NFL Week 6 Discussion Thread: Brett Favre This, Brett Favre That. [Archive]

Sun Tzu

10-12-2010, 11:11 PM

Excerpts from that book...

http://www.jmu.edu/bethechange/people/images/haley.jpg

* At a team meeting, Haley got the attention of Scott Case and when Case looked over at Haley he was faced with “Haley’s erect penis stretched across the desk.”
* To quote Pearlman: “Haley would stroll up to an unsuspecting (49er) teammate, whip out his phallus, and repeatedly stroke it in his face. Players initially laughed it off…”
* Haley, ever the prankster, cut a hole in the roof of teammate Tim Harris’ car, got on top, and pissed inside.
* Haley, on his way from the bathroom to a team meeting, pulled down his pants, wiped his ass, and then threw his shit-stained toilet paper at 49ers coach John Marshall.
* Addressing attempts by coaches and staff to end Haley’s abuse, Pearlman mentions, “Haley refused to stop. He would jerk off in the locker room, in the trainer’s room. He’d wrap his hand around his penis, turn toward a Joe Montana or John Taylor, and bellow, ‘You know you wanna suck this!’” He would then proceed to graphically talk about other player’s wives and bring himself to orgasm.
* Of course, I’m sure you’re not shocked to find out at this point that Haley was also a homophobic prick, as, in addition to greeting a new teammate once with simply, “You’re from California? You must be a fucking faggot.” He also once berated Steve Young with the following tirade after a loss: “I could have fucking won that game in my sleep! You’re a motherfucking pussy faggot quarterback! A motherfucking pussy faggot quarterback with no balls!”

Sun Tzu

10-12-2010, 11:13 PM

Now, what you should do is, re-read all of those excerpts, but replace "Charles Haley" with "Brett Favre"

Awesome.

*edit* Picture added for mental image...

Swaggs

10-13-2010, 10:32 AM

I wonder if Ben Roethlisberger has thanked Brett Favre for taking all the heat this week.

Suburban Rhythm

10-13-2010, 10:40 AM

I wonder if Ben Roethlisberger has thanked Brett Favre for taking all the heat this week.

He probably thought of sending Favre a text, but was afraid of what he might get back.

albionmoonlight

10-13-2010, 10:42 AM

He probably thought of sending Favre a text, but was afraid of what he might get back.

LOL

Mustang

10-13-2010, 10:43 AM

You forgot to mention that his other team faces the Eagles.

Suburban Rhythm

10-13-2010, 02:31 PM

Browns and Eagles swap RBs.

Mike Bell to Cleveland, Jerome Harrison to Philly.

Seems like alot more trades this deadline than past years.

Thomkal

10-13-2010, 06:49 PM

Looks like Shawne Merriman's days with San Diego are over. He's been put on some kind of reserve-minor injury list where he has to be released within 6 weeks. Once released and healthy he can play for any other team.

Greyroofoo

10-14-2010, 03:13 AM

And the week just gets better for Favre! (Supposedly)

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EagleFan

10-14-2010, 04:36 AM

That's funny.... Don't get the whole not safe for work part though (how it's posted in youtube)

EagleFan

10-14-2010, 04:39 AM

He probably thought of sending Favre a text, but was afraid of what he might get back.

lol

I heard there is rumor that Ben just violated another woman, this time right in Pittsburgh.....

Some whiney chick named Crosby....

Suburban Rhythm

10-14-2010, 06:16 AM

lol

I heard there is rumor that Ben just violated another woman, this time right in Pittsburgh.....

Some whiney chick named Crosby....

Find that totally impossible. Crosby is probably in bed by 9, when Ben is just heading out for the night.

Ksyrup

10-14-2010, 06:44 AM

So does anyone think that Favre's elbow tendonitis, while probably a real injury, is going to serve the useful purpose of being the reason he sits out a game within the next 2-3 weeks, so that when he's suspended by the league for the off-field stuff a month or so from now, his consecutive game streak won't have been ended by his penis, but by a real injury?

Something tells me that Favre may be hurting, but he's going to take the easy out to voluntarily end his streak by "injury" so that, when his career is recounted, there won't be a sentence in there about how he played nearly 300 consecutive games, only to have that streak ended by a league suspension for sexual harrassment.

Passacaglia

10-14-2010, 06:47 AM

That's a much better theory than the one I heard about it being a faked injury that would serve as a "secret suspension"

Ksyrup

10-14-2010, 06:50 AM

Ah, the old Michael Jordan theory, eh?

wade moore

10-14-2010, 07:08 AM

So does anyone think that Favre's elbow tendonitis, while probably a real injury, is going to serve the useful purpose of being the reason he sits out a game within the next 2-3 weeks, so that when he's suspended by the league for the off-field stuff a month or so from now, his consecutive game streak won't have been ended by his penis, but by a real injury?

Something tells me that Favre may be hurting, but he's going to take the easy out to voluntarily end his streak by "injury" so that, when his career is recounted, there won't be a sentence in their about how he played nearly 300 consecutive games, only to have that streak ended by a league suspension for sexual harrassment.

I said the exact same thing to one of my friends last night actually. I completely believe that this is what is going on.

Mustang

10-14-2010, 09:58 AM

I said the exact same thing to one of my friends last night actually. I completely believe that this is what is going on.

There is a zero percent chance that Favre's streak ends because of a cock shot. He loves to do things on his own terms so, he will be out for a game because of injury before anything could remotely come up due to the other stuff.

Logan

10-14-2010, 10:13 AM

I think an injury break complete with an announcement of his pending, FINAL retirement after the season will be all we hear about this.

Jughead Spock

10-14-2010, 10:17 AM

his consecutive game streak won't have been ended by his penis, but by a real injury?

I'd much prefer the former if I were Favre. It's almost Chuck Norris-ian. The only thing that can stop Brett Favre from playing, is Brett Favre's cock.

Ronnie Dobbs2

10-14-2010, 02:04 PM

I would say the only thing that can stop Brett Favre from playing is a 1-4 start.

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JPhillips

10-14-2010, 02:48 PM

WTF stat from Cincy Jungle.

The Bengals have faced 3rd and 2 or less twenty times this season. Cedric Benson has only carried the ball on four of those plays.

EagleFan

10-14-2010, 03:22 PM

Can Favre please just go away.... and can he take TOcho with him...

molson

10-14-2010, 05:11 PM

Passacaglia

10-14-2010, 06:10 PM

Seriously. It's got to be awkward for those guys.

molson

10-14-2010, 06:22 PM

Seriously. It's got to be awkward for those guys.

I imagine Mankins sitting in full uniform on the bench reading John Grisham novels during games.

Or perhaps Belichick using him as a TE/FB on goal line formations.

lungs

10-14-2010, 08:25 PM

That's my Wrangler story. What's yours?

NorvTurnerOverdrive

10-17-2010, 11:22 AM

watching nfl countdown. just said the raiders called every team in the league and said every player on their roster is available. lulz

M GO BLUE!!!

10-17-2010, 11:38 AM

I love this whole thing about Logan Mankins and Vincent Jackson just "reporting" more than halfway into the season to get their credit for year towards free agency

Especially Mankins, considering the way Belichick likes to do business. There's a lot of entertainment potential there.

Give the team the day off on that day, but don't tell these guys!

I've wondered what to do in that case if running the team. You can't change their position to punter, so do you banish them to being inactive or throw them into the fray, forcing them to take every single snap in practice and games?

---------------

For today... I had been looking forward to watching my first Lions game on the tele instead of the computer. Cablevision is in a dispute with Fox so there is no Fox 5 on my cable. Damn, damn, damn! :rant:

Coffee Warlord

10-17-2010, 12:07 PM

Nice start to the Bears game. Forte in for 6 on the opening drive.

edit: Of course, they give it right back, letting Seattle march straight down.

M GO BLUE!!!

10-17-2010, 12:11 PM

THANK YOU, MR. DODGE!

Matthean

10-17-2010, 12:34 PM

watching nfl countdown. just said the raiders called every team in the league and said every player on their roster is available. lulz

Sure, if you are offering the right price. I doubt somebody like McClain is going to be cheap.

M GO BLUE!!!

10-17-2010, 01:19 PM

Drew Stanton in for the Lions

Bearcat729

10-17-2010, 01:19 PM

I think Harrison is going to get to take a week or two off with these helmet to helmet hits against Cleveland.

Thomkal

10-17-2010, 01:21 PM

Poor Colt McCoy-loses both Josh Cribbs and now maybe Massequoi to injury-both potential concussions it looks like. Now they can't run the Wildcat, meaning he has to be in there the whole game now against the Pittsburgh defense who's already sacked him a couple times. Amazing its only 7-3 Pit at the half.

CU Tiger

10-17-2010, 01:25 PM

What the hell is up with Phil Simms.
He is doing one of the most nerve grating and frankly strange jobs of commentary I've ever heard. And this from a guy I have never even noticed when he calls games. But today its like he is explaining every play like he is talking to gramma who has never seen football, and every potential rule he is over analyzing and trying to sound like he is the only educated guy in the room...

It is just weird....he sounds exactly like the guy who used to sit behind us at Clemson games until he mercifully changed season tickets this year.

Comey

10-17-2010, 01:33 PM

Wow, huge at least six-point turnaround in Philly...probably 10-point turnaround, hypothetical 14-point turnaround (Eagles driving, pass intercepted on deflection, penalty that should have been offset but wasn't, and now Atlanta driving to score).

Coffee Warlord

10-17-2010, 01:54 PM

And....the Bears O-Line of Doom allows yet another totally untouched guy to slam down Cutler, this time for the safety.

MJ4H

10-17-2010, 01:55 PM

It's nice to be able to watch Chiefs football again. You know, with a straight face.

Dutch

10-17-2010, 01:58 PM

Desean Jackson got crushed.

DaddyTorgo

10-17-2010, 02:05 PM

Whoops. I thought the Pats game was on at 4pm, not 1pm. LOL

Big Fo

10-17-2010, 02:09 PM

I can't believe the Dolphins lost that challenge. Ronnie Brown was at least a yard past the first down marker when he went down, we got fucked on the spot and then somehow the call was upheld.

Dr. Sak

10-17-2010, 02:09 PM

Didn't take long for the stupid yinzers who claimed that Ben was such a pig and they won't cheer for him...to cheer for him.

bronconick

10-17-2010, 02:11 PM

Shawn Hill= Broken forearm

Drew Stanton in for Detroit. Why Stanton is still on a NFL roster is beyond me.

EagleFan

10-17-2010, 02:14 PM

Kolb to Maclin for the homerun ball!!!!

Honolulu_Blue

10-17-2010, 02:17 PM

Shawn Hill= Broken forearm

Drew Stanton in for Detroit. Why Stanton is still on a NFL roster is beyond me.

