Alright boyz, here we go!!! Draft Day Sports: Pro Basketball 2 First Impressions

[Sweed]

With virtually no replies since Gary posted in this thread Draft Day Sports: Pro Basketball 2 - Front Office Football Central (http://operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=79383) 3 hours ago I thought I'd bring this information front and center.

We can either leave this thread stand or maybe better a mod could delete it and change the title of Gary's thread to let everyone know the demo has been released.

Almost forgot.. a link to the demo at wolverine

DDS:PB2 Demo NOW AVAILABLE! - Wolverine Studios (http://www.wolverinestudios.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11178)

[BYU 14]

Downloaded it, will play around with lt later after the afternoon football games are over.

[DaddyTorgo]

will DL and check it out after I mess with this WWI game demo this afternoon

[DaddyTorgo]

Me likey. I wish there was a way to see more statistics on a guy during the draft though. Before the workouts on that screen you can see their 3-point % and FG % and everything else, but then once in the war room you can't see all that info. It sure would be nice...

[BYU 14]

will DL and check it out after I mess with this WWI game demo this afternoon

Not to thread jack, but what do you think of WW1?

[DaddyTorgo]

It's interesting...seems like there's a lot to it though.

I need to give it some more time to get a sense of how to do the battles and all.

I don't like it as much as I like ACW I don't think...but we'll see after I give it more time.

[Icy]

Hope you guys like the interface :)

[DaddyTorgo]

Hope you guys like the interface :)

it's lovely.

think i'm going to go off and see "The Town" and play it more later

[Big Fo]

Is there any way I can maximize the program window or drag it so I can see everything at once without having to use scroll bars? So far it seems like I am stuck seeing about 80% of the info both horizontally and vertically.

And the entry fields/checkmarks seem to be misaligned. Maybe something got messed up when I installed the demo.

[Icy]

Is there any way I can maximize the program window or drag it so I can see everything at once without having to use scroll bars? So far it seems like I am stuck seeing about 80% of the info both horizontally and vertically.

And the entry fields/checkmarks seem to be misaligned. Maybe something got messed up when I installed the demo.

The game uses a fixed size of 1024x768 and the standard 96dpi font size. A different dpi settings will make things to look misplaced, etc.

[Big Fo]

The game uses a fixed size of 1024x768 and the standard 96dpi font size. A different dpi settings will make things to look misplaced, etc.

Ah. I use a bigger font size since I have a large monitor and have it set back pretty far on my desk. I switched my font settings and now I don't have those problems anymore. Inconvenient but it works I guess.

[Tim Tellean]

two things one the screen is stuck for me in a minimized view so it only covers like half of mu laptop screen which is 18 inch. Also, I do not see a way to proceed to the season to start simming games in the regular season after doing the rookie class for 2011. There is no clear indication where to go what to do.

On the top toolbar should be a basketball icon. Click it.

[Tim Tellean]

Ah. I use a bigger font size since I have a large monitor and have it set back pretty far on my desk. I switched my font settings and now I don't have those problems anymore. Inconvenient but it works I guess.

We are looking at this now, but it involves alot of rewrite so maybe in DDS:Pro Football. :)

[Bad-example]

First impressions...cluttered interface hurts my face...not very intuitive...lack of full screen is a biggie for me...no tool tips for icons at bottom...unsure I will spend more time on it or not.

[Tim Tellean]

First impressions...cluttered interface hurts my face...not very intuitive...lack of full screen is a biggie for me...no tool tips for icons at bottom...unsure I will spend more time on it or not.

If you click Help from within the game or open the game folder you will find a manual that explains everything.

I hate to see you dismiss a game so quickly. I think the icons at the bottom are self-explanatory especially if you click them.

[Big Fo]

Is there a way to sort free agents by overall rating and potential rating?

[Tim Tellean]

Yup did that and nothing happens it is greyed out color.

What date are you on?

[Tim Tellean]

I agree. I would not know this wasn't the demo from DDSPB 1 to be honest. The demo at least is underwhelmin. I played the heck out of DDSPB and the DDSCB and still I have to look around to figure what I got to do next.

I disagree with the underwhelming. Yes the game has essentially the same graphic look (Many enhancements also included, per user request) but the real good stuff is under the hood. I point you to Gary's long DDSPB 2 primer for examples.

[Comey]

I played it a bit. It's really tough to get into the pro game for me. I played the crap out of the college game. The pro game, like the NBA, is a lot tougher to get immersed in to me.

I'll keep trying though.

[Gary Gorski]

I agree. I would not know this wasn't the demo from DDSPB 1 to be honest. The demo at least is underwhelmin. I played the heck out of DDSPB and the DDSCB and still I have to look around to figure what I got to do next.

Seriously? Yeah the game looks the same but do you expect a graphical rewrite of the UI design every time?

Read this - MUST READ - DDS:PB2 Primer - Wolverine Studios (http://www.wolverinestudios.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11162) - it's four pages worth of document telling you why the game is lightyears beyond DDSPB1

[Gary Gorski]

First impressions...cluttered interface hurts my face...not very intuitive...lack of full screen is a biggie for me...no tool tips for icons at bottom...unsure I will spend more time on it or not.

What exactly do you consider cluttered and how does it "hurt your face"?

As for the bottom icons...an icon of a phone seemed pretty intuitive to me - same with the email icon. I can add tooltips easy enough but I just figured those things were self-explanatory. There are, you will notice, tool tips for the top icons.

[Gary Gorski]

And I posted this to a user on my forum so I figure I should post it here


Yes, the UI looks the same - it was very good so why redesign it? Instead the time was spent on things like oh I don't know...playable foreign leagues, expansion, restricted free agency, expanded contract options, player/media interaction, improved AI decision making, the ability to send draft picks overseas and a host of other things. In other words I made real improvements to the game instead of slapping a new coat of paint on it and a new roster file like most companies do with their sports games.

To be honest I'm a little frustrated by some of the comments on day one of a demo - all anyone says is they want depth and immersion and realism...so I go all out in providing NEW features and enhancements in those areas and what's the comment? Oh it looks the same so I don't think I will spend much more time with it. Like I said, if all it takes is a new coat of paint and a new roster file I'll be happy to oblige in the future - it would save me alot of time actually doing things to improve the game.

I would hope that if you are going to bother to take the time to try the demo that you actually take the time to look at the nuances and details...the things that make the game special and worth playing and not just "oh it looks the same as before"

[Comey]

Since this thread needs a positive, I will add that I like the addition of the separate text box for the in-game. Good decision with that.

[DaddyTorgo]

FWIW I think it was only one person complaining about the looks.

I haven't even read your 4 page primer, and I just spent a few minutes with the demo before rushing out to a movie (bout to sit down and give it a good run), but I'm liking what I see so far.

Don't get overly frustrated by one or two people.

Looking forward to seeing how personalities start to factor into things.

[DaddyTorgo]

I like the stats and the info on the home screen

[Bad-example]

FWIW, I haven't cared for the UI in any of the demos I have tried from this company. I don't find them to be intuitive at all. As I mentioned above, the lack of full screen is a biggie for me. Why force the user to play through a little window and waste the rest of the screen?

I uninstalled this one pretty quickly. Just not my cup of tea.

[Recoil]

I'm not a big fan of professional basketball, but I'll give this a try just because DDS:CB is one of my favorite sports sim.

[DaddyTorgo]

I can't move my guys around on the depth chart...no amount of clicking on guys and then places in the depth chart moves my #8 guy up to #6

*confusion* sure i'm just doing something dumb. bet i figure it out right after i post this.

Aaaah. Yep - it's cuz I hadn't fired Doc Rivers yet.

[DaddyTorgo]

FWIW, I haven't cared for the UI in any of the demos I have tried from this company. I don't find them to be intuitive at all. As I mentioned above, the lack of full screen is a biggie for me. Why force the user to play through a little window and waste the rest of the screen?

I uninstalled this one pretty quickly. Just not my cup of tea.

i get much more use out of games where i don't have to play it fullscreen...i need to multitask while i play

[Tim Tellean]

FWIW, I haven't cared for the UI in any of the demos I have tried from this company. I don't find them to be intuitive at all. As I mentioned above, the lack of full screen is a biggie for me. Why force the user to play through a little window and waste the rest of the screen?

I uninstalled this one pretty quickly. Just not my cup of tea.

What do you consider intuitive?

Why force the vast majority to play on anything outside 1024x768?
I expect you never did reach the on-court action?

[DaddyTorgo]

So I just got an email about an argument between two of my players and it says "action required" and I can't delete it, but what's the action required? There's no selectable buttons there that I can see, and i tried calling both the players and talking to them...

[Atocep]

FWIW, I haven't cared for the UI in any of the demos I have tried from this company. I don't find them to be intuitive at all. As I mentioned above, the lack of full screen is a biggie for me. Why force the user to play through a little window and waste the rest of the screen?

I uninstalled this one pretty quickly. Just not my cup of tea.

I'm the exact opposite. If a text sim were to force me to use fullscreen I'd be far less likely to play it. I don't see the point of a text sim using the entire screen.

The only complaint I would have so far is I kind of feel in the dark during free agency. I could very well be missing it, but I don't see any feedback as to why an offer isn't accepted.

[DaddyTorgo]

I'm the exact opposite. If a text sim were to force me to use fullscreen I'd be far less likely to play it. I don't see the point of a text sim using the entire screen.

The only complaint I would have so far is I kind of feel in the dark during free agency. I could very well be missing it, but I don't see any feedback as to why an offer isn't accepted.

there isn't any - i agree that kind of feedback might be nice, but given the number of FA's it also might be a bit cumbersome to display i suppose?

[Bad-example]

I'm the exact opposite. If a text sim were to force me to use fullscreen I'd be far less likely to play it.

I know there are a lot of people that feel the same as you. But why force the user into a choice? Is it that hard to offer both?

[Gary Gorski]

FWIW, I haven't cared for the UI in any of the demos I have tried from this company. I don't find them to be intuitive at all. As I mentioned above, the lack of full screen is a biggie for me. Why force the user to play through a little window and waste the rest of the screen?

I uninstalled this one pretty quickly. Just not my cup of tea.

I've asked once so I'll ask again - you keep saying "its not intuitive" - why? If you're a "want to play a spreadsheet guy" that's fine and if you want to not like the game that's fine too but all I ask is that if you're going to throw out an opinion/comment that I'd like you to explain it.

[Gary Gorski]

I know there are a lot of people that feel the same as you. But why force the user into a choice? Is it that hard to offer both?

In this case yes - all of the heavily detailed screens are designed in one size. For the future I'll consider removing some of that detail in order to offer a full screen mode but that kind of thing has to be a design decision from day one.

[Gary Gorski]

So I just got an email about an argument between two of my players and it says "action required" and I can't delete it, but what's the action required? There's no selectable buttons there that I can see, and i tried calling both the players and talking to them...

Yes that's what you can do in that instance - it just sets it as an "action required" email so that it will stop the sim, allow you to see the issue and decide if you want to pursue any action

[DaddyTorgo]

Yes that's what you can do in that instance - it just sets it as an "action required" email so that it will stop the sim, allow you to see the issue and decide if you want to pursue any action

gotcha. cool. wanted to be sure i wasn't missing anything, since apparently there was another argument the next day.

guess my undrafted FA PG is going to get his dumb ass cut. :D

[DaddyTorgo]

do fastbreak-style teams like the Suns run the floor and create odd-numbered situations?

i was never able to get that to really reflect well in the last version...seems like guys were never really able to shake their defenders are get free like that

[Bad-example]

I've asked once so I'll ask again - you keep saying "its not intuitive" - why? If you're a "want to play a spreadsheet guy" that's fine and if you want to not like the game that's fine too but all I ask is that if you're going to throw out an opinion/comment that I'd like you to explain it.

I didn't spend a lot of time before uninstalling but most of that time I was dazzled by all the icons and didn't have much of a clue what to do. I didn't get far beyond being confused and gave up. Maybe folding a lot of that busyness into drop down menus would help clean it up some.

[Tim Tellean]

I didn't spend a lot of time before uninstalling but most of that time I was dazzled by all the icons and didn't have much of a clue what to do. I didn't get far beyond being confused and gave up. Maybe folding a lot of that busyness into drop down menus would help clean it up some.

So the ringing phone (icon flashing) and flashing email button gave you no clue as too how to proceed?
I'm not sure how a bunch of drop downs, that people will complain about, could help the situation.
I get the feeling your root gripe is the no full-screen, which is not easy to implement but is something as I posted earlier we are looking at for DDSPF.

[Big Fo]

I think the conference previews are a nice touch. I'm enjoying this so far, just about to get started with the regular season.

edit to add: Just played my first handful of games with Orlando. Didn't make any trades, resigned J.J. Redick while letting Matt Barnes, Anthony Johnson and the other bench players leave. My rookies are in the D-League and I signed Chris Duhon and Luis Scola to bolster the team. So far Scola has been great, Dwight Howard finally has someone else who will do some work down in the paint. We went into New Jersey and easily beat the media darling Nets (with LeBron, Wade, and DeMarcus Cousins). Duhon just got in a pushing and shoving match with fellow PG Jameer Nelson, I guess part of that might be down to them fighting for minutes.

[whomario]

The foreign leagues don´t seem to be working at all, players from those leagues don´t apear in the drafts and you can´t sign them if they go undrafted (unless i´m missing it) :confused:

[lungs]

OK I am a bit of a dumb bell but my window looks all screwed up. I'm sure it's because of my settings but I'm also new to Windows 7 so I'm not sure how I exactly get things the way they're supposed to be.

Any help would be appreciated and I won't bitch about anything else :)

[CleBrownsfan]

Damn - I'm liking what I'm seeing in the demo. Been playing this morning for about a hour. BUT I can not see myself purchasing this because the lack of filling my 22" screen. I probably sit 3 feet from my monitor and I have to lean close to see what's going on in game. What a shame... maybe next year they will allow for a full screen.

[Icy]

Damn - I'm liking what I'm seeing in the demo. Been playing this morning for about a hour. BUT I can not see myself purchasing this because the lack of filling my 22" screen. I probably sit 3 feet from my monitor and I have to lean close to see what's going on in game. What a shame... maybe next year they will allow for a full screen.

I agree this could be a problem for people with big screens as i use a 24" myself too and 1920x1200 screen resolution for web design, but i guess that if the game was at 1200x960 then those minority with small or those wide with or standard screens would also complain.

The easy workaround is to change your screen resolution when you are going to play the game, it takes 1 minute or less and no reboot is needed if you are on windows XP, vista or 7 (right click on the desktop, click on screen resolution and there change it). The only minor issue is that if you have a desktop full of icons, their order could be messed up if they don't fit in the smaller screen resolution.

Maybe for the future as Tim and Gary said it could be looked at, and either to set the minimum requirements to be 1200x960 and to leave those with small screens without support, or to try a less graphical and more web style design that can be expanded to full screen like what FM or OOTP use, but i know also that a lot of people don't like that kind of designs or find them too simple.

It's so hard to make everybody happy, that is why my vision of the text sim and games developing in general point of view has changed a lot since i joined WS and saw from the inside how ungrateful is to be at the other side, specially in small/indy companies that are more a hobby than a job.

[Gary Gorski]

The foreign leagues don´t seem to be working at all, players from those leagues don´t apear in the drafts and you can´t sign them if they go undrafted (unless i´m missing it) :confused:

Well if they're not appearing in drafts how can they be going undrafted?

The foreign leagues are working - I may need to boost the desire of some players to declare for the draft but the foreign leagues are working.

[Tim Tellean]

I agree this could be a problem for people with big screens as i use a 24" myself too and 1920x1200 screen resolution for web design, but i guess that if the game was at 1200x960 then those minority with small or those wide with or standard screens would also complain.

The easy workaround is to change your screen resolution when you are going to play the game, it takes 1 minute or less and no reboot is needed if you are on windows XP, vista or 7 (right click on the desktop, click on screen resolution and there change it). The only minor issue is that if you have a desktop full of icons, their order could be messed up if they don't fit in the smaller screen resolution.

