Is Terrell Owens comparible to ....

[DougW]

Dan Marino ??
** 2nd most career passing yards, 2nd most career passing TD

Walter Payton ??
** 2nd most career rushing yards, 2nd most career rushing attempts, 4th most career rushing TDs

****
Terrell ..
** 2nd most career receiving yards, 2nd most career receiving TDs, 5th most career receptions.

Just wondering how people perceive Terrell. If it weren't for Jerry Rice (who, lets be real - THAT GUY wasn't even human); a statistical argument could be put up that he is the best WR ever.

I know, I've never thought of him in a Payton, Marino way - Does he deserve to be in that mold ?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Hmm ... in terms of excellence/success at his position? I'd say yeah.

In terms of impact on his team/the game/etc? Nah, not seeing it.

[EagleFan]

Marino and Payton weren't a cancer to their teams so not anywhere close.

[MrBug708]

Marino and Payton weren't a cancer to their teams so not anywhere close.

Pretty sure that wasn't his point

[Rizon]

How does he rate in ball-dropping? I remember seeing him regularly be in the leaders each year in this category. Yeah, he caught a lot of balls ... because he was thrown a lot of balls.

[JediKooter]

Purely stats wise, yup.

But as Jon and EF said, that's where the comparison ends. I wonder how many Super Bowls his teams may have went to if he wasn't such a pain in the ass.

EDIT: I'm assuming we are talking about his potential Hall of Fame resume? We know off the field antics don't seem to matter (LT), but, will his on the field and in the locker room personality affect his chances of getting into the HOF?

[EagleFan]

Pretty sure that wasn't his point

Sure it was. The question is does he deserve to be looked at in the same way as them. You can;t overlook the fact that all he does is blow up a team that he is on so it's a quick and easy NO.

[DougW]

The point was just to grab some opinions of TO. His personality allows me to easily forget how much success he has achieved. In all honesty, when I think of the best receivers of all time off the top of my head - his name wouldn't be where his stats say it should be on the list. Was just curious how others rated him :)

Is he Ty Cobb ?? Talented, highly successful, a giant DBag ? Although, Ty gets his props - and it seems Terrell gets no love.

How does he rate in ball-dropping? I remember seeing him regularly be in the leaders each year in this category. Yeah, he caught a lot of balls ... because he was thrown a lot of balls.

Interesting question IMO, and was one of the first things I thought of too when I posed the question. Sadly the NFL doesn't track drops. But, also - would it really matter ? I'm sure the list would include all the all-time greats. Anyone with a lot of targets would probably have a lot of drops.

More interesting though ... what would that mean ? That he was targeted often ? Why ? Because he runs great routes and is open ? .. Because he has the confidence of his QBs (even if they don't like him) ? Because he's the best option to catch the ball, if everyone is covered ?

An interesting character/career.

[Matthean]

EDIT: I'm assuming we are talking about his potential Hall of Fame resume? We know off the field antics don't seem to matter (LT), but, will his on the field and in the locker room personality affect his chances of getting into the HOF?

I think he's going to be waiting a while. One, look up the top stat guys for receiving and not as many are in like you think they would be. Chris Carter not being in to me is kind of head scratching and he was no where need the cancer Owens was. Ricky Waters is another case of a person putting up HoF numbers, but not being in due to their attitude. LT's antics to me happened well after he was in the Hall.

[JediKooter]

I think he's going to be waiting a while. One, look up the top stat guys for receiving and not as many are in like you think they would be. Chris Carter not being in to me is kind of head scratching and he was no where need the cancer Owens was. Ricky Waters is another case of a person putting up HoF numbers, but not being in due to their attitude. LT's antics to me happened well after he was in the Hall.

That's exactly what I'm thinking. If Chris Carter has been waiting this long, I wouldn't be surprised at all for TO having to wait a long, long time. As far as stats go for active players, is anyone close to TO? Moss, Harrison, Wayne?

Maybe my memory isn't quite right, but, I do seem to remember LT having some off the field issues while still with the Giants. I could be completely wrong though.

[Kodos]

Hell, Cris Carter is still waiting for people to spell his name correctly.

[Autumn]

Interesting question IMO, and was one of the first things I thought of too when I posed the question. Sadly the NFL doesn't track drops. But, also - would it really matter ? I'm sure the list would include all the all-time greats. Anyone with a lot of targets would probably have a lot of drops.

More interesting though ... what would that mean ? That he was targeted often ? Why ? Because he runs great routes and is open ? .. Because he has the confidence of his QBs (even if they don't like him) ? Because he's the best option to catch the ball, if everyone is covered ?

An interesting character/career.

I believe Football Outsiders has a lot of info on drops, catch rate, etc. I can't find a specific article right now ranking Owens, but I'm sure there's info in there on the subject. I think cumulative stat totals don't tell us much.

[kcchief19]

How does he rate in ball-dropping? I remember seeing him regularly be in the leaders each year in this category. Yeah, he caught a lot of balls ... because he was thrown a lot of balls.
Otherwise know as the Skip Bayless Argument.

Only four guys have held the career record for most major league strikeouts since 1928: Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, Willie Stargell and Reggie Jackson.

And yes, Terrell Owens is Reggie Jackson in this scenario.

[MrBug708]

Sure it was. The question is does he deserve to be looked at in the same way as them. You can;t overlook the fact that all he does is blow up a team that he is on so it's a quick and easy NO.

No, his point was that he was a great WR who has not (and likely will never) have won it all. Like Karl Malone of football.