Stanton is not great, but he's not appreciably worse than most other #3's (or some #2's) currently in the league.

Warhammer

10-17-2010, 02:20 PM

Every week this year, I have left a guy who has absolutely exploded on the bench of my fantasy team. I've done it with Macklin twice (other WRs are Austin, Jennings, and A. Johnson, TO) and Forte twice (A. Foster, R. Grant, R. Rice, L McCoy other RBs).

M GO BLUE!!!

10-17-2010, 02:21 PM

Stanton is not great, but he's not appreciably worse than most other #3's (or some #2's) currently in the league.

I did not see that TD coming. :D

bronconick

10-17-2010, 02:23 PM

I did not see that TD coming. :D

You could say that again.

DaddyTorgo

10-17-2010, 02:25 PM

Welker only has 3 catches? I'm fucked.

M GO BLUE!!!

10-17-2010, 02:32 PM

You could say that again.

I did not see that TD coming. :D

bulletsponge

10-17-2010, 02:35 PM

KC is just running over houston

M GO BLUE!!!

10-17-2010, 02:37 PM

Note to Drew Dtanton: WR's catch with hands, not feet.

SackAttack

10-17-2010, 02:42 PM

The Packers could win the Super Bowl if they could just petition the league to only count the first quarter of games.

Without a running game, though, and without any evident desire to get one on the part of Ted Thompson, I'm predicting an 8-8 or 9-7 season as their best-case outcome at this point.

Coffee Warlord

10-17-2010, 02:45 PM

2 score game, 8 minutes left, 4th & a half yard...punt?

Hookay Lovie.

DaddyTorgo

10-17-2010, 02:49 PM

Brady looks to have his chemistry with Branch back real good. Awesome.

Ronnie Dobbs2

10-17-2010, 02:59 PM

Beautiful return by Welker. Pats will have a shot.

Swaggs

10-17-2010, 03:02 PM

Roethlisberger made a handful of overthrows, but looked pretty solid in his return.

Even though his numbers weren't outstanding, I was pretty impressed with Colt McCoy. Cribbs got hurt pretty early and I am sure that he was a big part of the Browns' gameplan, but McCoy took a beating and hung in there pretty well. Made a couple of very nice, long sideline passes. The best thing for his career would be to not win a whole lot this season, so that Mangini gets fired and Holmgren returns to the field to work with him.

Bearcat729

10-17-2010, 03:04 PM

So i'd like to see what Colt McCoy could do with more weapons on offense.

Dr. Sak

10-17-2010, 03:04 PM

KC got some bad luck on a (bad) DPI call that extended Houston's drive. The Texans scored and took the lead late.

M GO BLUE!!!

10-17-2010, 03:07 PM

Drew Stanton hurt. Is that Bob Gagliano warming up?

kingfc22

10-17-2010, 03:09 PM

Oh Niners. Please win this game at least.

kingfc22

10-17-2010, 03:12 PM

Memo to Singletary - You can't challenge forward progress being stopped.

Can we get a head coach who is not a complete MORON!!!

M GO BLUE!!!

10-17-2010, 03:13 PM

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

:(

Well, at least it is entertaining to watch the Lions again.

Antmeister

10-17-2010, 03:28 PM

Unbelievable...the Rams.....the freaking Rams, who lost to Detroit 44-6, beat down the Chargers. Multiple sacks, couldn't stop the run. Now they are 0-4 on the road against teams that weren't really that good. I can't even imagine what will happen when they actually face a good defense with average offense.

Big Fo

10-17-2010, 03:29 PM

Miami wins in overtime, that was harder than it probably should have been. I'm glad that the awful spot on the Ronnie Brown run didn't cost us the win.

Cameron Wake is quite good.

Dan Henning often frustrates me with his playcalling but that play for the Fasano TD worked perfectly.

Antmeister

10-17-2010, 03:34 PM

Ugh and the next 3 teams are NE, TEN, and HOU. I seriously hope that Antonio Gates doesn't have a serious injury because the Rivers will end up on his back a lot.

Ronnie Dobbs2

10-17-2010, 03:43 PM

He won't have to worry about that against NE.

SirFozzie

10-17-2010, 03:54 PM

I swear, Belichick can take any action and come out smelling like roses.. Branch with like eight 4th quarter/OT receptions.

Alan T

10-17-2010, 03:56 PM

I am surprised that there wern't any comments in this thread about the headhunting that New England's Merriweather (or whatever the defensive player's name is) was doing. Multiple plays where he was going straight for the heads of opposing receivers is going to likely get him in trouble with the league after finally getting caught.

I'm all for hard hitting, but trying to knock people's heads off is a bit much.

In other news, for the late game, I'm stuck with Dallas vs Minnesota... ugh. Talk about two teams that I really don't have any interest rooting for. Maybe this is a sign that I really should spend some time outside getting some yard work done today.

Antmeister

10-17-2010, 04:00 PM

He won't have to worry about that against NE.

Well that's what I said before facing the Rams and 7 sacks later, I have no doubt that the Chargers will have them looking like Super Bowl contenders again.

Ronnie Dobbs2

10-17-2010, 04:01 PM

I don't think Meriweather will be in NE much longer. He's already been benched this season, wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't start next week either. He's like a Roy Williams without the small period of productivity that Williams had.

SnowMan

10-17-2010, 04:03 PM

Someday people will learn to not kick to Hester.

kingfc22

10-17-2010, 04:15 PM

Damn the Niners are absolutely pathetic this year. Singletary clearly has no idea what the hell is going on and this team makes ZERO in-game adjustments each week.

Is it January yet? Can't wait for this season to end.

kingfc22

10-17-2010, 04:30 PM

And the spread offense yields the Niners points again. Yet they coaching staff refuses to use it on a regular basis. F'N Ridiculous!

Matthean

10-17-2010, 04:41 PM

In other news, for the late game, I'm stuck with Dallas vs Minnesota... ugh. Talk about two teams that I really don't have any interest rooting for. Maybe this is a sign that I really should spend some time outside getting some yard work done today.

I think the aftermath for whoever loses will be more entertaining than the game. Jerry Jones dealing with a 1-4 team, or Moss and Favre on a 1-4 team.

bulletsponge

10-17-2010, 04:46 PM

harvin return the 2nd half with a kr td

kingfc22

10-17-2010, 05:18 PM

Horrible call the by officials in the OAK/SF game. Apparently a bad pass is now intentional grounding.

Dr. Sak

10-17-2010, 05:19 PM

Horrible call the by officials in the OAK/SF game. Apparently a bad pass is now intentional grounding.

Was his arm hit? Can you explain a bit more?

EagleFan

10-17-2010, 05:20 PM

Horrible call the by officials in the OAK/SF game. Apparently a bad pass is now intentional grounding.

I have an odd feeling that I read that somewhere before... :)

EagleFan

10-17-2010, 05:25 PM

So what's the over/under on how much time left in the game when Favre makes the fatal mistake?

kingfc22

10-17-2010, 05:25 PM

Was his arm hit? Can you explain a bit more?

Alex Smith was in the pocket under no pressure and just airmailed a throw to the flat where his WR was standing. The ball sailed about 8 feet over his head and landed out of bounds.

Refs called it intentional grounding even though there was no pass rush or eminent sack in sight.

It was simply a crappy QB throwing a very poor pass.

kingfc22

10-17-2010, 05:26 PM

I have an odd feeling that I read that somewhere before... :)

:D

Dr. Sak

10-17-2010, 05:33 PM

Alex Smith was in the pocket under no pressure and just airmailed a throw to the flat where his WR was standing. The ball sailed about 8 feet over his head and landed out of bounds.

Refs called it intentional grounding even though there was no pass rush or eminent sack in sight.

It was simply a crappy QB throwing a very poor pass.

Lately the NFL has been trying to crack down on plays like this and not give the QB the benefit of the doubt. There is this example and there is the example of where a QB throws the ball towards the pylon and the WR runs the route towards the post. The NFL wants that called as grounding.

They're told not to assume a bad pass unless the QB is pressure or gets hit. And since DPI is waived off because a pass can be uncatchable, the same sort of philosphy is used for intentional grounding. If the pass was "catchable" the grounding would not have been called. But how can you say it isn't grounding when the WR had no chance of catching the ball unless he was 2 feet taller?

I didn't see the play, I am just telling you what they are being instructed to do FWIW

miami_fan

10-17-2010, 05:41 PM

The Cowboys' celebration after the Dez Bryant TD was very "professional"

kingfc22

10-17-2010, 05:44 PM

Lately the NFL has been trying to crack down on plays like this and not give the QB the benefit of the doubt. There is this example and there is the example of where a QB throws the ball towards the pylon and the WR runs the route towards the post. The NFL wants that called as grounding.

They're told not to assume a bad pass unless the QB is pressure or gets hit. And since DPI is waived off because a pass can be uncatchable, the same sort of philosphy is used for intentional grounding. If the pass was "catchable" the grounding would not have been called. But how can you say it isn't grounding when the WR had no chance of catching the ball unless he was 2 feet taller?

I didn't see the play, I am just telling you what they are being instructed to do FWIW

Interesting.

miami_fan

10-17-2010, 05:45 PM

Speaking of celebrations, is there an exception in the rule for going to the ground to celebrate that covers why Adrian Peterson was not flagged after his TD?

kingfc22

10-17-2010, 05:57 PM

EagleFan

10-17-2010, 05:58 PM

Thought that was Favre's chance to throw the game changing pick...

kingfc22

10-17-2010, 06:02 PM

The Jets just got this game handed to them.

Well after second look, I guess it should have been a face mask call.

stevew

10-17-2010, 06:04 PM

LOL at Dez Bryant getting teabagged by like 4 dudes.

kingfc22

10-17-2010, 06:10 PM

Niners finally get a win and have a favorable schedule ahead.

If only Singletary would let go of his ground and pound mentality which will keep this team from reaching it's potential on offense.

Dr. Sak

10-17-2010, 06:32 PM

What's the difference when a QB spikes the ball into the turf on a busted screen play. Sure the RB is in the area, but he's not going to catch it. Shouldn't the same theory apply to this type of play as well?

I agree but usually for those plays the quarterback is under pressure where as the play you described seemed as if he wasn't.

MizzouRah

10-17-2010, 06:33 PM

Nice game by the Rams.. what a freaky season so far, but I'll take 3-3 after 6 games.

Thomkal

10-17-2010, 06:59 PM

The Cowboys' celebration after the Dez Bryant TD was very "professional"

Sorry if this was mentioned earlier in the thread. But Charlie Casserly on CBS's pregame/recap show said that Dallas got or would be getting the dreaded "letter" from the NFL office apologizing for the officials making the incorrect call on that celebration penalty in the previous game.

Warhammer

10-17-2010, 07:32 PM

Nice game by the Rams.. what a freaky season so far, but I'll take 3-3 after 6 games.