Maybe for the future as Tim and Gary said it could be looked at, and either to set the minimum requirements to be 1200x960 and to leave those with small screens without support, or to try a less graphical and more web style design that can be expanded to full screen like what FM or OOTP use, but i know also that a lot of people don't like that kind of designs or find them too simple.

It's so hard to make everybody happy, that is why my vision of the text sim and games developing in general point of view has changed a lot since i joined WS and saw from the inside how ungrateful is to be at the other side, specially in small/indy companies that are more a hobby than a job.

I want to piggyback on what Ivan said and as I posted previously in this thread, we are looking at this for future titles (DDSPF), but to include it in DDSPB 2 was problematic with the massive code rewrite necessary.

[Gary Gorski]

Damn - I'm liking what I'm seeing in the demo. Been playing this morning for about a hour. BUT I can not see myself purchasing this because the lack of filling my 22" screen. I probably sit 3 feet from my monitor and I have to lean close to see what's going on in game. What a shame... maybe next year they will allow for a full screen.

Ok can you explain this to me? OOTP runs in a mode that can either be in the window or fill the full screen, correct? But when you go to full screen doesn't it just basically take up the entire screen with the background? Isn't all the text and data the same size but with just alot more empty space? I guess I just don't see what the difference is other than having your entire screen filled up with a background.

Is there any text sim out there that actually makes the font sizes and icons and graphics larger (eg easier to see without having to lean in) when you go to a full screen?

I suppose I could create a version of the game that essentially forces your screen to change resolution so that it does take up all your screen. I'm not going to make that the norm because I'm sure a great many people don't want that done but I'm willing to look into doing it if that solves people's complaints about not being full screen.

Outside of that full screen to me would have the opportunity to show more data at once but the data shown is still going to be in the same font size and things like that so it would be the same "difficulty" in reading.

I guess I'm just looking for a reason why "full screen" is basically a dealbreaker when the game itself is really good

[CleBrownsfan]

OOTP fills my screen and I do not have to lean close to the screen to see what's going on.

After a long day of work/taking care of kids I want to be able to site back on my couch with my key board & mouse - which makes my monitor nearly 3 feet away from me.

[Gary Gorski]

OOTP fills my screen and I do not have to lean close to the screen to see what's going on.

Right but the data is not any larger/easier to see, correct? It is just spaced out over the entire screen so all you really are getting is more empty background space, right?

Like I said, I could probably force the res to change while the game is active so it would make it the full screen but in order to do what OOTP does would take a full rewrite of the UI - while thats possible for future games its not for this one.

[Bad-example]

I guess I'm just looking for a reason why "full screen" is basically a dealbreaker when the game itself is really good

What I want is an interface that uses, not just occupies, the whole screen. Being forced to play in a windowed mode is frustrating just like wearing blinders while driving would be.

[Icy]

What I want is an interface that uses, not just occupies, the whole screen. Being forced to play in a windowed mode is frustrating just like wearing blinders while driving would be.

But not any text sim does it, only FM or OOTP do at some extent as you can create a custom view for some screens to expand the stats columns in that given screen and the fonts etc are at the same size than default, so the problem of small fonts in big screens are still there as Gary said. In other games like FOF for example, you can have the game windows expand to full screen, but it's just the background what is expanded, not the information.

I think the only solution, and i think is what most of you are asking for but it's creating some confusion, is to be able to chose between windows at current size and full screen at same resolution but using the whole screen, not just resizing the current windows.

So the options would be:

a) Windowed at 1024x768
b) Full screen forcing the 1024x768 resolution like other PC games do.

Is that whay some of you are looking for? if so, can't you Gary add an option to play windowed for those who multitask or to chose to play on forced full screen mode?

[A-Husker-4-Life]

I like to say "Great Job Guys" the interface is sweet and playing in a window is how I always play PC games.. Full Screen is for the consoles :)

[SunDevil]

But not any text sim does it, only FM or OOTP do at some extent as you can create a custom view for some screens to expand the stats columns in that given screen and the fonts etc are at the same size than default, so the problem of small fonts in big screens are still there as Gary said. In other games like FOF for example, you can have the game windows expand to full screen, but it's just the background what is expanded, not the information.

I think the only solution, and i think is what most of you are asking for but it's creating some confusion, is to be able to chose between windows at current size and full screen at same resolution but using the whole screen, not just resizing the current windows.

So the options would be:

a) Windowed at 1024x768
b) Full screen forcing the 1024x768 resolution like other PC games do.

Is that whay some of you are looking for? if so, can't you Gary add an option to play windowed for those who multitask or to chose to play on forced full screen mode?

For me personally that is not what I would be looking for. Both OOTP 11 and FM 2010 can either be windowed or full screen. But you can also have adjustable screen size as well. I play both games in a window, but that window is in the 1680x1050 range. To play a game in a window with a maximum size of 1024x768 is something that should not be a default hard coded single option.

I just reset my OOTP game to the 1024x768 resolution just to see how small it is compared to my usual resolution and there is no way I would want to continue to play OOTP at this new smaller resolution.

So Icy I would not want either of your options. I would want a window/full screen option with adjustable resolution up to 2560x1600. This is 2010 going on to 2011, there should be no reason whatsoever that in offering a product to this gaming audience(aka FOFC) that max resolution is 1024x768.

Just my opinion. Good luck with your game.

[Big Fo]

Are demo saved games compatible with the full version?

[Icy]

For me personally that is not what I would be looking for. Both OOTP 11 and FM 2010 can either be windowed or full screen. But you can also have adjustable screen size as well. I play both games in a window, but that window is in the 1680x1050 range. To play a game in a window with a maximum size of 1024x768 is something that should not be a default hard coded single option.

I just reset my OOTP game to the 1024x768 resolution just to see how small it is compared to my usual resolution and there is no way I would want to continue to play OOTP at this new smaller resolution.

So Icy I would not want either of your options. I would want a window/full screen option with adjustable resolution up to 2560x1600. This is 2010 going on to 2011, there should be no reason whatsoever that in offering a product to this gaming audience(aka FOFC) that max resolution is 1024x768.

Just my opinion. Good luck with your game.

We are going offtopic but in FM or OOTP you are right that you can resize the windows to any size but the font size and the information in the screen is always the same, just more spaced to fit the whole windows, so you are just seeing more background with the bigger windows, but you are not changing the resolution or font size at all when you make the windows larger, and that is what Gary was pointing out.

[Icy]

However the last DDSPB was set up to cover the whole screen resizing is the way it should be. I have no idea why the game is not configured that way.

Are you sure? can you please double check as i haven't DDSPB installed in my pc.

I'm pretty sure that not any text sim ever from WS or even old GDS or 400ss has ever resized when changing the windows size, in fact you could not change the windows size to start with, as the graphics have always been set as backgrounds images for 1024x768 and couldn't be expanded.

It's the same as the new FBCB from GDS, that has a set size (1024x768 too) and can't be resized for exactly the same reason, using graphics as 1024x768 background.

The only text sims i have ever seen able to be resized are OOTP (post 6.5) and FM (i'm talking about windowed mode, not full screen), and both just resize the windows but not changing the font size or any graphics size, just expanding the windows and spreading the stuff inside to occupy the whole windows but not expanding it's size but having more space in between. OOTP 6.5 and earlier copies couldn't be resized either, it all started when Markus joined SI and started to use their interface libraries, and that is why OOTP and FM are the only games capable of doing it, and i insist, you can only make the windows bigger and spread the things inside to occupy all the windows leaving more space in between (unless you set custom views with more data).

FOF can also be resized but again the menus, text etc are exactly of the same size, and in this case not even spread, just the background is bigger, so the only use is to hide your desktop behind the game, but not to be able to see game bigger or better.

And btw, i'm now arguing about the fact that not any current sim besides OOTP/FM being able to be resized when windowed, not if it would be better to have DDSPB2 or future WS games to have a higher resolution as i fully agree with that as a big monitor user myself too.

[SunDevil]

We are going offtopic but in FM or OOTP you are right that you can resize the windows to any size but the font size and the information in the screen is always the same, just more spaced to fit the whole windows, so you are just seeing more background with the bigger windows, but you are not changing the resolution or font size at all when you make the windows larger, and that is what Gary was pointing out.

You are wrong for OOTP 11. Based on the screen size you see different information. One of many examples I saw when doing this comparison in the earlier post, when you lower the screen size, the stats on the league standings screen show less information. Increase the screen size, and the list of players by rank and also what stat columns get displayed increases.

In the end for me, the screen size at 1024x768 is too small for a window, and I do not play games in full screen mode.

Icy, I am sure that you and the rest of the development worked really hard on this game and wish the team the best of luck.

[Icy]

You are wrong for OOTP 11. Based on the screen size you see different information. One of many examples I saw when doing this comparison in the earlier post, when you lower the screen size, the stats on the league standings screen show less information. Increase the screen size, and the list of players by rank and also what stat columns get displayed increases.

In the end for me, the screen size at 1024x768 is too small for a window, and I do not play games in full screen mode.

Icy, I am sure that you and the rest of the development worked really hard on this game and wish the team the best of luck.

Ok thanks, i stand (partially :) ) corrected about OOTP, i knew you could have more info in a bigger windows with custom views (that i always use) but not as default, but you still only see more info in some screens, take a look and you will see that other screens with less stats are just spread but the graphics do not change size. It still proves my point that the font size or graphics size are the same, so your eyes will be strained the same and it was the problem that a few were talking about.

And again only OOTP and FM, that share the same interface libraries, can do that, not any other text sim do and not any text sim auto resizes the font or graphics when the windows is maximized.

So if the problem is with seeing things too small in the screen with current high resolutions that most of us use, the only way to solve it would be adding a full screen mode forcing the 1024 resolution or designing static graphics and using bigger fonts for a higher resolution, that would leave those that still use 1024 without support (i wonder if there are many of those).

[Tim Tellean]

You are wrong for OOTP 11. Based on the screen size you see different information. One of many examples I saw when doing this comparison in the earlier post, when you lower the screen size, the stats on the league standings screen show less information. Increase the screen size, and the list of players by rank and also what stat columns get displayed increases.

In the end for me, the screen size at 1024x768 is too small for a window, and I do not play games in full screen mode.

Icy, I am sure that you and the rest of the development worked really hard on this game and wish the team the best of luck.

The on-court display in DDSPB2 occupies two windows. If you look at the on-court in 1024x768 you will not see PBP and stats unless you click the Recap button at the top of the screen and then the Recap lays over half the court, if your display is larger than 1024x768 you will see the recap as a second movable window.

[Tim Tellean]

However the last DDSPB was set up to cover the whole screen resizing is the way it should be. I have no idea why the game is not configured that way.

Actually it did not resize.

[Tim Tellean]

Thanks...........I can't remember but was the entire game screen only 6x8 inches as now? I don't remember that?

Not sure about 6x8 but I know its always been (Since TPB '05) 1024x768.

[DaddyTorgo]

eh - i don't think it's bothering that many people TBH

[Gary Gorski]

Ok so basically what people are saying is that you're going to pass on a great game that has improved by leaps and bounds and has features that everyone asks for in the next text sims because the window is 1024x768 but if that window would expand to cover your entire screen - even though no more data would be shown or be shown any bigger as is the case with most of the other text sims that you as a community rave about then you'd be interested?

Perhaps its my frustration that more than a year's worth of work went into the game to not just update it - no - to completely revamp it with a ton of cool new features. Everyone says they love FM so much and why can't other games be like FM and yet I take the time to build in a foundation to move in that direction with some of the player and media interaction and is that what we're talking about? No, nobody gives a damn about that because the screen is "too small" or they can't figure out what an icon does (even though there is a MASSIVE help file with the game).

Go ahead, bring out the "well that's not a professional response" posts. I don't really care - I've tried like hell to build a relationship with this community. I've listened to comments, read what you've critiqued in my games and others and even gone out of my way to highlight things that should be of interest (such as the 4 page document I posted that I'm sure very few read) - I've always owned the things that were done poorly or mistakes that I had made but here's a brand new game with a ton of updates and the only feedback basically has been two pages of bitching about screen size and that the UI (which has always been very sharp looking and graphic intensive so that you had something pleasing to look at) looks the same.

To me that just seems like some people are looking for a reason not to like the game. You've seen what's happened to this genre over the past few years. This is my first release in a couple of years. Shaun put in a TON of work on PureSim and not many people have given it a chance. Where's the new versions of FOF, TCY, BBPF, BBCF? Jump Shot Basketball - dead. FBB - dead. FBCB only brought back recently after a LONG hiatus. You've got SI, Markus and Mogul because they have enough people who buy the game every year to support them regardless. I would think that if you love these games as much as you say you do that your approach would be finding the things to love about a game like this and then overlooking the things that aren't game killing issues like crashes and logic that lets players score 120 points a game. The screen doesn't fill your desktop - ok, not your preference and duly noted for future games - but really? That's the reason not to play the game? It's not like you need a microscope to see the game window or something. And yes, it matters because one person not liking a menu in a demo of Madden and refusing to buy it means squat to EA - one person refusing to buy and support a game they even admit they like because of screen size matters a ton to someone like me. I've always tried to offer great customer support because when you get as relatively few sales as my games do every single customer matters a ton.

To be honest I'm frustrated and disappointed - I had always thought that this was a community of gamers that really looked into the depths of the game. That it was the nuances and details of a game that really made it great - that the game could be a glorified spreadsheet and they wouldn't care because it was so damn compelling and interesting that they didn't care. I had hoped for a couple pages of pointing out both the good and innovative with the game and the areas that could still use some improving to help get it to the next level and instead the only thing anyone cares about is how much space it takes up on their screen.

For those of you who have posted positive comments in the thread or are enjoying the demo I apologize for the above - the comments are not directed at you - and I thank you and I hope you will purchase the game tomorrow when it hits the webstore. I also hope that you will come and post those thoughts on the WS forums where we can actually discuss the merits of the game itself. The game is what it is - its a fantastic game in a fixed window size and there's nothing I can do about that. If that means you want one less sports sim of an already dwindling number at your disposal then so be it. Nobody outside of SI, Markus and Mogul are making a living doing this and the developers that are still actively producing games are putting tons of effort into really good games - it just doesn't make sense to me that anyone would like a game and choose not to support it for something like size of the game window. That's certainly your choice and you're welcomed to it but the more reasons people look for to not support games in this genre will only lead to fewer of these games being made. I'm not suggesting that you need to buy every text sim - if the game is buggy, plays poorly, gives you terribly unrealistic results then no but those aren't the gripes here. I'm just disappointed that so many seem to be so willing to dismiss the game over something like screen size.

Anyhow, again to the people who are actually giving the game consideration, thank you and I hope to see you in our forums to discuss both what you like about the game and what I can do to make it even better for you to play.

[DaddyTorgo]

It's pissing me off that this thread seems to have devolved into that is all Galaril.

And I get that it was in some part due to people trying to engage with you constructively around the issue, but the bottom line is that you and others haven't disengaged and made space for people who want to make positive comments about the game, but instead you've turned this into 2 pages of complaining about the damn screen size because you all like to sit 19 feet away from your monitors and have screen resolutions that are like 4000 by 4000 or something ridiculous.

And you see in the post above the end result of that - you've taken a guy who is one of the few developers still out there producing games of this genre and frustrated him and caused him to think that nobody appreciates his work, and made him think that this community is a POS, instead of the good place that it is.

Seriously...I get it...you all wish the game supported different resolutions. But how about balancing that criticism with some positive impressions instead of just endlessly harping on the same damn point.

Look - if Gary was Clay and produced an unrealistic game that produced wonky stats or something...if the core mechanics of the game were poor or produced unrealistic results, I'd be all behind saying "meh...game's not that great."

But that's not the fucking case at all. The only complaint that has been raised to date is UI-related. That's not even frigging gameplay related.

FOF has a UI straight out of like...the 1980's and yet everyone still gushes over it. Since when did we all become so fucking picky about UI that we let it obscure a statistically solid and enjoyable game hmm??

