I know there are a few of you who work in the educational system and I'd really be interested in your thoughts. They seem to be just torching the Principal, teachers, and superintendent.

ically sociopathic shitbags trying to find their place on the social pyramid. Not sure if you can ever stop bullying as it impacts free speech and other civil rights.

On the other hand, these are kids. They don't have the same rights as us and for good reason. So why shouldn't there be laws against it? Why shouldn't every kid be given the chance to attend school without being in fear or having their self-esteem destroyed? How many kids have their futures altered by bullies?

I did a paper on Bullying and it's role in depression and suicide a few years ago when I was still in academics. At that time 7 states did have "no tolerance" laws for bullying and any observed bullying could lead to immediate expulsion and was supposed to result in an immediate suspension at the least. I don't know if that number has expanded, but I'm curious enough to check it out when I have time. Bullying is a factor in teen (and pre-teen) depression and suicide and it most certainly is not protected by free speech, same as you can't just yell out fire in a crowded theater if there is no fire.

Regardless of whether or not that state had any such laws against bullying, if teachers and principals were aware of it and did nothing while it occurred on school property, I hope they get hit with more than just some verbal torching.

[Eaglesfan27]

Rather than reactive measures which aim to stifle individual acts of bullying and are akin to killing one roach at a time; I suggest school wide environmental interventions such as positive behavioral supports. These measures create an environment where the vile nature of bullying is fully understood by the children from kindergarten on and is not tolerated by anyone in the building due to a mutually agreed upon code of conduct.


Agreed. This is the only proven method that helps to some extent.

[Lathum]

EF27, not sure if you are going to visit the thread again but I would be curious to know if you think the bullying was the sole cause of her committing suicide or if there had to be other factors involved?

[Eaglesfan27]

EF27, not sure if you are going to visit the thread again but I would be curious to know if you think the bullying was the sole cause of her committing suicide or if there had to be other factors involved?

Impossible for me to know without knowing a lot more details. My guess is that the bullying was at least a major factor, but I doubt it was the only factor as suicide usually has multiple causative factors.

[TroyF]

There are so many things that disturb me about this.

For one, I was bullied and bullied bad. It led to severe depression and near suicide when I was in junior high school to about 10th grade. I was 5'3" 90 pounds as a SO in high school. Even littler in junior high. (FWIW, I'm now 6'3", 200 pounds) I was kicked in the stomach, had my nose broke once, had books thrown into bathrooms or trash cans, my locker was useless. . . it was broken into and trashed at least once a week. Did the administrators of the school know? You bet your ass they knew. It was a large JHS and HS, but when the pack mentality starts in, they don't care where they do it and they get more brazen.

Now, did my parents know? No, they didn't. I internalized everything. All I wanted it to do was stop. The last thing I wanted was for it to get worse. I figured if I told my father that's what would happen.

I find it very hard to believe that the teachers did not know something major was going on. In the girls first couple of months she's dating a popular football player? Then she goes to suicide? I can promise you that even if they didn't see a single incident, that girl was going through hell and it showed. I'm also sure administrators saw some of this stuff happening and figured it's just kids being kids. I hope the investigation finds out the truth and those who did look the other way look for jobs the other way.

As a postscript to my story, when I went to my HS reunion, I had many people come up and apologize for their conduct and said they regretted what they had done. I think what TheOhioStateUniversity said is the only way this can be helped. (not stopped, but helped)

[TroyF]

EF27, not sure if you are going to visit the thread again but I would be curious to know if you think the bullying was the sole cause of her committing suicide or if there had to be other factors involved?


Since I spouted off my life story above, I'll answer this from my perspective:

There were plenty of things that led to me coming close to doing it. Family issues were a big one. The bullying was probably the single biggest factor though. It limited my ability to make friends, made going to school on a daily basis feel like I was walking into a prison, and stripped me of 98% of my self confidence. Now that I'm an adult, I honestly don't care what other people think of me. Back when I was a kid, it was one of the only things I thought about.

[molson]

Maybe things have changed, but when I was in school, teacher involvement was the LAST thing you wanted when you were being bullied.

At least if it was kind of a borderline level of teasing. Getting the teachers/parents involved would just bring things to a much worse level.

[lungs]

I'm pretty good friends with a guy I bullied in Middle School. Not like the physical beat up bullying but picking on somebody because they are a little strange.

He's still a little strange, but aren't we all? I actually find his strangeness to be quite hilarious these days.

[JonInMiddleGA]

He's still a little strange, but aren't we all?

One of the great pearls of wisdom I ever got from a teacher was that "normal is just the average of all us abnormals ... and who wants to be 'average'?"

That said however I think one of the things that determines how we deal with that reality is whether you learn to embrace your "inner strange" or if it always bothers you to some degree.

[Noop]

I hate bullies. I got suspended my freshmen and sophomore year in high-school for fighting a bully.

Why weren't the parents more involved or did they not care enough to notice a difference in their child?

[flere-imsaho]

I was bullied in junior high. Naturally by the biggest kid (by a significant margin) in our grade. You definitely didn't want to get the teachers involved because they'd end up humiliating you as much as the bully (usually some sort of "staged" apology or whatnot in front of the whole class), and then when the teachers weren't around....

Eventually, when I told my Dad about it, he gave me really specific instructions for how to deliver the worst sucker punch known to man to this kid, which I subsequently did. After falling across three rows of chairs and ending up on his ass in front of the whole class, by the smallest kid in class, he didn't bully me anymore.

Of course, this was probably one of the major reasons why I was socially ostracized for the entirety of high school (the other was that I routinely outperformed all the other students, academically), and why I have no desire to see any of those lazy fucks ever again, but life got much better in college.

[lungs]

I'm just glad I realized what an ass hole I was in middle school and early high school before I graduated high school so I could make amends before we all parted at graduation. Doesn't excuse my being a dick, but it helps.

Coincidentally, my transformation occurred when I started partying and smoking weed. I started to meet a lot of the outcasts and realizing that they aren't so bad or that I'm just as fucked up as they are in some ways. Not an excuse for drug use, but it sure didn't hurt in that department.

