If the Rams traded the 1.1 to the Steelers for Roethlisberger . . .

[albionmoonlight]

. . . which team do you think would have the better of the deal?

Basically, the right to Sam Bradford (and the obligation to pay him the 1.1 salary) for a QB that has won two Super Bowls, but probably molests women in the offseason.

[albionmoonlight]

dola:

worth noting that I have heard nothing saying that this would be on the table. It is just my idle speculation.

[Logan]

Anyone who doesn't say the Rams is crazy. Proven SB winning molesting QB at only base salaries vs an unproven guy with $40 million guaranteed who has gotten hurt the last two times he's been hit (not sure if that's 100% accurate, but read that recently).

[DeToxRox]

Hmm, a two time Superbowl champ (albeit overrated) or a QB who didn't call his own plays, has a shoulder that has exploded on impact the last two times it was hit, and may or may not be just a systems QB?

I don't think Bradford will necessarily bust but for the purpose of this, he probably won't ever do what Ben has done so far.

[Autumn]

But there's also the issue that the Rams are approximately six light years away from contending for anything, so how much use is Roth to them now? I don't know anything about Bradford, and it's not like Ben is over the hill for the Steelers, but trading in your QB for a #1 pick prospect before your team fades away is not a bad deal.

[cougarfreak]

Where is this option? The chicks in Pittsburgh, they wouldn't have to carry mace around near as much.

[Logan]

But there's also the issue that the Rams are approximately six light years away from contending for anything, so how much use is Roth to them now?

Gotta disagree. That team isn't completely barren. There were rumblings McNabb almost went to STL for the 2.1. I understand in this scenario they wouldn't have the 1.1 to draft Suh, but put those two players on the Rams and they are immediately a contender to win the NFC West. Add in a couple decent FA signings, and there's no reason they couldn't win a couple playoff games.

There's OL issues in STL...adding Ben who seems to do some pretty amazing things with a collapsing pocket could be interesting.

[tarcone]

Unless Big Ben is called Big Bendover in prison.

[JPhillips]

. . . which team do you think would have the better of the deal?

Basically, the right to Sam Bradford (and the obligation to pay him the 1.1 salary) for a QB that has won two Super Bowls, but probably molests women in the offseason.

Isn't it fairly presumptuous to assume he only molests women in the offseason?

[jbergey22]

Steelers

What the hell is big Ben going to do for the Rams other than suck up much needed cap room? The Rams are a long ways from being a playoff team therefore an aging QB in his prime isnt really a great investment.

It would be close to the Pirates going out and trading for Ryan Howard. It will add a few wins on the season but make no difference in the end result.

[jbergey22]

But there's also the issue that the Rams are approximately six light years away from contending for anything, so how much use is Roth to them now? I don't know anything about Bradford, and it's not like Ben is over the hill for the Steelers, but trading in your QB for a #1 pick prospect before your team fades away is not a bad deal.

+1

[Matthean]

You would need more than a 1.1 if you wanted to get Ben, warts and all.
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[jbergey22]

You would need more than a 1.1 if you wanted to get Ben, warts and all.
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True as well!

I dont think either team would even consider this trade. It would only hurt both teams.

[Izulde]

Steelers. Big Ben = overrated as hell.

[Swaggs]

I think the Rams easily get the best of this deal due to Roethlisberger having recently signed a huge extension (and already having the signing bonus in the bank). If you don't consider that, I think it's a little closer, but still favors the Rams due to the known vs unknown (+ the unknown's signing demands).

I imagine that Rams' fans would be pretty happy if Bradford turns into a Roethlisberger-like player when he hits his peak.

[Sgran]

I don't watch college football, so I don't know the QBs coming out, but whether the Rams keep the pick or trade down (which I would do) for more picks, I think they say no to the deal. See Cutler, J. (and yes, that's an attempt at a reverse-jinx from a Bears fan)

[Abe Sargent]

Steelers

What the hell is big Ben going to do for the Rams other than suck up much needed cap room? The Rams are a long ways from being a playoff team therefore an aging QB in his prime isnt really a great investment.

It would be close to the Pirates going out and trading for Ryan Howard. It will add a few wins on the season but make no difference in the end result.

Ummm, jbergey - there is no salary cap any more. Therefore, there is no cap room.

[Logan]

And as Swaggs and I have pointed out...signing bonuses are paid by, and stick with, the signing team. So even if the cap gets worked out, he would only cost the Rams his base salary for the duration of his contract.

[Dr. Sak]

It would be close to the Pirates going out and trading for Ryan Howard. It will add a few wins on the season but make no difference in the end result.

They could've had him a few years ago but turned down a trade saying the Phillies were asking too much in Kip Wells :)

[chesapeake]

Hasn't Ben had his brain scrambled several times now? A quick googling shows at least 3 concussions as a Steeler by mid-2008. His off-field antics indicate to me that his brain as it is currently constituted doesn't run particularly well as it is; any more brain trauma could be career-ending. Ben may last for another 10 years, but I'm taking the guy with the bad shoulder.