[MrBug708]

I'd rather see Tim Brown get in before Carter. Tim Brown's list of QB's is a whose who of the bad Raider QB's until Rich Gannon for a few years near the end of his career. He never had a HOF guy back there

[Radii]

No, his point was that he was a great WR who has not (and likely will never) have won it all. Like Karl Malone of football.

The original poster specifically asked how people perceive TO, especially in light of who his statistical comparisons were at the other skill positions. He didn't even mention winning championships, and Payton has a ring... EF's response seems spot on to me.

The fact that TO was such a massive cancer and such a horrible teammate absolutely is a massive knock against him in my eyes.

[hoopsguy]

Just against his contemporaries, I think Moss is held in higher regard by most fans. Was there ever a point that you thought TO was the best receiver in football? I've considered him Top 5 for a long stretch of it, but I don't think there was ever a point where I thought Owens was hands-down the best at his position.

80s/90s QBs, maybe Marino fits that same mold given some of the people playing at the same time. I'll still never understand rating Elway as a better QB than Marino, but that probably is in part because Marino is my favorite football player ever.

Payton - would have to ask someone who saw more of his career. Even from Chicago, by the time I really appreciated football Walter's numbers were starting to drift back to the pack. But I'm guessing there was a post-OJ period where Payton was clearly the best RB in the game.

I think Emmitt Smith might be a better comparison to Owens. Huge numbers, but people really felt like Sanders was a better talent/RB and slide Smith down their personal ranks accordingly.

Would be curious where people have Owens on their own "all time" lists of WRs. I'm thinking bottom of the top 10 is about as far as I would go with him. Instinctively, I think of Marvin Harrison ahead of Owens even though I know that is probably wrong at this point. Owens didn't have the luxury of Manning throughout his career, yet his numbers have started to pull away from Harrison's.

[QuikSand]

Spare me with Tim Brown. Is there any debate at all about who was the better receiver, at his established prime? Seriously, that's just laughable, Owens was by leaps and bounds the better on-field player. Career accumulated statistics are just a rotten way to argue greatness -- does anyone at the WR position actually add to his legacy by tacking on two more seasons of mediocre football to accumulate another 1,200 yards and move up the career rankings?

[Pumpy Tudors]

Terrell Owens is the best receiver ever. His numbers are great now, and just imagine how much better they'd be if his quarterbacks would stop hating on him and throw the football his way.

[Passacaglia]

Terrell Owens is the best receiver ever. His numbers are great now, and just imagine how much better they'd be if Jeff Garcia would stop loving on him and throw the football his way.

Fixed.

[Autumn]

I think the OP has the right idea - I don't think Owens is thought of in the way his numbers would suggest. He's overshadowed his own play with his personality, and so I think someone like Reggie Jackson is a good comparison. I don't follow baseball, but I know Jackson simply for his personality, not for anything much to do with his play.

[albionmoonlight]

This thread opened my eyes a bit. I agree that, in my head, he's not a top-ten all time WR even though his numbers would easily place him in the top five.

[Matthean]

I don't follow baseball, but I know Jackson simply for his personality, not for anything much to do with his play.

In short, he hit a lot of HRs during the playoffs for the biggest name team in baseball.

[Autumn]

It's too bad Football Outsiders doesn't seem to have anything on this, as they have the statistics that would help separate out things like QB value, how stats have changed over hte years, strength of competition.

But this site http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=1345 has some interesting work using the stats to try to compare WRs over different eras. Owens does rank well, but looking through this article and the next one, it appears to me he benefited a lot from increased passing in this era, while not dominating the way Moss has.

[AENeuman]

This is the major problem of judging an individual in a team sport. The greatest wide receiver of all time had 2 of the greatest qb's throwing to him. Emmit Smith had one of the best offenses and probably the best o line.

TO did great( more or less) with great qb's. And that aint nothing.

I think qb's can be bit of an exception, what they lose out on is the ring debate.

[Glengoyne]

Back to the original question.

I have a higher regard for TO's success on the field than Marino's.

As much as I like Payton, I'm hard pressed to to say he was a better running back than TO is/was a receiver.

[larrymcg421]

Back to the original question.

I have a higher regard for TO's success on the field than Marino's.


I'd definitely be interested in hearing the rationale behind this.

[Glengoyne]

I'd definitely be interested in hearing the rationale behind this.

Well I've never been a Marino fan. I guess that plays a big part in this.

As for TO's role in my assessment. He rivaled Moss in his dominance.

He was a tremendous force on the field. Look at what he did for the Eagles. With him, they are Donovan Mcnabb sacking it up in the fourth quarter away from a Super Bowl win. Without him, also rans.

He was a great receiver in his prime. Yes he was a cancer, but I'd argue that the only guy with better skills than him as a contemporary was also a bigger cancer.

[Kodos]

But the Eagles made their playoff run to the Super Bowl without Owens, no? He only came back for the Super Bowl.

[Suicane75]

Having watched him week in, week out while he was an Eagle, the only other receiver I can compare him to that I've seen regularly is Moss. I'm not judging his whole career because I didn't see him that much with the 49ers but he had an explosiveness and a play making ability that blew me away.

[Glengoyne]

But the Eagles made their playoff run to the Super Bowl without Owens, no? He only came back for the Super Bowl.

True...He only helped them to a fantastic start where he set the league on fire with his numbers, and helped Mcnabb finally live up to his reputation. Then Owens busted his ass to comeback from what should have been a season ending injury to lead the team in receiving in the Superbowl.


Having watched him week in, week out while he was an Eagle, the only other receiver I can compare him to that I've seen regularly is Moss. I'm not judging his whole career because I didn't see him that much with the 49ers but he had an explosiveness and a play making ability that blew me away.

