The truly Officialish FOFC Cup III rankings and groups

[HornedFrog Purple]

Ok thanks to help from a lot of people, I have completed the official seedings and groupings for FOFC Cup III. I am going to post the seedings first then the groups below it. Within the next couple of days, I should be able to post the schedules and explain why a couple of things were done to attempt to get balance as best as possible.

Also a webpage with everything here will be available to look at. It is going to look very nice.

Thanks to FrogMan, dacman, Brillig, Coffee Warlord, DataKing, ardent (of course), sterlingice... well just about everyone in some form or fashion.

These are the seedings for FOFC Cup III:

<font=couriers>SEED TEAM FOFC MEMBER COUNTRY 19.03-RANK GROUP
1 MoKan Mighty Bastards Meanstrosity USA cup2 win A
2 Ruskies The_herd USA cup2 run-up B
3 Bees ausonny USA cons cup win C
4 Gargoyles Ravenhawk USA lost semi D
5 Midwest Ice Storm FC Pilotman USA lost semi E
6 Screamin' Seamen dataking USA 2 F
7 Slumlords winking pirate USA 4 G
8 SouthPark Cows lytic USA 6 H
9 North County Raiders Ardent Enthusiast USA 7 I
10 Hamas Mad Bombers astralhaze USA 8 J
11 Ultra Nox Qwikshot USA 9 K
12 Morrisville Morrisvillians NevStar USA 10 L
13 Galesburg Avengers Coffee Warlord USA 11.1 M
14 Cowtown FC Mrushh USA 11.2 M
15 Cedar Pond Horned Toads HornedFrog Purple USA 13 L
16 Calibiri Daedalus USA 14 K
17 Aardvarks Aylmar USA 15 J
18 Louisiana Cyclones Doug5984 USA 16 I
19 Chesapeake Cheapshots Quiksand USA 17 H
20 Arkham Avengers Nylarlahotep USA 19 G
21 Negative Waves moriarty USA 21 D
22 Houston Hippopotami sterlingice USA 22 E
23 Alf Trickers Alf France 24 F
24 Isla Vista Vandals Vince USA 25.1 C
25 Slithy Toves Brillig USA 25.2 B
26 Blade Bombers Blade6119 USA 27.1 A
27 Seagrove United auwillie USA 27.2 M
28 NE Oklahoma Sidekicks vexroid USA 29 L
29 Flying Condors condors USA 32 K
30 Toledo Drunkards Rich1033 USA 33.1 J
31 G-Vegas FC Easy Mac USA 33.2 I
32 Tomahawks -Panther USA 36 H
33 Maniacal Misfitz Havok USA 37.1 G
34 Fantastic Flying Froggies fantastic flying froggiesFrance 37.2 F
35 Oklahoma City Rednecks Airhog USA 37.3 E
36 Lancre Wowhawks Katon England 40 D
37 Eugene Emeralds JHandley USA 41 C
38 Reign HeavyReign USA 42.1 B
39 Bamas superbama USA 42.2 A
40 Complex Spikes Masked USA 44.1 M
41 Fairfax Admirals awm9a USA 44.2 L
42 Boston Wyckyd Sceptre RonnieDobbs USA 44.3 K
43 AnalBumCovers AnalBumCover USA 49.1 J
44 Fighting Crawfish The Afoci USA 49.2 I
45 White Sox Pride Aesyrqwe USA 51.1 H
46 West Henrietta FC bigjdotcom01 USA 51.2 G
47 Manhattan Marauders NAIWF USA 51.3 F
48 S. Boston Hooligans McSweeny USA 54.1 E
49 Spring Grove Fighting Eagleillifan999 USA 54.2 D
50 West Fargo Stangs leverb66 USA 56 C
51 Gasmasters Fonzie USA 58.1 B
52 goldurnears robbgmaier USA 58.2 A
53 Golden Eagles FC GoldenEagle USA 61 M
54 McGees AccardoOutfit29 USA 62 L
55 Scranton Slime TredWel USA 63 K
56 Else United rexallsc USA 64 J
57 booger ballers fflix USA 65 I
58 Bbors bbor Canada 66 H
59 Goldfish MikeVic Canada 68 G
60 Shadow Dragons Astott USA 71 F
61 Square Pegs mckerney USA 72 E
62 Aviators damnMikeBrown USA 73.1 D
63 Rochester Roosters dacman USA 73.2 C
64 FC Hartford samifan24 USA 73.3 B
65 Concord Assassins BishopMVP USA 73.4 A
66 Newton Rams GrantDawg USA 77 M
67 Plowboys Calis USA 79 L
68 Port Angeles Colossal SquidWSUCougar USA 81 K
69 Shaw_Shanksters Superman=#54 USA 83 J
70 Pintendre Pittbulls FrogMan Canada 84 I
71 Little Green Monsters SplitPersonality1 USA 86 H
72 Michigan Moon Shine DeToxRoxDVHStyle USA 88.1 G
73 North Plainfield Plague cthomer5000 USA 88.2 F
74 Missouri Tigers Achilles USA 90 E
75 First Coast Conquistadors MylesKnight USA 91 D
76 Frankfort United DukeRulesMAB USA 92 C
77 IFK Bananskruv 3ric Sverige 93 B
78 Manchester Silver Bullets Sublime USA 94 A
</font>

