Revolution(s) in the Arabian World

[whomario]

Anybody following this ? Has made for big news over here (in part because Tunesia and Egypt are major vacation targets for germans) and i personally find it quite uplifting to see, although one has to be realistic and fear that it´s only going to result in a lateral move as far as the political and social structure is concerned.
Still, it is quite astonishing how quickly it is spreading (Jordan now hit with protests, the Libanon has been in a state of chaos for the last couple weeks) and how sudden this all is coming (from what i know).

Also, i have booked a journey to egypt (7 days on the nile, 2 days cairo) months ago that is supposed to start next Thursday and that has me in real limbo as i´m really not sure what to hope for here ... Avtually i do hope they are able to make some changes, worst case i´ll fly elsewhere afterall, but best would be if the government would just cave in quick.

AFP: At least '1,000 arrested' in Egypt protests (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jf66T3Gd5XYFWO-1ycSJ4r8s2Beg?docId=CNG.391be13f5003e921395f959c27eff5e6.3e1)

As Arabs protest, U.S. speaks up (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/26/AR2011012608075.html)

[lungs]

What does the opposition represent in these countries? Are they left-wing? Are they fundamentalist? Or are they a coalition of many views that just want to overthrow the status quo?

I guess I'm not that clear on that part. And judging by the little play it's getting in American news, I guess most Americans don't give a shit. Until the word al-Qaeda gets mentioned.

[JPhillips]

I'm sure their are organizations in the background of various ideologies, but it's largely driven by people fed up with decades of autocratic rule.

edit: A lot of people saw the government in Tunisia fall and it gave them the courage to protest.

[whomario]

In Tunisia there is no real head-figure as far as i know, in Egypt there might be El Baradei who was the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency of the United Nations for a long time (and got the Noble Peace Prize in 05 for his work there) and has been asked and endorsed by multiple oposition groups to run against Mubarak in the upcoming election.
However, this is all but impossible due to a couple of articles in the Egyptian constitution, mainly No76 ( Egypt’s Government Services Portal - Egypt Constitution - Chapter Five (http://www.egypt.gov.eg/english/laws/Constitution/chp_five/part_one.aspx) )
There has been formed a loose grouping of most oposition groups , headed by him : National Association for Change - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Association_for_Change)

Egypt is also under Emergency Law for 30 years now, just in 2007 there have been passed a couple laws that make your hairs stand up (under the claim of being anti-terrorism they are really just another tool to imprison people) ...


However, the protest did not get started by that organisation, although it´s very likely that the protesters have ElBaradei and the grouping in mind when it comes to a replacement.

EDIT : Just read that ElBaradei is actually headed for Cairo just now and will likely participate in demonstrations tomorrow which are scheduled after the Friday Prayer just after noon.

[Toddzilla]

"nuke 'em to asphalt" comment from JiMGa in 3....2....

[JonInMiddleGA]

"nuke 'em to asphalt" comment from JiMGa in 3....2....

Not until they weed each other out some. Even targeting priorities could change depending on how things turn out.

[JediKooter]

I think it will end with some harsh crack downs by the hardliners and then it will go away just like the stuff in Iran.

[gstelmack]

Not until they weed each other out some. Even targeting priorities could change depending on how things turn out.

I just finished "Without Warning" by John Birmingham. That scifi book might be right up your alley. Fun read. Premise is that if most of the US basically disappears, what would happen to the rest of the world?

[DanGarion]

What does the opposition represent in these countries? Are they left-wing? Are they fundamentalist? Or are they a coalition of many views that just want to overthrow the status quo?

I guess I'm not that clear on that part. And judging by the little play it's getting in American news, I guess most Americans don't give a shit. Until the word al-Qaeda gets mentioned.

Listen to NPR they have been talking about it quite a bit. Mainstream media is shit. IMO.

[lungs]

Yeah, I was mainly talking about Fox, CNN, MSNBC, etc...

I use BBC news to get an idea what's going on elsewhere.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Be nice if it were to happen in Iran. Maybe they could get rid of the name too & go back to being Persia. Persia > Iran. But Mesopotamia > Iraq & we haven't seen that yet.

[Passacaglia]

Wouldn't Babylon be a more appropriate name, instead of Mesopotamia?

[Butter]

El Baradei apparently under arrest now, and the government has shut down the internet.

I'd like to know how you shut down the internet to everybody, seems a nifty trick.

[Chief Rum]

El Baradei apparently under arrest now, and the government has shut down the internet.

I'd like to know how you shut down the internet to everybody, seems a nifty trick.

Apparently just about all Internet traffic in Egypt goes through four companies, and the government has the ability to go on those four networks and shut them down.

Yay freedom.

[whomario]

mobile phone companies have been forced to shut down as well

ElBaradei not arrested per se yet but forced to stay in a confined area of the city ...

Police got the green light to open fire on demonstrants ... This is all messed up ...

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Yay freedom.

Internet 'kill switch' bill will return | Privacy Inc. - CNET News (http://news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-20029282-281.html)

[whomario]

Police forces in Alexandria now aparently stopped fighting the demonstrators, good news. Although it´s highly doubtfull this will happen in Cairo as well ...

Now the military is getting involved it seems, although as of now it seems that they are actually welcomed by the protestors and aren´t fighting them.

Government just announced a curfew from 6pm to 7am local time in Cairo, Alexandria and Suez ...

Hope the muslim brotherhood isn´t able to hijack theese protests and come out on top of it ...

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

http://i.imgur.com/Susxf.jpg

[JPhillips]

Al-Jazeera English live feed

http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/

[JAG]

They've got the Autocratic Regime Crackdown Playbook and they're running it step by step.

[JPhillips]

Amazing shots of protesters trying to tip a troop carrier into the Nile.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Mubarak has asked the army to take charge of security along with the police.

Protests in Egypt - live updates | News | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2011/jan/28/egypt-protests-live-updates)

[whomario]

Curfew officially in effect, protests are still going strong though.

I allways get a very strange feeling when i see theese sort of video, burning cars in the dark and all, very frightening ...

Now the headquarters of the president´s party are burning, wow ... I´m afraid this will get totally out of hand during the night :(

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I guess I always thought Egypt was a more open country when compared to other Muslim countries in regards to personal liberties. Apparently that's not the case.

[whomario]

Sincerely hope the military follows in the footstep of the tunisian military and protects the people and does not support the president nor stage a coup of themselves (that is deemed unlikely anyway). There´s actually been news from aljazeera and others that the military and the police have clashed allready.

Also, people on the streets are clearly embracing the military presence and even for the most hard-nosed solider/comander that ought to mean sth i am hoping. The fact that 3 hours after curfew there hasn´t been any actions taken really to seriously clear the streets makes me cautiously optimistic...

[mckerney]

http://i.imgur.com/ZNtKw.jpg

[DaddyTorgo]

I fear this is going to end up just like Iran. A lot of noise and no meaningful change.

[Neon_Chaos]

It will all depend on the military. If they stick with the President, this revolt will go nowhere.

[Neon_Chaos]

Also, the stakes are high for the US government. Egypt is one of its closest allies in the middle east. A regime change brings a lot of unknowns into play.

[whomario]

That bag of shit sure is not unsure of himself, i am afraid there´s no way in hell he´s stepping down quietly after hearing that speech just now. That guy is cold blooded ...
One sure can see why he waited so long, that speech has been done and redone dozens of times behind closed doors...

Does he really think anybody that protested is going to be calmed by him anouncing a new government ?

Also, from what i´ve heard there were multiple ministers that actually were popular within the public and did good work with reforms ...

[Flasch186]

I think I remember someone predicting a revolution and toppling of the regime in Iran....

Jus' Sayin Egypt's neighbor isn't Egypt.... although to see a wave of democracy sweep across Africa would be nice

[jeff061]

Egypt protests: America's secret backing for rebel leaders behind uprising - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/8289686/Egypt-protests-Americas-secret-backing-for-rebel-leaders-behind-uprising.html)

Just an interesting counter to the common "America doesn't want this" view point.

[Passacaglia]

Egypt's neighbor isn't Egypt

:confused:

[stevew]

They gotta get this shit in Tunesia settled so they can make Star Wars 7-9

[stevew]

dola-
I really don't need any more gas price increases.

[JPhillips]

I have a really bad feeling that Egypt is going to get very violent. Shutting down Al Jazeera and bringing in columns of tanks are very bad omens.

[whomario]

I have a really bad feeling that Egypt is going to get very violent. Shutting down Al Jazeera and bringing in columns of tanks are very bad omens.

the egyptian army released a statement today that the issues of the protestors are legitimate and that they would not use force against them which is at least some good news.
"The presence of the army in the streets is for your sake and to ensure your safety and wellbeing. The armed forces will not resort to use of force against our great people," the army statement said.
"Your armed forces, who are aware of the legitimacy of your demands and are keen to assume their responsibility in protecting the nation and the citizens, affirms that freedom of expression through peaceful means is guaranteed to everybody."


still no internet, the piece of shit also suspended all train travel today ...