Amen! There is light at the end of the tunnel. Imagine what they could do with Bradford with a season or two of experience under his belt and a couple of solid targets for him.

stevew

10-17-2010, 07:36 PM

Odd, IND challenging an interception to gain forward yardage. It was fumbled.

Greyroofoo

10-17-2010, 07:44 PM

Odd, IND challenging an interception to gain forward yardage. It was fumbled.

Yeah, stupid Calvin Johnson rule

Greyroofoo

10-17-2010, 07:44 PM

Nice to see Garçon back in the lineup! :)

Greyroofoo

10-17-2010, 07:54 PM

Yeah, stupid Calvin Johnson rule

dola, I wonder what Peyton was thinking about the challenge, with a pick potentially being added to his record :p

BishopMVP

10-17-2010, 08:41 PM

Play of the week from Garcon.

Scarecrow

10-17-2010, 08:44 PM

KC got some bad luck on a (bad) DPI call that extended Houston's drive. The Texans scored and took the lead late.

Bad????

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Honolulu_Blue

10-17-2010, 09:12 PM

Wow. That was horrible.

Abe Sargent

10-17-2010, 09:34 PM

Let's go Redskins!!!

aran

10-17-2010, 09:53 PM

k0ruptr

10-17-2010, 10:20 PM

They really arn't that bad of a team anymore

Dr. Sak

10-17-2010, 10:20 PM

Re: Intentional grounding: I thought that the point of IG was to prevent QBs from spiking the ball (or just launching it out of bounds) to avoid obvious sacks. Why would they make it a penalty for being inaccurate/miscommunicating with your receivers?

How are the officials to know if the WR runs the wrong route? If the ball is thrown before the break of the route there's nothing...but after then you have intentional grounding.

Abe Sargent

10-17-2010, 10:24 PM

How are the officials to know if the WR runs the wrong route? If the ball is thrown before the break of the route there's nothing...but after then you have intentional grounding.

I think his point is more when there's no pressure and you've got a bad route issue. Then, the rule no longer is doing what it is supposed to be doing. Calling it then would hurt the team for no good reason.

Dr. Sak

10-17-2010, 10:28 PM

I think his point is more when there's no pressure and you've got a bad route issue. Then, the rule no longer is doing what it is supposed to be doing. Calling it then would hurt the team for no good reason.

Again it depends on when the route is broke in respect to the ball being thrown. With the QB in the pocket there are restrictions that he has to get it in the vicinity of a WR. If you got a guy running a clear post and the ball is thrown to the pylon and no one is there...that violates the rules and by rule is intentional grounding.

If he is out of the pocket, that's fine because the only restriction is that the QB has to get the ball (near) the LOS.

Greyroofoo

10-17-2010, 10:54 PM

Nice to see Shanahan can still pull a RB out of his ass at any time.

Portis, Johnson, and Parker in camp = Ryan Torrain and Keiland Williams in week 6.

Skins entered the game 6th in turnover ratio and dropped 2 INTs and missed a fumble recovery in the 1st half. Simply find a way to get another and this game can be had.

Note that the Colts Defense usually finds a way of making a practice squad player look like a pro-bowler :banghead:

jbergey22

10-17-2010, 11:54 PM

So what's the over/under on how much time left in the game when Favre makes the fatal mistake?

Must be a down year for the Eagles when you spend more of your day worrying about Favre than you do celebrating a big Eagles win.

spleen1015

10-18-2010, 08:23 AM

Waaaaaaaaaaay too many concussions IMO.

Am I crazy or are we seeing a lot more than normal this year? It is definitely not good.

JPhillips

10-18-2010, 08:31 AM

Re: Intentional grounding: I thought that the point of IG was to prevent QBs from spiking the ball (or just launching it out of bounds) to avoid obvious sacks. Why would they make it a penalty for being inaccurate/miscommunicating with your receivers?

I didn't see the play, but here's the rule.

Intentional Grounding of Forward Pass

Intentional grounding of a forward pass is a foul: loss of down and 10 yards from previous spot if passer is in the field of play or loss of down at the spot of the foul if it occurs more than 10 yards behind the line or safety if passer is in his own end zone when ball is released.

Intentional grounding will be called when a passer, facing an imminent loss of yardage due to pressure from the defense, throws a forward pass without a realistic chance of completion.

Intentional grounding will not be called when a passer, while out of the pocket and facing an imminent loss of yardage, throws a pass that lands at or beyond the line of scrimmage, even if no offensive player(s) have a realistic chance to catch the ball (including if the ball lands out of bounds over the sideline or end line).

Suburban Rhythm

10-18-2010, 08:44 AM

Again it depends on when the route is broke in respect to the ball being thrown. With the QB in the pocket there are restrictions that he has to get it in the vicinity of a WR. If you got a guy running a clear post and the ball is thrown to the pylon and no one is there...that violates the rules and by rule is intentional grounding.

If he is out of the pocket, that's fine because the only restriction is that the QB has to get the ball (near) the LOS.

I am sure I've asked this before, but why is spiking the ball to stop the clock an accepted method?

I mean, the act itself is grounding the ball, intentionally, to get the desired result (stopped clock).

Is it because, per the rule, there is no danger of loss of yardage? Because everything else fits the rule-- no eligible receiver, no realistic chance of a completion, not across the LOS.

BishopMVP

10-18-2010, 09:12 AM

People were talking about the record for pick-sixes thrown last week, and no surprise, it is Favre - Most pick-sixes in NFL history » Pro-football-reference.com blog » Blog Archive (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=7473)

JPhillips

10-18-2010, 09:19 AM

I am sure I've asked this before, but why is spiking the ball to stop the clock an accepted method?

I mean, the act itself is grounding the ball, intentionally, to get the desired result (stopped clock).

Is it because, per the rule, there is no danger of loss of yardage? Because everything else fits the rule-- no eligible receiver, no realistic chance of a completion, not across the LOS.

Yeah, I think this is the key portion of the rule:

facing an imminent loss of yardage due to pressure from the defense

Butter

10-18-2010, 09:43 AM

KC got some bad luck on a (bad) DPI call that extended Houston's drive. The Texans scored and took the lead late.

Bad????

<object width="640" height="385">

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8x0lJhhlB2A?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></object>

Wow. That was horrible.

Except the penalty was declined because he made the catch. So, it really didn't affect the outcome of the game... unless you want to argue Offensive PI.

Logan

10-18-2010, 09:55 AM

I am sure I've asked this before, but why is spiking the ball to stop the clock an accepted method?

I mean, the act itself is grounding the ball, intentionally, to get the desired result (stopped clock).

Is it because, per the rule, there is no danger of loss of yardage? Because everything else fits the rule-- no eligible receiver, no realistic chance of a completion, not across the LOS.

Pretty sure we've talked about this before, and that language was specifically included to allow for the spike to be legit.

Similar to the exception in college where FG holders aren't considered down.

molson

10-18-2010, 10:03 AM

Pretty sure we've talked about this before, and that language was specifically included to allow for the spike to be legit.

Similar to the exception in college where FG holders aren't considered down.

An exception isn't even needed in the NFL - a spike clearly does not involve imminent loss of yardage due to pressure from the defense.

You couldn't drop back to pass, and then spike the ball right as you're about to be sacked, for example, even if the "method" is exactly the same as the normal spike-to-stop-the-clock.

Dr. Sak

10-18-2010, 11:54 AM

From the NCAA rule book (I'm sure the NFL one is similar)

Illegal Forward Pass

ARTICLE 2. A forward pass is illegal:

a. If thrown by a Team A player whose entire body is beyond the neutral
zone when he releases the ball [S35 and S9].
b. If thrown by a Team B player or if thrown by a Team A player after team
possession has changed during the down [S35].
c. If it is the second forward pass by Team A during the same down [S35
and S9].
d. If, to conserve time, the pass is not thrown immediately after the ball is
first controlled after the snap or is thrown after the ball has touched the
ground. If, to conserve time, the pass is thrown where no eligible Team A
player has a reasonable opportunity to catch it (A.R. 7-3-2-II-VIII) [S35
and S9].
e. If thrown from in or behind the neutral zone after a ball carrier in
possession of the ball has gone beyond the neutral zone [S35 and S9].
PENALTY—Five yards from the spot of the foul; also loss of down if by
Team A before team possession changes during a scrimmage
down (A.R. 3-4-3-IV and A.R. 7-3-2-II) [S35 and S9].
f. If, to save loss of yardage, a forward pass is thrown where no eligible
Team A player has a reasonable opportunity to catch it. When in
question, the Team A player has a reasonable opportunity to catch the
pass (A.R. 7-3-2-I) [S36 and S9].
[Exception: It is not a foul when the passer, who is or has been outside
the tackle box, throws the ball so that it crosses or lands beyond the neutral
zone or neutral zone extended (Rule 2-19-3) (A.R. 7-3-2-IX)].
PENALTY—Loss of down at the spot of the foul [S36 and S9].

cartman

10-18-2010, 12:14 PM

Yeah, but an illegal forward pass is a distinct and separate infraction from intentional grounding.

stevew

10-18-2010, 01:11 PM

Didn't Eli get an intentional grounding once for faking the spike, then double clutching and doing it?

Dr. Sak

10-18-2010, 01:44 PM

Yeah, but an illegal forward pass is a distinct and separate infraction from intentional grounding.

Disagree...and so does the rule book. The intentional grounding is lumped under the sections for Illegal forward pass in both the Rules up front and the ARs in the back. From one of the AR's in the book...

SECTION 3. Forward Pass

Illegal Forward Pass—ARTICLE 2

Approved Ruling 7-3-2
I. Anytime during the game, quarterback A10, who is not outside the
tackle box and is attempting to save yardage, intentionally throws
a desperation forward pass that falls incomplete where no eligible
Team A player has a reasonable opportunity to catch it. RULING:
Intentional grounding. Penalty—Loss of down at the spot of the foul.
The clock starts on the snap (Rule 3-3-2-d-4).

Suburban Rhythm

10-18-2010, 02:05 PM

So then I am going to ask again.

Why is the spike allowed?

MikeVic

10-18-2010, 02:08 PM

So then I am going to ask again.

Why is the spike allowed?

The thing Dr.Sak posted says "attempting to save yardage" so I'm guessing a spike doesn't fall under that?

cartman

10-18-2010, 02:08 PM

Suburban Rhythm

10-18-2010, 02:12 PM

The thing Dr.Sak posted says "attempting to save yardage" so I'm guessing a spike doesn't fall under that?

Agree there, but the earlier one (NCAA) says attempt to save time.

stevew

10-18-2010, 02:49 PM

I hate to say it, but James Harrison needs to calm the fuck down. He gave out two concussions yesterday that didn't have to happen.