[HornedFrog Purple]

These are the 13 group, 6-team groupings (A-M):

SEED TEAM FOFC MEMBER COUNTRY 19.03-RANK GROUP TEAM
1 MoKan Mighty Bastards Meanstrosity USA cup2 win A 1
26 Blade Bombers Blade6119 USA 27.1 A 2
39 Bamas superbama USA 42.2 A 3
52 goldurnears robbgmaier USA 58.2 A 4
65 Concord Assassins BishopMVP USA 73.4 A 5
78 Manchester Silver Bullets Sublime USA 94 A 6

SEED TEAM FOFC MEMBER COUNTRY 19.03-RANK GROUP TEAM
2 Ruskies The_herd USA cup2 run-up B 1
25 Slithy Toves Brillig USA 25.2 B 2
38 Reign HeavyReign USA 42.1 B 3
51 Gasmasters Fonzie USA 58.1 B 4
64 FC Hartford samifan24 USA 73.3 B 5
77 IFK Bananskruv 3ric Sverige 93 B 6

SEED TEAM FOFC MEMBER COUNTRY 19.03-RANK GROUP TEAM
3 Bees ausonny USA cons cup win C 1
24 Isla Vista Vandals Vince USA 25.1 C 2
37 Eugene Emeralds JHandley USA 41 C 3
50 West Fargo Stangs leverb66 USA 56 C 4
63 Rochester Roosters dacman USA 73.2 C 5
76 Frankfort United DukeRulesMAB USA 92 C 6

SEED TEAM FOFC MEMBER COUNTRY 19.03-RANK GROUP TEAM
4 Gargoyles Ravenhawk USA lost semi D 1
21 Negative Waves moriarty USA 21 D 2
36 Lancre Wowhawks Katon England 40 D 6
49 Spring Grove Fighting Eagleillifan999 USA 54.2 D 4
62 Aviators damnMikeBrown USA 73.1 D 5
75 First Coast Conquistadors MylesKnight USA 91 D 3

SEED TEAM FOFC MEMBER COUNTRY 19.03-RANK GROUP TEAM
5 Midwest Ice Storm FC Pilotman USA lost semi E 1
22 Houston Hippopotami sterlingice USA 22 E 2
35 Oklahoma City Rednecks Airhog USA 37.3 E 3
48 S. Boston Hooligans McSweeny USA 54.1 E 4
61 Square Pegs mckerney USA 72 E 5
74 Missouri Tigers Achilles USA 90 E 6

SEED TEAM FOFC MEMBER COUNTRY 19.03-RANK GROUP TEAM
6 Screamin' Seamen dataking USA 2 F 1
23 Alf Trickers Alf France 24 F 2
34 Fantastic Flying Froggies fantastic flying froggiesFrance 37.2 F 3
47 Manhattan Marauders NAIWF USA 51.3 F 4
60 Shadow Dragons Astott USA 71 F 5
73 North Plainfield Plague cthomer5000 USA 88.2 F 6

SEED TEAM FOFC MEMBER COUNTRY 19.03-RANK GROUP TEAM
7 Slumlords winking pirate USA 4 G 1
20 Arkham Avengers Nylarlahotep USA 19 G 2
33 Maniacal Misfitz Havok USA 37.1 G 3
46 West Henrietta FC bigjdotcom01 USA 51.2 G 4
59 Goldfish MikeVic Canada 68 G 6
72 Michigan Moon Shine DeToxRoxDVHStyle USA 88.1 G 5

