Jerry Sandusky thread

[dawgfan]

Jerry Sandusky story (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news?slug=ap-pennstateex-coach-allegations)

Figured this story deserves a thread of its own.

One thing that sticks out to me - he retired in '99 at age 55? I'm curious to hear from Penn State fans what the story was at the time - seems a bit odd for an assistant football coach to retire that early unless he was claiming some kind of health-issue or family matter. Assistants in those days didn't make that much - he probably on just started clearing 6 figures in the last few years of his career - so I'm guessing he didn't retire with a huge amount of money socked away.

In light of what's been alleged, it natural to wonder if his retirement wasn't actually him getting pushed out.

My father-in-law is a huge, huge Penn State fan, and for his sake I sure hope Paterno is clear in all of this.

[RainMaker]

Paterno does not seem clean in this. A graduate assistant told him in 2002 he saw Sandusky raping a child in the PSU locker room. Paterno never notified the police and even allowed Sandusky to bring another 11 year old (who Sandusky was also raping) to multiple practices in 2007.

If these prove to be true, Paterno should be fired immediately and never allowed back on the Penn State campus again.

[cartman]

I also wonder if the Penn State admins knew this info was coming out, and downplayed JoePa's 409th win. It was a pretty low key, considering he just became the all time winning-est Div. 1 college football coach.

[EagleFan]

There is a special place in hell for that man. Hopefully someone sends him there sooner rather then later. Anyone that does this should get a bullet between the eyes.

[Matthean]

Nice timing of a bye week as well.

[dawgfan]

Paterno does not seem clean in this. A graduate assistant told him in 2002 he saw Sandusky raping a child in the PSU locker room. Paterno never notified the police and even allowed Sandusky to bring another 11 year old (who Sandusky was also raping) to multiple practices in 2007.

If these prove to be true, Paterno should be fired immediately and never allowed back on the Penn State campus again.
Yeah, what worries me in this is that Paterno didn't seem to push the info he got far enough. As well, you have to wonder if this wasn't the first time he had an inkling of what may have been going on.

[EagleFan]

I seriously hope Paterno didn't drop the ball on this. Not a huge fan of his but he's still a legend that you don't want to see fall like that.

[DeToxRox]

Could the NCAA hit PSU for LOIC? It seems unlikely but if anything deserves LOIC I'd wager it's this.

[EagleFan]

LOIC?

[DeToxRox]

LOIC?

Lack of Institutional Control.

[cartman]

Lack of institutional control

[Kodos]

Sickening story. Maybe Sandusky will do everyone a favor and kill himself.

[bhlloy]

I'm guessing the NCAA won't have a leg to stand on here, I can't imagine they have a statute they can charge them with.

I'm guessing JoePa and the AD get quietly ushered out at the next possible opportunity, Penn State takes their lumps in court and we all try to pretend as much as possible that this never happened. As disgusting and unpalatable as that might be.

[DeToxRox]

I'm guessing the NCAA won't have a leg to stand on here, I can't imagine they have a statute they can charge them with.

I'm guessing JoePa and the AD get quietly ushered out at the next possible opportunity, Penn State takes their lumps in court and we all try to pretend as much as possible that this never happened. As disgusting and unpalatable as that might be.

Yeah, the more I think about it the more improbable it seems that the NCAA could get involved. Regardless, this could haunt the program for quite a long time. While I don't believe Urban Meyer is a realistic candidate to replace JoePa, I cannot see him wanting to go into this potential mess now. What a black cloud over the university.

[RainMaker]

Chill on the NCAA part. A player didn't do the horrible act of selling their jersey. A university just covered up and even aided in the systematic rape of children.

[RainMaker]

I'm guessing JoePa and the AD get quietly ushered out at the next possible opportunity, Penn State takes their lumps in court and we all try to pretend as much as possible that this never happened. As disgusting and unpalatable as that might be.

Not sure how the AD gets quietly ushered out. He has been arrested for perjury and failure to report the sexual assault of a child.

[Ksyrup]

I'm guessing JoePa and the AD get quietly ushered out at the next possible opportunity

I don't know about Paterno, but the Prez issued a statement backing both the guys charged, aside from Sandusky. That's not quiet. Speculation on twitter among the writers is maybe it went all the way up the chain, so he is backing them because his ass is on the line, too.

As far as downplaying Paterno's 409th win, I think that has more to do with the fact that Paterno is little more than a spectator right now, and I've even read some stuff suggesting he shouldn't be credited with any wins this year. His role and lack of involvement in any of the game day stuff does bring up the question of at what point is a coach not really a coach. I mean, even at the end, Bowden was still on the sidelines and appeared to be involved in major decisions (going for it on 4th downs, etc.).