What he said, but I did follow him as a niner.

I'm one of the few that have argued that he was better than Moss in some of the years they were both in the NFC.

[SteveMax58]

I don't think I would even compare Moss to TO (assuming their prime years). I think TO was hands down far superior to Moss in nearly every way possible.

Moss could embarrass mediocre CBs and put up huge numbers on a given day. But he also got shut down on a number of important games & against top defenses. Moss was very difficult to stop when he showed up...but was also much easier to rattle and take out of the game (again...talking REAL defenses here).

TO was so much more difficult to shut down due to his speed AND size. I never felt like TO was a non-factor in any game including top notch defenses. I'm sure there were exceptions here & there but TO was much more of a freak of nature athlete than Moss.

As for the OP question...I think he's in the conversation for 2nd. I'd have to give it some more thought, but offhand I don't think of TO as the 2nd best WR ever. I think of him as top 10...probably top 5...but not #2.

[Dr. Sak]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/224/353/terrell-owens-finds-home-in-buffalo_display_image.jpg?1273690500

[GrantDawg]

I don't think I would even compare Moss to TO (assuming their prime years). I think TO was hands down far superior to Moss in nearly every way possible.

Moss could embarrass mediocre CBs and put up huge numbers on a given day. But he also got shut down on a number of important games & against top defenses. Moss was very difficult to stop when he showed up...but was also much easier to rattle and take out of the game (again...talking REAL defenses here).

TO was so much more difficult to shut down due to his speed AND size. I never felt like TO was a non-factor in any game including top notch defenses. I'm sure there were exceptions here & there but TO was much more of a freak of nature athlete than Moss.

As for the OP question...I think he's in the conversation for 2nd. I'd have to give it some more thought, but offhand I don't think of TO as the 2nd best WR ever. I think of him as top 10...probably top 5...but not #2.


Who is your 2 then? Cris Carter?

[SteveMax58]

Who is your 2 then? Cris Carter?

I'm not entirely sure...Carter is top 5 imo so maybe.

It would have to be somebody that could have dominated even the best defenses of their day (to the extent rules made it possible). Hard to compare some of the older guys since the rules have changed so much over the years.

Honestly...as much as it pains me to say it (as a Giants fan)...but Michael Irvin was incredible as well & definitely showed up and faced some real competition over his career.

[SteveMax58]

dola,

Andre Reed comes to mind as a possible top 5 guy as well(at least top 15 and likely top 10).

[GrantDawg]

I'm not entirely sure...Carter is top 5 imo so maybe.

It would have to be somebody that could have dominated even the best defenses of their day (to the extent rules made it possible). Hard to compare some of the older guys since the rules have changed so much over the years.

Honestly...as much as it pains me to say it (as a Giants fan)...but Michael Irvin was incredible as well & definitely showed up and faced some real competition over his career.


Yeah, it is painful to me, too (because he is a pompous windbag) but Irvine might be two.

[kcchief19]

I may be over-defending TO, but I think he takes a lot of heat for things that weren't his fault. He was by all accounts a great teammate until his last season in San Francisco when he went all Keyshawn Johnson in his book. It was a messy exit, but he was a key player on a lot of great Niners teams that just missed out on the Super Bowl. If anything, TO played a great second banana to Rice even though he was on the rise and Rice on the way down.

The first year in Philadelphia, he was the straw that stirred the drink. He had a great performance in the Super Bowl on a freakin' broken leg. His exit in Philly was messy, but can you blame it all on him? TO wasn't the first and certainly wasn't the last guy to make a messy exit from Philly.

The meltdown in Dallas was bizarre, but again, he was only the latest dysfunctional on a team with a lot of dysfunctionals. I don't think there's also any doubt that TO had some personal issues, which came to light in Dallas. I don't give him a free pass for that, because ultimately it's up to him to be responsible for his actions.

Alluded in some other posts, but I think it's also interesting that many of the most prolific receivers were hot messes. Marvin Harrison had a bigger flameout and meltdown at the end of his career that TO ever thought about. Moss has been Owens-squared. Cris Carter and Michael Irvin were drug addicts.

[MikeVic]

Whatever happened to that Harrison murder thing, or whatever that was?

[Kodos]

Whatever happened to that Harrison murder thing, or whatever that was?

Here's what Wikipedia says:

Marvin Harrison - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Harrison)

Connections to shooting incidents


Harrison was sued by Dwight Dixon, a convicted drug dealer who was shot outside Chuckie's Garage, a North Philadelphia business owned by Harrison, on April 29, 2008.[2][3] The two men had two altercations earlier in the day when Harrison denied Dixon entry into a sports bar he owned and operated. Dixon alleged that Harrison was the gunman who shot at him. On January 6, 2009, Philadelphia District Attorney Lynne Abraham confirmed that it was Harrison's gun that fired shots at Dixon but they had been unable to determine who pulled the trigger.[4]

The Philadelphia District Attorney also stated that she was not going to pursue charges in this case due to conflicting witness statements. Dixon, who had initially given the police a false name and claimed he was robbed by two men when interviewed at the hospital,[5] was subsequently convicted of filing a false report for this incident on January 28, 2009. He was sentenced to 6 months probation. Dixon's attorney reportedly sought a new trial as the conviction violated Dixon's parole in an unrelated case.[6] Harrison is also being sued by Robert Nixon, a victim caught in the crossfire of the shooting who identified Harrison as the shooter in a statement to police.[7]

Dixon died on July 21, 2009 when he was shot several times while in his car outside a building two blocks away from Harrison's sports bar. On June 16, 2010, Shaun Assael of ESPN The Magazine reports that police confiscated a 9mm handgun from Harrison during a routine traffic stop on Wednesday in Philadelphia. Police will test the gun to see if it matches three spent 9mm shell casings that ended up inside the truck driven by the late Dwight Dixon at the scene of an April 2008 shooting. Dixon, who eventually was shot and killed after filing a civil lawsuit, claimed that the casings came from a second gun that Harrison fired. Authorities already have matched other bullets to a separate gun that Harrison owns -- and that he admitted was in his possession on the day the shooting occurred. Police found the gun during a search of Harrison's Escalade. The stop occurred as Harrison drove the vehicle the wrong way on a one-way street. Harrison claimed he did not have a gun. But police believed they saw Harrison put what appeared to be a weapon in the console between the two front seats. They concluded that they had probable cause to search the vehicle, and they found the gun. [8] The FBI has become involved in the investigation.

