The thread where I hope it is possible to discuss Huck Finn

[AENeuman]

So big fight in the virtual teacher lounge over this today.
New edition of 'Huckleberry Finn' without the 'n' word: Read an excerpt from the introduction | Shelf Life | EW.com (http://shelf-life.ew.com/2011/01/06/huckleberry-finn-n-word-introduction/)

What I am interested in is the notion of editing an author and intention. here are my questions:

Obviously words in one era gain new meanings in the next era. We often cannot feel the same emotion of a word as the original readers. i am not saying using "slave" is a better choice, but if there was a word that we use today that came closer to how the n-word it was used at the time would it be wrong to edit that word in?

Is editing the text more harmful than a teacher orally misinterpreting the text to their students? For example, what if the teacher makes the students write an essay on how Huck may be an alien?

How close is editing to translating? We are ok with translating texts continuously; Bible, Dante Plato...

When a teacher asks, "tell me what Hamlet was saying there" is that not the same as editing?

[Sun Tzu]

Not to be nitpicky, but the title was supposed to say "Huck Finn" right?

[flounder]

I think it's ok to have a toned down version, as long as the original version is still available. I disagree though that the n-word was used differently at the time. It still was incredibly ugly and derogatory; people just didn't care. It's an ugly word for an ugly time in our history, and I think we need to be careful that by making Huck Finn more palatable for modern audiences we don't turn it into Gone With the Wind.

[RomaGoth]

Not to be nitpicky, but the title was supposed to say "Huck Finn" right?

/cue porn music

[JediKooter]

Maybe a different question to ask is: What was the author intending when using that word? Mark Twain was pretty well aware of what words he used in certain contexts and tried to use them for maximum effect. Was he a racist or was he using that word to call out racists and the ugliness of that word? Twain was a master of social and political commentary, I see his use of the n word in Huck Finn as intentional (showing the ugliness of the word) and should be left alone. If someone is too immature to understand the use of it in the context of the book, then I have no advice for them other than to not read it.

[Young Drachma]

Seems like a good way to drum up publicity for their new edition of the book, more than anything else.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

because it's easier to take it out than teach kids about social evolution in this country.

makes perfect sense.

[molson]

It's been a while since I read the book, but did the use of that word have anything to do with the story? I thought it was basically just a nickname that would be common at the time, and obviously horrifying today.

The only reason we associate that word with the book at all is because of all the various book banning movements, right? I don't see why people think it's important to include a specific bad word in the movie just because it happened to be used in the book. And it seems that that particular word would just completely be out of place in what is probably a kids movie.

Edit: Oh wait, it's not a movie. I'm an idiot.

[Suburban Rhythm]

And we see how well a focus on p.c. instead of quality has worked for so many American businesses lately. Oh, wait.








;)

[Julio Riddols]

The P.C. movement is akin to buying a 64 pack of crayola crayons and finding out you only get 64 shades of grey.

[DanGarion]

What a fucking joke. Next thing they are going to do is start changing history on us...

[JediKooter]

What a fucking joke. Next thing they are going to do is start changing history on us...

DanGarion...Glenn Beck is on line 1. He'd like to speak to you.

[PilotMan]

Huck Finn has always been somewhat controversial IIRC. It was more than the use of the N-word, it was also the portrayal of the slave Jim and the entire language that he used to talk. He didn't use common language but a pidgin english or some variation on that.

IMO, Twain set out to show the time, to capture that moment in life for the story, and in order for that to happen the language needed to be representative. I don't have a problem with the change. I am sure it's not the first variation on the book at all, however, I do believe that the story and all that it encompasses loses some of it's value as an American classic.

[Young Drachma]

The P.C. movement is akin to buying a 64 pack of crayola crayons and finding out you only get 64 shades of grey.

Except the PC movement isn't behind this one. Conservatives are, that's the best part.

[Drake]

If people aren't interested, the run of books will end up remaindered, warehoused, then pulped. It's a small publishing company trying to sell books with the imprimatur of a professor to give the production some boost.

If people are interested, it will sell. People who want to read it can. People who don't can get the copy of their preferred text everywhere else.

I expect capitalism will sort this one out without people getting into a ruckus about whether or not this constitutes some variation of censorship/political correctness/doublespeak.

[Julio Riddols]

Good ol' conservatives.

[RomaGoth]

When a teacher asks, "tell me what Hamlet was saying there" is that not the same as editing?

I would consider this to be interpreting, not editing.

