Law School (Ping all lawyers and other folks who know them)

[Noop]

Alright after pretty much putting off law school for a year I have decided to enroll this fall. So if anyone has some advice for a OL(term used for people like me who aren't in law school but will be in the fall) such as prep, advice, guidance or whatever let me know.

I hope this gets some traction but if not I might have to start harassing the lawyers I know of on this board. Molson, Ksryup and who else?

[Ksyrup]

Have you already chosen a school?

Best thing you could do is familiarize yourself with cases, statutes, and the general legal process just so you have some baseline for what you're going to do. It's hard enough to dive right in and have to learn/understand the law they are teaching, but when you tack on all the other stuff, it makes it that much harder.

Work your ass off for the first year. In my experience (granted, I graduated 15 years ago...[holy shit!]), grades really only matter first semester or so. If you make top 10% or so, you'll get all the interviews unless you have some life/work experience that a firm might be interested in (for instance, we had a doctor and an former airline pilot who got some big-time interest from firms). After that, the old adage of C=JD is pretty much the way it works.

[Noop]

Have you already chosen a school?

Best thing you could do is familiarize yourself with cases, statutes, and the general legal process just so you have some baseline for what you're going to do. It's hard enough to dive right in and have to learn/understand the law they are teaching, but when you tack on all the other stuff, it makes it that much harder.

Work your ass off for the first year. In my experience (granted, I graduated 15 years ago...[holy shit!]), grades really only matter first semester or so. If you make top 10% or so, you'll get all the interviews unless you have some life/work experience that a firm might be interested in (for instance, we had a doctor and an former airline pilot who got some big-time interest from firms). After that, the old adage of C=JD is pretty much the way it works.

I have chosen the school however for the sake of anonymity I perfer not to say but it is a T50 school if that helps. I will say that Minnesota made one hell of an impression on me but the distance and cold were big negatives. I have heard that I should read "Getting to Maybe" and do LEEWS.

As for familiarizing myself with statues and such do you have any books you can recommend?

[Ksyrup]

Are you staying in-state? I'm sure there are books out there to prep for law school, but I'm not familiar with them. Honestly, I'd figure out what state you expect to practice in and try to familiarize yourself with their statutes, the nomenclature, the court structure, government, and read some cases just to try to learn a little bit about how to read a case before you get 5-6 classes worth of case reading assignments the first week of school.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Hey, Noop.

I'm a lawyer and am more than happy to help as well. I owe you for all of your kick-ass .gifs and what not.

Ksyrup's advice is good. I am 11 years removed from law school now and about 14 years removed from when I was entering it. I don't recall doing anything to prepare, though it couldn't hurt. I felt pretty lost the first couple of months.

I am not sure if reading statutes is really going to help. If you are attending a school that has a bit of a national reputation you aren't likely going to be focusing on any particular state statutes. Your typical first year course load wont be very statute heavy either from what I recall.

I think familiarizing yourself with some the language is a good way to go, but again, I didn't do anything so there's nothing I could recommend. There are a number of outline type guides out there that cover first year courses - criminal law, property, contracts, constitutional law, etc. - so looking over those could help, but, at least for me, outside of the classroom I would have trouble putting them into context.

The first year is hard. It's by far the hardest year. Like Ksyrup said, learning how to read cases is a bit of an art. It takes some time at first. The good thing is, however, is that a case that might take you an hour or so to read in your first year will only take you 10-15 minutes by your third year.

First year is also critical for things like law review and even summer internships and jobs. The best recommendation I could make is totally clear your schedule of almost everything. Sure, give yourself time to relax and have fun, but if you can avoid it, don't work at all during your first year and really bear down. A strong first year really goes a long, long way.

The legal market has recovered somewhat after the last couple of years, but it still remains soft. It's a much different world now. It used to be so long as you were at a top school and did well enough, not even great, you'd almost certainly be guaranteed a great firm job (if that's the path you chose) coming out of school. That's not so much the case anymore, but big firms are still hiring and if you do well there will be a job for you.

[molson]

The first year is hard. It's by far the hardest year. Like Ksyrup said, learning how to read cases is a bit of an art. It takes some time at first. The good thing is, however, is that a case that might take you an hour or so to read in your first year will only take you 10-15 minutes by your third year.

First year is also critical for things like law review and even summer internships and jobs.

I'd highlight those two things. In particular - take that hour (or longer) to read that case. Reading old supreme court opinions for the first time and understanding them is whole new kettle of fish, there's nothing in your previous education that can really prepare you for it. I went a little overboard on the various study aids/case summaries/etc. Professors have mixed feelings on those but I think it helped me a lot to get the bigger picture of everything. But ya, the point was, take the extra hours to understand. Appellate law is really a language that you need to learn, and that's the language that American law schools generally use to teach law.

And two, the most important thing after your grades is getting that 1L summer job/internship. Those are very competitive these days. I spent many, many hours researching and applying to various firms and government offices. As it turned out, both my 1L and 2L summers I got (low) paying summer government jobs that didn't even exist before I pitched myself and what I would do for them. They were tremendous experiences and they got my foot in the door. I think you said that you were more interested in private/big law kind of stuff - I don't know much about that job market, but I think the point is the same - really commit to getting the best spot you can over the summers, whether that means creating your own opportunity, or aggressively preparing for the OCI process.

And I guess I'd add - I think it helps to, as much as possible, have that idea of what you want to do and where you want to practice. Ideally, you're going to school where you want to practice. If you're involved in law school, have summer gigs in that area, are meeting attorneys, etc, you'll be a known quantity in that legal community and that helps a lot....Though - it's not a fixed rule - I had another theory at one time that, depending on the size of the law school and the number and quality of nearby law schools, it was best to get away from that glut and gain your experience in places that don't have such an endless supply of cheap legal labor (for me, Alaska, and then Southern Idaho.) So there's no one right plan - but it helps to have a plan, I think. If you're going to do the straight OCI/big-law thing, that's going to be brutal and competitive - you really have to kick everyone else's ass and have that mindset early. I honestly didn't have the stomach/drive for that so I went more for the stealth job hunting route.

[JeeberD]

As for familiarizing myself with statues and such do you have any books you can recommend?

