Tim Tebow ..

[DougW]

Tim Tebow will succeed in the NFL. He's a hard worker, a student of the game, a natural born leader and most of all a WINNER! It takes time and he'll be nice

Listened to Merril Hoge today on [SportsCenter] and he was just blasting Tebow. The man hasn't even play a full season and its only his 2nd year in.

Guys get on that TV and act like they was all WORLD when they played. How bout encouraging him and wishing him the best instead of hating!!

Just saying.

[DeToxRox]

There are plenty of guys who are natural leaders, who work hard and are students of the game, they just didn't get blown by the national media. None of that makes Tebow special. His inability to read a defense, his awkward throwing motion and his general lack of NFL translatable skills are what will make him a flop.

[Lathum]

hey LeBron!

[DougW]

hey LeBron!

:funkychickendance: :banana:

[Blackadar]

Kyle Orton is better.

It's quite possible that Kyle Orton will always be better.

[rowech]

Kyle Orton has to wonder what he did to piss everyone off. He's not spectacular but he will certainly be better than Tebow and is surely a starting NFL QB.

Tebow's issue is that he was a #1 pick when he had no business being a #1 pick and because of that, he's doomed to be always viewed as a failure. Had he been drafted in the 3rd or 4th rounds where he belonged we would look at anything he does a positive.

Great kid but he's not destined for any long term success in the NFL.

[tyketime]

Tebow can go back to intramurals if he's looking for encouragement and well wishes. He will never live up to the hype.

[Ksyrup]

Although they had different skill sets in college and weaknesses that (will, in the case of Tebow) cause(d) them to fail in the NFL, Tebow is basically Danny Wuerffel with a rock star personality and a Y2K hype machine. And I'm assuming he looks better in underwear. And like Wuerffel, I wish he was on the Saints instead of the Broncos.

[Flasch186]

unfortunately living up to the hype surrounding him would be impossible unless he truly is the next John Elway.

[spleen1015]

Kyle Orton has never been respected. He was winning games when he was in Chicago and they shipped him off to Denver for Cutler. He was miles better than Cutler last year. Now, Denver doesn't want him because of Tebow.

I would take him on the Redskins.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Tebow can go back to intramurals if he's looking for encouragement and well wishes. He will never live up to the hype.

Hype? Seems hard to justify that description when so much time & energy has been invested in ripping him at every turn.

He may never live up to expectations for fans who think he's a franchise savior, but I'm not sure how many of those there are.

Should he have been a first round pick? Questionable IMO (for anyone other than Jacksonville perhaps), since the standard for that seems to be "perennial all-pro" or something. Is he an NFL caliber QB? I'm pretty sure that's a yes. Can you ultimately win a SB with him as the starter? I'd also say that's a yes, with the right supporting cast & the right bounces.

[BYU 14]

.

[tarcone]

I cant wait for Tebow. He will struggle this seasob and all the naysayers will "See, he's terrible." But in the long run, I believe he will succeed. And he has Elways blessing. And we know Elway was one of the greatest ever. I tend to listen to Elway then anyone else.

[Lathum]

I cant wait for Tebow. He will struggle this seasob and all the naysayers will "See, he's terrible." But in the long run, I believe he will succeed. And he has Elways blessing. And we know Elway was one of the greatest ever. I tend to listen to Elway then anyone else.

Why? Just because someone is an amazing talent themselves doesn't mean they are a great judge of talent. Charolette Bobcats anyone?

[Logan]

I wasn't a Tebow fan in college, but I don't know...for some reason I think he'll end up being pretty successful on the NFL level eventually. Obviously his surrounding cast will be crucial.

[stevew]

Tebow was my major fantasy sleeper this year. Oh well

[stevew]

To clarify... I don't think he would win much this year. But he should be good for >250 yards passing, 50 yards rushing and 2-3 Tds at least half of the time.

[tarcone]

Did Elway buy his way into the Broncos like Jordan with the Bobcats? Im not sure.

But I dont think Elway was hired because he is John Elway. I hope, and maybe Im wrong, that he was hired because he can judge talent.

[Passacaglia]

Hopefully whoever hired him was a good judge of judges of talent.

[RainMaker]

I didn't think he was that bad last year as a rookie. Sure he has flaws, but some of the shit Hoge was calling him out for doesn't seem fair for a guy who has started a couple games.

[DougW]

Hopefully whoever hired him was a good judge of judges of talent.

I think that's a stretch. After all, that would mean whoever hired that guy was a good judge of how well someone could judge another persons ability to judge talent. Just seems like a lot to ask of that guy.

[ColtCrazy]

Kyle Orton reminds me a lot of Trent Dilfer. A better than average quarterback that no one respects because he isn't flashy or will ever be a headliner. Dilfer won a Super Bowl and was still shipped out of Baltimore. Kyle has a winning record for his career and could easily be a playoff quarterback in the right situation. He's no Rodgers or Manning, but there's several teams that would love to have him leading their team.

Tebow? Who knows. Vince Young doesn't impress me as a quarterback but he has shown an ability to win. Maybe Tebow can do that. But Denver doesn't have the talent Tennessee did. They are probably the worst team in that division. He would have to be very good to make Denver respectable quickly.

[Atocep]

Kyle Orton reminds me a lot of Trent Dilfer. A better than average quarterback that no one respects because he isn't flashy or will ever be a headliner. Dilfer won a Super Bowl and was still shipped out of Baltimore. Kyle has a winning record for his career and could easily be a playoff quarterback in the right situation. He's no Rodgers or Manning, but there's several teams that would love to have him leading their team.

Tebow? Who knows. Vince Young doesn't impress me as a quarterback but he has shown an ability to win. Maybe Tebow can do that. But Denver doesn't have the talent Tennessee did. They are probably the worst team in that division. He would have to be very good to make Denver respectable quickly.

Dilfer better than average? He completed 55% of his passes in his career and never completed 60% in a season. He also threw more interceptions than TDs.

If that's better than average what the hell is average?

[bronconick]

He's got a slow release, isn't terribly accurate, and thinks he can take on NFL front 7's head on.

What could possibly go wrong?

[JediKooter]

I don't care who the quarterback for the Broncos is as long as the team isn't any good.

[Ksyrup]

I cant wait for Tebow. He will struggle this seasob and all the naysayers will "See, he's terrible." But in the long run, I believe he will succeed. And he has Elways blessing. And we know Elway was one of the greatest ever. I tend to listen to Elway then anyone else.

I don't believe he has Elway's blessing. I think the Broncos front office is praying he's good because of the marketing potential, but I don't believe Elway really thinks he can succeed. I think the public comments are solely because the fans are so much on Tebow's side, he's basically in a no-win situation if he says anything else.

I think Tebow has been so underwhelming in camp, that the Broncos decided to keep Orton. I don't necessarily believe that a deal "fell through." I think it's more likely that when they realized Tebow was having a hard time keeping pace with Brady F'n Quinn, the idea of just throwing him out there this season as the #1 was out of the question.

Personally, I wish they'd just get the grand experiment over with so we can move on, rather than dragging it out another 2-3 years.

[BillJasper]

I like Tebow, think he's a decent kid who works hard. It's not his fault Denver did a major reach by taking him in round 1.

But... can he succeed consistently in the NFL with the looping delivery and poor accuracy?

[Sun Tzu]

Tebow will succeed because he has God on his side.

[Lathum]

Did Elway buy his way into the Broncos like Jordan with the Bobcats? Im not sure.



How they got into their role doesn't matter. As pure talent evaluators just because they were great players doesn't mean they have an eye for talent

[Pumpy Tudors]

Tim Tebow will succeed in the NFL. He's a hard worker, a student of the game, a natural born leader and most of all a WINNER! It takes time and he'll be nice

Listened to Merril Hoge today on [SportsCenter] and he was just blasting Tebow. The man hasn't even play a full season and its only his 2nd year in.

Guys get on that TV and act like they was all WORLD when they played. How bout encouraging him and wishing him the best instead of hating!!

Just saying.
Are these your words, or did you copy and paste them from someplace else? I ask because you have "SportsCenter" in brackets, as if you are substituting it in place of a different word.

[Lathum]

Are these your words, or did you copy and paste them from someplace else? I ask because you have "SportsCenter" in brackets, as if you are substituting it in place of a different word.

It's a tweet from LeBron

[DougW]

Are these your words, or did you copy and paste them from someplace else? I ask because you have "SportsCenter" in brackets, as if you are substituting it in place of a different word.

Lebron James' twitter. That's why Lathum said "Hey Lebron" at post 3 or so :)

[RedKingGold]

I just don't understand the hate for this guy.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Thanks.

[Galaril]

Tebow and this situation some what reminds me when Flutie came out in 84 more than Vince Young. I also think if we endures the criticism for decade he will have some success like Flutie when he is older.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Tebow and this situation some what reminds me when Flutie came out in 84 more than Vince Young. I also think if we endures the criticism for decade he will have some success like Flutie when he is older.

The Flutie comparison crossed my mind earlier as well.

[TRO]

"Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work as hard."

I'm tired of hearing him say this in his stupid commercial. He apparently never worked hard at knowing the meaning of redundancy.

[RainMaker]

I don't know if he'll ever be a starting QB, but I think Tebow could be one of the best backups in the league. Who here wouldn't want him as their backup? He's going to work hard, he's going to be prepared, and he's going to give you something a little different that the defense isn't prepared for if he comes in. Not to mention you can script some short yardage and goalline plays for him too.

Ultimately I think being a top backup will be his calling, although I wouldn't be surprised to see him start on a defensive team where he can be a guy who manages a game, won't turn it over, and will give you a few big plays with his legs. I don't think he's much worse than a guy like Mark Sanchez.

[Ksyrup]

I just don't understand the hate for this guy.

I am a Nole. I am predisposed to not liking him, and that's before you take his questionable talents into consideration.

[RedKingGold]

I am a Nole. I am predisposed to not liking him, and that's before you take his questionable talents into consideration.

Rank in order of your personal hatred: Tebow, Spurrier, Wuerrfel, Meyer, the mascot.

[SteveMax58]

Personally, I wish they'd just get the grand experiment over with so we can move on, rather than dragging it out another 2-3 years.

I think if he has any chance at being a decent starter in the NFL...he needs to be a backup for the next 2-3 years.

This guy needs reps & consistency under a decent OC so he can learn a system and step forward at some point. I think with all he has to learn and change from his college game, he really needs to sit for at least this season. A couple of cleanup jobs here & there, sure. But not starting until he's shown some real consistency. Otherwise, I think he loses his confidence along the way...regardless of how much faith he has.

[MrBug708]

How they got into their role doesn't matter. As pure talent evaluators just because they were great players doesn't mean they have an eye for talent

Jerry West is the counter argument

[stevew]

Kevin McHale

[ColtCrazy]

Dilfer better than average? He completed 55% of his passes in his career and never completed 60% in a season. He also threw more interceptions than TDs.

If that's better than average what the hell is average?

Admittedly bad his first 3 years (including a 4 td, 18 int year), Dilfer went on a stretch with good stats, 2:1 TD to Int ratio, and a 14-4 record over a two year run. He had some productivity. Then, got bounced around and was never the same.

[DougW]

This thread didn't turn out anything like I thought it would. I was going for a Lebron vs. Hoge. I'll be ok though, this was better.

[britrock88]

Orton is way better than Dilfer ever was. It's just that the Bears mismanaged him (benching him after a 10-5 year), and then he grew that wispy beard...

[Danny]

Dilfer was not an average quarterback. He was a serviceable one who didn't kill the team and allowed a great defense to bring a title to Baltimore. Also, the NFL game has changed since then. With the rule changes that place more of an emphasis on throwing the ball, It's going to be more difficult for a Baltimore type team to win the super bowl. The Jets would probably be the closest in today's NFL, and so far they have choked their chances. As an example, look at the last 5 years of superbowl QB's (Grossman being the one exception on a fantastic bears defense, but they got thumped in the big game minus the Hester return).

Rodgers over Roethlisberger
Brees over P Manning
Roethlisberger over Warner
E Manning over Brady
Manning over Grossman

[Danny]

On the Tebow subject, I don't understand the hate for him either. He works hard, seems like a great teammate etc... That said, if he is going to be a successful NFL QB, he needs time to develop and the Broncos would be wise to keep Orton and let Tebow try and develop for another year or two. Some guys like Ryan and Flacco are exceptions, but people are really going overboard with their expectations for young QB's.

[tarcone]

I agree he needs a year to develop. The Broncos look to be bad this year, regardless of who starts at QB. But I think Tebow could weather a couple bad years and come out ok. Kind of like Aikman did. Now, before anyone thinks I am comparing Tebow to Aikman, Im not. But the situations may be somewhat similar.

[Fonzie]

Orton is way better than Dilfer ever was. It's just that the Bears mismanaged him (benching him after a 10-5 year), and then he grew that wispy beard...