Suburban Rhythm

10-18-2010, 02:53 PM

I hate to say it, but James Harrison needs to calm the fuck down. He gave out two concussions yesterday that didn't have to happen.

Massaquoi hits is being reviewed by NFL, so he'll see a fine for that.

MikeVic

10-18-2010, 02:57 PM

No, Harrison needs to keep the intensity up. Yeah don't use your helmet, but I thought that was accidental.

And look at the headline of this article:
James Harrison of Pittsburgh Steelers says he's out to hurt players - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5699976)

Then see this in the article:

Harrison said he doesn't want to put any player out of a game or jeopardize his career.

So he's just like every other NFL player. Nice headline idiots.

stevew

10-18-2010, 02:57 PM

There were multiple ways to take Cribbs down too.

spleen1015

10-18-2010, 02:58 PM

They need to start suspending people for this stuff before someone actually gets killed by one of these hits.

MikeVic

10-18-2010, 02:59 PM

This isn't a crazy D because they lightly tackle opponents.

MikeVic

10-18-2010, 03:00 PM

It's football, there are going to be hard hits, and I'd argue that's a big reason it's a successful sport.

Groundhog

10-18-2010, 05:24 PM

Kolb or Vick... Kolb or Vick... I bet there are a lot of teams that wish they had that problem. Sure beats "McCoy or Delhomme... McCoy or Delhomme..."

Thomkal

10-18-2010, 06:45 PM

Kolb or Vick... Kolb or Vick... I bet there are a lot of teams that wish they had that problem. Sure beats "McCoy or Delhomme... McCoy or Delhomme..."

Or Carolina who has decided to go back to Matt Moore. If they don't beat SF this week at home, they may go winless.

Bearcat729

10-18-2010, 07:04 PM

Kolb or Vick... Kolb or Vick... I bet there are a lot of teams that wish they had that problem. Sure beats "McCoy or Delhomme... McCoy or Delhomme..."

I'm sure if the Eagles had Massaquoi and Robiskie rather than Jackson and Maclin then it wouldn't matter who they started at QB.

miami_fan

10-18-2010, 07:17 PM

Waaaaaaaaaaay too many concussions IMO.

Am I crazy or are we seeing a lot more than normal this year? It is definitely not good.

It may have something to do with all of the concussion rules that have been put into place this year. There is definitely a greater emphasis on keeping players out of the game if their "bell is rung."

This 18 game season is looking better and better all the time:rolleyes:

miami_fan

10-18-2010, 07:35 PM

They need to start suspending people for this stuff before someone actually gets killed by one of these hits.

As long as they suspend offensive and defensive players who deliver these types of hits.

Danny

10-18-2010, 07:36 PM

Some people complain about the pussification of the sport with all of these rules, but players these days are so much bigger, stronger and faster than they were years ago. I have to imagine that leads to bigger hits.

Ronnie Dobbs2

10-18-2010, 07:38 PM

I wonder if the "this is the appeal" crowd will feel the same once someone dies on the field.

Dr. Sak

10-18-2010, 08:24 PM

But the calls can't be made interchangeably. There are scenarios where you call an illegal forward pass, and other scenarios defined where you call intentional grounding. Those scenarios are definitely separate and distinct.

Plus, with the AR you put, it specifically states "who is not outside the tackle box and is attempting to save yardage". So if there is no reason to say at the time of the throw that the QB was about to lose yardage, the rule states he can throw the ball anywhere he can fling it.

But intentional grounding is defined in the section of illegal forward passes. If you look in the Index in the back of the rule book you will find no mention of "Intentional Grounding" however if you look at Illegal Pass it will take you to the section (mentioned above) where intentional grounding is defined under illegal forward passes. I understand where you are saying that there are two different penalties with different assessments, but still both are defined under illegal forward passes. So in a way we both are correct :)

In high school you can ground the ball only from a direct hand to hand snap, where as in college you can take a snap from shotgun formation and ground it immediately. This rule was put in place because years ago teams would just snap the ball then throw it sideways over a WR head to ground it.

I don't have the PDF open but if you get a chance read AR 7-3-2 II-VII. There are plays there where Illegal Forward pass is called when it could be intentional grounding. Pretty interesting.

DaddyTorgo

10-18-2010, 08:27 PM

I wonder if the "this is the appeal" crowd will feel the same once someone dies on the field. +1

Swaggs

10-18-2010, 09:00 PM

If they go to an 18-game season, I hope they increase active roster sizes, too.

Abe Sargent

10-18-2010, 09:00 PM

My God, the Trent Edwards era may be about to begin in Jacksonville :(

Abe Sargent

10-18-2010, 09:01 PM

Please, don;t have Edwards do well. Otherwise, we may hold off getting a new QB while we try him out for a year or two. Ugh.

tarcone

10-18-2010, 09:02 PM

Why does the NFL not allow 53 active players?
I think that is a stupid rule.
If they go to 18 games they better increase roster sizes to 60 and practice squads to 10. With no inactive players (Non-practice squad).

Lathum

10-18-2010, 09:22 PM

They just said at the end of the half Edwards hit his hand on a helmet, and the Jags don't have a 3rd QB . How the fuck does a team not have a 3rd QB?

bhlloy

10-18-2010, 09:25 PM

Still stunned that the Jags didn't take a look at Leinart, and that Leinart didn't wait for a better opportunity to open up. Del Rio is a USC alum, it just made too much sense.

Greyroofoo

10-18-2010, 10:29 PM

They just said at the end of the half Edwards hit his hand on a helmet, and the Jags don't have a 3rd QB . How the fuck does a team not have a 3rd QB?

Two points:

1) How often do you get down to the 3rd QB in a game?

2) If you do get down to the 3rd QB, your chances of winning probably aren't that great anyways. You've proven that you can't protect the QB, so does it really matter who's back there?

Lathum

10-18-2010, 10:36 PM

Two points:

1) How often do you get down to the 3rd QB in a game?

2) If you do get down to the 3rd QB, your chances of winning probably aren't that great anyways. You've proven that you can't protect the QB, so does it really matter who's back there?

I completely disagree. You are 2 plays from needing that guy and your second point is just wrong. Even the best protected QBs take hits, only takes two hits.

miami_fan

10-18-2010, 10:41 PM

I wonder if the "this is the appeal" crowd will feel the same once someone dies on the field.

The Jack Tatum hit on Darryl Stingley happened how many years ago? And the oohs and aahs keep coming when there is a big hit.

Some of the fundamentals of the game will have to change in order to protect the players. Cris Carter talked about expanding the field to compensate for the bigger players in the game today. How about immediately ejecting players for hits that are deemed so flagrant that 15 yards is not enough? Why the hell are we ejecting players who throw punches at the someone's helmet but a player who intentionally goes helmet to helmet stays in the game? I also think it is time to put a bit more emphasis on rules that don't punish the defense to protect the offense. Bring back the in the grasp rule. Maybe make it illegal for the ball carriers to lead with their head when approaching a defender. Make it just as important for the offensive players to protect themselves as it currently is for the defensive players not to endanger the offensive player.

dubb93

10-19-2010, 12:18 AM

I wonder if the "this is the appeal" crowd will feel the same once someone dies on the field.

People die in my line of work everyday and we don't make anywhere near as much as pro football players yet it doesn't stop people for continuing to call 911.

I mean for millions a year and all I have to do is get hit repeatedly by grown men for a few hours a week? And if I get hurt I get paid the same salary to watch from the sidelines? If these guys are too big of pussies to keep doing this I will take their spot. Where do I sign up for this at?

stevew

10-19-2010, 12:29 AM

We don't have enough long term data on brain injuries IMO. So it's best to err on the side of caution. And as with anything, the pros steer the game for the youth. I don't want to see people in high school mercilessly trying to jack people up. I'm not going to ever have sons, but I don't think I would let them play football with all the knowledge that is out there.

Ronnie Dobbs2

10-19-2010, 06:52 AM

People die in my line of work everyday and we don't make anywhere near as much as pro football players yet it doesn't stop people for continuing to call 911.

Are the people dying in your line of work preventable, but not stopped because of vague notions of entertainment value? Because otherwise it's a piss poor analogy.

I mean, I'm sure going to the Coliseum was pretty fucking exciting too.

Greyroofoo

10-19-2010, 07:41 AM

I mean for millions a year and all I have to do is get hit repeatedly by grown men for a few hours a week? And if I get hurt I get paid the same salary to watch from the sidelines? If these guys are too big of pussies to keep doing this I will take their spot. Where do I sign up for this at?

Just give Al Davis a call, I'm sure he'll find a spot for you somewhere.

NorvTurnerOverdrive

10-19-2010, 08:47 AM

welp, ray lewis' career is over.

bulletsponge

10-19-2010, 10:18 AM

^ what did you hear? i dont see anything anywhere about him

Greyroofoo

10-19-2010, 10:28 AM

He's probably referring to the NFL possibly suspending players for helmet-to-helmet hits as early as this weekends games. Also includes any other over-the-top hits the NFL deems unnecessary.

Thomkal

10-19-2010, 10:45 AM

Still stunned that the Jags didn't take a look at Leinart, and that Leinart didn't wait for a better opportunity to open up. Del Rio is a USC alum, it just made too much sense.

Me too. Leinart would probably be starting by now given the amount of QB injuries if he had waited a week or two before signing with someone.

Suburban Rhythm

10-19-2010, 02:10 PM

First I am hearing/seeing this-

ESPN Has More Influence on the NFL than You Realize - Monte Burke - Flow - Forbes (http://blogs.forbes.com/monteburke/2010/10/19/espn-has-more-influence-on-the-nfl-than-you-realize/)

Profootball Talk is reporting that ESPN, which televises Monday Night Football, asked Tennessee Titans coach, Jeff Fisher, to take timeouts late in garbage time of last night’s Titans’ rout over the Jacksonville Jaguars. The reason: the cable network apparently needed to squeeze in a few more ads. (Fisher talked about it in his post-game press conference.)

According to Fisher, ESPN also asked Jaguars coach, Jack Del Rio, to do the same, even though there were only a few moments left in a game that the Titans were winning 23-3. Del Rio complied with the request (Fisher didn’t). Del Rio’s clock-stopping allowed Titans running back Chris Johnson to scamper for a 35-yard touchdown, a meaningless score in a rather meaningless game.

AFShadow

10-19-2010, 02:25 PM

First I am hearing/seeing this-

ESPN Has More Influence on the NFL than You Realize - Monte Burke - Flow - Forbes (http://blogs.forbes.com/monteburke/2010/10/19/espn-has-more-influence-on-the-nfl-than-you-realize/)

I think Fisher was screwing with the media in the room since they were all asking why they kept CJ in the game so late. I doubt he or Del Rio would of admitted to this if true.

Suburban Rhythm

10-19-2010, 02:32 PM

It's like that Buffalo Wild Wings commercial come to life!!

