POLL: Who do you dislike more?

[Dutch]

Good luck!

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

http://www.authenticsportscollectibles.com/store/images/StevetroutSignedbaseballcardCubs.jpg

[Dutch]

Like Brooks Conrad, I refuse to allow an out here!!!

[jeff061]

Yeah, guess I'm not a dog lover. I wouldn't call myself a Vick supporter, but I guess the dog fighting doesn't hit that nerve with me. For whatever reason(not that I think it's a-okay).

[jeff061]

But I am starting to feel like the asshole on the island. Quick, there's got to be another Favre hater!! :D.

[wade moore]

The Vick vs. Big Ben poll was a lot more difficult.

Brett is a pervy douche, but what he's done is not on the same planet as what Vick did.

[Greyroofoo]

Brett Favre is love, Dutch is not...

[larrymcg421]

Yeah, guess I'm not a dog lover. I wouldn't call myself a Vick supporter, but I guess the dog fighting doesn't hit that nerve with me. For whatever reason(not that I think it's a-okay).

Dog fighting is one thing. Drowning and electrocuting dogs is what takes it to the next level for me.

[jeff061]

I guess which deserves a good nut kicking and which person's nuts I would personally like to kick are two different answers.

[DanGarion]

Is there any real comparison here?

I'm not convinced the message is Favre's voice, nor am I sold that these pictures which I haven't seen are of him.

And even if they are it's a personal matter that isn't illegal. But I do think that cheating on a SO is bad, just not as bad as killing innocent animals.

[jeff061]

Well to be honest, I've ignored the latest Favre drama. True or not, not a factor with me.

[DanGarion]

Oh and Jenn Sterger is yummy.

[DanGarion]

Lastly, I just finally caught up on the story (out of town). The story is more convincing now, but still a personal matter, and a bad judgment if he did do this.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

I don't hate either of them. Fuck Scott Mitchell though.

[Chief Rum]

I don't hate either of them. Fuck Scott Mitchell though.

What he said.

I did vote for Vick, because what he did was more reprehensible, IMO. But in the end, neither much matters to me.

[Dutch]

Wow, I was expecting a 50/50 split.

[Dutch]

Brett Favre is love, Dutch is not...

Is the trout option that important???

[wade moore]

Wow, I was expecting a 50/50 split.
Can you explain your logic?

These are seriously light-years apart - I don't know how you even compare them. I just assume that the people voting Favre are Favre haters and it has little to nothing to do with the Sturger incident.

[Logan]

Once you get out of the habit of watching ESPN for anything but live sports, ignoring the annual Favre drama is easy, and that's the only thing that ever made me "hate" him. For a minute there I appreciated that his on the field struggles plus this latest incident must have made him wish that he didn't come back this time, but then I remembered he got $20MM for his latest return. If he was smart, he would've gotten the divorce out of the way beforehand and all that money could've been his.

[jeff061]

I just assume that the people voting Favre are Favre haters and it has little to nothing to do with the Sturger incident.

Pretty much.

[Ksyrup]

http://www.authenticsportscollectibles.com/store/images/StevetroutSignedbaseballcardCubs.jpg

This is one of those "bloopers" cards where somehow Steve Trout was replaced with a pic of his grandma throwing a ball, right? :)

[I. J. Reilly]

Sending pictures of your junk to a skank >>>>>> killing animals

[Mustang]

Favre.

Although, my ability to objectively answer this question is compromised being a Packer fan.

[Subby]

Lastly, I just finally caught up on the story (out of town). The story is more convincing now, but still a personal matter, and a bad judgment if he did do this.
Sexual harassment is not a personal matter.

[Subby]

Oh and Jenn Sterger is yummy.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO EAT EVERYTHING YOU SEE!

[RomaGoth]

Favre is a giant turd, Vick is a dog killer. Should be an option to vote for both of them, but what Vick did is worse than Favre on a large scale.

[wade moore]

Sexual harassment is not a personal matter.
fwiw, I agree with this.

And Sexual Harrassment IS serious.

But what Vick did, and what Big Ben was accused of doing, are both far more serious.

[molson]

Sexual harassment is not a personal matter.

Of course, we don't know anything about what she sent him or the nature of the relationship at the time.

