Obama voters - buyer's remorse?

[Kodos]

Just curious. Among my family, although we all voted for him, it seems we're for the most part disappointed in Obama as a President. I'm curious to see what percentage of people who voted for Obama wish a different candidate had won.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

By different candidate, do you mean McCain?

[Kodos]

A different choice means anyone who ran. At this point, I wish we had voted Hillary in. At least she would have a spine.

[DaddyTorgo]

Maybe you should edit your poll choices to reflect that? Can you do that even?

[albionmoonlight]

There are, of course, things that I would change. But I think that, considering the scorched earth policies of the GOP, he has managed to get a lot done.

DADT has ended. We don't torture as an official policy anymore. Health Care Reform was not perfect, but anything to get us closer to a sane system is good. Great Depression II was diverted into a Great Recession. Osama is dead and Al Queda is on the ropes.

As shitty as things are, things could still be worse.

[Kodos]

Maybe you should edit your poll choices to reflect that? Can you do that even?

I don't think I can do that.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I voted for Obama over McCain, and would do that again. But even in 2008 he wasn't my preferred candidate by a longshot.

[Kodos]

There are, of course, things that I would change. But I think that, considering the scorched earth policies of the GOP, he has managed to get a lot done.

DADT has ended. We don't torture as an official policy anymore. Health Care Reform was not perfect, but anything to get us closer to a sane system is good. Great Depression II was diverted into a Great Recession. Osama is dead and Al Queda is on the ropes.

As shitty as things are, things could still be worse.

I'll admit that he has accomplished some good things despite Republican efforts. But it seems like he has tried too hard to work with Republicans rather than push a more liberal agenda. His negotiating skills seem lacking. On health care for example, his first proposal ruled out the public option. His first proposal starts where he should be negotiating to get to in the end, rather than asking for more than he wants initially then bargaining to get to a better middle ground.

[larrymcg421]

A different choice means anyone who ran. At this point, I wish we had voted Hillary in. At least she would have a spine.

I don't buy this at all. She didn't have a spine when it was time for vote for the Iraq War or the Patriot Act. Hillary's chief strategist Mark Penn is certainly no liberal and has argued that the Dems should've moved further to the right after the midterms just like Bill Clinton did in 1994. Hilary's record shows that she is a pragmatic politician and I bet she would've governed fairly similarly to Obama.

Make no mistake about it, there is a long list of people I think would make better Presidents than Obama (with Howard Dean and Russ Feingold at the top), but Hilary certainly isn't one of them.

[DanGarion]

I don't think there are enough choices. There should be a "I voted for Obama, and don't think things would be drastically different if I voted for someone else" option.

Because that is the one I would have choose and I can't choose any other option because it doesn't fit me.

[I. J. Reilly]

I don't think there are enough choices. There should be a "I voted for Obama, and don't think things would be drastically different if I voted for someone else" option.

Because that is the one I would have choose and I can't choose any other option because it doesn't fit me.

This. Anyone with a D behind their name the last three years would have been treated the same way by the House Republicans. At times I've thought Obama was pulling his punches trying to maintain a "civil" dialogue, but in the end this hasn't been about presidential style but about GOP strategy. A strategy that has worked pretty well so far for them, just not the country.

[DanGarion]

This. Anyone with a D behind their name the last three years would have been treated the same way by the House Republicans. At times I've thought Obama was pulling his punches trying to maintain a "civil" dialogue, but in the end this hasn't been about presidential style but about GOP strategy. A strategy that has worked pretty well so far for them, just not the country.

Agreed, but I am even thinking broader. If it was a Rep, we'd probably still be in a very similar situation... IMO.

[cartman]

There are, of course, things that I would change. But I think that, considering the scorched earth policies of the GOP, he has managed to get a lot done.

DADT has ended. We don't torture as an official policy anymore. Health Care Reform was not perfect, but anything to get us closer to a sane system is good. Great Depression II was diverted into a Great Recession. Osama is dead and Al Queda is on the ropes.