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSEK6959tu0UP4GaIiorWYQqPME69pCK08jluIWnf0jZqziSfVNaA

[Ksyrup]

Rank in order of your personal hatred: Tebow, Spurrier, Wuerrfel, Meyer, the mascot.

They're all in the past, so I don't really care enough to hate any of them. We just beat Spurrier, and he's a shell of himself anyway. Except Tebow, since he was drafted by my favorite team. If he was on another team, I probably wouldn't pay any attention. But now, it's personal.

[Passacaglia]

I think that's a stretch. After all, that would mean whoever hired that guy was a good judge of how well someone could judge another persons ability to judge talent. Just seems like a lot to ask of that guy.

WTF? Any moron on the street can be a good judge of of how well someone could judge another person's ability to judge talent. Duh.

[B & B]

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSEK6959tu0UP4GaIiorWYQqPME69pCK08jluIWnf0jZqziSfVNaA

This.


If I end up drafting him in the 12th round or so, I will not say his name.

Uhm, I'll take Neckbeard. Oh, and the vannawhite/sticker bitch will KNOW who I mean without further clarification.

[TroyF]

I don't get the hate for either Orton or Tebow. Here are my thoughts on both and what the Broncos should do, take them for what you will:

Orton: I agree that he is like Dilfer. he's an above average QB who could succeed in a system where he has everything around him. I think the Jets would be my Super Bowl favorite if he's playing for them rather than Mark Sanchez. The problem is Orton isn't going to make those 3 to 5 special plays a game to be in the elite QB class. Manning, Brady, Rogers, Brees, etc. all make a few plays every game where you jump out of your chair. Orton doesn't make those plays. He does EXACTLY what a QB should do most of the time. But that's only good enough to win a title if he's surrounded by a team with ridiculous talent around him.

Tebow: I think Tebow is one of the rare guys whose winning percentage will always be better than how he plays. Look, I know I'll get heat for this, but the reality is Vince Young was headed to being a winning QB before he imploded mentally and I think Tebow is a better QB than Young. I know that in this day and age of advanced stats, we want to not only have a great player but also have him look great in the advanced metrics to prove he's good. Tebow will never be that guy. (being from Denver, I know a lot of people used advanced metrics to show John Elway was overrated as well, something I found to be absurd even before the last few years of his career)

Tebow is never going to look real good in practice or when compared to a QB with solid fundamentals. It just won't happen.

So what does that mean for the Broncos? Well, for starters, they don't have a great team of talent and won't for the next couple of years, so what's the point of Orton? He isn't going to be the long term guy. Get rid of him.

They aren't going to know what they have in Tebow on the practice field. So play him. Like it or not, you wasted a first round pick for him. What's the WORST that can happen? You suck horribly next year and get Andrew Luck for four years and 22 million? Are you kidding me? That is if Tebow sucks beyond belief and the team collapses.

A lot of things make me scratch my head in this. First off, I'm really sick of all the people wishing Tebow would fail. Why? Because he had success at Florida? Because he has hype? Because he's not going to blow a hole in his leg in a nightclub? People seriously need to put a sock in it.

Second off, EVERYONE knew Tebow was a project when he was picked. Yet Hodge decides to grade him out as if he's a finished product. Yeah, we know Tebow isn't going to win a fundamentals competition. This is really a shock? I mean how much do you get paid to throw out that sensational analysis?

Third, everyone has just made up their minds on the guy. The comments I hear all over are "I can't wait until he starts so he can show how much of a failure he is" (ummm, yeah, he's a failure as a football player, his Heisman and national titles prove it), "I can't wait until he starts so he can show he's a pro bowler" (ummmm, yeah, he's victory against the Houston Texans shows he's going to win multiple Super Bowls and be a pro bowler. Good call.

I'm so sick of both sides that I just want to see what he does now.

Orton is in a no win situation. They could start of 6-0 (like he did one other time with the Broncos) and people will still be pissed off, booing him and waiting for him to fail.

[Ksyrup]

Tebow was a phenomenal college QB and by all accounts, a better person. It's really nothing personal. If he came from OU, I'd probably still have doubts about his ability and be pissed the Broncos wasted a #1 on him, but I'd be curious to see what he could do. But the fact is, he played at UF, and I rooted hard against him for 4 years, and withstood so much hype that I have absolutely no interest in rooting for him. I physically can't make myself do it.

I don't even care if the Broncos waived him today and he became the second coming of Joe Montana with the Raiders, I'd be happier than if he played another down for the Broncos. I just don't want to root for him. And because of that, the only option I have is to hope he fails. Because otherwise, he stays longer.

This is where I am these days. College football means way more to me than the NFL. I've pretty much lost all my (waning) enthusiasm for rooting for the Broncos because of this.

[TroyF]

Tebow was a phenomenal college QB and by all accounts, a better person. It's really nothing personal. If he came from OU, I'd probably still have doubts about his ability and be pissed the Broncos wasted a #1 on him, but I'd be curious to see what he could do. But the fact is, he played at UF, and I rooted hard against him for 4 years, and withstood so much hype that I have absolutely no interest in rooting for him. I physically can't make myself do it.

I don't even care if the Broncos waived him today and he became the second coming of Joe Montana with the Raiders, I'd be happier than if he played another down for the Broncos. I just don't want to root for him. And because of that, the only option I have is to hope he fails. Because otherwise, he stays longer.

This is where I am these days. College football means way more to me than the NFL. I've pretty much lost all my (waning) enthusiasm for rooting for the Broncos because of this.

I admittedly like pro sports more than college sports. . . but my hatred of players that don't go to schools I like has been done for a long time. I hope Sam Bradford has a long and successful NFL career. I cheered for Grant Hill (and you have no idea how much I hate Duke) My analysis may get biased if I really hate a player as an individual, I'll fully admit it. But to make a decision that I'll never cheer for a player because he """GASP""" chose a college that was one I hated? Umm, no, I'm not going to do that.

[Ksyrup]

It's a unique situation. I can't say I've ever had this happen before. And maybe this is just my way of putting the NFL on the shelf or something, I don't know. All I know is, I rooted for him to fail for 4 years, was pissed the Broncos took him so high, don't think he will be a good NFL QB, and the combination of all of that leaves me wishing he played for another team and unable to root for him to succeed with the Broncos. I wish he was Josh McDaniels' property, not the Broncos.

[EagleFan]

Tebow was a good college QB but his holier than thou routine is beyond annoying. The favorite story I heard was that he stood up before the Wonderlic test and asked that everyone should bow their heads in prayer before the test began and someone else who was taking the test in the same session told him to STFU.

He will not amount to anything but an emergency backup in the NFL.

[CraigSca]

You know, it's interesting. I admit I haven't followed college football much beyond watching Maryland the past few years. Too many things with family, the house, etc., taking up my weekends.

However, I've often wondered why there's so much hatred towards Tebow. I mean, he's obviously a man of conviction, and we usually hold that in high regard. I know that Christianity/monotheism, is pretty much the whipping boy around here, but I'm really not sure that the hatred equals his "crime". Considering the number of real crimes committed by athletes and the love and adoration that ensues when that player performs well on the field, it just doesn't make sense to me.

[rowech]

You know, it's interesting. I admit I haven't followed college football much beyond watching Maryland the past few years. Too many things with family, the house, etc., taking up my weekends.

However, I've often wondered why there's so much hatred towards Tebow. I mean, he's obviously a man of conviction, and we usually hold that in high regard. I know that Christianity/monotheism, is pretty much the whipping boy around here, but I'm really not sure that the hatred equals his "crime". Considering the number of real crimes committed by athletes and the love and adoration that ensues when that player performs well on the field, it just doesn't make sense to me.

JEALOUSY

[JediKooter]

I don't really get the hatred for him, but, I don't watch college football or really care for college sports to begin with. So, who knows.

[Matthean]

You know, it's interesting. I admit I haven't followed college football much beyond watching Maryland the past few years. Too many things with family, the house, etc., taking up my weekends.

However, I've often wondered why there's so much hatred towards Tebow. I mean, he's obviously a man of conviction, and we usually hold that in high regard. I know that Christianity/monotheism, is pretty much the whipping boy around here, but I'm really not sure that the hatred equals his "crime". Considering the number of real crimes committed by athletes and the love and adoration that ensues when that player performs well on the field, it just doesn't make sense to me.

Think of the most over the top butt kissing job that you can imagine. Like Madden on Favre kicked up to 11. That's the kind of hype that was jammed down people's throats who watched Tebow on TV. It didn't help that he got talked about for four full years as were some athletes will get pushed for 2-3.

[Atocep]

You know, it's interesting. I admit I haven't followed college football much beyond watching Maryland the past few years. Too many things with family, the house, etc., taking up my weekends.

However, I've often wondered why there's so much hatred towards Tebow. I mean, he's obviously a man of conviction, and we usually hold that in high regard. I know that Christianity/monotheism, is pretty much the whipping boy around here, but I'm really not sure that the hatred equals his "crime". Considering the number of real crimes committed by athletes and the love and adoration that ensues when that player performs well on the field, it just doesn't make sense to me.


Two quotes from Tom Brennaman from the BCS title game between Oklahoma and Florida:

If you’re fortunate enough to spend five minutes or 20 minutes around Tim Tebow, your life is better for it

and after Tebow earned a 15-yard unsportsmanlike conduct penalty for taunting Oklahoma’s defense, Brennaman claimed:

That might be the first thing he’s ever done wrong

That sums up every Gator game that was televised and what ESPN was like for 4 years. It really was worse than Favre's coverage in how over the top the gushing was at every single thing he did.

[JonInMiddleGA]

someone else who was taking the test in the same session told him to STFU.

Says more about the jackass. who did that than it does about Tebow afaic.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Two quotes from Tom Brennaman from the BCS title game between Oklahoma and Florida:

The former seems to be a strong consensus even from devout Gator haters (and there ain't exactly no love lost between me & denizens of the denim short capital of the world).

The latter seems more like a throwaway attempt at humor than anything else, considering the context it wasn't a horrible line. Certainly not a great one since it was so obvious, but it's impossible to hit a home run with every sentence in a 3.5 hour broadcast. Trust me, that can't be done even by the best of the best on their best night.

It really was worse than Favre's coverage in how over the top the gushing was at every single thing he did.

{shrug} I never got even 1/10th of the Favre hatred either frankly. Annoying at times with the retired/unretired thing but otherwise the most overhyped thing about Favre for me was the constant drumbeat about him being overhyped.

[JediKooter]

Says more about the jackass. who did that than it does about Tebow afaic.

I know, no surprise coming from me, but, you do have to admit, that was rather pretentious of Tebow to assume a group prayer would be welcome before taking a test. A test. A prayer...before taking...a...test...and the Wonderlic test for that matter. Really? A test. </iverson>

[JonInMiddleGA]

I know, no surprise coming from me, but, you do have to admit, that was rather pretentious of Tebow to assume a group prayer would be welcome before taking a test. A test. A prayer...before taking...a...test...and the Wonderlic test for that matter. Really? A test. </iverson>

By all accounts (I mean, I've never met the guy, so 2nd/3rd hand is the best I've got to work with) I'd imagine it was sincere on his part, naive also, but sincere. I'm not gonna fault the guy for that, not even as someone who is pretty skeptical about some of the more notably devout characters in the sports world. (Yeah CMR, I'm talking about you).

And given the historic performance of some of these "college students" on the test, it certainly wasn't going to do any harm.

[JediKooter]

By all accounts (I mean, I've never met the guy, so 2nd/3rd hand is the best I've got to work with) I'd imagine it was sincere on his part, naive also, but sincere. I'm not gonna fault the guy for that, not even as someone who is pretty skeptical about some of the more notably devout characters in the sports world. (Yeah CMR, I'm talking about you).

And given the historic performance of some of these "college students" on the test, it certainly wasn't going to do any harm.

I don't doubt that it was sincere and that's totally cool. And maybe he was thinking of how underwhelming some players have scored and maybe thought they could use any and all help, I'll concede that. But (and there always is), he should have kept his religion to himself and maybe the person that told him to STFU, could have been more diplomatic about it. He's young though, college educated, he'll figure it all out eventually. :)

[JonInMiddleGA]

But (and there always is), he should have kept his religion to himself

And there's where we part company on the subject. (I'll spare the thread the distinction I draw between when it's appropriate/inappropriate, seems irrelevant to the discussion, at least beyond the point of acknowledging that there are cases where I'd deem it a bad call but I don't figure this to have been one of those)


Not likely that differing p.o.v. is a big shock to either of us at this point, so not much to see here I reckon. {shrug}

[RainMaker]

I don't mind the religion thing because I think it's actually legit with Tebow. Now I'm assuming it's voluntary and while odd to see before a test like that, at least it's from the heart. I only care when you hear a guy talk about how passionate he is about his religion and then is out cheating on his wife, doing drugs, or whatever else. It's just a front.

He seems like a good guy and if that helps him be a good guy, more power to him.