[Izulde]

From the NYT article I read on this, the parents *did* contact the administration about it, at least twice.

No surprise that it was the girls who did the vast majority of the bullying. Women have always been the most efficient, brutal bullies (as Thackeray so amusingly observes in Vanity Fair, and that was in the late 1800s). To paraphrase what I heard or read somewhere, only a woman can insult you with a major burn while politely complimenting you.

As for my own historical perspective, I was bullied a ton in middle school and it shattered my self-confidence all throughout high school, and even to some degree now, as I still don't make friends easily at all and constantly feel like I'm not good enough. I wasn't bullied too much in high school, because, for reasons still unknown to me this day, a large number of the gangbangers protected me, although I didn't find out just how much until years after I graduated.

[Sgran]

To those who asked if this girl was suffering from more than bullying: try to imagine the culture shock of moving to a tough high school from some small village in Ireland.

By the way, did anyone else find the "dating the senior football player" story odd? They dated briefly? So, like, some senior nailed her a weekend and then bragged about it all over school (like I would have done during my SuperAsshole years)? Or he got caught cheating on his SuperBitch girlfriend with some chick from freshman from Ireland?

[molson]

To those who asked if this girl was suffering from more than bullying: try to imagine the culture shock of moving to a tough high school from some small village in Ireland.

By the way, did anyone else find the "dating the senior football player" story odd? They dated briefly? So, like, some senior nailed her a weekend and then bragged about it all over school (like I would have done during my SuperAsshole years)? Or he got caught cheating on his SuperBitch girlfriend with some chick from freshman from Ireland?

There were a couple of statutory rape charges among the students cited.

But ya, this doesn't seem like it was the "jock/nerd" (for lack of a better phrase) bullying. This girl got a lot of male attention right away, and the mean girls at this school freaked the hell out about it.

[Autumn]

Now that I'm an adult, I honestly don't care what other people think of me. Back when I was a kid, it was one of the only things I thought about.

I think this is the key thing to remember when dealing with adolescents. I remember in junior high there was very little else that I worried about, though I suppose I thought about other things. As adults we tend to forget that, and then we belittle how kids feel about things that now seem silly to us. At that time there's little else in the world to kids other than what other kids think of them. That's only gotten worse since we were kids, as I think more and more teenagers are essentially left to their own devices by society.

[Eaglesfan27]

I think this is the key thing to remember when dealing with adolescents. I remember in junior high there was very little else that I worried about, though I suppose I thought about other things. As adults we tend to forget that, and then we belittle how kids feel about things that now seem silly to us. At that time there's little else in the world to kids other than what other kids think of them. That's only gotten worse since we were kids, as I think more and more teenagers are essentially left to their own devices by society.


So true. Doesn't matter how popular, how good they look, or how successful they are either. Just in the past 2 weeks, I saw this beautiful 15 year old girl who I believe has almost zero self-esteem and is just constantly preoccupied with her belief that everyone dislikes her and thinks she is ugly. I also saw this 16 year old boy who is a very good high school baseball player, is good looking, and reasonably smart, but he is suffering severe anxiety mostly from ruminating on how his peers dissect everything he does or says.

[Dodgerchick]

I added the italicized text after having seen two schools that were rather intense about the whole "kind language" environmental approach. And in both cases, bullies remained just as much a part of the school day as they were back in my day , the only difference was in how subtle they were when there were adults right in the middle of them.

One thing that really irritates me about our daughter's school is that they teach the kids to use "I messages" to get their point across. I wish I could remember details about this specific incident, but the jist of it is that Larissa (our 9 year old) was grabbed and pulled by a kid and she told this kid how she felt (per this stupid rule). This of course did nothing, but when she told me, I told her if a kid grabbed her or she felt physically threatened in any way, she has my permission to defend herself. These bullshit "I messages" won't do shit if my daughter is getting pushed, grabbed, or hurt in any way. It seriously drives me nuts.

[SportsDino]

In my experience schools are very unfair in their punishments, often the worst offenders are allowed to run amock, whereas if you don't look like a thug if you get caught doing anything they throw the book at you. I think most administrators are human garbage, maybe its just my local district though.

There is no reason to allow bullying in schools, and they should at least take all reasonable measures to reduce/prevent it. Most bullies are petty crooks in training, and cowards in general.

For anyone who thinks there were 'other factors', imagine your entire life consists of being teased, ridiculed, and isolated. With physical attacks interspersed amongst loneliness and disrespect. Hell, most adults get depressed over relatively weaker stimuli than that... if such passive wear and tear can drive people to kill themselves, why not active harassment over an extended period of time? There is no doubt for me that is the reason she is dead, they'll find some bullshit story they cook up, probably involving chemicals and nonsense talk (they want every kid to be trainquilized into a zombie these days).

[Sun Tzu]

I wasn't a bully, but I did my fair share of poking fun at those less popular and athletic than myself. I cleaned up my act by the time I got to H.S. but I'm definitely guilty of making a few kids miserable for a short period of time.

That being said, there is never an acceptable reason for suicide IMO...well not unless you've been grossly disfigured in an accident or something.

[sterlingice]

Rather than reactive measures which aim to stifle individual acts of bullying and are akin to killing one roach at a time; I suggest school wide environmental interventions such as positive behavioral supports. These measures create an environment where the vile nature of bullying is fully understood by the children from kindergarten on and is not tolerated by anyone in the building due to a mutually agreed upon code of conduct.

I know this has been seconded and thirded quite a bit in the thread, but I'm not at all sure what this means and sounds a lot like buzz words rammed together. I mean, I know what it means in an ethereal sense. But, what concrete actions could be done to promote such actions? I think we pretty much all agree that bullying is bad. But what actual enumerable steps can be done to lessen bullying and not just shift it around (as JIMGA's power vacuum notes).

I'm not saying they're not out there. But I don't know what they are and we haven't really said anything in this thread that could prevent a thing.