[whomario]

absolutely amazing what has happened today, don´t you think ? Didn´t believe it would develop that way, glad to see it has gotten more peaceful rather than more chaotic.
Hope they somehow carry this over to a time where Mubarak is gone and not struggle as much as some fear will happen.

Find it great that all organised groups work together (like those flyers handed out with all groups adressing the people) yet it still not being orchestrated or misused for an agenda (well, other than wanting mubarak gone ;) ), little stories like people share food and drink, doing their own security checks. Heck, even organising a soccer tournament on Tahrir square.

[molson]

absolutely amazing what has happened today, don´t you think ? Didn´t believe it would develop that way, glad to see it has gotten more peaceful rather than more chaotic.
Hope they somehow carry this over to a time where Mubarak is gone and not struggle as much as some fear will happen.

Find it great that all organised groups work together (like those flyers handed out with all groups adressing the people) yet it still not being orchestrated or misused for an agenda (well, other than wanting mubarak gone ;) ), little stories like people share food and drink, doing their own security checks. Heck, even organising a soccer tournament on Tahrir square.

So what's the status of your trip?

[JonInMiddleGA]

I sure hope whatever eventually replaces Mubarak turns as well as most people seem to be expecting.

That just seems awfully naive to me.

[ISiddiqui]

Glad to see events in Egypt unfolding the way they have. The protests have been peaceful and pulling from all walks of life.

It isn't about whatever comes about being all unicorns and rainbows, but, based on Egyptian society, I'd imagine just about any leadership would be better than Mubarak.

[JediKooter]

They should bring back the Pharaoh system.

[JonInMiddleGA]

but, based on Egyptian society, I'd imagine just about any leadership would be better than Mubarak.

...Two effigies of Mubarak dangled from traffic lights. On their chests was written: "We want to put the murderous president on trial." Their faces were scrawled with the Star of David, an allusion to many protesters' feeling that Mubarak is a friend of Israel

Yeah, about that imagination of yours ...

[whomario]

So what's the status of your trip?


long cancelled (as are all trips universally, no one flying to egypt anymore from germany). Actually like it better that way, rather go next year and actually enjoy my stay and get to see everything there is.


Of course it is naive the way the people there aproach this , but what do you expect ? Maybe it´s stupid not to accept the compromises offered to them now, but it´s consequent.

...Two effigies of Mubarak dangled from traffic lights. On their chests was written: "We want to put the murderous president on trial." Their faces were scrawled with the Star of David, an allusion to many protesters' feeling that Mubarak is a friend of Israel

Yeah, about that imagination of yours ...

you realize that this is by all accounts a very, very small minority ? All reports are stressing how little political or religious hardline-gestures are seen on the streets.
99% of this is absolutely unrelated to anything in that regard.

[ISiddiqui]

Two effigies = the entire society. I see.

[molson]

Their faces were scrawled with the Star of David, an allusion to many protesters' feeling that Mubarak is a friend of Israel[/i]


Interesting, so maybe they want a president that will go back to invading Israel every 10 years and losing land every time.

[ISiddiqui]

Regardless, a new government may be colder towards Israel, but I doubt they are going to be starting any wars anytime soon. I don't see that as a negative, mind.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Interesting, so maybe they want a president that will go back to invading Israel every 10 years and losing land every time.

Granted. Maybe it's really just a ploy funded by the mapmaking industry to jumpstart sales of new maps ;)

[JonInMiddleGA]

l[quote] All reports are stressing how little political or religious hardline-gestures are seen on the streets.

The key there is "seen on the streets". These particular masses don't lack for some philosophy behind their actions any more than any other gathering. After the generic feel good of "we want things to change" ends, then the real business of governing begins. Surely no one believes that the campaign for (future) power isn't taking place in more discreet locations simultaneously with the masses gathering in the streets.

[whomario]

His speech-writers definitely earned their paychecks ... But did i imagine it or did he actually promise to nullify the articles 76, 77 which were among the main goals for the political parties among the protestors ?

Guess that 2 weeks ago he would have had a chance with that.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Noting for future reference that one of those cited as a key figure is Iranian apologist (and former director of the IAEA) ElBaradei. Fills me with confidence, yessiree.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Note to American reporters who are getting their ass kicked by crowds and wondering what they did to deserve it.......

You're an American reporter in a Muslim country with a whole lot of unemployed, pissed off mobs in the streets. All rules are out the window.

[Galaxy]

Note to American reporters who are getting their ass kicked by crowds and wondering what they did to deserve it.......

You're an American reporter in a Muslim country with a whole lot of unemployed, pissed off mobs in the streets. All rules are out the window.

The protesters seem friendly to them. It's the President's gang/staged protesters that is turning on the violence.

[Galaxy]

Looks like it's getting ugly now. It'll be interested to see how the WH responds now.

[cartman]

Looks like it's getting ugly now. It'll be interested to see how the WH responds now.

U.S. Negotiating Mubarak's Severance Package | The Onion - America's Finest News Source (http://www.theonion.com/articles/us-negotiating-mubaraks-severance-package,19037/)

[Fidatelo]

Got the following two emails from an Egyptian (former) co-worker of mine (the first came yesterday afternoon, the second came this morning):

"I am sorry to use this mailing list for a political topic, but we here in Cairo need all support we can. What I will list here is what I have seen with my own eyes today in Tahrir Square.
Today we were discussing if we will trust Mubarak's statements with two groups, I was pro going back home and leaving a sympolic camp to allow normal flow in Egypt. Towards the middle of the day Pro Mubarak demos strted entering Tahrir Square, we rushed to peacifuly stand and defend the square. For around 30 minutes it was just chants. A group of Mubarak supporters split, and naiively I thought that this was a sign of chaos in the pro Mubarak group and the demos will end soon. Suddenly stones came from what seems to be the split group, I can't confirm that it was them, but it seems that stones coming from their side on the bigger Mubarak's supporters, and clashes started and lasted for a while untill a point of calmness where we though the end of the violence. We began chanting "We are all Egyptians" when suddenly a group of people riding horses and camels stormed towards us beating the demonstrators merlicelessy re-igniting the clashes. We have caught a police officer in civilian clothes and a group of employees in the government claiming that they were directed to end the demos in Tahrir or else they will not receive their salaries.
The organizers of the anti-regime protests were extremely cautious not to use violence. To join the group I had to be searched multiple times to make sure I or anyone carries any weapons of any sort, but the regime wanted violence. I just hope that you can support us by spreading the word and if you can pressure your governments to act on ending this oppressive regime.
We have Microsoft Egypt employees and local community activists among the demonstrators. Wael Ghoneim, Google's marketing manager who is also an activist has been missing since Thursday. Please help us end the oppression.
Best Regards,"

"Thank you very much for your support, it means a lot to me. I understand that it may be difficult for you to understand what we are suffering so let me briefly tell you what we are subjected to

- It started on Jan 25 through demonstrations organized primarily through social networks
- Some clashes in the city of Suez left 3 dead fueling more anger
- Groups called for a day of anger on Jan 28th, the regime responded by blocking ALL internet access and ALL wireless communications
- Despite of the unprecedented actions on Jan 28 around 1 million demonstrators in Cairo alone went to the streets confronted by brutal force that left 300 dead as reported by human rights groups, while the official numbers are 73
- The regime changed the tactic by taking all the people as hostage. The army went to the street enforcing a 14-16 hour curfew. The police completely disappeared from the streets unleashing criminals from some prisons to induce fear among the public and blaming the protestors through public TV, also all banks have been closed and some government employee salaries have been delayed.
- Consistently accusing the protesters of being funded by foreign sources, and claiming that foreign agents have been arrests to justify actions against foreign reporters.
- Fueling yesterday's clashes that included Molotov cocktails and some gun fires killing at least 5 demonstrators. Many secret police officers and detectives have been caught by demonstrators proving direct government involvement in yesterday's clashes.
- Today's tactic has changed by using smaller groups of thugs to prevent entry of medical and food aid to demonstrators.
- Today is relatively calm but the situation is likely to explode tomorrow."

[whomario]

Note to American reporters who are getting their ass kicked by crowds and wondering what they did to deserve it.......

You're an American reporter in a Muslim country with a whole lot of unemployed, pissed off mobs in the streets. All rules are out the window.

Is that how it is/was being portrayed over in the US ? To me it´s fairly clear that all this has still nothing to do with religion. Not the protests, not the counter-attacks by the protestors/plain-cloth police people/hired thugs, not the attacks on journalists (seriously, there are tons of reports of attacks on muslim journalists being attacked).

