How to play Defense?

[Higgs44]

Im asking for help, because im at my wits end with this. Every league im in regardless of personnel, my defenses are getting torched. I have some leagues where my secondary is damn good in terms of bars and I still get torched.

Im under the impression that its good to play run defense when offense is throwing short as it brings your players up. Im also under the impression that aggressive run or pass d is pretty bad as you are opened up too much.

Im also under the impression zone defense sucks and doesnt work worth a damn. Ive had countless games where id be in 3/4 deep and get torched deep, which should be a rare event.

Ive been playing run defense in early downs in hopes of stopping the run, but that isnt working either.

Im pretty good most of the time in 1st and 2nd downs, but 3rd downs i cant stop anything, and it really sucks.

Im begging the community to help on this as ive pretty much run out of options and am about to just quit all my leagues.

Is it really a cohesion factor? Does it really mean THAT much? Does talent mean nothing?

Just an example of the quality of my defensive back 7....
SILB 59/59 54 m2m, 96 zone, 68 bnr
WILB 51/56 poor pass defense, but under impression it doesnt matter.
SLB 86/86 100 m2m, 54 zone, 89 bnr
WLB 51/51 poor pass defense, but in 3-4 is a blitzer
CB 57/57 58 m2m, 68 zone, 54 bnr, 80 play diagnose
CB 75/75 82 m2m, 78 zone, 80 bnr, 71 play diagnose
SS 86/89 90/100 m2m, 88 zone, 93 bnr, 76/91 play diagnose
FS 22/44 31/66 m2m, 36/72 zone, 35/68 bnr, 26/57 play diagnose

[Steel]

There are several things wrong here.

1. I've never heard of playing run defense to stop the short pass. I looked at the logs of your last game in USFL, and you are in run defense WAY TOO MUCH. That is part of your problem.

2. Playing aggressive pass D only increases the chances of an incompletion or interception on defense. The fall back is if your opponent is running the ball, you get killed on the ground.

3. Start double teaming someone, anyone. In this particular game, you didn't call a double team not one time.

4. 3 deep and 4 deep work to stop the deep ball, but some of the games you're referring to in which you secondary is getting burned, are short to intermediate passes and the WRs or TEs are breaking them for long gains. So, in theory, it is stopping the deep ball. Your LBs and DBs just need to make the tackle.

5. Cohesion is huge. You shouldn't be near the bottom of the league with that talent level you have, although you are failing to mention that your team is very young, and you are starting 2 rookies at safety, which is also playing a factor in this particular league.

[strickzilla]

How to play Defense - Front Office Football Central (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=71641&highlight=%22defense%22)


also check out this thread

[Higgs44]

There are several things wrong here.

1. I've never heard of playing run defense to stop the short pass. I looked at the logs of your last game in USFL, and you are in run defense WAY TOO MUCH. That is part of your problem.

2. Playing aggressive pass D only increases the chances of an incompletion or interception on defense. The fall back is if your opponent is running the ball, you get killed on the ground.

3. Start double teaming someone, anyone. In this particular game, you didn't call a double team not one time.

4. 3 deep and 4 deep work to stop the deep ball, but some of the games you're referring to in which you secondary is getting burned, are short to intermediate passes and the WRs or TEs are breaking them for long gains. So, in theory, it is stopping the deep ball. Your LBs and DBs just need to make the tackle.

5. Cohesion is huge. You shouldn't be near the bottom of the league with that talent level you have, although you are failing to mention that your team is very young, and you are starting 2 rookies at safety, which is also playing a factor in this particular league.

Ive heard the run D is good for short passing game, a seasoned vet confirmed it. I cant say one way or another if i agree.

I took off the double to try something new, as doubling wasnt working.

[Sef0r]

Call slight passing defense and be in 1 deep bump n run for 1st and 10. This is a typical defense to call for most owners - obviously change it up to "passing defense" and do a 50/50 split of 2 deep bump and run/man2man for those teams that tend to pass more.

You probably know this but...

If the best WR on the other team has a lower RR then their 2nd best WR, make sure to double their secondary WR if you choose to have your DBs cover best WR instead of covering their respective sides.

[Higgs44]

Ive basically re did my entire DGP according to some thoughts on here, game in HFL tonight, will post results and entire GP here 2morrow for some feedback.