This one should help...

http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/3540/statuen.jpg



Sorry, I couldn't resist

[Ksyrup]

I am not sure if reading statutes is really going to help. If you are attending a school that has a bit of a national reputation you aren't likely going to be focusing on any particular state statutes. Your typical first year course load wont be very statute heavy either from what I recall.

Yeah, I guess I agree with that, especially for the first year. Although, in first year wills/trusts and criminal procedure, they included a healthy dose of Florida-specific law, which included references to statutes and rules. As I went further in law school and started taking some Florida speciality courses, there was much more emphasis on statutes. And of course, I ended up clerking and then working as an attorney for a state governmental agency, which was all about the statutes.

[albionmoonlight]

Yeah--1L year (and the first semester thereof) is very important. That can't be said enough.

I would also say to not drown yourself in canned study-aids and outlines and the like. Your professor will be giving the exam--not the canned outline people. It is much more important to understand what the professor thinks about torts--in her language--than the outline. Not saying that those aids don't have a place. But your study time is finite, and most of it should be spent on the casebook and the lecture notes.

Also, wait to buy anything that you want/need as a study aid until your first week or so. Anything that the bookstore will be charging full price for, you can buy off a 2L or a 3L for a bargain basement price. It is a buyer's market for used study aids, law dictionaries, etc.

I also found two things particularly helpful in prepping for exams. First, I wrote up detailed outlines of my notes and used that outline to study. I did NOT just copy and paste the notes into an outline. I rewrote them. The process of having to go through my notes and rewrite them was hugely helpful--moreso than actually having the outline itself.

Finally, UNC kept copies of old exams in a database in the library. Not sure how common that is. If at all possible, try to see if you can (legally & ethically) get copies of the old exams from your professors. Some even came with model answers. This, again, was HUGELY helpful. Some professors are more interested in how well you know the rules. Some with how good you are at taking rules from one context and placing them in another. Some always through in a hypothetical "policy" question (i.e., what are the pros and cons of [legal policy X] and what are some possible avenues of reform). Knowing the style and focus on the person giving the exam is such a leg up.

Good luck!

[Noop]

Good advice all around gents. I am very interested in opening my own firm and eventually parlaying that into an empire (big dreamer I know). I have interest in criminal and real estate with the latter being the what I want to do with my firm/empire.

The comments about first year being important has been echoed by others and I happy to hear it is definitely true across the board. I would like to live in Florida if possible but if school takes me to New York or Washington D.C. (note I wish Georgetown wasn't so expensive) I would do it for a while then open my own thing.

I should graduate law school with very low debt (hurray for scholarships) and hopefully after working for a big firms have enough money to do my own thing. Who knows... I am just going in with the mindset that law school is a competition and networking is key.

One more question the exam is the only thing that matters correct? For those of you who are hiring partners does Law Review matter or do you prefer Moot Court?

[albionmoonlight]

One more question the exam is the only thing that matters correct? For those of you who are hiring partners does Law Review matter or do you prefer Moot Court?

In most classes, it is all about the exam. The syllabus will tell you if that is not the case.

And, in general Law Review is seen a most prestigious than Moot Court. Some people's mileage may vary on that, but that's the impression I got.

[Noop]

In most classes, it is all about the exam. The syllabus will tell you if that is not the case.

And, in general Law Review is seen a most prestigious than Moot Court. Some people's mileage may vary on that, but that's the impression I got.

I suspected as much. When did you go to law school? Did you do any OL prep? If so can you share? Or if you heard anyone else who prepped.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Good advice all around gents. I am very interested in opening my own firm and eventually parlaying that into an empire (big dreamer I know). I have interest in criminal and real estate with the latter being the what I want to do with my firm/empire.

The comments about first year being important has been echoed by others and I happy to hear it is definitely true across the board. I would like to live in Florida if possible but if school takes me to New York or Washington D.C. (note I wish Georgetown wasn't so expensive) I would do it for a while then open my own thing.

I should graduate law school with very low debt (hurray for scholarships) and hopefully after working for a big firms have enough money to do my own thing. Who knows... I am just going in with the mindset that law school is a competition and networking is key.

One more question the exam is the only thing that matters correct? For those of you who are hiring partners does Law Review matter or do you prefer Moot Court?

Well, if your empire works out, perhaps I will join it at some point.

As for law review versus moot court. It really depends on the hiring partner and what you want to do. If you want to go into litigation, civil or criminal, Moot Court is great experience. Moot Court is less helpful if you want to do corporate or real estate, for example. Law Reveiw is generally solid and is definitely looked on favorably.

Neither are required. I didn't do either and got a job no problem. Then again, it was a different time when I was coming out and there were jobs a-plenty, so if the opportunity it there, take it.

[Noop]

Well, if your empire works out, perhaps I will join it at some point.

As for law review versus moot court. It really depends on the hiring partner and what you want to do. If you want to go into litigation, civil or criminal, Moot Court is great experience. Moot Court is less helpful if you want to do corporate or real estate, for example. Law Reveiw is generally solid and is definitely looked on favorably.

Neither are required. I didn't do either and got a job no problem. Then again, it was a different time when I was coming out and there were jobs a-plenty, so if the opportunity it there, take it.

It is definitely a sketchy job market right now especially with the overflow of lawyers now. In this process of learning about school I have tried to humble myself to realizing everyone else will be working just as hard as me. So things like Law Review, Moot Court or whatever might not even happen I just want to be above the median with hopes of cracking the top 10%.

When I get the empire off the ground and running (15 year plan after law school) I will give you a shout.

[Noop]

I do want to add that I am in between freaking out and feeling confident. I hope this is normal because it effects my coaching.

[stevew]

Is any of the LSAT stuff worth buying? I'm probably going to go to law school in 2 years when I finally graduate. I should have the grades and recommendations but want to make sure to nail the LSAT cause I'd prefer to get into (for example) Case Western instead of U of Akron.

[albionmoonlight]

I suspected as much. When did you go to law school? Did you do any OL prep? If so can you share? Or if you heard anyone else who prepped.

99-02.

And I didn't really do any prep. I didn't have time--I was doing a volunteer year in Alaska and pretty much went right from that to law school.