SI

[Eaglesfan27]

I know this has been seconded and thirded quite a bit in the thread, but I'm not at all sure what this means and sounds a lot like buzz words rammed together. I mean, I know what it means in an ethereal sense. But, what concrete actions could be done to promote such actions? I think we pretty much all agree that bullying is bad. But what actual enumerable steps can be done to lessen bullying and not just shift it around (as JIMGA's power vacuum notes).

I'm not saying they're not out there. But I don't know what they are and we haven't really said anything in this thread that could prevent a thing.

SI


The schools I've seen it implemented at, have posters everywhere, assemblies, and teachers reinforcing the idea that bullying is wrong and will not be tolerated from Kindergarden on up. It's talked about a few times a year, the posters are always there as a reminder, and most importantly if bullying is observed by the teachers, definitive action is taken. Of course, that relies on everyone to do their job properly which is an issue in any system. I don't think it is any magical cure but it helps some.

[SportsDino]

Here's the way most bullying reports go...

1. Students tell teacher X is bullying Y.

2. Teacher passes on to main office.

3. Principal calls in X and Y. Y refuses to say they are being bullied and X refuses to admit to it.

4. Principal's hands are tied because teacher didn't hear it and going on student reports is not enough for a principal to issue a punishment.

5. Harassment continues forever or until a teacher finally hears/sees it.

I can assure you that if Y does say crap is going on, principal still doesn't do anything. Probably dependent on the principal of course.

I guarantee if Y knocks X down though after being hit all day, that if Y is not a 'hardened thug beyond all help' they will be treated like crap. Then X will see they get off light and Y gets the book thrown at them, so X is even more eager to do it again... then X gets their head slammed into a wall.

All of that nonsense can be eliminated if the principal has a pair and stops X back when its all trivial talk and petty bullshit attacks. Non-enforcement leads to escalation... similar to the whole stock market hijinx.

That more students don't tell when bullying occurs is probably because they know from experience the staff doesn't do a thing, even if it is in plain sight.

[SportsDino]

The schools I've seen it implemented at, have posters everywhere, assemblies, and teachers reinforcing the idea that bullying is wrong and will not be tolerated from Kindergarden on up. It's talked about a few times a year, the posters are always there as a reminder, and most importantly if bullying is observed by the teachers, definitive action is taken. Of course, that relies on everyone to do their job properly which is an issue in any system. I don't think it is any magical cure but it helps some.

I second this, definitive action is the key... if you make it un-fun for the bully then they are less likely to do it. The victims can't stop it, if they do 'fight back' then the bully has their ego damaged and gets even more aggressive in their pestering (unless you totally obliterate them, but then you have to do something about the former bully who is now physically or mentally screwed up).

[Klinglerware]

I think this is the key thing to remember when dealing with adolescents. I remember in junior high there was very little else that I worried about, though I suppose I thought about other things. As adults we tend to forget that, and then we belittle how kids feel about things that now seem silly to us. At that time there's little else in the world to kids other than what other kids think of them. That's only gotten worse since we were kids, as I think more and more teenagers are essentially left to their own devices by society.


Very true. I ran into one of my former HS teachers a couple of years ago, and your post reminded me of what she said to me at some point during that conversation: "just because some problem you faced in high school may seem insignificant now doesn't mean that it was insignificant when you experienced it then." I hope I remember that when if/when I have children someday.

[sterlingice]

I think this is the key thing to remember when dealing with adolescents. I remember in junior high there was very little else that I worried about, though I suppose I thought about other things. As adults we tend to forget that, and then we belittle how kids feel about things that now seem silly to us. At that time there's little else in the world to kids other than what other kids think of them. That's only gotten worse since we were kids, as I think more and more teenagers are essentially left to their own devices by society.

There's one lesson I hope to take with me to parenting and remember first and foremost through the teenage years of my possible future children. Their social standing is the most important thing to them. It's not the only thing but it's the most important currency they have.

Once you get to your 20s and beyond, you have a pile of accomplishments, large and small (hey, I'm not President of the US or anything, but I did graduate from both high school and college so there's something and I'm married, etc) and the knowledge that, while things may not have turned out exactly as you pictured them, they did turn out and you're still here.

In middle and high school, you just don't have that. You have nothing to really measure things against either. Event X really does look like the end of the world as you haven't had to, say, take that minimum wage job to pay rent or stay up 3 straight nights to get a project done for school or work.

Not only that but you've never really "accomplished" anything either. You have come through the two aforementioned events, for better or for worse. Sure, you might have gotten some decent grades or dated a pretty girl or whatever, but so have a lot of others in your close peer group. So, in your most formative years, while you're trying to find yourself, you have nothing to fall back on to remind you that things will be ok.

Everything you "own" is really your parents so you don't have any material wealth accumulated. Maybe, if you're really shrewd, you could save up a few thousand dollars after months and months of work. But compared to the rest of the world, that doesn't get you a whole lot. A few months rent, no food, and no bills is all that adds up to. Not exactly fiscal stability.

So, at the end of the day, you have your social standing. It gets you things, it accomplishes things for you, it measures you. And a lot of people see it as a zero sum game so it's really messy- you have to break down someone to built it up for yourself. Much like most kids, I was told that stuff doesn't really matter. And, in a way, that's true. But when you're that age, it really does matter so I hope I really remember that one day.

I know I didn't really come into my own until I changed schools halfway through high school. When you're coming into a new school as an upperclassman, it's a lot easier as you don't have to worry about getting grief from below. And I was really fortunate in college to fall in with the "right crowd"- we were the rejected nerds and misfits of the world, in a way as we were the smart kids. But rather than do what a lot do, scrapping between each other to see who can get a 4 instead of a 3 on the 1-10 social scale, we just didn't care and were friends with each other. That sort of cutthroat social mentality starts to fade as you get older and maybe even a little wiser.

People think I'm crazy when I say this but I would love to go back to school as a younger person with the knowledge I have now. You have the bonus of tacking some more years onto your life with a younger body and I think life is too short as is. But, beyond that, I think I'd be able to do so much good. I think so many people would have led much better lives with just a bit more encouragement and help from peers at a time when all are trying to figure out who they are.