But since this is just the internet and we're free to speculate - I think he was hitting that. I don't think public figures are sending cock pics to random people who aren't expecting them, generally. Or at least, it's fair to assume that without more info.

[jbergey22]

fwiw, I agree with this.

And Sexual Harrassment IS serious.

But what Vick did, and what Big Ben was accused of doing, are both far more serious.

Its only sexual harrassment if she takes it as that. If she didnt want this story reported and has yet to go to the police with this story, its fairly obvious she didnt think it was as big of a deal as the rest of the world does.

It was bad judgement not sexual harrassment. Until whats her name comes out and talks about how she was scared and felt violated or she goes to the police with this it is nothing more.

[Subby]

I don't think public figures are sending cock pics to random people who aren't expecting them, generally. Or at least, it's fair to assume that without more info.
I think you are naive if you think that.

[Subby]

Its only sexual harrassment if she takes it as that. If she didnt want this story reported and has yet to go to the police with this story, its fairly obvious she didnt think it was as big of a deal as the rest of the world does.

It was bad judgement not sexual harrassment. Until whats her name comes out and talks about how she was scared and felt violated or she goes to the police with this it is nothing more.
I'm not an attorney so maybe I am missing something, but why is the burden on her to make this a case of sexual harassment? Getting cock pics from your co-worker is not sexual harassment if you don't go to the police or report it?

[molson]

I think you are naive if you think that.

LOL.

Why isn't the most obvious explanation for this that Favre was banging this chick and they were exchanging some dirty texts and messages? What am I missing? Why is it "naive" to be the only one not immediately jumping to "ya, he's a serial exhibitionist"

If I'm naive, where are all the celebrity cock texts out there, there should be hundreds of thousands if it's something that makes so much more sense than regular adultery. (Please though, don't send me any PMs trying to prove your point).

Adultery is about a billion times more common than felony exhibitionism (which is really what everyone, for some reason, assumes was the case here). I think you're naive if you think otherwise.

Edit: What was really funny to me about your response is you sounded like this wise old sage of cock texts. "You don't know how much it goes on molson, believe me, I know."

[Noop]

I don't hate Vick but I don't care for Farve so I will not vote.

[Passacaglia]

Its only sexual harrassment if she takes it as that.

Isn't that like saying it's only stealing if you notice your wallet's gone?

[molson]

Isn't that like saying it's only stealing if you notice your wallet's gone?

No, the perspective of the alleged victim is EVERYTHING. Sex itself is a pretty bad crime if the one of the parties doesn't see it as something she's agreeing to, no?

[Passacaglia]

No, the perspective of the alleged victim is EVERYTHING. Sex itself is a pretty bad crime if the one of the parties doesn't see it as something she's agreeing to, no?

So by that logic, are all unreported rapes not actually rapes?

"If she didnt want this story reported and has yet to go to the police with this story, its fairly obvious she didnt think it was as big of a deal as the rest of the world does."

[molson]

So by that logic, are all unreported rapes not actually rapes?

"If she didnt want this story reported and has yet to go to the police with this story, its fairly obvious she didnt think it was as big of a deal as the rest of the world does."

No, obviously most rape is not reported.

But if someone sends you a pic of his cock, and you don't see any problem with that (perhaps because you're in a relationship and there's been plenty of mutual dirty talk, etc), that's not sexual harassment.

Of course if you feel harassed, but you don't want to go public with it, that's a different thing. But you're talking about the perspective of the victim. If she doesn't think it's harassment based on the context of their relationship - it ain't harassment.

But you (and America) seems to be assuming this was harassment, just based on pictures and message alone. This stuff DOES go on in relationships, believe it or not.

[jbergey22]

I'm not an attorney so maybe I am missing something, but why is the burden on her to make this a case of sexual harassment? Getting cock pics from your co-worker is not sexual harassment if you don't go to the police or report it?

Maybe Im way out of line but I dont feel sexual harrassment is cut and dry. What one person might feel crosses the line another might think it is funny in this situation or harmless. It depends on the relationship the two have.

Until we know more details of the relationship with Favre and Jen its hard to say what exactly this is.

[Jughead Spock]

Its only sexual harrassment if she takes it as that.


That is 100% incorrect.