[MikeVic]

Here's what Wikipedia says:

Marvin Harrison - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Harrison)

Connections to shooting incidents


Harrison was sued by Dwight Dixon, a convicted drug dealer who was shot outside Chuckie's Garage, a North Philadelphia business owned by Harrison, on April 29, 2008.[2][3] The two men had two altercations earlier in the day when Harrison denied Dixon entry into a sports bar he owned and operated. Dixon alleged that Harrison was the gunman who shot at him. On January 6, 2009, Philadelphia District Attorney Lynne Abraham confirmed that it was Harrison's gun that fired shots at Dixon but they had been unable to determine who pulled the trigger.[4]

The Philadelphia District Attorney also stated that she was not going to pursue charges in this case due to conflicting witness statements. Dixon, who had initially given the police a false name and claimed he was robbed by two men when interviewed at the hospital,[5] was subsequently convicted of filing a false report for this incident on January 28, 2009. He was sentenced to 6 months probation. Dixon's attorney reportedly sought a new trial as the conviction violated Dixon's parole in an unrelated case.[6] Harrison is also being sued by Robert Nixon, a victim caught in the crossfire of the shooting who identified Harrison as the shooter in a statement to police.[7]

Dixon died on July 21, 2009 when he was shot several times while in his car outside a building two blocks away from Harrison's sports bar. On June 16, 2010, Shaun Assael of ESPN The Magazine reports that police confiscated a 9mm handgun from Harrison during a routine traffic stop on Wednesday in Philadelphia. Police will test the gun to see if it matches three spent 9mm shell casings that ended up inside the truck driven by the late Dwight Dixon at the scene of an April 2008 shooting. Dixon, who eventually was shot and killed after filing a civil lawsuit, claimed that the casings came from a second gun that Harrison fired. Authorities already have matched other bullets to a separate gun that Harrison owns -- and that he admitted was in his possession on the day the shooting occurred. Police found the gun during a search of Harrison's Escalade. The stop occurred as Harrison drove the vehicle the wrong way on a one-way street. Harrison claimed he did not have a gun. But police believed they saw Harrison put what appeared to be a weapon in the console between the two front seats. They concluded that they had probable cause to search the vehicle, and they found the gun. [8] The FBI has become involved in the investigation.

So... it's been almost two years since this has happened, with a lot of evidence against Harrison... and nothing has really come of it yet other than "the FBI has become involved?"

[Warhammer]

Wow, I am shocked at how little love Payton is getting in this thread. During the late 70s and early 80s, Payton WAS the Chicago Bears. Not only that, the guy did everything. He could make you miss, he could run over you, and he could leap over the pile. He could catch out of the backfield, he threw 9 TD passes over his career, and he was a feared blocker.

[Jughead Spock]

Ya know, I'm only 39, but this discussion is making me feel reallllllllly old.

[gstelmack]

Wow, I am shocked at how little love Payton is getting in this thread. During the late 70s and early 80s, Payton WAS the Chicago Bears. Not only that, the guy did everything. He could make you miss, he could run over you, and he could leap over the pile. He could catch out of the backfield, he threw 9 TD passes over his career, and he was a feared blocker.

Did he not also return kicks?

[Glengoyne]

...

Honestly...as much as it pains me to say it (as a Giants fan)...but Michael Irvin was incredible as well & definitely showed up and faced some real competition over his career.

I previously argued that TO was occasionally better than Moss when they were both in the NFC, but given what Moss did in New England before he had went on his own dysfunctional rhapsody, I think he is more deserving of a second best all time than TO, Irvin, Harrison or pretty much anyone else I can think of.


Wow, I am shocked at how little love Payton is getting in this thread. During the late 70s and early 80s, Payton WAS the Chicago Bears. Not only that, the guy did everything. He could make you miss, he could run over you, and he could leap over the pile. He could catch out of the backfield, he threw 9 TD passes over his career, and he was a feared blocker.

I like Payton. He was a very good running back. Hall of Famer. Same goes with Marino. I guess I may have misunderstood the OP's question, because I've never considered Marino or Payton as "second best" of all time. In order to do that I'd have to consider them as in the running for best of all time, and I just don't see it for either of them challenging for the mythical top spot.

[DougW]

I guess I may have misunderstood the OP's question, because I've never considered Marino or Payton as "second best" of all time.

Seems others may have as well. I guess I didn't really have a 'question'. I was just gathering opinions of TO. In particular, I wanted to point out where he was statistically compared to the players who are his statistical "equals" at other skilled spots.

I was a little shocked when I had recently heard where he ranked all time vs other wideouts, and thought : "No way do I view him the same as other players who rank similar at their positions .. I wonder if others feel the same or different".

It seems this board says his D-Baggery puts a pretty big stain on his 'legacy'. I'd venture to guess from other inquiries that football fans as a whole feel the same.

