Pro Football HOF Finalists Annouced

[miami_fan]

CANTON, Ohio -- First-year candidates Deion Sanders, Curtis Martin, Marshall Faulk, Jerome Bettis and Willie Roaf are among 15 modern-era finalists who will be considered for induction into the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

The Hall of Fame's selection committee will meet on Saturday, Feb. 5, the day before the Super Bowl.

The other finalists: Tim Brown, Cris Carter, Dermontti Dawson, Richard Dent, Chris Doleman, Charles Haley, Cortez Kennedy, Andre Reed, Ed Sabol and Shannon Sharpe.

Selected in August as senior nominees are former Redskins linebacker Chris Hanburger and former Rams linebacker Les Richter.

The Hall announced 113 modern-era nominees in September. That group was cut down to 25 in November.

A minimum of four and maximum of seven new members will be selected.

Information from The Associated Press was used in this report.

Who do you think should/will get in? Without doing any research , I say Deion Sanders, Cris Carter, Marshall Faulk, Ed Sabol, Shannon Sharpe will get in.


Still no Ray Guy huh?

[Sun Tzu]

How the hell is Roger Craig not listed?

[stevew]

Craig made the cutdown to 25, but not to 15.

[kingfc22]

Craig made the cutdown to 25, but not to 15.

Yup. He was a finalist last year, but didn't make it this year. :(

I don't recall, but do they release the voting numbers from this stage at any point?

[Sun Tzu]

Incredible...the guy was among the most dangerous and versatile backs in the league for the majority of his career and he can't even make finalist.

[CU Tiger]

Prime Time, Marshall Faulk and Roaf should be locks

[Warhammer]

I don't know if Craig or Martin should make the Hall based on that list. Carter, Sanders, Faulk, Roaf and Sabol would be my 5.

[Matthean]

Ed Sabol

About time. This means he actually gets his case for the Hall heard.

[Warhammer]

Incredible...the guy was among the most dangerous and versatile back in the league for the majority of his career and he can't even make finalist.

Craig was not the most dangerous back in the league. You had Walker, Dorsett, Payton, Dickerson, Allen, Thomas, Sanders, and Smith all ahead of Craig at any given point in his career. He was a very good back, but probably not a HoFer. I've really come around on this considering all the other great backs you had at the time.

[kingfc22]

My ballot would be Deion, Faulk, Roaf, Sharpe, and Sabol.

Edit: Carter comes in at a close 6th. Forgot the ballot is for 5 only.

[Warhammer]

About time. This means he actually gets his case for the Hall heard.

Without Sabol and NFL Films, the NFL would not be where it is today. I blame a large part of why I am not as big a fan now is the dearth of NFL Films material coming out now. Even the follies they do now are a mere shadow of what they were 15-20 years ago.

[CU Tiger]

Incredible...the guy was among the most dangerous and versatile back in the league for the majority of his career and he can't even make finalist.

I dont think anyone would make the claim based on his pure running ability, where he ranks 36th All Time in rushing yards.

He was only a 4 time pro bowler

He is 44th in all time rushing TDs

His best season ever in terms of all purpose yards ('88) ranks 91st in terms of best seasons ever. And is bested by efforts from Ted Gin Jr.

He is 52nd all time in all purpose yards and 35th all time in yards from scrimmage.

Nothing screams HOF to me...Id say Craig was much luckier to have been a 49er than the 49ers were to have Craig.

[bhlloy]

My ballot would be Deion, Faulk, Roaf, Sharpe, Sabol and a likely vote for Carter.

This is exactly my thought process... one of those 6 is going to have to be left out and probably Carter has to wait another year. Sharpe has to get in this year, he defined the position for 10+ years.

Haven't we done the Ray Guy argument to death enough in years past? Not in a billion years. Craig is probably another story, but there are a lot of very good players in that 15.

[Warhammer]

Geez, I thought that said Sterling Sharpe, not Shannon. I'd probably drop Roaf from my ballot and insert Sharpe.