SEED TEAM FOFC MEMBER COUNTRY 19.03-RANK GROUP TEAM
8 SouthPark Cows lytic USA 6 H 1
19 Chesapeake Cheapshots Quiksand USA 17 H 2
32 Tomahawks -Panther USA 36 H 3
45 White Sox Pride Aesyrqwe USA 51.1 H 4
58 Bbors bbor Canada 66 H 6
71 Little Green Monsters SplitPersonality1 USA 86 H 5

SEED TEAM FOFC MEMBER COUNTRY 19.03-RANK GROUP TEAM
9 North County Raiders Ardent Enthusiast USA 7 I 1
18 Louisiana Cyclones Doug5984 USA 16 I 2
31 G-Vegas FC Easy Mac USA 33.2 I 3
44 Fighting Crawfish The Afoci USA 49.2 I 4
57 booger ballers fflix USA 65 I 5
70 Pintendre Pittbulls FrogMan Canada 84 I 6

SEED TEAM FOFC MEMBER COUNTRY 19.03-RANK GROUP TEAM
10 Hamas Mad Bombers astralhaze USA 8 J 1
17 Aardvarks Aylmar USA 15 J 2
30 Toledo Drunkards Rich1033 USA 33.1 J 3
43 AnalBumCovers AnalBumCover USA 49.1 J 4
56 Else United rexallsc USA 64 J 5
69 Shaw_Shanksters Superman=#54 USA 83 J 6

SEED TEAM FOFC MEMBER COUNTRY 19.03-RANK GROUP TEAM
11 Ultra Nox Qwikshot USA 9 K 1
16 Calibiri Daedalus USA 14 K 2
29 Flying Condors condors USA 32 K 3
42 Boston Wyckyd Sceptre RonnieDobbs USA 44.3 K 4
55 Scranton Slime TredWel USA 63 K 5
68 Port Angeles Colossal SquidWSUCougar USA 81 K 6

SEED TEAM FOFC MEMBER COUNTRY 19.03-RANK GROUP TEAM
12 Morrisville Morrisvillians NevStar USA 10 L 1
15 Cedar Pond Horned Toads HornedFrog Purple USA 13 L 2
28 NE Oklahoma Sidekicks vexroid USA 29 L 3
41 Fairfax Admirals awm9a USA 44.2 L 4
54 McGees AccardoOutfit29 USA 62 L 5
67 Plowboys Calis USA 79 L 6

SEED TEAM FOFC MEMBER COUNTRY 19.03-RANK GROUP TEAM
13 Galesburg Avengers Coffee Warlord USA 11.1 M 1
14 Cowtown FC Mrushh USA 11.2 M 2
27 Seagrove United auwillie USA 27.2 M 3
40 Complex Spikes Masked USA 44.1 M 4
53 Golden Eagles FC GoldenEagle USA 61 M 5
66 Newton Rams GrantDawg USA 77 M 6

[GoldenEagle]

I am looking forward to winning Group M. :)

[Doug5984]

HornedFrog- Is it the 1st and 2nd place teams from each division then a few (6?)of the best 3rd place finishes advance? Also, is the tournament single elimination?

[The_herd]

Originally posted by HornedFrog Purple

12 Morrisville Morrisvillians NevStar
15 Cedar Pond Horned Toads HornedFrog Purple
28 NE Oklahoma Sidekicks vexroid
41 Fairfax Admirals awm9a
54 McGees AccardoOutfit29
67 Plowboys Calis




This is a pretty damn tough group.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Originally posted by Doug5984
HornedFrog- Is it the 1st and 2nd place teams from each division then a few (6?)of the best 3rd place finishes advance? Also, is the tournament single elimination?

Good question. The vote determined in the dynasty poll forum that 32 teams advance from the group stage, so yes:

13 1st place + 13 2nd place + 6 3rd place will go to a single elimination tournament. I will explain all the tiebreakers and stuff hopefully tomorrow and the website will have it too.

[FrogMan]

Please everyone note that the Pittbulls are supporters of the Crawfish and certainly hope to keep their sacks intact and without any Crawfish attached to them. Thank you.