[Young Drachma]

A Nation of Cowards - Ta-Nehisi Coates - Culture - The Atlantic (http://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2011/01/a-nation-of-cowards/68934/)

This is actually much worse, because the invocation of nigger by Twain is not a moral failing. But because of our needs, Twain isn't good enough. Because we can't handle the story of who we were, and evidently who we are, Twain must be summoned up from the dead and, all against himself, submitted before the edits of amateurs.This is our system of fast-food education laid bare: Children are roaming the halls singing "Sexy Bitch," while their neo-Confederate parents are plotting to chop the penis off Michelangelo's David, and clamoring for Gatsby and Daisy to be reunited.

Let us all live in a world of warm snugglies. Let the air-conditioning anesthesia sprawl free. May the flowers of happiness multiply out. May Mark Twain's ghost haunt us all.


Does One Word Change 'Huckleberry Finn'? (http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/01/05/does-one-word-change-huckleberry-finn/obsuring-the-past)

"The reality is that, to Huck and many white people of the time, Jim would have been both a slave – that is, property to be owned and abused at the owner’s will – and a “nigger," the accepted way one referred to that particular property in the South at the time. The nuanced and particular differences between those two words, while connected in some ways, cannot, at least in the case of Huckleberry Finn, be blurred or muddied."

[RendeR]

Censorship is wrong. Editing out a word because its uncomfortable, derogatory or otherwise distasteful is just censorship.

I would expect, that a high school class (say sophomores or higher) could easily handle a reading and discussion of the original text.

Perhap I simply expect too much of parents.

[RainMaker]

I think it's wrong. Twain used the word for a reason and it should be kept in. Just doesn't sit right with me to change someone else's artistic creations like that and pass it off as the original.

Sad a few talentless hacks are going to change a novel of this stature and pat themselves on the back for it.

Little O/T but if you have Netflix, I recommend checking out "This Film is not yet Rated". Sort of a story about the MPAA and their rating system. This thread reminded me of it.

[TroyF]

Except the PC movement isn't behind this one. Conservatives are, that's the best part.

Interesting. I was going to ask who was the driver of this. Tipper Gore and the PC crowd have been responsible for driving out a lot of books out of the schools.

I don't understand why a high school class couldn't have a discussion about this.If Twain had wanted the word to be slave, that's exactly the word he'd have used.

[Scoobz0202]

Interesting. I was going to ask who was the driver of this. Tipper Gore and the PC crowd have been responsible for driving out a lot of books out of the schools.

I don't understand why a high school class couldn't have a discussion about this.If Twain had wanted the word to be slave, that's exactly the word he'd have used.

Exactly. Go ahead, change the word. They are perfectly entitled to change the word and sell it as they wish. But I would be seriously pissed off if this is used in schools (I'm sure it will be). It's not the original text. It's not the same book.

It would be like using the dumbed down version of old literature that you give to a seven year old so they can understand. For that purpose, okay, but in an educational situation, dear god no.

[tarcone]

What about the fact that a 12 year old boy is running around the country side with a man of no relation? Where are the censors?




;)

[AENeuman]

But I would be seriously pissed off if this is used in schools (I'm sure it will be). It's not the original text. It's not the same book.

Should schools then ban don quixote? certainly it would not be the original text. moreover, the translation would be recent, for modern readers.

also, how about translations of huck finn. i am sure there are versions where there is no word that has the same connotation as the american n-word and they use something close that the reader will understand. is that wrong too?

i understand the wrongness of passing this off as the original twain text, but i'm wondering if changing this word as a new version is ok.

[lungs]

What level of book is this intended to be read by? I mean, I remember reading these real basic versions of Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn in grade school that more told the story without using Twain's words. (edit:talking about this particular edition not HF itself)

But if this is intended to be read at a high school level then it would be dumb. The word exists and continues to exist be used widely (and not just by blacks as some in the racist crowd would lead you to believe). And it's used plenty widely here in the yankee north. A racist is a racist in Wisconsin and Alabama the same.

[RainMaker]

Not to shit on the uproard over this, but isn't this just one really small publishing company doing this? Do they really have any pull outside of maybe publishing for some local schools? This isn't like the 3 largest publishing houses all coming together and doing this.

[Scoobz0202]

Should schools then ban don quixote? certainly it would not be the original text. moreover, the translation would be recent, for modern readers.

also, how about translations of huck finn. i am sure there are versions where there is no word that has the same connotation as the american n-word and they use something close that the reader will understand. is that wrong too?

i understand the wrongness of passing this off as the original twain text, but i'm wondering if changing this word as a new version is ok.

I would say there is a difference in "lost in translation" and a word replaced for our 21st century sensibilities. It was replaced for what reason? To better connect with the 21st century? The book is a representation of the time. Who are we to change the text just because times have changed? When I studied a text in high school it wasn't just a study of the literal meaning of the book, but the context was taken as well. By replacing a powerful word, albeit a nasty word, it loses it's power.