Draft Dodger

10-19-2010, 02:52 PM

Add one more point.

Who's the 3rd QB in Indianapolis? There isn't one and I can't remember the last time they had one. That doesn't excuse not having a 3rd guy behind Garrard/Edwards but a 3rd QB is only important in places where injuries are an issue.

Pats don't have one either. clearly, the Jaguars are trying to emulate the elite NFL teams

molson

10-19-2010, 03:04 PM

People die in my line of work everyday and we don't make anywhere near as much as pro football players yet it doesn't stop people for continuing to call 911.

Are you really comparing the risks of football with the risks of emergency response?

I think someone's house burning down is slightly more worthy reason to take a risk then to compensate for poor tackling ability.

molson

10-19-2010, 03:08 PM

Two points:

1) How often do you get down to the 3rd QB in a game?

2) If you do get down to the 3rd QB, your chances of winning probably aren't that great anyways. You've proven that you can't protect the QB, so does it really matter who's back there?

I think everybody has a hypothetical 3rd QB but it makes a lot of sense to make a WR/RB the third QB. There's not enough roster spots to clog one up with a player who will almost never impact a game, at the expense of an extra guy who will actually get on the field.

But didn't the NFL used to have some emergency QB spot? That you could have a 47th active guy - an emergency QB - but once he actually played you couldn't use your first two QBs?

Mustang

10-19-2010, 03:47 PM

But didn't the NFL used to have some emergency QB spot? That you could have a 47th active guy - an emergency QB - but once he actually played you couldn't use your first two QBs?

They still do. You can designate a 3rd QB and have them inactive. They can come into the game, but if they do the 1st and 2nd string QBs can't return. This almost came into play this weekend with the Lions and Stafford.

DaddyTorgo

10-19-2010, 04:02 PM

Pats don't have one either. clearly, the Jaguars are trying to emulate the elite NFL teams

Edelman would probably beg to differ - if necessary I mean.

stevew

10-19-2010, 04:24 PM

I'd assume plan C would have been for the Jags to use probably Mike Thomas as an option QB.

Actually, wait, he probably can't take snaps with the #80.

Pumpy Tudors

10-19-2010, 04:31 PM

tucker rocky

10-19-2010, 04:52 PM

I'd assume plan C would have been for the Jags to use probably Mike Thomas as an option QB.

Actually, wait, he probably can't take snaps with the #80.

I think the emergency QB is Zack Miller:

Athletic, speedy, tight end who can make plays down the field … Former college QB who made move to TE as a rookie … Totaled 21 receptions for 212 yards and two TDs … Had a 62-yard reception on Dec. 6 against Houston, the longest by a tight end in franchise history, and finished the season with two TD receptions at Cleveland … Only third TE drafted by the Jaguars in the last seven years … First Nebraska-Omaha player drafted since TE Ryan Krause (San Diego, sixth round 2004) … Rushed for a school-record 50 TDs and threw for 4,096 yards with 26 TDs in college …

COLLEGE
Four-year letterman as QB … Began career at Nebraska as walk-on before transferring to Nebraska-Omaha … Served as team captain for final three seasons … Played TE for the first time at the 2009 Valero Cactus Bowl in Kingsville, Texas, a Division II all-star game held each January. Finished with five receptions for 116 yards and one TD in that game … Had at least 10 TDs in each of his final three seasons … Career passing totals included 305 of 501 for 4,096 yards with 26 TDs … Finished with 3,122 career rushing yards with school-record 50 TDs … Started 11 games at QB as a senior and led team in rushing and passing … Was 115 of 179 passing for 1,508 yards and 11 TDs and had team-high 1,061 rushing yards and 18 TDs on 175 carries … Averaged 96.5 rushing yards per game with three 100-yard rushing games … Named the Mid-America Intercollegiate Athletic Association offensive player of the week three times and was an All-MIA second-team selection … Totaled 239 rushing yards and four TDs on 21 carries at Washburn … Started 11 games at QB as a junior and threw for career-high 1,553 yards and 10 TDs with a 60.5 completion pct. … Ranked second on team in rushing with 822 yards and scored 10 TDs on 166 carries … Posted three games with 200-plus passing yards and two with 100-plus rushing yards … Named the NCC’s outstanding offensive back and was second Football Gazette all-region … Rushed for 1,098 yards and scored a school-record 19 TDs as a sophomore … Threw for 713 yards and four TDs … Rushed for a TD in 10 of 11 games and averaged 109.8 rushing yards per game … Had six 100-plus yard rushing games including season-high 165 yards at Minnesota State … Earned All-NCC honors and second-team all-region by Daktronics and D2Football.com … Played in 10 games as a freshman and saw action as reserve QB and WR … Had 29 rushes for 141 yards with three TDs and was 21 of 35 passing for 322 yards and one TD … Spent 2003 season at Nebraska as a walk-on before transferring in 2004 …

Danny

10-19-2010, 07:46 PM

And Miller probably is not that much worse than most 3rd stringers lol.

Abe Sargent

10-19-2010, 08:32 PM

Bill Parcells has a certain punter he would use in an emergency fashion, and the Jags have Zach Miller. Nothing wrong with that.

Suburban Rhythm

10-20-2010, 07:29 AM

NFL.com news: Steelers LB Harrison mulling retirement after $75K fine for hit (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81b77d1c/article/steelers-lb-harrison-mulling-retirement-after-75k-fine-for-hit?module=HP_headlines)

James Harrison believes the NFL's crackdown on dangerous hits is cramping his style. And, unless Pittsburgh Steelers (http://www.osatwork.com/teams/pittsburghsteelers/profile?team=PIT) coach Mike Tomlin can convince him otherwise, the 32-year-old linebacker claimed Tuesday night that he might consider retirement.
Hours after the league fined him $75,000 for his concussion-causing hit on Cleveland Browns (http://www.osatwork.com/teams/clevelandbrowns/profile?team=CLE) wide receiver Mohamed Massaquoi (http://www.osatwork.com/players/mohamedmassaquoi/profile?id=MAS318574), Harrison appeared on Fox Sports Radio's "Into The Night with Tony Bruno" and told guest host Jody McDonald that his first stop Wednesday morning will be in Tomlin's office.

<SCRIPT type=text/javascript>YUI().use('node', 'nfl-iframe', function(Y) { Y.one('#pcard-TXGEUNHI').plug(Y.NFL.IFrame, {resizeOnLoad: true});});</SCRIPT>

"I'm going to sit down and have a serious conversation with my coach tomorrow and see if I can actually play by NFL rules and still be effective," Harrison said. "If not, I may have to give up playing football."

I hate when Harrison says stupid things.

Suburban Rhythm

10-20-2010, 07:32 AM

Dola

This is classic

http://www.replayphotos.com/nflphotostore/2010-11-season-print/james-harrison-mohamed-massaquoi_321187.cfm

For anywhere between $15.95 and $249.95 (plus shipping and handling of course), you can get a photo of the Harrison on Massaqoui hit, direct from the NFL.

http://pictures.replayphotos.com/images/NFL/lg/national-football-league-2010-season-week-6-james-harrison-mohamed-massaquoi-nfl-1011-wk6-00264lg.jpg

spleen1015

10-20-2010, 07:51 AM

I'm sure the NFL has complete control over all of those pictures. According to Mike & Mike, they know about it and I am sure they will take them down.

I hope Harrison does retire. The league is better off without him.

M GO BLUE!!!

10-20-2010, 07:56 AM

Pat McAfee of Indianapolis Colts arrested, charged with public intoxication - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5706081)

Asked by police how much he had to drink, McAfee said "A lot cause I am drunk,"

I now have a favorite punter.

spleen1015

10-20-2010, 08:03 AM

I saw that on the local news this morning.

This guy is a pretty good punter and kick off guy. He's never been a liability on the field. Hopefully, this doesn't turn into a big deal.

JPhillips

10-20-2010, 08:07 AM

NFL.com news: Steelers LB Harrison mulling retirement after $75K fine for hit (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81b77d1c/article/steelers-lb-harrison-mulling-retirement-after-75k-fine-for-hit?module=HP_headlines)

I hate when Harrison says stupid things.

I know I'll be on pins and needles all day wondering whether Harrison will quit or keep playing for millions of dollars.

What will it be James? A nation turns it's lonely eyes to you.

Suburban Rhythm

10-20-2010, 08:13 AM

Pat McAfee of Indianapolis Colts arrested, charged with public intoxication - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5706081)

I now have a favorite punter.

I saw that on the local news this morning.

This guy is a pretty good punter and kick off guy. He's never been a liability on the field. Hopefully, this doesn't turn into a big deal.

Breeding ground for idiot kickers?

Passacaglia

10-20-2010, 08:17 AM

Have there been any actual rule changes? I heard on Mike and Mike this morning that Brian Urlacher called the new rules bullshit, and Harrison is talking about it, too. But I haven't actually heard anything saying the rules were changing.

spleen1015

10-20-2010, 08:19 AM

I don't think they changed any of the rules. They're just changing the punishments for helmet to helmet hits and defenseless receivers from what I gather.

Greyroofoo

10-20-2010, 08:41 AM

At least McAfee didn't drive or anything.

DaddyTorgo

10-20-2010, 08:52 AM

GrantDawg

10-20-2010, 09:07 AM

I don't think they changed any of the rules. They're just changing the punishments for helmet to helmet hits and defenseless receivers from what I gather.

But the calls are so judgemental, guys that live on big hits are never going to know what they'll get into trouble for until after the fact. The Robinson hit is case in point. He didn't lead with his helmet, and any contact to Jacksons head was incidental. The hit was exactly what every coach at every level of football teaches you to put out to make sure the reciever doesn't catch the ball. Yet, he gets fine and starting next week would get suspended. When are they just going to give up the charade and go to two-hand touch?

spleen1015

10-20-2010, 09:14 AM

You guys crack me up with the two hand touch talk.

Come on! These guys are suffering BRAIN injuries because of this shit. The NFL has to do something. I have no idea what the right answer is, but they have to do something before someone dies.

MikeVic

10-20-2010, 09:41 AM

In all seriousness, I do think football is too violent to keep it as-is and not see someone eventually die on the field. So I'd welcome changes, but it also can't get away from a hard-hitting game because that really is one part of it that I like. I love me some smash-mouth football, I guess we just need to watch out for the head injuries.

SnowMan

10-20-2010, 09:43 AM

I vote everyone plays in giant hamster bubbles.

kingfc22

10-20-2010, 09:46 AM

How about starting to test for HGH. These guys are freaks of nature and are obviously using HGH. Make their bodies return to a more normal state rather than the super humans we see out there on the field.

molson

10-20-2010, 09:47 AM

When are they just going to give up the charade and go to two-hand touch?

I vote everyone plays in giant hamster bubbles.