FrogMan

[NevStar]

Group L = Group of Death. :(

[NYFAN]

I thought I had signed up a while ago??

[HornedFrog Purple]

NYFAN I never saw you on the signup thread?

http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6920

I am double-checking again did I miss it?

[HornedFrog Purple]

Well thanks to FrogMan the site is up with groups and schedules. There will be a little tweaking to the tiebreakers part but everything else is correct.

The Officialish FOFC Cup III website (http://webhome.idirect.com/~stevegougeon/FOFC-cup/)

[Qwikshot]

Very cool...good job to you both.

[Coffee Warlord]

You know. It feels kind of nice being the top dog in a group.

BOW DOWN BEFORE GALESBURG, PEONS! :)

[bbor]

bbor's will need freindlies after the 1st week if anyone is interested :)

[Ally]

haha. how many players would you like me to injure, bbor? ;)

[Doug5984]

Hornedfrog / Frogman - When I click on the Group page for Group I, I get a message saying "Not Found
The requested URL /~stevegougeon/FOFC-cup/I_files/sheet013.htm was not found on this server."

However, I checked and group A does work...

[NYFAN]

Hey, I don't see my name there either. But I thought I signed up for it a while ago, like a month or so ago. I guess I could be wrong, I don't lurk around these boards too often anymore so maybe I'm thinking of something else i signed up for. Anyway, I'd like to be in any future FOFC cups if there's anyway you can contact me when you plan on doing it I'd appreciate it. I'll try and stop by here more often though.

[Raven]

If you guys need more, I'd like to get in! Sorry, I didnt see the other thread. Count me, NYFan, and Neuqua - he would like in im sure. There's 3. Only 10 more to go

[NYFAN]

I just went back and looked at my past posts (pretty cool feature) and I couldn't find it there, so I guess I must have been thinking about something else... anyhow, I'd definitely like in if there's an opportunity, if not I understand, but if you could just let me know next time I'd really appreciate it.

[vex]

Before the cup, I was #9 in the FOFC NSI, so we actually have 3 teams in the top 15 in Group L, this'll be fun.

[the_meanstrosity]

Great job Horned. Very good stuff.

Owner of the MoKan Mighty Bastards

[Brillig]

This looks really great guys! Great job of organizing and a very cool webpage...

Can't wait to get started :)

[GoldenEagle]

I also want to second the great job done by HFP and others who helped.

[sterlingice]

Amazing job, HFP, getting this together and everything.

I guess my B team cost me a bit in week 3 but no big deal- I'm ready to play. Hope you guys enjoy playing my B team. Anyone in E can easily scout my team- I'm a pretty open book over in the dynasty reports ;) {end shameless plug}

SI

[Vince]

Hey, in the interest of saving some teams some money, my team is not in dire financial straits, and if you would like to move me to a group with foreigners, I would have no problem with that.

Otherwise looking forward to it!

[fantastic flying froggies]

Wow, I get to play two of my FOFC heroes, Alf and CTHomer (the guy who had me sign up just because of his Rutgers dynasty !)... FFF is truly honoured to be in such company...

[Alf]

And we also get to play Dataking's Screamin Seamen !!! This guy was second on the USA U-20 coach elections !!!

[daedalus]

Thanks Horned! :)

[Airhog]

you guys in group E are going down :D

Also, can we go ahead and setup a consolation tournament?

so it would be the remaining 7 teams that come in third place, the 13 teams in 4th place and 12 of the 5th place teams.

when do we start playing games? I have alread booked a friendly this week, so I hoping they start next week.

[DukeRulesMAB]

Very much looking forward to providing a nice doormat for Group C. :)

[FrogMan]

Originally posted by Doug5984
Hornedfrog / Frogman - When I click on the Group page for Group I, I get a message saying "Not Found
The requested URL /~stevegougeon/FOFC-cup/I_files/sheet013.htm was not found on this server."

However, I checked and group A does work...

oops, I might have forgotten to upload the page for group I. sorry about that. Will correct it tonight, since allof my stuff is at home...

FrogMan

[illinifan999]

How come I don't play in weeks 3 and 4? Or is that just a typo on the group page?

[illinifan999]

Nevermind, the games show up now.

[Rich1033]

A big thanks to Horned and everyone else who has done any work on this thing, it looks like its going to be a lot of fun.