[stevew]

Roaf, Dawson, Sanders, Faulk and Sharpe.

Remember, you can only vote for 5.

[stevew]

Incredible...the guy was among the most dangerous and versatile backs in the league for the majority of his career and he can't even make finalist.

Martin, Faulk and Bettis have a more worthy case than he does at this point. There's a solid chance he will make the final 15 if some of those guys get in. He'll make it eventually, even if it's a veterans committee thing.

[saldana]

faulk, sharpe, martin, brown, and haley would be my five.

there is no way deion sanders is a hall of fame player IMO...yes he was good...yes he was a dangerous player and was the first "lockdown" corner, but he couldnt tackle anyone. i think peoples recollection of him is seriously skewed by the fact that he was "prime time"...no one had been nearly as flashy as he was.

his interception numbers are good (54 over 13 seasons) and his touchdown to interception ratio is sick..he returned 9 of the 54...but by ratio, Ronde Barber is just as good....does that mean Ronde Barber a first ballot HoFer?

[Pumpy Tudors]

I want Charles Haley to get in just to see if he whips it out during his induction speech.

[saldana]

dola...the first player in the history of the league to have more than 1000 yards rushing and 1000 yard receiving in a single season (as a fullback!) and is 35th on the all time rushing list and 36th on the all time yards from scrimmage list is much more of a hall of famer (and before anyone says i am pushing Craig cause im a niners fan, notice he actually isnt on my list)

[saldana]

I want Charles Haley to get in just to see if he whips it out during his induction speech.

so you want to see Charles Haley's cock...and i am the one with a question as to my gender?

[saldana]

how am i the only one saying tim brown...4th all time in receptions and receiving yards, 6th in receiving TDs, 9 pro bowls, 5th in punt return yards, and 28th all time in games played.

no...thats not a a hall of fame resume at all:confused:

[Matthean]

how am i the only one saying tim brown...4th all time in receptions and receiving yards, 6th in receiving TDs, 9 pro bowls, 5th in punt return yards, and 28th all time in games played.

no...thats not a a hall of fame resume at all:confused:

Only 7 of the top 40 WRs in terms of receptions are in the Hall.

[Pumpy Tudors]

so you want to see Charles Haley's cock...and i am the one with a question as to my gender?
This would be less than funny if it had come from anyone but you. Since it's you, it's hilarious. You got me. :D

[JPhillips]

About time. This means he actually gets his case for the Hall heard.

+1 billion.

The Sabols and NFL films have been instrumental in marketing the NFL and preserving the history of the league. It's damn near criminal they haven't been enshrined yet.

[stevew]

Limiting it to 5 people enshrined, and including owners with players and contributors is stupid. It should be something like 7 players, 2 contributors and 2 veterans max.

One of these days I'm going to go.

[Surtt]

how am i the only one saying tim brown...4th all time in receptions and receiving yards, 6th in receiving TDs, 9 pro bowls, 5th in punt return yards, and 28th all time in games played.

no...thats not a a hall of fame resume at all:confused:
Brown is deserving and will get in.
But I don't see how you can elect him ahead of Cris Carter, especially after making Carter wait.

[MajikMan77]

Sabol / Sharpe / Carter / Roaf would be my big four with Brown / Dawson and Doleman filling the full seven.

[bhlloy]

Sabol / Sharpe / Carter / Roaf would be my big four with Brown / Dawson and Doleman filling the full seven.

No Marshall Faulk?

[CU Tiger]

there is no way deion sanders is a hall of fame player IMO...yes he was good...yes he was a dangerous player and was the first "lockdown" corner, but he couldnt tackle anyone. i think peoples recollection of him is seriously skewed by the fact that he was "prime time"...no one had been nearly as flashy as he was.

his interception numbers are good (54 over 13 seasons) and his touchdown to interception ratio is sick..he returned 9 of the 54...but by ratio, Ronde Barber is just as good....does that mean Ronde Barber a first ballot HoFer?