What have we turned into frigging faggoty joystick-jockies??

For fuck's sake. And yes...this is seriously pissing me off.

[Groundhog]

Co-signed.

[molson]

Ya, I have to agree with all that DT.

And I thought the whole point of a giant monitor was that you can have a bunch of applications running on various parts of the screen (and for movies, and graphics-intensive games, perhaps).

[DaddyTorgo]

How bout we all hunker down with the demo and comment on actual gameplay pros & cons hmm?

[DaddyTorgo]

I still want to see if I can get a fast-breaking team to run fast-break style and actually create odd-numbered situations on the offensive end of the floor...

[Atocep]

This thread is embarrassing.

I don't blame Gary one bit for being frustrated and a thread like this is the last think I would have expected to see on FOFC. This is a place that's been really good to people that create a solid product while at the same being harsh on people that push out substandard games and treat the community like shit.

[Neon_Chaos]

Haven't all Wolverine Studios games had fixed screen size ever since before?

I'm quite surprised that someone's complaining about it now. :)

That said, I'll purchase once I have the dough. DDS:PB and DDS:CB got a ton of play from me.

[Big Fo]

I'm up early as hell to watch the final day of the Ryder Cup. When does the game go on sale?

Having a new game to play will ease the pain of us getting slapped around by the Euros :(

[TroyF]

I'm not angry, just stunned. The game itself is rock solid. I can't believe someone won't buy a game because of screen resolution. The screen res issue is settled. Lets talk about the game now.

FWIW: Gary and I have had some long email strings about FM and how to incorporate aspects of it into the basketball game. This is a guy who cares about the product he puts out and wants to make it great.

[Bad-example]

I'm sorry I complained about the interface in the first place. I sure didn't mean to turn this into a bitchfest. If the game didn't look like potentially a lot of fun, I wouldn't have posted at all. I'm a difficult customer to please and that is why I don't often buy games in the genre.

[DaddyTorgo]

I'm sorry I complained about the interface in the first place. I sure didn't mean to turn this into a bitchfest. If the game didn't look like potentially a lot of fun, I wouldn't have posted at all. I'm a difficult customer to please and that is why I don't often buy games in the genre.

I didn't mean to jump down anybody's throat - posting a comment about it is fine obviously ...it just seemed like this thread got wayyyy off topic and I wanted to try to bring it back to a positive place.

As Troy and Atocep have said - this has always been a positive community where we reward guys who put out solid games and have great customer service, and it seems like we're just ripping into one of those guys here (one of the few left) who has put out a solid game with a raft of improvements based pretty much entirely on the feedback he got from customers of the first game. In other words, an ideal developer.

[DaddyTorgo]

I'm not angry, just stunned. The game itself is rock solid. I can't believe someone won't buy a game because of screen resolution. The screen res issue is settled. Lets talk about the game now.

FWIW: Gary and I have had some long email strings about FM and how to incorporate aspects of it into the basketball game. This is a guy who cares about the product he puts out and wants to make it great.

That's for sure. And the interactions that are in there now - as far as I can tell in a half-season, are a strong first step.

Which isn't to say there's not room for improvement (because hell...there always is), but it will definitely make the game more immersive.

Even in my half season last night as the Celtics I had Rondo and Perkins at each other's throats. WTF am I going to do about that? Trade Perkins? Then I'm left with nobody at Center. So I've got to ride it out and hope they mend fences.

One thing I'm curious about - are the player personalities for real players hardcoded, or randomized Gary?

And a question that got buried up above maybe: I always want to play a fun style of basketball that i'd enjoy watching (up-tempo, suns-style). Can this be replicated in the game? I know I found in DDSPB1 that it seemed almost impossible to get those sort of odd-man rushes or scrambling defenses...defenders always seemed to stick close to their guys. Has this changed at all?

[Ben E Lou]

On the one hand, Gary's right: the screen resolution complaints are frivolous at best, red herrings at worst.

On the other, developers need to, ahem, *develop* thicker skins. Less than 1% of FOFC's regular users--less than 5% of the people who have read this particular thread, even--are complaining about the resolution, yet he feels the need to post a 7-paragraph epistle that characterizes the entire forum by this.

I'm not singling Gary out in that. It's just the latest example. I'm in communication with several game developers, and it's absolutely stunning to me how they say/think "everyone at FOFC hates this about my game." It isn't isolated. It's on a regular basis. It completely amazes me that these guys even pay attention to the vocal small minorities. But it's worse than that: they don't just pay attention to them: they let them get to them.

I really don't get it.

[whomario]

@ DT : As far as i can tell it isn´t able to actually see that with the 2D engine. It definitely is there, i.e. the strategy options make a difference, but the in-game interface in the DDSPB titles is more or less a visual aid and as far as i can tell not an actual game-engine like in FM. Think about it, the enginge uses rectal-shaped objects occupying like 5% of the court each, how can you make that reresent scrambling defense or proper fastbreaks ?
It´s not criticism either as i see it as merely a cosmetical thing as long as the underlying sim engine is solid (and it is), the only reason FM can do what they do as that they are just much bigger and have used it much longer. Also, football/soccer is much less stat driven than Basketball (there´s still almost zero stats about games , it is more important to show what´s exactly and actually happening on the field than it is with Basketball. In my opinion at least.


Hope that makes sense ?

It´s one of the reasons why i basically never use it, i sim 99% of my games and i´m not unhappy with that at all.

There isn´t a text-only option, is there ? (no 2D, just text-event and possibility to adjust tactics and substitutions)

[DaddyTorgo]

As far as i can tell it isn´t able to actually see that with the 2D engine. It definitely is there, i.e. the strategy options make a difference, but the in-game interface in the DDSPB titles is more or less a visual aid and as far as i can tell not an actual game-engine like in FM.

Hope that makes sense ?

It´s one of the reasons why i basically never use it, i sim 99% of my games and i´m not unhappy with that at all.

There isn´t a text-only option, is there ? (no 2D, just text-event and possibility to adjust tactics and substitutions)

You mean as far as seeing fast breaks and such?

Gotcha.

[Gary Gorski]

On the one hand, Gary's right: the screen resolution complaints are frivolous at best, red herrings at worst.

On the other, developers need to, ahem, *develop* thicker skins. Less than 1% of FOFC's regular users--less than 5% of the people who have read this particular thread, even--are complaining about the resolution, yet he feels the need to post a 7-paragraph epistle that characterizes the entire forum by this.

I'm not singling Gary out in that. It's just the latest example. I'm in communication with several game developers, and it's absolutely stunning to me how they say/think "everyone at FOFC hates this about my game." It isn't isolated. It's on a regular basis. It completely amazes me that these guys even pay attention to the vocal small minorities. But it's worse than that: they don't just pay attention to them: they let them get to them.

I really don't get it.

Ben posted! WOOT!

Anyhow I'll start here - this isn't an issue about being "thick skinned". Some members of this forum have taken me to task in the past about releases that were buggy or whatnot and with 100% accuracy in their statements and I certainly owned up to that. I never accused FOFC of picking on my games or anything like that. In fact each time I released a game I would wait to see what the response here would be - I've tried to incorporate user feedback and even as Troy pointed out carry on discussions with individual members in an attempt to figure out what it is that causes the vocal majority at FOFC to gush over a game like FM or FOF. I know basketball isn't the favorite sport of people on a football game forum but soccer isn't either and the love for FM is what inspired me to hope that maybe people could get behind a basketball sim that tries to offer a similar experience.

As I said, I've always looked at this place as a group of "intelligent" gamers - a group that didn't care if the game looked like it rolled off the Commodore 64 so long as it had the guts of a truly remarkable game. That's WHY the comments in this thread bothered me so much. It wasn't anyone pointing out things they didn't like with the demo or things that didn't work. It was people saying its a GREAT game but they're not going to support it or even try it because of screen size. To me that was the ultimate WTF moment because of ALL places I NEVER would have expected that here. I would expect to be ripped and hung out to dry if all my game consisted of was a beer tent and the ability to change uniform colors but it doesn't. The game has been developed over the course of 7 years and its developed into a damn good game whether you like the sport of basketball or not.

I do pay attention to the vocal minority because every single person matters to me. I don't have the luxury of doing tens of thousands of sales or even thousands of sales so if someone does make a comment on the game I try to remember and incorporate it in the future so that they will become a customer later on. There's going to be some people that just look for an excuse not to like something and I can accept that but that doesn't mean I'm not going to listen and not going to try and do something about it in case that person really would give the game a chance either now or in the future.

And once more, I know that it was just a handful of people doing most of the griping about the screen size in this thread - I am very appreciative of the people who have posted comments and that's why I'm here. I've never even complained if the comments are negative, so long as they are fair and based on fact. The negatives are just opportunities to do something better with the game. I just want feedback period. I want to be able to discuss the good things and work on fixing the not so good. I'm just trying to make a game that the majority of this community can get excited about and eventually put up their on their must play list like a FM or OOTP. If I thought this community was full of people who couldn't appreciate a good game for being a good game I wouldn't have gave a damn in the first place.

[Gary Gorski]

I'm up early as hell to watch the final day of the Ryder Cup. When does the game go on sale?

Having a new game to play will ease the pain of us getting slapped around by the Euros :(

Game will be released sometime this evening - probably 8ish EST when I get home from work and can compile the final build. I was fixing a couple things from the demo yesterday that I wanted right in the 1.0 official release.

[Gary Gorski]

That's for sure. And the interactions that are in there now - as far as I can tell in a half-season, are a strong first step.

Which isn't to say there's not room for improvement (because hell...there always is), but it will definitely make the game more immersive.

Even in my half season last night as the Celtics I had Rondo and Perkins at each other's throats. WTF am I going to do about that? Trade Perkins? Then I'm left with nobody at Center. So I've got to ride it out and hope they mend fences.

One thing I'm curious about - are the player personalities for real players hardcoded, or randomized Gary?

And a question that got buried up above maybe: I always want to play a fun style of basketball that i'd enjoy watching (up-tempo, suns-style). Can this be replicated in the game? I know I found in DDSPB1 that it seemed almost impossible to get those sort of odd-man rushes or scrambling defenses...defenders always seemed to stick close to their guys. Has this changed at all?

I bolded your response because THAT is why I'm here. I 100% admit that there can always be improvements and if we can get some constructive talk going about both the good and the bad then I can and will make those improvements and I can make them now.

Player personalities are hard coded in the file (in terms of the tendency to be an overall good guy or not) but the relationships are randomized every game so in your next league Rondo and Perkins might be best friends. You can also try to call either one or both and see if they'll change their personality as a method of trying to work this out. Of course it might just piss the guy off that you're asking him to change instead of the other guy but its an option.

The 2D really hasn't changed much but I've got a guy who wants to help me out and he's going to see if he can do something with the 2D to make it more fluent and give more options for this kind of stuff. The engine recognizes what you want to do with pace and tempo but the 2D isn't there yet. Not to say it won't be or can't be - I'd love to see it improved myself but so far I've spent the work "under the hood".

[Gary Gorski]

There isn´t a text-only option, is there ? (no 2D, just text-event and possibility to adjust tactics and substitutions)

You mean kind of like an ESPN Gamecast sort of thing?

It doesn't exist now but I've thought of that kind of thing before - just didn't want to spend the time doing it if nobody would use it but it could be possible. I could essentially take what the 2D does, put it on a smaller screen and just ignore the movements so it might not be a ton of work if there's an interest in this.

[DaddyTorgo]

I bolded your response because THAT is why I'm here. I 100% admit that there can always be improvements and if we can get some constructive talk going about both the good and the bad then I can and will make those improvements and I can make them now.

Player personalities are hard coded in the file (in terms of the tendency to be an overall good guy or not) but the relationships are randomized every game so in your next league Rondo and Perkins might be best friends. You can also try to call either one or both and see if they'll change their personality as a method of trying to work this out. Of course it might just piss the guy off that you're asking him to change instead of the other guy but its an option.

The 2D really hasn't changed much but I've got a guy who wants to help me out and he's going to see if he can do something with the 2D to make it more fluent and give more options for this kind of stuff. The engine recognizes what you want to do with pace and tempo but the 2D isn't there yet. Not to say it won't be or can't be - I'd love to see it improved myself but so far I've spent the work "under the hood".

Sounds cool! And it's good to know that at least the engine recognizes what i want to do with pace and tempo (i would assume so of course, but nice to have that confirmation).

Yeah - I tried telling Perkins to chill the fuck out (apparently it was him who was being a hothead) but he was being an asshole. Had the demo not stopped I probably would have had to deal him :D.

[DaddyTorgo]

You mean kind of like an ESPN Gamecast sort of thing?

It doesn't exist now but I've thought of that kind of thing before - just didn't want to spend the time doing it if nobody would use it but it could be possible. I could essentially take what the 2D does, put it on a smaller screen and just ignore the movements so it might not be a ton of work if there's an interest in this.

Couldn't one just ignore the 2d view (bury the window behind something) and get essentially the same effect?

[Gary Gorski]

Couldn't one just ignore the 2d view (bury the window behind something) and get essentially the same effect?

Well the game could probably move a little quicker if it isn't actually processing the 2D movement plus the screen could be redesigned to be more useful to that sort of thing by shrinking the court way down and essentially making it operate just like Gamecast

[DaddyTorgo]

Aaaah.

*nods*

LOL - I find the game moves plenty fast enough in 2d through a game. Yikes!

[Gary Gorski]

BTW - the last comment I will make regarding the screen size issue. Despite there being nothing I can do about it for DDSPB2 - I really hope that you will support the game still if you enjoy it. I promise I will put the screen size issue on the radar for future versions of all my games - I'm not telling you "this is how I do it so screw you". All I'm saying is this is how it was done, it can be done differently in the future but I hope you can still consider supporting a really good game this time and then next time have your desires for screen size issues met.

[whomario]

I could essentially take what the 2D does, put it on a smaller screen and just ignore the movements so it might not be a ton of work if there's an interest in this.

Yeah, basically :)

[Gary Gorski]

Yeah, basically :)

I'll give it a look and see what I can do with it. Might not be something I could do right away but give me some time and I will see if I can work up something useful

[whomario]

I'll give it a look and see what I can do with it. Might not be something I could do right away but give me some time and I will see if I can work up something useful

appreciated :) Maybe have a look at the FBCB2 demo. I don´t know why it is, but despite very limited text that play-by-play really "gets me".

Overall, a little more descriptive text would be highly appreciated in that case obviously ;)

And long term a good-looking gamecast type screen would be pretty neat as well.

But as said, right now i´m perfectly fine simming full games as i´m really enjoying the game as a long-term sim and often sim weeks at a time and generally breeze through the seasons and can get multiple seasons done over a weekend.

[Tim Tellean]

appreciated :) Maybe have a look at the FBCB2 demo. I don´t know why it is, but despite very limited text that play-by-play really "gets me".

Overall, a little more descriptive text would be highly appreciated in that case obviously ;)

And long term a good-looking gamecast type screen would be pretty neat as well.

But as said, right now i´m perfectly fine simming full games as i´m really enjoying the game as a long-term sim and often sim weeks at a time and generally breeze through the seasons and can get multiple seasons done over a weekend.

I know you said you're having issues with the 2d but I thought I would offer that the PbP is running in a second box called game recap, with all the stats updated constantly.
If you run at larger than 1024x768 you should see the window/box to the right of your on-court. Thought it can't hurt.

[Capital]

It was a busy weekend and Monday and didn't get a chance to check in on the new DDSPB2 demo. Wanted to see how things are progressing and then saw this thread...wow. It did make for interesting reading.

Anyway, I have purchased almost a half dozen games from Wolverine (2 pro and 2 college games) and will likely purchase this game as well. From everything I have seen thus far, the basketball statistical engine and numerous GM options appear strong - that's what I am looking for in my text based games. I travel a decent amount and these quality text based sports games is what I'm looking for - something quick and fun to play in a hotel room.

I did read the 4 page promo on WS and there looks like a ton of new features. I probably would have bought the game for expansion and a save on the sub matrix alone. There's a lot of other features and I'm sure tweaks that wouldn't be in a write-up.