[BYU 14]

Toss up, if Ben fixes his off field issues Rams would get the better of the deal, so long a he can stay healthy. That is a big if, since he won't have the supporting cast he had in Pittsburgh.

QB's are the toughest position to predict in terms of NFL success. Bradford gives you someone who won't get into trouble off the field, but he is fragile and once you start getting Shoulder injuries, you are more susceptible to recurrences. He would benefit from not being expected to be a savior, like Roesthlisberger his first year.

Im went with Rams, just because I question how Bradford will hold up with his Shoulder issues.

[korme]

You would need more than a 1.1 if you wanted to get Ben, warts and all.
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Doubtful. This is the NFL! The easiest league to trade bad picks for good players!

[Noop]

Holy shit Shorty is back!!!!!!!!!

[MikeVic]

Don't go away korme!!!!!!!!

[Pyser]

great hypothetical

and welcome back, shorty! the movie thread thrives.

[Arles]

I think it's terrible for both teams. The Steelers are close to a SB and take a huge step back with a rookie QB (esp a brittle one with their OL). The Rams are 3-4 years from sniffing contention, so they basically waste the prime of Big Ben with a crappy team.

If this deal happened, both GMs should be fired ;)

[Autumn]

I think it's terrible for both teams. The Steelers are close to a SB and take a huge step back with a rookie QB (esp a brittle one with their OL). The Rams are 3-4 years from sniffing contention, so they basically waste the prime of Big Ben with a crappy team.

If this deal happened, both GMs should be fired ;)

Yeah, that's the truth of the matter there.

[Maple Leafs]

. . . probably molests women in the offseason.
There's actually no evidence that he molests more than one woman per offseason.

[flere-imsaho]

Isn't it fairly presumptuous to assume he only molests women in the offseason?

:D

You would need more than a 1.1 if you wanted to get Ben, warts and all.

Genital warts, maybe.

[jbergey22]

Ummm, jbergey - there is no salary cap any more. Therefore, there is no cap room.

I suppose that is true how easily I forget. Teams are still acting like there is a cap and I would expect it to come back.

[stevew]

Ben to the Bills for 1.9, a third rounder and the bills number one next year.

Can't see the steelers taking Bradford. Plus Dixon at least deserves a real shot. Unless Bradford is the opening day starter you run the risk of dividing a locker room when Bradford eventually takes over for financial reasons(especially if Dixon is average or better).

[primelord]

That team isn't completely barren. There were rumblings McNabb almost went to STL for the 2.1. I understand in this scenario they wouldn't have the 1.1 to draft Suh, but put those two players on the Rams and they are immediately a contender to win the NFC West. Add in a couple decent FA signings, and there's no reason they couldn't win a couple playoff games.

This is incorrect. Trust me I have watched every single Rams game since they came to St. Louis. The cupboard in St. Louis is quite bare.

Pairing up a good QB to go along with Steven Jackson would obviously make them better, but they are super thin at WR. Donnie Avery has shown a little promise, and playing with Bulger has not done him any favors, but he is not a real #1 wideout. After Avery you have the legion of "upside" guys who there is no real reason to believe they are going to turn into more than #3 or #4 type guys. Robinson, Burton, Gibson, etc all have shown minor flashes (you can argue Robinson has done more than that, but I wasn't as in love with him as the rest of the city was when he went down last year). Danny Amendola caught 43 balls last year. That should be proof enough how thin they are.

As you said the offensive line certainly has issues and the defense is awful. Again the fact that they were very happy re-sign James Hall, who is average at best, is awful telling.

I wish you were right and they were not as far away as they are, but that just isn't the case. Adding McNabb and Suh would not make them a playoff contender this year even in the West. I don;t agree that they are light years away either, as that just isn't the nature of the NFL. Teams are able to turn it around quickly all the time, and I am not even saying doing something like making the move for McNabb when he was out there wouldn't have been the best course. It just wouldn't have been enough for them to compete this year.

[stevew]

Speaking of the Rams.......
Why isn't AmenDola a meme round these parts.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Speaking of the Rams.......
Why isn't AmenDola a meme round these parts.
Because nobody on this board can name more than two Rams. Hell, whenever I try to name two, the second guess is always Jeff Wilkins.

[NewIdentity]

Because nobody on this board can name more than two Rams. Hell, whenever I try to name two, the second guess is always Jeff Wilkins.
And, the first one is either Kurt Warner or Marc Bulger. :)

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

dola:

worth noting that I have heard nothing saying that this would be on the table. It is just my idle speculation.

see what you did (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/04/13/already-the-big-ben-trade-rumors-start/)

[tucker rocky]

I read somewhere awhile back, that Ben was doing some sort of,
"if you're not down, then suck it".

I assume this was/is his M.O. recently.

[albionmoonlight]

see what you did (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/04/13/already-the-big-ben-trade-rumors-start/)

Hmmm.

According to this poll, the 1.1 for Big Ben seems like a fair-ish deal (though I think that, personally, I agree with Arlie. It's fair in that it is a bad deal for each team).