I actually think that 0L prep of that nature is probably not super helpful, honestly. So much depends on your exams. And your exams depend on your professors. And before you can meet your professors, there is only so much you can do to help yourself.

Maybe the best prep would be to get all of your life in order (i.e. get your housing, finances, and transportation settled; figure out your routines vis a vis the grocery, etc.) before school so that you can focus on school 100% when you start. You don't want to be distracting yourself by having to wait for the cable guy to show up when you could have been doing all of that the weeks before. At a minimum, you could be using that time to get to know your classmates.

Oh, and, in life, I find the best "networking" happens when I am just trying to be friends with people. Whenever I have tried to "network," it has gone nowhere. The connections that have actually helped me professionally are people with whom I became friends who then happened to later be in a position to help me. YMMV.

[Noop]

Is any of the LSAT stuff worth buying? I'm probably going to go to law school in 2 years when I finally graduate. I should have the grades and recommendations but want to make sure to nail the LSAT cause I'd prefer to get into (for example) Case Western instead of U of Akron.

The first time I took the LSAT I took it cold with no prep. Scored a 157 the next time I used Powerscore, Princeton Review and as many practice test as i can find and buy. I did this and crushed the LSAT with a score over 165. I know others may have told you this but make sure you do good on the LSAT. If you crush it you will be in line for scholarships which will allow you to leave school with zero to no debt. I think that is important considering that law school can accrue about 100k in debt for students.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I do want to add that I am in between freaking out and feeling confident. I hope this is normal because it effects my coaching.

This is completely normal. Exactly how I felt going in.


Maybe the best prep would be to get all of your life in order (i.e. get your housing, finances, and transportation settled; figure out your routines vis a vis the grocery, etc.) before school so that you can focus on school 100% when you start. You don't want to be distracting yourself by having to wait for the cable guy to show up when you could have been doing all of that the weeks before. At a minimum, you could be using that time to get to know your classmates.

I totally agree with this. I didn't do any kind of prep work going into law school, but I had nothing else other than law school to deal with going in. It was my entire focus for the first semester and much of my focus during my second semester. I lived in the law school dorms my first year. It helped because it takes care of a lot of that, housing, finances, transportation, food, etc.). The downside was, however, that your world becomes for insular and the pressure can get silly, especially during finals times.

[Noop]

99-02.

And I didn't really do any prep. I didn't have time--I was doing a volunteer year in Alaska and pretty much went right from that to law school.

I actually think that 0L prep of that nature is probably not super helpful, honestly. So much depends on your exams. And your exams depend on your professors. And before you can meet your professors, there is only so much you can do to help yourself.

Maybe the best prep would be to get all of your life in order (i.e. get your housing, finances, and transportation settled; figure out your routines vis a vis the grocery, etc.) before school so that you can focus on school 100% when you start. You don't want to be distracting yourself by having to wait for the cable guy to show up when you could have been doing all of that the weeks before. At a minimum, you could be using that time to get to know your classmates.

Oh, and, in life, I find the best "networking" happens when I am just trying to be friends with people. Whenever I have tried to "network," it has gone nowhere. The connections that have actually helped me professionally are people with whom I became friends who then happened to later be in a position to help me. YMMV.

I wish I could move before August but I have to finish up my AAU commitments. I have about 10 days to get settled in at my new place so hopefully I will be good to go with everything. I guess a benefit for me would be a tournament is being held near the school i am attending (hour and a half ride) and I will be able to check out the local scene.

[molson]

It is definitely a sketchy job market right now especially with the overflow of lawyers now. In this process of learning about school I have tried to humble myself to realizing everyone else will be working just as hard as me. So things like Law Review, Moot Court or whatever might not even happen I just want to be above the median with hopes of cracking the top 10%.



It's good to try to be humble - law schools are under serious heat right now for lying about job placements and salary data, etc. And the thing with law school rankings - there's usually a super elite small handful of students at the top, and a bigger group of very smart, very motivated students who will fall anywhere in that top 50%, (but outside the top 5%). And while the rankings and evaluating of students is probably mostly fair and accurate - there's still some about randomness in how things ultimately shake out. You're not borrowing a ton, so this doesn't apply as much to you, but many students are taking huge loans and banking on big law, and that's just not going to materialize for most of them outside of the top 14 law schools. And for the ones that it does work out for - you have to really want to that lifestyle - 2k+ billing hours or whatever, etc. Some people can definitely pull off the life balance with that type of schedule, but I think a lot struggle with it.

[Ksyrup]

For 1L exam prep, it was helpful for us to break into 2-3 person outline groups and create outlines together. Not only were we able to better fill in the gaps we might have had in our notes with what others had in their notes, but during the process, the discussions we had over stuff we didn't quite understand were invaluable. It should go without saying, though, that you need to be supremely confident in the people you are working with. I was lucky to have a group of about 8 solid people I was good friends with, and we kinda broke out into our own little groups based mainly on which of us had the same professors.

There are probably outlines floating around for particular professors, too. I found those to be helpful as a supplement to what I was preparing. In 3L, there was one outline that was so well done, I only went to class 5 days and got an A. By that point, I was ready to leave school and all about clerking. At FSU, there is the legend of a guy who graduated a few years before me (early 90s) who spent his entire last semester of law school working in Miami. He came back for finals, passedf all of his classes, and graduated.

[molson]

there is the legend of a guy who graduated a few years before me (early 90s) who spent his entire last semester of law school working in Miami. He came back for finals, passedf all of his classes, and graduated.

Ha, I head about that legend, or some variation of it - I think on one of those sleazy law school message boards (autoadmit - I think it was called something else when I was in school). It's true though, if you get A's 1L year, you should be able to get A's in your sleep 3L year - you're much better off working on your career at that point (or even on your drinking beer career).

[britrock88]

99-02.

And I didn't really do any prep. I didn't have time--I was doing a volunteer year in Alaska and pretty much went right from that to law school.

I actually think that 0L prep of that nature is probably not super helpful, honestly. So much depends on your exams. And your exams depend on your professors. And before you can meet your professors, there is only so much you can do to help yourself.