[RedKingGold]

As a Penn State fan, I'm very saddened by this. I always thought Sandusky's timing of his retirement seemed odd, and it was a little surprising he wasn't lured by other schools for coaching positions.

Sadly, I think we've just scratched the surface. I think enough will be uncovered that the entire athletic department will, and should, lose their jobs over this.

[CraigSca]

Interesting. I quote this from the ESPN article: "Longtime head coach Joe Paterno, who has more victories than any coach in the history of Division I football, was not charged, authorities said, and the grand jury report did not appear to implicate him in wrongdoing. It said that when Paterno first learned of one report of abuse, he immediately reported it to Curley, but Sandusky was no longer coaching at the time and it's not clear whether Paterno followed up with Curley."

The way it's phrased, it sounds like Paterno immediately reported this upon hearing about the abuse. Upon closer inspection, the "first learned of one report of abuse" may imply that he had heard about the abuse earlier.

[RomaGoth]

This is a truly disgusting story. The idea that an entire university staff, from a janitor to the school president, could hide something like this just makes me want to vomit. No way does Paterno NOT know about this shit, he has been running the show at Penn State since the Civil War.

Makes me wonder how much of this is going on/has gone on at other schools, all in the name of college athletics.

[RainMaker]

Interesting. I quote this from the ESPN article: "Longtime head coach Joe Paterno, who has more victories than any coach in the history of Division I football, was not charged, authorities said, and the grand jury report did not appear to implicate him in wrongdoing. It said that when Paterno first learned of one report of abuse, he immediately reported it to Curley, but Sandusky was no longer coaching at the time and it's not clear whether Paterno followed up with Curley."

The way it's phrased, it sounds like Paterno immediately reported this upon hearing about the abuse. Upon closer inspection, the "first learned of one report of abuse" may imply that he had heard about the abuse earlier.

Sandusky was investigated in 1998 for a similar incident. Everyone on the PSU staff knew about this.

Paterno was also told by the graduate assistant that he had seen anal sex occur in the shower between Sandusky and the child. The graduate assistant was incredibly upset and told this to Paterno at Paterno's home.

[bob]

You know what I don't get. Let's say you see something like this, and you take it to your boss like you think you should. And they do nothing about it. How can you not bring it up to someone else?

[RedKingGold]

You know what I don't get. Let's say you see something like this, and you take it to your boss like you think you should. And they do nothing about it. How can you not bring it up to someone else?

This. I believe Paterno may have followed the law - state reporting laws usually require employees only to report to their immediate supervisor to escape legal culpability - but it sounds a lot like Paterno broke many moral and ethical rules by keeping silent with the knowledge he apparently had for over ten years.

[DeToxRox]

Pretty crazy that Sandusky was bringing this kid to PSU practices .. in 2007 and JoePa allowed it.

[Julio Riddols]

This sounds like some Law and Order SVU shit here.. Jesus.

[bhlloy]

You know what I don't get. Let's say you see something like this, and you take it to your boss like you think you should. And they do nothing about it. How can you not bring it up to someone else?

This +2. Paterno might be in the clear legally, but that doesn't mean he's not a piece of shit if the story is as currently reported.

"Hey, what happened with our former defensive co-ordinator who we caught having sex with an 11 old on our premises"
"uh, oh we told the police and they didn't care. honestly"
"okie dokie, sounds good"

Really? I can't imagine knowing about something like this and not reporting it. WTF from a guy who was supposed to be as stand up as they come.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I also think that the whole concept of knowing about or even suspecting child abuse and actually going outside the organization or family, to police, is like this brand new idea that our generation made up.

Taken as an observation unrelated to this incident (i.e. I haven't read enough on this case to comment it on it at this point), I'd say you're pretty close to right.

I'd even say it's really something that's only been true for a portion of "our generation", depending on your generation of course.

[Autumn]

I don't care if the guy was from Abraham Lincoln's generation. If anyone knew that this guy had raped a kid and didn't go to the police with this information I have not even a smidge of respect or sympathy for them. You don't have to be born in the 21st century to have figured that one out by now.

[molson]

I don't care if the guy was from Abraham Lincoln's generation. If anyone knew that this guy had raped a kid and didn't go to the police with this information I have not even a smidge of respect or sympathy for them. You don't have to be born in the 21st century to have figured that one out by now.