Anyway, I'm just glad there's a new text based sports game to play. I like OOTP but spend too much time setting up a new game. They have streamlined the start, but the default has way too many levels of minors for my liking. I deleted a couple of minor leagues (split season) then expanded the league and just couldn't get things to work correctly. Gave up after the 3rd attempt when a league completely crashed everytime on the same day. maybe I'll try again next year, maybe I won't - don't know. (BTW - the sim/standings screen in OOTP listed 3 league leaders per stat category in higher res on my large widescreen monitor and only 2 leaders in the 1024 res laptop).

Gary, looking forward to playing this game later in the week - right in time for basketball season.

[Capital]

Also, loved the Beta Dynasty - it helped to pique my interest in the game.

[Sweed]

FWIW I made the jump from Total Pro Basketball 2005 to DDSPB2 so some things may be new to me but not others.

The design of the player card is top notch stuff. Having all of the player information in one view rather than having to go to different tabs is a huge thing to me. IMHO, this feature alone would almost make it worth purchasing as an upgrade to the old TPB.

Player interaction IE fighting, friends, comments in the news, etc is a great addition. Only 20 games into my Laker dynasty but Blake and Bynum are having some issues.

Right now I am only being GM and simulating games and checking boxscores. So I haven't watched any games to comment on how an actual game flows but the stats I'm getting from the boxscores are great.

My one suggestion so far is from playing as a GM only standpoint. In my Laker game Phil is starting Odom and bringing Artest off the bench. Fair enough and something a real coach might want to do. The problem is this puts Artest out on the floor as "the man\scorer" with the second unit. Odom's stats tend to suffer a bit from this as he takes less shots while playing with Kobe and Pau on the floor with him.

So Gary..
I would suggest (and wonder if it would be possible) to be able to suggest to the coach to take a guy out of the lineup and make him the 6th man along with suggesting who might start in his place? This would be kind of like now when asking a player to work on one thing at the expense of another.

Something like..

Head Coach: "Ok Mr. GM you wanted to talk about Artest? What did you want to discuss?"

>playing time
>playing style
>role or position in depth chart (or whatever you may want to call it)
>his attitude
>never mind

Select the "role" option you could have something like
>I'd like to see Artest start at SF
(along with the options to start at any of the 5 positions)

If coach agrees it would be a simple switch of the current SF (in my case Odom) and the player you want to start (Artest).

I'm sure this could get pretty complex.
Should you as a GM even make the suggestion?

How do you, the programmer, make it stick?

How long would it stick?

Under what circumstances would your coach agree to make the change?
I would suggest if players are nearly equal there is at least a chance of making the change. In my case Artest is 2.5 balls while Odom is 3.0 so maybe it could be considered. Maybe the coach could look at the starting lineup scorers compared to the second unit and make the move if "he" could "see" that it gave him better balanced scorers with each unit?

Maybe its too hard to do but thought I'd throw it out there for you to consider.

[Groundhog]

Also, loved the Beta Dynasty - it helped to pique my interest in the game.

Yup. That was the biggest factor in me buying the game really. DDS:PB2 was on my radar as only the faintest of blips prior to reading through that.

[Gary Gorski]

FWIW I made the jump from Total Pro Basketball 2005 to DDSPB2 so some things may be new to me but not others.

The design of the player card is top notch stuff. Having all of the player information in one view rather than having to go to different tabs is a huge thing to me. IMHO, this feature alone would almost make it worth purchasing as an upgrade to the old TPB.

Player interaction IE fighting, friends, comments in the news, etc is a great addition. Only 20 games into my Laker dynasty but Blake and Bynum are having some issues.

Right now I am only being GM and simulating games and checking boxscores. So I haven't watched any games to comment on how an actual game flows but the stats I'm getting from the boxscores are great.

My one suggestion so far is from playing as a GM only standpoint. In my Laker game Phil is starting Odom and bringing Artest off the bench. Fair enough and something a real coach might want to do. The problem is this puts Artest out on the floor as "the man\scorer" with the second unit. Odom's stats tend to suffer a bit from this as he takes less shots while playing with Kobe and Pau on the floor with him.

So Gary..
I would suggest (and wonder if it would be possible) to be able to suggest to the coach to take a guy out of the lineup and make him the 6th man along with suggesting who might start in his place? This would be kind of like now when asking a player to work on one thing at the expense of another.

Something like..

Head Coach: "Ok Mr. GM you wanted to talk about Artest? What did you want to discuss?"

>playing time
>playing style
>role or position in depth chart (or whatever you may want to call it)
>his attitude
>never mind

Select the "role" option you could have something like
>I'd like to see Artest start at SF

If coach agrees it would be a simple switch of the current SF (in my case Odom) and the player you want to start (Artest).

I'm sure this could get pretty complex.
Should you as a GM even make the suggestion?

How do you, the programmer, make it stick?

How long would it stick?

Under what circumstances would your coach agree to make the change?
I would suggest if players are nearly equal there is at least a chance of making the change. In my case Artest is 2.5 balls while Odom is 3.0 so maybe it could be considered. Maybe the coach could look at the starting lineup scorers compared to the second unit and make the move if "he" could "see" that it gave him better balanced scorers with each unit?

Maybe its too hard to do but thought I'd throw it out there for you to consider.

Well the game has a module already for suggesting things to the head coach - I can certainly take a look and see about making this one of the topics you can discuss with him.

[whomario]

agree with that definitely !

I tend to "cheat" a bit there and go into the DB (export ---> acesss ---> import) and change the players potential positions.

That´s another pet peeve : The game is way to generous assigning a player multiple legit positions. Very many guys are assigned 3 positions to play, this becomes especially annoying when you have decently creative SFs starting at Point Guard. He might be the best option there as per the ratings but still it just feels weird to see a guy average 15 points and 5-6 assists and 4 Turnovers out of postion rather than a backup PG that might get only 9-10 PPG but propably 5-6 APG with 2 TPG.

It definitely isn´t as noticeable as in DDSPB1 but still there.

Similarly there´s still too many 6´11, 270 pound guys playing small Forward.

Both hold true with game-created players as well.


What i absolutely love is the AI now having 6th men and not allways starting the 5 best (by star rating) players

[Sweed]

Well the game has a module already for suggesting things to the head coach - I can certainly take a look and see about making this one of the topics you can discuss with him.

Yep, been using the call mode already. I wasn't sure though how touchy the lineup AI might be or if something like this might cause issues. Just thought I'd throw it out there for you to wrap your coder's mind around. If you came backs and said "no way to complex" I'd understand. Certainly wouldn't be a game breaker, but if one doesn't ask one doesn't know.

If it could be done it would be a nice addition, even if Phil tells me to mind my own business and get back to the office.:D

Thanks.

[Gary Gorski]

agree with that definitely !

I tend to "cheat" a bit there and go into the DB (export ---> acesss ---> import) and change the players potential positions.

That´s another pet peeve : The game is way to generous assigning a player multiple legit positions. Very many guys are assigned 3 positions to play, this becomes especially annoying when you have decently creative SFs starting at Point Guard. He might be the best option there as per the ratings but still it just feels weird to see a guy average 15 points and 5-6 assists and 4 Turnovers out of postion rather than a backup PG that might get only 9-10 PPG but propably 5-6 APG with 2 TPG.

It definitely isn´t as noticeable as in DDSPB1 but still there.

Similarly there´s still too many 6´11, 270 pound guys playing small Forward.

Both hold true with game-created players as well.


What i absolutely love is the AI now having 6th men and not allways starting the 5 best (by star rating) players

I'm still tinkering with the game created players - that is something that is going to continue post-release for sure.

As for 6'11 -270 SF who is improperly listed? If you want my resource on deciding whether or not players are eligible for positions I use 82games.com

For example - Tyrus Thomas

Tyrus Thomas of the Charlotte Bobcats, NBA player stats (http://www.82games.com/0910/09CHA14.HTM#bypos)

He is listed as playing 7% of the PF minutes for CHAR last season and 5% of the C minutes so his primary pos is PF and is eligible to play C

[Gary Gorski]

Yep, been using the call mode already. I wasn't sure though how touchy the lineup AI might be or if something like this might cause issues. Just thought I'd throw it out there for you to wrap your coder's mind around. If you came backs and said "no way to complex" I'd understand. Certainly wouldn't be a game breaker, but if one doesn't ask one doesn't know.

If it could be done it would be a nice addition, even if Phil tells me to mind my own business and get back to the office.:D

Thanks.

The way it is built in Phil likely would tell you to mind your own business. The more accomplished coaches are less likely to take your suggestions (ie like if you tried to tell Phil, Larry Brown or the like what to do I'm pretty sure I could tell you what they would tell you that you could do with your suggestions)

[Sweed]

The way it is built in Phil likely would tell you to mind your own business. The more accomplished coaches are less likely to take your suggestions (ie like if you tried to tell Phil, Larry Brown or the like what to do I'm pretty sure I could tell you what they would tell you that you could do with your suggestions)

:D

[spleen1015]

Good luck with this Gary.

[whomario]

I'm still tinkering with the game created players - that is something that is going to continue post-release for sure.

As for 6'11 -270 SF who is improperly listed? If you want my resource on deciding whether or not players are eligible for positions I use 82games.com

For example - Tyrus Thomas

Tyrus Thomas of the Charlotte Bobcats, NBA player stats (http://www.82games.com/0910/09CHA14.HTM#bypos)

He is listed as playing 7% of the PF minutes for CHAR last season and 5% of the C minutes so his primary pos is PF and is eligible to play C

that´s why i specifically didn´t mention smaller guys playing Center, small ball and all ;) (Thomas will play plenty at Center for the Suns)

My issue is more with game-created players later on in a career, where the cpu will slot a clear-cut big man on the 3 spot at times, because a high amount of Big Men get that position enabled.
Similarly a lot of wing players get PG enabled.

In both cases, this just doesn´t happen all that often in the NBA. How many Swingmen have played PG fulltime for any longer period or a whole season during the last 5 years ? They are handling the ball a ton, but they don´t play at the 1.

[Gary Gorski]

My issue is more with game-created players later on in a career, where the cpu will slot a clear-cut big man on the 3 spot at times, because a high amount of Big Men get that position enabled.
Similarly a lot of wing players get PG enabled.

In both cases, this just doesn´t happen all that often in the NBA. How many Swingmen have played PG fulltime for any longer period or a whole season during the last 5 years ? They are handling the ball a ton, but they don´t play at the 1.

And as always I'm more than happy to tweak until its just right. Just give me some good data and feedback to go on and the game will improve even more than it has.

[Gary Gorski]

And for those interested - the game is now live!

Wolverine Studios Releases DDS: Pro Basketball 2 - Release Notes inside - Wolverine Studios (http://www.wolverinestudios.com/forum/showthread.php?p=79307#post79307)

[DeToxRox]

Have to check out the demo but despite the reviews for 2k11 I think I'm going for PB2 over 2k11.

[Gary Gorski]

Good luck with this Gary.

Thanks!

[Gary Gorski]

Have to check out the demo but despite the reviews for 2k11 I think I'm going for PB2 over 2k11.

YEAH!

[SlyBelle1]

It really is a shame that basketball is not really a sport that I follow too closely. I'm much more of a hockey and football fan. Even so, I downloaded the demo and for a basketball game, looks like it could be good. I think the features and UI look robust and will be great when it is applied to the future football game, and would be great if there was a future hockey version :)

Since I'm not a dedicated basketball fan, $39.95 is a little to steep for me right now on something I wouldn't likely play enough to get my money's worth. Maybe somewhere down the road I'll take the chance that I may actually enjoy basketball.

Again game looks good and I'm sure the basketball fans will love it and I wish you the best of luck, especially to keep text-sim sports alive!

Now time to start coding that football game :)

[Groundhog]

Congrats on another release Gary!

I picked up the early-access beta about a month ago and have clocked a solid amount of hours on it. A few comments I have re: some of the main features:

The Off-Season: IMO this is where DDS:PB2 really out-shines every other pro basketball sim on the market. I love the draft presentation and the draft itself. I would like to see more trades in the draft deal with picks themselves (teams moving into and out of the first round, etc.), but overall it's very solid. I LOVE the summer league feature. This isn't in any other sim that I know of, and I always use it to decide the bottom couple of spots on my roster, and have found some steals in the process. Free Agency logic seems pretty good to me from what I've seen, and I've pulled a "Knicks '10" and struck out on the big names often enough to keep it challenging.

The Season: Stats and results seem OK to me. I tend to play as a GM only so I give most attention to the offseason stage and just concentrate on win totals in the season mode, but the added player personality clashes has seen me take more of an interest in this aspect of the game too, which is a good thing. I also like being able to send guys down to the D-League, though I think the D-League teams should play any guy I send down big minutes. Sometimes they barely get off the bench, and I think the D-League teams IRL would be doing everything they can to encourage me to send players down.

Foreign Leagues: This was something I was looking forward to above all else, and I'm glad Gary included it. Basketball is probably the one sport outside of soccer that lends itself well to the FM-style model of world leagues and international free agency etc., and I'm actually a little surprised it took this long for the basketball text sim market to expand to include this. As it stands, I'd say this feature is a good start. The "problem" with Foreign leagues right now is to do with the fundamental way the game is designed, being focused very much on the pro-league. You have to sit through the NBA draft, NBA free agency, NBDL draft, etc. without the ability to quick-sim through, despite them not really being directly relevant to your team or league, and it makes the offseason much longer than it needs to be.

The other issue I have with Foreign leagues is that, as I said above, the offseason is the most interesting part of the game for me, and for Foreign leagues it's also the most limited part of the game. You can sign FAs from the NBA pool, but there is no dedicated Foreign Free Agency screen. There are also no exhibition or pre-season games (IIRC - I could be mistaken here?).

I don't want to sound too negative about the Foreign leagues though, because I'm glad they are there. As they are right now though I think they are something that I like to have active in the background of my NBA league, although not user-controlled. They definitely add to the immersion. I think it's a good foundation to expand on in future releases.

[molson]

Is expansion available right from the start of the game?

[Gary Gorski]

Is expansion available right from the start of the game?

Yes, start in the "pre draft" mode and before you do anything open the commissioner office and run the expansion draft

[DeToxRox]

Are their real rosters already out there or are they default?

[Big Fo]

The default rosters have all the real players.

[Gary Gorski]

Are their real rosters already out there or are they default?

And as mentioned in my release notes I will be doing a final version at the end of the month once the rosters are set. Right now its my best guess at who will make the team. The pre-draft rosters are correct as they were heading into the draft though.

[DeToxRox]

Played the demo for about an hour and loved it. Just took the plunge.

[Big Fo]

I started a new thread on the Wolverine Studios forums asking the same question but figured I might as well ask it here as well in case anyone sees it sooner.

I am at or near to the end of Summer League play and I have a Russian center that is a 1.5/2.5 star player, I'd really like to sign him in order to bolster my bench. When I click on the roster screen and click the check that takes you to the Summer League roster all of the contract options are greyed out for players that were not already on my NBA team. When can I sign these guys? Do I have to wait for free agency?

[Groundhog]

I started a new thread on the Wolverine Studios forums asking the same question but figured I might as well ask it here as well in case anyone sees it sooner.

I am at or near to the end of Summer League play and I have a Russian center that is a 1.5/2.5 star player, I'd really like to sign him in order to bolster my bench. When I click on the roster screen and click the check that takes you to the Summer League roster all of the contract options are greyed out for players that were not already on my NBA team. When can I sign these guys? Do I have to wait for free agency?

I believe you do have to wait until FA, at least that's what I've done. I use the notes feature to list the guys that impressed me, and then find them in the FA pool.

[Gary Gorski]

I just posted this over at WS but I thought I would post it here as well

This is the first year I put out a roster file before the season started and I realized tonight while doing some testing that if you are using the file that starts after the summer that all of the 2nd and 3rd year players will end up as free agents. The NBA teams are not yet at the deadline for exercising the rookie options but the game starts you past the point where that takes place so they never get exercised.