As shitty as things are, things could still be worse.

Pretty much sums up my feelings as well.

[I. J. Reilly]

Agreed, but I am even thinking broader. If it was a Rep, we'd probably still be in a very similar situation... IMO.

I'm not sure about that. If the Repub's had to run on the economy in 2012 I think they would have supported a much bigger stimulus package. Who knows how much that would have cut the unemployment rate though.

[Flasch186]

The GOP wouldve supported bigger spending?! I just want to be sure I understand their stance 2.5 years ago versus today because if you're saying that with the GOP in charge, to help save the economy it's bigger spending needed yet with the DEM in charge its derail the economy through austerity, for the eventual gain at the poll booth. Is that what you're insinuating?

[Izulde]

I voted for Obama over McCain, and would do that again. But even in 2008 he wasn't my preferred candidate by a longshot.

This. I was very much a Hillary supporter.

[ISiddiqui]

I didn't vote for Obama in 2008, but I will over the current crop of Republicans (I would have had a hard choice if Christie entered the race, but I'm glad he didn't - Governors should at least finish their 1st term).

[Toddzilla]

I supported Obama 100% through the primaries and general election, but given how absolutely weak willed and spineless he's been standing up to the opposition party, I'd have supported another progressive candidate instead.

God only knows how deep in the shit we'd be if McCain had won

[Kodos]

If the Republicans could put forth someone who isn't insane, I'd consider voting for them. Not sure who that would be though... Powell?

[panerd]

Voted for Barr. At the time didn't mind Obama as the second best candidate. Much like the Nobel Prize committee I thought we would see a scaling back of the American Empire instead of a "cutback" that involved more troops in the Middle East. Also thought we might have some leadership on things like the Patriot Act and even the pipe dream of a candidate taking on the failed drug war and phony war on internet poker.

2012: Will vote for Ron Paul or Gary Johnson if they get the GOP nomination. (Obviously this won't happen) Will then vote for Ron Paul or Gary Johnson if they get the lib nomination. Final step will probably sit out instead of voting some token Libertarian candidate like Barr again.

Caveat: If some religious wacko like Perry gets the nod may actually consider a vote for Obama to save 4 years of that nonsense plus gridlock in DC is preferable to the GOP thinking they have any sort of mandate.

[Warhammer]

Obama should not have governed further left. Had he done so, the Dems would have suffered even more during the midterms. People forget, we are a center-right country. Obama was elected because he was not Bush. Most people thought McCain would be GWBII. No one wanted that.

Once Obama was elected, he governed left. DADT and Healthcare Reform are left initiatives. Plus, if you want to say that he averted a Depression, credit for that should probably go to Bush, since he was the one who got the ball rolling on that. Also, getting Bin Laden was something anyone else would have done in his place. That said, I think TARP and the bailouts have not helped the economy much, and that a harder fall would have been more painful, but would probably have been much more beneficial in the long run. I think we are headed for another recession (and have said so for the past 6 months at the least) in the near future (my prediction was/is 3rd/4th qtr of this year). Also, people want to give him credit for things that he merely followed the path laid out by Bush. The only credit there should be not stopping those policies.

The problem that Obama has, and it was the same problem Bush had, is he has no idea how to lead. Rather than probing and trying to change people's minds, he merely tried to ram it through Congress. I have seen very little of Obama getting out in front of an issue and selling the issue. He promised "Hope and change" and we have very little change and many have little to no hope.

Now, many will say that the Republicans have played hardball, that is no different than how the Democrats were in Bush's second term and similar to pre-9/11 during his first term.

What I find interesting is that Europe is having problems with financing their welfare states, yet we're heading down the same course.