You get into some advanced metrics, but his Int per times thrown at is the best in league history and its not real close. For 5 years teams simply didnt throw at Deion. He was single handedly the differnce between Dal and SF in 93/94/95...and dont forget his return ability either.

Deion Sanders to Ronde Barber is Roger Craig to Jim Brown, Walter Payton, or Emmitt Smith.

[saldana]

You get into some advanced metrics, but his Int per times thrown at is the best in league history and its not real close. For 5 years teams simply didnt throw at Deion. He was single handedly the differnce between Dal and SF in 93/94/95...and dont forget his return ability either.

Deion Sanders to Ronde Barber is Roger Craig to Jim Brown, Walter Payton, or Emmitt Smith.

again, i am not necessarily saying craig should be getting voted in, or that deion shouldnt ever...i am just saying deion had alot of hype around him and there are way more deserving guys on the ballot this year...and as far as returns numbers...tim brown was better.

[JPhillips]

Which reminds me, why the hell isn't Ken Riley in the Hall?

[saldana]

list of all time interception leaders...several guys on here that could actually make a tackle...1. Paul Krause+ 81 1964-1979 2TM
2. Emlen Tunnell+ 79 1948-1961 2TM
3. Rod Woodson+ 71 1987-2003 4TM
4. Night Train Lane+ 68 1952-1965 3TM
5. Ken Riley 65 1969-1983 cin
6. Darren Sharper (35) 63 1997-2010 3TM
Ronnie Lott+ 63 1981-1994 3TM
8. Dave Brown 62 1975-1989 3TM
Dick LeBeau+ 62 1959-1972 det
10. Emmitt Thomas+ 58 1966-1978 kan
11. Everson Walls 57 1981-1993 3TM
Johnny Robinson 57 1960-1971 kan
Eugene Robinson 57 1985-2000 4TM
Bobby Boyd 57 1960-1968 clt
Mel Blount+ 57 1970-1983 pit
16. Lem Barney+ 56 1967-1977 det
Pat Fischer 56 1961-1977 2TM
18. Aeneas Williams 55 1991-2004 2TM
19. Eric Allen 54 1988-2001 3TM
Willie Brown+ 54 1963-1978 2TM
Darrell Green+ 54 1983-2002 was
Ed Reed (32) 54 2002-2010 rav
23. Deion Sanders 53 1989-2005 5TM

[saldana]

Which reminds me, why the hell isn't Ken Riley in the Hall?

i was thinking more of Everson Walls or Eric Allen, but what the hell...Ken Riley for Canton starts right now!!!!

[Swaggs]

Kind of an odd class. Most of the finalists seem like Hall of Famers to me, but Sanders and Faulk are the only ones that feel like they should be first ballot (no questions asked) Hall of Famers. I think all of the first time guys belong and eventually get in.

Martin and Bettis are interesting because they are the #4 and #5 rushers of all-time, but neither really seems like a slam dunk Hall of Famer to me. For reference, every eligible top 20 rusher is in the Hall of Fame except #20 Ricky Watters (although #11 Edgerrin James and #15 Fred Taylor seem like they would have a tough time getting in when they become eligible, in my opinion).

List of National Football League rushing yards leaders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Football_League_rushing_yards_leaders)

[Warhammer]

I leave Martin off because while he compiled yards, he had way too many sub-4.0 YPC seasons. Ditto for Bettis, I am not of the mind to reward someone simply because they didn't get hurt.

[bhlloy]

I think Bettis and Martin definitely both deserve to be there eventually, they are just unfortunate that they will come up against really strong classes in their first couple of years of eligibility. Same goes for Tim Brown - can't deny that he's HOF material with those numbers, but who does he go ahead of?

[Swaggs]

Pretty amazing to have three of the top ten rushers in NFL history come up, as first timers, in the same season.

[CU Tiger]

and as far as returns numbers...tim brown was better.

Deion 5,722 return yards on 367 tries (15.6 ypr)
Tim Brown 4,555 return yards on 375 returns (12.1 ypr)
But just keep on thowing random thoughs out.