I'm going to go in and take care of it myself in the roster file and will update that on Tuesday so if you're planning on a dynasty with the post-summer rosters you may want to wait a day.

Its a quick fix - I just need to update the contract status of the young players to what they will be in a couple weeks as opposed to what they are today. Sorry for the error - like I said, this is the first time I've ever released the game before the season started :)

[DeToxRox]

I just posted this over at WS but I thought I would post it here as well



Its a quick fix - I just need to update the contract status of the young players to what they will be in a couple weeks as opposed to what they are today. Sorry for the error - like I said, this is the first time I've ever released the game before the season started :)

Does that mean the pre draft file?

[Izulde]

Does that mean the pre draft file?

Gary said after the summer, which would be post-draft and FA.

Pre-draft is still fine.

[Gary Gorski]

Yeah the pre-draft file runs through the period in the game where the AI has the ability to exercise the rookie options (right before training camp) so it should be good

[Big Fo]

Are the ratings for European players relative to the European leagues or something? If not, I'm seeing some guys that would be the best in the NBA at their respective positions.

[Gary Gorski]

Are the ratings for European players relative to the European leagues or something? If not, I'm seeing some guys that would be the best in the NBA at their respective positions.

Yes - otherwise you would see leagues full of all 1 and 2 star players :)

[DaddyTorgo]

Yes - otherwise you would see leagues full of all 1 and 2 star players :)

That's good too - makes it harder to decide who could succeed in the NBA also.

[Big Fo]

Cool, just wondering. That sounds like the best solution actually.

[whomario]

That's good too - makes it harder to decide who could succeed in the NBA also.

have you found out how to bring them over unless you draft them ? How do you get that 26 year old star Euro ?

@ Gary : Really didn´t want to come up with a smartass, but as for the data i can just sim ahead 5 years and send you the file ? It´s not isolated incidents but propably at least 30-50% of the created Big Man are able to play SF and propably the same amount of SFs/big SGs are able to play PG.

[Gary Gorski]

Yeah absolutely - like I said I definitely plan on tweaking the game created rookies some so send me your data file. a 5 year in file is great so I can see what a long term effect is.

As for the Euros you're not supposed to be able to bring them over unless you draft them. There are some very good players that don't want to enter the draft and just want to stay in Europe (just as in real life)

[whomario]

As for the Euros you're not supposed to be able to bring them over unless you draft them. There are some very good players that don't want to enter the draft and just want to stay in Europe (just as in real life)


that´s correct, but there´s also some very good players that blossom late in their career and decide to come over afterall (Mozgov just recently for the Knicks, Andersen for the Rockets/Raptors or american players like A. Parker)

I don´t want to be able to sign anybody i want, just the possibility for it to happen, that maybe 1 or 2 guys each year enter the Free Agent pool ?

[Gary Gorski]

that´s correct, but there´s also some very good players that blossom late in their career and decide to come over afterall (Mozgov just recently for the Knicks, Andersen for the Rockets/Raptors or american players like A. Parker)

I don´t want to be able to sign anybody i want, just the possibility for it to happen, that maybe 1 or 2 guys each year enter the Free Agent pool ?

Fair enough - I can make some guys "change their mind" about playing in the US

[whomario]

Fair enough - I can make some guys "change their mind" about playing in the US

mind you that´s not a priority at all, i was merely thinking out loud ;)

[TroyF]

Any updated courts and logos? Looks like most of them don't have OKC's stuff in them.

I just have to say that I love, love, love the off season on this game. Terrific amount of fun.

[DaddyTorgo]

damnit - i may have to buy this game this month. but i'm already overcommited on my gaming budget for the month

[RedKingGold]

Are NBA Teams/Rosters/Logos available in an easy to install pack?

I'm tempted reading through the new player interaction/off-season stuff.

[Gary Gorski]

Rosters are already in there and I'm sure there will be mods quickly since the logo and court dimensions are the same as before.

[Icy]

Are NBA Teams/Rosters/Logos available in an easy to install pack?

I'm tempted reading through the new player interaction/off-season stuff.

Teams take 5 minutes to edit (just nicknames) and anyway i'm sure somebody will post an updated db with those nicknames edited really quick.

Real roster is included with the game, and you can decide if to start pre draft or post draft with rookies already in their actual teams.

Logos from past year are fine and for those with some basic photoshop skills, i have just posted a template at WS forums to create the custom teams backgrounds for the office screen, so i guess some should be released soon by mod makers.

[Atocep]

I really love the variation in the coaches. I'm playing as GM-only for the Sixers and I'm having a hell of a hard time getting Doug Collins to play Jrue Holiday more than 20 minutes per game.

Doug Collins heavily prefers veterans so in an attempt to get Holiday more minutes I traded away Louis Williams and signed Rafer Alston thinking he'd back up Holiday. No. Not going to happen. Dusty Collins decided Alston's veteran presence is needed in the lineup and Holiday was still at 18-20 minutes per game.

[DaddyTorgo]

I really love the variation in the coaches. I'm playing as GM-only for the Sixers and I'm having a hell of a hard time getting Doug Collins to play Jrue Holiday more than 20 minutes per game.

Doug Collins heavily prefers veterans so in an attempt to get Holiday more minutes I traded away Louis Williams and signed Rafer Alston thinking he'd back up Holiday. No. Not going to happen. Dusty Collins decided Alston's veteran presence is needed in the lineup and Holiday was still at 18-20 minutes per game.

Fire Collins. Problem solved.

[Atocep]

Fire Collins. Problem solved.

Done. Asking him to drastically reduce Alston's minutes (he's putting up a 7.7 PER and getting 28mpg) and him basically telling me to go fuck myself was the last straw.

[Icy]

Nice examples Atocep, this is one of the few games if not the only one where i can really enjoy being just GM and not GM+Coach without house rules or role playing myself, both because coaches and players personalities.

[Gary Gorski]

Fire Collins. Problem solved.

Over/under on when the real Sixers make this decision? 10 games into next year?

[Atocep]

The game needs more emails. Some examples of emails that are needed:

*Monthly report on any players you have in the D-League
*In the D-League report maybe list a D-League free agent at each position that your team might be interested in or just D-League standouts.
*All Star rosters
*Slam Dunk/3-Point Participants

[TroyF]

I also play GM only and let the coaching staff coach.

Love how that works.

[Gary Gorski]

The game needs more emails. Some examples of emails that are needed:

*Monthly report on any players you have in the D-League
*In the D-League report maybe list a D-League free agent at each position that your team might be interested in or just D-League standouts.
*All Star rosters
*Slam Dunk/3-Point Participants

Nice ideas!

[DaddyTorgo]

Nice ideas Atocep.

I like emails. They increase the immersion.

What about a weekly/monthly league roundup? High scorers, notable achievements, etc. Sort of like a news feature so that it's pushed to you and you don't have to go in and "pull" it out?

[whomario]

+ Infinity to what DT just asked for :)

[Icy]

Btw, can the thread title be edited to Full game released or something like that?

[DaddyTorgo]

+ Infinity to what DT just asked for :)

I'm sure Troy and Gary already had this type of discussion, but the more things like that, that "push" to you that the universe is going on and evolving outside of the team you are controlling, is one of the keys to that whole side of "immersion" (which this game has made some strides in already - at least as far as i can tell from the demo). I think ultimately what may need to happen though is the addition of a different "source" for this type of thing in Gary's game, separate from the magazines, which seem more "static" and "point in time" as opposed to dynamic and evolving/pushing (not that that's a bad thing - the magazines definitely serve their purpose). But a "newspaper" type feature that would update weekly (similar to how Shaun had it in PureSim for example) is probably what I presume the end goal that Gary would desire would be. The emails pushed to users though would be (i presume) the relatively quicker & easier type solution to this.

The other side of the demo (and the side where a lot more strides seem to have been made) is with player personalities and their interactions with you the user and other players. Again, as far as I can tell from the demo so far - huge strides made here.

But - to be clear- I'm not saying any of this ought to be done now or anything. I'd still buy the game without them (or I will...not I would). Just talking "bigger picture" about this stuff - although I recognize that I'm stupid and I should have gotten involved in the process earlier and had these conversations with Gary and all.

[Gary Gorski]

I'm sure Troy and Gary already had this type of discussion, but the more things like that, that "push" to you that the universe is going on and evolving outside of the team you are controlling, is one of the keys to that whole side of "immersion" (which this game has made some strides in already - at least as far as i can tell from the demo). I think ultimately what may need to happen though is the addition of a different "source" for this type of thing in Gary's game, separate from the magazines, which seem more "static" and "point in time" as opposed to dynamic and evolving/pushing (not that that's a bad thing - the magazines definitely serve their purpose). But a "newspaper" type feature that would update weekly (similar to how Shaun had it in PureSim for example) is probably what I presume the end goal that Gary would desire would be. The emails pushed to users though would be (i presume) the relatively quicker & easier type solution to this.

The other side of the demo (and the side where a lot more strides seem to have been made) is with player personalities and their interactions with you the user and other players. Again, as far as I can tell from the demo so far - huge strides made here.

But - to be clear- I'm not saying any of this ought to be done now or anything. I'd still buy the game without them (or I will...not I would). Just talking "bigger picture" about this stuff - although I recognize that I'm stupid and I should have gotten involved in the process earlier and had these conversations with Gary and all.

You're hitting on a subject that Bill Harris and I have talked about many times and its the "push" aspect - feel free to expand upon the idea and definitely if it can make the game better I will try to add it.

[DaddyTorgo]

You're hitting on a subject that Bill Harris and I have talked about many times and its the "push" aspect - feel free to expand upon the idea and definitely if it can make the game better I will try to add it.

Certainly there's a balancing aspect between how much you push - you can't push EVERYTHING.

That's why in the case of say FM they created a separate "news" section featuring news from around the league/world and then an Inbox for news pertaining to your team. So you can pick & choose how much to be immersed into it.

Strangely, they've admitted that was somewhat of a misstep on their part I guess, and are going back to merging everything together (although with powerful filtering abilities I guess?).

I suppose that really is the best of both worlds. "Push" all the info to the player (emails about his own team & players, emails about league occurences and former players, notable players (above a certain * level maybe?), milestones, etc., but give the user the ability to filter what they want to be displayed - so if I don't want to see all the league news I can just filter it out and it won't be displayed - that way I don't have to scroll through it all to find what I do want to see.

From the perspective of the gamer, more information about the surrounding universe of the game immerses the player in it. It makes decision-making take on a more organic quality, and also leads I think to that holy grail that game designers want - players spending time away from the game but thinking about the game.

I can't tell you how many hours of my non FM-playing time I spend thinking about my players in FM, but it's a lot. Thinking about potential transfer targets who I've been keeping an eye on and how they'd fit into my team, etc.

Pushing the information to the user (because the info is all there in your games - there's a huge degree of history and information on current seasons, past seasons, etc.) makes that information processing more subconscious and also I think makes it more prone to "real" decisions (decisions based on emotion and feelings rather than strictly analytical).

I felt that DDSPB was actually pretty good at this although it didn't push a lot - I torpedoed my successful Celtics team in part because I stayed loyal to a guy I drafted in the Top 5 even when he started to go over-the-hill.

I'm not really sure how to explain it other than to say that in our daily lives we "consume" a lot of information that is pushed at us...so when a game takes this approach the pathways of the mind are...already greased and ready to accept the info, so it flows in easier? If that even makes any sense.

Anyways - far too long a post and getting off-topic from the game and far more general, and I finished my lunch so I need to get back to work.

Back to talking about the excellent game please. Even though I've allotted my game-budget for the month, I'm seriously considering going over it in order to pick this up sooner rather than later.

[DeToxRox]

Two things. Both are minor to me but:

1. Using Seattle as an expansion team, the default schedule is wonky. I have played like 7 games in 10 days and it is basically like that all year. We have 5 or 6 day breaks once or month then tons of games in a row. This personally doesn't bother me but I can see where it would bother some.

2. The league leaders screen. The green font to indicate your player is impossible to ready in the light color box. Easily fixed by highlighting but just something I'd throw out there.

Love this game though.

[Gary Gorski]

Two things. Both are minor to me but:

1. Using Seattle as an expansion team, the default schedule is wonky. I have played like 7 games in 10 days and it is basically like that all year. We have 5 or 6 day breaks once or month then tons of games in a row. This personally doesn't bother me but I can see where it would bother some.

2. The league leaders screen. The green font to indicate your player is impossible to ready in the light color box. Easily fixed by highlighting but just something I'd throw out there.

Love this game though.

The schedule thing has been discussed during the beta - I expanded the schedule to 92 to make it a little bit simpler on my end but I've discussed an alternative design that would get to 82 games without some crazy algorithm and I will be implementing that shortly.

2. It defaults to your team's color but maybe I should just make it something like an off white or something to distinguish it but still be readable easily

[Sweed]

Btw, can the thread title be edited to Full game released or something like that?

Fixed:)

[Gary Gorski]

Fixed:)

Nice - I was wondering when there would be an Alright boyz...thread for the game

[Gary Gorski]

Update - version 1.01 is available

DDS:PB2 Update - Latest version 1.01 - Wolverine Studios (http://www.wolverinestudios.com/forum/showthread.php?p=79652#post79652)


What's updated :

A very quick and minor yet important update to address the following:
- updated default.dat roster file to begin with properly picked up rookie options for 2nd and 3rd year players in the "post-summer" game mode.
- edited ratings for Jeff Teague, Jrue Holiday, DeJuan Blair and Rodrigue Beaubois
- fixed crash viewing standings after day 1
- fixed crash looking at non-pro league transaction report
- fixed game freeze when advancing to new season using Euro league
- added popup at that stage to alert user game is processing alot of code
- changed display color of your players on league leaders screen from team color to gray

There will certainly be more substantial updates to follow but the contract thing was a biggie because it messed up year two free agency. And as promised there will be a final roster update toward the end of the month in addition to continued bug fixes and suggestions being implemented.

[Atocep]

Update - version 1.01 is available

DDS:PB2 Update - Latest version 1.01 - Wolverine Studios (http://www.wolverinestudios.com/forum/showthread.php?p=79652#post79652)

Thanks Gary

I was coming here to post the contract thing because my first year of free agency (I started my career at the beginning of this season instead of during the summer) was flooded with guys who didn't get their rookie options picked up.

[Big Fo]

Stan van Gundy might have been named Coach of the Year in my first season but I'm getting kind of annoyed with his insistence on giving Dwight Howard a handful of minutes per game despite having a broken arm.

[Gary Gorski]

Thanks Gary

I was coming here to post the contract thing because my first year of free agency (I started my career at the beginning of this season instead of during the summer) was flooded with guys who didn't get their rookie options picked up.

Yeah I noticed it myself last night running some tests - this was the first time I have ever released the game prior to the season and the data I was using for salaries did not have the NBA teams picking up those options yet (they dont have to until the end of the month) so they just went into FA in the game. So I redid the salary part of the file so that the options are picked up - if for some reason a team doesn't pick up somebody's option I will remove it for the final roster build late this month.

[Gary Gorski]

Stan van Gundy might have been named Coach of the Year in my first season but I'm getting kind of annoyed with his insistence on giving Dwight Howard a handful of minutes per game despite having a broken arm.

Well that's clearly a bug.

The Howard thing could be too - is there no other center on the roster or something or is it a "progressively healed" broken arm where he already sat out for months but is coming back early? If its a recent injury and he's playing I'd like to see the file to see what the logic is. It could be the hidden SVG logic easter egg at work too. (ie do what makes the least amount of sense)

[Big Fo]

Well that's clearly a bug.

The Howard thing could be too - is there no other center on the roster or something or is it a "progressively healed" broken arm where he already sat out for months but is coming back early? If its a recent injury and he's playing I'd like to see the file to see what the logic is. It could be the hidden SVG logic easter egg at work too. (ie do what makes the least amount of sense)

I still have Gortat, he was starting with Howard out. I didn't have a third center and Howard's injury had him at 41% (that number stayed constant for the first two weeks at least, I didn't check towards the end since I am a fast-simmer and I knew the team was going to wind up as the #2 seed anyway). Maybe the SVG AI figured 41% of Howard was better than one of my backup power forwards. For the duration of his injury Howard was the 12th man on the depth chart.