This rumor has the 1.1 plus first year's number 1. So, if the Rams do that, they are quite foolish, I think.

[cuervo72]

Huh. The Sports Reporters show in DC wondered if you could really get much of anything for Roethlisberger, between off-field stupidity and concussion concerns. I don't know if I'd go that far, but I think 1.1 is crazy talk.

[JPhillips]

Yeah, if the Steelers could get 1.1 and next year's 1 they should take it right away.

That's Dan Snyder crazy.

[albionmoonlight]

That is, of course, a Pittsburgh paper pulling that rumor out of its butt. I'm sure that the St. L papers are floating rumors of Ben for the 2.1.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Calling it now:

Roethlisberger to the Raiders for Heyward-Bey, Gallery, and Bubb Rubb or whatever the hell his name is.

[MikeVic]

Calling it now:

Roethlisberger to the Raiders for Heyward-Bey, Gallery, and Bubb Rubb or whatever the hell his name is.

Parise to the IR with a broken leg.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Parise to the IR with a broken leg.
help

[MikeVic]

help

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_29WRBdtyz68/Smma2Af9ZWI/AAAAAAAACZA/YKw7uPl-ZIY/s400/parise_spread1.jpg

[Pumpy Tudors]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_29WRBdtyz68/Smma2Af9ZWI/AAAAAAAACZA/YKw7uPl-ZIY/s400/parise_spread1.jpg
ooh zach you are welcome to bust through my wall anytime

and wear that river rats jersey

hell yes

[SteveMax58]

I'm surprised this poll is even close, let alone in favor of the Steelers benefitting.

An elite NFL QB is still the most difficult role to find for an NFL franchise. The Steelers will instantly become the Steelers of the 80's while they try to find a new one.

I think we've gotten a little too used to the early successes of some QBs (which only recently started with Ben himself). We see Matt Ryan, Flacco, and maybe a couple others that do well but they are still extremely rare...and neither of those guys are as good as Ben anyway.

Ben has at least 6-7 years of top 5 NFL QB performance left in him (if not more). The Rams may never get a franchise QB for 10 or more seasons.

[Atocep]

I'm surprised this poll is even close, let alone in favor of the Steelers benefitting.

An elite NFL QB is still the most difficult role to find for an NFL franchise. The Steelers will instantly become the Steelers of the 80's while they try to find a new one.

I think we've gotten a little too used to the early successes of some QBs (which only recently started with Ben himself). We see Matt Ryan, Flacco, and maybe a couple others that do well but they are still extremely rare...and neither of those guys are as good as Ben anyway.

Ben has at least 6-7 years of top 5 NFL QB performance left in him (if not more). The Rams may never get a franchise QB for 10 or more seasons.

I'm waiting to see year 1 of top 5 qb performance.

[MikeVic]

Not sure about dominance, but 2007 and last year were pretty damn good.

[jbergey22]

Im sure there has been a better player than Big Ben in every NFL draft perhaps we are just very confident in our scouting ability.

[SteveMax58]

I'm waiting to see year 1 of top 5 qb performance.

What metric are you holding him to?

QB Rating
#5 in 2009, #2 in 2007, #3 in 2005, #5 in 2004

2-time SB Champion QB

[DaddyTorgo]

QB rating is the world's biggest black-box stat that isn't relevant. it's like judging hitters solely based on batting average.

try something like football outsiders' DYAR rating (This gives the value of the quarterback's performance compared to replacement level, adjusted for situation and opponent and then translated into yardage.) his highest was 8th this past year.

[SteveMax58]

QB rating is the world's biggest black-box stat that isn't relevant. it's like judging hitters solely based on batting average.

try something like football outsiders' DYAR rating (This gives the value of the quarterback's performance compared to replacement level, adjusted for situation and opponent and then translated into yardage.) his highest was 8th this past year.

ok...

[Blackadar]

QB rating is the world's biggest black-box stat that isn't relevant. it's like judging hitters solely based on batting average.

try something like football outsiders' DYAR rating (This gives the value of the quarterback's performance compared to replacement level, adjusted for situation and opponent and then translated into yardage.) his highest was 8th this past year.

Talk about cherry picking...

I don't think anyone would argue that QB rating is perfect, but made up stats don't count. How about we stick to something simple, like winning. Who had more wins than Big Ben in their first 5 years in the league? Oh, that's right...no one in history. Sorry, I'll take the guy who wins games and has two Super Bowl rings over some very obscure stat any day. It's interesting that a stat like that would have also been very unkind to another all-time great - John Elway. All he did was win games too.

By the way, if you like made up stats, you could always go with KWP, which has Big Ben as the 17th best QB in history.

[DaddyTorgo]

Talk about cherry picking...

I don't think anyone would argue that QB rating is perfect, but made up stats don't count. How about we stick to something simple, like winning. Who had more wins than Big Ben in their first 5 years in the league? Oh, that's right...no one in history. Sorry, I'll take the guy who wins games and has two Super Bowl rings over some very obscure stat any day. It's interesting that a stat like that would have also been very unkind to another all-time great - John Elway. All he did was win games too.