Apprx weighted value:
Deion 114
Tim Brown 104

Deion has 19 non offensive TDs first all time in NFL history. (But hester should pass him before its all done)
Deion is 23rd all time in INTs
But 4th All time in INT return yards.
First all time in Yards/INT of those with more than 5 INTs.
And 1st all time in INT/per times thrown at....more than double second place.

Again....I think Deion (and I HATE him as a player) is an All Time Great. So much so that if I am drafting an all time team he is probably in my top 10.

[sabotai]

Deion 5,722 return yards on 367 tries (15.6 ypr)
Tim Brown 4,555 return yards on 375 returns (12.1 ypr)
But just keep on thowing random thoughs out.

They keep Punt Return and Kick Return stats separate for a reason.

[CU Tiger]

They keep Punt Return and Kick Return stats separate for a reason.


Sure they do, but saldana's arument was "as far as return numbers tim brown was better" he didnt specify either type of return and since both returned punts and kicks equally I figured it was most clear to use the combined numbers, as they keep combind numbers also.

But to apease you and break them out:

Tim Brown
Punt 326 for 3320 (10.2 ypr) 1 TD
KO 41 for 1098 (26.8 ypr) 3 TD

Deion Sanders
Punt 212 for 2199 (10.4 ypr) 6 TD
KO 155 for 3523 (22.7 ypr) 3 TD

So Deion avrages slightly more yards per return on punts while scoring 5 more TDs (significant because the TD limits the number of yards)
While Tim averaged 4 more yards per KO return on a quarter of the number of returns.

At best its a wash. I still say the overall edge goes to Deion. I dont think anyone would objectively look at those numbers and say "as far as return numbers Tim Brown was better."

Again most significantly I think, pro football reference rates Deion as te 56th best player since 1950 and Tim Brown as the 100th. There are 22 WRs in the top 250 and 3 CBs.

[JAG]

there is no way deion sanders is a hall of fame player IMO...yes he was good...yes he was a dangerous player and was the first "lockdown" corner, but he couldnt tackle anyone. i think peoples recollection of him is seriously skewed by the fact that he was "prime time"...no one had been nearly as flashy as he was.

his interception numbers are good (54 over 13 seasons) and his touchdown to interception ratio is sick..he returned 9 of the 54...but by ratio, Ronde Barber is just as good....does that mean Ronde Barber a first ballot HoFer?

Not that one game means anything, but I recall a game Dallas had vs. Washington where Deion tackled Stephen Davis for a four yard loss (if you can call it a tackle, as I recall he kind of threw his body at him using horrific technique). I found an article that referenced it, apparently he came back from a concussion and had a punt return for a TD that game as well. http://amarillo.com/stories/1999/10/26/spo_LS0473.001.shtml

I don't have any advanced stats to say how good he was compared with other corners, but his reputation amongst a number of people knowledgeable is as one of the greatest shutdown CBs of all-time, in addition to being a dangerous return man and even an infrequent contributor as a WR.

For what it's worth, I don't think Ronde Barber is a first ballot HoFer, but I think he should be in the HoF someday as the anti-Deion, a great all-around CB.

[saldana]

Deion 5,722 return yards on 367 tries (15.6 ypr)
Tim Brown 4,555 return yards on 375 returns (12.1 ypr)
But just keep on thowing random thoughs out.


my numbers referred to punt returns, not punt returns and kick returns combined....brown only had one season where he did both (and btw, he led the league with a 26.8 ypr avg on kickoffs)

[CU Tiger]

my numbers referred to punt returns, not punt returns and kick returns combined....brown only had one season where he did both (and btw, he led the league with a 26.8 ypr avg on kickoffs)

Then check out post 40 Deion was a better punt returner than TB...

[stevew]

The case against Prime Time.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/KJWSm13LBh8?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/KJWSm13LBh8?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

[AlexB]

Sanders, Faulk, Kennedy, Sharpe, Dent/Haley

[Pumpy Tudors]

I can't believe Larry Centers didn't make the final cut. Would Deion Sanders tackle Larry Centers? No. Put Larry Centers in. Would Deion Sanders intercept a pass intended for Larry Centers? No. Deion wouldn't get that far into the backfield. Put Larry Centers in. This should be really easy, and people are making it difficult. If I ever go to Canton, I'm going to light it on fire.