Unfortunately Howard is healthy now and I did not save in the meantime so I'm not sure if sending the file in would do any good.

[Gary Gorski]

Hmm he shouldnt have been playing at 41% - something else must have been at work. Do you still have the file at or around the point of his being injured?

[Gary Gorski]

So....anyone else out there going to give this is a shot? Anything you guys already playing it are liking or disliking? I'm working on the first update right now so if there are good suggestions I want to work them in if possible

[markprior22]

Hey Gary...is there any way to give an option to turn off the sound once you've started playing a game? A couple of times I've been listening to music or radio on the computer and forgot to turn off the sound when starting the game. If not, it's ok...I'll just have to pay closer attention.

[DaddyTorgo]

So....anyone else out there going to give this is a shot? Anything you guys already playing it are liking or disliking? I'm working on the first update right now so if there are good suggestions I want to work them in if possible

I'll be buying :) .

Just need to pull the trigger one of these days. Already have gaming dollars allocated for later in the month and trying to keep myself to max 1 game/month, so waiting for a moment of weakness or a moment of feeling $$$$.

[Capital]

Very encouraged about what you could come up with for the 82 game schedule when expanding to 32 teams at the start of the game. I never really wanted to play a 92 game schedule and was considering contracting some teams to get to play with 30 teams with expansion.

I will be giving this game some time over the weekend.

[nZane]

Purchased this the other day and have been playing the crap out of it. Good stuff so far!

Any chance you could incorporate the overall and potential ratings on the Team Roster somewhere? Either the Roster or Ratings tabs would work.

One other small thing off the top of my head, also on the Ratings tab of Team Roster, would be to have the ratings sort in descending order when you click a header. Right now, it seems a bit counter-intuitive to have them sort in ascending order.

[Atocep]

Something things I'd like to see:

*Feedback from free agents on why an offer was rejected. "I'm holding out for a better offer", "I'm looking for a team in better position to win a title", "I'm looking for a better opportunity to start", "I going to take my time and see what other offers come along." Stuff like that.

*When starting a game at the beginning of the season instead of the summer have the owner call right before you start so you can go over expectations and cap details.

*In the war room highlight the guys you worked out on the list.

*Email telling me which players showed notable improvement over the offseason and if anyone took a step backwards.

[Coffee Warlord]

Yeah, I'll have to pick this up soon, I'm afraid.

Congrats on the release, Gary!

[Atocep]

Another thing, when a player has played for multiple teams in a season and you bring up his stats page from the player card you see his stats for the first team he played for that season and his totals. It'd be nice to see his stats for each team along with the totals.

[Gary Gorski]

Hey Gary...is there any way to give an option to turn off the sound once you've started playing a game? A couple of times I've been listening to music or radio on the computer and forgot to turn off the sound when starting the game. If not, it's ok...I'll just have to pay closer attention.

I will add an option on the "options" popup in the game

[Gary Gorski]

Another thing, when a player has played for multiple teams in a season and you bring up his stats page from the player card you see his stats for the first team he played for that season and his totals. It'd be nice to see his stats for each team along with the totals.

It should display it by team after season 1 - for example if Vince Carter was traded in the middle of year 1 it should say something like

ORL 40 games, stat line.....
Current Season 70 games, stat line.....

But in year two his stats should read

Current Season 25 games, stat line....
CHI yr1, 30 games, stat line....
ORL yr1, 40 games, stat line...

[Professor58]

Sort of a lazy GM, any way could incorporate the overall and potential ratings on the Free Agent screen? Also ( again lazy) have a shop player around on the trade screen ?

[Sweed]

Game is addictive and the only sports title where I am comfortable simulating games. All others I feel the need to manage\coach but Gary your games allow me to just hire the coach and let him do his thing while I go about the task of building\maintaining the team itself.

On to my suggestions..


1. I posted this, about 10 days ago when I first bought the game, in the First Access section of wolverine but with only one view I'm not sure it was ever noted.

highlighting players when inviting to workout in the mock draft window

Currently the game only highlights players in the selection window if you click on them. Would it be possible, when looking at players to workout before the draft, to highlight players in both the selection window and in the mock-draft window when you click on them?

It would be an easier way to see where the guy projects to go without having to look through the mock draft list to see where, or if, he is on it. This would be nice for the border line guys you might want to invite but you're not sure where he fits, in the mock draft, compared to your position in the real draft. Being able to glance over to the list and immediately see where he is would be a nice little helper.


Certainly not a high priority but would be a nice touch if it is easy to do.

2. Not thrilled with the new "gray" highlighting of our team's players in the league leaders lists. I want my guys to jump out at me not have to scan the list for the "dull spot". Being able to customize the color would be the best solution IMHO.

FWIW I know there were issues using team primary colors as I use the Lakers and the purple was as bad as the new gray. My solution then was to reverse the Lakers primary and secondary colors so my players highlighted in yellow.

3. In the boxscore is there any chance of being able to highlight vertical columns when the header is clicked? The every other color change for horizontal is fine but I like to glance down columns IE steals, TO, rebounds etc. and get a quick over view of how everyone did in that one stat. Not a big deal but would be a nice touch IMHO.

[Gary Gorski]

Sort of a lazy GM, any way could incorporate the overall and potential ratings on the Free Agent screen? Also ( again lazy) have a shop player around on the trade screen ?

Maybe I can add it as an optional rating that is defaulted off that you can turn on with a click - the reason its not there is that some people in the past have been vocal about not wanting to see the overall ratings as they felt it made it "too easy".

[Gary Gorski]

Game is addictive and the only sports title where I am comfortable simulating games. All others I feel the need to manage\coach but Gary your games allow me to just hire the coach and let him do his thing while I go about the task of building\maintaining the team itself.

On to my suggestions..


1. I posted this, about 10 days ago when I first bought the game, in the First Access section of wolverine but with only one view I'm not sure it was ever noted.



2. Not thrilled with the new "gray" highlighting of our team's players in the league leaders lists. I want my guys to jump out at me not have to scan the list for the "dull spot". Being able to customize the color would be the best solution IMHO.

FWIW I know there were issues using team primary colors as I use the Lakers and the purple was as bad as the new gray. My solution then was to reverse the Lakers primary and secondary colors so my players highlighted in yellow.

3. In the boxscore is there any chance of being able to highlight vertical columns when the header is clicked? The every other color change for horizontal is fine but I like to glance down columns IE steals, TO, rebounds etc. and get a quick over view of how everyone did in that one stat. Not a big deal but would be a nice touch IMHO.

1. Yes I will try to highlight those players

2. There are some teams like Miami who's colors are black and a dark red - neither would be ideal in the case so I can just make it yellow to pop more

3. Don't know how much work that would take - if its something actually built into the control it would be an easy fix. If not I will have to investigate what it would take to do it.

[TroyF]

Maybe I can add it as an optional rating that is defaulted off that you can turn on with a click - the reason its not there is that some people in the past have been vocal about not wanting to see the overall ratings as they felt it made it "too easy".


I guess I don't get this. In the real world, an NBA team knows exactly what they are trading for. They know that with Carmelo they'll be getting a star and they'll know exactly what his weaknesses are. They know if they trade for JR Smith they'll be getting a guy who can be anything from a 1 star idiot to a 4 star stud depending on the situation.

That's why those potential ratings are so critical and how often a guy hits them. Ty Lawson could be nothing more than Pargo or he could be a Chris Paul lite. The challenge isn't knowing the players potential, it's trying to figure out how much you are going to give up to take a chance on that potential.

Just my two cents.

[whomario]

1. I posted this, about 10 days ago when I first bought the game, in the First Access section of wolverine but with only one view I'm not sure it was ever noted.



the wolverine board at some point stopped counting views and now counts posts in the "view" category, every new topic has 1 view, every topic with 5 replies has 6 views, every topic with 20 replies has 21 views. So it wasn´t totally ignored, although clearly not interestin enough to garner a response :D ;)

[Gary Gorski]

I guess I don't get this. In the real world, an NBA team knows exactly what they are trading for. They know that with Carmelo they'll be getting a star and they'll know exactly what his weaknesses are. They know if they trade for JR Smith they'll be getting a guy who can be anything from a 1 star idiot to a 4 star stud depending on the situation.

That's why those potential ratings are so critical and how often a guy hits them. Ty Lawson could be nothing more than Pargo or he could be a Chris Paul lite. The challenge isn't knowing the players potential, it's trying to figure out how much you are going to give up to take a chance on that potential.

Just my two cents.

I just give the people what they want and at the time the people (or at least the vocal ones) felt that seeing the overall ratings splashed all over the place took away from the challenge of the game. If that's not the case any longer I'm happy to make the change - its not like you can't get the overall ratings by clicking on the player card anyway so the info is there - I just made it one extra step to get it since that's what people wanted at the time.

[DaddyTorgo]

I just give the people what they want and at the time the people (or at least the vocal ones) felt that seeing the overall ratings splashed all over the place took away from the challenge of the game. If that's not the case any longer I'm happy to make the change - its not like you can't get the overall ratings by clicking on the player card anyway so the info is there - I just made it one extra step to get it since that's what people wanted at the time.

Hmm...I guess I can see it both ways. Doesn't necessarily bother me the way it is.

[Izulde]

You already know I want the 90, 60, 30 day separate options in trade restrictions back. :D

I always play with 60 day trade restrictions in DDSPB1 because I always thought the 90 was too restrictive.

[Sweed]

1. Yes I will try to highlight those players

2. There are some teams like Miami who's colors are black and a dark red - neither would be ideal in the case so I can just make it yellow to pop more

3. Don't know how much work that would take - if its something actually built into the control it would be an easy fix. If not I will have to investigate what it would take to do it.

Thanks, I appreciate your efforts.

[Sweed]

the wolverine board at some point stopped counting views and now counts posts in the "view" category, every new topic has 1 view, every topic with 5 replies has 6 views, every topic with 20 replies has 21 views. So it wasn´t totally ignored, although clearly not interestin enough to garner a response :D ;)


Thanks..:( :redface: :hangs head and slowly walks away in shame:

:)

[Neon_Chaos]

I just give the people what they want and at the time the people (or at least the vocal ones) felt that seeing the overall ratings splashed all over the place took away from the challenge of the game. If that's not the case any longer I'm happy to make the change - its not like you can't get the overall ratings by clicking on the player card anyway so the info is there - I just made it one extra step to get it since that's what people wanted at the time.

This has been my biggest pet peeve with all the DDS ball games.

I never understood why it didn't have the choice to have the overall star ratings on the list. I am a big proponent of having as much information as I could have at a glance. I hated clicking every single one of my players to check the ratings... it was tedious and cumbersome. Instead of having the info at my disposal, i had to click twice per player, one to view his player card and another to go back.

It would be awesome if this was an option that could be turned on and off, similar to hidden player ratings.

[Izulde]

I will add an option on the "options" popup in the game

You can also click the Sound On right now at the game's opening screen to turn it Off like i always do.

[markprior22]

You can also click the Sound On right now at the game's opening screen to turn it Off like i always do.

Unless you forget and move ahead into the game. Then you're screwed until the game is over.

[molson]

I just give the people what they want and at the time the people (or at least the vocal ones) felt that seeing the overall ratings splashed all over the place took away from the challenge of the game. If that's not the case any longer I'm happy to make the change - its not like you can't get the overall ratings by clicking on the player card anyway so the info is there - I just made it one extra step to get it since that's what people wanted at the time.

That's so bizarre that I almost wonder if there was some miscommunication in the feedback. I totally understand wanting less ratings (I always use a limited 2-8 scale, for example, in OOTP), but I've never heard anyone claim that it's good for a text sim "challenge" to have certain information require more clicks to get to. That's just weird.

I think the way to go is just have options on the size of the ratings scale, and have an option for entirely hidden ratings if someone wants that.

[SteveMax58]

I think the way to go is just have options on the size of the ratings scale, and have an option for entirely hidden ratings if someone wants that.

+1

I think if you want a greater challenge then change the granularity of the ratings. Instead of 1-100, then go 1-5...or a 1-3 scale or A-C, etc.

You should always have a very high level idea of a player's talent...just like we commonly know about every player in the NBA right now. This is similar to how we all might have a different answer on a 1-100 scale for each player...move that scale to 1-5 and we will all agree more often...move it to 1-3 and we'll all likely agree on almost every player...so and so forth. The challenge I think most would appreciate is in how granular they want to get vs. the amount of time they have to play the game. The less time...the more granular one might want them.

Just my 2 cents.

[jbergey22]

A few years in once some of the current players retire the stats start to get wacky.

For instance the C/PF's only have one or two players averaging over 20 points per game. I have 43 players in 2019 averaging over 1.5 blocks per game(11 over 3 and a lot of them are guards)

Only 11 players are averaging over 20 points per game.(1 over 25)

It seems to me that once the current players start retiring we see a lot of equal talent distrubution and the shooting percentages steadily decrease.

I see a lot of 4/5 star players that shoot under 40 percent for some reason. (Taking too many jump shots perhaps?)

[Big Fo]

I would also like sortable overall ratings in the free agency, team roster, and summer league screens, it would save me a lot of clicking. Being able to use overall or potential ratings in the player search screen would also be nice.

I think that maybe the team owner should differentiate between things the previous GM did and what the current one has done. While playing as the Orlando GM I would keep getting complaints about the payroll but it's not my fault that Pietrus, Bass, Gortat, and (epecially) Lewis had such bad, long-term contracts when I took the job. I was never able to trade those guys, nobody else wanted their contracts either. And Orlando's owner IRL has shown a willingness to pay the luxury tax but on the game the owner's willingness to spend is just "average" so maybe that could be changed as well (can't find a way to edit that).

When viewing the Almanac I would like to be able to click on a player's name and then see his profile/ratings (if still active). Say I want to go back to three years ago and see how some of the top draft picks from that year are panning out: I have to go to the draft history in the Almanac, see the player, go to his team (if he even plays on the same team) and then click on him to see his profile/ratings.

Although I have not gone through as many seasons as jbergey22, I have seen some of what he mentioned regarding the shooting percentages of generated players.

[Marmel]

I owned one of the first versions of Wolverine's Pro basketball game and the thing I hated about it was that every new dynasty was pretty much the same. All the players were rated the same, they all seemed to age the same and put up the same numbers career after career.

Does this game function the same way? I'll probably try the demo anyway.

[jbergey22]

I owned one of the first versions of Wolverine's Pro basketball game and the thing I hated about it was that every new dynasty was pretty much the same. All the players were rated the same, they all seemed to age the same and put up the same numbers career after career.

Does this game function the same way? I'll probably try the demo anyway.

I think major improvements have been made in this area. We just need him to tweek a few things about how new players are generated. The future of this game has a bunch of Josh Smith type players and not any Kobe Bryant, Lebron James, Kevin Durant type players. Maybe the players are created too good defensively so it hurts scoring. Im not sure.

Id also like to see a bit more randomness out of the 2nd round. Its seems every player I get in the 2nd round is a 2* player. Id like to see more busts with the once every 3-4 years Gilbert Arenas type that evolves into a 4 star player.

The best news for me is I have had zero crashes with this version. It seems very stable.

[korme]

I'd love to see some mod makers try to set up a roster file from like 1979 or so with draft files in each succeeding year. I'd help if I could.

[Gary Gorski]

Yes, the created players are on my "to-do" list. I certainly agree they need a bit of tweaking. There were comments here and there about some guys in the future during the beta but there wasn't much hard data presented. It's hard to tweak it based on somebody's guess, you know? If you have a league 5 or so years in that you see some of these things in then send me the files (instructions are in the WS Tech Support forum) and I will analyze the ratings compared to where they are when the game starts and can see exactly what is getting skewed over time.