SI

[sterlingice]

Very true. I ran into one of my former HS teachers a couple of years ago, and your post reminded me of what she said to me at some point during that conversation: "just because some problem you faced in high school may seem insignificant now doesn't mean that it was insignificant when you experienced it then." I hope I remember that when if/when I have children someday.

Or what you said in a lot fewer words in the time that it took me to type up my giant post :D

SI

[JonInMiddleGA]

The schools I've seen it implemented at, have posters everywhere, assemblies, and teachers reinforcing the idea that bullying is wrong and will not be tolerated from Kindergarden on up. It's talked about a few times a year, the posters are always there as a reminder ...

All of this part sounds familiar so far

and most importantly if bullying is observed by the teachers, definitive action is taken.

Okay, I'm starting to see the difference in what you describe vs what I've seen in practice.

Of course, that relies on everyone to do their job properly which is an issue in any system.

Apparently so, and I've yet to see (in three schools) that last step you mention acted on with any consistency.

[Ben E Lou]

EF27, not sure if you are going to visit the thread again but I would be curious to know if you think the bullying was the sole cause of her committing suicide or if there had to be other factors involved?
She is 15, shows up at a new school and is spreading her legs for (allegedly) multiple older guys in a short period of time.

And you have to ask if maybe, just maybe, she had other issues????

*sigh*

[Lathum]

She is 15, shows up at a new school and is spreading her legs for (allegedly) multiple older guys in a short period of time.

And you have to ask if maybe, just maybe, she had other issues????

*sigh*

Not sure what bubble of purity you live in but from my understanding there are a lot of 15 year old girls who act in a similar way and I don't hear stories about them hanging themselves.

[Ben E Lou]

Not sure what bubble of purity you live in but from my understanding there are a lot of 15 year old girls who act in a similar way and I don't hear stories about them hanging themselves.Show me a 15-year-old girl who acts in a similar way and I'll show you a 15-year-old girl with serious issues--virtually always self-worth ones. And in the great majority of cases, I'll show you a girl who has at least considered suicide. Not saying the bullying didn't push her over the edge. It almost definitely did. But to ask if it was the "sole cause" is just stunningly naive.

[JonInMiddleGA]

She is 15, shows up at a new school and is spreading her legs for (allegedly) multiple older guys in a short period of time.

And you have to ask if maybe, just maybe, she had other issues????

*sigh*

Well hell, for that matter, the specific claim (which seems to be in most of the articles I've read) about her being called "an Irish slut" seems to be difficult to prohibit without seriously infringing on the right to free speech, as truth is an absolute defense against defamation.

Most of the other allegations, such as the physical abuse & verbal threats, are readily actionable under other legal statutes but I'm not sure that one is or even should be given the alleged circumstances.

[Lathum]

Ben, the problem with what you are saying IMO is you are making a huge leap from her being promiscuous and using that as enough of a reason to kill herself after being pushed over the edge by being bullied.

I think you are simplifying it to much. If every 15 year old with self worth issues killed themselves because of being teased there would be a lot more dead 15 year old girls. I just don't see the leap you are making.

My own personal experience with suicide is there have to be a lot more factors involved and my question to EF was with those experiences in mind.

[molson]

Suicide, especially at that age, isn't a rational decision, so I don't think you can apply rational motives to it.

Many, many (probably even most) people have suicidal thoughts, for some, it goes a little further to plan, and for others, there's even an attempt. Identifying whatever seperates those people, from the people that actually complete and succeed in the deed is kind of an elusive thing, I think. Anything could have distracted her that moment and kept her alive another day. Someone else who had contemplated suicide could have gone through with it if they had one more bad day than they did.

So I don't think there's necessarily unusual "issues" or anything going on here at all. This same fact pattern probably plays out thousands of times across the country every year. And from those incidents, occasionally there's the perfect storm to create this result.

[Ben E Lou]

Ben, the problem with what you are saying IMO is you are making a huge leap from her being promiscuous and using that as enough of a reason to kill herself after being pushed over the edge by being bullied.No, I am not. You are really missing it. I said:
Show me a 15-year-old girl who acts in a similar way and I'll show you a 15-year-old girl with serious issues--virtually always self-worth ones. And in the great majority of cases, I'll show you a girl who has at least considered suicide.Being that easy at that age is an effect, not a cause. It is an effect not a few times, not sometimes, not most of the time, not nearly all the time. It is an effect *all* the time. There's something else going on here.

I think you are simplifying it to much. If every 15 year old with self worth issues killed themselves because of being teased there would be a lot more dead 15 year old girls. I just don't see the leap you are making.Not surprising. I probably shouldn't have bothered. I'm generally too optimistic about these sorts of discussions. Probably another case of that here. *shurg*
My own personal experience with suicide is there have to be a lot more factors involved and my question to EF was with those experiences in mind.Right. And if you re-read what I said, I'm saying that there have to be a lot more factors involved.

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

The schools I've seen it implemented at, have posters everywhere, assemblies, and teachers reinforcing the idea that bullying is wrong and will not be tolerated from Kindergarden on up. It's talked about a few times a year, the posters are always there as a reminder, and most importantly if bullying is observed by the teachers, definitive action is taken. Of course, that relies on everyone to do their job properly which is an issue in any system. I don't think it is any magical cure but it helps some.

I also think its important to add that the children who exhibit anti-bullying behaviors (sharing, asking an isolated child to join their group, etc..) are systematically rewarded and praised particularly during their formative years in school. Initially pairing pro social behavior with positive reinforcement can encourage the development of more intrinsic motivation as the behaviors become ingrained and the children mature.

[Eaglesfan27]

I also think its important to add that the children who exhibit anti-bullying behaviors (sharing, asking an isolated child to join their group, etc..) are systematically rewarded and praised particularly during their formative years in school. Initially pairing pro social behavior with positive reinforcement can encourage the development of more intrinsic motivation as the behaviors become ingrained and the children mature.


Very good point and a very important part of a successful anti-bullying program.

[Toddzilla]

Blaming the victim seems to be popular, too.

[SportsDino]

Whether she slept with someone or not, that shouldn't be excuse for an excessive campaign of terror on her. If the school is told a student is being massively interfered with, particularly at the extreme level hinted at here, the school should do something.