[Jughead Spock]

I don't like Deion, and he was obviously not a run-stopper - but he absolutely shut down one half of the field. Kinda like Nnamdi today, his INT numbers probably aren't as great as they could be because teams just would not throw at him. No-brainer HOF'er to me.

'No-brainer' works on two levels here.

[spleen1015]

You have to put Sharpe in. He is the best ever at his position.

Sabol due to him being a pioneer.

Sanders, Carter and Brown.

[MikeVic]

I can't believe Larry Centers didn't make the final cut. Would Deion Sanders tackle Larry Centers? No. Put Larry Centers in. Would Deion Sanders intercept a pass intended for Larry Centers? No. Deion wouldn't get that far into the backfield. Put Larry Centers in. This should be really easy, and people are making it difficult. If I ever go to Canton, I'm going to light it on fire.

What about Mack Strong? If Centers is in, Strong has to be. But then that means Mike Alstott has to be. And then that means Peyton Hillis. Do you want that kind of Canton Pumpy?

[bhlloy]

I'm sorry, I don't see how anyone can leave out Marshall Faulk. 4th all time in yards from scrimmage. 7th in TD. Only player ever with 10,000 rushing and 6,000 receiving. 7 pro-bowls and an MVP.

If that's not a first ballot guy, just shut the damn thing down.

[sabotai]

Sure they do, but saldana's arument was "as far as return numbers tim brown was better" he didnt specify either type of return and since both returned punts and kicks equally I figured it was most clear to use the combined numbers, as they keep combind numbers also.

But to apease you and break them out:

Tim Brown
Punt 326 for 3320 (10.2 ypr) 1 TD
KO 41 for 1098 (26.8 ypr) 3 TD

Deion Sanders
Punt 212 for 2199 (10.4 ypr) 6 TD
KO 155 for 3523 (22.7 ypr) 3 TD

And after looking at them, you honestly can not understand why adding the punt and kickoff returns together and comparing averages is a terrible use of statistics?

[Alan T]

Pretty deep group to choose from. Could easily pick out 7-8 people.

Top 5 probably have to be: Faulk, Sharpe, Roaf, Carter, Sanders

[Pumpy Tudors]

What about Mack Strong? If Centers is in, Strong has to be. But then that means Mike Alstott has to be. And then that means Peyton Hillis. Do you want that kind of Canton Pumpy?
Yes, I do! Let's get Lorenzo Neal and Tom Rathman in there, too.

[Glengoyne]

Roaf, Faulk, Sabol, Sharpe, Haley

Tim Brown is a better candidate to me than Chris Carter. I might even be convinced to go with Brown over Haley. I was a fan of both Carter and Brown, but I think Brown gets the edge.

Deion will probably make it, but he falls well down on my list...somewhere south of Ray Guy. Guy should be in. Deion, probably not for now.

Edited because Probably not for Deion just isn't right. He does belong...I just cant put him in as a first timer.

[MikeVic]

Yes, I do! Let's get Lorenzo Neal and Tom Rathman in there, too.

OK I agree on Rathman.

[CU Tiger]

And after looking at them, you honestly can not understand why adding the punt and kickoff returns together and comparing averages is a terrible use of statistics?


Not sure why I am having to defend this post so much.
He said as far as return numbers Bown was better.
I didnt add anything I used the total return stat from PFR.
Frankly I was never a TB fan and didnt know what he returned when, I didnt research it to that level I just grabbed the combined numbers and posted it. Then I was asked to break it down, which I did and clealry Deion still compares very favorably.

I'm not going to continue this circular argument.

TO ME Sanders, Faulk, and Roaf are LOCK 1st ballot top 5 all time at their position first ballot guys. If anyone else disagrees,ok. I think I have supported my point adequately. If anyone has a counter argument we can debate, to continue to question how the data was presented when it has now been displayed both broken down and compiled and both support the same player is a strange tactic.