By the way, if you like made up stats, you could always go with KWP, which has Big Ben as the 17th best QB in history.

Winning is affected by the whole team...not just the QB. The offense and the defense. While in a team sport like football it's probably very difficult to remove the effect of all other plays and isolate a player's true value, winning goes in the extreme opposite direction.

Hint: Big Ben is not the best QB in NFL history.

[MikeVic]

You can argue that Big Ben is a jackass of a person or whatever, I won't argue there. But I don't see how you can argue he isn't one of the better QBs in the league right now, and a potential top 5 year-in year-out. Especially considering the state of the OLine. He does what they need him to do, and does it pretty damn good. And he wins.

[MikeVic]

Hint: Big Ben is not the best QB in NFL history.

No way!!!!! Thanks for he news flash!!!!!!!!!

[stevew]

Hint: Big Ben is not the best QB in NFL history.

No shit?

I don't think you'd hear anyone make that argument. He's in the top 5 just about every year though.

[Blackadar]

What metric are you holding him to?

QB Rating
#5 in 2009, #2 in 2007, #3 in 2005, #5 in 2004

2-time SB Champion QB

The metric of "I hate Ben Roethlisberger". Heard the same kind of claptrap from Elway, Bradshaw and Tarkington haters too. Those guys are all in the HoF now.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I like Ben as a player, but calling DYAR a "made-up stat" seems a little small minded.

[SteveMax58]

Hint: Big Ben is not the best QB in NFL history.

DT...out of curiosity...what 5 QBs would you rather have as your QB than Ben? I'm talking about YOU are the owner of the Steelers and EVERY team has offered their QB for him? Who would you take?

I'd take:

Peyton
Drew Brees
Tom Brady
????
????

Rivers? Palmer? Rogers? Eli? I wouldnt take any of them over Ben.

[DaddyTorgo]

DT...out of curiosity...what 5 QBs would you rather have as your QB than Ben? I'm talking about YOU are the owner of the Steelers and EVERY team has offered their QB for him? Who would you take?

I'd take:

Peyton
Drew Brees
Tom Brady
????
????

Rivers? Palmer? Rogers? Eli? I wouldnt take any of them over Ben.

Fair question:

Peyton/Brady/Brees/Schaub/Rivers/Flacco for starters. Probably Aaron Rodgers and Matt Ryan betting on their upside too, depending on the rest of the team I had.

[MikeVic]

Fair question:

Peyton/Brady/Brees/Schaub/Rivers/Flacco for starters. Probably Aaron Rodgers and Matt Ryan betting on their upside too, depending on the rest of the team I had.

You'd honestly take fucking Flacco? And Schaub?

[Dr. Sak]

Fair question:

Peyton/Brady/Brees/Schaub/Rivers/Flacco for starters. Probably Aaron Rodgers and Matt Ryan betting on their upside too, depending on the rest of the team I had.

In the words of Brennan Huff....ARE YOU FUCKING HIGH?

[Blackadar]

Winning is affected by the whole team...not just the QB. The offense and the defense. While in a team sport like football it's probably very difficult to remove the effect of all other plays and isolate a player's true value, winning goes in the extreme opposite direction.

Hint: Big Ben is not the best QB in NFL history.

Yea, well..how did the Steelers go from 6-10 to 15-1 when Ben took over the helm as a rookie with few other changes to the lineup? You really want to try to argue that the guy with the most wins in NFL history in his first 5 years (I think it's 6 now) is somehow mediocre? You want to argue that a guy who regularly finishes in the top 5 in the statistic that the NFL goes by is somehow an average QB? Good luck with that uphill battle. Personally, I think your opinion is absurdly incorrect. You might as well be arguing that Roger Staubach sucked ass.

Hint: I never said he was. But when you look at the statistic that counts - wins - he tops everyone else and I think he's 2nd in winning percentage all-time.

[DaddyTorgo]

I had my 5th spot as a tie between Flacco/Rodgers/Matt Ryan/the corpse of Kurt Warner FYI. Maybe I didn't express that quite clearly enough.

[SteveMax58]

Fair question:

Peyton/Brady/Brees/Schaub/Rivers/Flacco for starters. Probably Aaron Rodgers and Matt Ryan betting on their upside too, depending on the rest of the team I had.

You're screwing with me...right?

[DaddyTorgo]

Yea, well..how did the Steelers go from 6-10 to 15-1 when Ben took over the helm as a rookie with few other changes to the lineup? You really want to try to argue that the guy with the most wins in NFL history in his first 5 years (I think it's 6 now) is somehow mediocre? You want to argue that a guy who regularly finishes in the top 5 in the statistic that the NFL goes by is somehow an average QB? Good luck with that uphill battle. Personally, I think your opinion is absurdly incorrect. You might as well be arguing that Roger Staubach sucked ass.