[Warhammer]

If McCain had won, yes the GOP would have supported bigger spending. The vast majority of the GOP leadership is still of the big spending, but hide it off the books since illegal wars don't count, neocon variety. The only reason there's been any push against that is the original, grass roots version of the Tea Party that arose from genuine concern about the economic ramifications of current spending practices. Bush, Cheney, McCain, and Palin all have histories as big spenders. Romney, Perry and most of the current GOP crop do as well.

That's the problem. When I elect a GOP nominee, I want less spending.

[cubboyroy1826]

Wow I guess I am in the minority in thinking that the Obama years have been a train wreck, and not because of the Republicans. So if a Republican had been in office and we were at the same point with the economy etc would the majority here still have the same feelings? I doubt it. Short of catching Osama which I cannot really give him 100% credit I struggle to find anything good about the Obama administration so far. Health reform is needed but not in the Obamacare version.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

The last 12 years have been a trainwreck.

[cubboyroy1826]

I will agree with part of the Bush years being a mess as well. I actually think you could back to the Clinton years as well. The free for all in financial industry got its start back then. I was not happy with a lot of what Bush did or allowed to go on as well.

[Edward64]

Definitely Obama/Biden over McCain/Palin.

Would have seriously considered Romney if he would have pushed for real Healthcare reform (but he wouldn't have even if he had won).

I think Obama has done pretty well foreign policy wise all things considering and no one jokes about being weak and lobbing over cruise/tomahawk missles anymore (ala Clinton/Gore era).

Economy wise, no doubt it sucks. Although he doesn't get all the blame this malaise and second dip happened on his watch. However, I am not convinced any other candidate could have done better.

[cubboyroy1826]

Being a Dem and saying you have been happy with Obamas time in office is like being a Repub and saying you were happy with the George W years. No way you can honestly say either one. Now I can understand if you still would prefer Obama over the Republican because this is just a party statement. I would have preferred GW over the Dem options even though I was not happy with a lot of what went on.

[digamma]

There are, of course, things that I would change. But I think that, considering the scorched earth policies of the GOP, he has managed to get a lot done.

DADT has ended. We don't torture as an official policy anymore. Health Care Reform was not perfect, but anything to get us closer to a sane system is good. Great Depression II was diverted into a Great Recession. Osama is dead and Al Queda is on the ropes.

As shitty as things are, things could still be worse.

Add the supreme court nominees to this and it gets a big plus one from me.

[JediKooter]

Given the same choices, I'd vote for Obama.

I can't really blame Obama for all the economic woes that we have today. The problem is too multifaced to blame it on one person or party. Though a good portion of the blame, in my opinion, can be laid in the republicans lap for having a "Make Obama a one term president at all costs and damn the expense of everything else" policy. It also doesn't help that the democrats are spineless.

[SackAttack]

There are, of course, things that I would change. But I think that, considering the scorched earth policies of the GOP, he has managed to get a lot done.

DADT has ended. We don't torture as an official policy anymore. Health Care Reform was not perfect, but anything to get us closer to a sane system is good. Great Depression II was diverted into a Great Recession. Osama is dead and Al Queda is on the ropes.

As shitty as things are, things could still be worse.

The bolded part is the key for me.

The thing is, the Republicans' scorched earth policies/insanity (take your pick) haven't been about, necessarily, policy disagreement (although there's some of that). It's been about specifically "defeating Obama." That's pretty much the prism through which you can view the Republicans' decisions in the last two years.

Whether or not those decisions have also fit the party platform has been fairly well irrelevant (as you can see with the Libya thing; odd how extended foreign adventures without a formal declaration of war wasn't an issue for the eight years before he took office, huh?).

[SackAttack]

Dola,

That doesn't mean I wouldn't vote for a 'sane Republican,' if one existed and the election were held today. What it does mean is that the Republicans, in the last two years, haven't done a damn thing to make me regret my vote from 2008.

[lungs]

Voted for him in the primary, voted for him in the general, and will vote for him again.