Maybe the best prep would be to get all of your life in order (i.e. get your housing, finances, and transportation settled; figure out your routines vis a vis the grocery, etc.) before school so that you can focus on school 100% when you start. You don't want to be distracting yourself by having to wait for the cable guy to show up when you could have been doing all of that the weeks before. At a minimum, you could be using that time to get to know your classmates.

Oh, and, in life, I find the best "networking" happens when I am just trying to be friends with people. Whenever I have tried to "network," it has gone nowhere. The connections that have actually helped me professionally are people with whom I became friends who then happened to later be in a position to help me. YMMV.

Trust everything AM tells you. He's a UNC law grad. ;)

- UNC 3L

[Noop]

Trust everything AM tells you. He's a UNC law grad. ;)

- UNC 3L

What did you do before law school any prep?

Question for you guys anyone do Law Review, Moot Court or graduated with latin honors?

[albionmoonlight]

Trust everything AM tells you. He's a UNC law grad. ;)

- UNC 3L

Cool. How are things over there? Who are the best professors? Bad profs? General mood vis a vis economic opportunity?

[lcjjdnh]

I wouldn't worry too much about preparing before law school. Getting to Maybe might be worth reading just to get a sense of what law school exams are like-they're much different than most people expect-but other than that, I don't think you'd really get much out of studying before school starts.

Likewise, I wouldn't bother with supplements too much. They can be helpful if there's a topic you really don't understand, but, for the most part, the information you need is in your book or the professor talked about in class. I found it much more helpful to work through any unclear material on my own instead of just going straight to a supplement.

In terms of exams, most of the advice throughout this thread seems right to me. Practice exam, as someone mentioned, are probably the most important thing to do. Learning the actual material isn't too difficult; sure, there are some tricky topics, but most of it is pretty straightforward. But for exams you need to do more than just regurgitate that information-you have to apply it to a new set of facts, which they don't necessarily show you how to do in class.

For jobs, 1L grades should likely be your top priority. How good your grades need to be depends on the school you attend. As will what you want to do after 1L summer. If you go to a top school and have good grades, your 1L summer job will be largely irrelevant for 2L summer (which is much more important for an offer after graduation). If that's not the case, hustling for a 1L job is probably a bit more important.

[lcjjdnh]

Oh, and as much as it's become a cliche, there is something to be said for the whole "thinking like a lawyer" concept. You need to grasp that goal of exams is usually to build good arguments for both sides of an issue. This requires thinking about the facts, the potential approaches the court could take, and analyzing the next set of questions for the potential routes the court could take.

People too often look for a "right" answer. But the point of most good exam questions is that they're filled with ambiguities. There is no right answer; the analysis is much more important than the conclusion.

[Noop]

Oh, and as much as it's become a cliche, there is something to be said for the whole "thinking like a lawyer" concept. You need to grasp that goal of exams is usually to build good arguments for both sides of an issue. This requires thinking about the facts, the potential approaches the court could take, and analyzing the next set of questions for the potential routes the court could take.

People too often look for a "right" answer. But the point of most good exam questions is that they're filled with ambiguities. There is no right answer; the analysis is much more important than the conclusion.

Good info. I have read "Getting to Maybe" and they pretty much talk about this in the book. One thing I don't get is how to go about writing it in essay form. I guess I need to go online and find some model answers to see how to put it together.

[britrock88]

What did you do before law school any prep?

Question for you guys anyone do Law Review, Moot Court or graduated with latin honors?

I tried to read Getting to Maybe (could've used the help). You've already done it, so I don't have to tell you that it's worthwhile. My advice would be to unwind so that you're ready to put in a solid effort getting the hang of the legal atmosphere your 1L year. If you're totally new to it (I wasn't), go hang out in a county courthouse for a day; if you're near a larger city or state capital, see if there is a federal district courthouse to sit in on, or a state/federal appellate court (if any hear arguments over the summer). That exposure makes lots of otherwise oblique concepts and terminology more relatable.

I'm on Moot Court... technically. I would have tried out for a journal except for a death in the family during the competition dates, and I didn't have the grades to skip the writing competition. So I went out for Moot Court, and ended up as the guy who writes the constitutional law problem for the competition we host. (Albion, if you knew someone who did that while you were at UNC, you feel my pain.) So I'm getting an experience somewhere between MC and LR, but only the 1 MC credit (as opposed to 2-5 for senior staffing or editing a journal). Journals are more prestigious, but if you want to litigate, MC or Trial Team is your most practical way to go.

To get around to AM's concern about attitudes vis a vis the economy in a roundabout way... I'm glad you're in a good situation -- not going into much debt at a T50 school. I don't know that I'd recommend law school in other circumstances. Then again, I have never been the type that was on fire for the law; I look at law school more practically as an advanced degree that is very broad in application.

For students on an individual basis, though, the top of our class still lands BigLaw jobs or prestigious public interest work easily. From there down, it's a matter of selectivity on the students' parts on what kind of gigs they land. I feel fortunate in having two fairly good-sounding summer experiences -- at a Court of Appeals and at a US Attorney's Office -- but that comes with the cost of not earning much of anything for my time or earning a job offer for post-graduation. I don't know whether to try to clerk (young, debt not an issue, like not having 60-80 hour weeks), or to get a full-time gig so I don't have to go through the search process 4 times in 4 years.

If I had 1L year to do again, I would pick up one commercial outline (by a professor of yours, if you're lucky), in any class, just to get a feel for what you're actually meant to get out of reading the cases and notes and problems. Once you feel comfortable with what I call the distillation process -- reading a case, whittling the case down to its essential rules, then imagining how those rules would apply in different fact situations -- you're golden.

[stevew]

Are tests handwritten or do you type answers in a computer? You're going to laugh but I basically have no handwriting skills anymore. My hand gets all cramped and stuff pretty quickly. It's a skill you lose over time I guess. I was out of school for like 16 years.

[lcjjdnh]

Computer.

[Noop]

Well today I received some interesting news. I was given a scholarship by a school I had eliminated due to distance and prestige. However this recent scholarship definitely has me rethinking things a bit. I wonder how much of a dick would I be to ask the school I am attending to match this?