Hint: I never said he was. But when you look at the statistic that counts - wins - he tops everyone else and I think he's 2nd in winning percentage all-time.

they ran the fucking ball 900 times a game that year and had a strong defense. He had what...10-14 pass attempts per game that year? he's a good GAME MANAGER, but that doesn't make him a good QUARTERBACK

[Blackadar]

You'd honestly take fucking Flacco? And Schaub?

He would. And he'd lose games because of it. :lol:

[MikeVic]

You just hate Big Ben, no use arguing with you anymore. I respect other opinions and I'll leave it at that. I just don't think you can convince me Flacco, Schaub, and apparently a retired Warner are better QB options in a one-for-one trade.

[Blackadar]

they ran the fucking ball 900 times a game that year and had a strong defense. He had what...10-14 pass attempts per game that year? he's a good GAME MANAGER, but that doesn't make him a good QUARTERBACK

No, he's a great Quarterback. That's why the Steelers consistently can come back in the 4th quarter - 22 4th quarter comebacks in 6 years isn't a fluke. Game managers don't do that. Find me another "game manager" in NFL history that has that many comebacks, that many wins, Super Bowl titles and the statistics. I'll be waiting.

[stevew]

DT is a hater.

[Blackadar]

DT is a hater.

I was wondering if he's actually seen an NFL game this decade.

[albionmoonlight]

I almost didn't post this topic. I'm glad that I did. You never know what will get people's dander up.

[Logan]

I'm not going to destroy DT's list since it's already being done, but the only one who is even comparable, and would be considered to round out the top 5 with Ben and the 3 initially mentioned, is Rivers. And he has only had moderate success in the playoffs (some crap, some middle, some great performances).

[Blackadar]

I almost didn't post this topic. I'm glad that I did. You never know what will get people's dander up.

Well goddamnit, someone is wrong on the Internet! :D

[Atocep]

No, he's a great Quarterback. That's why the Steelers consistently can come back in the 4th quarter - 22 4th quarter comebacks in 6 years isn't a fluke. Game managers don't do that. Find me another "game manager" in NFL history that has that many comebacks, that many wins, Super Bowl titles and the statistics. I'll be waiting.


You've made it quite clear on this board that you hate any statistic created after the 1970s so I know heading into this post that this is useless to even attempt.

QB rating is a terrible stat. I ask you to post the components of that stat and explain to me exactly how it's better than a stat that rates a player on a per-play basis adjusted for opponent.

As for where Ben stands among other QBs, Manning, Brees, Rivers, and Brady are on another level. Ben isn't in the ballpark of those 4. After that, if we're talking about one season you could make an arguement that Ben is that 5th QB, but you can easily make a case for Rodgers and Eli Manning. If you want to stretch that into who I'd want running a team for the next 5 years I'd put Flacco and Matt Ryan over Big Ben.

Those that are singing Ben's praises are conveniently forgetting to mention that he didn't attempt 300 passes his first 2 years in the league, in '06 he had 18tds, 23ints, and was sacked 47 times. In '08 he had 17tds, 15ints, and was sacked 46 times. Ben has not consistently been a good QB. I have very hard time accepting him as a great QB.

Roethlisberger has played in nearly ideal conditions for a QB. He's part of one of the 2-3 best organizations in the NFL. He's consistently played on a team with defenses that have ranged from very good to great. He's had a good running game every year except for '08. He's also played with a very good receiver (2 last season) and a very good pass catching tight end.

4th quarter comebacks are all nice and everything, but Drew Bledsoe had 32 in his career. Are you going to tell me that having a good coach, good running game, good receivers, and a great defense don't play just as large of a role in 4th quarter comebacks as the QB?

[Blackadar]

You've made it quite clear on this board that you hate any statistic created after the 1970s so I know heading into this post that this is useless to even attempt.

I provided another alternate stat that showed Ben as the 17th best QB of all time. What, you didn't like that? If you like alternate number crunching, feel free to go out there and browse. Personally, I prefer to use the stats the NFL does...wins being one of the main ones.

QB rating is a terrible stat. I ask you to post the components of that stat and explain to me exactly how it's better than a stat that rates a player on a per-play basis adjusted for opponent.

When someone comes up with another "game manager" that has accomplished what Ben has, perhaps I'll be more motivated to do so. Until then, I have no interest in breaking down alternate QB rating methods. Or maybe if I find the motivation, I'll break down the one I mentioned earlier.

As for where Ben stands among other QBs, Manning, Brees, Rivers, and Brady are on another level. Ben isn't in the ballpark of those 4. After that, if we're talking about one season you could make an arguement that Ben is that 5th QB, but you can easily make a case for Rodgers and Eli Manning. If you want to stretch that into who I'd want running a team for the next 5 years I'd put Flacco and Matt Ryan over Big Ben.

First, let's start with Rivers. You're right, he's on another level. One below Ben. San Diego has been known for having some of the best talent, if not THE best talent, in the league for some years now. And their stats are quite similar in terms of completion percentage, QB rating, etc.