It´s strange how a lot of folk refuse to grant muslim people the ability to protest/fight with a political agenda.

Of course there will be attempts by conservative muslim forces to take advantage, but as a whole this thing has very little to do with religion right now. Which wouldn´t be any different if such uproar would happen in the US, you could bet that certain elements would try to use it as an excuse to get rid of non-christians or immigrants.

Heck, theres also many reports of christians and muslims supporting each other during the protests.

Very ugly day yesterday, not a ton better today but a little bit. Really damn near impossible to get a read on the situation but it seems very plausible when people say that those pro-mubarak groups are well too organized, prepared and equiped to deny there´s some involvement of people connected to power, to put it lightly ...

edit : ah the timing, thanks for posting that @ Fidatello

[JonInMiddleGA]

... but it seems very plausible when people say that those pro-mubarak groups are well too organized, prepared and equiped to deny there´s some involvement of people connected to power, to put it lightly ...

Really more of a general observation here, Egypt just happens to provide the most current example but ... exactly what sort of idiot would someone have to be to not try to stay in power?

I mean, never mind any personal gain or whatever, at an even more basic level I don't picture an overwhelming majority of rulers who are facing the prospect of being deposed as sitting around thinking "y'know, we really do suck, so this is probably for the best".

There are certainly some pure profiteers out there, I'm not disputing that. Just saying that there also seems to be a camp that would fall into something like "yeah, I'm getting rich but I'm also a much better alternative for the country than X or Y". Just seems unnatural to somehow think they should just step aside quietly when even strong winds blow against them, I don't really believe all of them believe they're really bad by comparison.

[Rizon]

Looks like it's getting ugly now. It'll be interested to see how the WH responds now.

AC got rolled on. I thought it was kind of funny.

[albionmoonlight]

Pic of Christians in Egypt protecting Muslims during their prayers:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/.a/6a00d83451c45669e20148c84cc04f970c-800wi

[molson]

Mubarak claims he wants to resign immediately but is worried about the country falling into chaos if he does.

BBC News - Egypt unrest: Hosni Mubarak warns of chaos if he quits (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12361948)

That sounds silly at first, as if there's no chaos at the moment, but I think he has a point. What happens if there's a sudden power vacuum in Egypt? We could move pretty quickly from moderately violent protests to war. The news paints a picture of the entire country engulfed by riots but that isn't reality, yet.

[ISiddiqui]

LOL! I like that. I'd like to resign, but then the country would fall into chaos... isn't that the reason a Vice President was just recently put into place? So that he could proceed over an orderly transition?

[Chief Rum]

LOL! I like that. I'd like to resign, but then the country would fall into chaos... isn't that the reason a Vice President was just recently put into place? So that he could proceed over an orderly transition?

Except, isn't the new VP disliked even more than Mubarak?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Except, isn't the new VP disliked even more than Mubarak?

Or at least equally? That seemed to be the take I saw when he was named, somethign to the effect that he was just a Mubarak pawn, that he was not acceptable as a successor, blah blah blah.

[molson]

In fact, the protesters seem to be demanding a power vacuum, rather than any particular presidential replacement. There's no leader of this opposition that they're trying to put into power.

[lighthousekeeper]

Beware the camel's nose.

[JPhillips]

In fact, the protesters seem to be demanding a power vacuum, rather than any particular presidential replacement. There's no leader of this opposition that they're trying to put into power.

Isn't that true with most democratic revolts? Who did the French want in charge? Who did Americans want in charge? In a lot of ways I think it's much more healthy to not coalesce around a cult of personality.

[Galaxy]

I just found it weird that the military is basically sitting on the sideline (literally) of these uprisings.

Wouldn't, you a soldier that is sitting on a tank, want to try to use the power you have to try to reduce the violence? They seem to back the Anti-government protesters.

[JPhillips]

Not if the military leaders are trying to find a way to keep the military in charge.

[Galaxy]

Not if the military leaders are trying to find a way to keep the military in charge.

Yeah I know. It's just strange.

[whomario]

http://c0013629.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/x2_45e63d1

:(

i agree that the situation is very strange. Right now it seems though as if the military will get more today and that on the side of the pro-democracy supporters. Right now the minister of defense and multiple leading military people are visiting Tahrir square to get an overview on the situation and logistics.
It is also pretty strange that it still is such a small amount of soldiers, considering the resources of the egyptian army this is hardly more than that :confused: Seems they are still struggling to decided what to actually do and this way they can say they can´t do much with such little personell.

The muslim brotherhood also stated they won´t enter a candidate for the presidential selection.

Today after the friday prayer (starting in about half an hour) the protesters plan to do marches from all mosques back to Tahrir square as well as to the state TV station and the parliament. Walking to the presidiential palace hasn´t been mentioned but who knows ...


also, as far as i know the vice president isn´t (or rather wasn´t) disliked per se, it´s just that he was apointed by Mubarak at the time he was. Had he been apointed 2 years ago people would have cheered and would Mubarak have stepped down i guess he would have been on the list of persons that the oposition would have tried to get on board for the transition-period.
But the way it happened was just ridiculous. Also, some of the ministers Mubarak fired last saturday were actually well-liked by the public and were definitely not high on the list of "people that have to go"...

As

[whomario]

Pic of Christians in Egypt protecting Muslims during their prayers:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/.a/6a00d83451c45669e20148c84cc04f970c-800wi

via aljazeera blog just now :

12:35pm: Our correspondent in Alexandria says tens of thousands of people have gathered in the centre of Alexandria. He says Christians and others not performing Friday prayers have formed a "human chain" around those praying to protect them from any potential disruptions.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The muslim brotherhood also stated they won´t enter a candidate for the presidential selection.

I'm assuming this refers to not wanting one of their own to be part of any interim Presidency. If so, smart move on their part, no sense taking on the taint of failure & hurting their chances to gain more power down the road.

[ISiddiqui]

It is very heartening to see Christians and Muslims protecting each other in Egypt.

[Warhammer]

It is very heartening to see Christians and Muslims protecting each other in Egypt.

+1

[Flasch186]

via aljazeera blog just now :

Love it

[sterlingice]

I might be totally wrong with this but I have an eerie feeling tonight. Last time I felt it was the night before Katrina hit- basically, people were talking about it being bad but catastrophic was just pushed aside. Kindof like people complaining about weather forecasters making things up with snow storms or the like, there was just a sense of "A whole city can't go underwater- it's just unimaginable". I told my wife that night, "I'm not joking- there's a coin flip New Orleans gets destroyed tomorrow and no one wants to confront how good the odds are of that" (And for a while, it looked like I was wrong. A couple of hours after it blew through, it looked like the worst was over. Then the levee failed and that was that...)

Well, I've got that feeling again tonight. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding the situation. I turned on my radio twice today to NPR and was listening around 3, heading over to a meeting, and the people were so happy- there was the message from the military and people were expecting Mubarak to step down. Then I was heading home at 6 and, well, I heard that what was expected didn't happen at all. You just took a group of people who were so excited and jubilant this afternoon and then you turned that energy into stunned silence followed by pure rage.

I think the military, as is always the case in situations like this, is going to be the determining factor. But I think they're going to just sit this one out on the sidelines if things get ugly and Mubarak is going to get thrown out of the palace tomorrow. I just don't see how this ends any other way. I suppose the military could step up and start gunning down civilians but I just don't see it. They don't seem particularly loyal to Mubarak and I think he's seen his last sunset in power.

Then who knows what happens... But maybe I'm wrong. I don't quite understand international politics as well as I understand weather :D

SI

[cartman]

I can easily see a situation like the end of the Ceausescu regime in Romania taking place.

[JPhillips]

No way the military cedes control to civilians without a fight.

[sterlingice]

I don't think they cede control- they just step aside, let the civilians get their pound of flesh, then fill the power vacuum.

SI

[JPhillips]

The military already has their guy in Sulieman. If Mubarak leaves I can't see any way now that Sulieman takes over. I've been worried about violence for several days now. It just seems like the protesters and the guys with tanks want completely different outcomes.

Of course there are reports of the army being closely involved with a number of disappearances.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Mubarak steps down.

[DaddyTorgo]

Took him long enough. Now we'll see if there's actual change or if he's just decided to basically retire and leave Suliman as the new hard-man

[ISiddiqui]

And cedes power to the military.

[whomario]

Mubarak steps down.

i´m wondering if there ever will be any sort of explanation why the hell he took so long ? Never mind the 3 weeks of protest, but why today and not yesterday ? Did he honestly believe his speech could calm things down or win "his people" over again ? :confused:


the scenes that unfolded directly following the anouncement were incredible. Even yesterday before said speech the pictures were pretty amazing with that whole square and surrounding streets packed with flag-waving and singing people.
I find it pretty remarkeable that aside from the first couple days where the police tried put them down and then later the mubarak-supporters/paid thugs came out everything has been this peacefull and well organised, considering everybody claimed it wouldn´t be.
Seeing how they basically built this village on the square with all sorts of people helping out with water, food or medical aid, that´s pretty great.


this still won´t be the end of it i´d say though.

