question about asking for a raise

[albionmoonlight]

My sister-in-law works in bio-tech. She has asked around and done some research and realized that she is somewhat significantly underpaid based on comparable folks at other firms (her firm has somewhat of a reputation for underpaying).

She just finished a big project in which she did well and had an important role, so now is a good time for her to ask for a raise.

She is willing to move to other companies if they don't offer her a competitive salary.

She is going to ask for a raise soon. She expects that they might offer her something less than that for which she is asking (i.e. a small raise that still keeps her under market combined with a one time bonus payment or something).

If that is the case, she has a couple of questions. First, when the company makes a counter offer, is it generally acceptable/expected to take a few days to think about it? Or are you supposed to take or leave it then?

Also, is it considered kosher to take the offer, but--if it is still under-market--start floating resumes and leave for another company? Even if that means you leave a couple of months/weeks after accepting a raise?

[Rizon]

My sister-in-law works in bio-tech. She has asked around and done some research and realized that she is somewhat significantly underpaid based on comparable folks at other firms (her firm has somewhat of a reputation for underpaying).

She just finished a big project in which she did well and had an important role, so now is a good time for her to ask for a raise.

She is willing to move to other companies if they don't offer her a competitive salary.

She is going to ask for a raise soon. She expects that they might offer her something less than that for which she is asking (i.e. a small raise that still keeps her under market combined with a one time bonus payment or something).

If that is the case, she has a couple of questions. First, when the company makes a counter offer, is it generally acceptable/expected to take a few days to think about it? Or are you supposed to take or leave it then?

Also, is it considered kosher to take the offer, but--if it is still under-market--start floating resumes and leave for another company? Even if that means you leave a couple of months/weeks after accepting a raise?

1)Depends, but usually you have time to think about it. Depends on how they want to negotiate. Also, they usually offer you less than what you ask for. And it depends on how valuable you are the company and not how valuable you think you are.

2)Loyalty is dead. A company will shitcan you in a heartbeat. Just at least give the required notice time as written in the employee handbook. Some really important jobs ask for 60+ days, typical is 14-30 days. I had a job where I got a fat bonus and left for their competitor a couple months later. I didn't feel bad because the place was a nightmare of a wreck that was making no efforts to improve.

[Radii]

Doesn't the answer to question 2 invalidate question 1 a bit? If you accept a raise but can still feel underpaid and are able to obtain a better offer elsewhere, I think its perfectly fine to leave. I agree with Rizon's "loyalty is dead" statement.


Going back to the first question about taking time to think about an offer, as long as you're just talking money, I don't see the point. If you start negotiating benefits and things that don't line up as easily then it makes more sense to ask for time to ponder an offer (If she says "hey I want 20% raise and they say 'we can give you 5% raise and a week's extra vacation" or something).

If you ask for 20% more and your manager goes to HR and comes back and says "the best we can do is 5%", I'm taking it with the knowledge that I'm just now more likely to consider leaving. Quitting without another job lined up, or just saying no to the raise don't seem like valid options to me, so there's nothing to think about in my mind.


Two other thoughts:

1) Double check and make sure she didn't sign a non-compete.

2) Every job I've ever left in IT money magically appeared when I turned in my notice. I find this really offensive... "so you were just playing a game of chicken when my yearly review came up or when I expressed an opinion that I was worth more"??? By the time I turn in my notice I've already been through negotiations and my decision is final.... but it seems common to get to this point and to try to take one last shot with the leverage of another offer in hand... so if she goes down that road think in advance about that possibility.

[jeff061]

2)Loyalty is dead. A company will shitcan you in a heartbeat. Just at least give the required notice time as written in the employee handbook. Some really important jobs ask for 60+ days, typical is 14-30 days. I had a job where I got a fat bonus and left for their competitor a couple months later. I didn't feel bad because the place was a nightmare of a wreck that was making no efforts to improve.
2) Every job I've ever left in IT money magically appeared when I turned in my notice. I find this really offensive... "so you were just playing a game of chicken when my yearly review came up or when I expressed an opinion that I was worth more"??? By the time I turn in my notice I've already been through negotiations and my decision is final.... but it seems common to get to this point and to try to take one last shot with the leverage of another offer in hand... so if she goes down that road think in advance about that possibility.
Pretty much 100% agree with both of these. You have to take the money unless you are prepared to quit on the spot. What are they going to think if you turn it down and how will they respond? Loyalty only exists as a ploy to keep people underpaid.

As for then the notice, give what you feel you should. Doesn't matter what the handbook says, it's at will from both sides and you don't need to give any notice. So just give what it takes to keep the bridge from burning.

[Radii]

As for then the notice, give what you feel you should. Doesn't matter what the handbook says, it's at will from both sides and you don't need to give any notice. So just give what it takes to keep the bridge from burning.