The major differences? Ben is 8-2 in the playoffs and Rivers is 3-3. Ben has a significantly better QB rating, even with that 22.6 rating in his first Super Bowl. Ben has 50% more 4th quarter comebacks. Ben has won far more games and they started in the league in the same year. Finally, Ben has two rings. Rivers? None.

In a nutshell, Rivers can't hold Ben's jock.

(Though if he does, he might want to spray a little disinfectant on his hands once he's done)

And if you want Flacco and Ryan, then that's fine. Both are good QBs (personally, I'd rather have Flacco). But that's like asking for Mark Bulger over Troy Aikman. Personally, I'll take the winner. I'll break down those guys below.

Rogers and Eli? You're off your fucking rocker and those aren't even worth responding to.

Those that are singing Ben's praises are conveniently forgetting to mention that he didn't attempt 300 passes his first 2 years in the league, in '06 he had 18tds, 23ints, and was sacked 47 times. In '08 he had 17tds, 15ints, and was sacked 46 times. Ben has not consistently been a good QB. I have very hard time accepting him as a great QB.

Roethlisberger has played in nearly ideal conditions for a QB. He's part of one of the 2-3 best organizations in the NFL. He's consistently played on a team with defenses that have ranged from very good to great. He's had a good running game every year except for '08. He's also played with a very good receiver (2 last season) and a very good pass catching tight end.

Damn skippy he grew into the role. Ben was one of the few rookie QBs ever to be successful. He was not projected to be NFL ready when he came out (small school syndrome) and suddenly is thrust into the starting lineup and did splendidly. Now this is a problem? Even guys like Peyton Manning had growing problems (look it up).

He's been consistently good by virtually any standard. Until the last couple of years, he hasn't consistently been great. Now, he's fantastic. From an offensive standpoint, he's carried that team the last two years. Watch the final drive in that last Super Bowl...there's not another QB in the league who could have pulled that off. No one has that kind of play making, scrambling and improvisation in the league. No one.

As for his team conditions, they've been very good, but you're overstating the matter. He's played for two coaches and over the last couple of years has an offensive line that requires him to run for his life and a very poor/inconsistent running game. Yet he's had his best statistical seasons when he's had to carry the team. His conditions are certainly no better than Rivers, yet he's succeeded and Rivers hasn't. Why is that?

I can't judge Ryan or Flacco since they're still young, but both are also in optimal situations. Both are damn fine players. Yet Ryan regressed last season and Flacco, in an optimal situation with the Ravens, only won 9 games. Never mind Flacco's playoff performances (QB rating: 46.5) have been downright awful. Why is that? You'd want a guy who has 1td and 6ints in the playoffs more than Ben? I guess you like losing?

4th quarter comebacks are all nice and everything, but Drew Bledsoe had 32 in his career. Are you going to tell me that having a good coach, good running game, good receivers, and a great defense don't play just as large of a role in 4th quarter comebacks as the QB?

What does it say when your best comparison on 4th quarter comebacks is Bledsoe (Pro Football Reference says he has 31), who played for 14 years while Ben has 22 in just 6 years?

It's funny, I heard the same exact type of complaints about another gunslinger who scrambled a lot and just found ways to win. He has a 79.9 career passer rating, yet had more wins than any other QB when he retired, had 50 comebacks and is now acknowledged as one of the all time greats. You might have heard of him because he's in the HoF now - John Elway.

[Blackadar]

Oh, in all the guys mentioned above, I like to do the trade test. If teams wanted to swap players even up (money being equal), do they pull the trigger?


Big Ben/Peyton Manning: Indy laughs and hangs up the phone.
Big Ben/Tom Brady: NE quickly says no.
Big Ben/Drew Brees: NO says no.
Big Ben/Rivers: San Diego takes the deal in a heartbeat
Big Ben/Flacco: Baltimore thinks a bit and realizes that Ben gets them better right now. They take the deal.
Big Ben/Matt Ryan: Atlanta looks at Ryan's game tape from last year and takes the deal.
Big Ben/Eli Manning: Giants say yes and thank the Lord that the Rooneys have lost their fucking minds.
Big Ben/Aaron Rodgers: Green Bay thinks about it and says no. Both teams breathe a sigh of relief.

[DeToxRox]

Oh, in all the guys mentioned above, I like to do the trade test. If teams wanted to swap players even up (money being equal), do they pull the trigger?


Big Ben/Peyton Manning: Indy laughs and hangs up the phone.
Big Ben/Tom Brady: NE quickly says no.
Big Ben/Drew Brees: NO says no.
Big Ben/Rivers: San Diego takes the deal in a heartbeat
Big Ben/Flacco: Baltimore thinks a bit and realizes that Ben gets them better right now. They take the deal.
Big Ben/Matt Ryan: Atlanta looks at Ryan's game tape from last year and takes the deal.
Big Ben/Eli Manning: Giants say yes and thank the Lord that the Rooneys have lost their fucking minds.
Big Ben/Aaron Rodgers: Green Bay thinks about it and says no. Both teams breathe a sigh of relief.


San Diego would tell Pittsburgh to get the fuck out in a Rivers/Ben swap. Get the fuck outta here.