Some details... it is a full scholly with the only stipulation being stay at least at the median. The current one I have requires I stay in the top 30% while that is not impossible I know this school has a lot of brilliant people. Maybe I can negoiate with my school to lower the requirement and add some money.

So would they look at me like a smuck for asking again?

[molson]

Well today I received some interesting news. I was given a scholarship by a school I had eliminated due to distance and prestige. However this recent scholarship definitely has me rethinking things a bit. I wonder how much of a dick would I be to ask the school I am attending to match this?

Some details... it is a full scholly with the only stipulation being stay at least at the median. The current one I have requires I stay in the top 30% while that is not impossible I know this school has a lot of brilliant people. Maybe I can negoiate with my school to lower the requirement and add some money.

So would they look at me like a smuck for asking again?

The conditional merit scholarships are under a lot of heat lately, just an FYI:

Are Law Schools Deceiving Students by Offering Merit Scholarships? - Law Blog - WSJ (http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2011/05/02/are-law-school-deceiving-students-by-offering-merit-scholarships/)

It sounds as if the scholarships you've been offered are conditioned on rank rather than grade, which I guess is better, but don't underestimate a law school's willingness to deceive you. If it's a true full scholarship if you stay in the top 50%, that's pretty tempting, as long as you're not going to far down the rankings to get it.

I wouldn't feel bad at all about asking a law school to improve their offer.

Edit: Those kinds of scholarships can definitely create great opportunities, I'm just saying to remember to think of your law school as a used car salesman. The hammer is going to fall on this stuff sooner or later but as long as you're aware of it and vigilant of it, it doesn't have to effect you.

[britrock88]

If the full ride is still T50, take it. Otherwise, negotiate with your original choice.

[JediKooter]

Sounds like your first test in becoming a lawyer...negotiate. :)

[stevew]

Is there a substantial advantage to being familiar with Latin? I was just going to take Spanish because I am familiar, but if there's an edge to being semi proficient with Latin I will probably look to take that instead.

[lcjjdnh]

I don't think so. Even if latin comes into play (and I can't really think of many, if any situations, where it has), I'd doubt knowing it would have any real correlation to making you successful. Others may disagree, but learning the law isn't the hard part of law school; it's learning how to spot issues in fact patterns and using the tools you've learned to analyze them.

[albionmoonlight]

I don't think so. Even if latin comes into play (and I can't really think of many, if any situations, where it has), I'd doubt knowing it would have any real correlation to making you successful. Others may disagree, but learning the law isn't the hard part of law school; it's learning how to spot issues in fact patterns and using the tools you've learned to analyze them.

I agree. Any Latin phrase that you encounter can be googled and translated in about 3 seconds. What matters is what the actual legal doctrine is, not what the terms mean in Latin.

[Ksyrup]

...although if you're unlucky, you'll run into an asshole professor who will ask that kind of question to embarrass you.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Is there a substantial advantage to being familiar with Latin? I was just going to take Spanish because I am familiar, but if there's an edge to being semi proficient with Latin I will probably look to take that instead.

I don't think so for the reasons mentioned above. I took two years of Latin in college. I needed to take a language and chose it for some reason. I did great in Latin at college, though, I admit, but the time I went to law school I had forgotten almost all of it except for like 2 sentences:

"Manus lavat manum."

"Gladiator capit consileum en harena."

Oh, and "Caesar dixit". He dixited lots of things.

[britrock88]

"Caesar dixit". He dixited lots of things.

I lawled.

[molson]

I enjoyed Latin in high school but it has absolutely nothing to do with law school or being a lawyer. In criminal work, there's a ton of latin phrases that come up, but I don't even know the literal english translations of most of them, I just know their legal meaning - they're basically just pseudo-English legal terms you have to learn. Like "sua sponte". I don't know what the literal translation of that is (until I looked it up just now), I just know it means that a court did something on its own, without being prompted by a motion from either party.

[Ksyrup]

Go shove your quid pro quo where the sua sponte don't shine!

[Noop]

Update.

No.

[Noop]

I want to add that I think I have officially gone over board with regard to my prep for Law School. I have read 5 books about law schools/exams and I have done this essay writing program. In addition to that I have began to read over supplements that teach Black Letter Law.

I want to stop and just enjoy the summer but my fear of not doing well is compelling me to work. I visit another board dedicated to law students and some of my future classmates have been prepping since April. Any of you guys have any tips for improving my writing?

[albionmoonlight]

I want to add that I think I have officially gone over board with regard to my prep for Law School. I have read 5 books about law schools/exams and I have done this essay writing program. In addition to that I have began to read over supplements that teach Black Letter Law.

I want to stop and just enjoy the summer but my fear of not doing well is compelling me to work. I visit another board dedicated to law students and some of my future classmates have been prepping since April. Any of you guys have any tips for improving my writing?

Burnout can be a concern. And a message board like that gives you a very skewed sample size. The students who want to show off how hard they are working are the ones who will post that they have been prepping since April. Don't use them as a guide.

I'm not saying be completely lazy. But it is a marathon and not a sprint. And you don't want to run for 50 miles before the marathon begins. This is one of your last free summers. Don't spend it all in the library.

[Glengoyne]

Not a Lawyer, but I've read some of the above and have a question.

If reading cases and decisions is a learned art. It also sounds like once that art is learned, reading cases will take a fraction of the time. So is there a good way to get a head start on learning this vital skill?

If there is, that seems like a good way to prepare. It will end up giving you the gift of time.

[corbes]

A lawyer here. Let me vote on the side of "relax." I see almost no upside in spending your entire summer memorizing things. That sounds like an exercise in futility. I would rather see you take a trip to another country or go an extended hike or something like that. It is most important that you enter the fall fresh.

[Noop]

I appreciate this guys. I have decided against learning black letter law and just focus on learning how to write exams.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Not a Lawyer, but I've read some of the above and have a question.

If reading cases and decisions is a learned art. It also sounds like once that art is learned, reading cases will take a fraction of the time. So is there a good way to get a head start on learning this vital skill?

If there is, that seems like a good way to prepare. It will end up giving you the gift of time.

That's a good question. I am not sure if there is a good way to master it without going to law school. I never really tried.