From a personal standpoint, I wish he would've finally tackled immigration reform but it seems like that has become a wedge issue where rhetoric gets in the way of any logical compromise (guest worker program, path to citizenship, along with a BIG increase in border security). Admittedly, with unemployment where it is, a guest worker program wouldn't be all that popular. But with unemployment where it is, we are still seeing fruits and vegetables rotting in the fields in places like Georgia and Alabama that have enacted strict immigration controls because the Feds are doing nothing (which I'm fine with, so long as it doesn't happen in Wisconsin!)

[JediKooter]

Piggy backing on what Lungs said. Lets play a game. The first person to guess the answer correctly, gets 3,000 internet points.

Regarding immigration, who said this:

Rather than talking about putting up a fence, why don’t we work out some recognition of our mutual problems? Make it possible for them to come here legally with a work permit. And then, while they’re working and earning here they can pay taxes here. And then when they want to go back, they can go back. Open the borders both ways.

[cartman]

Zombie Reagan

[Dutch]

GWB

[Warhammer]

I believe that was Reagan.

I have no problem either way with immigration (we can always use lower cost labor). My problem is the half way issue we have with it. Either open the border and live with the consequences, or enforce the laws we have on the books.

[lungs]

Piggy backing on what Lungs said. Lets play a game. The first person to guess the answer correctly, gets 3,000 internet points.

Regarding immigration, who said this:

Rather than talking about putting up a fence, why don’t we work out some recognition of our mutual problems? Make it possible for them to come here legally with a work permit. And then, while they’re working and earning here they can pay taxes here. And then when they want to go back, they can go back. Open the borders both ways.

Dick Cheney? I dunno, I know immigration was one area that I really lined up well with W on. And I think Rick Perry is reasonable on it too. Texans have a good understanding of a large Hispanic population. My grandparents used to winter in the Rio Grande Valley and the second generation Mexican immigrants have really done well. And I see it with second generation Mexicans even here in Wisconsin. They speak English, go to school and act as American as you and I. Same as my Grandmother that grew up speaking German and went to a German language school (where they also learned English and so do the Mexican kids today)

[JediKooter]

Zombie Reagan

Close. It was pre zombie Reagan. But, I think that qualifies for the 3,000 internet points since they are of the same flesh.

GWB

No. But his dad said this:

"Look, I’d like to see something done about the illegal alien problem that would be so sensitive and so understanding about labor needs and human needs that that problem wouldn’t come up. But today, if those people are here, I would reluctantly say I think they would get whatever it is, you know, that society is giving to their neighbors. But the problem has to be solved. The problem has to be solved. Because, as we have made illegal some kinds of labor that I’d like to see legal, we’re doing two things, we’re creating a whole society of really honorable, decent, family-loving people that are in violation of the law and secondly we’re exacerbating relations with Mexico. [...] If they’re living here, I don’t want to see six and eight year old kids being made totally uneducated and made to feel like they’re living totally outside the law. These are good people, strong people."


Both quotes were from the same 1980 GOP debate. Don't exactly know which one though.

[lungs]

I do think the parties kind of split when immigration gets brought up. There are xenophobic elements in both parties. Republicans play on the immigrants are criminals angle while Democrats use the immigrants steal your jobs and drive down wages angle. An odd coalition but they've done a good job at blocking anything and everything from getting done.

[JediKooter]

I do think the parties kind of split when immigration gets brought up. There are xenophobic elements in both parties. Republicans play on the immigrants are criminals angle while Democrats use the immigrants steal your jobs and drive down wages angle. An odd coalition but they've done a good job at blocking anything and everything from getting done.

It is weird indeed. I guess the reason that immigrant workers don't really bother me is, I've known some (granted small sample size) and all they wanted was a better life for them and their families. And, I don't really see anyone fighting each other to get those farm worker jobs, even in this down economy or see high school kids complaining that all the summer jobs picking tomatoes are taken by illegals.