It's not that simple. It wasn't part of the culture until recently. If you contacted the police in 1930, or even 1960 and told them that some respected adult was molesting a kid they either: wouldn't believe you, tell you you have to get him to church to pray it off, or tell the boy to stop tempting him. There wouldn't be an investigation or anything. The reporter would be accused of having some ax to grind (basically where we are in some parts of the country still when it comes to child abuse, per the texas judge thread) There were no sex crimes divisions. Very few sex crime prosecutions (most of those involved poor men raping girls on in public somewhere)

Now, I'm not saying an old guy in 1997 shouldn't know better, and shouldn't be held responsible by our laws and ethics today, but this is a very different time with new rules that were not second nature for people just a few decades ago.

[JonInMiddleGA]

It's not that simple.

I'd argue that you're right but for a different reason. What you "know" and what you could offer evidence of are often two very different things.

Maybe I'm missing something but unless Paterno himself walked in on something (which I haven't seen indicated) realistically his options were probably pretty limited in terms of having any real impact.

[Autumn]

This doesn't sound like a case of some suspicious rumors. It sounds like someone walked up to Joe and said, "I saw this guy raping a kid." I repeat, I don't care what generation you're in, or what you think people will say, or what you think they will do. You don't stop until that guys is under questioning at the police station.

[Autumn]

It's not that simple. It wasn't part of the culture until recently...

Now, I'm not saying an old guy in 1997 shouldn't know better, and shouldn't be held responsible by our laws and ethics today, but this is a very different time with new rules that were not second nature for people just a few decades ago.

I understand times were different fifty years ago. But still, yes, it is that simple. Whether it's second nature, third nature, whatever, there's only one right answer here. It was the right answer when Joe Paterno was a kid, whether people admitted it or not, and it's the right answer now.

I'm faintly amused to see JiMGA arguing for moral relativism though.

[molson]

This doesn't sound like a case of some suspicious rumors. It sounds like someone walked up to Joe and said, "I saw this guy raping a kid." I repeat, I don't care what generation you're in, or what you think people will say, or what you think they will do. You don't stop until that guys is under questioning at the police station.

It's one of those things where everyone living today believes they would be in the top 1% of people, morally, in previous generations. You wouldn't be prejudiced against black people, you'd support gay marriage, you wouldn't throw Christians in the pit to be eaten by lions. I mean sure, if we could take Autumn circa 2011 and send him back, that'd be the case, but if you were born then, I don't know how you can be so sure you'd be so ahead of everyone else morally. Odds are you wouldn't be. Odds are most of us wouldn't be. It's just a interesting thing to think about, I'm not saying anything about the present case. Contemporary laws should obviously apply to everyone regardless of when they were born.

Edit: I've thought about this in the past in terms of a personal family situation - a few generations ago a close family member of mine was molested, over time, by another close family member. And some point, I'm not sure when, people were suspicious, and then knew. I don't know all of the timelines, but I know no police were ever involved. That surprised me at first when I heard about it decades after the fact - the molester in question was still alive until 10 years or so ago and I knew him growing up...my family would visit his family, like normal (but just in retrospect, I was never left alone with him). Now, maybe everyone in my family generations ago that knew, or suspected, are terrible monsters for not going to the police. Fair enough. But they weren't alone. This is what happened in families in the 50s and 60s (and earlier, I'm sure) Police were not an option, either a practical sense (they wouldn't do anything), or in a family sense - it just couldn't happen. It's a well respected guy, you take care of the best you can in the family, you don't try to take down, or abandon, the family's chief bread winner. After all, its probably the victim's fault anyway, right (thinking of the time).

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm faintly amused to see JiMGA arguing for moral relativism though.

Nope, you're seeing me argue that realistically unless Paterno had pictures or video that he took himself then there's probably a better chance of him being dismissed for being senile than anyone believing him if he ran screaming to the cops claiming something this outrageous.

edit to add: And that's assuming he believed the claim in the first place.

[Autumn]

Oh I'm not at all suggesting that any of us would be different if we'd been born then. [reminds me of that hilarious Eddie Murphy bit]. I'm saying I'm not willing to give anyone a bit of sympathy in the year 2002 or 2011 or even 1997 for holding on to those ideas. He's not running the wishbone over there, right? So he's learned enough tricks over the past 50 years. He damn well should have learned that one.

And I'm also just talking generally about anyone who knew what this guy had did and didn't make sure he got taken into custody. Whoever that is, it seems like there were a whole bunch of them.

[JonInMiddleGA]

It sounds like someone walked up to Joe and said, "I saw this guy raping a kid."

How much credibility did the person walking up have? And FTR, I'm not casting aspersions on them, I'm trying to ask an honest question here.