Go Group J!

[samifan24]

Sorry if this was answered already, but when do we get started?

[Nyarlahotep]

Wow, sweet job. When is the latest we need to start by?

[dacman]

The last league game this season is July 6 thus the first next season should be July 20 which means the first cup game next season should be July 16? That would mean a final no later than July 9 which, working backwards, puts week 1's games at April 30th! That's next week! Is that right? Does the world cup change the offseason this time around?

[HornedFrog Purple]

Originally posted by NYFAN
I just went back and looked at my past posts (pretty cool feature) and I couldn't find it there, so I guess I must have been thinking about something else... anyhow, I'd definitely like in if there's an opportunity, if not I understand, but if you could just let me know next time I'd really appreciate it.

Ok NYFAN and I am sorry. :( There was a lot of things going on at the time (family in Iraq etc) and I have to admit I had the Cup on the backburner. I will bookmark you in hattrick and make sure I email you the next time. And for future reference, start looking around the break between seasons for it, it will be in this forum.

As far as when this Cup starts, the latest it can start is May 8th. I am pretty sure it will start before then though. Make sure to look here and I will also post a newsletter in the fed.

If someone would like to run the consolation cup, feel free to. That way we can get more people involved in doing things.

[BishopMVP]

Thanks HFP, Frogman, everyone else who helped.....especially for putting me in an easy group.

[HornedFrog Purple]

By the way, while browsing around hattrick I *think* this is one of the top 3 non-national Cups done in terms of size, so this is a great achievement. Way to go FOFC!

[Brillig]

I think you're a bit off, dacman -

Last league game is July 7
Qualifiers are played July 14
Season change-over (off day) is July 21
First game of new season is July 28
First cup game of new season is July 24

So something like this:

FOFC III Group Play (5 weeks) - May 15 to June 12
FOFC III First Elimination round - June 19
FOFC III Round of 16 - June 26
FOFC III Quarters - July 3
FOFC III Semis - July 10
FOFC III Final - July 17


Which isn't to say we can't start earlier if everyone is eliminated from the USA Open Cup...

[DataKing]

Originally posted by Alf
And we also get to play Dataking's Screamin Seamen !!! This guy was second on the USA U-20 coach elections !!!

:D :D :D

I get to beat up on the French. Thanks HFP.

Just kidding, of course. ;)

[NAIWF]

What's up with my road schedule? 2 trips to France, and one to the Docks... must remind myself that I need to bring some nose plugs ;) just kidding guys. I probably will need to bring some padded seats for the long plane rides home after getting my ass kicked three times!

[dacman]

Originally posted by Brillig
I think you're a bit off, dacman -



I knew that didn't seem right. So I guess the answer to the question of the latest start is May 15.

[FrogMan]

Originally posted by DataKing
:D :D :D

I get to beat up on the French. Thanks HFP.

Just kidding, of course. ;)

At least, you won't get to beat up on the French Canadian ;)

That'll be a pleasure exclusively reserved to Ardent, Doug, Easy Mac, and the angry, and I mean angry, The Afoci and his Crawfish... Ohh I can't wait....

FrogMan

[Vince]

Excellent job everyone with the website and the organization...this is going to be a blast :)

Looking forward to taking Group C by storm! :D

I can set up the consolation bracket; how should seedings for consolation go, though? Should points in group play be the deciding factor, or original seed? I'm thinking Points in group play is the first determining factor, and then first tiebreaker is original seed, just to simplify it. However, like some said, there are some groups that seem to be a little 'stacked' (group L for example); might be a little unfair to those not making it out of groups like that.

[AccardoOutfit29]

Dear god, getting out of group L is going to be tough. Hopefully I can at least compete in it. :D

Thanks to everyone who helped to put this cup together, this is going to be awesome!

[FrogMan]

Originally posted by Doug5984
Hornedfrog / Frogman - When I click on the Group page for Group I, I get a message saying "Not Found
The requested URL /~stevegougeon/FOFC-cup/I_files/sheet013.htm was not found on this server."

However, I checked and group A does work...

Okay, page I has been corrected and everything seems to be in working order.

Let me or HFP know if anything isn't working right. Thanks.

FrogMan

[Nyarlahotep]

Are we not playing with cup rules?