[JediKooter]

And there's where we part company on the subject. (I'll spare the thread the distinction I draw between when it's appropriate/inappropriate, seems irrelevant to the discussion, at least beyond the point of acknowledging that there are cases where I'd deem it a bad call but I don't figure this to have been one of those)


Not likely that differing p.o.v. is a big shock to either of us at this point, so not much to see here I reckon. {shrug}

I feel you Jon (not that way). :)

[CraigSca]

Look up that wonderlic test and Tebow on the 'net - some people say he was only speaking to another guy from BYU about saying a prayer, others say he was speaking to the group while Tebow himself denies any of it happened.

[CU Tiger]

I only care when you hear a guy talk about how passionate he is about his religion and then is out cheating on his wife, doing drugs, or whatever else.


You mean like reportely sleeping with over 100 different wominz out of wedlock in 4 years...reportedly including numerous multi amorous parties in Gainesville...

I'm not hatin' I'd shake his hand for that shit...but drop the walk on water crap.


All that said, I think TT is a good guy at heart and I hop he does well.

[tyketime]

Saw this today:

The Tebow era in Denver may be over before it even gets started. The consensus in speaking with a handful of team personnel executives when it comes to one Tim Tebow is this: A trade could happen, but it's becoming increasingly likely the Broncos will keep or cut Tebow because the trade interest is dwindling rapidly. The executives portray the Tebow situation as a complicated one. They believe that while the Broncos are not openly trying to trade Tebow, they say that when teams have recently inquired about him, the Broncos haven't been saying he's off the trading block, either. Again, just to be clear, the Broncos aren't openly shopping Tebow but teams that have asked were told: Make us an offer we can't refuse.

[Ksyrup]

Make us an offer we can't refuse.

One slightly used sideline kicking net and 120% of our costs in producing our current stock of Tebow jerseys.

Broncos would make out like a bandit.

[Matthean]

The problem is they spent a 1st on him and I doubt anybody else thinks he's remotely worth that. He was a 3rd/4th round pick at best so it's Denver's fault for taking him that high. Most teams currently are at a stage to where they are set at QB for the year so unless there are injuries going around I doubt many are looking for what obviously looks like a back up QB.

[EagleFan]

Jesus Christ Claims Tim Tebow Not Ready To Be NFL Starter | The Onion Sports Network (http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/articles/jesus-christ-claims-tim-tebow-not-ready-to-be-nfl,21167/)

Jesus Christ Claims Tim Tebow Not Ready To Be NFL Starter

August 20, 2011 |



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DENVER—Jesus Christ, noted Son of God and football analyst proclaimed Monday that second-year Broncos quarterback Tim Tebow lacks the pocket presence, arm strength, and passing accuracy necessary to be a starter in the NFL. “Tim’s place is at the right hand of the other backups on the bench, and his earthly works show that he deserves to dwell there all the days of his life,” said Lord and Savior of all mankind, adding, ““It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle than for Tim Tebow to complete a pass against the Cover-2”. “For Tebow must have faith in coach Fox’s plan, and pay his dues by wearing the headset, and by calling in plays from the clipboard while watching from the sidelines.” Christ also asked Tebow to stop praying to Him and asking to be made the number one quarterback in the depth chart, claiming “that’s never going to fucking happen.”

[stevew]

Isn't this the time that Tebow should step up and offer to become the best H-Back in the league?

[mckerney]

Broncos officials see Tebow as fourth best QB in camp | ProFootballTalk (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/08/23/some-broncos-officials-see-tebow-as-fourth-best-qb-in-camp/)

“If everything was totally equal, and this were a competition based only on performance at this camp, Tebow would probably be the fourth-string guy,” one source told Silver. “Kyle [Orton] is far and away the best, and Tebow’s way behind [Brady] Quinn, too. And I’m telling you, Adam Weber is flat-out better right now.”

Go Adam Weber!

[tyketime]

15-yard penalty on Boomer Esiason for "piling on":

Move aside, Merril Hoge. You now have competition as Tim Tebow’s harshest critic.

Boomer Esiason, the former Bengals quarterback and current CBS analyst, says Tebow has no business being an NFL quarterback, and just because Tebow was successful at Florida, that’s no reason to think he’ll ever be any good with the Broncos.

“He can’t play. He can’t throw,” Esiason said, via Mike McCarthy of USA Today. “I’m not here to insult him. The reality is he was a great college football player, maybe the greatest college football player of his time. But he’s not an NFL quarterback right now. Just because he’s God-fearing, and a great person off the field, and was a winner with the team that had the best athletes in college football, doesn’t mean his game is going to translate to the NFL.”

Esiason says he can’t imagine why the old coaching staff wanted Tebow and doesn’t see what good it does for the current coaching staff to keep him around.

“What Josh McDaniel saw in him God only knows. Maybe God does know — because the rest of us don’t,” Esiason said.

All indications are that Tebow’s job is safe, even though he may not even be the third-best quarterback in camp. But there are a whole lot of people watching Tebow who think the Broncos would be better off without him.

[GrantDawg]

I guess I haven't followed closely, but what happened? Did he change his arm mechanic and lose arm strength/control? Still trying to use that slow-butt release, and getting killed? Is he not transitioning to the speed of the game?

[DougW]

“Can you believe 15 ? Come on – that’s embarrassing. I mean, it’s a joke. We knew all week that if we brought any kind of defensive pressure, he couldn’t do anything. In the second half it got boring out there. We were like, ‘Come on – that’s your quarterback? Seriously?’ ”

[Chief Rum]

“Can you believe 15 ? Come on – that’s embarrassing. I mean, it’s a joke. We knew all week that if we brought any kind of defensive pressure, he couldn’t do anything. In the second half it got boring out there. We were like, ‘Come on – that’s your quarterback? Seriously?’ ”

Who said that? Schwartz?

[Honolulu_Blue]

Who said that? Schwartz?

No. It was an "unamed" Detroit Lions defensive player.

Having watched the game, I can't necessarily disagree with that statement. It did get boring. As someone who savors every Lions victory - as they have been so rare and precious over the last decade - I found myself flipping to the Red Zone Channel during large portions of the 4th quarter.

[RainMaker]

That Broncos team is utter shit. I know Tebow was bad, but they couldn't block anyone and don't have much in terms of competent receivers or a running game.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Just wondering ... did the unnamed Lions defender make similar comments when they got an even worse performance against them by Cassell earlier this year? Or is this just some jackass trying to be trendy?

You'd think that the Lions would be an awfully good opportunity for a feelgood story, instead, they seem to be determined to be as unlikable as possible.

I'm also reminded here of one of the rules of pro wrestling promos: never bury your opponent so badly that you don't leave yourself room to take any credit.

[RainMaker]

Don't worry, they'll be crying when they lose to a good team like they did against the Niners.

[Subby]

The Big Lead has a good take (http://thebiglead.com/index.php/2011/10/31/everyone-is-getting-their-tim-tebow-hate-out-of-their-system/) on Tebow. He's five games in to his career and he doesn't have a top twenty RB, WR or OL on his team. Calm down.

[bronconick]

Just wondering ... did the unnamed Lions defender make similar comments when they got an even worse performance against them by Cassell earlier this year? Or is this just some jackass trying to be trendy?



Probably closer to something that defensive players say on a regular basis. But since it's about Tebow, it's newsworthy.

[JediKooter]

My opinion is (and not that it matters) is...it's way too early. He's on a crappy, crappy team.

[Ksyrup]

The Big Lead has a good take (http://thebiglead.com/index.php/2011/10/31/everyone-is-getting-their-tim-tebow-hate-out-of-their-system/) on Tebow. He's five games in to his career and he doesn't have a top twenty RB, WR or OL on his team. Calm down.

He doesn't have the skills for any of that to matter.

The sooner people realize that, the sooner the Broncos can start to go about the business of upgrading the talent across the roster, giving the next QB a team to work with.

[molson]

He should be a backup that can give a real different dimension and spark off the bench. No shame in that.

The guy had a great college career but even going into that year's draft he wasn't viewed as a 1st-rounder, much less a surefire NFL starting QB. And many, if not most clear 1st-round guys don't even pan out. The Teebow thing has just taken on a life of its own SINCE his career started, for some reason.

He'd be much better off backing up an established starter somewhere.

[Ksyrup]

As someone tweeted yesterday (paraphrasing): The question isn't whether the Broncos should put Tebow in an offense he's more familiar with that will take advantage of his strengths, it's whether he's a good enough QB to warrant the Broncos completely changing their offense/personnel to fit his style.

If they are going to make this work, they have to go all-in with him. And they hired John Fox. I think Tebow's ability to succeed in Denver was determined months ago.

[stevew]

Ultimately his ceiling is as a better Jim Jensen. He could easily be a very good contributor on many facets of the team. I don't think he can survive as the #1 QB on a bad team, he has shown nothing to suggest that. But if he were to go somewhere with an established starter, say NO, ATL, Pitts, NE, GB or the Giants I think he could become a very successful weapon.

[flounder]

So wait ... we're back on Tebow's side now? I'm getting whiplash.

[JonInMiddleGA]

knowing where the receiver should be

Given the state of the Broncos, is anyone sure the receivers are where they're supposed to be?

[Ksyrup]

When you are fixated on Eric Decker, your team officially sucks.

[korme]

Merrill Hoge really likes Tim Tebow

[Pumpy Tudors]

Merrill Hoge really likes Tim Tebow
cool tim tebow gets an endorsement from mr. walking head trauma himself gg

[Atocep]

cool tim tebow gets an endorsement from mr. walking head trauma himself gg

That was sarcasm I believe.

Mr. Walking Head Trauma could even see how bad Tebow was and spent the morning on Mike and Mike ripping him.

[JonInMiddleGA]

As much along the lines of how incomplete the NFL QB rating can be as anything else,

Orton 75.7
Tebow 75.1

Orton better completion %, Tebow better TD/INT ratio

[RomaGoth]

Don't worry, they'll be crying when they lose to a good team like they did against the Niners.

Comments like this are evidence that the Lions have arrived for at least this season.

[RomaGoth]

As much along the lines of how incomplete the NFL QB rating can be as anything else,

Orton 75.7
Tebow 75.1

Orton better completion %, Tebow better TD/INT ratio

What I don't get is why people are comparing Tebow to Orton. :confused: That is like comparing poop to shit.

[jbergey22]

They just need to quit trying to make him what hes not and find him a role on the team. He's not a starting NFL quarterback and no team with him as a starting QB will sniff the playoffs. However he could work his magic in some of them wildcat formations and maybe 1 series a game set aside to a Tebow package of plays.

The optimistic side says he will improve but the same things that were said about him draftday seem to be very accurate 1.5 years later. He isnt inaccurate, he has a very slow release, and his ability to read a defense is very questionable.

Certain people on the NFL network are calling him the worst QB in the league. Quite the accomplishment when you have Tavares Jackson, Matt Moore, and Beck currently starting.

I sort of feel bad for him. He can be a useful NFL player if he is used right but they are just going to crush his confidence and turn the fans against him.

[Pumpy Tudors]

That was sarcasm I believe.

Mr. Walking Head Trauma could even see how bad Tebow was and spent the morning on Mike and Mike ripping him.
my bad

[cuervo72]

The Big Lead has a good take (http://thebiglead.com/index.php/2011/10/31/everyone-is-getting-their-tim-tebow-hate-out-of-their-system/) on Tebow. He's five games in to his career and he doesn't have a top twenty RB, WR or OL on his team. Calm down.

While he's older, you could also say the same about John Beck (four starts with MIA, two with WAS). As a Skins fan, how do you feel about Beck going forward?

[Atocep]

The Big Lead has a good take (http://thebiglead.com/index.php/2011/10/31/everyone-is-getting-their-tim-tebow-hate-out-of-their-system/) on Tebow. He's five games in to his career and he doesn't have a top twenty RB, WR or OL on his team. Calm down.

It doesn't take a great team around you to make the proper reads and hit open receivers. Those things are on him and are things he should be doing in his 2nd year as a pro.

[DanGarion]

Don't worry, they'll be crying when they lose to a good team like they did against the Niners.

They already lost to a good team...

[Matthean]

Just wondering ... did the unnamed Lions defender make similar comments when they got an even worse performance against them by Cassell earlier this year? Or is this just some jackass trying to be trendy?

You'd think that the Lions would be an awfully good opportunity for a feelgood story, instead, they seem to be determined to be as unlikable as possible.

I'm also reminded here of one of the rules of pro wrestling promos: never bury your opponent so badly that you don't leave yourself room to take any credit.

The Lions are giving me a very Bad Boys type of vibe where they succeed and piss people off with their play style. The difference is that the Lions are much more verbal about it as well. It's a team built on aggression and big plays. If you can contain them, you'll win. If you can't, they will absolutely beat you into the ground.

[korme]

Why can't the Broncos just Brad Smith his career and we can all move on?

[jbergey22]

Its probably a bad sign for the Lions if they are acting like they do when their wins are against. Very little grip on reality.