A lawyer here. Let me vote on the side of "relax." I see almost no upside in spending your entire summer memorizing things. That sounds like an exercise in futility. I would rather see you take a trip to another country or go an extended hike or something like that. It is most important that you enter the fall fresh.

I agree. I didn't do any kind of prep work. I spent the summer before law school relaxing and enjoying myself. I finished up the temp job I was working at, watched the Wings win the Stanley Cup and went on a 3 week European vacation. By the time law school rolled around, I was pretty refreshed.

[Ksyrup]

Maybe if you're lucky, in 18 years you can get this email from Martindale Hubbell:

Happy Anniversary,

In 1996, you swore an oath and were admitted to the Bar. Now you can commemorate the anniversary of this proud occasion with your specially designed handcrafted wall plaque. It is ready, just click to your custom web page to see it. You can edit your plaque, try out different wood colors and place your order.

Yeesh...

[stevew]

Is it limited edition and numbered with a certificate of authenticity?

[Ksyrup]

I damn sure hope so.

[Honolulu_Blue]

A couple of years ago, the Michigan Bar Association was offering to sell Michigan attorneys personalized badges to reflect an attorney's position as an "Officer of the Court." It looked like a real police badge with the attorney's name and number on it and everything.

[albionmoonlight]

Noop:

You mentioned in another thread about partaking in certain substances--a common enough pursuit. Someone in the thread mentioned that, with your chosen career path, you may not want to be advertising that.

I agree. However, there is another piece of advice lurking under the surface here. From this point on, you will be applying for things and/or getting background checks (become a member of the bar, or getting a government job are two obvious examples). I think that it is MUCH BETTER to be honest on those applications and just up front about what you have done. You always have the opportunity to explain yourself later.

Basically, the only friend I had who had trouble with the ethical portion of getting admitted to the bar didn't run into those problems because of what he had done. It was because they caught him lying about what he had done. They take that MUCH MORE SERIOUSLY than simple bad behavior.

To put it in more concrete terms. If you say that you've smoked pot in the past, then you are one of, like, a billion college kids who did that. If, however, you lie on the application when they ask that question, and they find out, then you are suddenly a guy willing to lie to the bar, and what else are you lying about . . . .

I have no idea what skeletons, if any, lie in your past. I post this ONLY because of the comment you made in the thread. You are clearly a smart and hard working guy. That's what will get you through and let you succeed--just don't make it harder on yourself by misrepresenting the past.

[Ksyrup]

I agree. They made that abundantly clear to us our first week of law school - err on the side of full disclosure. In doing so, you will unfortunately end up getting frustrated with the process of having to answer questions about things over and over that they probably would never have found out about in the first place, but once you answer them to their satisfaction, you are in the clear.

Case in point: I got pulled over once and didn't get a ticket, but a warning. I disclosed it anyway. I had to send them a certified copy of my driving record and an explanation of what happened. The response: Please provide details of the ticket you received. I had to explain the whole thing again - I didn't get a ticket, it was just a warning, I only disclosed it in an abundance of caution, etc. They finally let it go.

Sometimes I think the bar examiners fuck with people to test their temperment. I spent 6 months corresponding with the Bar about my "failure to provide all information" about my address in college when I gave them my dorm address, but they found a PO Box active at the same time. It was my mail box while living at the dorm. Took me 6 months to get them off that one. I was so tempted to give them a smart-ass response about how their question asked for an address where I lived, not a PO Box, but I didn't go there.

One of my my roommates witnessed a car wreck when he was 10 that killed someone, and he went to counseling for a year or so to help him through it. The facility he went to for counseling, the physical address/location, had been torn down years earlier. Took him 2 years to get the bar examiners to accept that explanation, and you wouldn't believe what he had to go through to document that the location didn't exist anymore. Unfortunately, this was before Google Maps. :p

Almost everyone has a story like that. We came to the conclusion that they were either testing us to see how we'd react when unnecessarily pissed off, or they were incompetent. It was probably the latter, but felt like the former.

[Noop]

I definitely hear where you guys are coming from. I have however heard that some firms don't even drug test. Not that I plan to work for such companies...

Question what kind of lawyer are you guys? Anyone ever work for so called BIGLAW?

[Ksyrup]

Totally different issue. It's not an employment issue, it's a bar admission issue. They will investigate your background and look for anything that impacts your character and certainly root out any inconsistencies in what you attest to in your application and what they find. Doesn't matter whether a prospective employer drug tests. You need the bar admission to get or keep that job.

I specialize in insurance regulatory law. Started at the Florida Department of Insurance then went into private practice for a couple of firms that were about 50-75ish attorneys based solely in Florida. Currently working for a firm in Kentucky that has about 450 attorneys in 5 states.

[albionmoonlight]

I definitely hear where you guys are coming from. I have however heard that some firms don't even drug test. Not that I plan to work for such companies...

Question what kind of lawyer are you guys? Anyone ever work for so called BIGLAW?

I spent a year at a top-five firm in DC. That was what people call BIGLAW. It was fun enough (and the pay was stupidly amazing for a guy from a working class background like me). But I also realized that firm life was not for me.

Now, I am a public defender. Much more my speed. I figure all those years as a New Orleans Saints fan help put me in the mindset of defending those with no chance :-)

[Noop]

Will be headed to school on Saturday. I have debated asking Ben to delete this account so I may rejoin as someone who isn't associated with some of my stupidity (noopidity) over the years. I don't anticipate much free time as my most of my online time is spent on Florida State and law related stuff. It's been fun and I am kind of looking forward to living somewhere else other then Florida for a couple years.

:)

Noop

[GrantDawg]

Will be headed to school on Saturday. I have debated asking Ben to delete this account so I may rejoin as someone who isn't associated with some of my stupidity (noopidity) over the years. I don't anticipate much free time as my most of my online time is spent on Florida State and law related stuff. It's been fun and I am kind of looking forward to living somewhere else other then Florida for a couple years.

:)

Noop


Good luck, Noop! Wish you the best. I wouldn't worry about your past "noopidity." Sort of like family, I think most of us forgive and forget. I am proud of you (or for you to be more correct). You set the bar to get into law school a long time ago, and it has been fun watching you work toward it and then achieving it. I'd hate to lose the rest of the story if you changed names or something. Instead of worrying about past silliness, think of the fact you have a group of cheerleaders here on your side.