Yeah, for sure there too. I've tried to offer a month both of the big job changes I've had. But the shock to me both times was that in my mind, I was done. The inertia I had to break to be willing to leave a comfortable situation, to jump to a new environment that I'm just guessing about, to leave people I like to work with... by the time i get there I'm gone, there is no stopping that. So by the time I tell my employer, its with the official notice, I've already officially accepted the other job and there isn't anything that anyone could say to change it. But both times there was an immediate "I can get you more money" or "What would it take to get you to stay?" impromptu negotiation. I guess to many people its just not like that.

[jeff061]

I consider counteroffers bad business and I've generally responded with that exact phrase when offered.

There may be bad blood because you spoke to other companies, maybe not even with your boss but with your bosses boss. Or maybe they are now offering you more than they are willing to pay and will let you go once a suitable replacement is found. Bad business, you are left on permanently shaky ground.

And yeah, like you said Radii, I've already invested a significant amount of my time and have made a deal with another person. If I need to waste my time and lie to others in order to get paid, I'm not ok with accepting that.

[SteveMax58]

Yeah, I agree with the others here that loyalty is not something to worry about. The only thing to consider is whether you are an industry person, or a skillset person.

For me, I have plenty of skillsets but I'm most valuable because I'm an industry person. Since the number of companies aren't exactly in the 100s (at least that would pay "me" a great salary)...I have to be careful with stuff like this. Your SIL may not have the same concerns and dynamics (I wouldn't think so in Biotech).

[bhlloy]

2) Every job I've ever left in IT money magically appeared when I turned in my notice. I find this really offensive... "so you were just playing a game of chicken when my yearly review came up or when I expressed an opinion that I was worth more"??? By the time I turn in my notice I've already been through negotiations and my decision is final.... but it seems common to get to this point and to try to take one last shot with the leverage of another offer in hand... so if she goes down that road think in advance about that possibility.

My experience in IT mirrors this exactly. I've even seen a very valued member of staff ask for a raise, get turned down flat (with the strongly implied fact that this is going to make him look elsewhere) and then a couple months later, after he's handed in his notice, gets offered a raise far in excess of what he was asking for in the first place.

Absolutely ridiculous for the reasons you mention - a) if you wanted to keep me why don't you want to reward me in the first place and b) the fact that I'm giving my notice means I've accepted a position elsewhere, it's far too late now.

[RainMaker]

I agree with most of the posts. Loyalty is dead and the only thing that matters is your own well-being.

I would ask for the raise and then accept what they counter with. If the counter is not up to her standards she should say "Thank you, it's not what I was hoping for and I still feel that I am worth more on the market. But I understand if that is a high as you are able to go". You want to sound somewhat gracious while at the same time knowing that you aren't happy about it and leave them with a hint that you could look elsewhere to find your worth. It's a tricky situation and I don't know how to word it right, but I would never turn down a raise, I would just continue to push for more.

Another option is to take their lower offer and ask if they can get together again in 6 months to re-evaluate the issue and perhaps work more on bringing her salary up toward its market value. Explain that she enjoys working for them and wants to stay but the economics make it difficult.

[Toddzilla]

As was mentioned previously, every company in the world will shitcan you in a heartbeat and not think twice about it, so don't handicap yourself with this irrelevant notion of "loyalty".

[Chief Rum]

When in doubt, I always go with the Good Fellas request:

"Fuck you. Pay me."

[SportsDino]

Take the raise and fire off your resume. Give no hint, who knows how long the search will take to get the price you want. So I'd play it as reluctantly taking the counter (enough to indicate you are not thrilled) but giving no appearance that you are about to shop around.

Take the story of what you have done and use it as momentum in your resume/phoning/interviews with other companies. Go in with the confidence that you are the best damn thing that ever happened to biotech (and real world examples in your mind of why) and the valuation someone new will put on you will almost always be significantly higher than the company used to crapping on you.

The 'giving notice and finally getting a big offer' situation has to do with the company finally realizing that they can't poop on you and they reassess your worth for the first time. Many companies don't know shit about valuing their employees... a highly paid superstar is worth a whole bench worth of seat warmers. They let the seat warmers color their expectations of raises (I gave those other ten guys 1-2%, I'd be a dick if I gave this lady 15%).

Probably the biggest jumps in your salary will come from jumping jobs until you find a place that is actually in tune with your value and rewards you accordingly. This is assuming of course you are worth something and have special initiative. If you are average and underpaid they could care less.

Edit: There is no profit in loyalty, but ACTING is worth a lot in security and strategic advantage in negotiations. Accepting the raise in a slight negative is more likely to make them up the offer then a severe negative. And if they won't budge, the slight disappointment keeps them from hassling you as you put all your extra energy into shopping around... because they don't really think you would have the guts to jump.

[sterlingice]

2) Every job I've ever left in IT money magically appeared when I turned in my notice. I find this really offensive... "so you were just playing a game of chicken when my yearly review came up or when I expressed an opinion that I was worth more"??? By the time I turn in my notice I've already been through negotiations and my decision is final.... but it seems common to get to this point and to try to take one last shot with the leverage of another offer in hand... so if she goes down that road think in advance about that possibility.