I've also been tweaking the engine a bit (post 1.01) to make the players have an ability to differentiate their play from their ratings based on the players on the floor. What does that mean? Well basically right now I have seen that players that are highly efficient tend to overproduce if you build a "super efficient" team. What the logic needs to take into account (and now does in my 1.1 build I'm working on) is that part of the efficiency of a Mike Miller or Kyle Korver type is that they get open looks based on their opponents having to worry a bit more about someone else. These type of players are not meant to be "the man" and if you effectively put them in that role right now it does not punish them enough. Somebody has to shoot the ball so they get more shots than they deserve and the game thinks they are a high percentage shooter so they make more than they would in that scenario. Going forward those players will not be as efficient shooting the ball without a more dominant "scorer" on the floor.

[Gary Gorski]

dola - the goal of the above is to make it even more realistic in building a team and forcing you to build all the "parts" of a good team. In this case having a player who is a high rated player in scoring is a benefit - even if he himself is not a great % player - the fact that he has a high SC rating means he can create for himself and cause the defense to pay more attention to him thereby allowing your role players to be more efficient

[DaddyTorgo]

Yes, the created players are on my "to-do" list. I certainly agree they need a bit of tweaking. There were comments here and there about some guys in the future during the beta but there wasn't much hard data presented. It's hard to tweak it based on somebody's guess, you know? If you have a league 5 or so years in that you see some of these things in then send me the files (instructions are in the WS Tech Support forum) and I will analyze the ratings compared to where they are when the game starts and can see exactly what is getting skewed over time.

I've also been tweaking the engine a bit (post 1.01) to make the players have an ability to differentiate their play from their ratings based on the players on the floor. What does that mean? Well basically right now I have seen that players that are highly efficient tend to overproduce if you build a "super efficient" team. What the logic needs to take into account (and now does in my 1.1 build I'm working on) is that part of the efficiency of a Mike Miller or Kyle Korver type is that they get open looks based on their opponents having to worry a bit more about someone else. These type of players are not meant to be "the man" and if you effectively put them in that role right now it does not punish them enough. Somebody has to shoot the ball so they get more shots than they deserve and the game thinks they are a high percentage shooter so they make more than they would in that scenario. Going forward those players will not be as efficient shooting the ball without a more dominant "scorer" on the floor.

wow!

color me impressed. that's some higher-level thinking right there!

[jbergey22]

Files sent.

One other thing to look at perhaps is game difficulty. I made it to the conference finals as the Twolves in 2013 and subsequently made it 2 more times after that without doing much of anything other than accepting computer generated trades and drafting.

[Big Fo]

Frustrated in his attempts to win a sixth ring and catch Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant decided to join the Miami Heat in the 2014 offseason, signing for the mid-level exemption.

As if that team wasn't already stacked (65, 66, and 62 wins the past three years after underachieving in the 2010-11 season) with LeBron, Wade, Bosh, Mike Miller, Udonis Haslem, Carl Landry, Gerald Wallace, Sam Dalembert, and a generated center all having a 2.5 or better overall rating.

But my Magic have beaten them in two of the last three Eastern Conference Finals :cool:

I finally got rid of the last bad Otis Smith contract and actually had enough cap room to go after players that wouldn't take the MLE. So now I have Evan Turner to go with 2-time MVP Dwight Howard and reigning league MVP Tiago Splitter (who is a beast, scoring 25 ppg while shooting 60% the last two seasons). It should be another formality of a regular season and then a tough battle against Miami in the ECFs.

[bhsw77]

*Email telling me which players showed notable improvement over the offseason and if anyone took a step backwards.
Question on this Atocep -- this has been suggested before but I have a question that I haven't yet heard a good answer to -- feel free to be the first! :)

If you do this kind of 'player progression' thing on a game like DDSPB2 that has built-in fog-of-war scouting error, you have to do one of two things.

1. Base it on the scouted ratings, in which case you could have a report of a player getting better who actually got worse, or vice versa, because what changed is your opinion, not their actual abilities.

2. Base it on actual ratings, in which case the player can safely ignore the scouted ratings and it makes the whole thing pointless as it breaks the reality of the game.

Thoughts?

jbergey -- the million-dollar question is WHY is it that easy? Did you get lucky with draft picks? Did you get a bunch of players traded to you in absurd trades? There is 'stupid GM' code in the game which will cause that to happen sometimes, but it's one of those realism v. strategy things -- should the game mimic reality or should it be a pure strategy thing where it should be made as hard as possible, even if RL isn't that way? Gary tends to go the mimicing reality direction, but we are always looking for more input on this.

[Big Fo]

If added, I think it would be best in a "Base it on the scouted ratings, in which case you could have a report of a player getting better who actually got worse, or vice versa, because what changed is your opinion, not their actual abilities" way.

If your scouts are wrong, oh well, that's part of the struggle.

[DaddyTorgo]

I like realism. Stupid GM's are a part of life after all. And there's no guarentee the stupid-GM will contact you versus say another team.

[Atocep]

Question on this Atocep -- this has been suggested before but I have a question that I haven't yet heard a good answer to -- feel free to be the first! :)

If you do this kind of 'player progression' thing on a game like DDSPB2 that has built-in fog-of-war scouting error, you have to do one of two things.

1. Base it on the scouted ratings, in which case you could have a report of a player getting better who actually got worse, or vice versa, because what changed is your opinion, not their actual abilities.

2. Base it on actual ratings, in which case the player can safely ignore the scouted ratings and it makes the whole thing pointless as it breaks the reality of the game.

Thoughts?


The first.

This should be based on your what your coaching staff "sees" so their ability to evaluate talent would be in play here.

You should see this type of report for guys in the first 3 years or so in the league. After that, as Troy mentioned earlier, everyone tends to know what they have (there are some exceptions). Although guys showing up in bad shape and the popular "best shape of his career" does happen for older guys and would be good to see as well (to make the best shape of his career thing accurate 90% of the time you'd see absolutely nothing different in the guy's play).

[jbergey22]

jbergey -- the million-dollar question is WHY is it that easy? Did you get lucky with draft picks? Did you get a bunch of players traded to you in absurd trades? There is 'stupid GM' code in the game which will cause that to happen sometimes, but it's one of those realism v. strategy things -- should the game mimic reality or should it be a pure strategy thing where it should be made as hard as possible, even if RL isn't that way? Gary tends to go the mimicing reality direction, but we are always looking for more input on this.

I think its a combination of being offered trades that really helped me out and the fact that ratings give away too much. I play with ratings off however I can still see the potential ratings in which players normally eventaully get to that potential. Id love to see this be a bit more random. An example would be Thabeet last year as the #2 pick. In this game he'd come out with 4 star potential and eventually get there. In RL he is no where close to that just a year later. I'd like to see a bit more random in the ratings. Id say around 5 out of the top 10 picks on any given year dont even end up being decent starters in the NBA.

[Gary Gorski]

Files sent.

One other thing to look at perhaps is game difficulty. I made it to the conference finals as the Twolves in 2013 and subsequently made it 2 more times after that without doing much of anything other than accepting computer generated trades and drafting.

Well first just because the Twolves have not been very good as of late don't forget they were good in the KG days and most importantly the goal should be that you can take a team and win with them - even if they aren't that great now.

Also if you're talking 2013 there's a number of things that could have happened in that timeline. Player progression on Love and Beasley and Flynn, the possibility of bringing Rubio back and his progression, a really good lotto pick, the decline of the Spurs and Kobe due to age...

I just don't want the fact that your Twolves made the WCF 3 years down the road to be seen as a possible negative - who knows what could have happened in that timeline especially without Kahn running them ;)

[jbergey22]

Well first just because the Twolves have not been very good as of late don't forget they were good in the KG days and most importantly the goal should be that you can take a team and win with them - even if they aren't that great now.

Also if you're talking 2013 there's a number of things that could have happened in that timeline. Player progression on Love and Beasley and Flynn, the possibility of bringing Rubio back and his progression, a really good lotto pick, the decline of the Spurs and Kobe due to age...

I just don't want the fact that your Twolves made the WCF 3 years down the road to be seen as a possible negative - who knows what could have happened in that timeline especially without Kahn running them ;)

This is all true. I was actually offered Wall for Love which allowed Flynn/Rubio to be dealt for draft picks and Josh Smith. I was lucky. Maybe my point was that the draft picks seem to all turn out very good players and perhaps this needs to be a bit more random like the Thabeet example we had discussed on the WS forum.

What I mean is have Thabeet come out of the draft as a 4 star potential, 1 star current and never actually reach that potential so he still has value based on his potential he may or may not reach. After about 4-5 years in the league his potential would drop to what he currently is.

I think the game gives away too much about the players right after the draft. You wont see player improve from a 1 star to a 4 star and you wont see a potential 4 star end up a 1 star bust. It makes trading very simple to know exactly what you are getting.

[Gary Gorski]

What I mean is have Thabeet come out of the draft as a 4 star potential, 1 star current and never actually reach that potential so he still has value based on his potential he may or may not reach. After about 4-5 years in the league his potential would drop to what he currently is.

I think the game gives away too much about the players right after the draft. You wont see player improve from a 1 star to a 4 star and you wont see a potential 4 star end up a 1 star bust. It makes trading very simple to know exactly what you are getting.

The game actually does this - even to the point where after a certain period of time it just gives up the "potential" of a player and the player just is what he is.

I think an interesting study would be to evaluate say 5 draft classes and write down what the current/potential was of each of the top ten guys prior to the draft and to see what they were 5 years later (so it would take a 10 year sim) and see what exactly the "Thabeet percentage" is

[Gary Gorski]

Also per the comments in this thread i think that maybe Splitter and Love may be slightly overrated and Wall perhaps underrated. I tried to be cautious on Wall but it sounds like he's going to be impressive right away.

[Groundhog]

The game actually does this - even to the point where after a certain period of time it just gives up the "potential" of a player and the player just is what he is.

I think an interesting study would be to evaluate say 5 draft classes and write down what the current/potential was of each of the top ten guys prior to the draft and to see what they were 5 years later (so it would take a 10 year sim) and see what exactly the "Thabeet percentage" is

I've seen this. I had a guy on my team, a late 1st rounder, who came in as a 1/2 star but with 3 1/2 potential (IIRC). I kept him around for about 5 seasons based on his potential, then he levelled out as a 1.5/1.5 guy.

[Gary Gorski]

I'd like to see a bit more random in the ratings. Id say around 5 out of the top 10 picks on any given year dont even end up being decent starters in the NBA.

Out of the top 10 I would say the following were decent starters or better

09 : Griffin (assuming health), Harden, Evans, Rubio (assuming he comes over), Curry, Jennings - Flynn borderline, DeRozan possible so thats 6-8 out of 10
08 : Rose, Mayo, Westbrook, Love, Gallinari, Eric Gordon, Brook Lopez - Beasley and Augustin probably starters too so 7-9 out of 10
07 : Durant, Horford, Conley, Jeff Green, Noah - Oden if he could stay healthy so 5-6 out of 10
06 : Bargnani, Aldrdige, Roy, Gay - maybe Tyrus Thomas so 4-5 out of 10
05 : Bogut, Marvin Williams, Deron Williams, CP3, Felton, Bynum - Martell Webster has shown flashes so 6-7 out of 10

Out of the past top 50 players I would say only the following were just awful - Diogu, Sene, O'Bryant, Shelden Williams, Morrison, Brandan Wright, Joe Alexander, Jordan Hill (still early) and Thabeet.

So roughly 35 legit starters, 6 serviceable guys (Yi, Brewer, Hawes, Foye, Charlie V, Frye) but not what you want from a top 10, and 9 busts or potential busts

[laser]

Purchased this the other day and have been playing the crap out of it. Good stuff so far!

Any chance you could incorporate the overall and potential ratings on the Team Roster somewhere? Either the Roster or Ratings tabs would work.

One other small thing off the top of my head, also on the Ratings tab of Team Roster, would be to have the ratings sort in descending order when you click a header. Right now, it seems a bit counter-intuitive to have them sort in ascending order.


I would definetely like to see the overall and potential ratings on the Team Roster as well as the free agent screen. Having it as an option to turn on or off would be great. It is really annoying to have to go to each card to find this information.

I really would like to have the overall and potential ratings available when doing an inaugural draft. That would save a lot of time.

I played the game in beta and have been playing over the last couple of days. The game made a great jump from version 1. I definetely recommend that anyone who enjoyed version 1 make the purchase to upgrade to version 2.

[Gary Gorski]

ok well consider adding visible current and potential ratings officially on the update list :)

[Bigsmooth]

How about some kind of ratings change tracker? Would really be nice as I've had to take before/after screenshots for DDS 1. Pain in the arse.

Also, when do player ratings actually change? How many times per season?

[Gary Gorski]

Player ratings can change at two points during the season and after training camp.

A ratings tracker would be a pretty big addition I would think - I'll look into it and see what I would have to do.

[Bigsmooth]

Player ratings can change at two points during the season and after training camp.

A ratings tracker would be a pretty big addition I would think - I'll look into it and see what I would have to do.

That would be a nice addition and I'm surprised a modder hasn't been able to make one using the tables. Would you mind telling us exactly when the ratings change during the season? If not, that's cool.

[Gary Gorski]

PM sent regarding ratings change - didnt want to post it here in case some people don't want to know this info

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

First off Gary I want to thank you for putting out such a fantastic game. I have yet to buy a game from wolverine but after playing the demo of your latest creation, I don't think I am going to be able to resist much longer. Part of it might have to do with my Chicago Bulls being first place at the All-Star break :D

Also just wanted to point out a neat thing. Carlos Arroyo was buried on my depth chart and started picking fights with Raja Bell on the team. Well it caught my attention and I looked at Arroyos' attributs and I couldn't start him ahead of Bell but I noticed he was definitely better than Hinrich so I started giving Hinrichs minutes to Arroyo and the team went on a ten game winning streak! Looks like Arroyo was right to act out. Hopefully, Kirk continues to be a good trooper :D

A couple of questions:

1) Are there interactions between players on different teams? For instance, are rivalries developed because of free agency or trade fallout a la Shaq and Kobe? Or do players trashtalk before a game which might help motivate or get under the other players skin? Something like Raja Bell and Kobe comes to mind.

2) For the simpler, hard cap salary option, is it possible to take away the individual max contracts so we can get into real bidding wars?

3) This is probably WAY too much to ask for but Do you think its possible to make a custom schedule generator in a patch or is there some way to change how the game makes the schedule? I have always wished the NBA would have more of an imbalanced schedule towards division play. Something like you face each team in your division 13 times for 52 games, conference games twice which would be 20 games, and facing one division outside of your conference twice for 10 games and that adds up to 82. Way too complicated right? I figured it doesn't hurt to ask

Regardless of the answers, I know I will be buying the game. It is a ton of fun and I have to see how my bulls finish off the season.

[bhsw77]

I can answer #3 as it has been discussed before. There is an option for making a database with a custom schedule in it. But for making a random one like that, the answer is almost certainly no just because of the extreme degree of difficulty involved.

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

Thanks for the quick response! I figured it was way too complicated. It was worth a shot:cool:

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

I already bought the game, couldn't resist!

A couple more comments:

1)I think there needs to be a better correlation between the media doing a story on a player and that player's performance. For instance, there have been several stories on Arroyo, but I get the feeling its only because he has been getting into fights and the game wants me to deal with his personality. The reason I say this is because this is like the third or fourth story on him being lights out and he just hasnt been. His last 3 games he has played 40 minutes total and scored 14 points. Meanwhile Derrick Rose, who has been lights out the entire year, has not had one story on him. Just curious is all.

2) I think what could be neat and helpful is after you have suggested a player work on a part of his game that you get an email after the time period is up with his stats during that time period. That way you can know if its somthing you should continue doing or give up on.

3) a sim to trade deadline button and sim to next series (during playoffs) would be helpful.

4) I won my division with the worst divisional record, yet i was given the 4th seed instead of the 3rd.

5) For the team record screen, I think per game averages should be added for the individual records

Once again, thanks for a great game. My bulls got knocked out in the second round, but im looking forward to the next season!