You guys are definitely watching a different game than I am every weekend...

You also sound kind of creepy....If football tries to make the game safer (and increase the league's chance of continuing to exist as players continue to get bigger/faster, ect - and that's what this is really about, the league's survival, not the league's passion for players' health), how are you going to satisfy your violent cravings? I guess you can keep jerking off to MMA, but even that's gotten safer.

If you can only enjoy football if people are getting carted off the field, and you thumb your nose at any attempt to make the league safer - I think there's seriously something wrong with you. Or at the least, you're certainly not a football fan, just a violence fan (and I think there's other places you can get that)

MikeVic

10-20-2010, 09:53 AM

molson

10-20-2010, 09:59 AM

Lighten up, Francis. ;)

I do wish I could deliver a helmet-to-helment hit every time I hear the brilliant commentary, "what is this, two-hand-touch?" It's just a retarded thing to say, and I think everyone who says it thinks they've stumbled upon this amazing point that will change the entire debate. It wasn't clever the first billion times though. It's not even a point you can respond to.

Irrational, yes. But you know the kind of people that say that. Usually fat-asses who have never been in physical confrontation, have never been injured doing anything, and are afraid of spiders. Real tough guys who live vicariously through the TV.

But yes, point taken.

Sincerely,

Francis.

Desnudo

10-20-2010, 10:43 AM

People die in my line of work everyday and we don't make anywhere near as much as pro football players yet it doesn't stop people for continuing to call 911.

I mean for millions a year and all I have to do is get hit repeatedly by grown men for a few hours a week? And if I get hurt I get paid the same salary to watch from the sidelines? If these guys are too big of pussies to keep doing this I will take their spot. Where do I sign up for this at?

Times change and rules change as we develop more medical knowledge. The same thing is happening with head trauma and soldiers, who do get killed every day.

Do you feel that allowing them to wear helmets at all is a bad thing? Or maybe our soldiers shouldn't be allowed to wear kevlar helmets. I can't believe you're against America.

Fidatelo

10-20-2010, 11:12 AM

Maybe they should make it a rule that only offensive players get to wear hard helmets, and instead defensive players wear leather ones? That way you'd never have tacklers leading with their heads, but they'd still have some cushion against falls and whatnot.

Desnudo

10-20-2010, 11:20 AM

Aylmar

10-20-2010, 12:25 PM

I can't imagine anyone summing up my feelings on these hits better than Mark Schlereth.

NFL will stop selling photos of illegal plays - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5706132)

If his video doesn't play, it's tagged as Schlereth Sounds Off. In Harrison's case, the guy was DPOY two seasons ago playing exactly the same brand of football he plays today. So, two years ago, you're the best defensive player in the league and now you're a "repeat offender" and the poster child for what's wrong with the NFL in this new enforcement?

I loved playing football. I loved playing defense and hitting people. I wish I'd had the speed to play at a higher level. To me, there are few sounds in the world more satisfying than the air leaving a guy's lungs when you really hit him on a football field. I loved watching running backs try and skirt my gap even when the play was called there because they knew I was going to plant them into the ground as hard as I could if I got my hands on them. It's part of what makes the game great to me, and it's a major reason I watch. I think Peyton Manning is great, but if you give me a choice between watching him carve up a defense and watching him get hurried, hit, and sacked all day, I'd always rather watch the latter. I guess it's the defensive lineman in me.

miami_fan

10-20-2010, 12:36 PM

You guys are definitely watching a different game than I am every weekend...

You also sound kind of creepy....If football tries to make the game safer (and increase the league's chance of continuing to exist as players continue to get bigger/faster, ect - and that's what this is really about, the league's survival, not the league's passion for players' health), how are you going to satisfy your violent cravings? I guess you can keep jerking off to MMA, but even that's gotten safer.

If you can only enjoy football if people are getting carted off the field, and you thumb your nose at any attempt to make the league safer - I think there's seriously something wrong with you. Or at the least, you're certainly not a football fan, just a violence fan (and I think there's other places you can get that)

A smart ass would say that by making the game two hand touch, the NFL would be taking the ultimate step in making the game safer.;)

Everyone acknowledges that there are physical risks that are associated with playing football in the NFL. I feel the NFL needs to address all of the safety risks, not just one that oh by the way increases offensive production and protects the offensive stars. Hell, throw the defenders a bone. Zero tolerance for violent hits against offense, zero tolerance for blocking below the waist for the defense. The question is very simple. Is the NFL concerned with the safety of all players or just a select few? Right now, the league wrapping one group of players in bubble wrap while telling the rest of the players to keep their heads on a swivel. So no, I don't have any issues with the league making the game safer. I don't watch football to see any one carted off. I just want them to make it safer for all. in every way possible so no one is carted off, whether it is a head, knee or any other injury.

Aylmar

10-20-2010, 12:42 PM

A smart ass would say that by making the game two hand touch, the NFL would be taking the ultimate step in making the game safer.;)

Everyone acknowledges that there are physical risks that are associated with playing football in the NFL. I feel the NFL needs to address all of the safety risks, not just one that oh by the way increases offensive production and protects the offensive stars. Hell, throw the defenders a bone. Zero tolerance for violent hits against offense, zero tolerance for blocking below the waist for the defense. The question is very simple. Is the NFL concerned with the safety of all players or just a select few? Right now, the league wrapping one group of players in bubble wrap while telling the rest of the players to keep their heads on a swivel. So no, I don't have any issues with the league making the game safer. I don't watch football to see any one carted off. I just want them to make it safer for all. in every way possible so no one is carted off, whether it is a head, knee or any other injury.

+1

No one wants to see injuries. Just make it fair. Don't make every rule change around protecting and promoting offense. If I wanted 95-99 games, I'd watch the Arena League. No offense, Pumpy.

Ronnie Dobbs2

10-20-2010, 12:45 PM

THEY AREN'T CHANGING THE RULES JUST THE PUNISHMENTS FOR HITS THAT WERE ALREADY ILLEGAL.

Carry on.

molson

10-20-2010, 12:45 PM

A smart ass would say that by making the game two hand touch, the NFL would be taking the ultimate step in making the game safer.;)

Very true - and obviously some risk is acceptable, and if you regulate too much or in the wrong ways, that might harm the game in ways that doesn't really decrease the risks at all, or enough to make the rules make sense.

There's a ton of good points there, but it's just that whenever the NFL shows any inkling to try to visit this issue, you have the low-life "tough guy" losers come out of the woodwork and all they can offer is - "ehh, might as well make it two hand-touch", as if any concern for safety is a encroachment on their right to get off on injuries and violence. That's when I become Francis and need to lighten up, I admit :)

I think too I'm looking at this a little differently after watching what happened with the Rutgers kids last weekend. If the NFL doesn't manage this issue, and players continue to get bigger and faster and the league doesn't adjust, the game is going to ultimately be in big trouble. It can survive the occasional terrible injury, but not much more than that. I don't think the country has the stomach for that.

Aylmar

10-20-2010, 12:48 PM

THEY AREN'T CHANGING THE RULES JUST THE PUNISHMENTS FOR HITS THAT WERE ALREADY ILLEGAL.

Carry on.

The Robinson hit isn't and wasn't illegal. Their helmets don't touch each other. He instinctively lowers his head just before contact, but he hits Jackson's shoulder, not his head. Every NFL analyst I've watched the last two days has repeated the same thing. It's unfortunate they both got hurt, but it's not a penalty.

NorvTurnerOverdrive

10-20-2010, 01:19 PM

THEY AREN'T CHANGING THE RULES JUST THE PUNISHMENTS FOR HITS THAT WERE ALREADY ILLEGAL.

Carry on.
they expanded the language to include 'devastating hits' however the fuck they're going to interpret that.

thing is, those hits serve a purpose. they cause fumbles/incompletions and make receivers tentative over the middle.

edelman would have caught a td pass this weekend but ray lewis landed a 'devastating hit' on him and dislodged the ball. not only that but you didn't hear edelman's name again all game.

Ronnie Dobbs2

10-20-2010, 01:24 PM

Ray Anderson says enforcement, not rules, will change | ProFootballTalk.com (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/10/19/ray-anderson-says-enforcement-not-rules-will-change/)

But what about the widespread notion, pushed for the last 12 hours by ESPN, that "devastating hits" and "head shots" will be legislated out of the game?

Said Anderson: "I don't know where the word devastating came from but that's not my word."

Aylmar

10-20-2010, 01:29 PM

they expanded the language to include 'devastating hits' however the fuck they're going to interpret that.

thing is, those hits serve a purpose. they cause fumbles/incompletions and make receivers tentative over the middle.

edelman would have caught a td pass this weekend but ray lewis landed a 'devastating hit' on him and dislodged the ball. not only that but you didn't hear edelman's name again all game.

After the Harrison hit on Massaquoi, the Browns didn't run another shallow crossing route into that zone all game. I guess they decided it best not to let McCoy miss another read and get another guy knocked out.

In a lot of ways, I agree with Steve Young about part of the problem being QB play. The pass to Massaquoi shouldn't have been thrown. He was crossing from a soft zone into an area policed by Harrison. McCoy should have read the defense and not thrown him the ball. He's a rookie making his first start against one of the most confusing defenses in the league, though, so these things are going to happen.

Is the league going to eventually say that defenders have to let the guy catch the ball and gather himself before he can be hit? No more attempting to breakup pass plays with hits. You have to wait for the guy to gain possession and then tackle him. That would eliminate nearly all of these type blows from the game. It makes for, in my mind at least, a shitty game, but it would solve the problem.

NorvTurnerOverdrive

10-20-2010, 01:29 PM

Aylmar

10-20-2010, 01:34 PM

Ray Anderson says enforcement, not rules, will change | ProFootballTalk.com (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/10/19/ray-anderson-says-enforcement-not-rules-will-change/)

Then the NFL's actions don't back up Anderson's words. The Robinson hit was not a head shot, so why was he fined? It was a devastating hit, but not a head shot. He put his helmet right into Jackson's pads. The continuation of the hit resulted in his helmet sliding upwards, but that's just a result of force, not intent.

Ronnie Dobbs2

10-20-2010, 01:35 PM

Ronnie Dobbs2

10-20-2010, 01:37 PM

I haven't (and probably won't) have the time to read all this, but it looks full of info (though Florio-ized):

Helmet-to-helmet 10-pack | ProFootballTalk.com (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/10/20/helmet-to-helmet-10-pack/)

Aylmar

10-20-2010, 01:44 PM

Falcons' Dunta Robinson on $50,000 fine: 'I am not a dirty player'; your vote? - The Huddle: Football News from the NFL - USATODAY.com (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2010/10/falcons-cb-dunta-robinson-on-50000-fine-i-am-not-a-dirty-player/1)

That quote doesn't even make sense, and neither do the physics involved. So, even if you hit a guy clean and the resulting forces cause your heads to bump, it's illegal? Good luck avoiding that type of contact, or legislating it out of the game short of declaring all hits where the receiver is in the process of catching the ball illegal. Ah well, I imagine they'll figure it out. It's the NFL way. They totally overreact to situations in the moment and then things calm down and go back to normal. The NFLPA is none to happy, though, if you listen to guys like Mawae. If they really start suspending guys for hits like that one, it will add another wrinkle to the labor discussions.