[JonInMiddleGA]

For as unpleasant as he might have been, the odds of an even less palatable* successor seem awfully high.

*... to U.S./Western/Israeli interests. Clarifying before anyone even asks

[whomario]

i normally don´t put much trust into military, but considering their role so far (yes, they could have helped the protesters more, but considering the close connection to Mubarak they were great) and the fact that they are very much under pressure due to the amount of money they get from the US and other, i´m actually cautiously optimistic that this can work as a transitionary solution.

[albionmoonlight]

this still won´t be the end of it i´d say though.

Yup. Now the hard part starts for the Egyptian people. God be with them. I really hope that this all works out in the end.

[JediKooter]

2399

[JPhillips]

So the protesters are cheering a new military dictatorship.

And they think they won?

[cartman]

2399

Hey!

[JediKooter]

You've been busy Cartman.

[DaddyTorgo]

i normally don´t put much trust into military, but considering their role so far (yes, they could have helped the protesters more, but considering the close connection to Mubarak they were great) and the fact that they are very much under pressure due to the amount of money they get from the US and other, i´m actually cautiously optimistic that this can work as a transitionary solution.

It worked decently in Turkey, and the simple fact is that there isn't really any other solution in this type of situation - there are no other institutions who can typically assume day-to-day operating responsibility in counrties in these situations (by virtue of the fact that they've been dictatorships). Egypt is actually helped by the fact that it's a draft-army too, rather than a Revolutionary Guard-style elite military.

[Warhammer]

But in Turkey they had a hero in Ataturk. Not sure that outside of the military that situation is similar to this one at all.

[JonInMiddleGA]

But in Turkey they had a hero in Ataturk.

Ataturk? Is that like Attaboy, except in Turkish?

[ISiddiqui]

But in Turkey they had a hero in Ataturk. Not sure that outside of the military that situation is similar to this one at all.

Every country is different, but it seems that the military, in not blindly following Mubarak will be amenable to a democracy (one where it has a lot of power, of course).

[Warhammer]

Ataturk? Is that like Attaboy, except in Turkish?

Mustafa Kemal Atatürk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk)

The founder of Turkey. He kept the Western Allies from partioning Turkey after WWI and then led a series of secular reforms to westernize the country and send it down the path of secularism vs. an islamic state.

[JediKooter]

So THAT's how we got Thanksgiving...

[cartman]

According to the BBC, there are all sorts of protests and opposition rallies in Tehran today:

BBC News - Iran police fire tear gas at opposition rally in Tehran (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12447225)

[Thomkal]

CNN had a great video this morning. People were too scared of the government to gather in the streets overnight, so people started shouting freedom messages from the balconies at their apartments-you can hear the messages echoing throughout the city.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Interesting article that clears up where Mubarak and his family went wrong........

Palace intrigue: the last days of Mubarak's rule - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110214/ts_afp/egyptpoliticsunrest_20110214194259)

[JPhillips]

Terrible.

On Friday February 11, the day Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak stepped down, CBS correspondent Lara Logan was covering the jubilation in Tahrir Square for a "60 Minutes" story when she and her team and their security were surrounded by a dangerous element amidst the celebration. It was a mob of more than 200 people whipped into frenzy. In the crush of the mob, she was separated from her crew. She was surrounded and suffered a brutal and sustained sexual assault and beating before being saved by a group of women and an estimated 20 Egyptian soldiers. She reconnected with the CBS team, returned to her hotel and returned to the United States on the first flight the next morning. She is currently in the hospital recovering.

[whomario]

Libya aparently sinking into complete chaos with Gaddafi not only refusing to give up but actively fighting back. And not with riot police and tear gas like early on in Egypt but with soldiers/mercenaries and automatic weapons and fighter Jets :(

[molson]

I wonder what side of the Libyan revolution the "terminally ill" Lockerbie bomber (still kicking 2 years after his "compassionate release" because he didn't have long to live), and all the people that participated in the national holiday/celebration that was his return to Libya are on? There was a lot of Libyan flags flying that day. Maybe Gaddafi just needs to find another terrorist to bring back home? Terrorists are like rock stars there.

[sterlingice]

I hate to say it, but I think the Japan earthquake ended any chance the Libyan rebels had. I thought the no-fly zone was unlikely but with everyone focused away from the Middle East, there's never going to be enough pressure and Gaddafi is just going to roll over the rebels, slaughtering them as they go. Once the heavy equipment the government had was allowed, particularly the planes, it was over for the rebels.

They had a chance- I mean, think about it- a week or two ago, the rebels were one city away from Tripoli and everyone was defecting to the cause. But now, they're pretty much finished- all in under a month.

SI

[JPhillips]

Hoo fucking ray. Now we're at war with another Muslim country. Too bad we don't have any historical references to help us better understand the consequences of an ill thought intervention in a country where neither side is particularly friendly with the U.S.

edit: And is anybody going to say a word about how much this will cost? I know it's not as important as defunding NPR, but shouldn't someone give a shit?

It's so fucking hard to feel anything but despair.

[jeff061]

I think it'd be more like Kosovo than Iraq or Afghanistan.

[JPhillips]

Regardless, we're at war whether they want to call it that or not and even a Kosovo operation is going to be several billion dollars. The difficulty here is defining an ending. Will we accept two states? How does that happen? Does Quaddafi have to leave? Can we do that with only air power? Most importantly, what government will arise in Benghazi, an area that has one of the highest rates of sending foreign fighters to Afghanistan?

[flounder]

Don't worry. Another big war will be a huge stimulus to our economy.

Obama may be able to snag another peace prize after this, too. It's win-win.

[sterlingice]

Well, colored me shocked, considering my previous comments

SI

[GrantDawg]

Hoo fucking ray. Now we're at war with another Muslim country. Too bad we don't have any historical references to help us better understand the consequences of an ill thought intervention in a country where neither side is particularly friendly with the U.S.

edit: And is anybody going to say a word about how much this will cost? I know it's not as important as defunding NPR, but shouldn't someone give a shit?

It's so fucking hard to feel anything but despair.


NPR cost about as much to fund as the first two cruise missiles that will hit outside of Tripoli in about two hours. Heck, you could probably fully fund the Head Start program for a year with what the military will spend in ordinance in the first two days of a full scale air attack. It would be nice if this doesn't end up being the case this time. The discussion has been the US providing AWACS and other support, and French and Arab planes actually doing the work. It would only be fair since it will be French sold planes and missiles they'll be dealing with.

My guess is that won't be the case, and the brunt of the work and cost all falling on the US taxpayers and military personnel once again. France rattles the sabres for us to do their fighting, and then they'll criticize how we do it.

[GrantDawg]

On the good news of this: The BBC article mentions French and British planes could be ready to attack along with Arab allies within hours. No mention of American forces.

[GrantDawg]

I found this funny:

"Gaddafi’s son was then asked that as France was the first country to recognise the Interim Transitional National Council in Benghazi, what was his opinion of President Sarkozy.
Saif al-Islam: “Sarkozy must first give back the money he took from Libya to finance his electoral campaign. We funded it and we have all the details and are ready to reveal everything. The first thing we want this clown to do is to give the money back to the Libyan people. He was given assistance so that he could help them. But he’s disappointed us: give us back our money. We have all the bank details and documents for the transfer operations and we will make everything public soon.”

[JPhillips]

The top Air Force general said Thursday that a no-fly zone over Libya would not be sufficient in reversing the momentum leader Muammar al-Qaddafi now has over rebel forces.

Appearing before the Senate Armed Services Committee, Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz told ranking Republican Sen. John McCain, “If the president assigns the mission to maintain a no-fly zone, clearly that would have an influence on the thinking of Libyan pilots.”

McCain then pressed the point that if a no-fly zone is imposed now it would be too little too late.

“A no-fly zone, sir, would not be sufficient,” Schwartz answered.

Perhaps not so Kosovo by the end?

[JPhillips]

And another thing.

Thank fucking you Congress for abandoning your Constitutional role in declaring war.

[sterlingice]

To be fair, that's been going on since, well, Vietnam

SI

[Warhammer]

Having the no-fly zone 2 or 3 weeks ago would have meant something. Now it is too little, too late.

[sterlingice]

If it had happened 3 weeks ago, Libya would be either partitioned or Gaddafi gone. But now, yeah, too late, I suspect.

SI

[Warhammer]

My thinking is, if you were going to do the no fly zone, you do it early. If you were not going to do anything, you let it go. By waiting to implement the no fly zone, you just piss everyone off.