[Masked]

Big Ben/Rivers: San Diego takes the deal in a heartbeat

Not a chance

Ben + first round pick wouldn't be enough to convince SD to take that deal

[thesloppy]

Purely for the record, Chilly would never trade away his ol' buddy Brett.

[Atocep]

I provided another alternate stat that showed Ben as the 17th best QB of all time. What, you didn't like that? If you like alternate number crunching, feel free to go out there and browse. Personally, I prefer to use the stats the NFL does...wins being one of the main ones.

Yes, winning. It's 100% on the shoulders of a QB. A great way to measure and separate quality QBs.



First, let's start with Rivers. You're right, he's on another level. One below Ben. San Diego has been known for having some of the best talent, if not THE best talent, in the league for some years now. And their stats are quite similar in terms of completion percentage, QB rating, etc.

The major differences? Ben is 8-2 in the playoffs and Rivers is 3-3. Ben has a significantly better QB rating, even with that 22.6 rating in his first Super Bowl. Ben has 50% more 4th quarter comebacks. Ben has won far more games and they started in the league in the same year. Finally, Ben has two rings. Rivers? None.

Rivers and Ben have quite similar meaningless stats. That's impressive. How did Ben do in the playoffs last season, btw?

Prove to me that 4th quarter comebacks are on the QB over the defense, head coach, running game, ect and I'll listen.


In a nutshell, Rivers can't hold Ben's jock.

When it comes to team accomplishments I agree.


And if you want Flacco and Ryan, then that's fine. Both are good QBs (personally, I'd rather have Flacco). But that's like asking for Mark Bulger over Troy Aikman. Personally, I'll take the winner. I'll break down those guys below.

Do you seriously think winning is an individual skill?



Rogers and Eli? You're off your fucking rocker and those aren't even worth responding to.

Your bias is showing. Statistically they've been better than Ben, playing on worse teams, and Eli even has that super bowl win that automatically makes him one of the best QBs of all time.



He's been consistently good by virtually any standard. Until the last couple of years, he hasn't consistently been great. Now, he's fantastic. From an offensive standpoint, he's carried that team the last two years. Watch the final drive in that last Super Bowl...there's not another QB in the league who could have pulled that off. No one has that kind of play making, scrambling and improvisation in the league. No one.

We obviously are going to disagree on the definition of consistency. Bad in '06 and '08 while good in '07 and '09 is not consistent in any way.

The final drive? Not another QB in the league that could pull it off? Let me introduce you to sample size and hyperbole.


As for his team conditions, they've been very good, but you're overstating the matter. He's played for two coaches and over the last couple of years has an offensive line that requires him to run for his life and a very poor/inconsistent running game. Yet he's had his best statistical seasons when he's had to carry the team. His conditions are certainly no better than Rivers, yet he's succeeded and Rivers hasn't. Why is that?

2 coaches over the last couple of years? Wow, life has been hard on Big Ben. I don't know how he's been able to overcome such a disadvantage.

He runs for his life and is in the top 3 in sacks every year because he holds onto the ball too long.



I can't judge Ryan or Flacco since they're still young, but both are also in optimal situations. Both are damn fine players. Yet Ryan regressed last season and Flacco, in an optimal situation with the Ravens, only won 9 games. Never mind Flacco's playoff performances (QB rating: 46.5) have been downright awful. Why is that? You'd want a guy who has 1td and 6ints in the playoffs more than Ben? I guess you like losing?

Flacco is in his 2nd year. I stated I'd take him over Roethlisberger over the next 5 years. Playoff stats? Sample size, sample size, sample size, sample size.

Like losing? No, just as I'd take ARod over Jeter in clutch situation, I'll take the better player over the perception that winning is an individual skill, clutch a skill at all, and all sorts of other ideas people form to make players fit what they want them to be.



What does it say when your best comparison on 4th quarter comebacks is Bledsoe (Pro Football Reference says he has 31), who played for 14 years while Ben has 22 in just 6 years?

Absolutely nothing. Which is what 4th quarter comebacks as a statistic tell me.



It's funny, I heard the same exact type of complaints about another gunslinger who scrambled a lot and just found ways to win. He has a 79.9 career passer rating, yet had more wins than any other QB when he retired, had 50 comebacks and is now acknowledged as one of the all time greats. You might have heard of him because he's in the HoF now - John Elway.

I heard Elway wasn't a winner and couldn't win a big game until he got a coach, a defense, a running game, and receivers. Then all I heard was how Elway had suddenly become a winner.

Winning = an individual skill that magically develops when everyone around you gets better.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Big Ben/Rivers: San Diego takes the deal in a heartbeat

Okay, time to put down the crack pipe.

Big Ben/Matt Ryan: Atlanta looks at the Vick p.r. fiasco & says no way Jose

Fixed that one for you.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

this thread is madness

[bhlloy]

hahaha we'd take Roethlisberger for Rivers in a heartbeat... wait you were serious?

[Blackadar]

Rivers and Ben have quite similar meaningless stats.