Yes sef0r i did know the RR thing, but thanks. I saw your post after i re did my GP, but I will try it, though I havent been terrible on 1st and 2nd, rather, pretty good... its 3rd down that kills me.

[thenewchuckd]

I used the game plan analyzer thing by Mr. Stelmack to look at a few things in the USFL. I think maybe 4 seasons, I can't remember how long I have been playing there. A few interesting things:

-3 and 4 deep zone are definitely better at stopping passes than man or bump. Not a heck of a lot better but better. These results are statistically significant, we're talking about thousands of plays here:

-passes have a 39.4% success rate into 3 deep zone
-a 35.3% success rate into 4 deep zone
-a 42.6% success rate into 2 deep bump
-a 42.3% success rate into 2 deep man
-about 50% success rate into either 1 deep
-similar success rates to the 2 deep as there is for weak/strong and strong/weak coverages, with strong side man being slightly better (0.7% better).

-I'm not sure it is clear that you see more ints thrown into zone, as Steel says. My data is inconclusive on that point, as I only have hundreds of plays instead of thousands. But the percentages I see are pretty close, unless you're throwing into 1 deep coverage. Maybe slightly higher int rates into a zone coverage but not by much.

[thenewchuckd]

I was hoping to answer the question about aggressive run or pass d, but the game plan analyzer can't answer exactly what I was after here. I know Yoda said in his "how to play defense" thread that aggressive pass d is bad at stopping the short pass. I'm not so sure that is true.

Maybe - just maybe - the different options here are just a modifier to stop the pass or run. So playing the pass is just 10% better at stopping the pass and playing aggressive pass is 20% better - something like that.

Anyhow, I was hoping to be able to show defensive expectation vs short and long passes. But game plan analyzer can't do that yet. Instead, all I can tell you is this:

-aggressive run: run success 39.1% (stuf % 26.2), pass success 53.7%
-run normal: run success 38.9% (stuf % 22.9), pass success 48.1%
-pass normal: run success 48.0% (stuf % 17.6), pass success 42.2%
-pass aggressive: run success 50.8% (stuf % 12.8), pass success 35.1%

Interesting that the sack % did not go up much from run normal through to pass aggressive. The int rate certainly does, though. It starts at 1.7% for run aggressive to 3.1% for pass aggressive. Although, people might be throwing deep more into a pass aggressive defense. You never know.

[thenewchuckd]

Just an example of the quality of my defensive back 7....
SILB 59/59 54 m2m, 96 zone, 68 bnr
WILB 51/56 poor pass defense, but under impression it doesnt matter.
SLB 86/86 100 m2m, 54 zone, 89 bnr
WLB 51/51 poor pass defense, but in 3-4 is a blitzer
CB 57/57 58 m2m, 68 zone, 54 bnr, 80 play diagnose
CB 75/75 82 m2m, 78 zone, 80 bnr, 71 play diagnose
SS 86/89 90/100 m2m, 88 zone, 93 bnr, 76/91 play diagnose
FS 22/44 31/66 m2m, 36/72 zone, 35/68 bnr, 26/57 play diagnose

Finally, I think the players you quote here are from the USFL. Some of these guys are no doubt worse than their ratings. I can't remember all of them but I know some took pretty significant drops in their first TC.

And... your depth is atrocious. Your 3rd CB is 23 rated. Your 1st backup S is 38 rated... Etc.

[gstelmack]

Anyhow, I was hoping to be able to show defensive expectation vs short and long passes. But game plan analyzer can't do that yet. Instead, all I can tell you is this:

???

Pass At Distance Vs PlayCall

under League passing. No, it's not quite short vs long, but it is broken down by the distances the offensive GM can choose on his gameplanning screen. I can add rows for short vs long if you really want me to.

[gstelmack]

Taking the base question: in the WOOF, almost 9 seasons for 6.3+ data, pass defenses are better against screens. 49.5% success vs run aggressive, 42.3% vs run, 38.9% vs pass, and 30.7% vs pass aggressive.

At 0to4, same thing, 49.9% vs run aggressive down to 29.7% vs pass aggressive. 5to8 same trend although generally more successful, 57.3% vs run aggressive to 39.7% vs pass aggressive.