[Young Drachma]

Not to shit on the uproard over this, but isn't this just one really small publishing company doing this?

Yes, just one small publishing company and no one else.

[Surtt]

Should schools then ban don quixote? certainly it would not be the original text. moreover, the translation would be recent, for modern readers.

They should if you are intentionally miss-translating.

[Senator]

They should just burn the book and be done with it. Who gives a shit, it's only a book.

[RomaGoth]

I guess the next change will be Shakespearean English to modern, fucked up, whatever passes as English now.

Goodbye, Hamlet and MacBeth.

[bhlloy]

I agree it's a huge shame if a dumbed down version of the book is taught in schools just because it makes some people uncomfortable. It's an ugly period in history and it is a very distasteful word but that is part of the point that Twain was making. Our schools should be encouraging this kind of debate and study, not ignoring it and editing it out. Ignoring bad parts of our history aren't going to make them more acceptable or less painful, it just means society is more ignorant as a whole.

[MrBug708]

If only Mark Twain had been black

[MacroGuru]

Funny, I read the book on my plane flight home today.

You change the word, replace it with a "nice" word and the entire story changes.

IMO, and it isn't humble, people need to stop worrying about the political correctness of a damn book that was written years ago for the time and focus on more important things in life.

[lordscarlet]

The only thing that is bothering me with this thread is the translation issue being thrown out there. That is a huge strawman to try and prop your argument on. Translation is far different from changing the original language of a text. It is impossible to ever be 100% correct with a translation. Reading a text in its native language is completely different -- it has no need for revision in an attempt to be more accurate to the original. That is generally why translations change, not because they want it to say something different. It is because the translator believes there is a more accurate way to depict the original intent.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Should schools then ban don quixote? certainly it would not be the original text. moreover, the translation would be recent, for modern readers.

Tilting at wind turbines just loses a lot of the poetry.

[Drake]

If only Mark Twain had been black

We can edit his biography to make it so.

[Noop]

I wish people would stop being so ashamed of their past. The N-word is just a word with an ugly history but it shouldn't be removed to spare some kids from reading it. I think we have gotten to sensitive as a whole in our American society.

Bunch of pussies.

[Drake]

Bunch of cats.

This post has been edited to make it more sensitive to women.

[Drake]

;)

[RendeR]

I wish people would stop being so ashamed of their past. The N-word is just a word with an ugly history but it shouldn't be removed to spare some kids from reading it. I think we have gotten to sensitive as a whole in our American society.

Bunch of pussies.


Dare I say this...

I'm with Noop on this one.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Except the PC movement isn't behind this one. Conservatives are, that's the best part.

Don't know where you're coming up with that. It was born of a project funded by the NEA & is being published by a company known for titles such as "'Ali Dubyiah and the Forty Thieves".

[RendeR]

"'Ali Dubyiah and the Forty Thieves".


That is a ROCKIN title. I think I like those guys.

[Neon_Chaos]

Wasn't the n-word widely used and acceptable during Mark Twain's time?

[Drake]

I'm putting out a version of huck finn where Jim is replaced by "Jen" and the n-word is replaced with the c-word.

I expect a positive response.

[Noop]

Wasn't the n-word widely used and acceptable during Mark Twain's time?

Yeah.

[Noop]

I'm putting out a version of huck finn where Jim is replaced by "Jen" and the n-word is replaced with the c-word.

I expect a positive response.

Funny story about the word cunt. When I was in high school a friend and I went to Publix to get a sub after school. While we were in line we were cracking jokes and one of the jokes was being done to an English accent. He says to me "I think my mother is a bit of a cunt for not buying me a car" to which I replied "Indeed my fellow she is a cunt but a jolly one."

There was an old white guy behind us who looked like he was going to kill us for saying cunt. He says "you stupid punks need to watch your mouth because that is not something you say about a woman" we say were joking and he gets more livid to the point he is shouting at us.

Now normally I would just shrug and continue doing whatever it is I am doing but this old man looks like a former vet or something. Long story short I learned that people get very offended by the word cunt.

[JediKooter]

Funny story about the word cunt. When I was in high school a friend and I went to Publix to get a sub after school. While we were in line we were cracking jokes and one of the jokes was being done to an English accent. He says to me "I think my mother is a bit of a cunt for not buying me a car" to which I replied "Indeed my fellow she is a cunt but a jolly one."

There was an old white guy behind us who looked like he was going to kill us for saying cunt. He says "you stupid punks need to watch your mouth because that is not something you say about a woman" we say were joking and he gets more livid to the point he is shouting at us.