[molson]

That is 100% incorrect.

What do you believe the definition of sexual harassment is? Anything dirty?

Context, perception, and intent are everything. We don't know anything about any of those three things in this case. And IMO, adultery is a much more likely explanation than random exhibitionism.

[Mustang]

Bottom line there are state and federal laws for sexual harassment. It came up so now the NFL needs to investigate. Because they were both employees of the Jets, they can't just say 'well, she didn't complain'. From what I understand, to press the issue I believe they will need her to speak up, but the initial investigation.. no.

[Jughead Spock]

The issue is more that they were working for the same organization at the time. I could give two hoots about it, and don't know if it happened or not. But if you have one employee in a more powerful position propositioning another in a lower position with such 'tactics', you have an organizational issue.

[Mustang]

Maybe Im way out of line but I dont feel sexual harrassment is cut and dry.

Really??

[Jughead Spock]

For the record, even if it was blatant sexual harrassment and he had her fired because she laughed at his cock 'n crocs, it's still not even in the same stratosphere as Vick, imo.

[jbergey22]

Really??

Yes.

I could send a pic of my privates to 30 female friends that would laugh about it while another 30 would probably think Im a fucking wierdo. Not everyone takes things the same way.

Is it harrassment for the 30 that think its funny?

[Logan]

I'm no Favre fan, but I find it funny that people can't possibly imagine how a girl who has already posed nude may not have first (or subsequently) texted Favre a pic of herself wrist-deep.

[molson]

I'm no Favre fan, but I find it funny that people can't possibly imagine how a girl who has already posed nude may not have first (or subsequently) texted Favre a pic of herself wrist-deep.

I'm starting to think maybe FOFC posters tend to be more on the side of being, maybe, less sexually adventurous? Assuming that Favre MUST have crudely violated this delicate flower?

[Mustang]

Not everyone takes things the same way.


From an investigation standpoint, how someone feels about something doesn't mean you don't investigate. If he sent the pictures unsolicited, regardless of her reaction it still doesn't mean it wasn't sexual harassment.

If someone took $50 from my wallet without asking me and my reaction was 'Meh, I had too much money anyways', bottom line it is still stealing. Going 26 MPH in a 25 MPH and the police clock me at 1 over? Still speeding. What it is and wanting to press the issue are 2 different things.

[Jughead Spock]

I'm no Favre fan, but I find it funny that people can't possibly imagine how a girl who has already posed nude may not have first (or subsequently) texted Favre a pic of herself wrist-deep.

Favre must produce these photos. Not that I care about the laws and vindicating him. I just wanna see the photos. :popcorn:

[molson]

If someone took $50 from my wallet without asking me and my reaction was 'Meh, I had too much money anyways', bottom line it is still stealing. What it is and wanting to press the issue are 2 different things.

Stealing is stealing, but dirty sex talk isn't always harassment.

[Passacaglia]

Yes.

I could send a pic of my privates to 30 female friends that would laugh about it while another 30 would probably think Im a fucking wierdo. Not everyone takes things the same way.

Is it harrassment for the 30 that think its funny?

If you assault ten people, and one of them is a masochist, is it only a crime for nine of those cases?

[molson]

If you assault ten people, and one of them is a masochist, is it only a crime for nine of those cases?

And assault is assault, but sex talk (and antics) isn't always harrasment.

Kind of like how it isn't assault to tackle someone in a football game.

[Mustang]

Stealing is stealing, but dirty sex talk isn't always harassment.

I didn't say that he was harassing her. What I'm stating is that the NFL has a responsibility to investigate. Notice that I said if he sent her pics unsolicited.. if that is the case, then it is harassment.

[molson]

I didn't say that he was harassing her. What I'm stating is that the NFL has a responsibility to investigate.

Criminal investigation is the responsibility of the police, I would think, not the NFL.

Civil investigation is generally the responsibility of the party making the civil complaint.

I guess it's worth it for the NFL to call this lady, and say, "hey, what was the deal with those pictures?" But that's definitely the end of the road if she doesn't want to cooperate. And honestly, the NFL could go too far there and harass her into talking about her sexual exploits. (They're too smart to do that, but I think some people want them to track her down and lock her up until she talks). In a criminal case, her cooperation doesn't necessarily matter (if you can get evidence elsewhere of a crime), but I don't think that's the NFL's problem.