Completion percentage shows similar trends, although there seems to be a minor glitch in that run aggressive can keep overall yards per catch down a bit. INTs are MUCH lower against run aggressive, though, and against run defenses in general.

If your opponent is throwing the ball, you want to be in a pass defense, period.

[thenewchuckd]

???

Pass At Distance Vs PlayCall


Oh. Missed that. Thanks. It is a great tool.

[Higgs44]

Finally, I think the players you quote here are from the USFL. Some of these guys are no doubt worse than their ratings. I can't remember all of them but I know some took pretty significant drops in their first TC.

And... your depth is atrocious. Your 3rd CB is 23 rated. Your 1st backup S is 38 rated... Etc.

How can they be worse than their ratings? a 57 rated CB who came out at 66 but fell to 57 is a 57... why would he be worse than that?

yes...no depth, but its my starters getting torched. Wheeler is a 75 and was a HUGE grower yet hes getting abused.

[thenewchuckd]

How can they be worse than their ratings? a 57 rated CB who came out at 66 but fell to 57 is a 57... why would he be worse than that?

Because some (most, all?) players just never completely unmask.

As for Wheeler, I don't have an explanation for that. Maybe, to quote you from the USFL, that's just bad dice. Or somewhat related to cohesion. I dunno.

[Higgs44]

to be fair... here are my TC results of the 3 drafts Ive had....

Post TC 2022 draft

1.12 WR Bo Lester 32/56 37/56 +5/0
1.15 LT Billy Stewart 26/56 30/60 +4/+4
2.07 LB Julio Delgado 39/62 46/61 +7/-1 Starting SILB
2.27 CB Jorge Wheeler 28/61 35/67 +7/+6 Starting CB
3.05 OG Karl Booker 22/69 26/64 +4/-5
3.30 LB Frankie Shields 16/63 22/59 +6/-4 Starting WILB
4.16 DT Brady Maxwell 28/42 30/40 +2/-2
5.15 RB Ricky Tubbs 38/58 39/52 +1/-6
6.18 DT Donnie Stokes 22/52 27/50 +5/-2
7.17 WR Isaac Duncan 18/31 20/31 +2/0

TC Results 2023 Draft

1.6 WLB Gary "Great" Scott 65/81 71/81 +6/0 Starting SLB
2.3 WR Phillip "Fun Bunch" Blackwell 25/68 28/59 +3/-9
2.12 WR Dustin "Peek A Boo" Grillot 28/39 29/39 +1/0
3.2 WLB Richie "Moonlight" Wolfe 38/65 42/62 +4/-3 Starting WLB
3.18 RB Wesley "Golds Better Than" Coppa 32/56 34/47 +2/-9
3.24 WR Derek "Godzilla" Garrison 27/43 30/42 +3/-1
4.3 K Reggie "The Leg" Gallimore 34/77 36/71 +2/-6
4.4 FB Ian "Wintr Fall Spring" Summers 33/47 35/47 +2/0
5.3 TE Shane "Clown" Weber 17/56 21/51 +4/-5
6.2 ST Joel "Worth Weight In" Golder 14/34 15/29 +1/-5
7.3 FS Sammy "Not Rene" Zellweger 16/53 18/44 +2/-9

UDFA
RB Thurman Hancock 23/43 17/32 -6/-11
RB Skip McMichael 24/43 26/40 +2/-3
FB J.T. Darlington 19/44 20/38 +1/-6
LT Geoff Devito 8/38 12/36 +4/-2
DE Derek Holliday 25/31 28/33 +3/+2
DE Jerry Rivers 15/42 18/40 +3/-2
DE Neal Sheldon 19/38 18/35-1/-3
CB Grant Komljenovich 24/45 26/41 +2/-4

TC Results 2024 Draft

1.03 WR Vinny Harris 42/72 48/74 +6/+2
1.07 SS Chester Hardy 58/88 65/89 +7/+1 Starting SS
1.15 WR Ian Glenn 37/65 42/65 +5/0
2.02 QB Lester Bui 11/34 13/30 +2/-4
2.27 FS Victor Jamison 20/53 20/44 0/-9 Starting FS
3.03 CB Lawrence Rivera 24/37 26/37 +2/0
4.02 P Irving Humphries 41/52 42/52 +1/0
4.12 QB Johnny Banda 16/61 24/56 +8/-5
5.03 QB Gabe Davison 10/34 13/33 +3/-1
5.18 OT Mitch Chavis 17/45 21/41 +4/-4
6.02 DT Cornell Preston 22/41 27/44 +5/+3
6.27 S Rod Brecher 19/53 21/48 +2/-5
7.03 DT Dominic Caldwell 24/36 26/36 +2/0