Is strange how that works. A player with the same list of accomplishments in some parallel universe, but took the time to shine his reputation probably would be regarded totally different. Maybe if TO had signed some more autographs for kids, or kept to his self a bit, and spit out a few more cliches .. he'd be this huge fan favorite that the majority of people "rooted for". Maybe a first ballot hall of famer, that just didn't ever get that ring.

[boberot]

I hold Walter Payton in much higher esteem than I hold T.O.

Is it "fair," or based on examining spreadsheets of their career? Absolutely not. I do have a sense of awe thinking about Sweetness that I don't have for TO.

By the same token, admitting a certain bias, I don't think I would automatically put Emmitt Smith in my list of top-5 greatest backs ever.

The OP asked about "perceptions" vs "output," and it is interesting the extent to which I and obviously others would elevate or demote guys based on things other than raw stats.

[jbergey22]

I don't think I would even compare Moss to TO (assuming their prime years). I think TO was hands down far superior to Moss in nearly every way possible.



This is the craziest thing I have read in this thread. Perhaps you worded this incorrectly and meant to have Moss and TO switched around.

[jbergey22]

As for the discussion I feel TO was a better WR than Cris Carter/Tim Brown however because of TO's issues I think Carter and Brown deserve to be in before TO.

[SteveMax58]

This is the craziest thing I have read in this thread. Perhaps you worded this incorrectly and meant to have Moss and TO switched around.

Not sure what is crazy about it. Moss could be shut down, very similar to the way the Patriots' defense in their prime years shut down the Colts by simply being physical with the WRs. But you couldnt be a mediocre CB to do this...hence why Moss was capable of exploding one day & not showing up the next.

That was not possible to do with TO. He was very capable of going deep (though not the jumpball skills Moss had), catching tough passes over the middle (Moss barely sniffed the middle), and simply showed up every day against the great and mediocre defenses...not just the mediocre defenses.

I'm not sure why Moss has this mystique about him. The Giants, Ravens, Eagles, and many other very good or better defenses in any given season put the guy in his place pretty regularly. Not the same with TO...not nearly as often.

[jbergey22]

Not sure what is crazy about it. Moss could be shut down, very similar to the way the Patriots' defense in their prime years shut down the Colts by simply being physical with the WRs. But you couldnt be a mediocre CB to do this...hence why Moss was capable of exploding one day & not showing up the next.

That was not possible to do with TO. He was very capable of going deep (though not the jumpball skills Moss had), catching tough passes over the middle (Moss barely sniffed the middle), and simply showed up every day against the great and mediocre defenses...not just the mediocre defenses.

I'm not sure why Moss has this mystique about him. The Giants, Ravens, Eagles, and many other very good or better defenses in any given season put the guy in his place pretty regularly. Not the same with TO...not nearly as often.

In the NFL anyone can be shutdown if they give something else up. In order to shutdown Moss you needed to play a 2 deep zone which left the defense in a situation of having 1 less defender trying to stop the run and cover the underneath pass. The Vikings didnt lead the NFL in rushing all them seasons because Robert Smith was so great I can tell you that. They didnt dare ever leave a corner 1 on 1 with Moss and if they did it likely resulted in a TD or PI. Dallas tried to single up Deion Sanders on Moss and lets just say it didnt go well for Dallas.

TO was great in a different way but teams didnt exactly change their entire defensive gameplan to stop him.

[Matthean]

Moss has the better physical talent. TO has the better work ethic. If Moss cared enough he could of challenged and maybe surpassed Rice as the best, but he doesn't and thus that leaves room for TO to be talked about.

[SteveMax58]

In the NFL anyone can be shutdown if they give something else up. In order to shutdown Moss you needed to play a 2 deep zone which left the defense in a situation of having 1 less defender trying to stop the run and cover the underneath pass. The Vikings didnt lead the NFL in rushing all them seasons because Robert Smith was so great I can tell you that. They didnt dare ever leave a corner 1 on 1 with Moss and if they did it likely resulted in a TD or PI. Dallas tried to single up Deion Sanders on Moss and lets just say it didnt go well for Dallas.

TO was great in a different way but teams didnt exactly change their entire defensive gameplan to stop him.

I'm talking about 1 on 1 shutdown (generally speaking, of course double coverage is rolled to the best WR in certain downs/situations/schemes in every defense). But I'll say it again, mediocre defenses (and specifically, mediocre CBs) certainly needed to double team him constantly (or pay the price) whereas a stronger CB could rattle him and take him out of the game (mentally & physically).

And Deion at the tail end of his career would naturally not be a good match for Moss in his prime. I'm not saying Moss wasn't great...he certainly was in his own right...just not the same all around force that TO was imo.

[SteveMax58]

Moss has the better physical talent. TO has the better work ethic. If Moss cared enough he could of challenged and maybe surpassed Rice as the best, but he doesn't and thus that leaves room for TO to be talked about.

See, I would say that is true for a Moss/Rice comparison. But a TO/Moss comparison?

TO was nearly as fast to tget the deep ball, twice as strong to avoid the jam, and was tough enough to work the middle of the field & take hits whereas Moss wouldn't dare sniff the middle with Ray Lewis or Ed Reed in there. That's where I see the biggest difference.

[CU Tiger]

This is the craziest thing I have read in this thread. Perhaps you worded this incorrectly and meant to have Moss and TO switched around.

^ This.

TO is more akin to Rafael Palmero to me....he finally played long enough to amass some impressive numbers.

He never struck fear in opposing DC like Moss, Rice, Irvin, etc. did.