[CU Tiger]

OK I agree on Rathman.


Then Moose Johnston HAS to get in.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Then Moose Johnston HAS to get in.

You mean he isn't already? Good grief, that's an omission that's R&R HOF level of bad.

[JAG]

You mean he isn't already? Good grief, that's an omission that's R&R HOF level of bad.

I don't believe he's ever even been a serious candidate alas.

Tough group to choose from, I feel pretty certain a pass rusher will get picked this year. So I'll go with Faulk, Sanders, Sharpe, Sabol, and either Dent or Haley.

[GCCSteel]

As to Larry Centers, Mike Alstott, Moose, and also Linemen in general...they are always hard to value properly with skill positions. We are sitting here valuing receptions, yards, TDs for skill positions. What do we have to value a good blocking fullback or guard, for that matter? Do catches and rushing yards determine how good at picking up backers on the second level they were?

This always upsets me come pro bowl time, when a guy like Alstott gets in because of his 800 rushing yards when he couldn't block near as well as some other contemporaries. Perfect example, McClain for the Ravens got in last year because of his rushing yards...he lined up in the HALFBACK position for the majority of those yards.

Pure, unadultered filth.

[MajikMan77]

No Marshall Faulk?

He would likely be in the following year. I'd also be campaigning to get Ray Guy in the HoF. Too many guys looked over year in year out for my liking. Thats why I picked Carter as I thought he should have gone in right away.

[Pumpy Tudors]

As to Larry Centers, Mike Alstott, Moose, and also Linemen in general...they are always hard to value properly with skill positions. We are sitting here valuing receptions, yards, TDs for skill positions. What do we have to value a good blocking fullback or guard, for that matter? Do catches and rushing yards determine how good at picking up backers on the second level they were?

This always upsets me come pro bowl time, when a guy like Alstott gets in because of his 800 rushing yards when he couldn't block near as well as some other contemporaries. Perfect example, McClain for the Ravens got in last year because of his rushing yards...he lined up in the HALFBACK position for the majority of those yards.

Pure, unadultered filth.
I'm glad somebody here was able to figure out that I was completely serious with my call for Larry Centers.

[sabotai]

If anyone else disagrees,ok. I think I have supported my point adequately. If anyone has a counter argument we can debate, to continue to question how the data was presented when it has now been displayed both broken down and compiled and both support the same player is a strange tactic.

You're misunderstanding my replies. I am not disagreeing with you, not making a counter-argument and not using any "tactic". I also did not ask you to break them down (I am capable of looking up stats myself). I was simply pointing out that using the average of the combined attempts and yardage between Punt Returns and Kickoff Returns can not be used to compare overall return ability (except in the extremely rare, probably has never happened scenario where both players had the same exact ratio of KO returns to Punt returns). Doing that will always greatly favor the player who has a higher ratio of Kick Off Returns to Punt Returns.

[miami_fan]

HOF announcement show tonight at 7et

[miami_fan]

Very happy Ed Sabol made it this year!

[stevew]

Dent, Sabol, Sharpe, Sanders and Faulk.

[Senator]

Good job Ed Sabol. You made my youth so damn fun!

[JPhillips]

My only complaint would be that Ed and Steve should go in as a pair, but it's about time the HOF gave the Sabols the recognition they are due.

[Senator]

Maybe Steve will get the nod in about 30 years the way this thing works.

[Grammaticus]

I'm glad Dent made it. I think he deserves it.

[oykib]

Was Dent better at what he did than Carter was at what he did?

Dent is a deserving HOFer. But does he deserve to go in now?

[Warhammer]

Agreed. I am not sure this is the best year for Dent to get in. The other issue I have with Dent is after 86 or 87, I don't remember hearing about him all that much. I remember sometime in 92 or 93 thinking, "is he still playing?"

I don't think of HoFers in that light typically.

[miked]

Roaf got the hose.