[Airhog]

I would think we would only play with cup rules in the single elimination tourney.

Just like the real world cup :D

[vex]

I say Cup rules all the way through the Cup, for money reasons.

[Nyarlahotep]

Originally posted by Airhog
I would think we would only play with cup rules in the single elimination tourney.

Just like the real world cup :D

There's a real world cup? I thought htey just made that up for Hattrick.

Anyways it was just my debt talking. It said I need the extra revenue:(

[vex]

I agree with that.

[DataKing]

We'll move to cup rules once group play is over with.

[The Afoci]

The Crawfish(now somewhat financally stable) are looking forward to testing some Laser Blasters on the poor squads of Group I. And remember, always use protection...your wife could've had a visit from "You better guard your daughters or else they could be" Les "their" Cherry"s"... Just a warning :)

[HornedFrog Purple]

Oh for the group stage, cup rules are off. When we get to the knockout stage (32 teams), they are on. I will ask FrogMan to put that in the groups pages if he doesn't mind when he has time.

SEED TEAM FOFC MEMBER COUNTRY 19.03-RANK GROUP TEAM
12 Morrisville Morrisvillians NevStar USA 10 L 1
15 Cedar Pond Horned Toads HornedFrog Purple USA 13 L 2
28 NE Oklahoma Sidekicks vexroid USA 29 L 3
41 Fairfax Admirals awm9a USA 44.2 L 4
54 McGees AccardoOutfit29 USA 62 L 5
67 Plowboys Calis USA 79 L 6

I would like to officialishly dub this Group heLL

[moriarty]

Awesome Work!!!

[FrogMan]

Originally posted by HornedFrog Purple
Oh for the group stage, cup rules are off. When we get to the knockout stage (32 teams), they are on. I will ask FrogMan to put that in the groups pages if he doesn't mind when he has time.


I'll do that at some point before the weekend. I'll add some kind of mention to the effect that normal rules are to be used when booking matches. This should appear in the group pages, under the mention that bold team are playing at home...

FrogMan

[NAIWF]

Is it OK to schedule a friendly for next week? I'm playing my league game on the road and really need some incoming cash.

[MikeVic]

Does Week 1 start next Wednesday (30th)?

[Nyarlahotep]

It shouldn't. There will still be some teams in their national cup games.

[Alf]

I'm off of the French cup too (lost 3-0 to a top Div II team while PICing). If the cup doesn't start next week (which seems to be the case), I am scheduling a friendly.

[DukeRulesMAB]

Curiosity: Since we have so many teams left in the USA Cup (not even including TP who isn't in the FOFC Cup), it seems the odds are pretty high that at least one will pull an upset. Is the plan to replace those teams with waiting list teams or rework the format?

[Nyarlahotep]

Originally posted by DukeRulesMAB
Curiosity: Since we have so many teams left in the USA Cup (not even including TP who isn't in the FOFC Cup), it seems the odds are pretty high that at least one will pull an upset. Is the plan to replace those teams with waiting list teams or rework the format?


Since we don't have to start until May 15, I don't think we need to look for contingency plans yet.

[Brillig]

One caution - that May 15th date was what I calculated. HFP, the Master of the Cup, mentioned a May 8th date - so if anyone wins next week, we might have a problem with the FOFC Cup start.

[dacman]

If we do start May 8 -- any team still in the cup could forfeit their first FOFC Cup game. Any team good enough to get that far in the cup probably could overcome a forfeit anyway. Might not be very fair for the rest of teams in that group, though.

[ausonny]

I guess group C is the easiest group to get out of, if I'm the #1 seed. No team with a higher rank than 25 is in that group. If I'm the only #1 seed to not make it out, I'm gonna be just a tad embarrassed!

:)

[ausonny]

Dola:

It could also be the closest and most exciting, so there is an upside.

[Doug5984]

Bump

[mckerney]

My group (Group E)has 3 teams ranked fairly closely, then two teams ahead of everyone else (higest 12 or 13), and then one that looks to be a group pushover. Should be a race between the 3-5 teams to finish at number 3 and possibly move on.

[GrantDawg]

Is it going to start this week, or do we need friendly plans? (ps. If we do, I need a friendly).

[mckerney]

Friendlies this week, then the cup.

[NAIWF]

It's starting the 14th/15th depending on where you are in the world.