[JPhillips]

Either way, nobody seems at all concerned for what might come after. Eastern Libya is a hotbed for foreign fighters in Afghanistan. I have no love or Qaddafi, but he hasn't given us much trouble for almost two decades. Can we be sure the next government will be better?

[JPhillips]

To be fair, that's been going on since, well, Vietnam

SI

Agreed. Doesn't mean I like it any better.

[JPhillips]

I have a fairly old-school conservative view of foreign intervention so I wholeheartedly agree with Richard Lugar here:

Clearly, the United States should be engaged with allies on how to oppose the Qaddafi regime and support the aspirations of the Libyan people. But given the costs of a no-fly zone, the risks that our involvement would escalate, the uncertain reception in the Arab street of any American intervention in an Arab country, the potential for civilian deaths, the unpredictability of the endgame in a civil war, the strains on our military, and other factors, I am doubtful that U.S. interests would be served by imposing a no-fly zone over Libya ... If the Obama administration decides to impose a no-fly zone or take other significant military action in Libya, I believe it should first seek a Congressional debate on a declaration of war under Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution.

[stevew]

I can reluctantly support this, if only cause he is "apparently" on the verge of wholesale slaughter of a city. Of course I don't trust the motives of the factors at work very much. So I am curious as to how accurate this intelligence is.

[Glengoyne]

I'm with Dick Lugar as well. We should have pushed this with the UN ten days ago, and then pushed our allies to actually do it. My personal hope is that our involvement stops at cruise missles or a handful of strategic targets to make it easier for everyone else to actually do more of the day to day work there. All in all, this is too little WAY too damn late. Of course I hope I'm surprised, I hope we're all surprised.

[JPhillips]

No offense, but that sounds just the opposite of Lugar's position.

[GrantDawg]

Lybian government has now called for an immediate cease fire. Smart move on their part. No bombs have fallen, they have lost nothing, but they are positions to continue a "police action" against the rebels, which will make any air support harder to be helpfull/effective or even justified. Meanwhile, they can move assests into protection, and let key figures get shelters prepared incase things get ramped up later.

The French and Arab allies better start pouring in equipment and material support for their Lybian counterparts if they are to hope to hold out, or they are going to get out flanked.

[Neon_Chaos]

It's refreshing to see that the US is not taking the driver's seat in this one, and has, instead, successfully maneuvered other nations into a broad coalition.

France and UK look like they ready to take the lead on the assaults on Libya.

The announcements coming from Ghaddafi's regime is slowly turning into delusional rants from a totalitarian about to lose power (i.e. Saddam in Iraq)

[Ryan S]

6 RAF fighter jets just flew over my house, presumably on their way to patrol the no fly zone. The pilot at the back of the group was a bit of a poser as he flipped the jet upside down as he was flying by.

[SteveMax58]

The announcements coming from Ghaddafi's regime is slowly turning into delusional rants from a totalitarian about to lose power (i.e. Saddam in Iraq)

Yes, this is also very similar to Charlie Sheen on an all-nighter.

[SteveMax58]

6 RAF fighter jets just flew over my house, presumably on their way to patrol the no fly zone. The pilot at the back of the group was a bit of a poser as he flipped the jet upside down as he was flying by.

Sounds like a Maverick.

[Ryan S]

According to the news they were Canadian fighter jets.

[GrantDawg]

Nothing strikes fear in dictators everywhere like Canadian fighter jets.

[Ryan S]

US fighter jets flying over now, they are refuelling at an airport about 8 miles from me.

[GrantDawg]

The French president has just said that airstrikes have begun.

[Ryan S]

Why does it look like Hillary Clinton is being filmed by a camera phone? Terrible picture quality during this speech.

[tarcone]

Good thing the Arabs dont get along. This would be a more ugly world if they did.

[sabotai]

Canada sent all of their fighters to Libya? Time for a US sneak attack!

[BYU 14]

It's refreshing to see that the US is not taking the driver's seat in this one, and has, instead, successfully maneuvered other nations into a broad coalition.

France and UK look like they ready to take the lead on the assaults on Libya.

The announcements coming from Ghaddafi's regime is slowly turning into delusional rants from a totalitarian about to lose power (i.e. Saddam in Iraq)

I am also happy to see the US not shouldering the burden here. I don't even like to think of the effect involvement here on the level of Afghanistan or Iraq would have on our already tattered economy.

It is also nice to see the UN operating as it is designed to operate up to this point. Hopefully the US continues to stay on the sidelines in a support role here. More than any other country France has the biggest Dog in this fight since they are the most reliant on Libyan oil, so it is nice to see them step up.

[BYU 14]

Good thing the Arabs dont get along. This would be a more ugly world if they did.

Please don't tell them :)

[sabotai]

Good thing the Arabs dont get along. This would be a more ugly world if they did.

*slowly backs away from the thread*

[GrantDawg]

Well, here comes our part. The french started, but now the US has now taken command and will be for awhile (out of the Mount Whitney) until the coalition is ready to take over later. We have launched missiles on to anti-air capabilities in the western side of Lybia. So far, no American planes confirmed in air, but British planes might be.

[CrimsonFox]

I bet we're there because they have all those cool flying carpets. And WE WANT EM! And we will HAVE THEM!

[Galaxy]

Canada sent all of their fighters to Libya? Time for a US sneak attack!

We'll be a hockey superpower!

[Buccaneer]

I am also happy to see the US not shouldering the burden here. I don't even like to think of the effect involvement here on the level of Afghanistan or Iraq would have on our already tattered economy.

It is also nice to see the UN operating as it is designed to operate up to this point. Hopefully the US continues to stay on the sidelines in a support role here. More than any other country France has the biggest Dog in this fight since they are the most reliant on Libyan oil, so it is nice to see them step up.

You can believe all that if you want.

[Ryan S]

You can believe all that if you want.

Unless this goes south in a hurry, I can't imagine that the US will get involved much more than providing support for the patrolling fighters and firing cruise missiles. The US administration has made it fairly obvious that they are not really interested in getting involved.

[sterlingice]

We'll throw some missiles from boats, maybe have some low-risk flying missions that are basically training over the no-fly zone, and provide some arms and training and trainers. What else do you think we're going to do, Bucc?

SI

[Buccaneer]

My point is that we are leading this effort, shouldering the burden. Who knows where it goes from here.

[Dutch]

My point is that we are leading this effort, shouldering the burden. Who knows where it goes from here.

Well, I agree, once we get involved then we tend to feel responsible. If the rebels take over and then start killing each other, then what? I just have this feeling that it's not "the ENTIRE nation of Libya vs one dictator". I mean, I'm not really sure, but the fighting seems intense enough that once the rebels win, they could go mafia-vendetta style on the ousted government, it's officials, it's African mercenaries, it's loyalists, possibly jumping across borders to do the deeds...genocide even. And then everybody is gonna be pissed that the USA got involved. I've seen the movie before too, Buc.

Do I feel like ousting of Qaddafi is the right thing to do? Yes. But after the Iraqi insurgency, I understand now hidden triggers can come back to haunt us. However, I also remember avoiding further contact following the Iraqi Shia uprisings in 1991 and vacating Afghanistan in the late 70's. So what have I learned? The United States is damned if we do, damned if we don't.

Ultimately though, you have to make a decision. Either you make decisions and deal with the course you've set for yourself, or you let others make decisions and you deal with the course they've set for you.

[RainMaker]

This has nothing to do with genocide, mercenaries, or the people in the country. I just wish we'd stop hiding behind those things and would just tell people the real intentions.

[SteveMax58]

What benefit would the any of the interested parties have in disclosing true intentions?

I mean...its a bit like saying your real intentions to a girl you start conversation with at a bar. You could tell her that you're really only talking to her because you are hoping to get laid but it probably won't endear you to her...nor her friends.

[RainMaker]

It's more like telling your wife that you're taking money out of the account to buy a ring. But not telling her the ring is for your mistress and not for her.

We are spending a lot of money to help business interests in the U.S. (the companies that bought our government) but telling taxpayers that we are really there because we care about these people and their freedom. Just another dishonest use of our tax dollars to help prop up certain well-connected businesses. I can't wait till we hear these same people cry about how we need more free markets and how government involvement in business is bad.

[SteveMax58]

I DEFINITELY do not think it would be in your interest to tell your wife in that situation. :)

Well...is it just business or is it the taxpayer's way of life as well? I mean, look at the amount of speculation in oil prices already starting. I think we're collectively getting closer to realizing that our way of life isn't sustainable within reason any more...I just hope we actually do something about it or else this could be the start of the "Resource Wars".

[BYU 14]

My point is that we are leading this effort, shouldering the burden. Who knows where it goes from here.