Statistically they've been better than Ben, playing on worse teams, and Eli even has that super bowl win that automatically makes him one of the best QBs of all time.


It's statements like these that show me it's useless to argue because you're not even attempting to argue honestly.

Now all accepted NFL stats are meaningless?

Wins don't matter?

And then in your next paragraph, you make the claim Eli has better stats? Not only is this absolutely false but you've offered nothing to back up any of your other claims. Thanks for making it easy for me to chalk your posts up as trolling and subsequently dismiss them.

[Pumpy Tudors]

One half: Sky is blue
Other half: Blackhawks

[Izulde]

Never was Blackadar's location more appropriate for his posts than in this thread.

[Radii]

Fixed that one for you.


A big +1 to that on atlanta being interested in Roethlisberger, I was going to post the same thing.

[Radii]

Ok after reading this a bit more... there's no possible way you can just discuss on the field performance when talking about who would trade for Roethlisberger. You can be a fan of his and love him on your team but if you think that the motorcycle incident, two sexual assault scandals(even though he was never charged, yes I realize that), and four concussions by the age of 27 don't destroy his trade value you just aren't being rational. There is zero doubt in my mind that Manning/Brady/Brees/Rivers/Rodgers would never be traded straight up for Roethlisberger. There is no way that Atlanta would trade for him as often as he's been in the news so often and so soon after the Vick debacle. I think the Jets and Ravens would rather keep their young promising QB's than take the chance on Big Ben.


I could just quote Cuervo really:


Huh. The Sports Reporters show in DC wondered if you could really get much of anything for Roethlisberger, between off-field stupidity and concussion concerns. I don't know if I'd go that far, but I think 1.1 is crazy talk.

I'm not saying that all of those QB's are better than Big Ben, but that his value is nowhere near as high as some of ya'll are making it between his growing history of concussions and consistent mention in the news off the field.

[Neuqua]

Blackadar has gone insane.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Blackadar has gone insane.

On the bright side, at least it was a short trip for him.

[Blackadar]

On the bright side, at least it was a short trip for him.

I wasn't surprised to find you at the destination.

[JPhillips]

I'm not saying that all of those QB's are better than Big Ben, but that his value is nowhere near as high as some of ya'll are making it between his growing history of concussions and consistent mention in the news off the field.

And the probability that there won't be football in 2011.

[Blackadar]

Ok after reading this a bit more... there's no possible way you can just discuss on the field performance when talking about who would trade for Roethlisberger. You can be a fan of his and love him on your team but if you think that the motorcycle incident, two sexual assault scandals(even though he was never charged, yes I realize that), and four concussions by the age of 27 don't destroy his trade value you just aren't being rational. There is zero doubt in my mind that Manning/Brady/Brees/Rivers/Rodgers would never be traded straight up for Roethlisberger. There is no way that Atlanta would trade for him as often as he's been in the news so often and so soon after the Vick debacle. I think the Jets and Ravens would rather keep their young promising QB's than take the chance on Big Ben


Maybe I wasn't clear, but I've been talking about solely on-the-field performances. But you're right that none of those teams would touch him right now, even though the DA has said there's no reasonable belief that Ben committed a crime. There's just too much baggage.

(Yes, he did say that when he said there was no probable cause, because that's what probable cause means)

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

as much as i dislike him for looking and acting like a waterhead, he is good at what he does. which is play qb like the big brother in a backyard football game.

you'd never hear anyone say, 'he'd be good for our system' because his system is wait until someone gets open.

[Blackadar]

as much as i dislike him for looking and acting like a waterhead, he is good at what he does. which is play qb like the big brother in a backyard football game.

you'd never hear anyone say, 'he'd be good for our system' because his system is wait until someone gets open.

And run for his life since his OL can't block worth a damn. :D

[flere-imsaho]

Pittsburgh's OL clearly had some issues, but Ben has admitted that he creates a good number of the sacks he takes by holding onto the ball longer than he should.

To me, Roethlisberger is a freelancer in the Favre mold. He wants to win more than he wants stats, and he'll risk a lot to gain yards, wait for a receiver to get open, or force a ball into a tough slot. There's both good and bad to this.

On the good side he clearly can pull out some wins where wins should not happen. The 4th-quarter comebacks spring to mind as good examples. He's also clearly a problem for opposing defenses. Whereas someone like Rivers or Eli might just go through a progression and then toss the ball away, Roethlisberger will use his size & strength to prolong the play. It has to wear a defense out, mentally and physically.

But it's also a con. He gets nailed a lot, despite his size. Sometimes a string of risky choices will not go his way and he's just dug a deeper hole. How many of those 4th-quarter comebacks, for instance, were necessary because he got his team in a position to lose?

Because he's won two Super Bowls, however, we, like with Favre, tend to remember the risks that went well.

This is not to say he isn't a good, or even great QB. It's just to say that he's a QB whose true value to his team is harder than normal to determine, and I would suggest, based on what I've seen, that he is, in fact, somewhat overrated.