Go Noop!

[JediKooter]

One word: Internet Time Machine...

Good luck Noop!

[molson]

Good luck. I wouldn't worry about anyone performing a full investigation of your online past....unless you run for president.

[Ksyrup]

Good luck! And yes, living outside of Florida is a perk of your school choice.

[lcjjdnh]

Good luck. Hope the advice in the thread helps.

[Noop]

Well I survived and I am sure I am still the same guy I was before.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Well I survived and I am sure I am still the same guy I was before.

Sweet!

Enjoy the holiday break. I'm sure you deserve it.

[RedKingGold]

Well I survived and I am sure I am still the same guy I was before.

You won't become more cynical and jaded until after you graduate law school. :D

[Noop]

Well I am cynical and jaded about living on the east coast. LOL.

Got one grade back for legal writing and lets say I am super happy about it.

[Noop]

Anyone have any advice for working during the summer? I might have a shot at a paid 1L Summer Associate, but I think it is likely I won't get the position (we have mutant gunners). I have thought about working with a judge or doing something in Miami for the summer.

Any ideas?

[Honolulu_Blue]

Anyone have any advice for working during the summer? I might have a shot at a paid 1L Summer Associate, but I think it is likely I won't get the position (we have mutant gunners). I have thought about working with a judge or doing something in Miami for the summer.

Any ideas?

Working for a judge isn't a bad gig. Typically it's looked on pretty favorably by firms.

You can also apply for unpaid internships at various legal clinics or legal aid type places. Some law schools will actually pay you a stipend for the summer if you take a unpaid "public interest" job for a summer.

For example, I worked as a law clerk for the Washington D.C. public defender during my first summer.

[Ksyrup]

doing something in Miami for the summer.

Any ideas?

Sure!

Miami prison “overrun” by strippers pretending to be legal assistants | The Sideshow - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/miami-prison-overrun-strippers-pretending-legal-assistants-185216817.html)

:D

[Ksyrup]

If you have some idea what you want to do, I'd try to find something that will give you experience in that area of law. Otherwise, I don't think you can go wrong with any type of job. I had no clue what I wanted to do, a friend got me a job with the insurance department, and now I'm practicing insurance regulatory law.

[Noop]

I am interested in criminal law (my goal is to eventually open my own litigation firm) and the public defenders doesn't sound like a bad idea. If I don't get this summer associate job I will probably look to work for the public defenders and the states attorney office (split summer) to get a feel of litigation.

[lcjjdnh]

I am interested in criminal law (my goal is to eventually open my own litigation firm) and the public defenders doesn't sound like a bad idea. If I don't get this summer associate job I will probably look to work for the public defenders and the states attorney office (split summer) to get a feel of litigation.

Congrats on finishing the first semester.

I'd say summer work depends primarily on what you want to do out of school. If you plan to work at a big firm immediately--and this a reasonable goal, which is tough to say even at the top schools these days--I wouldn't worry too much about what you're doing as long as it's something in the legal field. Make money if you can--In addition to an SA position, I know my school offered paid RA positions with professors during the summer. If not, just picked something you think you'll enjoy. Big firms really don't care what you did as long as it was legal related. On the other hand, if you don't think you're going to get a firm job (or don't want one), you're probably better off hustling to get a position that will help you market yourself in the future.

One cautionary note re: your suggested split summer: Although plenty of people do defense work after working for the prosecutors office, I have heard that some of the people that hiring on both sides are "true believers" and will doubt your dedication if you don't know which side you want to work for. I think that's sort of bunk--everyone in the criminal justice system should have an interest in making sure it works effectively--but that's the way it is, unfortunately.

[Noop]

Rock solid advice. I want to work with a firm (160k a year ain't bad) after school, but I have a huge scholarship and will graduate with no debt (maybe 20k). I want to get a feel for litigation before I commit to it though so there is the rub.

[lcjjdnh]

Rock solid advice. I want to work with a firm (160k a year ain't bad) after school, but I have a huge scholarship and will graduate with no debt (maybe 20k). I want to get a feel for litigation before I commit to it though so there is the rub.

Your chances at BigLaw--i.e. the firms that pay 160K--will depend heavily on where you go to school and how your first year grades go. My sense is that outside of the top 15 or so schools, you really need to be at the top of the class to have a shot (and probably at the very top if you're not looking at a city with a big legal market).

That said, no debt is an enviable position to be in. Many people in BigLaw go into it to pay off debt, not because it's a particular fun job to do. Given your financial situation, you should really consider if it's what you want to do before committing to it. You say you want to do litigation--there are plenty of smaller firms that do that sort of work too. You might make less, but you might like the hours, clients, and substantive work more.

On the other hand, if you pass up on a BigLaw job after graduating, it will probably be difficult to get one in the future. So you may be better off trying it out first and then moving elsewhere if it's not your thing.

[Drake]

Congrats, Noop. Glad to hear you're doing well.

[Noop]

Your chances at BigLaw--i.e. the firms that pay 160K--will depend heavily on where you go to school and how your first year grades go. My sense is that outside of the top 15 or so schools, you really need to be at the top of the class to have a shot (and probably at the very top if you're not looking at a city with a big legal market).

That said, no debt is an enviable position to be in. Many people in BigLaw go into it to pay off debt, not because it's a particular fun job to do. Given your financial situation, you should really consider if it's what you want to do before committing to it. You say you want to do litigation--there are plenty of smaller firms that do that sort of work too. You might make less, but you might like the hours, clients, and substantive work more.

On the other hand, if you pass up on a BigLaw job after graduating, it will probably be difficult to get one in the future. So you may be better off trying it out first and then moving elsewhere if it's not your thing.

I am at a school that places well in DC and New York. For the sake of keeping where I attend school private I won't say which but it is a considered a top school (although no Harvard or Yale). As for BigLaw I am well aware that if you don't do it coming out of school the chances of doing it later are slim.