Well five Ships involved so far, I would hope that is as far as it goes. As far as who isleading the effort, thought the French seem to be in the catbird seat, who knows what is going on behind the scenes. I am not so jaded as to think we are always in the lead, though not so naive to think it is not possible. Like you said, we will see where it goes form here.

[Dutch]

This has nothing to do with genocide, mercenaries, or the people in the country. I just wish we'd stop hiding behind those things and would just tell people the real intentions.

Huh?

[RainMaker]

I DEFINITELY do not think it would be in your interest to tell your wife in that situation. :)

Well...is it just business or is it the taxpayer's way of life as well? I mean, look at the amount of speculation in oil prices already starting. I think we're collectively getting closer to realizing that our way of life isn't sustainable within reason any more...I just hope we actually do something about it or else this could be the start of the "Resource Wars".
If we cared about resource wars, we'd be investing in alternative energy much more heavily. But we don't care about that, we just care about the companies who pay the biggest bucks to our politicians. That happens to be the oil companies.

It's using our military and our tax dollars as an arm of their business to get what they want.

[Thomkal]

sorry wrong spot

[GrantDawg]

Second attack on wave is British missiles and fighter jets. Lybian tv says it was mostly on hospitals and schools. The wounded were women, children and religous clerics. Because, as you know, that is the primary targets of any military campaign.

[sterlingice]

Second attack on wave is British missiles and fighter jets. Lybian tv says it was mostly on hospitals and schools. The wounded were women, children and religous clerics. Because, as you know, that is the primary targets of any military campaign.

That and the puppy stores and orphanages

SI

[stevew]

NAPA know how to make a horrible commercial.

[GrantDawg]

The UAE will be sending 24 jets (Mirage 2000-9's and F-16's) and Qatar will be sending 4-6 Mirage 2000-5's in the next couple of days. Spain has sent 4 jets and three ships.

[Galaxy]

If we cared about resource wars, we'd be investing in alternative energy much more heavily. But we don't care about that, we just care about the companies who pay the biggest bucks to our politicians. That happens to be the oil companies.

It's using our military and our tax dollars as an arm of their business to get what they want.

Alternative energy isn't going to happen overnight.

[JonInMiddleGA]

NAPA know how to make a horrible commercial.

The singing thing?

If so, we've been praising that one for several days around here because it's quite a bit better than their previous efforts with the same theme.

That said, I basically don't buy auto parts so making me happy doesn't particularly help them much.

[RainMaker]

Alternative energy isn't going to happen overnight.
It's a tired excuse. We're capable of flying a computer to Mars, have it land safely, power itself, and report back with images and data. Yet we can't seem to produce an affordable car that can get 50MPG. We can't find a way to power our cities without using fossil fuels. If even half the money we spent on these wars were put toward advancing our own resources, we wouldn't have to bow down to these losers and can let them fight each other back into the dark ages. And of course our economy wouldn't be reliant on how some guy interprets the Quran.

[Warhammer]

The problem with the combustion engine is that the combustion engine is about as efficient as we can make it. The only way we can make more efficient cars is to reduce the amount of weight in them and let's face it, people want their cup holders.

We have the means to power cities without using fossil fuels, but unfortunately, due to events in Japan, those efforts will be set back years.

[Ryan S]

Yet we can't seem to produce an affordable car that can get 50MPG.

There are plenty of affordable cars in Europe that can make 50mpg (US), and not just crappy superminis. The technology is there, but obviously there is not the desire from the car buying public in the US.

[Neon_Chaos]

I'm very, very pleased to see everyone sending their own hardware to join in on the coalition.

[rowech]

The problem with the combustion engine is that the combustion engine is about as efficient as we can make it. The only way we can make more efficient cars is to reduce the amount of weight in them and let's face it, people want their cup holders.

We have the means to power cities without using fossil fuels, but unfortunately, due to events in Japan, those efforts will be set back years.

It's not just that....would you want to be driving one of those things and be in an accident with a truck? A semi? Until everyone has one, they simply aren't safe.

[JPhillips]

There are plenty of options for more gas mileage without driving smart cars. We lag behind Europe not because of consumer choice, but because the auto manufacturers make a bigger profit margin on larger vehicles.

[Ryan S]

There are plenty of options for more gas mileage without driving smart cars. We lag behind Europe not because of consumer choice, but because the auto manufacturers make a bigger profit margin on larger vehicles.

I think the main reason you lag behind Europe is the price of gasoline. Yesterday I filled up my car at $8 per US gallon. If the US prices were that high, there would be huge demand for smaller engines, and more efficient diesel engines would make up the majority of new car sales.

[Chubby]

I think the main reason you lag behind Europe is the price of gasoline. Yesterday I filled up my car at $8 per US gallon. If the US prices were that high, there would be huge demand for smaller engines, and more efficient diesel engines would make up the majority of new car sales.

diesel is more expensive than nl/premium/ OR super

[jeff061]

diesel is more expensive than nl/premium/ OR super

But they get 50+ miles to the gallon. How much more expensive is it?

[Dutch]

There are plenty of options for more gas mileage without driving smart cars. We lag behind Europe not because of consumer choice, but because the auto manufacturers make a bigger profit margin on larger vehicles.

Consumers don't really have a choice when gas is $9 a gallon.

[Dutch]

But they get 50+ miles to the gallon. How much more expensive is it?

Like 30 cents more a gallon, I think. I used to remember a day when it was cheaper, don't know if that's a correct memory or not.

[gstelmack]

I had a diesel VW Rabbit back in the mid-to-late 80s that got better gas milage than most of the hybrids out right now. 32MPG on a hybrid, what a joke.

Can't wait for the Volt to come down to a more reasonable price. And my electricity is generated by a nuke plant, so no fossil fuels at all...

[jeff061]

I know people with VW Golf Diesels, they get crazy good mileage without sacrificing performance, still fun rides.

[Chubby]

depends, right now we are at

61/71/81/99

so it's 38 more than no lead, diesel price doesn't change often as we don't sell a lot of it.

yes, it may be cheaper in the long run due to gas mileage but in the consumer's mind they don't want to pay the higher price (this is based off of roughly 100 customers a day who come in and try to scam their wash gas rebate which in reality, is like 30 cents)

[Ryan S]

Like 30 cents more a gallon, I think. I used to remember a day when it was cheaper, don't know if that's a correct memory or not.

It is about the same price difference in the UK, yet diesels still sell far more over here.

I have a two litre unleaded BMW. A work colleague has the same car with a 3 litre diesel engine. I get just over 300 miles from a tank, he gets close to 500 miles, and an extra 70bhp to play with.

[RainMaker]

I had a diesel VW Rabbit back in the mid-to-late 80s that got better gas milage than most of the hybrids out right now. 32MPG on a hybrid, what a joke.

Can't wait for the Volt to come down to a more reasonable price. And my electricity is generated by a nuke plant, so no fossil fuels at all...
My first car was a 1986 Mercury Topaz and it has better gas mileage than most of the fuel efficient cars we see today. So in nearly 30 years, we have seen little to no improvements in the cars being sold. On the other hand, the giant Tandy 1000 computer we had in our living room has turned into a tiny device I can put in my pocket, connect to anywhere in the world in seconds, and is millions of times more powerful.

The "it takes time" or "it's hard" shit is old. Invest in technology and you can make it happen. Invest in regulations that forces more fuel efficiency and it happens. Something isn't right when I got better MPG on an old beater made in 1986 than on the best compact cars on the market today.

[jeff061]

Well I think the performance gains have been in speed and power at the detriment to MPG. It's what the consumer in the states has wanted, likely due to the comparatively cheaper gas prices.

[RainMaker]

Consumers don't really have a choice when gas is $9 a gallon.
Having gas prices go up will probably be the best thing to happen to this country long term. It's sort of sad that for all the money we pump into our military, all the money we've spent to keep our financial system afloat, a terrorist in Libya and a religuous monarch in Saudi Arabia can destroy our economy overnight.

[RainMaker]

Well I think the performance gains have been in speed and power at the detriment to MPG. It's what the consumer in the states has wanted, likely due to the comparatively cheaper gas prices.
If it's what consumers have wanted, car companies wouldn't be losing money left and right. If one of these companies came out with an affordable, nice-looking car that could get 75mpg, they wouldn't be able to make them fast enough.

[Scoobz0202]

Why Gas Is So Expensive Today (Hint: It’s Not Libya) - Chris Peterson (http://www.cpeterson.org/2011/03/10/why-gas-is-so-expensive-today-hint-its-not-libya/)

I read this the other day. Enlightening for somebody who knows next to nothing on how this stuff works.

[jeff061]

If it's what consumers have wanted, car companies wouldn't be losing money left and right. If one of these companies came out with an affordable, nice-looking car that could get 75mpg, they wouldn't be able to make them fast enough.



Yes, but that demand is a relatively new development.