[Atocep]

4) I won my division with the worst divisional record, yet i was given the 4th seed instead of the 3rd.


NBA playoffs are seeded by record. Division winner is only guaranteed a spot in the playoffs.

[SirFozzie]

Couple requests:

A) Please build something in the game itself so we can change city names and nicknames from there. I was planning on doing a 16-team league starting in 1960 with fantasy team names, but the process to currently do this is a non-starter.

B) Build in "hands-off" mode, where we can sim for a period of time before "jumping in". I like my leagues to have a little history, (I doubt it's possible, but it makes for much more of a immersion factor for me, especially with fantasy draft leagues). It'd also allow long term testing of the game's engine for creating players etcetera

[Icy]

Couple requests:

A) Please build something in the game itself so we can change city names and nicknames from there. I was planning on doing a 16-team league starting in 1960 with fantasy team names, but the process to currently do this is a non-starter.

B) Build in "hands-off" mode, where we can sim for a period of time before "jumping in". I like my leagues to have a little history, (I doubt it's possible, but it makes for much more of a immersion factor for me, especially with fantasy draft leagues). It'd also allow long term testing of the game's engine for creating players etcetera

a) You can edit them directly in the access database, not sure if you tried already and what you are asking is for a way to do it inside the game.

b) You can do this already, when you create your GM, don't assign him to any team. Then login as commish and sim from there. The only problem is that you still need to "watch" the draft, lottery etc and sim stage by stage. I guess you would prefer a button to sim X years without stop, but not sure if possible with current code, Gary will answer better.

[Tim Tellean]

Couple requests:

A) Please build something in the game itself so we can change city names and nicknames from there. I was planning on doing a 16-team league starting in 1960 with fantasy team names, but the process to currently do this is a non-starter.

You can do this from each team info screen or as Ivan suggested.

[Comey]

Hopefully DDSPF will have a league creation screen that allows for customizing to be done there, rather than having to go to multiple screens or an access database. It would allow for fictional creation to be much more smooth and less time-consuming. ; )

[SirFozzie]

You can do this from each team info screen or as Ivan suggested.

That's.. very much less then optimal. If I have to go outside the program to do so, that's a complete non-starter, and to be honest, going to 16-32 different team screens and changing it there isn't much more palatable to me

[DaddyTorgo]

That's.. very much less then optimal. If I have to go outside the program to do so, that's a complete non-starter, and to be honest, going to 16-32 different team screens and changing it there isn't much more palatable to me

Why is it a non-starter? :confused:

Laziness?

[SirFozzie]

I shouldn't have to use programs other than the game itself to make such basic, fundamental changes.

, and for the other part, DT, not laziness, but it saves about 90% of the clicks/time it would take to have everything on one screen rather than needing to go to 16-32 different screens

[DaddyTorgo]

I shouldn't have to use programs other than the game itself to make such basic, fundamental changes.

, and for the other part, DT, not laziness, but it saves about 90% of the clicks/time it would take to have everything on one screen rather than needing to go to 16-32 different screens

Fair enough.

Just curious - wasn't trying to be a ass or anything. :)

[bhsw77]

That's actually an interesting issue and one where public opinion seems to be divided. With other games(some in the same genre) that do the in-game screen for editing team names, etc., you have people annoyed with that who ask why they can't just have a database which is 'much easier to deal with'. Aside from it being just one of those things that is personal preference and difficult to please everyone, I'm interested personally in which way others like -- database/spreadsheet/XML etc. option outside of the game or an in-game screen. There's definitely pros and cons to each.

[SirFozzie]

I'd like to meet some of those people who prefer "exporting a file to access (possibly having to re-export it to Excel), making changes in an external program, saving it, and reimporting back in" to "Click on city name in game, type, click on team name in game, type, hit ok". So I can ask "why do you like things arcane, difficult and complicated?"

[SirFozzie]

Other thing I would like to see, is the option to make the draft banter etcetera saveable to a log file, would be fun to see a "Draft show" for multiplayer leagues.

[bhlloy]

I'd like to meet some of those people who prefer "exporting a file to access (possibly having to re-export it to Excel), making changes in an external program, saving it, and reimporting back in" to "Click on city name in game, type, click on team name in game, type, hit ok". So I can ask "why do you like things arcane, difficult and complicated?"

That's even before you consider the possiblity of data corruption or screwing something up in the file, which was completely infuriating in DDSPB:1. Click in the wrong cell in Access and make something a NULL that wasn't supposed to be and suddenly you have a league file that looks OK but will crash the game every single time. I've literally wasted 60+ hours trying to either create files for online leagues that didn't work or trying to figure out unsuccesfully what is wrong with a given file.

If this is fixed in DDSPB:2 I'll probably pick the game up, but I'm waiting to hear how user-mod friendly it is before the purchase. Seems like a very solid game otherwise and Gary has done a very nice job eliminating the crashes in other areas so I'm sure he managed to nuke these as well.

[Comey]

That's actually an interesting issue and one where public opinion seems to be divided. With other games(some in the same genre) that do the in-game screen for editing team names, etc., you have people annoyed with that who ask why they can't just have a database which is 'much easier to deal with'. Aside from it being just one of those things that is personal preference and difficult to please everyone, I'm interested personally in which way others like -- database/spreadsheet/XML etc. option outside of the game or an in-game screen. There's definitely pros and cons to each.

I want to meet those people. I don't know a single person who prefers a database, and I've been in this community (sim community) ten years, nor have I ever read someone come out with your line of thinking. I don't frequent the Wolverine community as much as I used to (though I'm sure I will be more coming up)....but this is the first I've seen that.

[Gary Gorski]

First off Gary I want to thank you for putting out such a fantastic game. I have yet to buy a game from wolverine but after playing the demo of your latest creation, I don't think I am going to be able to resist much longer. Part of it might have to do with my Chicago Bulls being first place at the All-Star break :D

Also just wanted to point out a neat thing. Carlos Arroyo was buried on my depth chart and started picking fights with Raja Bell on the team. Well it caught my attention and I looked at Arroyos' attributs and I couldn't start him ahead of Bell but I noticed he was definitely better than Hinrich so I started giving Hinrichs minutes to Arroyo and the team went on a ten game winning streak! Looks like Arroyo was right to act out. Hopefully, Kirk continues to be a good trooper :D

A couple of questions:

1) Are there interactions between players on different teams? For instance, are rivalries developed because of free agency or trade fallout a la Shaq and Kobe? Or do players trashtalk before a game which might help motivate or get under the other players skin? Something like Raja Bell and Kobe comes to mind.

2) For the simpler, hard cap salary option, is it possible to take away the individual max contracts so we can get into real bidding wars?

3) This is probably WAY too much to ask for but Do you think its possible to make a custom schedule generator in a patch or is there some way to change how the game makes the schedule? I have always wished the NBA would have more of an imbalanced schedule towards division play. Something like you face each team in your division 13 times for 52 games, conference games twice which would be 20 games, and facing one division outside of your conference twice for 10 games and that adds up to 82. Way too complicated right? I figured it doesn't hurt to ask

Regardless of the answers, I know I will be buying the game. It is a ton of fun and I have to see how my bulls finish off the season.

Thanks for posting that with Arroyo - its nice for others to be able to see the kind of stuff that happens with the relationship/interaction code.

1) Players do not interact with those on other teams but thats a cool suggestion

2) I would say probably not because I could see the AI being exploited here. For example on a guy like Durant - the AI might think he's "worth" $30m a season but right now it has to stop at the max - if there's nothing for it to stop at and the AI pays him $30m he might end up with Durant and a roster of nobodies.

3) Scheduling is extremely difficult so I would say that's not likely to happen.

Thanks for the feedback and glad you took the plunge on the game!

[Gary Gorski]

Couple requests:

A) Please build something in the game itself so we can change city names and nicknames from there. I was planning on doing a 16-team league starting in 1960 with fantasy team names, but the process to currently do this is a non-starter.

B) Build in "hands-off" mode, where we can sim for a period of time before "jumping in". I like my leagues to have a little history, (I doubt it's possible, but it makes for much more of a immersion factor for me, especially with fantasy draft leagues). It'd also allow long term testing of the game's engine for creating players etcetera

If A) means you'll buy the game then I'll work it into league creation somehow.

The code isn't really setup to handle B) because things are run from certain screens as opposed to all in the background - the draft is a good example of this.

So you tell me - if A) is the only thing preventing you from buying the game tell me and I'll add it for the next update.

[Gary Gorski]

That's even before you consider the possiblity of data corruption or screwing something up in the file, which was completely infuriating in DDSPB:1. Click in the wrong cell in Access and make something a NULL that wasn't supposed to be and suddenly you have a league file that looks OK but will crash the game every single time. I've literally wasted 60+ hours trying to either create files for online leagues that didn't work or trying to figure out unsuccesfully what is wrong with a given file.

If this is fixed in DDSPB:2 I'll probably pick the game up, but I'm waiting to hear how user-mod friendly it is before the purchase. Seems like a very solid game otherwise and Gary has done a very nice job eliminating the crashes in other areas so I'm sure he managed to nuke these as well.

Guess it depends on what you want to mod - grab the demo and if you login to the league as a commissioner you can right click on a player on the roster and pull up all of his ratings to edit so that it can be done in game rather than in Access.

[Mota]

If A) means you'll buy the game then I'll work it into league creation somehow.

The code isn't really setup to handle B) because things are run from certain screens as opposed to all in the background - the draft is a good example of this.

So you tell me - if A) is the only thing preventing you from buying the game tell me and I'll add it for the next update.

Wow that's some great customer service from Gary!

Now I have to make my wish list of things that I really want in the game and pretend that I haven't already bought it so that Gary will program it in. :)

[Comey]

Wow that's some great customer service from Gary!


It's what the man does.

[SirFozzie]

If A) means you'll buy the game then I'll work it into league creation somehow.

The code isn't really setup to handle B) because things are run from certain screens as opposed to all in the background - the draft is a good example of this.

So you tell me - if A) is the only thing preventing you from buying the game tell me and I'll add it for the next update.

Already bought it, hope that doesn't prejudice you against adding it :)

btw, I'm getting an error when I can't complete the draft.. known issue or do I need to send a pre-draft save?

[laser]

If A) means you'll buy the game then I'll work it into league creation somehow.

The code isn't really setup to handle B) because things are run from certain screens as opposed to all in the background - the draft is a good example of this.

So you tell me - if A) is the only thing preventing you from buying the game tell me and I'll add it for the next update.

I already bought the game but I would love to see A in there. I play 12 and 16 team fictional leagues and it would be so much easier to be able to make the city and team name changes from one screen.

[bhsw77]

SirFozzie -- only one other person has reported that issue, so it's safe to say a pre-draft file could be useful and appreciated.

[Gary Gorski]

Already bought it, hope that doesn't prejudice you against adding it :)

btw, I'm getting an error when I can't complete the draft.. known issue or do I need to send a pre-draft save?

Oh well in that case see you in two years for DDSPB3 (I kid, I kid). I guess before I start to work on this how much info are we talking here? Do you just want to edit team names or do you want everything that's available from the team info screen (logos, jerseys, home court, arena size etc...)

As for the draft error do you see Da'Sean Butler in the error report code? I believe the one person who reported this had an error code that had him in it and I know that when a player has an apostrophe in his name and the code is reading that name out of a database sometimes the code is a bit funny about it and I'm wondering if this is a variation of that bug.

If it happens every time I'd love the save file because then I can just fire it up and fix it.

[SirFozzie]

I've run it two times. Let me get the season up to that point again.

[SirFozzie]

Oh well in that case see you in two years for DDSPB3 (I kid, I kid). I guess before I start to work on this how much info are we talking here? Do you just want to edit team names or do you want everything that's available from the team info screen (logos, jerseys, home court, arena size etc...)
.
Um.. probably just city and team names would be the two highest priority, logos and jersey as next biggest

[SirFozzie]

File pre-draft: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=JB2YJI17

Error message from the debugger:

See the end of this message for details on invoking
just-in-time (JIT) debugging instead of this dialog box.

************** Exception Text **************
System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object.
at DDSPB2.frmCollegeDraft.34AA1(Object 0AAAA, EventArgs 1AAAA)
at System.Windows.Forms.Control.OnClick(EventArgs e)
at System.Windows.Forms.Button.OnClick(EventArgs e)
at System.Windows.Forms.Button.WndProc(Message& m)
at System.Windows.Forms.Control.ControlNativeWindow.OnMessage(Message& m)
at System.Windows.Forms.Control.ControlNativeWindow.WndProc(Message& m)
at System.Windows.Forms.NativeWindow.Callback(IntPtr hWnd, Int32 msg, IntPtr wparam, IntPtr lparam)


************** Loaded Assemblies **************
mscorlib
Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0
Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.4952 (win7RTMGDR.050727-4900)
CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/Microsoft.NET/Framework/v2.0.50727/mscorlib.dll
----------------------------------------
DDSPB2
Assembly Version: 1.0.0.0
Win32 Version: 1.0.0.0
CodeBase: file:///C:/Wolverine%20Studios/DDSPB2/DDSPB2.exe
----------------------------------------
Microsoft.VisualBasic
Assembly Version: 8.0.0.0
Win32 Version: 8.0.50727.4927 (NetFXspW7.050727-4900)
CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/Microsoft.VisualBasic/8.0.0.0__b03f5f7f11d50a3a/Microsoft.VisualBasic.dll
----------------------------------------
System
Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0
Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.4927 (NetFXspW7.050727-4900)
CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System/2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.dll
----------------------------------------
System.Windows.Forms
Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0
Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.4927 (NetFXspW7.050727-4900)
CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Windows.Forms/2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.Windows.Forms.dll
----------------------------------------
System.Drawing
Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0
Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.4927 (NetFXspW7.050727-4900)
CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Drawing/2.0.0.0__b03f5f7f11d50a3a/System.Drawing.dll
----------------------------------------
System.Runtime.Remoting
Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0
Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.4927 (NetFXspW7.050727-4900)
CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Runtime.Remoting/2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.Runtime.Remoting.dll
----------------------------------------
dao
Assembly Version: 10.0.4504.0
Win32 Version: 10.0.4504
CodeBase: file:///C:/Wolverine%20Studios/DDSPB2/dao.DLL
----------------------------------------
System.Xml
Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0
Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.4927 (NetFXspW7.050727-4900)
CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Xml/2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.Xml.dll
----------------------------------------
System.Data
Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0
Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.4927 (NetFXspW7.050727-4900)
CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_32/System.Data/2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.Data.dll
----------------------------------------
Interop.ESELLERATECONTROL365Lib
Assembly Version: 1.0.0.0
Win32 Version: 1.0.0.0
CodeBase: file:///C:/Wolverine%20Studios/DDSPB2/Interop.ESELLERATECONTROL365Lib.DLL
----------------------------------------

************** JIT Debugging **************
To enable just-in-time (JIT) debugging, the .config file for this
application or computer (machine.config) must have the
jitDebugging value set in the system.windows.forms section.
The application must also be compiled with debugging
enabled.

For example:

<configuration>
<system.windows.forms jitDebugging="true" />
</configuration>

When JIT debugging is enabled, any unhandled exception
will be sent to the JIT debugger registered on the computer
rather than be handled by this dialog box.

[Gary Gorski]

Ah it has to do with using a smaller league - it will be fixed in the 1.1 update

[SirFozzie]

Cool to hear, Gary :)

[SirFozzie]

While I wait for the smaller leagues fix in 1.1, I created a real team league (I took Madrid, so I could play without stepping on the NBA itself)

Signings:

NY resigned David Lee to a 6/$104 deal, first deal of the off season on 7/21

The next day, all unholy hell broke loose.

In the warmups:

Shaq signed with Boston for $5.9 million
Bobby Simmons signed with Washington, $1.1 million
Milwaukee signed John Salmons 4/33 (compared to the 5/39 he got in RL, so at least close).

In the dual main event:
Miami resigned D-Wade (5/95)
New Jersey signed Lebron (6/115)

More signings next post.

[DaddyTorgo]

Gary's customer service is like...second to none.