[Passacaglia]

No, obviously most rape is not reported.

But if someone sends you a pic of his cock, and you don't see any problem with that (perhaps because you're in a relationship and there's been plenty of mutual dirty talk, etc), that's not sexual harassment.

Of course if you feel harassed, but you don't want to go public with it, that's a different thing. But you're talking about the perspective of the victim. If she doesn't think it's harassment based on the context of their relationship - it ain't harassment.

But you (and America) seems to be assuming this was harassment, just based on pictures and message alone. This stuff DOES go on in relationships, believe it or not.

I think there's a disconnect here. If we're talking about being in a relationship, that's one thing. But if it's just that she was "okay with it" and he lucked out that she didn't mind, that's a different story.

[Jughead Spock]

That's about it, the NFL/the Jets have a responsibility to investigate and address it. I, by no means, am feeling that poor Jenn Sterger was victimized here. At least not with the evidence present so far (or lack of).

[Logan]

And assault is assault, but sex talk (and antics) isn't always harrasment.

Kind of like how it isn't assault to tackle someone in a football game.

That would be battery. That's battery, not batteries, Philly fans.

[molson]

That's about it, the NFL/the Jets have a responsibility to investigate and address it. I, by no means, am feeling that poor Jenn Sterger was victimized here. At least not with the evidence present so far (or lack of).

Investigate by delving into Sterger's personal affairs? Sounds like harrasment.

They definitely want to make themselves available if she wants to talk (or if she gets a lawyer and the lawyer wants to talk), but I don't know what legal "investigation" you can do beyond that. They're not going to be going through Sterger's phone records, etc.

[Mustang]

Criminal investigation is the responsibility of the police, I would think, not the NFL.


I'm not a lawyer, but I would think for sexual harassment companies would take the lead. Ultimately, they (NFL/Jets in this case) are trying to protect their asses (not the accused) so someone doesn't claim that they are fostering a hostile workplace. Hell, their investigation could just consist of one call to Jen of 'hey, about Brett's cock'.. 'Oh, don't mind that, we were bangin' each other on the side and I sent him some titty shots'. "Oh, ok.. have a nice day". The investigation doesn't have to resemble CIS.

By the way, my official thoughts are that he was bangin' her and they were exchanging things like this. Maybe if Favre has a huge mound of unshaven pubes covering his junk he could just use the Wookie defense.

[Jughead Spock]

I agree with that, for the most part. They just need to make the effort of talking to her ('did he do it?') and him ('did you do it?'), make a speech about the evils of sexual harrassment, post a few more posters and be done with it.

I don't think it's the NFL or the Jets' responsibility to go on a witch hunt.

[jbergey22]

I think there's a disconnect here. If we're talking about being in a relationship, that's one thing. But if it's just that she was "okay with it" and he lucked out that she didn't mind, that's a different story.

Isnt this the point? Until you know what relationship two people have you cant start throwing sexual harrassment out there.

[Mustang]

Isnt this the point? Until you know what relationship two people have you cant start throwing sexual harrassment out there.

Would you feel better if people just said 'investigating claims of sexual harassment?'

[jbergey22]

Would you feel better if people just said 'investigating claims of sexual harassment?'

Its close to being better;)

Perhaps this.

"Investigating claims of sexual harrassment without consent from the alleged victim"

[Mustang]

"Investigating claims of sexual harrassment without consent from the alleged victim"

And with that simple agreement on terminology, we have officially turned into a bunch of Ents on FOFC.

:D

[lordscarlet]

OK, seriously, what is wrong with you people? You act like every cock pic sent is sexual harassment. There are claims that it doesn't matter what she thinks. Of course it does! Perhaps she ASKED for the pic. To my knowledge there is nothing in the media that states one way or the other. This picture is just out there. There is currently no way to know that she didn't want the picture.

[Mustang]

There is currently no way to know that she didn't want the picture.

You mean other than asking her?

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

OK, seriously, what is wrong with you people? You act like every cock pic sent is sexual harassment. There are claims that it doesn't matter what she thinks. Of course it does! Perhaps she ASKED for the pic. To my knowledge there is nothing in the media that states one way or the other. This picture is just out there. There is currently no way to know that she didn't want the picture.