A 15 year old kid, regardless of what they did, shouldn't have to figure out how to handle an entire student population taking pot shots at them. Many adults can't handle everyday levels of stress, and you are expecting high standard mental toughness from teenagers? How is it hard to believe that the LEADING contributing factor to her suicide is the repeated attacks on her by everyone in her peer group? People want to bring up 'other factors' because they either want to shift the blame or they want to understand why the statistic isn't higher... both of which are useless.

There have been enough of these cases that you would think people would put together the common trend. While many do have a grab bag of random contributing factors (chemical imbalances, quick tempers, interests in weaponry/violence, drug use, sexual problems, other abuse, extreme violent bullying in the past.... you name it) the most common trend is systematic bullying at a level that noticeably goes above the norm and some significantly disturbing catalyst event that causes a crack after its been obviously building for a long time.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Whether she slept with someone or not, that shouldn't be excuse for an excessive campaign of terror on her.

???

I haven't seen anyone excuse it, not here nor elsewhere. As far as I can figure I've probably been the most outspoken on that subject here & even I limited it to whether a specific taunt was legitimately actionable while acknowledging how much of the other stuff was obviously actionable.



How is it hard to believe that the LEADING contributing factor to her suicide is the repeated attacks on her by everyone in her peer group?

I believe having a switchblade held to your throat in middle school for the joint sins of being white & being smart, still having the scars on my arm from scratches inflicted at age 8 by a school bus teenager angry because I could read better than she could, and a laundry list of lesser offenses on a daily & even hourly basis qualifies as a having been bullied, so I can at least speak from personal experience on the subject.

And with that I have a difficult time believing any of that is the #1 factor in a suicide, which is also from the perspective of having put a loaded gun in my mouth for the first time at age 13.

Underlying issues led to my suicidal reaction to various provocations, but the abuse did not dictate my reaction.

[Ben E Lou]

How is it hard to believe that the LEADING contributing factor to her suicide is the repeated attacks on her by everyone in her peer group? People want to bring up 'other factors' because they either want to shift the blame or they want to understand why the statistic isn't higher... both of which are useless. No. That wasn't the quesiton asked. The question was asking if the bullying was the ONLY factor. Sure, it was likely the leading factor, but that wasn't the comment I was addressing.

[Eaglesfan27]

No. That wasn't the quesiton asked. The question was asking if the bullying was the ONLY factor. Sure, it was likely the leading factor, but that wasn't the comment I was addressing.

Nor was it the one I was addressing. Only and leading are very different. Children and teens are quite resilient and if they have a good home life with strong family support, then suicide is very unlikely if Bullying is the teen's only problem.

[Silver Owl]

She is 15, shows up at a new school and is spreading her legs for (allegedly) multiple older guys in a short period of time.

And you have to ask if maybe, just maybe, she had other issues????

*sigh*

I just reread the article and don't see anywhere that she was "spreading her legs for (allegedly) multiple older guys".

Am I missing something? If not, then thats an awful big leap.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I just reread the article and don't see anywhere that she was "spreading her legs for (allegedly) multiple older guys

Well as of this afternoon two have been charged with statutory rape, and I haven't seen anything that mentions those not being male & depending upon the applicable state law those are presumably older (again presumably one of them the senior football player she's referenced as dating).

[SackAttack]

I'm sort of torn on this issue. On one hand, it's a free society and this is part of growing up. I don't know how you can fairly police it and what it would do to our school and legal system if we made drastic changes. Teenagers are basically sociopathic shitbags trying to find their place on the social pyramid. Not sure if you can ever stop bullying as it impacts free speech and other civil rights.

Civil rights are kinda selective in schools anyway. Student newspapers are free to say whatever they want that the administration will allow, for example.

Warrantless search and seizure exists on any campus that has metal detectors at the entrances, or random drug dog sniffing of the lockers.

The right to bear arms is, of course, right out.

Equal protection only applies in certain cases. School-sponsored extracurriculars, for example. Schools have canceled prom/other formal events because of interrracial/same-gender dating issues.

All of which is to say, concern for civil rights when it comes to preventing bullying is kind of short-sighted. Precedent already exists for infringement in other areas, especially when student safety and health is at risk (see the aforementioned metal detectors, and the story Foz posted last year about the female who was strip-searched over pain medication; I think that one ended with a decision along the lines of 'they fucked up, but they can't be held responsible for it, so piss off').

[rowech]

The courts have continually judged in favor of schools when it comes to violating student rights. Students do not have freedom of speech within the school itself. The courts have gone so far as to say they don't have the right to say whatever they want on their facebook pages either. (depending on what is said)

[rowech]

I should clarify....students don't have those freedoms if the school can show they are a risk to safety of teachers/students or negatively impact the educational misson.

[Ben E Lou]

I just reread the article and don't see anywhere that she was "spreading her legs for (allegedly) multiple older guys".

Am I missing something? If not, then thats an awful big leap.I was basing that on this...The two males, 17 and 18, were charged with statutory rape.

[LoneStarGirl]

As a teacher who has quite a few bullies in my class this year, this story hits close to home. I am a 26 year old teacher and at our school we work in teams, which means there is an English, math, history, and science teacher all teaching the exact same kids and have common planning periods to discuss the best way to handle the students. The other three teachers i work with are old and have a 'dont touch' policy. They dont like talking to the kids about anything besides their work, they dont like hugging, they dont like caring for the most part.

Out of the 75 Gifted and Talented 7th graders I teach, 5 of them are hard core bullies. When the kids being bullied complain the other teachers tell them to get tough skin and sit down. I am the only one they can talk to about it, and when I go to administration to complain about the bullies, I'm told to get back to teaching because kids will be kids.