NorvTurnerOverdrive

10-20-2010, 01:46 PM

fuck it. more games. more rules prohibiting defense. let's crank this fucker up till we get arena league scores.

Suburban Rhythm

10-20-2010, 01:55 PM

molson

10-20-2010, 01:59 PM

fuck it. more games. more rules prohibiting defense. let's crank this fucker up till we get arena league scores.

There's plenty of ways to keep scoring in check, and help the defense, while still regulating and trying to minimize dangerous tactics.

I really don't think the choice is arena league scores v. minimizing the risk of paralysis and concussion. (And if it was, the latter's going to have to win out).

RainMaker

10-20-2010, 02:01 PM

+1

So flags will get thrown every play on the OL/DL? Plenty of helmet-to-helmet contact on running plays.
NFL doesn't sell many OL/DL jerseys so they don't really matter.

Aylmar

10-20-2010, 02:05 PM

+1

So flags will get thrown every play on the OL/DL? Plenty of helmet-to-helmet contact on running plays.

Shhh...no one cares about the long term impact of repeated head trauma suffered by lineman who ram their heads into each other nearly every play. We only care about splash plays and skill guys! Get out of this thread! ;)

Suburban Rhythm

10-20-2010, 02:12 PM

NFL doesn't sell many OL/DL jerseys so they don't really matter.

Dwight Freeney? Julius Peppers?

OL....Joe Thomas? Cleveland has to be able to sell one jersey.

Shhh...no one cares about the long term impact of repeated head trauma suffered by lineman who ram their heads into each other nearly every play. We only care about splash plays and skill guys! Get out of this thread! ;)

Mike Tomlin, is that you?

Abe Sargent

10-20-2010, 02:16 PM

I think this is all because the league has wanted more passing and more points and the rules changes to enhance that aspect of the game have led to this. They are playing in more space, with higher speeds, and players are physically more open to hits. A rugged 270 lb back hitting you is tough, and a LB hitting back is tough. A 210 lb safety hitting you at full throttle accelerated over many yards when you just finished catching the ball is a lot harder.

GrantDawg

10-20-2010, 02:29 PM

The Robinson hit isn't and wasn't illegal. Their helmets don't touch each other. He instinctively lowers his head just before contact, but he hits Jackson's shoulder, not his head. Every NFL analyst I've watched the last two days has repeated the same thing. It's unfortunate they both got hurt, but it's not a penalty.

And this is what I am talking about. I am FOR saftey rules. I am FOR outlawing helmet to helmet hits. I am against outlawing hard tackling and actually allowing the freakin defensiver players to play the game. I am soooo far from a no-brained tough guy on this. I am not saying that any hit should be legal. I am saying you do have to let players play the game, or you water down the product and actually increase the likely hood os some injuries to occur.

We all already agree that there be some risk, or we'd outlaw the sport all-together. Now, what level of risk is the question.

Ronnie Dobbs2

10-20-2010, 02:34 PM

That quote doesn't even make sense, and neither do the physics involved. So, even if you hit a guy clean and the resulting forces cause your heads to bump, it's illegal?

Here's another quote from Anderson:

“In the second quarter of Atlanta’s game against Philadelphia, Robinson unnecessarily struck a defenseless receiver. That action violated Rule 12, Section 2, Article 8 (g) of the NFL Official Playing Rules, which states that it is unnecessary roughness if the initial force of the contact by a defender’s helmet, forearm, or shoulder is to the head or neck area of a defenseless receiver who is catching or attempting to catch a pass. ‘’

Dunta Robinson gets $50,000 fine - NFC South Blog - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcsouth/post/_/id/14437/dunta-robinson-gets-50000-fine)

I haven't seen enough of the hit to have an opinion myself, this is just what the league is saying. They're saying it was already against the rules. Whether what Robinson did is in violation of this seems to be open to interpretation, or else the league is just straight up making things up.

NorvTurnerOverdrive

10-20-2010, 02:36 PM

I really don't think the choice is arena league scores v. minimizing the risk of paralysis and concussion. (And if it was, the latter's going to have to win out).

you're sniffing glue if you think this is about protecting players. this is about managing player/public outcry in lieu of proposing 2 additional games.

the league's not being proactive about head injuries. it's being reactionary to protect it's financial interests.

molson

10-20-2010, 02:41 PM

you're sniffing glue if you think this is about protecting players. this is about managing player/public outcry in lieu of proposing 2 additional games.

the league's not being proactive about head injuries. it's being reactionary to protect it's financial interests.

Yes, I made that point too, but not about the 18 games. The NFL is obviously concerned about its business most of all and I think that concern is very telling. The NFL realizes that parayslis/death is potentially just around the corner, and if a handful of those events occur, the league is in big, big trouble. Americans aren't going to have the stomach for that.

This is a billion dollar industry and the NFL is panicked about sustaining their business in this environment, where the game continues to get more and more dangerous all the time. That NFL panic - about the future of its business - tells us plenty about where they see the game going, and what the risks are.

In that post I was more responding to this idea that we're going to get 75-72 football games if the NFL cracks down on violent hits. We're a lot closer to deaths on the field than 75-72 games, and if the latter is such a huge problem, there's a million other ways to help the defense.

I wouldn't mind sniffing glue though, I mean someone does it, so there must be some benefit. It feels like a weird thing to just pick up at my age though. I wouldn't even know where to start, or what kind of glue to get.

GrantDawg

10-20-2010, 02:43 PM

Here's another quote from Anderson:

Dunta Robinson gets $50,000 fine - NFC South Blog - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcsouth/post/_/id/14437/dunta-robinson-gets-50000-fine)

I haven't seen enough of the hit to have an opinion myself, this is just what the league is saying. They're saying it was already against the rules. Whether what Robinson did is in violation of this seems to be open to interpretation, or else the league is just straight up making things up.

It is this. He does not hit his neck or head in the intial force. The league is full of kaka.

RomaGoth

10-20-2010, 02:44 PM

Cleveland has to be able to sell one jersey.

Paging Colt McCoy....

molson

10-20-2010, 02:46 PM

It is this. He does not hit his neck or head in the intial force. The league is full of kaka.

They probably are, and will have to as we're sorting all this out. There's no way you can have 100% efficient enforcement on this kind of stuff (i.e., you can't guarantee the "innocent" are never penalized/fined). The NFL's just looking to reduce these hits/injuries and this is a clumsy early attempt. But I bet it will reduce these hits, even if a few players get dinged for "unfair" fines.

And throwing out a bunch of fines really isn't the end of the world. We'll see who really gets suspended.

Ronnie Dobbs2

10-20-2010, 02:48 PM

It is this. He does not hit his neck or head in the intial force. The league is full of kaka.

I don't know. I just watched it a number of times and I'm still not sure there isn't contact between the helmets at all.

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NorvTurnerOverdrive

10-20-2010, 02:51 PM

.
nobody wants to see trauma. i get it. my point is 300 pound men wearing body armor are running full speed at one another. shit is gonna happen.

molson

10-20-2010, 02:55 PM

nobody wants to see trauma. i get it. my point is 300 pound men wearing body armor are running full speed at one another. shit is gonna happen.

"Shit is gonna happen" ain't gonna fly anymore if the worst happens. "That's the way everyone's always been coached" ain't gonna fly anymore if the worst happens. The NFL gets that and while they can't eliminate that risk, they can drastically reduce it. It would be INSANE, business-wise, not too, because the NFL won't exist in its present form if you wait until there's a bunch of on-field tragedies to recognize that risk. I'm not a doctor so I don't know how huge exactly that risk is, but I'm seeing the NFL panicking a little which is making me think the risk is more than some here are appreciating.

I agree though, that the NFL doesn't give a shit if Josh Cribbs wakes up with a headache. This isn't about the welfare of players. It's about legal liability, and the future of the sport.

stevew

10-20-2010, 03:00 PM

Paging Colt McCoy....

Cribbs actually.

NorvTurnerOverdrive

10-20-2010, 03:04 PM

RainMaker

10-20-2010, 03:06 PM

"Shit is gonna happen" ain't gonna fly anymore if the worst happens. "That's the way everyone's always been coached" ain't gonna fly anymore if the worst happens. The NFL gets that and while they can't eliminate that risk, they can drastically reduce it. It would be INSANE, business-wise, not too, because the NFL won't exist in its present form if you wait until there's a bunch of on-field tragedies to recognize that risk. I'm not a doctor so I don't know how huge exactly that risk is, but I'm seeing the NFL panicking a little which is making me think the risk is more than some here are appreciating.
Athletes have died in sports and it hasn't changed things. It's a fact of nature that sports can be dangerous. Nascar is only going to go so far with their restrictor plates. Boxing isn't going to mandate headgear. The NHL doesn't require neck guards despite having a guys throat slit on the ice and almost dying.

I just think it's a bit presumptuous to think a death on the football field will hurt or destroy the NFL. I also don't think they are panicking. They are going to play the PR game and try and look like they care about player safety long enough till the hoopla dies down.

molson

10-20-2010, 03:13 PM

where does it end? what parts of the game don't involve violent collisions? chris cooley got a concussion this weekend he doesn't even know when or how.

It ends somewhere, and it's certainly not easy to know exactly where, and everyone has different opinions on that. But taking a few steps to mitigate serious injury doesn't automatically bring us to AFL scores and touch football. That's just a lazy argument.

molson

10-20-2010, 03:16 PM

Athletes have died in sports and it hasn't changed things. It's a fact of nature that sports can be dangerous. Nascar is only going to go so far with their restrictor plates. Boxing isn't going to mandate headgear. The NHL doesn't require neck guards despite having a guys throat slit on the ice and almost dying.

I just think it's a bit presumptuous to think a death on the football field will hurt or destroy the NFL. I also don't think they are panicking. They are going to play the PR game and try and look like they care about player safety long enough till the hoopla dies down.

One death won't kill the NFL, but a handful of deaths/paralysis/retired players with brain injuries going nuts and killing people could cost them billions.

And sports HAVE changed a ton. We used to have bare knuckle boxing for 150 rounds. I'm sure that when they added big gloves, mouthguards, shorter rounds, less rounds, and more liberal fighes stoppages, you had the same tough guy mindset as today whining about it, calling people pussies for considering safety and wondering - "when will it end?"