And that's before we even rationally consider the part of the equation that weighs credibility of the accuser versus credibility of the accused (to Paterno I mean).

[Autumn]

Nope, you're seeing me argue that realistically unless Paterno had pictures or video that he took himself then there's probably a better chance of him being dismissed for being senile than anyone believing him if he ran screaming to the cops claiming something this outrageous.

edit to add: And that's assuming he believed the claim in the first place.

I think you live in a different world than I, then. Where I live allegations like this, even with nothing even remotely like an eyewitness, are taken incredibly seriously. To think that they had an eyewitness, and that people would call them senile? To me that's a bunch of bunko. It's the sort of shit abusers say to people to make them not report them.

[molson]

I've thought about this in the past in terms of a personal family situation - a few generations ago a close family member of mine was molested, over time, by another close family member. And some point, I'm not sure when, people were suspicious, and then knew. I don't know all of the timelines, but I know no police were ever involved. That surprised me at first when I heard about it decades after the fact - the molester in question was still alive until 10 years or so ago and I knew him growing up...my family would visit his family, like normal (but just in retrospect, I was never left alone with him). Now, maybe everyone in my family generations ago that knew, or suspected, are terrible monsters for not going to the police. Fair enough. But they weren't alone. This is what happened in families in the 50s and 60s (and earlier, I'm sure) Police were not an option, either a practical sense (they wouldn't do anything), or in a family sense - it just couldn't happen. It's a well respected guy, you take care of the best you can in the family, you don't try to take down, or abandon, the family's chief bread winner. After all, its probably the victim's fault anyway, right (thinking of the time).

[Autumn]

How much credibility did the person walking up have? And FTR, I'm not casting aspersions on them, I'm trying to ask an honest question here.

And that's before we even rationally consider the part of the equation that weighs credibility of the accuser versus credibility of the accused (to Paterno I mean).

Unless the guy was a known pathological liar, or this guy's arch enemy, seems to me he had enough credibility.

[molson]

Oh I'm not at all suggesting that any of us would be different if we'd been born then. [reminds me of that hilarious Eddie Murphy bit]. I'm saying I'm not willing to give anyone a bit of sympathy in the year 2002 or 2011 or even 1997 for holding on to those ideas. He's not running the wishbone over there, right? So he's learned enough tricks over the past 50 years. He damn well should have learned that one.



Ya, I'm not going to go as far as "sympathy", anyone who breaks the law in this manner can be locked up for life as far as I'm concerned....But I do kind of understand how a guy 70+ thinks about all of this differently.

[Autumn]

I understand Molson, but what does that have to do with today? I can't imagine how anyone not living in a cave would still think that police should not be involved in cases of abuse. If yo'ure talking about something in the family, yes. But what reason would an unrelated adult have for not following up on something like this in this day and age?

[JonInMiddleGA]

To think that they had an eyewitness, and that people would call them senile?

Goes back to the credibility of the alleged witness to the credibility of the accused. Reality is that it's almost certainly easier to get away with anything - much less something this heinous - proportionally with your reputation.

I don't follow a lot of Penn State internal politics, so maybe I'm overestimating the status of the assistant or something, but I'm assuming he was a pretty respected member of the staff/community. If that's the case, then to get any sort of action you're probably going to need to bring some fairly serious evidence to the table to get action that goes beyond "hey man, look, there's some people saying some pretty nasty shit about you right now. Anything you need to tell us?"

I'm not talking about right/wrong here, I'm just trying to look at it realistically. And yes, I'd say the odds of JoePa going senile are considerably higher than the odds of an accusation like this being believed or even being true.

[RainMaker]

Nope, you're seeing me argue that realistically unless Paterno had pictures or video that he took himself then there's probably a better chance of him being dismissed for being senile than anyone believing him if he ran screaming to the cops claiming something this outrageous.

edit to add: And that's assuming he believed the claim in the first place.

I don't know. He was a graduate assistant so I imagine that JoePa had some respect and trust for the guy. They are technically part of your coaching staff. So when one of those guys comes to your home distraught and tells you he saw a well-respected man within the program having sex with a child, it should cause some concern. This isn't the typical accusation.

But on top of that, JoePa knew Sandusky had a previous allegation of very similar circumstances.

He didn't do anything illegal, but I hope that when it comes to a child, and when it comes to multiple allegations (particularly from one on your own staff), it should be something you pursue harder.

[Autumn]

But Joe wouldn't be the one to be believed. He's just passing on information he was given. So his senility or believability isn't a question.