Tampa
KC
Minny
Dall
Den
Chicago

Lets see them beat a good team before they act like they are a NFL elite team.

Suh is a stud but he should wait awhile before he thinks he is a second coming of Ray Lewis and can intimidate every team he plays using that style.

I dont think Id want my up and coming young team pissing off the rest of the NFL until they can back it up.

[DeToxRox]

Its probably a bad sign for the Lions if they are acting like they do when their wins are against. Very little grip on reality.

Tampa
KC
Minny
Dall
Den
Chicago

Lets see them beat a good team before they act like they are a NFL elite team.

Suh is a stud but he should wait awhile before he thinks he is a second coming of Ray Lewis and can intimidate every team he plays using that style.

I dont think Id want my up and coming young team pissing off the rest of the NFL until they can back it up.

Lions are probably a 9-7 team but let's not forget they are 4-0 on the road which in the NFL is incredible.

[jbergey22]

Lions are probably a 9-7 team but let's not forget they are 4-0 on the road which in the NFL is incredible.

Yeah I give them credit they are going to be tough. My point was simply that I wouldnt want my young team acting like they have accomplished something quite yet. They need to continue to work hard and improve so they can reach higher goals other than beating a few average/below average teams.

I think it was very unprofessional on what the "unnamed defensive player" said about Tebow. The Lions are only a few years removed from a winless season so youd think theyd respect a team having a tough year a bit more than they do.

[thesloppy]

I dunno that the Lions have really done all that much (remarkable) talking or acting....a lot of their 'dirty' play seems just as manufactured and forced upon them as Tebow's anointment.

An unnamed Lion player saying Tebow isn't very good is hardly all that inflammatory is it? Most of the talking heads were saying the same thing immediately after the game, so I don't know how it can be deemed all the revolutionary or disrespectful. Especially since it's coming from an 'unnamed player', as reported by a blogger. I don't imagine it would be too hard to overhear a comment of greater insult, from an unnamed player in the winning locker room after every NFL game.

I certainly don't think these young Lions or their coaches can be labeled anything close to gracious, but I think the dirty/evil label is being pasted on them a bit hastily, and enthusiastically. Most of what they've done this season seems minor/common, and only appears remarkable because the media repeatedly choose to put them under the microscope, and single out any shred of evidence that could be interpreted as 'dirty play'.

[jbergey22]

An unnamed Lion player saying Tebow isn't very good is hardly all that inflammatory is it?

Well he was a bit harsher than just saying he wasnt very good and it probably wouldnt bother me if it came from the Patriots or Steelers. Its just that it is coming from the Lions. The Lions have been awful for so long so they cant just win a few games and act like they have any right to tell someone they suck. They just seem to think suddenly they are in the NFL elite.

One step at a time Lions.

[Matthean]

Lions are probably a 9-7 team but let's not forget they are 4-0 on the road which in the NFL is incredible.

Again, those wins are against KC, Minn, Denver, and TB. Only the TB wins carries much weight.

[thesloppy]

Well he was a bit harsher than just saying he wasnt very good and it probably wouldnt bother me if it came from the Patriots or Steelers. Its just that it is coming from the Lions. The Lions have been awful for so long so they cant just win a few games and act like they have any right to tell someone they suck. They just seem to think suddenly they are in the NFL elite.

It was harsher...but not that much, considering it was quoted from an unnamed player, out of context....this wasn't (necessarily) someone bragging to a reporter. I assume that it was essentially something overheard in the locker room, said between teammates, and in that context it was practically tame.

Also, the next paragraph in that very blog reads (http://denver.sbnation.com/denver-broncos/2011/10/31/2526963/tim-tebow-embarrassing-broncos-lions):

It would be one thing if this particular defender could be written off as an outlier, but during the time I spent in the Lions’ locker room after the game – and, later, on the phone with various coaches, front-office executives and players around the league – similarly harsh assessments were uttered about the second-year quarterback making his second start of the 2011 season.

So basically, he could've attributed a similarly harsh assessment to anybody, but an 'unnamed Lions player' will do. Again, I certainly won't accuse the Lions of being classy, but I'm guessing "joke" and "boring" were actually some of the nicer words used to describe Tebow, after Sunday's game.

[jbergey22]

Fair enough.

I just want to like the Lions badly as their fans deserve it but I wish the players would show a bit more class and not act like they have a given right to be good all of a sudden. Calvin Johnson and Suh are two of the best young players in the league so the franchise is in good shape finally. Dont become public enemy #1.

EDIT
I failed to mention Millen is just a bad memory at this point which is most important to the Lions finally being in a good shape.

[Bigsmooth]

If you watched that full game yesterday it's glaringly obvious that he doesn't have the skills to play QB in the NFL. Alarmingly slow delivery and lack of anticipation is plain to see. He was just horrible. Sure his weapons are scarce but this is much deeper then that. Obviously I'm no expert but I've been watching football for 25 years now and his performance as a passer was laughable. Lucky for the Broncos front office they are in a win-win situation. If they keep playing him the fans will be happy and they will lose games. They have as good a shot at Luck as anybody.

[Schmidty]

Fair enough.

I just want to like the Lions badly as their fans deserve it but I wish the players would show a bit more class and not act like they have a given right to be good all of a sudden.

It's ok that you don't like the Lions. I, and most other Lions fans have no problem with it. They don't need other people to love them or to give them validation. They talk shit, beat on opponents, have a bad attitude, and don't give a flying fuck whether you non-Lions fans like it or not. I think it's great. Maybe it's the Pistons Bad Boy years, and all of the Red Wing hate that made me love my teams being the villains.

I hope they stay as classless and brutal as possible. Lions fans are the only fans opinions that matter when it comes to this team.

[jbergey22]

They have quite a ways to go before they can be classified as villians Im afraid. Right now they are the Cubs of the NFL that seems to not be handeling their limited success all that well.

When they get to the playoffs they can be villains and it might be cool. Being a constant loser and acting like a villain is a joke.

[jeff061]

I like the lions roughly a million times more than the fucking Jets. A little swagger in detroit is healthy.

[jbergey22]

I like the lions roughly a million times more than the fucking Jets. A little swagger in detroit is healthy.

Of course you are a Pats fan;) But Id still agree.

[SteveMax58]

I don't get the knee jerk responses to Tebow at all. He's never been a superstar talent, he's just had a great set of physical tools & work ethic to suggest he could have a shot at being a legitimate NFL QB. Based on the limited evidence we've seen so far, I'm not sure why that would change because of 1 game in his first handful of starts.

I could point to just about every game Eli played in his rookie season & much of what he did in his 2nd season. Hell...he still does things that make me cringe. Like him or not, and whether you think he's an elite QB or not, Eli is a legitimate starting NFL QB without question.

How about Steve Young? Did anybody see the Bucs years for him? Yeah, he wasn't going to amount to much either.

I'm not saying Tebow will be Steve Young, or even Eli Manning, but to judge the guy that harshly based on a bad start given his inexperience so far is just as foolish as thinking he'll be in the Pro Bowl.

These criticisms are foolish:

Slow Release: I can teach my 7-yr old son how to quicken his release with some simple instructions on where to hold the ball when he drops back. This is mechanics & can take time but lets not act like he's too old to learn this and doomed to have a slow release. He never needed a faster release in College or prior and is adjusting to NFL speed. His release may also be slowed by his indecision which will lessen as he is more sure of where he is throwing the ball.

Inaccuracy: He doesn't get "it"...yet. And "it" means where the defenders are lurking, where EVERY receiver should be on EVERY route to optimize the play in relation to the defense, and general pocket awareness timing so he knows when to start sliding out of the pocket or when to just throw it away. Maybe he never does get it but inaccuracy isn't completely a "talent" that you either have or not. Lots of things make a QB look more or less accurate and that isn't even to start talking about the surrounding players.

[Ksyrup]

He has already scrapped trying to quicken his release. He started during draft prep and beyond, and now he's back to his regular motion.

His accuracy wasn't that great in college, either. Danny Wuerffel's college accuracy suddenly disappeared in the NFL, too.

[jbergey22]

Yeah, if the quick release was easy to fix you would think it would have been fixed 5 years ago. In fact his release is probably the biggest part of the problem. These NFL corners and safetys get a quicker break on his passes which doesnt leave him any room for error.

[Butter]

It's not like this was his first start. Arguably, for 3 1/2 quarters he looked WORSE against the Chargers than he did this week.

Top 10 picks get years to turn it around. Tebow is not that. He needs to improve. Greatly. And soon. This is likely to be the last shot he gets to be a real NFL starter. If you look this bad for very long, you will be written off. Just because Tebow is supposedly this really earnest, wonderful guy doesn't mean that if he doesn't produce NOW he won't be benched.

Part of me thinks that John Fox is playing him to show the fans who have been dying to see him "See? Look how bad he sucks. Now can you let us get back to trying to win games instead of auditioning this guy?"

[Ksyrup]

GI-Bow

http://dougorama.net/images/gibowbanner.jpg

[Peregrine]

Tebowing (http://tebowing.com/)

[Ksyrup]

Too many people are getting the Tebowing thing wrong. It's not the Thinker pose, kneeling. His wrist is not curled back toward his head, it's off to the side. If you're going to be stupid enough to photograph yourself Tebowing, at least get it right.

[SteveMax58]

Yeah, if the quick release was easy to fix you would think it would have been fixed 5 years ago. In fact his release is probably the biggest part of the problem. These NFL corners and safetys get a quicker break on his passes which doesnt leave him any room for error.

I don't think he would have fixed it in College. Why? He had a national championship caliber o-line in College...the guy didn't need to have a faster release. I agree that in a sense, that great o-line may have slowed his progress for the NFL, but as a QB, he's having a ton of things put on him every week. And in college...making his release quicker clearly wasn't the priority with the coaching staff.

I'd also question how much its being harped on right now and for that matter, how genuine the develop of the guy is within the Denver organization. Is he having too much info to process put on him? Look at any young QB and you'll see that an OC doesn't run the full offense that they would like to run with them. I'm sure his current OC is doing the same but its a fine line between forcing an offense on a young QB or giving him just enough to go along with the other things he needs to learn & improve on.

This is his current QB coach. IDK, he may be more qualified than I am, but his resume doesn't scream "QB genius" to me.

Adam Gase
Quarterbacks; born March 29, 1978, Ypsilanti, Mich. Attended Michigan State. No college or pro playing experience. College coach: Louisiana State 2000-02. Pro coach: Detroit Lions 2003-08. Joined Broncos in 2009.




At the end of the day, it seems obvious to me that Denver has other plans than grooming Tebow along. And that's a perfectly fine conclusion...the guy is a project at best.

But I also think the bar has been set artificially high in the media for young/rookie QBs to come in and perform great immediately when the reality is...the young QBs you've seen perform well in the past 5-10 years are performing well inside of offenses designed by smart coaches to limit their exposure to things they aren't ready for. Big Ben, Eli (2nd season), Ryan, & Flacco were just not screwing up within limited offenses that could run the ball even if you knew it was coming & limited in their throws. And they were each considered NFL-ready (or would be) unlike Tebow. Rivers, Rodgers, and the like sat on the bench for a few seasons as well...so we don't know how bad they would have looked in their rookie/2nd season.

[Butter]

Rodgers looked terrible in his first couple of outings. I remember some people talking about how screwed the Packers were when Favre retired.

But there's terrible... and then there's TERRIBLE.

[jbergey22]

Rodgers looked terrible in his first couple of outings. I remember some people talking about how screwed the Packers were when Favre retired.

But there's terrible... and then there's TERRIBLE.

He wasnt that terrible. I remember his first start was against the Vikings. He had a 115.5 and a 117 rating his first two starts. Probably packer fans sticking up their hero or something.

Aaron Rodgers - Green Bay Packers - Game Log - NFL - Yahoo! Sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7200/gamelog;_ylt=AuGKH73vogXOF0qyRY6cYtb.uLYF?year=2008)

[Butter]

I was referring to the non-starts... the games in '05 and '06 from that log.

[Ksyrup]

I think what most people are missing about Tebow when comparing him to Rodgers or Eli or other young QBs who struggled before putting it together is that they started with a baseline of physical tools and mechanics that projected to NFL QB. Obviously, not every QB who has the size or arm makes it. And some undersized guys with less than ideal arm strength have become very good QBs.

But from where Tebow is starting as far as physical tools, arm strength, mechanics, etc., he is so far behind the 8 ball, he makes Doug Flutie look like Peyton Manning. His only real chance at being even an average starting QB is going all-in with him and basically running a slightly modified college offense for him. The NFL is not the place to look for that kind of outside the box thinking/innovation. Even when it happens, it happens slowly. But Denver hired John Fox as coach with Tebow on the roster, so that suggests to me that he never had a shot, and he's only getting a shot now to show that he can't play. And next year, we'll be looking at Matt Barkley or Landry Jones in the draft.