If it wasnt for his actions TO goes down as an after thought that barely registers on the radar of NFL history.

As far as the TO took the Eagles to the Superbowl talk...he was on 1 of 4 consecutive teams to advance to the NFC championship , granted the one that got over the hump even though he didnt play in the game. But I will tell you that a good friend of mine who was on that team, says to this day that everyone in that locker room thought he faked the injury just to come back ala Willis Reed and make a splash. He said it was literally people walking by him shaking their heads. This coming from a bonafide star, multiple time pro bowler, and future HOF off that team.

My list of WR I take before TO in the all time list includes: Rice, Moss, Brown, Carter, Irvin, Steve Largent, Marvin Harrison, Andre Reed, Isaac Bruce, Chad Johnson, Art Monk, James Lofton, Keyshawn Johnson, Sterling Sharpe, Lynn Swann and maybe Drew Pearson....

[Glengoyne]

^ This.

I can appreciate this opinion.



TO is more akin to Rafael Palmero to me....he finally played long enough to amass some impressive numbers.

I don't understand this. TO was a difference maker for much of his career.



He never struck fear in opposing DC like Moss, Rice, Irvin, etc. did.

Why is Irvin even mentioned in this sentence?


My list of WR I take before TO in the all time list includes: Rice, Moss, Brown, Carter, Irvin, Steve Largent, Marvin Harrison, Andre Reed, Isaac Bruce, Chad Johnson, Art Monk, James Lofton, Keyshawn Johnson, Sterling Sharpe, Lynn Swann and maybe Drew Pearson....

Back to crazy talk.


As far as the TO took the Eagles to the Superbowl talk...he was on 1 of 4 consecutive teams to advance to the NFC championship , granted the one that got over the hump even though he didnt play in the game. But I will tell you that a good friend of mine who was on that team, says to this day that everyone in that locker room thought he faked the injury just to come back ala Willis Reed and make a splash. He said it was literally people walking by him shaking their heads. This coming from a bonafide star, multiple time pro bowler, and future HOF off that team.


First hint I've ever heard of this. There were clearly other injuries/stunts TO pulled that fall into this category. This one just doesn't hold water for me.

And seriously how many bona fide stars were even on that team?=)

[CU Tiger]

Why is Irvin even mentioned in this sentence?


Really? Look at his production per year..if not for his neck injury the record book may look a lot different.


Back to crazy talk.



First hint I've ever heard of this. There were clearly other injuries/stunts TO pulled that fall into this category. This one just doesn't hold water for me.

And seriously how many bona fide stars were even on that team?=)

Well not sure how many, but only one was a college team mate of mine ;).....and his exact words were "biggest p*%%y I ever encounter in the NFL talked a big game but had no balls"...literally no one would hang out with the dude."

[CU Tiger]

I don't understand this. TO was a difference maker for much of his career.



DOLA....mayne Rafe was a bad comparison maybe Curtis martin is better...a difference maker for sure, but never a SUPERSTAR.

[Glengoyne]

Really? Look at his production per year..if not for his neck injury the record book may look a lot different.



I have always thought the Irvin was just the product of him being the third wheel on that wonderful tricycle. Defenses had to play to stop Smith running behind that O-Line, and Aikman was more than good enough to hit his man.

[Glengoyne]

DOLA....mayne Rafe was a bad comparison maybe Curtis martin is better...a difference maker for sure, but never a SUPERSTAR.


Curtis Martin was a difference maker?

Seriously TO made Mcnabb's career year that season. They were a different team with him than without. Four consecutive years making it to the championship game, but that year during the regular season he helped them establish themselves as the team to beat.

My guess is that we're never coming together on this one. You have some inside information...and I've got this rose colored perception of TO's performance that season, as well as those that preceded it.

[SteveMax58]

^ This.

TO is more akin to Rafael Palmero to me....he finally played long enough to amass some impressive numbers.

He never struck fear in opposing DC like Moss, Rice, Irvin, etc. did.

I'm not sure how we measure fear but I simply don't agree with you in regards to Moss. As I mentioned, Moss was a more conventional deep threat WR with great ballskills...in other words, Willie Gault with hands. But TO was a completely different weapon who could also go deep (and did so on many an occasion) but you couldn't just double him outside as he could take it over the middle as well.


If it wasnt for his actions TO goes down as an after thought that barely registers on the radar of NFL history.
A little excessive statement which I assume is because he was an ass. But I don't see how you think he barely registers...he would certainly be on par (assuming he was a quiet guy) with Largent, Harrison, Reed, etc.


My list of WR I take before TO in the all time list includes: Rice, Moss, Brown, Carter, Irvin, Steve Largent, Marvin Harrison, Andre Reed, Isaac Bruce, Chad Johnson, Art Monk, James Lofton, Keyshawn Johnson, Sterling Sharpe, Lynn Swann and maybe Drew Pearson....

Agreed on some of those names as well...but Keyshawn? Come on...now your just hatin. :)

[CU Tiger]

I have always thought the Irvin was just the product of him being the third wheel on that wonderful tricycle. Defenses had to play to stop Smith running behind that O-Line, and Aikman was more than good enough to hit his man.

See, I will admit my bias, I grew up a Cowboys fan, lived through 1-15 and enjoyed the Big 3 years immensly. But even seting aside my bias, I never understood how Emitt wasn't that good he just had a great O-Line and Aikman and Irvin. Aikman was an average at best QB, he just had a great O-Line, Emmitt and Irvin. And Irvin was just OK he had Aikaman and Emmitt.


Something has to give here..... espcially considering for the Sanders lovers, as Detroit had the highest paid O-Line for 7 or 8 years in a row, signed every O-Line free agent that came around, and had Moore who was a highr rankd prospect than Irvin...