[RainMaker]

Why Gas Is So Expensive Today (Hint: It’s Not Libya) - Chris Peterson (http://www.cpeterson.org/2011/03/10/why-gas-is-so-expensive-today-hint-its-not-libya/)

I read this the other day. Enlightening for somebody who knows next to nothing on how this stuff works.
While Wall Street is making the prices high, it's still the events over there that is causing people to run the price up.

He's basically saying "tickets for the Super Bowl aren't expensive, it's those ticket brokers that are causing it to appear that way".

[SteveMax58]

Having gas prices go up will probably be the best thing to happen to this country long term. It's sort of sad that for all the money we pump into our military, all the money we've spent to keep our financial system afloat, a terrorist in Libya and a religuous monarch in Saudi Arabia can destroy our economy overnight.

Yes...but it depends on why those gas prices go up. If it went up right now $1/gal from taxation which is used to fund a real energy initiative then its a good thing. Add $1/gal for next 5 years (and make it public knowledge) and we'll see investment. But, without getting into a big/small government debate, let's just say that if the tax does not have a defined & transparent purpose...and goes to the general government slush fund to pay for debatable "wasteful" causes... it will cause some major political backlash (and I worry about rioting & some level of despotism breaking out in some areas if done too quickly).

Sitting around & waiting for it to go up organically will (obviously) not have the same effect & we'll be completely crippled by that point to act without some form of debt easing or aid (as a nation). Being generally in favor of smaller government, it's a tough thing to say, but this is something government SHOULD be there to do...which is to foresee sustainability issues & act.

[Ryan S]

Sounds like the head of the Arab League is condemning the air strikes, despite the fact that they requested the no fly zone.

I reckon it is time to say F*** it and let the arabs kill each other.

[SteveMax58]

I reckon it is time to say F*** it and let the arabs kill each other.

We would if they didn't have any oil and the resultant "winner" didn't control it all.

[Dutch]

I had a diesel VW Rabbit back in the mid-to-late 80s that got better gas milage than most of the hybrids out right now. 32MPG on a hybrid, what a joke.

Can't wait for the Volt to come down to a more reasonable price. And my electricity is generated by a nuke plant, so no fossil fuels at all...

So the Volt uses electricity for the first 25-50 miles and then switches to gasoline only when the battery depletes...what if the battery doesn't deplete very often? Does the gasoline's life expectancy become an issue?

[Dutch]

From Drudge....

<TABLE cellPadding=3 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top width="30%" align=left><TT><TT>MARCH 19, 2011
OBAMA: 'Today we are part of a broad coalition. We are answering the calls of a threatened people. And we are acting in the interests of the United States and the world'...

MARCH 19, 2003
BUSH: 'American and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm Iraq, to free its people and to defend the world from grave danger'... </TT></TT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[jeff061]

As long as he doesn't start dropping "Evil Doer" I don't much care.

[Dutch]

As long as he doesn't start dropping "Evil Doer" I don't much care.

I wouldn't worry about that. :)

[rowech]

I think a big difference between Libya and Iraq is that a revolution has already started on it's own. It becomes about supporting that and not trying to lead one.

[Dutch]

I think a big difference between Libya and Iraq is that a revolution has already started on it's own. It becomes about supporting that and not trying to lead one.

Maybe you missed the part where we initated a no-fly-zone over Iraq following a massive 1991 Shia uprising that was crushed without mercy by Saddam Hussein? The Iraqi no-fly-zone was put into effect to stop the bleeding and was there indefinately until we finally went back in and removed the dictator.

Welcome to UN standard operating procedure.

[GrantDawg]

BTW, one day of bombing, the Arab league is already backing out saying "oh, you mean you'd actually have to shoot something." Russia is condemning our bombing of hospitals, just showing propaganda will be believed by those who want to believe it. It has taken one day, only hitting military targets and an armoured column outside of the main rebel city, and it already looks like condemnation is going to flow heavy.

[GrantDawg]

(Continuing my blog of the war for Lybia that no one might be reading)

The Arab league has now back off their earlier criticism (the money finally hit the right pockets) and they are back in support. The military leaders of Lybia just went on their national TV and proclaimed a cease-fire for all of their troups, which means probably absolutely nothing.

Interestingly, the armour column moving toward Bengahzi seems to have been destroyed by the French in todays actions, but tanks rolled right in to Misurata and moved all the way into the center of town. It is possible that Allied forces weren't willing to start taking out low-level targets in Western Lybia until they were sure the anti-air abilities were completely crippled, but I can't help but think that those might have been scuttled by another political inconvience. The US seems to not be involved in those kinds of activity, and it looks like each country is taking control of certain zones (French to the East, British to the West, etc.). The British fighter/bombers are not currently forward deployed and are having to fly all the way from Norfolk, because Cyprus is refusing to allow them to use their base there for attack operations. They are going to eventually move to Italy, but it might have prevented them from tank-busting missions today.

[albionmoonlight]

We would if they didn't have any oil and the resultant "winner" didn't control it all.

Back when I was a middle-schooler, when two guys got into a fight, they had some third party hold their watches, glasses, etc. while they fought so nothing would get broken.

Do you think that we could maybe convince all of the countries in the Middle East to let us hold their oil while they fought? That way none of it would get hurt.

Then, when the winning country asked us for the oil back, we could be all like, "What oil? You asked China to hold your oil; we don't know where it is. Maybe they took it."

[Dutch]

...Lybia...troups...armour... Interesting spelling choices here, are you *from* Georgia?

[GrantDawg]

Interesting spelling choices here, are you *from* Georgia?


Born, bred, raised, not taught to spell, all right here. :)

[sterlingice]

Back when I was a middle-schooler, when two guys got into a fight, they had some third party hold their watches, glasses, etc. while they fought so nothing would get broken.

Do you think that we could maybe convince all of the countries in the Middle East to let us hold their oil while they fought? That way none of it would get hurt.

Then, when the winning country asked us for the oil back, we could be all like, "What oil? You asked China to hold your oil; we don't know where it is. Maybe they took it."

:D

SI

[GrantDawg]

Airstrikes in the heart of Tripoli, it seems possible that the main Colonel Daffy compound was hit, but no confirmation. A reporter in Tripoli did say she recieved word that the bodies shown on Lybian tv was from the barracks of some the top goverment military fighters that were hit in last nights strikes. Again, not really confirmed.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Side note of pride, but I was in mid-Missouri today and saw the B-2 bombers fly overhead on their way back from a round trip to Libya. With them being based here in Missouri, we get to see them fly pretty often, but it's always a reminder of the dangerous missions they undertake. It's also a great reminder of just how fortunate we are to be on the right side of their bombing runs.

[Warhammer]

Why would anyone want to follow a Colonel when you should be following a General?

[Passacaglia]

The only Colonel I've ever followed was Colonel Mustard.

[Dutch]

Born, bred, raised, not taught to spell, all right here. :)

hehe, gotcha, I thought maybe you were from England or something. :)

[GrantDawg]

CNN reporter was taken to the building in the main compound that was hit. It was a four story building that was hit were many dignitaries are taken. He actually has parts of the missile. I couldn't figure out why they let him take that, till he pointed out that as that building was hit, the Pentigon briefing was going on stating they spefically wasn't targeting Gaddafy's compound.

[CrimsonFox]

The only Colonel I've ever followed was Colonel Mustard.

:+1: And only to accuse him of being a werewolf right? :)

[stevew]

The only Colonel I've ever followed was Colonel Mustard.

Colonel Sanders led me on a dark path towards obesity.

[GrantDawg]

Sec. Gates clarified hitting the building in the compound. "We were under the impression it was a school for female religous cleric orphains that taught puppies to work with the blind. Our bad."

[Neon_Chaos]

A US Airforce F-15 crashed in Libya. Pilots ejected. One has been found, the other one is still being sought.

[Neon_Chaos]

[6:50 a.m. Tuesday ET, 12:50 p.m. Tuesday in Libya] A U.S. Air Force F-15 jet has crashed in Libya, Kenneth Fidler, a spokesman for U.S. Africa Command, said Tuesday. Two pilots ejected from the plane. One has been recovered, and the second is still being sought. The crash was "not due to enemy or hostile actions," Fidler said. The plane was flying from Europe, he said.

[6:32 a.m. Tuesday ET, 12:32 p.m. Tuesday in Libya] One crewman has been recovered and another is in the process of being recovered after a U.S. Air Force F-15 crashes in rebel-controlled area of Libya, the U.S. military says, according to Reuters.

[6:16 a.m. Tuesday ET, 12:16 p.m. Tuesday in Libya] A U.S. Air Force F-15 Eagle fighter has crashed, apparently because of mechanical failure, in a rebel-controlled area of Libya, according to Arab media reports. The pilot has been rescued, according to the reports.