[jbergey22]

I was referring to the non-starts... the games in '05 and '06 from that log.

Ok, I was kind of figuring that when I re-read your post.

Not sure if that was a very fair assessment of him though. They lost 1 of the games 48-3 and another 35-0. By the time he got in the game the D-line had no worries other than trying to get sacks.

I do remember certain Packer fans not being happy with him around the midway point of his first year as a starting qb. From looking at his gamelogs I cant really figure out why.

[JediKooter]

I'm sure the Raiders would love to pick Teb...oh wait, Al is dead...never mind.

[molson]

I'm sure the Raiders would love to pick Teb...oh wait, Al is dead...never mind.

Despite death, he was able to make that carson palmer trade.

[JediKooter]

Despite death, he was able to make that carson palmer trade.

Good point. I do find the timing of his death and Palmer trade a bit suspicious. Where's the death certificate?

[larrymcg421]

Going back and searching through the archives, there was tons of shit thrown at Rodgers, not just after his first few starts, but even after his first full season. The blame was laid at his feet for a 6-10 season eventhough he matched Favre's numbers from the year before and it was the defense that dropped from 6th to 21st. But here is my favorite post:

Which is pretty much what I'd say about those who think Rodgers will ever be a winning QB in the NFL. I'd take Favre with arthritis, a migraine, and a sharp stick protruding from his right eye over Rogers in a heartbeat.

[jbergey22]

I've had Sunday Ticket since 1998. I watch the NFL every minute that it is on.

You say anyone with half a brain can see how talented Romo is, but in the same post ask exactly what I see in Cutler that makes him head and shoulders above Rodgers? It is not me who has trouble evaluating QB talent.

Case in point: Jay Cutler. Professional talent evaluators put his market value at two 1sts, a 3rd and a starting QB. Noone would give a first for Aaron Rodgers right now. Yet you think he's more talented than Cutler.

I always enjoyed this one that came up during the Jay Cutler debates.

[SteveMax58]

But from where Tebow is starting as far as physical tools, arm strength, mechanics, etc., he is so far behind the 8 ball, he makes Doug Flutie look like Peyton Manning. His only real chance at being even an average starting QB is going all-in with him and basically running a slightly modified college offense for him. The NFL is not the place to look for that kind of outside the box thinking/innovation. Even when it happens, it happens slowly. But Denver hired John Fox as coach with Tebow on the roster, so that suggests to me that he never had a shot, and he's only getting a shot now to show that he can't play. And next year, we'll be looking at Matt Barkley or Landry Jones in the draft.

I don't think I agree that a team needs to do anything special for the guy as they would do with any young QB that you want to groom along. I do think he's not the prototypical young QB but not because of what he can't do...because of what he CAN do. I think he would have been an interesting Wildcat QB for Miami but certainly not NFL-ready coming out of college. And of course, not 1st rd pick worthy for a project QB.

I think he just needs more time...hell, just give him the 3 years Aaron Rodgers had or the 2 years Rivers had riding the pine before we saw them in any significant action. Tebow likely needs 3 years to learn with a consistent offense so shuffling coaches & coordinators & playbooks around for a project QB is not likely to spell success.

I agree with the comment I saw earlier that said he should go to a team with an established starter already. Let the guy sit behind a Big Ben, Eli, Rodgers, Ryan, Rivers, Brady, Peyton, etc. and just learn. Have a contingency playbook that tailored to him and let him focus on fundamental mechanics, playbook memorization, get some reps with the 1st team offense on occasion(which an established QB doesn't always need).

Maybe a really interesting place for him would be Philly. Mike Vick was a marginal QB at best in Atlanta...and IMHO had a very similar problem in Atlanta...nobody to teach him how to be a real NFL QB. I think right now, if I'm Andy Reid, I'm looking to pick up Tebow in the offseason and have Vick v2 waiting in the wings in 3 years (or on the occasional spot start due to injury).

[RomaGoth]

They have quite a ways to go before they can be classified as villians Im afraid. Right now they are the Cubs of the NFL that seems to not be handeling their limited success all that well.

When they get to the playoffs they can be villains and it might be cool. Being a constant loser and acting like a villain is a joke.

Dude wtf are you even talking about? Stop getting your panties in a bunch because the Lions are winning and talking a little shit. They haven't said anything worse than anyone else in the media or on other teams. The media, once again, has taken something and made it way overblown. The Lions don't do or say anything that 29 other NFL teams don't do as well. :rolleyes:

[RomaGoth]

I think right now, if I'm Andy Reid, I'm looking to pick up Tebow in the offseason and have Vick v2 waiting in the wings in 3 years (or on the occasional spot start due to injury).

Are you seriously comparing Tebow to Vick? lol

[Rizon]

29 other NFL teams don't do as well. :rolleyes:

I guess we aren't counting the Colts and Dolphins anymore ... I agree with that.

[stevew]

Going back and searching through the archives, there was tons of shit thrown at Rodgers, not just after his first few starts, but even after his first full season. The blame was laid at his feet for a 6-10 season eventhough he matched Favre's numbers from the year before and it was the defense that dropped from 6th to 21st. But here is my favorite post:

I may or may not have compared Brohm to Aaron Rodgers. I think that the majority of the shit was because of certain posters who exercised high amounts of hyperbole when talking about certain players. This probably resulted in an irrational backlash.

[RomaGoth]

I guess we aren't counting the Colts and Dolphins anymore ... I agree with that.

:D

[Ksyrup]

Are you seriously comparing Tebow to Vick? lol

It should go without saying, but Tebow doesn't have the arm strength, height, or agility of a Michael Vick to start with. Even if Vick is/was an inaccurate or inconstent passer, his other tools helped to make up for it. Tebow has none of that, as a starting point. That's what I've been saying. Equating Tebow to a maligned QB who has gotten better with time/reps misses the point, because it wasn't an apples-to-apples comparison to begin with.

[Ksyrup]

Going back and searching through the archives, there was tons of shit thrown at Rodgers


Rodgers was a consensus top-5 pick who slid to the mid-20s. Tebow was a maybe mid-2nd or 3rd round project pick who was taken half a round before most teams would have been willing to gamble on him. The fact that they were both taken in the mid-20s is about the only comparison that can be made between the two.

[RomaGoth]

It should go without saying, but Tebow doesn't have the arm strength, height, or agility of a Michael Vick to start with. Even if Vick is/was an inaccurate or inconstent passer, his other tools helped to make up for it. Tebow has none of that, as a starting point. That's what I've been saying. Equating Tebow to a maligned QB who has gotten better with time/reps misses the point, because it wasn't an apples-to-apples comparison to begin with.

Tebow couldn't carry Vick's water bottle, and I am no fan of Vick.

[flounder]

His only real chance at being even an average starting QB is going all-in with him and basically running a slightly modified college offense for him. The NFL is not the place to look for that kind of outside the box thinking/innovation.

I haven't watched any Carolina games this year, but I swear that I heard someone say that they're running a lot of plays for Cam Newton that are straight out of the Auburn playbook. I know I've seen a least one highlight where they were running a read option play.

[SteveMax58]

It should go without saying, but Tebow doesn't have the arm strength, height, or agility of a Michael Vick to start with. Even if Vick is/was an inaccurate or inconstent passer, his other tools helped to make up for it. Tebow has none of that, as a starting point. That's what I've been saying. Equating Tebow to a maligned QB who has gotten better with time/reps misses the point, because it wasn't an apples-to-apples comparison to begin with.

Steve Young never had any of those tools either but people somehow compare Vick TO him.

Similar styles is what the comparison is...physical tools only get you so far.

[SteveMax58]

Are you seriously comparing Tebow to Vick? lol

Yes, just as saying Painter is Peyton Manning's backup means you are comparing Painter to Manning. :banghead:

[RomaGoth]

You said:

I think right now, if I'm Andy Reid, I'm looking to pick up Tebow in the offseason and have Vick v2 waiting in the wings in 3 years (or on the occasional spot start due to injury).

Yes, just as saying Painter is Peyton Manning's backup means you are comparing Painter to Manning. :banghead:

Pretty sure you were comparing Tebow to Vick, not just saying he will be his backup. Or am I missing something here?

Oh, and you really shouldn't bang your head against a wall, that will give you a headache.

[SteveMax58]

Pretty sure you were comparing Tebow to Vick, not just saying he will be his backup. Or am I missing something here?


How about a "Poor man's Vick" then?

Naturally, no QB has had the full range of physical talent that Vick had coming into the NFL. But thats kind of the point...even WITH Vick's incredible talent came a lackluster performance which wasn't properly groomed along until a competent (and committed) coaching staff got a hold of him.

You can point to his maturity & level of commitment as an individual, but it also takes a committed and competent coaching staff. I think Tebow is committed and has the physical tools (not of Vick's level, but of an NFL QB)...not convinced Denver has the committed staff or the competency though.

[Butter]

Yes, it is the coaching staff's fault that Tebow sucks balls.

[korme]

I understand what SteveMax is trying to say, and somehow you guys are not, but I still disagree with the idea that even with a few years on the sidelines that Tebow will "get it". I just don't think he has the football IQ.

[jbergey22]

I just don't think he has the football IQ.


This part he will eventually get and if it was his biggest issue you guys would probably be right. However when you combine lack of football IQ, with slow release, inaccurate arm, and a release that is much to low you have a qb that wont have success in the NFL.

All of the reasons many NFL experts thought would make him an unsuccessful QB are STILL there 1.5 years later. It really doesnt look like he has improved on them areas at all.

It just doesnt seem to be meant to be. You can maybe get away with 1 flaw but having 3-4 makes it a steep climb.

EDIT
I failed to mention that his footwork is awful as well. Many times he is making throws with his front foot not pointed at the reciever. Probably adds to his accuracy issues.

[SteveMax58]

I understand what SteveMax is trying to say, and somehow you guys are not, but I still disagree with the idea that even with a few years on the sidelines that Tebow will "get it". I just don't think he has the football IQ.

Yes...it takes both. And I'm not convinced he will ever get it either. But the gigantic leap from media darling to worst QB ever in a total of 6 games in the NFL is just silly. Every QB makes throws that are horrendous...including the legendary Trent Dilfer.

My only point is that he definitely will not get it if the coaching staff sees him as the guy they'll be releasing in a couple of months. They're trying to implement "their" offense & who cares if Tim Tebow can't run it.

He's a definite project that needs to sit & learn. Throwing him to the wolves proves very little at this point...as it has always been a given that he's not a finished product yet.

[SteveMax58]

Yes, it is the coaching staff's fault that Tebow sucks balls.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion but not sure you'll find much agreement in it.

[Blackadar]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but not sure you'll find much agreement in it.

I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm.

[SteveMax58]

I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm.

Pretty sure you turned yours off at my post. :)

[MacroGuru]

Yes, it is the coaching staff's fault that Tebow sucks balls.

Well, if they were teabagging Tebow...why yes, it would be their fault..

[Blackadar]

I understand what SteveMax is trying to say, and somehow you guys are not, but I still disagree with the idea that even with a few years on the sidelines that Tebow will "get it". I just don't think he has the football IQ.


I think he has a decent football IQ. He just doesn't have much else.

If he keeps his current throwing motion, he'll always have accuracy issues, DBs will be able to get a jump on his throws and rushers will get another step closer to sacking him. His footwork is absolutely terrible, from the time he leaves center to the time he throws the ball. He throws at the WR and not at the spot. He doesn't go through his progressions well. He doesn't read defenses particularly well.

The last couple of things can be learned. The first couple, at this stage, probably can't be learned.

He's a definite project that needs to sit & learn. Throwing him to the wolves proves very little at this point...as it has always been a given that he's not a finished product yet.

The days of a 1st round pick still being a project in his 2nd year are long gone. From a football standpoint, he, his agent and the Broncos didn't do him any favors by selecting him in the 1st round. But he is one and he has to be ready to play. It's professional football and if he's not, then it's his fault.

Plus, I don't think he'll ever be a finished product. I thought he'd be a much better H-Back and multipurpose threat - aka a new type of Slash. Get him trained on blocking and route running, use his 4.7 speed as a TE/fullback and let him throw the ball on occasion. He could be a 15 play/game player and might be able to be effective in that situational role. But then again, that's not worth a 1st round pick...

[Blackadar]

Pretty sure you turned yours off at my post. :)

Yeah, sure dude, whatever...

[SteveMax58]

The days of a 1st round pick still being a project in his 2nd year are long gone. From a football standpoint, he, his agent and the Broncos didn't do him any favors by selecting him in the 1st round. But he is one and he has to be ready to play. It's professional football and if he's not, then it's his fault.

This isn't the case to the extent you are indicating. Aaron Rogers never played for 3 years, Rivers took 2 years of sitting on the bench, Alex Smith has been frolicking around for many years now because they can't find anything better, and there will certainly be other QBs like these in the future & those who won't be rushed into action before they are ready.