Curtis Martin was a difference maker?

Seriously TO made Mcnabb's career year that season. They were a different team with him than without. Four consecutive years making it to the championship game, but that year during the regular season he helped them establish themselves as the team to beat.

My guess is that we're never coming together on this one. You have some inside information...and I've got this rose colored perception of TO's performance that season, as well as those that preceded it.

*Shrug* Martin is 4th All Time in NFL rushing yardsand played on some good teams along the way...mst have been the great WR talent he was surrounded by.

FWIW, I agree we just see this differently, and I can see he appreciation for TO....if you believe his side of the story every time. I have a cousing who is a drug addict, its never his fault and everyone is out to get him.....I feel the same about both. I actually think the Eagles were a much better team with Westbrook being the focus, Like the TB year, than TO they just got much more attention that year because of TO.


I'm not sure how we measure fear but I simply don't agree with you in regards to Moss. As I mentioned, Moss was a more conventional deep threat WR with great ballskills...in other words, Willie Gault with hands. But TO was a completely different weapon who could also go deep (and did so on many an occasion) but you couldn't just double him outside as he could take it over the middle as well.

I never once remember a team saying we HAVE to stop TO to have a chance. Moss every time he stepped on the field. That said, TO gets credit for one thing from me, he never feared going acros the middle and taking the hit....sure he'ddrop the ball half the time but he'd run in there and take a lick...unlike Moss.

Moss (who btw I am not a fan of either) could absolutely embarass you on a give play, TO neded a whole game to pile it up. Moss was a game changer, TO a solid cog...at least in my mind.


A little excessive statement which I assume is because he was an ass. But I don't see how you think he barely registers...he would certainly be on par (assuming he was a quiet guy) with Largent, Harrison, Reed, etc.


Agreed...a bit of hyperbole...but that said..how critical is Steve Largent to the history of the NFL story? I'd consider all 3 an after thought.


Agreed on some of those names as well...but Keyshawn? Come on...now your just hatin. :)

Keyshawn was a lot like Moss in my opinion in this 1 regard. Both could have been the best ever....if they only wanted it.

[SteveMax58]

Agreed...a bit of hyperbole...but that said..how critical is Steve Largent to the history of the NFL story? I'd consider all 3 an after thought.


I don't think I'd argue much. I think if nothing else...it reaffirms my belief that WRs are a wasted pick in the 1st round for most teams. Probably why they are such divas in the 1st place.

[fantom1979]

I'm not sure why Moss has this mystique about him. The Giants, Ravens, Eagles, and many other very good or better defenses in any given season put the guy in his place pretty regularly. Not the same with TO...not nearly as often.

While Moss was shutdown by the Ravens (17/214/3) in 5 games, he freaking owned the Giants (36/641/9) in 6 games. He was (25/293/2) in 4 games against the Eagles.

Randy Moss Career Splits - Pro-Football-Reference.com (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MossRa00/splits/)

[jbergey22]

I'm talking about 1 on 1 shutdown (generally speaking, of course double coverage is rolled to the best WR in certain downs/situations/schemes in every defense). But I'll say it again, mediocre defenses (and specifically, mediocre CBs) certainly needed to double team him constantly (or pay the price) whereas a stronger CB could rattle him and take him out of the game (mentally & physically).

And Deion at the tail end of his career would naturally not be a good match for Moss in his prime. I'm not saying Moss wasn't great...he certainly was in his own right...just not the same all around force that TO was imo.

You must have not understood what I wrote. Defenses didnt play man defense on him. They sat in a cover 2 deep virtually the entire game. The only team that really thought they could guard him man on in his younger years was Dallas who had Deion Sanders. Well Moss torched him for 3 TDs in the Thanksgiving game.

Daunte Culpepper made pro bowls because the defenses played against Moss were so simplified for him which made it possible for an idiot like himself to find success. Did you happen to notice what happened to Daunte when Moss left??? Daunte had seen basically the same defense from 2000-2004 so when 2005 rolled around and the Vikings had traded Moss, Daunte had no idea how to handle all these different blitzes and coverage schemes that teams were playing on them.

The defenses you are talking about are what they played against WR's like TO. Moss was a completely different beast because when he got free it wasnt just a first down.

Go watch film of the 2000 Minnesota Vikings. You will see both safetys playing 25 yards off the LOS 80 percent of the game.

Football is a different animal than other sports because stats dont paint a very good picture. It wasnt only Moss's stats the made him great is was also the threat of Moss that made him great. I dont think its an oddity that a past his prime Moss combined with one of the best QBs of all time went on to break records that had been around for a very long time.

There wasnt any corner that could guard Moss one on one. Strong defenses could frustrate him when they never came out of the cover 2 and the Vikings werent moving the ball but there was NEVER a single corner that could defend him in his younger years.

With that said he was a complete punk last year and I hope he retires.

[Glengoyne]

See, I will admit my bias, I grew up a Cowboys fan, lived through 1-15 and enjoyed the Big 3 years immensly. But even seting aside my bias, I never understood how Emitt wasn't that good he just had a great O-Line and Aikman and Irvin. Aikman was an average at best QB, he just had a great O-Line, Emmitt and Irvin. And Irvin was just OK he had Aikaman and Emmitt.


Something has to give here..... espcially considering for the Sanders lovers, as Detroit had the highest paid O-Line for 7 or 8 years in a row, signed every O-Line free agent that came around, and had Moore who was a highr rankd prospect than Irvin...



*Shrug* Martin is 4th All Time in NFL rushing yardsand played on some good teams along the way...mst have been the great WR talent he was surrounded by.