I even had a student die in a car wreck a month ago (hardest thing I have EVER dealt with in my life) and one of the bullies said 'good, i hope she burns in hell' in front of me and the girl' sobbing friends.... and nobody did anything about it... so I have no doubt in my mind that the administration in this story knew something about this poor girl being bullied, they just probably chose not to do anything about it

[Dodgerchick]

LSG, that breaks my heart :(

[SportsDino]

As a teacher who has quite a few bullies in my class this year, this story hits close to home. I am a 26 year old teacher and at our school we work in teams, which means there is an English, math, history, and science teacher all teaching the exact same kids and have common planning periods to discuss the best way to handle the students. The other three teachers i work with are old and have a 'dont touch' policy. They dont like talking to the kids about anything besides their work, they dont like hugging, they dont like caring for the most part.

Out of the 75 Gifted and Talented 7th graders I teach, 5 of them are hard core bullies. When the kids being bullied complain the other teachers tell them to get tough skin and sit down. I am the only one they can talk to about it, and when I go to administration to complain about the bullies, I'm told to get back to teaching because kids will be kids.

I even had a student die in a car wreck a month ago (hardest thing I have EVER dealt with in my life) and one of the bullies said 'good, i hope she burns in hell' in front of me and the girl' sobbing friends.... and nobody did anything about it... so I have no doubt in my mind that the administration in this story knew something about this poor girl being bullied, they just probably chose not to do anything about it

Well the other teachers in that situation are morons.

If we are bringing up personal bullying stories, I was the traditional target... nerdy shy kid. But I was an atypically good and vicious fighter.

I would ask teachers to do something because I would have tried all the other 'turn the other cheek' tricks I was aware of, and figured authority intervention was the only 'legal' way to resolve it at that point.

Good teachers, they stepped in, told the morons to cut the shit out, and on average that was it. Bad teachers who would do the 'tough skin' bullshit, were the ones that end up escorting me to the principals office after I shove a kid's head into a wall. Or position them in a doorframe and push on their arm like a lever. Or broke off a pencil in a kid's leg. Etc...

Some teachers, principals and security guards are just fuckin lazy. And then they jump on 'law abiding' students because they do what they are told, and actually react when they get in trouble (whereas the bullies just laugh it off, I'd have to go through a ton of bullshit). Some of the worst are bullies themselves, they get a sadistic pleasure from seeing people get crapped on.

The 'get tough' line is bullshit. I'm tougher than any bully who ever thought to take me on, and lazy school staff are the only reason I ever needed to prove it. After it got too silly I eventually had to grow up and find a way to handle it, but most teenagers wouldn't have been capable of doing what I did because they don't have that level of self control.

Bullying serves zero educational purpose, it doesn't make tough kids, it makes brats into bigger brats, victims into bitter and cynical people, and for some small fraction it creates nervous wrecks.

As for the 'leading versus only' question I bring it up because its a standard weak argument, someone brings up the 'other factors' line, and then that is used to justify that either bullying is not the key problem or that the victim is in some way extremely inferior and that is why they committed suicide. My point is that the 'other factors' do not matter, what happened here on its own is a crime, and in no way should be downplayed. If you get rid of this 'leading factor' is the girl still alive today, is she maybe able to seek help for her other factors, hell maybe she won't even have other factors to worry about (the only thing mentioned so far is an attack on her being a slut for doing what a lot of immature kids do, again attacking the victim to make an idiotic point).

-----

As for your story Jon, as someone who has gone through my fair share of bullying, and never claim close to contemplating suicide at any point or any reason in my life.... I do not think that makes me qualified to rule it out for all other people that bullying is enough to drive them to suicide. Just because 'you survived' doesn't mean shit. A statistical fallacy if you will.

Without being in her head how can you claim that in her case the abuse was or was not the reason? Or if it turns out she has ADHD or some other mental issue, that it somehow magically becomes the reason she is a suicide (as I've seen happen in other cases of this nature, as soon as anything remotely medical comes into play that instantly is considered the KEY FACTOR and they pat themselves on the back and do nothing to solve the problem).

I'm sure we can agree that bullying is a problem, that is all we need to agree on, maybe I'm just being very specific because I've seen these arguments before fall into trivialities and bullshit lines of thought (like the health care reform thread turning into a calorie counting of fuckin McDonalds).

[JediKooter]

I was bullied for a little while in my freshman year of high school. I never told my dad about it or anyone else. However, I did finally figure out how to stop it...I became just as much of an asshole to them as they did me. That worked in my situation. However, in my sisters situation, there was zero she could do. She was not bullied nor was she the bully and didn't really know any of the parties involved. She happened to be standing by the boys bathroom when a kid who was bullied decided that he had had enough and starting shooting people in the boys bathroom.

He killed two boys in there before coming out and pointing the gun at my sister. Luckily, my sister figured out what was going on and turned tail and started to run. Can't out run a bullet though. She was shot, her friend running in front of her was shot with the same bullet that hit my sister.

My sister was shot in her triceps where the bullet then traveled down the length of her arm and exited her forearm. She almost lost her arm. Then she almost died because of blood clots.

So when I hear of teachers turning a blind eye to a kid being bullied or telling them to 'man up', needs to be fired or anyone saying that, "Hey, I was bullied and I turned out fine". Fuck you and your bullshit. I almost lost my sister and she wasn't even involved in the bullying. Bullying doesn't just affect the two parties involved, it affects everyone in one way or another.

[Logan]

Good lord. Rough story, sorry to hear and glad your sister ended up okay (I presume).

[JediKooter]

Good lord. Rough story, sorry to hear and glad your sister ended up okay (I presume).

Thanks Logan and yes, she is doing good now.

[Autumn]

And Jedi closes the thread with that one. Telling a kid to tough it out might be part of the advice you give to your own kid to deal with bullying, or it might be part of how some kids get through it. But it has no place in the official response of the adults put in charge of kids in a school. Part of the problems with our schools is that we've abdicated them to the kids. Schools, just like homes, should be a place where adults and children interact, and kids learn what being civil means. That requires adults being present and in charge, not that they leave it up to the kids to police themselves.

[DaddyTorgo]

goddamn Jedi

[JediKooter]

You said it DT. I don't want anyone to have to go through that regardless if it's a child, a sibling or a friend.