[Thomkal]

Just in case anyone hasn't been able to follow the story, both pilots have been recovered safely one by us, the other by the rebels. The one recovered by the rebels treated him well and both are in the process or already on the Kearsage. Both have minor injuries consistent with ejecting from a fighter plane.

Qadaffhi of course is reporting that Libya shot the plane down, identfying it as a Phantom class plane...which we haven't used in decades apparantly.

[GrantDawg]

Just in case anyone hasn't been able to follow the story, both pilots have been recovered safely one by us, the other by the rebels. The one recovered by the rebels treated him well and both are in the process or already on the Kearsage. Both have minor injuries consistent with ejecting from a fighter plane.

Qadaffhi of course is reporting that Libya shot the plane down, identfying it as a Phantom class plane...which we haven't used in decades apparantly.


Yeah, they shot it down in 1985, it just now landed. The pilots first request was for a PBR and a Journey tape.

[Thomkal]

Yeah, they shot it down in 1985, it just now landed. The pilots first request was for a PBR and a Journey tape.

heh

[JediKooter]

Yeah, they shot it down in 1985, it just now landed. The pilots first request was for a PBR and a Journey tape.

I think Compuserv just canceled all accounts in Libya.

[Rizon]

I think Compuserv just canceled all accounts in Libya.

Not that big of a deal; they still have Prodigy.

[jeff061]

I loved Prodigy.

Deal with it.

[JediKooter]

Not that big of a deal; they still have Prodigy.

I hear they have support for 600 baud modems now.

[Rizon]

I loved Prodigy.

Deal with it.

They had fun Mad Libs. That's all I remember about Prodigy.

[jeff061]

Nova rocked the house.

[GrantDawg]

Been awhile since this was bumped, but it looks like Gaddafi's regime is almost done. The rebels have swarmed Tripoli, and many of his security forces are not fighting back at this point.

[bulletsponge]

partying in the streets (as close as they "party" over there). i hope we see Qaddafi swinging from a lamppost just like Mussolini soon

[DaddyTorgo]

Yeah - I've been following along this weekend, but couldn't recall the appropriate thread to bump.

[JPhillips]

I hope the replacement regime is better, but who knows?

[DaddyTorgo]

http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/

Watch Live TV Online | Sky Go (http://go.sky.com/vod/page/playLiveTv.do)

Twitter (http://twitter.com/#!/search/%23mermaiddawn)

Free Tripoli - Red Rebel - Green Gaddafi - Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=214301650463033871851.0004aaf73e7ee9a96c942&vpsrc=0&ll=32.860114,13.217196&spn=0.076423,0.353879&source=embed)

[Buccaneer]

Libya on the brink
Tripoli under siege

Deja vu from the WW2 Desert Campaigns and Operation Torch.

[Flasch186]

boy I was wrong looking back at this thread. Im glad.

[Dutch]

Libya on the brink
Tripoli under siege

Deja vu from the WW2 Desert Campaigns and Operation Torch.

Looks like a drudgereport headline.

Nope...from drudge...

http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/Nz7w51JICzXvtGafFGt1fA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD0zNjk7cT04NTt3PTUxMg--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/Reuters/2011-08-20T212248Z_01_SIN706_RTRIDSP_3_LIBYA.jpg

CORNERED! (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle-east/libyan-rebels-converging-on-tripoli/2011/08/21/gIQAbF3RUJ_print.html)

[Edward64]

Have to give him some credit for sticking with it this late in the game. If I was him, I would have thrown in the towel and been reading the news in Switzerland.

I'm surprised the sons were reported captured. You would have thought they would have been torn apart.

The "I'm not dead yet" Lockerbie bomber must be pissing in his pants.

[DaddyTorgo]

Early breaking news (unsubstantiated, via Twitter) that they've caught Gaddafi.

[DaddyTorgo]

Cool video of some people in Tripoli reacting as the freedom fighters draw closer and eventually meeting up with them

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNSrtODHIoQ&feature=share

[CrimsonFox]

This title really really reminded me of this:

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/cDs9zbiumDc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Kodos]

Early breaking news (unsubstantiated, via Twitter) that they've caught Gaddafi.

I hope they didn't cross his LINE OF DEATH! :eek:

[GrantDawg]

Three of Gaddafi's sons are in custody. At least one has been indicted by the Hague and the rebels are in the process to turn him over to them. One son called Al Jazeera last night and claimed this whole thing was a large "misunderstanding" and that the rebels have him under house arrest and have guaranteed his safety. Did he flip as they were coming in?

[JonInMiddleGA]

the rebels have him under house arrest and have guaranteed his safety. Did he flip as they were coming in?

Actually that would be a very smart move on the part of the rebels.

[GrantDawg]

Actually that would be a very smart move on the part of the rebels.


Oh, I agree. Well treated "hostage" might help bring in the rest of the regime, as well as help international PR. The rebel leaders are promising they will not be seeking out revenge and settling old scores. The best thing they can do for their future relations is to hit the ground running trying to govern. I hope they do, and follow through on their promises.

[ISiddiqui]

Well the fact that they thought that out gives me hope for them being thoughtful in a transition government (that may be foolish on my part, though).

[JAG]

I hadn't heard this until just now:

One reason for the rebels' startlingly rapid entrance into Tripoli, which had long seemed impregnable, was reported to be the secret allegiance of the commander of the special battalion guarding the capital.
A senior rebel official, Fathi al-Baja, told AP that the commander's brother had been killed by the regime years ago, and that he had been loyal to the rebels. When opposition forces reached the gates of Tripoli, the battalion promptly surrendered.

[DaddyTorgo]

I hadn't heard this until just now:

I had seen something yesterday about a commander of one of the elite brigades in tripoli (not sure if it was this guy, but seems likely) ordering his troops to lay down their arms. Mad respect for moves like that.

[DaddyTorgo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnDUS-MR2g8&feature=youtu.be

See the Brit/American guys in the background. Either Special Ops troops or "advisors" to the TNC military. WTG!!

[GrantDawg]

Let's say this: I don't think this is like a big help for Obama politically. By election time, no one is even going to remember this. But I don't want to point out there are a number of people hawking praise on "Obama's plan." I guess as president, he gets credit for everything (as well as blame), but this was Clinton's plan. Clinton forced the President into a corner to get him to agree with the NATO intervention, and was on point through all of it. So, if this does work out, then praise Obama, but praise him for finally giving in to Clinton to allow her do what she thought must be done.

[GrantDawg]

Ok, how about this. Saef Qaddify just walked up to a Fox report, says he is alive and uncaptured, and that the rebels have lured into a trap in Tripoli. Weird? Weirder than me watching Fox news?

[bronconick]

Let's say this: I don't think this is like a big help for Obama politically. By election time, no one is even going to remember this. But I don't want to point out there are a number of people hawking praise on "Obama's plan." I guess as president, he gets credit for everything (as well as blame), but this was Clinton's plan. Clinton forced the President into a corner to get him to agree with the NATO intervention, and was on point through all of it. So, if this does work out, then praise Obama, but praise him for finally giving in to Clinton to allow her do what she thought must be done.

I agree. The very things the administration did right (very light touch on any assistance, claims of being support for NATO instead of leading it) also preclude this from being some important political football.

It was odd because the whole thing seemed like something with only political downside. He basically dodges a bullet, because a 3rd ongoing occupation/major military action would kill his base's enthusiasm for 2012.

[GrantDawg]

It looks like the battle for Tripoli is getting very hot. The rebels are attacking Gaddafi's compound with NATO air support. Meanwhile the rebels have confirmed that pro-regime forces are poising as rebels. Tripoli is in danger of becoming a mad, bloody mess.

[Rizon]

Rebels have stormed Gadhafi's crib but dude is nowhere to be found (he's in Tennessee probably).

[stevew]

Rebels have stormed Gadhafi's crib but dude is nowhere to be found (he's in Tennessee probably).

I wonder if he's hiding out with Casey Anthony.

[JediKooter]

He's hiding with Tupac's killer.

[Easy Mac]

I wonder if he's hiding out with Casey Anthony.

That didn't work out well for the last person who tried it.

[molson]

(he's in Tennessee probably).

Actually, he owns a pretty nice place in New Jersey - I wonder who's living there now. I wonder if the rebels get this place in the revolution.

Moammar Gadhafi and Libya still pay no property taxes on N.J. estate | International | NewJerseyNewsroom.com -- Your State. Your News. (http://www.newjerseynewsroom.com/international/moammar-gadhafi-and-libya-still-pay-no-property-taxes-on-nj-estate)

[sterlingice]

Where would you rather live right now? Tripoli or Jersey? Hard to say

SI

[DaddyTorgo]

Great story with more details of the operation by the NTC forces (I'm done calling them "rebels").

News from The Associated Press (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_LIBYA_MERMAID_DAWN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)