[Raiders Army]

Well, Obama has certainly set himself up for success in the future past his presidential reign. He has already won the Nobel Peace Prize. Kudos to him.

[lungs]

Didn't mean to turn this into a immigration thread, but I think it's one area Obama could've found consensus across aisles.... but obviously the economic situation kind of sucked the life out of that idea.

Just kind of sucks for me, having to work in a grey area of the law all the time. For those that don't know, I employ Hispanics on my farm. They all turn in proper documentation to me that I know is likely fake. But I turn that all in to the government, and they do nothing at all. Counterfeit documentation is REALLY good, and almost impossible to distinguish.

Total number of Americans to stop by looking for work in the past few years: 2

[JediKooter]

Total number of Americans to stop by looking for work in the past few years: 2

Out of curiosity, how many eastern europeans?

[lungs]

Out of curiosity, how many eastern europeans?

Zero, we used to employ Russians during the 1990's but the visas dried up after 9/11 and almost all Eastern Europeans in the area work in tourism (Wisconsin Dells).

FWIW our crew that deals with crops is 100% American as Americans absolutely LOVE driving heavy machinery. It's getting people to help me on my end dealing specifically with cows. A lot of guys I hire actually come from farms in Mexico and Nicaragua and/or use their experience from working for me and start farms there.

[JediKooter]

Zero, we used to employ Russians during the 1990's but the visas dried up after 9/11 and almost all Eastern Europeans in the area work in tourism (Wisconsin Dells).

FWIW our crew that deals with crops is 100% American as Americans absolutely LOVE driving heavy machinery. It's getting people to help me on my end dealing specifically with cows. A lot of guys I hire actually come from farms in Mexico and Nicaragua and/or use their experience from working for me and start farms there.

Ahhhh ok. I talked to a pistachio farmer from Fresno a couple of years ago and he was telling me the big influx of workers was from eastern europe. Looks like that has changed then.

Come on. Red necks love driving big noisy things. :D

[lungs]

Come on. Red necks love driving big noisy things. :D

Oh, they do for sure! They don't like being abused by animals though! (and in turn are more likely to abuse them back)

[JonInMiddleGA]

like being a Repub and saying you were happy with the George W years.

I was pretty darned happy with his performance in the first term, does that count?

[TroyF]

I did not vote for Obama. (nor McCain)

I think this is a train wreck. We had health care reform we can't pay for. His stimulus package worked miserably anfd now he wants to replicate it in the new jobs bill. Him (along with most other people) blame the Republicans scorched earth policy without taking into account it's the same damned strategy the deems hav used for 8 years now. (Anyone but Bush, right?)

I fully understand he came into a tough situation, but I really don't see anything to indicate that situation is any better. Is that really too much to expect? At the time of his election, dems controlled the house (256-178) and the senate (55-41-2). Bush never held that type of majority in either section.

I don't think GW was great, good, or even average. But o pretend the Republicans arethe only ones who play dirty pool is more than disingenuous. Just my opinion for what it is worth.

[JPhillips]

Him (along with most other people) blame the Republicans scorched earth policy without taking into account it's the same damned strategy the deems hav used for 8 years now. (Anyone but Bush, right?)


I just want to focus on this portion. What the Dems did during Bush was child's play compared to the GOP during Obama. The GOP has made the filibuster routine requiring a sixty vote majority on every important piece of legislation. If the Dems had done the same thing the Bush tax cuts, NCLB, AUMF, and a host of smaller bills would not have become law. Dems often voted against Bush, but they rarely invoked cloture.

The GOP has stated openly that they will not help Obama get any legislative wins. Again, if the Dems had done the same thing nothing would have passed under Bush. Instead, they allowed majority votes to carry most legislation.

The GOP has blocked a much higher percentage of federal court appointments.

The GOP has blocked a much higher percentage of executive positions. This includes the CFPB head that they won't even consider until Obama agrees to gut the law that created the position.