I made mention about my debt to say that BigLaw, while an interesting opportunity, isn't what I am gunning for. I have a ton of classmates who are on the hook for 200k who need BigLaw to pay off their massive loans. I would be in that position should I decide to transfer up (Yale or Harvard) but that would be me wanting to chase prestige and nothing else.

Congrats, Noop. Glad to hear you're doing well.

Much appreciated.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Noop, I just want to say that I'm really impressed with your dedication to this, and I wish you the best going forward. You seem to be approaching this with a great attitude, and I want you to know that you have my encouragement, for whatever that's worth.

tl;dr version: i like you noop i respect what you done

[sterlingice]

Sure!

Miami prison “overrun” by strippers pretending to be legal assistants | The Sideshow - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/miami-prison-overrun-strippers-pretending-legal-assistants-185216817.html)

:D

:D

SI

[sterlingice]

Congrats- kindof bad to think it, but you aren't the first person I would think of going into law. But it sounds like it fits you perfectly. Congrats on the success!

SI

[Noop]

Congrats- kindof bad to think it, but you aren't the first person I would think of going into law. But it sounds like it fits you perfectly. Congrats on the success!

SI


No problem. This is the reason why I was considering having Ben delete this account so I can start a new one. It's hard to remove old opinions and stigmas that were attained when I was young (and high). I am still the same person, however I would probably exercise more judgment when dealing with people on this site.

[Noop]

Officially done with my 1L year of school. It has been incredibly trying this last few months. Just giving you guys an update.

[Chief Rum]

Officially done with my 1L year of school. It has been incredibly trying this last few months. Just giving you guys an update.

Way to go, Noop!

[DaddyTorgo]

WTG Noop!

[Buccaneer]

Nice work, congratulations! Keep your head still screwed on straight.

[lcjjdnh]

Congrats! Unfortunately, 2L year will be even busier, although hopefully a bit less stressful.

[sterlingice]

Congrats :D

SI

[Noop]

Congrats! Unfortunately, 2L year will be even busier, although hopefully a bit less stressful.

Hopefully I graded on to Law Review if not then I hope my write on submission was decent given what happened around that time. If I am not on Law Review I imagine outside of looking for jobs 2L fall will be much easier and way less stressful.

[GrantDawg]

Congrats, Noop. Good to see you. Been in my thoughts and prayers.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Congrats on finishing your first year. The first year of law school is very difficult and intense. I found that it really gets easier after that. What used to take you an hour to do will now take you around 15 minutes or so.

Good luck the rest of the way.

[Noop]

Congrats, Noop. Good to see you. Been in my thoughts and prayers.

Thanks. I think I know what you're alluding too and that has made this semester all the more difficult.

[stevew]

I'm glad you were able to stay focused. Best of luck.

[Noop]

I passed the Florida bar. What a ride law school has been.

[ISiddiqui]

Good job!

[Lathum]

I passed the Florida bar. What a ride law school has been.

Nice!

[JPhillips]

Congrats!

[DaddyTorgo]

I passed the Florida bar. What a ride law school has been.

Congrats Noop!!!! :party:

[Honolulu_Blue]

Congrats, counselor!

[DaddyTorgo]

You should probably get your username changed by Ben to Noop, J.D.

[Noop]

It would be Noop, Esq. ;)

However I am not that pretentious....

Feels good man.

[Buccaneer]

Congratulations sir, I'm proud of you for your accomplishments.

[DaddyTorgo]

what's the difference between the two? J.D. just for someone that has a degree but hasn't passed the bar and Esq. once you pass the bar?

[DaddyTorgo]

Who would have thought...all those years ago...our little Noop...is all grown up!

[Noop]

Thank you guys. Still can't believe it but I am lucky and blessed.

[PilotMan]

Congrats! What an accomplishment!

[albionmoonlight]

Awesome!

[cuervo72]

Congrats Noop - you've come a long way in a dozen years.

[terpkristin]

Congratulations, Noop!!!

/tk

[corbes]

Congratulations counselor. I'll buy you a drink someday.

[Klinglerware]

Congratulations!

[cartman]

Another congrats to add to the list! But whatever you do, don't turn into this guy:

http://www.cinemadoor.com/images/carlito.jpg

:D

[Noop]

Lol thank you all.

I am overjoyed to have passed.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I passed the Florida bar. What a ride law school has been.

As the parent of an aspiring future attorney, I hope you'll accept my congratulations.

[Subby]

I passed the Florida bar. What a ride law school has been.
Really impressive accomplishment. Congratulations!

[Noop]

As the parent of an aspiring future attorney, I hope you'll accept my congratulations.

If I may offer tips.

Have him study the LSAT as early as possible. Getting a high LSAT score will get him into a top law school or a top regional school with a huge scholarship. I would suggest that he attend a T14 school (I attended one) to ensure that he will have a job when he is done with school.

The best advice I got about law school was from an attorney who told me to be nice to everyone even when they do not deserve it. People skills go a long way in law school and I can attest that I got my job because of a fellow student who put in a good word for me.

If anything else let me know. I did really well in law school and depending on his age I can offer some tips on doing well.

[GrantDawg]

Where is the like button on here? :) Congrats!

[molson]

Nice job Noop. I'm impressed when anyone kicks law school's ass. That's a big accomplishment. There's so much bad press about the legal field these days, but it's still a great career (at least once you can actually get yourself into it). I didn't end up very near the T14 myself, more like top 60 (and sliding in the 10 years since I enrolled - and I had more debt than you), but I did manage to put together a career with good grades and then hustle and networking. I can't imagine what the hell else I'd do.

[Noop]

Nice job Noop. I'm impressed when anyone kicks law school's ass. That's a big accomplishment. There's so much bad press about the legal field these days, but it's still a great career (at least once you can actually get yourself into it). I didn't end up very near the T14 myself, more like top 60 (and sliding in the 10 years since I enrolled), but I did manage to put together a career with good grades and then hustle and networking. I can't imagine what the hell else I'd do.

I agree it is a great field. I believe the problem with the profession comes from the lawyers (i.e. young lawyers) who believe 160k is their right. For example, when I told my classmates I was forgoing Big Law they looked at me like I was crazy.

[britrock88]

The old money/happiness trade-off. Hope practice treats you well.

[Butter]

Congrats, Noop! Great job!