No, what I take away from the discussion is the belief that when a powerful person in an organization sends cock pics to a not-powerful person in an organization, and when it is reported that the not-powerful person "spurned Favre's advances because he was married, but also because she was working for the Jets at the time she didn't think it was the best idea to start a torrid affair with the team's highest profile player," perhaps a little look around is warranted.

edit:

Full quote from the original deadspin article in August:

Sterger claimed she spurned Favre's advances because he was married, but also because she was working for the Jets at the time she didn't think it was the best idea to start a torrid affair with the team's highest profile player (the Jets have not responded to a question about any knowledge of the Favre/Sterger saga at this time). Plus, if she went forward with how aggressive he was and how skeeved out she was to some of her superiors, she suspected she might lose her job. The interactions were flirty and strange but she didn't think there wasn't anything that made her too uncomfortable. But then, one night, Sterger received a picture on her phone which was so shocking that she just tossed it across the room. It was his dick. Brett Favre's dick

[molson]

You mean other than asking her?

perhaps a little look around is warranted.

So is that really all you guys think the NFL needs to do? Ask her? It seems like some are demanding some kind of larger investigation, but I think everyone would agree they wouldn't be out-of-bounds to attempt to ask a question, privately.

And if she says she doesn't want to talk, or if she says "whatever, it was nothing", do you agree that that should be the end of it? Because I really think if the NFL goes further than that they're actually harassing her.

This isn't like a non-cooperative domestic violence victim with a black eye. The NFL isn't the police. And they're not a party in a civil suit.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I think the NFL has the right to look into whatever it sees fit; she has the right to cooperate or not.

[molson]

I think the NFL has the right to look into whatever it sees fit.

I still don't know what that means. I still don't know what kind of digging you think they can do that would be legal and ethical.

Do you think your employer, or a past employer, without has the right to dig up details on your personal sex life (without any accusations from anyone about wrongdoing, but basically just because something sounded really dirty)?

[Sun Tzu]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ae/Richard_Crenna.jpg/220px-Richard_Crenna.jpg

[DaddyTorgo]

even if it's not sexual harassment it may still be illegal under state law...

[molson]

even if it's not sexual harassment it may still be illegal under state law...

You mean sexting? Maybe. The NFL should certainly cooperate with any police investigation but I don't think they need to conduct their own.

[Mustang]

So is that really all you guys think the NFL needs to do? Ask her?

For me, pretty much. Or at a minimum, whatever their lawyers think is needed to cover their ass.

If she doesn't talk or wants to talk, not a hell of alot they can do to force her to talk (or even should). The net result is just to proceed with the investigation into the claim and followup on whatever information comes out of it. Their end result is not for criminal proceedings on Favre, but rather make sure that all of a sudden 50 girls don't crawl out of the woodwork saying that the organization knew that Favre routinely sent out pics.

At least that is my take on it...

[molson]

For me, pretty much. Or at a minimum, whatever their lawyers think is needed to cover their ass.

If she doesn't talk or wants to talk, not a hell of alot they can do to force her to talk (or even should). The net result is just to proceed with the investigation into the claim and followup on whatever information comes out of it. Their end result is not for criminal proceedings on Favre, but rather make sure that all of a sudden 50 girls don't crawl out of the woodwork saying that the organization knew that Favre routinely sent out pics.

At least that is my take on it...

Presumably, they had a sexual harrasment policy in place that covered all that stuff at the time - a mechanism for being receptive to, and logging, sexual harrasment complaints. But that mechanism, legally, has to fall far short of digging up details of sex lives of former employees who they read stuff on the internet about.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Do you think your employer, or a past employer, without has the right to dig up details on your personal sex life (without any accusations from anyone about wrongdoing, but basically just because something sounded really dirty)?

If my employer suspects that I have sexually harassed another employee, then yes. This seems to be the case here.

[EagleFan]

If the relationship/messaging was consentual does that mean Favre is in for the Tiger treatment?

(with that said, I don't condone the Tiger treatment as I thought he got a bum rap about everything as what he did was between himself and his family, nothing was illegal)