Now normally I would just shrug and continue doing whatever it is I am doing but this old man looks like a former vet or something. Long story short I learned that people get very offended by the word cunt.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/L-KKDL0-gzM?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/L-KKDL0-gzM?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

[Sun Tzu]

One of my best friends is a Scotsman who spent a lot of time in England. Needless to say, I've become completely immune to effects of the word cunt.

[Noop]

Dare I say this...

I'm with Noop on this one.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lefsw3JOBX1qf8yek.gif

I need to play the lotto cause I just witnessed a miracle.

[Sun Tzu]

Is that James Van der beek?

[Drake]

James Van der beek is one of my favorite black actors .







Ref., Encyclopedia Brittanica, Revised and Updated Edition.

[I. J. Reilly]

It’s been a long time since I read the book, but I think this change would have a pretty profound effect. And I don’t think it’s just semantics to argue that those words are vastly different. Calling Jim a slave is just stating a fact, while calling him a n* is declaring that he is something less than human. It’s important for the language to dehumanize Jim, so it will stand in stark contrast to the story which humanizes him. Without that tension, it’s not much different than a cross country buddy movie.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm putting out a version of huck finn where Jim is replaced by "Jen" and the n-word is replaced with the c-word.

Foreword by Ron Franklin

[DaddyTorgo]

DanGarion...Glenn Beck is on line 1. He'd like to speak to you.


The State of Texas is on line 2 after that...

[JediKooter]

The State of Texas is on line 2 after that...

East of the Rockies...you're on the air with Coast to Coast AM.

[Drake]

Foreword by Ron Franklin

For the record, because I was curious after making that joke, I downloaded a copy of huck finn from Project Gutenberg and made those replacements.

It is amazing how funny a text can become by replacing just one word.

[CU Tiger]

[quote=flounder;2404491 I disagree though that the n-word was used differently at the time. [/quote]

Not to sidebar the whole thread, but I want to make a point here that is in direct relation to the OP's topic at hand.

I can only speak to experiences, but my grandfather is 91 and still refers to every black person as a n***** but there is no hate, or ill will in his heart. I remember my son being shocked around age 7 or so because papaw used the n word. To granpa the N word is synonymous with black or african American. Just like it was in the setting of huck finn in my opinion. I remember my papaw speaking to a widow at the funeral of a black man when I was a kid who had worked for him for 20 years. (He owned a grading and contracting business) He said "he was one fine n***** man and we will sure miss him, with a tear in his eye. I'm positive he isn't the only person in the world with this perspective.

Does it stem from a bad place and bad intentions?
Yes
But there are entire generations that knew it only as the norm and held no ill will, and had no understanding that there were any negative implications or connotations. It is "historically" accurate, even if it isn't politically correct and to change the text is a travesty in my opinion.

[CU Tiger]

I guess the next change will be Shakespearean English to modern, fucked up, whatever passes as English now.

Goodbye, Hamlet and MacBeth.

The ho bitches too much

[RainMaker]

But there are entire generations that knew it only as the norm and held no ill will, and had no understanding that there were any negative implications or connotations. It is "historically" accurate, even if it isn't politically correct and to change the text is a travesty in my opinion.
I think your example would be an anamolly though. The n-word started being deemed an insult in the late 1800's. The term colored became the mainstream term. There are parts of the country that did use it, but I don't think there would be many people who didn't realize the term had a negative connotation at some point.

[RainMaker]

I disagree though that the n-word was used differently at the time.
It was different though. It likely always had a negative connotation (any term used to describe blacks at that time had a negative connotation), but it wasn't nearly as ugly as it is today. It wasn't deemed an insult, but instead a way of categorizing a group of people.

That's why the change in the book is so odd. Slave would not be the proper word to use, black, colored, or negro would make much more sense.

I'd be curious to hear from some of the teachers on this board. I can see the point that it makes it easier to read aloud. I know I'd feel a bit uncomfortable using that word if I had to read aloud, especially in a classroom with individuals who were black. At the same time, I think it's important that students realize that word was common in that time and not deemed unacceptable.

[CU Tiger]

I think your example would be an anamolly though. The n-word started being deemed an insult in the late 1800's. The term colored became the mainstream term. There are parts of the country that did use it, but I don't think there would be many people who didn't realize the term had a negative connotation at some point.

I understand your point, but I think anamolly is probably a bad classification. Most I know over say 50-60 in the south still use it interchangably with black, afrian american, etc.

Frankly it infuriates me, or at least it used to, but I still hear it daily and often with no denegrtion intended.

Just my experience, then again I live in a town that integrated the local high school in 1979 so they are a bit behind.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I understand your point, but I think anamolly is probably a bad classification. Most I know over say 50-60 in the south still use it interchangably with black, afrian american, etc.

I'd put that age break a little higher I think but yeah, it's ingrained in the vernacular but there's hardly any malice attached to it's use by that generation.