I have seen this so much and it just doesn't make sense. Is there some army of IT people out there who are not inertia-based and leads to this management mentality? Because, yes, by the time someone goes to the effort of looking, they have already decided they're leaving.

SI

[Galaril]

I consider counteroffers bad business and I've generally responded with that exact phrase when offered.

There may be bad blood because you spoke to other companies, maybe not even with your boss but with your bosses boss. Or maybe they are now offering you more than they are willing to pay and will let you go once a suitable replacement is found. Bad business, you are left on permanently shaky ground.

And yeah, like you said Radii, I've already invested a significant amount of my time and have made a deal with another person. If I need to waste my time and lie to others in order to get paid, I'm not ok with accepting that.

+1

[Chubby]

2) Every job I've ever left in IT money magically appeared when I turned in my notice. I find this really offensive... "so you were just playing a game of chicken when my yearly review came up or when I expressed an opinion that I was worth more"??? By the time I turn in my notice I've already been through negotiations and my decision is final.... but it seems common to get to this point and to try to take one last shot with the leverage of another offer in hand... so if she goes down that road think in advance about that possibility.

this +1000

I just went thru this and had already made up my mind that no matter what my now former employer came back with wasn't going to be enough (mostly because I knew they'd never do what it would take to keep me and they did exactly as I expected).

In my case, they knew I was unhappy with my supervisor for a long time yet refused to move me. Of course as soon as I put in my notice NOW they want to move me and give me a raise. No thanks, I'll take the new job I had lined up with same pay (to start), better hours and a million times less stress.

[Chubby]

Yeah, for sure there too. I've tried to offer a month both of the big job changes I've had. But the shock to me both times was that in my mind, I was done. The inertia I had to break to be willing to leave a comfortable situation, to jump to a new environment that I'm just guessing about, to leave people I like to work with... by the time i get there I'm gone, there is no stopping that. So by the time I tell my employer, its with the official notice, I've already officially accepted the other job and there isn't anything that anyone could say to change it. But both times there was an immediate "I can get you more money" or "What would it take to get you to stay?" impromptu negotiation. I guess to many people its just not like that.

IDK, I thought it was common for that to happen

[Coffee Warlord]

Hmm.

I have a distinct feeling I'm gonna be in a very similar boat. I've been poking around for a new job for awhile, strictly due to money (I actually like my job, they like me, the decision makers are not at our location and don't give a rats ass - hence the problem).

Interviewed with a place monday, basically be doing the exact same thing for a major bump in salary. The major hangup there is the fact that I have a feeling they put in way more hours than I have any intention of working. Which, of course, I will be bringing up with them should they offer me a job (as I expect, from my gut feeling).

If I get an offer...dunno. Part of me would love to take it to my boss and see if he can push the Powers That Be for a long overdue raise, but the bad blood could be...bad.

[JonInMiddleGA]

1)Depends, but usually you have time to think about it. Depends on how they want to negotiate. Also, they usually offer you less than what you ask for. And it depends on how valuable you are the company and not how valuable you think you are.

2)Loyalty is dead. A company will shitcan you in a heartbeat. Just at least give the required notice time as written in the employee handbook. Some really important jobs ask for 60+ days, typical is 14-30 days. I had a job where I got a fat bonus and left for their competitor a couple months later. I didn't feel bad because the place was a nightmare of a wreck that was making no efforts to improve.

I think Rizon hit the highlights pretty well here.

[albionmoonlight]

I forgot to update. First, SIL wants to thank everyone who provided advice. She very much appreciated it, and I forgot to mention that here.

Second, her company pretty much said that they were not going to give her what she wanted, but thanks for asking.

So, she's job hunting now.

I'll be interested to see when/if she gets a new job if that opens the checkbook.

[Coffee Warlord]

Heh. They offered, 15k raise, I'm going to wind up turning them down, after hearing that working weekends are often times the norm.

[sterlingice]

Any number of college coaches would be proud ;)

That said, this goes back to a thread a couple of days ago. Why does it take the threat of leaving to drive a raise? Not only that, but, as most of us were talking about, if we've gone to the trouble of trying to find another job and have found one we like, we're already out the door- not negotiating.

SI

[Desnudo]

I forgot to update. First, SIL wants to thank everyone who provided advice. She very much appreciated it, and I forgot to mention that here.

Second, her company pretty much said that they were not going to give her what she wanted, but thanks for asking.

So, she's job hunting now.

I'll be interested to see when/if she gets a new job if that opens the checkbook.

It probably won't unless she has a unique skillest, but they might try and hire her back at a much higher salary in the future. I don't know how large her company is (this makes a huge difference), but a lot of big corporations have a salary band that they will not break regardless of your performance. Getting hired from the outside allows you come in at a higher band. Basically, it might be easier for her to get the job coming in from the outside at the salary she wants or deserves than it is to get the salary as a raise.