Football has been though this too. It was almost banned 100 years ago and they had to change their rules in the name of safety. (18 players had been killed playing football in 1905). The purists didn't like it, but football's managed to survive OK (and their #1 safety rule change was legalizing the forward pass - which I think turned out to be a good change).

RainMaker

10-20-2010, 03:18 PM

One death won't kill the NFL, but a handful of deaths/paralysis/retired players with brain injuries going nuts and killing people could cost them billions.

And sports HAVE changed a ton. We used to have bare knuckle boxing for 150 rounds. I'm sure that when they added big gloves, mouthguards, shorter rounds, less rounds, and more liberal fighes stoppages, you had the same tough guy mindset as today whining about it, calling people pussies for considering safety and wondering - "when will it end?"
We've had players paralyzed, had major concussions end careers, had players go crazy after they retired. None of that has done anything to the popularity of the sport.

AFShadow

10-20-2010, 03:20 PM

A few former players including Alfred Williams, Matt Millen, and Mike Golic say if they want to make the players safer widen the field. That would especially help out on special teams plays like kickoff and punt returns which they felt are by far the most violent and dangerous collisions of any.

Aylmar

10-20-2010, 03:23 PM

It ends somewhere, and it's certainly not easy to know exactly where, and everyone has different opinions on that. But taking a few steps to mitigate serious injury doesn't automatically bring us to AFL scores and touch football. That's just a lazy argument.

Fair enough. In my opinion these early steps are difficult to enforce with any semblance of consistency and unbalanced in favor of the offense. I think the massive fines this week are a knee-jerk reaction by a league trying to cover it's ass with regard to "player safety" so it can sell the public and NFLPA on an eighteen game season in the ongoing labor negotiation. If that's a lazy argument, so be it.

molson

10-20-2010, 03:24 PM

We've had players paralyzed, had major concussions end careers, had players go crazy after they retired. None of that has done anything to the popularity of the sport.

Do you think the NFL's concern here is just humanitarian then?

They've been pretty fortunate, but our country's tolerance for those kind of incidents is going to continue to go down, and the frequency of those incidents is going to keep going up (without change). Those two factors would collide eventually under the status quo.

The real disaster, finacially-speaking, would come when we have a popular, liked, mainstream player killed or maimed (or if he kills and maims his family), and then another incident occurs before people really get over the last one. The media would turn on the league quickly if that happened, and that's the real risk.

I mean, even the low-entertinment business of professional wresting got attention from Congress when Chris Benoit wiped out his family. Now, we never saw full-blown hearings, as was rumored, but if we had a handful of similar incidents, or on-field incidents, in the NFL, it'd be a pretty big issue. The NFL is basically writing it's "what we did to try to prevent this" presentation as we speak.

NorvTurnerOverdrive

10-20-2010, 03:29 PM

It ends somewhere, and it's certainly not easy to know exactly where, and everyone has different opinions on that.
thanks for clearing that up.
That's just a lazy argument.
ok fine. how about late 80's wac?

molson

10-20-2010, 03:31 PM

thanks for clearing that up.

Sorry, but the issue is a tad more complicated than deciding between "turn a blind eye" and "touch football". There's a pretty huge middle ground between those. The NFL is taking a few steps away from "turn a blind eye", and you're scared now we are jumping right to "touch football". I don't think you need to worry about that just yet. It's lazy to argue that any safety enforcement leads us to that far other extreme. It's much more difficult to argue where the actual line should be in that huge middle ground.

RainMaker

10-20-2010, 03:34 PM

Do you think the NFL's concern here is just humanitarian then?

They've been pretty fortunate, but our country's tolerance for those kind of incidents is going to continue to go down, and the frequency of those incidents is going to keep going up (without change). Those two factors would collide eventually under the status quo.

The real disaster, finacially-speaking, would come when we have a popular, liked, mainstream player killed or maimed (or if he kills and maims his family), and then another incident occurs before people really get over the last one. The media would turn on the league quickly if that happened, and that's the real risk.
Football isn't based around stars like other sports. It's teams and as fans, we throw away former players and move on to the next batch. It's why the owners have so much power over the players union. Yes there would be sadness if a star died and it would be talked about a lot, but we would move on and the popularity of the sport would not suffer.

I don't think any of their motives are humanitarian. I think it is likely financial, although I don't think lawsuits really scare the league in any way. Their concern is likely new demographics such as women that they have been catering heavily for. They don't want to be labeled as too barbaric, but at the same time they don't want to eliminate the aspects of the sport that make men love it. This is just an attempt to play the PR game until ESPN chooses a new topic to run into the ground for a few weeks.

RainMaker

10-20-2010, 03:36 PM

Sorry, but the issue is a tad more complicated than deciding between "turn a blind eye" and "touch football". There's a pretty huge middle ground between those. The NFL is taking a few steps away from "turn a blind eye", and you're scared now we are jumping right to "touch football". I don't think you need to worry about that just yet. It's lazy to argue that any safety enforcement leads us to that far other extreme. It's much more difficult to argue where the actual line should be in that huge middle ground.
I don't think they are turning to touch football, but I do think they are punishing players, teams, and fans for things that are really not done with any negative intent. One of Harrison's hits was legal and even the hit on Desean Jackson seemed legal to me.

My problem is that the rule seems to be shifting from head hunting to just hitting a guy really hard.

Passacaglia

10-20-2010, 04:05 PM

Football isn't based around stars like other sports. It's teams and as fans, we throw away former players and move on to the next batch. It's why the owners have so much power over the players union. Yes there would be sadness if a star died and it would be talked about a lot, but we would move on and the popularity of the sport would not suffer.

I don't think any of their motives are humanitarian. I think it is likely financial, although I don't think lawsuits really scare the league in any way. Their concern is likely new demographics such as women that they have been catering heavily for. They don't want to be labeled as too barbaric, but at the same time they don't want to eliminate the aspects of the sport that make men love it. This is just an attempt to play the PR game until ESPN chooses a new topic to run into the ground for a few weeks.

Seriously? If someone *dies* on the field, you think people will just move on?

JonInMiddleGA

10-20-2010, 04:16 PM

Seriously? If someone *dies* on the field, you think people will just move on?

Absolutely.

There's been no hesitation to embrace murderers, drug addicts, dog fighters. Why on earth anyone would think there'd be any significant backlash from an accidental on-field death is completely beyond my ability to even imagine.

Hell, the only time NASCAR's popularity was affected by an accidental death was when it was THE driver that died. The NFL doesn't have anyone close to the level of popularity dominance that Earnhardt had, Manning is probably the closest thing I can think of.

molson

10-20-2010, 04:25 PM

I don't think they are turning to touch football, but I do think they are punishing players, teams, and fans for things that are really not done with any negative intent. One of Harrison's hits was legal and even the hit on Desean Jackson seemed legal to me.

My problem is that the rule seems to be shifting from head hunting to just hitting a guy really hard.

Well, I guess we won't have to wait long for the data on this - to see if throwing a few extra fines and threatening suspensions will produce some 75-72 arena football-esque games next week, or otherwise shitty football (you haven't contended that, but a few others in this thread appear to fear that).

On the off-chance though, the NFL is not ruined from this next week, then we can see what injuries/suspensions/fines actually occur and the NFL will have a chance to figure out where to go from there.

Glengoyne

10-20-2010, 04:27 PM

But now Harrison says he's confused and he might have to retire.

...

Don't let the door hit you on your way out.

...

I don't think the league has been too unclear about this. There is some of that though. If you lower your head and use the crown of your helmet as a weapon, then you are likely to get into trouble.

Hit another player in helmet to helmet contact, and you are likely to get in trouble.

The mentions of shoulders and "devastating" hits should be clarified. Hopefully not by the same morons who dreamed up the "go to ground" reception rule.

Pumpy Tudors

10-20-2010, 04:29 PM

I hope all you assholes who are talking shit about arena football get concussions this weekend. And I don't want any whining about how I'm being insensitive. Y'all been at this game long enough to know the risks if you mess with Tudors.

RomaGoth

10-20-2010, 04:33 PM

I don't think they are turning to touch football, but I do think they are punishing players, teams, and fans for things that are really not done with any negative intent. One of Harrison's hits was legal and even the hit on Desean Jackson seemed legal to me.

My problem is that the rule seems to be shifting from head hunting to just hitting a guy really hard.

Where do you draw the line between "legal" and "unsafe"? Just because it is "legal" to smoke a cigarette doesn't mean it is safe. The NFL rules were created when players were smaller and slower, and they are in need of serious revision to accommodate the bigger, faster players.

RomaGoth

10-20-2010, 04:35 PM

Passacaglia

10-20-2010, 04:38 PM

Absolutely.

There's been no hesitation to embrace murderers, drug addicts, dog fighters. Why on earth anyone would think there'd be any significant backlash from an accidental on-field death is completely beyond my ability to even imagine.

Hell, the only time NASCAR's popularity was affected by an accidental death was when it was THE driver that died. The NFL doesn't have anyone close to the level of popularity dominance that Earnhardt had, Manning is probably the closest thing I can think of.

Calling it THE driver is funny. It gives me an image of these cars as being like a starship, and THE driver is like the captain. I get what you mean now (I guess Earnhardt was a very popular driver) but at first I thought you meant it was a big deal cuz the driver died and not like a member of the pit crew or something. Anyway, while I agree with your first paragraph, I think that since the NFL is more mainstream than NASCAR, it has more fans that don't want to see death on the field.

molson

10-20-2010, 04:43 PM

Calling it THE driver is funny. It gives me an image of these cars as being like a starship, and THE driver is like the captain. I get what you mean now (I guess Earnhardt was a very popular driver) but at first I thought you meant it was a big deal cuz the driver died and not like a member of the pit crew or something. Anyway, while I agree with your first paragraph, I think that since the NFL is more mainstream than NASCAR, it has more fans that don't want to see death on the field.

And the preception of NASCAR, at least back then, was that deaths were common and fans pretty much went to events rooting for them to happen (or at least, rooted for a spectacular crash and fireball). That's not the audience that's going to sustain the NFL's business.

But it's true that one death is a flukey, tragic thing. A bunch of them is what causes problems. And the NFL isn't going to wait for even one to happen, especially when they can make changes that aren't going to effect the product all that much.

Aylmar

10-20-2010, 04:59 PM

Well, I guess we won't have to wait long for the data on this - to see if throwing a few extra fines and threatening suspensions will produce some 75-72 arena football-esque games next week, or otherwise shitty football (you haven't contended that, but a few others in this thread appear to fear that).

On the off-chance though, the NFL is not ruined from this next week, then we can see what injuries/suspensions/fines actually occur and the NFL will have a chance to figure out where to go from there.

To be fair, I said that if they changed the rule to not allow contact until after the ball had been secured it would make for a shitty game, not the escalation of fines and/or suspensions. But go ahead and paint my argument with that brush if it suits your purpose.