The opposition party always opposes, but whether you agree with the tactics or not, you have to face the fact the this level of obstruction is greater than any president has faced since secession.

[molson]

The opposition party always opposes, but whether you agree with the tactics or not, you have to face the fact the this level of obstruction is greater than any president has faced since secession.

And you don't think that has ANYTHING to do with Obama's leadership? If I recall, W. wasn't too popular with the opposition. Nor was Clinton. Are Dems just more concerned about "playing fair" than their policies?

To the extent that blame is fair and the reality, it's still going to be a tired card to play to the moderates. What's the campaign message going to be in 2012? Hope is out the window. Change isn't going to happen. Obama's supporters now acknowledge, out loud - "hey, our guy can't really do anything". However we characterize "blame", that's not going to get people excited to go out to the polls. I guess, "hey, I'm better than the other guy" will have to suffice (and fortunately for Obama, that may be enough in 2012). I mean, that's it, right, the best "hope" he can offer is a check on Republican legislation? We are a LONG way from the optimism of 2008 where the Dems have now just apparently shrugged their shoulders and have given up. I mean really - are the Republicans THAT brilliant and amazing to crack this code to where the Dems are just ineffective forever? I don't believe it. I think the right Dem leader could negotiate with the Republicans, or crush them.

Edit: Just as a example on the leadership thing, something I've seen Dems criticize Obama for - how in the world did he negotiate to extend the Bush tax cuts in 2010 AND end up in the debt limit crisis a year later where he was forced to give up the farm again? He was a huge loser on both of those negotiations. Why not resolve the debt limit issue back when he had that bigger chip? (It's possible that he didn't realize the debt limit was such a big deal I guess, having campaigned to not ever raise just two years earlier).

[JPhillips]

I don't know how many times I need to say that I've been disappointed with Obama before it counts. However, that doesn't change the fact that the GOP has thrown norms out the window and decided to press for every advantage they can get regardless of the damage to institutions. If the Dems weren't so spineless I'd expect them to do the same thing. Regardless of who does it, a parliamentary approach in a non-parliamentary system is bad for the nation. Our government can only function if both sides agree that there are some tactics better left on the sidelines.

[molson]

It's just been an amazing 3-three transition, from election night 2008, where there was a serious discussion here about whether the Republicans were still a viable national party, to today, where at least to some degree Republican tactics are being used to excuse the largely unfulfilled Obama potential (fairly or unfairly, the point is - that would just be an unthinkable sentiment in 2008). I think if we could have looked into the future on election night 2008 and see where we've gotten today, a lot more people would predict buyer's remorse (and probably a desire to draft someone else to run for the Dems in 2012).

Edit: But maybe it's like Obama and the Dems have kind of gone through this frustration TOGETHER, so they're still kind of on the same team against a common enemy. Surely, the last three years has killed a lot of youthful idealism. Which is kind of too bad. We'll never know if different leadership could have taken that kind of head start, that kind of liberal good will, to the next level. When will the next chance like that come? If all or most of this is due to Republican strategy, then hey, they're very effective - a hell of a lot more so than people were giving them credit for in '08, that's for sure. But if it's more failure out the executive branch, than that's a historic, catastrophic level of failure that we're not really appreciating at the moment.

[molson]

Dola - it is also amazing that the Republicans can spend these three years with the #1 priority of neutering Obama and pushing him out (and being SO successful at it that Dems openly acknowledge that their guy just can't do what they'd like him to because of the Republicans - the same party who just three years ago were characterized as a dying fringe party), and then, we get closer to 2012, with this plan working to perfection.....and THIS is the crop of Republicans we get running for president....Plan A, nice work, Plan B, not so much.

[Mustang]

Plan A, nice work, Plan B, not so much.

The underwear Gnomes plan...

Step 1 - Discredit Obama
Step 2 - ?
Step 3 - Regain White House