Thats 7 of my starting Defense

[Steel]

Something else I missed the first time I looked at your team. You are getting virtually no pressure at all on the QB. Your pass rush percentage is 16.6, which is 26th in the league. That's downright awful, for any league. I would suspect QBs are standing in the pocket all day and picking apart your back 7 due to a lack of pressure from your pass rushers.

[Higgs44]

Something else I missed the first time I looked at your team. You are getting virtually no pressure at all on the QB. Your pass rush percentage is 16.6, which is 26th in the league. That's downright awful, for any league. I would suspect QBs are standing in the pocket all day and picking apart your back 7 due to a lack of pressure from your pass rushers.

Yeah, my DL is awful for the most part, which is why i just switched to a 3-4. I have 2 good rush OLBers, so that should improve.

[Higgs44]

Last nights game, 1st with new GP....

I basically did what Yoda said. I rexed the GP, then subtracted the aggressive and added em to the run and pass. I played a very good NE team that was 7-1 at the time with a top 5 scoring offense, so this was a real test.

http://www.hfl-football.net/leaguehtml/box1994141216.html

We held them in check virtually the entire game, outside of their first drive, which they went through me like a hot knife through butter.

Gave up only 213 yards of offense. 2 INTs.

[Yoda]

Keep posting like that and people are going to think that I know what I am talking about. lol.

[Yoda]

At SOME point I want to update that.... just need to find the time.

[thenewchuckd]

Thats 7 of my starting Defense

Ok, wasn't going to get into this but here we go:

2.07 LB Julio Delgado 39/62 46/61 +7/-1 Starting SILB

Had him at O in the draft. 59 current is probably about his value but it is likely slightly less than that. Maybe not much less. I know I'm splitting hairs here.

3.30 LB Frankie Shields 16/63 22/59 +6/-4 Starting WILB

This guy was VO, it was pretty clear from his combines and draft bars. You see him at 56 right now but he's certainly worse than that.

1.6 WLB Gary "Great" Scott 65/81 71/81 +6/0 Starting SLB

This guy is a clear stud. However, you play him at SLB and if I remember right, you never bothered to convert him from WLB. I'm just going by memory here but I would be interested to know his positional experience at SLB.

3.2 WLB Richie "Moonlight" Wolfe 38/65 42/62 +4/-3 Starting WLB

Another one of those clear VO guys. I think you posted here that his value is 51 now but I see him at less than that. He certainly looks better than he is. I think he is a better pass rush option than your DEs but it is not clear to me how much better.

1.07 SS Chester Hardy 58/88 65/89 +7/+1 Starting SS

Clear stud in the making.

2.27 FS Victor Jamison 20/53 20/44 0/-9 Starting FS

I'm sure you could pick someone out of FA and he would be better than this guy. I don't see his bars so I will give the benefit of the doubt that he must have the right bars for your system.

And of course Wheeler is a stud, we talked about him already. I'm not sure why he is not performing. But if you were playing run d to stop short passes, Stelmack's post above may provide some of the answer.

[Higgs44]

Ok, wasn't going to get into this but here we go:

2.07 LB Julio Delgado 39/62 46/61 +7/-1 Starting SILB

Had him at O in the draft. 59 current is probably about his value but it is likely slightly less than that. Maybe not much less. I know I'm splitting hairs here.
Another high sol run stopper. Decent SILB, could be better in pass D.

3.30 LB Frankie Shields 16/63 22/59 +6/-4 Starting WILB

This guy was VO, it was pretty clear from his combines and draft bars. You see him at 56 right now but he's certainly worse than that.
I disagree, his combine said he was a great run stopper with a high sol. Thats exactly what he looks like. Since WILB really only needs run stopping, hes a perfect fit.