[RainMaker]

As a teacher who has quite a few bullies in my class this year, this story hits close to home. I am a 26 year old teacher and at our school we work in teams, which means there is an English, math, history, and science teacher all teaching the exact same kids and have common planning periods to discuss the best way to handle the students. The other three teachers i work with are old and have a 'dont touch' policy. They dont like talking to the kids about anything besides their work, they dont like hugging, they dont like caring for the most part.

Out of the 75 Gifted and Talented 7th graders I teach, 5 of them are hard core bullies. When the kids being bullied complain the other teachers tell them to get tough skin and sit down. I am the only one they can talk to about it, and when I go to administration to complain about the bullies, I'm told to get back to teaching because kids will be kids.

I even had a student die in a car wreck a month ago (hardest thing I have EVER dealt with in my life) and one of the bullies said 'good, i hope she burns in hell' in front of me and the girl' sobbing friends.... and nobody did anything about it... so I have no doubt in my mind that the administration in this story knew something about this poor girl being bullied, they just probably chose not to do anything about it
I just don't get why it's so hard to setup a system to remove these kids. If 5 kids are disrupting the lives of 75, then they should be removed.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I just don't get why it's so hard to setup a system to remove these kids. If 5 kids are disrupting the lives of 75, then they should be removed.

Here's a reasonably common response, written by a former teacher (commenting online on a recent local story about a county school system looking to tighten its bullying rules)

I remember reporting a clear case of bulling/sexual intimidation/sexual harassment to a school administrator who has gone on to bigger things at CCSD. Racial epithets, sexually derogatory terms, threatened physical/sexual violence --- looked like bullying to me-- all very precisely documented.

I was advised by said administrator that due to her "open door" policy, bullying did not exist in her school. I was told that I had obviously overreacted and misunderstood the "context" of what was happening, and that I was culturally insensitive and bigoted. I responded in somewhat more direct terms than what I'm putting here that in my humble opinion, a repeated threat to commit forcible anal rape transcended cultural lines as a threat. But I could be wrong about that.

Anyway, upshot was I was told that I should tear up my referral/report, I responded that state law required me to report the incident, and so it came to pass that I was invited to not come back.

[RainMaker]

Here's a reasonably common response, written by a former teacher (commenting online on a recent local story about a county school system looking to tighten its bullying rules)

I remember reporting a clear case of bulling/sexual intimidation/sexual harassment to a school administrator who has gone on to bigger things at CCSD. Racial epithets, sexually derogatory terms, threatened physical/sexual violence --- looked like bullying to me-- all very precisely documented.

I was advised by said administrator that due to her "open door" policy, bullying did not exist in her school. I was told that I had obviously overreacted and misunderstood the "context" of what was happening, and that I was culturally insensitive and bigoted. I responded in somewhat more direct terms than what I'm putting here that in my humble opinion, a repeated threat to commit forcible anal rape transcended cultural lines as a threat. But I could be wrong about that.

Anyway, upshot was I was told that I should tear up my referral/report, I responded that state law required me to report the incident, and so it came to pass that I was invited to not come back.
My ex who was a teacher seemed to state the same thing. Although she would point out that the administrators were more scared of students suing the school or causing problems legally for them that they never really punished anyone. The minute you punished a bully their parents came out guns a blazin threatening the school because of course their child is a perfect angel.

Perhaps it's time we started to hold these administrators criminally responsible for these incidents if they had prior knowledge.

[sterlingice]

Or how about the parents who are legally trying to sue for their kid being a little devil?

SI

[rowech]

1. Administrators aren't likely to tick off parents because they need their vote for funding. (The customer is always right)

2. Many bullies are on behavior IEPs. Legally, in most states, you cannot suspend these kids if the bullying could be considered a byproduct of their disability. In Ohio, it's five days. (unless it has changed)

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

Rowech I'm not sure I agree with your assertion that many bullies are on behavior IEPs. To qualify for classification as emotionally disturbed for special education a child would have to exhibit fairly severe behaviors and would likely only be mainstreamed with typically peers for a portion of the day. Particularly in the case of females who exhibit more relational aggression and bullying; I would argue that only a small minority of them have an IEP, and even fewer have a behavior IEP. Often these are the popular and seemingly successful members of the school population.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Rowech I'm not sure I agree with your assertion that many bullies are on behavior IEPs. To qualify for classification as emotionally disturbed for special education a child would have to exhibit fairly severe behaviors and would likely only be mainstreamed with typically peers for a portion of the day. Particularly in the case of females who exhibit more relational aggression and bullying; I would argue that only a small minority of them have an IEP, and even fewer have a behavior IEP. Often these are the popular and seemingly successful members of the school population.

It isn't often that I get to do this, so I won't pass up the opportunity to post my agreement with tOSU on this post.

There have been bullies -- easily identifiable ones, no borderline cases, no close calls, textbook examples -- for each of the 8 years I've had a kid in school (IEP's didn't exist as such back in the olden days of my school years). There's been only one with an IEP case involving one of those & while anecdotal, given that I'm talking about three different schools with different approaches to IEP's & given additional experiences with how difficult schools make it to even work with an IEP, I'm very hard pressed to think there's anywhere near a significant percentage who have them. "Many" might be true in raw numbers, you could probably gin up a four or five digit number worth, but in terms of percentages that's a drop in the bucket.

[SportsDino]

Back at my school the administrators were slime, so I can easily see this sort of thing coming out of their mouth. The best thing for most school districts would be to fire about 90% of the administration and put it on skeleton crew with only enough time to handle the basics.

[flere-imsaho]

Perhaps it's time we started to hold these administrators criminally responsible for these incidents if they had prior knowledge.

I'd rather require administrators to document incidents and send said documentation immediately (via certified mail) to the parents of bullies and victims. Then we can hold the parents (of the bullies) criminally responsible.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Then we can hold the parents (of the bullies) criminally responsible.

If you can get a D.A. to prosecute.
If you can get a grand jury to indict.

Both of which would have been iffy at the very best in every case I've had to deal with (but threatening to hand the matter over to both police & civil attorneys will occasionally move a reluctant adminstrator)

[gstelmack]

The minute you punished a bully their parents came out guns a blazin threatening the school because of course their child is a perfect angel.