On Irvin, aikman, and smith. I think I miscommunicated there. Smith was the big wheel on that tricycle. I do consider him an all time great. A Better RB than Aikman was a QB and Irvin a WR. I'd also argue that Dallas had maybe the best OL in the NFL those years.

IMO E Smith > B Sanders. I understand also a minority opinion.


Oh and I'd totally agree with an assessment that Martin = Palmiero, but TO was better than both of them.

[SteveMax58]

While Moss was shutdown by the Ravens (17/214/3) in 5 games, he freaking owned the Giants (36/641/9) in 6 games. He was (25/293/2) in 4 games against the Eagles.

Randy Moss Career Splits - Pro-Football-Reference.com (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MossRa00/splits/)

I'm talking when they were actually good. Plenty of bad Giants defenses throughout his career to exploit.

Specifically, the NFC Championship game of 2000 comes to mind. Not that anybody else stepped up and did much on Minn but Moss was completely rattled and basically gave up.

[SteveMax58]

The defenses you are talking about are what they played against WR's like TO. Moss was a completely different beast because when he got free it wasnt just a first down.

Go watch film of the 2000 Minnesota Vikings. You will see both safetys playing 25 yards off the LOS 80 percent of the game.
Right...agreed. Moss & TO were different WRs and defenses accounted for them differently.

I'm not sure I understand why you're implying Cover2 is mutually exclusive from playing Man underneath, unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. CBs are not "Zone" necessarily in a C2 defense...they can be Zone or Man but its dependent on the defense (and the specific play in most cases).

It would be next to impossible to discern Man vs Zone CB coverage for every play he faced but even if the CB was in a Zone coverage...he'd still be perfectly capable of jamming the WR on a shallow zone and this is what I'm referring to...not whether most CBs could run as fast as him down the sideline. We know that wasn't the way to defend him and my point was that good/great defenses (with good/great CBs) could jam him until he gave up. Naturally he was able to get some homeruns here & there against some good defenses. The point was that he was easier to take out of games than TO...if you defended him correctly...and didn't just assume your mediocre #1 CB could run with him.

Football is a different animal than other sports because stats dont paint a very good picture. It wasnt only Moss's stats the made him great is was also the threat of Moss that made him great. I dont think its an oddity that a past his prime Moss combined with one of the best QBs of all time went on to break records that had been around for a very long time.
Agreed on all accounts. But you seem to be implying teams just singled up against TO and found that to be a reasonable approach. They didn't send a FS 20 yds downfield but they had to roll more underneath coverages his way to defend his intermediate routes which he might break if you dont have somebody capable of tackling him. Many CBs were not capable of tackling TO if he caught it in stride...and if they were...they generally weren't capable of matching his speed so they were already out of position to make the tackle.

Again...different styles of WR. Both commanded attention, just in different ways.


With that said he was a complete punk last year and I hope he retires.
Completely agree. And I'd add that TO is also an ass, albeit a different type of ass.

[Rizon]

Yikes, this dude got problems.

Terrell Owens In GQ: I'm In Hell (http://www.thepostgame.com/features/201201/terrell-owens-gq-jeremiah-trotter-told-me-not-apologize-donovan-mcnabb)

[CrimsonFox]

````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````Dan Marino ??
** 2nd most career passing yards, 2nd most career passing TD

Walter Payton ??
** 2nd most career rushing yards, 2nd most career rushing attempts, 4th most career rushing TDs

****
Terrell ..
** 2nd most career receiving yards, 2nd most career receiving TDs, 5th most career receptions.

Just wondering how people perceive Terrell. If it weren't for Jerry Rice (who, lets be real - THAT GUY wasn't even human); a statistical argument could be put up that he is the best WR ever.

I know, I've never thought of him in a Payton, Marino way - Does he deserve to be in that mold ?

Jim Morrison?

Scott Weiland?

Charles Manson?

Steve Garvey?

Ace Frehley?

David Lee Roth?

David Ruffin?

[RedKingGold]

I'm pretty sure TO will be dead within the next five years.

[JediKooter]

I'm pretty sure TO will be dead within the next five years.

He was at Penn State?

[Blackadar]

Couple of things:

Walter Payton was arguably the best back of all time. Not only did he shatter Jim Brown's rushing records, he was easily the most complete back of any of the leading rushers. He was an absolute workhorse, being the top 5 in carries in the league an astounding 9 times in his career. He was the Chicago offense for many years as well, playing with some really lousy QBs. Plus, he could block, catch (492 receptions in a pre-West Coast offense league), get the short yardage, pass and even punt.

I'm not sure if TO is getting enough credit. The guy excelled in a number of different systems, was always in great shape and always came to play. That's the difference between Moss and TO - TO may be a cancer, but on the field he didn't quit. Moss had a better peak, but he tuned out far too often (even for entire seasons). TO wasn't the kind of guy who got a lot of receptions, but he turned what he got into a lot of yards. His career YAC is 5.3, which is very strong. He was a major end zone threat, with 7 times in the top 5 in receiving TDs (while only being in the top 5 in receptions twice in his career). Simply put, the guy produced and is 35th in Pro Football Reference's Career Value - tied with Joe Montana and is the 2nd WR on that chart behind Rice. I wouldn't have wanted him on my team given is volatile nature, but he was undoubtedly one of the best WRs ever.

[thesloppy]

I have a favorite TO play that I think perfectly illustrates the difference between him and Moss....and here it is:

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/gEHd7M6ri_4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[stevew]

I think that it's pretty apparent now that both TO AND McNabb were giant turdballs.