The difference is in how bad/good the team is already, how desperate they are for a "savior" for the franchise, and a few other factors related to the stability of the owner/coaches/fanbase. But rest assured...it isn't universal yet & really won't be unless the NFL becomes a truly different & less complex game than it is today...which I don't see happening.

The "success" that you & others see regarding the Big Bens, Flacco, Ryan, Freeman, Newton, and others is the complete haircut the offense takes for a rookie QB. It is simplified for them to minimize their risk. A smart AND committed OC does this because the franchise QB will not be the one leaving...he will. Naturally those other QBs have more upside than Tebow but don't discount the role of playcalling & the coaching staff plays in this.

In the case of Denver, they really don't need to care about Tebow since nobody coaching/working there drafted him. You're right they didn't do him any favors, and this is basically why he's being thrown out there so early, but it doesn't prove or disprove the "known" project that Tim Tebow was going into the draft (as a QB anyway). It might save a little face...for Denver after they release him...but it won't matter for another team that is willing to take a shot with him.

Plus, I don't think he'll ever be a finished product. I thought he'd be a much better H-Back and multipurpose threat - aka a new type of Slash. Get him trained on blocking and route running, use his 4.7 speed as a TE/fullback and let him throw the ball on occasion. He could be a 15 play/game player and might be able to be effective in that situational role. But then again, that's not worth a 1st round pick...
I agree. He will likely never be a viable NFL QB because a lot of circumstances would have to come together for him. The biggest of which is the ability to sit & learn. Not everybody will give him this time without him having some special teams or other positional value. But somebody might see it as worthwhile for a cheap contract.

[BillJasper]

After watching the CFL on ESPN3 and NFL Network, I'm convinced he would make a solid QB in that league. Learn the things he needs to learn without the pressure and then come back and be a respectable starter someday ala Doug Flutie.

[Pumpy Tudors]

After watching the CFL on ESPN3 and NFL Network, I'm convinced he would make a solid QB in that league. Learn the things he needs to learn without the pressure and then come back and be a respectable starter someday ala Doug Flutie.
The CFL may help him in one sense. Since he'll have an extra eligible receiver on each play, when his pass wildly misses his intended target, there'll be an extra guy out there who might be able to catch it.

Edit to add: He also won't have to deal with so many pesky third down conversions.

[BillJasper]

The CFL may help him in one sense. Since he'll have an extra eligible receiver on each play, when his pass wildly misses his intended target, there'll be an extra guy out there who might be able to catch it.

Edit to add: He also won't have to deal with so many pesky third down conversions.

:lol:

[gkb]

Dammit Josh McDaniels. This thread is another thing I'm blaming you for.

[JediKooter]

Hey don't feel bad. The Broncos are only 2 back of first place in the AFC West.

[RomaGoth]

The CFL may help him in one sense. Since he'll have an extra eligible receiver on each play, when his pass wildly misses his intended target, there'll be an extra guy out there who might be able to catch it.

Edit to add: He also won't have to deal with so many pesky third down conversions.

lol :lol:

[SteveMax58]

Hey don't feel bad. The Broncos are only 2 back of first place in the AFC West.

IMAGINE IF TEBOW STARTED EARLIER?!

:lol:

[RomaGoth]

How about a "Poor man's Vick" then?

Naturally, no QB has had the full range of physical talent that Vick had coming into the NFL. But thats kind of the point...even WITH Vick's incredible talent came a lackluster performance which wasn't properly groomed along until a competent (and committed) coaching staff got a hold of him.

You can point to his maturity & level of commitment as an individual, but it also takes a committed and competent coaching staff. I think Tebow is committed and has the physical tools (not of Vick's level, but of an NFL QB)...not convinced Denver has the committed staff or the competency though.

Which physical tools are you referring to? The wild under/overthrow to his receiver? The inability to drop back from center and step into a throw? No way is Tebow going to be more than a backup QB in the NFL, and even that may be a stretch. He had 4 years at Florida to learn how to read a defense, I sincerely doubt the non-committed Denver coaching staff has the patience to teach him these things at this point.

[SteveMax58]

Nobody is saying he'll be a great QB. Confusing "results prove nothing" with "he'll be a great QB" is well...confusing.

[Blackadar]

This isn't the case to the extent you are indicating. Aaron Rogers never played for 3 years, Rivers took 2 years of sitting on the bench, Alex Smith has been frolicking around for many years now because they can't find anything better, and there will certainly be other QBs like these in the future & those who won't be rushed into action before they are ready.

Faulty logic. Rogers had someone named Brett Favre playing in front of him. Rivers had someone named Drew Brees. How do you know those guys weren't ready to be effective starters their 2nd year? You don't, and therefore your examples aren't valid logical comparisons.

Now it's true a that occasionally a QB blossoms late in their career. Rich Gannon is a prime example. Alex Smith may be another. But let's talk about both of those guys in a minute...

The "success" that you & others see regarding the Big Bens, Flacco, Ryan, Freeman, Newton, and others is the complete haircut the offense takes for a rookie QB. It is simplified for them to minimize their risk. A smart AND committed OC does this because the franchise QB will not be the one leaving...he will. Naturally those other QBs have more upside than Tebow but don't discount the role of playcalling & the coaching staff plays in this.

Gannon and (to a lesser extent) Smith needed the right system in which to thrive. That's what you're getting at here with Ben/Ryan/Freeman, etc. But the problem is that the possible system in which Tebow might perform better can't be performed at the NFL level. It's not a pro system. That's the major difference. It's one thing to simplify an offense (Alex Smith) or bring in a QB tailor made for a west-coast scheme (Gannon). It's entirely another to try to entirely overhaul an offense into a system that can't work in the NFL. Tebow's most comfortable in a spread offense out of a shotgun. He doesn't have the accuracy to run such a system and Denver doesn't have the talent. Even if they did, it's not a viable full-time NFL system. We've already covered that.

Also, is there any evidence that there's a system problem here? Does the offense look too complex?

In the case of Denver, they really don't need to care about Tebow since nobody coaching/working there drafted him. You're right they didn't do him any favors, and this is basically why he's being thrown out there so early, but it doesn't prove or disprove the "known" project that Tim Tebow was going into the draft (as a QB anyway). It might save a little face...for Denver after they release him...but it won't matter for another team that is willing to take a shot with him.

Now you sound like you're buying into the "sabotage" conspiracy theory. It's not worth addressing. If you think John Fox or John Elway would accept losing just to prove the fans wrong or destroy someone's career, you're off your rocker.

I agree. He will likely never be a viable NFL QB because a lot of circumstances would have to come together for him. The biggest of which is the ability to sit & learn. Not everybody will give him this time without him having some special teams or other positional value. But somebody might see it as worthwhile for a cheap contract.

We have a fundamental difference of opinion here. I believe his biggest obstacle is his lack of fundamentals. I think the guy gives it his all. I think he's smart. I think he's driven. I think he'll try to walk through razor wire to win. But I don't think he can ever overcome the major technical deficiencies in his footwork and throwing motion to be a consistent NFL starter. Ive seen some guys with odd throwing motions be successful QBs. Tarkington threw an ugly ball. Billy Kilmer threw a horribly ugly ball. Bernie Kosar threw sidearmed. But they were fundamentally sound in other areas to overcome that. Tebow's not...and he's not even close. From a professional standpoint, once he takes the snap he looks like a monkey fucking a football.

Even there's a (small) chance that he could, he's not owed that chance. This is professional football and not Pop Warner. If he can't get the fundamentals down on his own, there are 100 other guys who can who are willing to take his place for the rookie minimum. That's why he was a bad pick.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

[RomaGoth]

Faulty logic. Rogers had someone named Brett Favre playing in front of him. Rivers had someone named Drew Brees. How do you know those guys weren't ready to be effective starters their 2nd year? You don't, and therefore your examples aren't valid logical comparisons.

Now it's true a that occasionally a QB blossoms late in their career. Rich Gannon is a prime example. Alex Smith may be another. But let's talk about both of those guys in a minute...



Gannon and (to a lesser extent) Smith needed the right system in which to thrive. That's what you're getting at here with Ben/Ryan/Freeman, etc. But the problem is that the possible system in which Tebow might perform better can't be performed at the NFL level. It's not a pro system. That's the major difference. It's one thing to simplify an offense (Alex Smith) or bring in a QB tailor made for a west-coast scheme (Gannon). It's entirely another to try to entirely overhaul an offense into a system that can't work in the NFL. Tebow's most comfortable in a spread offense out of a shotgun. He doesn't have the accuracy to run such a system and Denver doesn't have the talent. Even if they did, it's not a viable full-time NFL system. We've already covered that.

Also, is there any evidence that there's a system problem here? Does the offense look too complex?



Now you sound like you're buying into the "sabotage" conspiracy theory. It's not worth addressing. If you think John Fox or John Elway would accept losing just to prove the fans wrong or destroy someone's career, you're off your rocker.



We have a fundamental difference of opinion here. I believe his biggest obstacle is his lack of fundamentals. I think the guy gives it his all. I think he's smart. I think he's driven. I think he'll try to walk through razor wire to win. But I don't think he can ever overcome the major technical deficiencies in his footwork and throwing motion to be a consistent NFL starter.

Even there's a (small) chance that he could, he's not owed that chance. This is professional football and not Pop Warner. If he can't get the fundamentals down on his own, there are 100 other guys who can who are willing to take his place for the rookie minimum. That's why he was a bad pick.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

This pretty much covers it.

[SteveMax58]

Even there's a (small) chance that he could, he's not owed that chance. This is professional football and not Pop Warner. If he can't get the fundamentals down on his own, there are 100 other guys who can who are willing to take his place for the rookie minimum. That's why he was a bad pick.


I AGREE...now please tell me where I'm wrong on that.

[JediKooter]

Please don't delete any posts in this thread. I want to read this thread in the year 2020 and see how the posts stack up.

[Julio Riddols]

I think Tebow and his anything for the team attitude woulld be well suited for an H-back type of role. Maybe you work some plays in around the goalline where you pitch it to him and give him the option to run or pass, maybe you use him as a TE in passing situations, maybe a few wildcat plays here and there.. He would be far more effective as a multi purpose gadget catalyst.

[EagleFan]

Yes, just as saying Painter is Peyton Manning's backup means you are comparing Painter to Manning. :banghead:

Tebow isn't even good enough to be Painter's backup...

[SteveMax58]

Faulty logic. Rogers had someone named Brett Favre playing in front of him. Rivers had someone named Drew Brees. How do you know those guys weren't ready to be effective starters their 2nd year? You don't, and therefore your examples aren't valid logical comparisons.

Now it's true a that occasionally a QB blossoms late in their career. Rich Gannon is a prime example. Alex Smith may be another. But let's talk about both of those guys in a minute...
Right...and my logic is faulty how? You don't think a 1st rd pick will ever have a great QB ahead of him ever again and will always need to start & be effective...um, regardless of whether there is an established (and potentially great) QB on the depth chart?

Sounds like you are disagreeing to just disagree. Whatever makes you feel good..dude.


Gannon and (to a lesser extent) Smith needed the right system in which to thrive. That's what you're getting at here with Ben/Ryan/Freeman, etc. But the problem is that the possible system in which Tebow might perform better can't be performed at the NFL level. It's not a pro system. That's the major difference. It's one thing to simplify an offense (Alex Smith) or bring in a QB tailor made for a west-coast scheme (Gannon). It's entirely another to try to entirely overhaul an offense into a system that can't work in the NFL. Tebow's most comfortable in a spread offense out of a shotgun. He doesn't have the accuracy to run such a system and Denver doesn't have the talent. Even if they did, it's not a viable full-time NFL system. We've already covered that.

Also, is there any evidence that there's a system problem here? Does the offense look too complex?
Right system plays a role, sure. But what you're missing in all of my posts, and I don't know how, is that Tebow needs to learn ANY pro system. And there is no pro system the guy could possibly learn in a year...let alone the 2 he's been thrown into because of coaching changes & the short offseason to learn this latest offense. He wouldn't be ready for Josh McDaniels' system by now...he was a project QB AT BEST. This means he won't be ready by year 2. Apparently, agreeing on that isn't good enough for you...you expect to hear universal agreement that 6 games of tape...for a QB that was obviously a project AT BEST...is enough to determine what the guy's ceiling will be. Sometimes I think that's enough...but not enough for a guy who had a gigantic learning curve ahead of him, in my opinion.


Now you sound like you're buying into the "sabotage" conspiracy theory. It's not worth addressing. If you think John Fox or John Elway would accept losing just to prove the fans wrong or destroy someone's career, you're off your rocker.
Not sabotage at all. You make a mistake drafting a PROJECT QB, your team is hopeless already, you bring in a new coaching staff, you want a QB to fit the new coaching staff's offense, the new coaching staff has ZERO liability with the Tebow pick...so clearly you want to see if he'll be able to lead that offense but you aren't going to trim it down like you would if you HAD TO DO IT.