A nice summary of a critical problem with this country...

[flere-imsaho]

If you can get a D.A. to prosecute.
If you can get a grand jury to indict.

I take your point, but my point was that if you clearly document the cases of abuse and inform the parents via certified mail, you've provided the authorities with considerably more ammunition than they have currently.

Not to mention taking away the "but the school administration never told me nothing" defense in the ensuing civil trials.

[Galaril]

If you can get a D.A. to prosecute.
If you can get a grand jury to indict.

Both of which would have been iffy at the very best in every case I've had to deal with (but threatening to hand the matter over to both police & civil attorneys will occasionally move a reluctant adminstrator)

I bet it won't be a problem in Mass.:)

[LoneStarGirl]

I just don't get why it's so hard to setup a system to remove these kids. If 5 kids are disrupting the lives of 75, then they should be removed.

They have no where to go. The alternative school is for REALLY bad kids, like those who bring knives and guns to school. Its almost impossible to get a kid expelled from school.. they essentially have to hit a teacher to be removed from campus. At least that is my experience here in Arkansas

[LoneStarGirl]

1. Administrators aren't likely to tick off parents because they need their vote for funding. (The customer is always right)

2. Many bullies are on behavior IEPs. Legally, in most states, you cannot suspend these kids if the bullying could be considered a byproduct of their disability. In Ohio, it's five days. (unless it has changed)

None of the 5 bullies i have this year are on IEPs.... In fact they have the top IQ's and take 9th grade classes in the 7th grade. They just have TERRIBLE upbringing.

[JonInMiddleGA]

They have no where to go. The alternative school is for REALLY bad kids, like those who bring knives and guns to school.

Sounds like the ideal place to send the school bullies. Preferably wearing something like this for a uniform
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/libertees_2097_3659411

[Lathum]

Sounds like the ideal place to send the school bullies. Preferably wearing something like this for a uniform
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/libertees_2097_3659411

I thought the same thing, teach them what it is like to be on the other side if things.

[RainMaker]

They have no where to go. The alternative school is for REALLY bad kids, like those who bring knives and guns to school. Its almost impossible to get a kid expelled from school.. they essentially have to hit a teacher to be removed from campus. At least that is my experience here in Arkansas
From reading the complaint, these kids seem like REALLY bad kids. And if they aren't as bad as those, then they'll learn quickly not to fuck with other people. Seems like lessons will be learned all around.

I just hate how we have to worry so much about the bad guys in society. If you dont' want to end up at the alternative school, don't fuck with people like that.

[RainMaker]

More information on the case. Seemed like this girl went through utter hell in her final hours. In a sad way, I can see why she did it. I couldn't fathom being that age and literally having people constantly attacking you even as you walked home from school.

Court filing reveals taunted teen's anguish in final hours - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/04/09/massachusetts.bullying.suicide/index.html?hpt=C2)

Maybe we should be locking up parents too.

[rowech]

This case is just beyond words really. This isn't garden, every day just being in high school bullying. It's insane that this was allowed to continue whether it be through the school or the police.

[JonInMiddleGA]

This case is just beyond words really. This isn't garden, every day just being in high school bullying.

???

From the article (I didn't read the .pdf's on the three girls, maybe there's more there) I didn't see anything out of the ordinary for HS level bullying.

Threatened, got called out for her sexual behavior with name calling, threatened some more, something got thrown at her I think. No mention of lethal weapons, property damage, etc., and even those aren't all that uncommon in my experience if there's a long-term target.

What did I miss that would be remarkably worse than the standard bullying at this age group.

NOTE: None of those questions have anything to do with blaming the victim, excusing the bullies, or anything else. I'm just curious what rowech saw that struck him as being so much worse than garden variety bullying, whether I missed something(s) or if what I would consider baseline bullying in this age group is more intense than his expectations for "average"

[rowech]

???

From the article (I didn't read the .pdf's on the three girls, maybe there's more there) I didn't see anything out of the ordinary for HS level bullying.

Threatened, got called out for her sexual behavior with name calling, threatened some more, something got thrown at her I think. No mention of lethal weapons, property damage, etc., and even those aren't all that uncommon in my experience if there's a long-term target.

What did I miss that would be remarkably worse than the standard bullying at this age group.

NOTE: None of those questions have anything to do with blaming the victim, excusing the bullies, or anything else. I'm just curious what rowech saw that struck him as being so much worse than garden variety bullying, whether I missed something(s) or if what I would consider baseline bullying in this age group is more intense than his expectations for "average"

I guess I work in a different district. Things like this happen on a daily basis but are typically a one or two day thing and then they end. Perhaps it's the demographics with which I work compared to this district. Perhaps it's the fact that our district sees kids start in kindergarten with each other and continue at the same schools throughout their lives so that each class of kids forms a really tight knit group of kids. I'm not sure. Perhaps what we see more of is harassment than true bullying.

[bronconick]

I just hate the idea of telling a kid to just deal with it and saying it's part of growing up. No adult would put up with that sort of crap at their job, and I imagine it's flat out illegal in most cases. And, if push comes to shove, you can get a new job (and probably find a lawyer). But teenagers, who actually take stuff like this to heart? Pssh, you'll be fine. Sometimes, it's not the suicides and school shootings that are shocking, it's that they don't happen more. Sure, you get told as a teenager that whatever you're angsting about isn't really that bad, and when you get the advantage of looking 15-20 years back in hindsight, you know they were right, but at the time, you don't always buy it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Perhaps what we see more of is harassment than true bullying.

Okay, that makes more sense to me I guess. Thanks for taking the question at face value & answering as such, I was legit confused.

[SportsDino]

The quantity of the bullying is why it isn't 'garden variety'. Even at the worst I can't recall any particular issue lasting more than a few days... this girl is being attacked for weeks.

The girl was being threatened with fights, by girls most likely 2 years older than her. She has multiple outright enemies and no doubt minor bullying coming from a large number of bandwagon bullies.

Not everyone is a crusty old curmudgeon who hates everyone and is invulnerable to peer pressure, is it so hard to believe a 15 year old girl can crack under that pressure?