1.6 WLB Gary "Great" Scott 65/81 71/81 +6/0 Starting SLB

This guy is a clear stud. However, you play him at SLB and if I remember right, you never bothered to convert him from WLB. I'm just going by memory here but I would be interested to know his positional experience at SLB.
Stud, hes in red at experience at both OLB spots.

3.2 WLB Richie "Moonlight" Wolfe 38/65 42/62 +4/-3 Starting WLB

Another one of those clear VO guys. I think you posted here that his value is 51 now but I see him at less than that. He certainly looks better than he is. I think he is a better pass rush option than your DEs but it is not clear to me how much better.
While not a stud, hes far from a clear VO player. High sol, and run stopper. See a pattern? :) His PRT bar sits at 80, which prob is a bit over inflated as he ran a 4.67. No pass D skills really, but at WLB no need for em.

1.07 SS Chester Hardy 58/88 65/89 +7/+1 Starting SS

Clear stud in the making.
Right

2.27 FS Victor Jamison 20/53 20/44 0/-9 Starting FS

I'm sure you could pick someone out of FA and he would be better than this guy. I don't see his bars so I will give the benefit of the doubt that he must have the right bars for your system.
Dropped quite a bit in TC, prob gets replaced next season. in the meantime though hes playing pretty well. with 82.5 PD %.

And of course Wheeler is a stud, we talked about him already. I'm not sure why he is not performing. But if you were playing run d to stop short passes, Stelmack's post above may provide some of the answer.
Im baffled by him, though he played better against seattle with new GP.

[thenewchuckd]

3.30 LB Frankie Shields 16/63 22/59 +6/-4 Starting WILB

I disagree, his combine said he was a great run stopper with a high sol. Thats exactly what he looks like. Since WILB really only needs run stopping, hes a perfect fit.

3.2 WLB Richie "Moonlight" Wolfe 38/65 42/62 +4/-3 Starting WLB

While not a stud, hes far from a clear VO player. High sol, and run stopper. See a pattern? :) His PRT bar sits at 80, which prob is a bit over inflated as he ran a 4.67. No pass D skills really, but at WLB no need for em.

So basically, here you have two LBs who can stop the run but not do much else.

Shields had a 37 sol score but 83 intel, so his play diagnosis bar projects as middling, maybe even below 50. Actually, his only combine that was worth mentioning was his agility. I think it was a green combine but just barely. You keep saying that a WILB only needs run stopping but if he's on the field for a pass, pass coverage helps. The theory you are mentioning stems from the WILB coming out for nickle and dime.

Wolfe's combines were not much to talk about. When I see his 40 number I am not impressed. If I project, I am thinking a PRT bar of about 50ish, maybe 60 if you are lucky. His run d projects good but a 7.21 agility score is not fantastic, either. 28 sol with 74 intelligence = low play diagnosis bar.

By the way, your starting FS is probably, in reality, a low 30s player once fully developed (and if he completely unmasked). Pretty sure you could find a guy like that in FA. He wouldn't even make my team as a sub. And I'm sure Wheeler would prefer better support than that behind him. ;-)

[Higgs44]

So basically, here you have two LBs who can stop the run but not do much else.

Shields had a 37 sol score but 83 intel, so his play diagnosis bar projects as middling, maybe even below 50. Actually, his only combine that was worth mentioning was his agility. I think it was a green combine but just barely. You keep saying that a WILB only needs run stopping but if he's on the field for a pass, pass coverage helps. The theory you are mentioning stems from the WILB coming out for nickle and dime.

Wolfe's combines were not much to talk about. When I see his 40 number I am not impressed. If I project, I am thinking a PRT bar of about 50ish, maybe 60 if you are lucky. His run d projects good but a 7.21 agility score is not fantastic, either. 28 sol with 74 intelligence = low play diagnosis bar.

By the way, your starting FS is probably, in reality, a low 30s player once fully developed (and if he completely unmasked). Pretty sure you could find a guy like that in FA. He wouldn't even make my team as a sub. And I'm sure Wheeler would prefer better support than that behind him. ;-)


my WILB doesnt play on nickle/dime, and Wolfe doesnt play dime

Wolfes Pass Defense % is 84.7
FS Jamisons Pass Defense & is 82.5

While these numbers are up there, no need to replace.

But beyond that, Ive had 1 game in a 3-4 with new GP, and everyone played much better, small sample, but we'll see going forward.