If he went 24-36, 289yds & 3 TDs against Detroit, I'm certain Elway & Fox would be happy & consider him for their future. But the fact that he didn't also doesn't, in my opinion, change the way he should be viewed...a project QB at best who requires a lot of work.


We have a fundamental difference of opinion here. I believe his biggest obstacle is his lack of fundamentals. I think the guy gives it his all. I think he's smart. I think he's driven. I think he'll try to walk through razor wire to win. But I don't think he can ever overcome the major technical deficiencies in his footwork and throwing motion to be a consistent NFL starter. Ive seen some guys with odd throwing motions be successful QBs. Tarkington threw an ugly ball. Billy Kilmer threw a horribly ugly ball. Bernie Kosar threw sidearmed. But they were fundamentally sound in other areas to overcome that. Tebow's not...and he's not even close. From a professional standpoint, once he takes the snap he looks like a monkey fucking a football.
I guess we do have differences here because the fundamentals is exactly what a guy who gives his all & has a good football IQ (not to be confused with football knowledge) can be taught. So either you feel he's too dumb to learn, or that he is an old dog incapable of learning new tricks, or... I'm not sure where your logic is going.

He can be taught only so many things at once. This is why you call him...ready for it...a PROJECT QB. He can't possibly correct all of his shortcomings in the amount of time he's been given to do it. He isn't a great prospect...he's a project.

And what you & others are overlooking is that bad footwork for a guy that is "thinking" where to put the ball vs a guy who "knows" where to put the ball leads to ugly play on the field. This is what happens when a QB is in over his head.

He isn't likely to ever be a solid QB in the NFL just based on the amount of things he needs to correct & improve...but you don't know that with more certainty than you did before his draft after the 6 games he's played.


Even there's a (small) chance that he could, he's not owed that chance. This is professional football and not Pop Warner. If he can't get the fundamentals down on his own, there are 100 other guys who can who are willing to take his place for the rookie minimum. That's why he was a bad pick.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Of course he isn't owed that chance & of course he was a terrible pick in the 1st round. You're arguing points that aren't being debated by anybody.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

he's an all in proposition. you either tailor your offense what he can/can't do or you can run him out of the league, which is what fox seems to be doing.

i'm convinced if he had an oc like jeff jagodzinski he could be successful. but a drop back passer he is not. at the least he could be package player like pat white was supposed to be in miami.

i hope he ends up in buffalo. gailey could do some fun stuff with him.

[molson]

Now you sound like you're buying into the "sabotage" conspiracy theory. It's not worth addressing. If you think John Fox or John Elway would accept losing just to prove the fans wrong or destroy someone's career, you're off your rocker.



It's not necessarily "sabotage", but Fox and Elway couldn't have been thrilled that the focal point of their team was a 3rd string QB, and the focal theme of the team was how stupid they were for not starting him. If he's terrible, well, that's over with. If he shows something, great. If Tim Tebow was just Brady Quinn or something, the fans wouldn't have been freaking out over him and he wouldn't be starting in this league yet. If not for the glow around him that has nothing to do with football, he'd have been a 3rd or 4th round pick backing up someone somewhere, maybe getting some playing time maybe not - but we wouldn't have a 4 page thread about him.

[bhlloy]

So basically we are all agreeing but arguing about it anyway?

[JediKooter]

I think so. It sounds like everyone agrees that he's not good, but, the reasons he's not good is the difference. *shrug*

[JonInMiddleGA]

he's an all in proposition. you either tailor your offense what he can/can't do or you can run him out of the league

Hey whaddya know, somebody finally says something in the thread that I'm pretty sure I agree with.

[RomaGoth]

So basically we are all agreeing but arguing about it anyway?

Hi bhlloy, you must be new around here. Take a look at some of the threads and if you have any questions feel free to ask...someone will argue with you about the answers.

[SteveMax58]

I'll bring up what Trent Dilfer said again. One key to showing that Tebow has no idea what is going on is where his passes miss. He doesn't miss his receivers by leading them too far. He's showing no anticipation even in the missed passes. He has no clue what he's seeing so he's looking for a WR to come open then hoping he can force the ball in before it's too late. He has zero football IQ.

What he does have is a freakish will to win and ability to inspire teammates. If you just go with a sandlot type of approach and let him do a ton of freelancing, you might something out of him, but relying on him to get even a little of the mental part of the game is going to get you nowhere.

I'm not sure what definition Dilfer is using for football IQ but I don't think thats what that means. I like Dilfer's analysis typically but that isn't telling us about Tebow's football IQ imo...it is telling us the game is over his head right now.

Missing high, missing low, missing any which way means the QB doesn't understand the plays, the defensive coverage scheme, etc. He just flat out doesn't know where to put the ball because he doesn't have enough pro style offense experience...and certainly not in the pro style offense he's been running for about a total of 3 months now.

I agree that he would have better success if they gave him more of a sandlot approach. Roll him out & let him make plays with his legs when he can't figure things out. This will make coverages more favorable for him once he starts making defenses pay a little. But he's still got so much to learn & grasp that I don't think it matters this season for him. He really needs a lot of time in the film room & working on his mechanics. So much so...that I don't honestly think he's worth the trouble for Denver. And I think Denver will agree by releasing him after the season...barring some (unrealistic) miraculous breakthroughs between now & then.

[RomaGoth]

Missing high, missing low, missing any which way means the QB doesn't understand the plays, the defensive coverage scheme, etc. He just flat out doesn't know where to put the ball because he doesn't have enough pro style offense experience...and certainly not in the pro style offense he's been running for about a total of 3 months now.

Hmmm...isn't this the definition of football IQ? Just wondering.

[SteveMax58]

Hmmm...isn't this the definition of football IQ? Just wondering.

Well, thats why I say...if thats the definition being used but thats different than the way I've usually heard it used.

I've always understood it to mean a player's understanding of the concepts of football. I guess from a pro standpoint, you could argue his is low but then, its also low for most young players regardless of position.

But I don't subscribe to the thinking Tebow doesn't understand the concepts of coverages, ball placement, route timing, etc. He just has a TON to learn in order to apply that understanding.

A bit of street smarts vs book smarts I guess. I see him as having the street smarts (in a football sense), but not enough book smarts to apply it.

[SteveMax58]

Not at all. Missing by leading a guy too far is a timing issue but at least it's more likely that the read is correct. Missing behind guys means you're probably not seeing where the route is going to come open quickly enough. Missing high/low is also indicative of probably not seeing where the route is going to come open and either throwing off the back foot (low) or not following through on the release point (high). It just seems like the misses he has that are behind, low, high, are extreme misses, not 6-12" here or there. There's nothing about what he's doing that looks like he's going through a progression, identifying where the holes in a defense are, and getting rid of the ball on time. That's all football IQ and he doesn't appear to have any at this point.

Yeah, I guess I just call that experience & mechanics. Maybe I'm using the term incorrectly, though.

But to me, what Dilfer is describing (no matter the definition) is extremely correctable with reps, film, & time. Not that he'll get all of those, mind you, but correctable things any QB goes through in their first season. He may look worse than some of recent memory...but that's because his starting point was so much further behind.

I can recall many games where I began questioning Eli's abilities to learn & grasp the idea of cover 2. Hell, I still do at times.

[RomaGoth]

Well, thats why I say...if thats the definition being used but thats different than the way I've usually heard it used.

I've always understood it to mean a player's understanding of the concepts of football. I guess from a pro standpoint, you could argue his is low but then, its also low for most young players regardless of position.

But I don't subscribe to the thinking Tebow doesn't understand the concepts of coverages, ball placement, route timing, etc. He just has a TON to learn in order to apply that understanding.

A bit of street smarts vs book smarts I guess. I see him as having the street smarts (in a football sense), but not enough book smarts to apply it.

If you compare Tebow to Newton, what do you get? Both are young guys just out of college (if anything, Newton is at a disadvantage in that he is a rookie while Tebow has a year and a lot of NFL practices under his belt). I have doubts that Newton played a pro-style offense at Auburn just as Tebow didn't at Florida.

The difference here is that Cam Newton clearly has football IQ, while Tebow...well, he doesn't.

[RainMaker]

Newton has an offensive line and an elite wide receiver too. They aren't in the same league, but Newton doesn't pull this off in Denver with that slop.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

this speaks to my biggest pet peeve in sports which is system over parts. it's like someone hands you a rifle and you say,' it's a rocket launcher.'
'no, it's a rifle.'
'well, i'm gonna make it a rocket launcher.'
'uh, good luck with that.'

you go to war with the army you've got... yada yada

[SteveMax58]

The difference here is that Cam Newton clearly has football IQ, while Tebow...well, he doesn't.

Well, Cam is a much better prospect altogether than Tebow, and has more upside. So I guess if you want to say he has better football IQ, I don't think I'd argue with that but I also wouldn't say Cam has proven he will be a great starting QB either.

[cuervo72]

So for Tebow to succeed, someone is going to have to take a gamble on basically running a college offense built specifically for him - in essence making him your franchise player. That's a lot to ask of a coach/GM who isn't making a last ditch effort to save his job. Because if that doesn't work, there will probably be some firings.

[RainMaker]

So for Tebow to succeed, someone is going to have to take a gamble on basically running a college offense built specifically for him - in essence making him your franchise player. That's a lot to ask of a coach/GM who isn't making a last ditch effort to save his job. Because if that doesn't work, there will probably be some firings.

A college offense won't work in the NFL. Tebow either needs to adjust to the NFL game or be an afterthought. That doesn't mean you can't pepper in some running plays and utilize his athleticism, but he will still need to be able to operate an NFL offense.

[cuervo72]

A college offense won't work in the NFL. Tebow either needs to adjust to the NFL game or be an afterthought. That doesn't mean you can't pepper in some running plays and utilize his athleticism, but he will still need to be able to operate an NFL offense.

Hey, that's my belief too. But it seems that some think he's just SO GOOD that he can make an unworkable offense workable. If he's not given that opportunity then he was never given a chance...of course he'll never be given that opportunity! So he'll never succeed and it will be the NFL establishment's fault! Basically, this argument will never be put to rest. :)

[SteveMax58]

Hey, that's my belief too. But it seems that some think he's just SO GOOD that he can make an unworkable offense workable. If he's not given that opportunity then he was never given a chance...of course he'll never be given that opportunity! So he'll never succeed and it will be the NFL establishment's fault! Basically, this argument will never be put to rest. :)
Who is saying that?

[bbgunn]

Tebow to the CFL! Hamilton Tiger-Cats, baby!!!!

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

when he came out every talking head said the same thing. he's gonna need an hc/oc that believes in him and will let him develop.

ffwd 2 years, exact opposite happens, and the same talking heads are shitting themselves. 'he's an abomination!!!' well, no durr.

a running team, decent line. play action roll outs- cut the field in half etc. etc.

basically what the 49ers have done with smith.

[RainMaker]

The worst thing to happen to him was being a 1st round pick. If he had been a 6th or 7th rounder and behind some a good QB, he'd be able to develop. Would have been a perfect pick for a team like Pittsburgh.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

I still say the Broncos needed a middle LB & took one of the best available... the problem is they think he's a QB,

[RomaGoth]

Newton has an offensive line and an elite wide receiver too. They aren't in the same league, but Newton doesn't pull this off in Denver with that slop.

I am fairly certain that a better offensive line and/or elite wide receiver would not make Tim Tebow better. The guy works hard, is supposedly a great person, and is very competitive. But anyone who has seen him take NFL snaps can clearly see that he is in way over his head. As others here have already stated, perhaps he should be used as an H-back or something, because a starting NFL QB he is not.

[gstelmack]

Carolina's "Elite" wide receiver isn't all that elite anymore. He's still pretty good, but not "elite". The common denominator here is that Denver has the same head coach who turned Steve Smith and the rest of this offense into "well below average".

[Radii]

I don't much care about Tebow either way but Steve Smith was in a major decline the last two years in Carolina, this offseason it was assumed the Panthers would trade him and many fans thought it was the right time to do so. Didn't Denver have the leading WR in the NFL last season and give him away for a 5th round pick this year?

[gkb]

God I wish Tebow was on a different team. Thanks Josh...bastard.

[Apathetic Lurker]

he has a 4-1 td to int ratio..That means he's doing something right somewhere

[RomaGoth]

he has a 4-1 td to int ratio..That means he's doing something right somewhere

2 of those 4 td's were against the Miami Dolphins. He also has 2 fumbles and a whopping 46.1% completion percentage.

[bronconick]

I don't much care about Tebow either way but Steve Smith was in a major decline the last two years in Carolina, this offseason it was assumed the Panthers would trade him and many fans thought it was the right time to do so. Didn't Denver have the leading WR in the NFL last season and give him away for a 5th round pick this year?

They figured he'd be a locker room cancer because he's a free agent at the end of the year and wanted to rack up some stats this year that weren't going to come with Tebow throwing the ball behind him all game long.

[Pumpy Tudors]

If the Pittsburgh Power AFL team signs Tim Tebow within the next two years, I'm going to kill myself. I just wanted to get that out there right now.

[RomaGoth]

If the Pittsburgh Power AFL team signs Tim Tebow within the next two years, I'm going to kill myself. I just wanted to get that out there right now.

You would be missed.

[JonInMiddleGA]

because a starting NFL QB in a traditional offense he is not.

Fixed that for you, or at least provided a version that I don't think too many people would disagree with.

I believe at least a quarter of the teams in the NFL, including the one he's on, would be well-served by building an offense (including personnel) around him however.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I think the Broncos should have him play ironman football. I know the Broncos haven't made a clean tackle since 2001, so he might help them on defense.

[RomaGoth]

Fixed that for you, or at least provided a version that I don't think too many people would disagree with.

I believe at least a quarter of the teams in the NFL, including the one he's on, would be well-served by building an offense (including personnel) around him however.

I stand by my original comment. This guy is not a starting NFL QB, and as mentioned by other people here, the style of offense he is best suited for is not feasible at the NFL level. I think it is time for some people to take off their Tebow goggles and see what is clearly not there....

[Apathetic Lurker]

2 of those 4 td's were against the Miami Dolphins. He also has 2 fumbles and a whopping 46.1% completion percentage.

He reminds me of those wonderful qb's from the 40-70's, fumbles, low completion percentages etc....

Miamis D is not that horrible. If it was against the Pats i'd be more inclined to agree that his td's were a fluke.

Personally I'm not a fan of his style or the team but want to see what he can do the rest of the year

I think he might be the the second coming of Bobby Douglass

Joe Namath had something like 50% completion rating. Chad Pennington had over 65% Who would you rather have leading your team? Comp % is a bit overrated...

[RomaGoth]

Just by comparison, take a look at some other QB's in the NFL that are in their 1st or 2nd year in the league (these are just basic stats):

Name (Team)-round/pick/year) comp % with TD's and Int's (2011 stats)

Andy Dalton (Cincinnati-2/35/2011) 62.4% with 9 TD's and 7 Int's
Cam Newton (Carolina-1/1/2011) 60.6% with 11 TD's and 9 Int's
Colt McCoy (Cleveland-3/85/2010) 57.0% with 9 TD's and 5 Int's
Sam Bradford (St. Louis-1/1/2010) 53.15 with 3 TD's and 2 Int's
Christian Ponder (Minnesota-1/12/2011) 51.9% with 3 TD's and 2 Int's
Tim Tebow (Denver-1/25/2010) 46.1% with 4 TD's and 1 Int
Blaine Gabbert (Jacksonville-1/10/2011) 45.7% with with 5 TD's and 4 Int's

[Apathetic Lurker]

Hes right there with Bradford, Ponder and Gabbert... Realistically, I won't know how we can grade them for about 5 years

[Atocep]

Miamis D is not that horrible. If it was against the Pats i'd be more inclined to agree that his td's were a fluke.


Miami's pass defense is arguably the worst in the NFL. Football Outsiders has them 31st against the pass, opponents have a QB rating of 103.1 against them, they're allowing 8.1 yards per attempt, and they've allowed 14 tds with just 2 Ints this season.

They're terrible.

[gkb]

Miami's pass defense is arguably the worst in the NFL. Football Outsiders has them 31st against the pass, opponents have a QB rating of 103.1 against them, they're allowing 8.1 yards per attempt, and they've allowed 14 tds with just 2 Ints this season.

They're terrible.

How dare you use actual statistics to make your argument! You take that back mister!

If there's one thing that's become obvious in Denver, it's that you do NOT bring facts to the table with regards to Tebow.

[DougW]

Lions disrespected Tebows faith. (http://m.espn.go.com/wireless/story?storyId=7177658&i=FB&w=1b5ve&wjb)

[Apathetic Lurker]

Miami's pass defense is arguably the worst in the NFL. Football Outsiders has them 31st against the pass, opponents have a QB rating of 103.1 against them, they're allowing 8.1 yards per attempt, and they've allowed 14 tds with just 2 Ints this season.

They're terrible.

I was going overall yardage...Miamis is 23rd....NE is last..

[revrew]

Honest evaluation by a Bronco fan:

1. Tebow's pocket problems are partly related to the offensive scheme employed by the Broncos. Watching the DET game, too often receivers were still running double-cut routes down the field when the Lions were already in the backfield. At other times, there was only 1 or 2 WRs in the pattern at all. Yes, Tebow was holding the ball too long, but who was he supposed to throw to? The coaching staff should be flogged for not running more quick routes and screens. (Although Tebow's accuracy problems were revealed when he did try quick slants, but still: No excuse for your QB to be under that much pressure all game without making adjustments. Better incompletes than sacks). And play-action passes in the 4th quarter? Would anyone in the stadium, much less on the field, bite on a play-action? Just less time for Tebow to look downfield. The play-action passes were irrefutable proof the coaching staff was inflexible in their approach to the game, and likely the QB himself.

2. Tebow's footwork is atrocious. He never sets and throws from the same spot, but is jump-tossing, skipping up to throw, not driving his front foot, etc. No wonder he's not accurate and has poor timing on the short-mid routes. We'll never know if he's accurate enough to be an NFL quarterback until someone fixes that footwork. And Tebow's arm is plenty strong, but again with that footwork, the ball will never get the distance it needs on the long passes either. It's fundamental stuff.

Now, John Gruden in a pre-draft workout/interview with Tebow (watch it if you can find it), did more to fix Tebow's footwork in 5 minutes than John Fox's staff has done all year. In the interview, he's sprinting back, setting his feet, firing. Would love to see that even once in a Bronco uniform. I'd have to watch tape to see if McD helped correct Tebow's footwork (and thus explaining his better success rate last season), but it's clear Tebow has regressed and the current staff hasn't made the same impression Gruden did.

Finally, speculation:
The game plan is idiotic
The kid's #1 need the staff is failing to address
The kid's #1 receiver gets traded away, for a 5th rounder

I don't know if Tebow can be an NFL QB or not, but it's clear the Broncos management ISN'T doing what they can to make him one. Could this be on purpose?

[Bigsmooth]

Could this be on purpose?
Uh yeah...seems pretty clear. No NFL player will intentionally try to lose but that Front Office has really put the players in an impossible situation. Well done, I say.

[cuervo72]

Hoge was on the DC Sports Reporters today talking about Tebow. Just a *touch* critical of his skills.

ESPN 980 Audio Vault - Play Now (http://www.stationcaster.com/player_skinned.php?s=65&c=426&f=258151)

[Wolfpack]

Honest evaluation by a Bronco fan:

1. Tebow's pocket problems are partly related to the offensive scheme employed by the Broncos. Watching the DET game, too often receivers were still running double-cut routes down the field when the Lions were already in the backfield. At other times, there was only 1 or 2 WRs in the pattern at all. Yes, Tebow was holding the ball too long, but who was he supposed to throw to? The coaching staff should be flogged for not running more quick routes and screens. (Although Tebow's accuracy problems were revealed when he did try quick slants, but still: No excuse for your QB to be under that much pressure all game without making adjustments. Better incompletes than sacks). And play-action passes in the 4th quarter? Would anyone in the stadium, much less on the field, bite on a play-action? Just less time for Tebow to look downfield. The play-action passes were irrefutable proof the coaching staff was inflexible in their approach to the game, and likely the QB himself.

2. Tebow's footwork is atrocious. He never sets and throws from the same spot, but is jump-tossing, skipping up to throw, not driving his front foot, etc. No wonder he's not accurate and has poor timing on the short-mid routes. We'll never know if he's accurate enough to be an NFL quarterback until someone fixes that footwork. And Tebow's arm is plenty strong, but again with that footwork, the ball will never get the distance it needs on the long passes either. It's fundamental stuff.

Now, John Gruden in a pre-draft workout/interview with Tebow (watch it if you can find it), did more to fix Tebow's footwork in 5 minutes than John Fox's staff has done all year. In the interview, he's sprinting back, setting his feet, firing. Would love to see that even once in a Bronco uniform. I'd have to watch tape to see if McD helped correct Tebow's footwork (and thus explaining his better success rate last season), but it's clear Tebow has regressed and the current staff hasn't made the same impression Gruden did.

Finally, speculation:
The game plan is idiotic
The kid's #1 need the staff is failing to address
The kid's #1 receiver gets traded away, for a 5th rounder

I don't know if Tebow can be an NFL QB or not, but it's clear the Broncos management ISN'T doing what they can to make him one. Could this be on purpose?

Fox is very much a "his guys" coach. One of the things that ultimately clinched his falling out and eventual exit from Charlotte was that he basically had Jimmy Clausen thrust upon him by the front office and pretty much fought them every step of the way on whether or not to let him play last year.

[cartman]

some great stuff in Twitter if you check out #OccupyTebow

[stevew]

I'm still scratching my head why John Fix was considered such a good head coach that he remained unemployed for like a week. Sort of Mangini redux.

[SteveMax58]

I'm still scratching my head why John Fix was considered such a good head coach that he remained unemployed for like a week. Sort of Mangini redux.

I think probably due to never having a legitimate franchise QB in Carolina and still getting to a Superbowl. But its one of those chicken/egg propositions.

If you mold a QB into performing well, OR the QB is a great talent, people think the QB is great & you are fortunate to have him.

If you don't mold the QB well, OR the QB just doesn't have it, then the QB sucks & you "did what you could".

I guess the Broncos saw the latter in Carolina. Not that I would disagree much but of course there are coordinators & the like that typically have the largest impact from a strategy standpoint.

[Butter]

I'm still scratching my head why John Fix was considered such a good head coach that he remained unemployed for like a week. Sort of Mangini redux.

I hear John Fox sucks as well.

[Rizon]

Madden trashed Tebow a bit yesterday, too. Said he'd never be another Brett Favre.

[jbergey22]

Madden trashed Tebow a bit yesterday, too. Said he'd never be another Brett Favre.

LOL

[Young Drachma]

Tebowing (http://tebowing.com/)

Think Planking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planking_(fad))

[Rizon]

Tebowing (http://tebowing.com/)

Think Planking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planking_(fad))

lmao at the horse Tebowing :lol:

[Raiders Army]

That website is awesome.

[RomaGoth]

Think Planking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planking_%28fad%29)

Never realized this was a verb....

[terpkristin]

TaTebowing - Ugliest Tattoos - Funny Tattoos (http://ugliesttattoos.failblog.org/2011/11/06/funny-tattoos-tatebowing/)

/tk

[Apathetic Lurker]

If the Pittsburgh Power AFL team signs Tim Tebow within the next two years, I'm going to kill myself. I just wanted to get that out there right now.

Tebows' joining Pumpy's bowling league ......

[Grover]

http://video.adultswim.com/carl/carls-lock-denver-broncos-vs-oakland-raiders.html

"You don't see anyone Whitehursting or Gabberting after a touchdown"

[Apathetic Lurker]

How dare that rascally Tebow beat a "real" QB led team !

[Ksyrup]

I didn't get to see any of the game since we had the Bengals game locally, but it sounds like they made the effort to put him in a number of college offense situations, and thanks to a poor run D, it paid off. He still can't survive passing under 50%, though, because you aren't going to run for 300 yards every week. Or even 150, for that matter. But I'm glad they at least made some effort to put him in situations he was comfortable with and could succeed at. And that they beat the Raiders.

[jbergey22]

The topsy turvy world of Tim Tebow.

[cuervo72]

Admittedly, that seemed like a pretty good attempt at having him run something he's well-suited for. Now, if they can do that against a team with a real coaching staff (or any semblance of organization) will be interesting. As has been pointed out though, there may not be any of those in the AFC West.

[RomaGoth]

Wouldn't the Broncos winning the AFC west be epic? :D

[JediKooter]

I watched most of the game yesterday and I have to say he needs a lot of work, but, he threw no picks (You listening Philip Rivers?) and ran through the swiss cheese Raiders run defense with no problems. He even took some good hits too. After finally getting to watch him play for more than just a couple of series, he does have an extremely slow delivery. I didn't realize how slow it was until I saw Palmer throw the ball. But hey, the kid won and that's all that matters.

[Matthean]

he threw no picks (You listening Philip Rivers?)

6 TDs and 1 INT for the year. Even if he can't throw for 50% passing, he has the presence of mind to not hurt his team.

[JediKooter]

6 TDs and 1 INT for the year. Even if he can't throw for 50% passing, he has the presence of mind to not hurt his team.

Indeed. I'm willing to forgive tipped balls that get picked or balls that were in a receivers hands and it bounced into a defenders, but, Philip really needs to pull his head out of his butt. He's making rookie type mistakes.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

yes, but what does merril hoge think? he is the ultimate arbiter of football potential.

[JonInMiddleGA]

yes, but what does merril hoge think? he is the ultimate arbiter of football potential.

Ah yes, Merril Hoge, exhibit A why giving a live mic to people with a history of head injuries isn't really always a great idea.