Yes, the credibility of the witness matters. But it matters in proportion to the details he gives. If he says, "I saw this guy acting funny around this kid," yes, people may not pass it on. If he says, "I saw this guy having sex with this kid," then as I say, unless the guy's a raving lunatic, this gets acted on. We've probably all seen sketchy situations that gave us a weird feeling, but we didn't feel were enough we could act on. That's a lot different than seeing someone have sex with a kid.

And that witness is the number one person who should have been pursuing this case. If the university made it seem like they were taking care of things and then didn't report anything, leaving that witness not to pursue this, I hope they get torn down.

[molson]

I understand Molson, but what does that have to do with today? I can't imagine how anyone not living in a cave would still think that police should not be involved in cases of abuse. If yo'ure talking about something in the family, yes. But what reason would an unrelated adult have for not following up on something like this in this day and age?

Ya, I might be going too far off tangent here....organizations/families though, if someone is 60+, odds are that in their past, they've dealt with rumors or knowledge of abuse (or were victims of abuse) and saw everyone around them, including authority figures make great efforts keep it quiet, make excuses for it, keep it in house. That was their lives. It's no surprise it would be their first instinct today. We are the first generation who has been effectively taught to seek outside help immediately, it's just a part of our upbringing now.

[JonInMiddleGA]

But Joe wouldn't be the one to be believed. He's just passing on information he was given. So his senility or believability isn't a question.

And he passed it along as required, correct? Without regard to credibility or anything beyond his responsibility, right? (Again, that's how I understand the situation, I could be mistaken). That seems to suggest that he didn't believe the allegation was credible enough to take to police himself, or at least that seems like a reasonable interpretation of the situation to me.

But it matters in proportion to the details he gives.

Hmm ... I might not disagree with that, but our interpretation of how that works is apparently 180 degrees from each other.

I'd be more likely to believe a respected assistant / friend (I'm guessing) is occasionally swiping a pack of copy paper from the office than I am to believe that they've committed something this heinous. Absent any suspicions of your own, unless you're convinced that you're a horrible judge of human nature yourself (and can handle the self-indictment that brings) then I'm hard pressed to imagine an allegation less believable/credible without an extraordinary amount of evidence.

And that witness is the number one person who should have been pursuing this case.

Now on this part we seem to agree.

[Izulde]

If I can play a bit of devil's advocate here, let's say the GA went and told the police. Does said GA ever have a hope of landing a job in D-I college football after that? Or does he get the reputation of a narc and someone who can't be trusted to think of the program first?

[RainMaker]

And he passed it along as required, correct? Without regard to credibility or anything beyond his responsibility, right? (Again, that's how I understand the situation, I could be mistaken). That seems to suggest that he didn't believe the allegation was credible enough to take to police himself, or at least that seems like a reasonable interpretation of the situation to me.

If he didn't believe the allegation, why not fire the grad assistant? Would you really want someone on your staff falsely accusing people of having sex with children? And remember, this isn't the first allegation against Sandusky. At some point you'd think that he'd realize that something is fishy.

To me it seems less about believing the grad assistant and more about protecting the Penn State football program.

[JonInMiddleGA]

If he didn't believe the allegation, why not fire the grad assistant?

Gone through the hassle of firing anyone lately? Most people I know would rather deal with employees taking a dump in their desk drawer than even start the process.

[RainMaker]

Gone through the hassle of firing anyone lately? Most people I know would rather deal with employees taking a dump in their desk drawer than even start the process.
I think having a guy falsely accusing people of raping children in your locker room might be worth the trouble of firing.

[Autumn]

I'd be more likely to believe a respected assistant / friend (I'm guessing) is occasionally swiping a pack of copy paper from the office than I am to believe that they've committed something this heinous. Absent any suspicions of your own, unless you're convinced that you're a horrible judge of human nature yourself (and can handle the self-indictment that brings) then I'm hard pressed to imagine an allegation less believable/credible without an extraordinary amount of evidence.

True, but my point is someone saying "I saw this guy having sex with a kid. With my eyes," is *an extraordinary amount of evidence*. I'm not sure I've ever even heard of a child abuse case like this where someone actually saw the sex occurring. There is literally not more evidence that you could have for a case of sex abuse, other than a photograph of the two having sex, which seems a rather implausible level of evidence to ask for.

If a person is unwilling to believe someone's claim of child abuse without seeing an actual photograph of it I would suggest that this person is mistaken on a very fundamental level.

[stevew]

LOIC?

Lack of intestinal control. We're talking about JoePa.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I think having a guy falsely accusing people of raping children in your locker room might be worth the trouble of firing.

At the risk of sidetracking the thread (because this is definitely a sidebar)

Did the GA run around campus saying it every five minutes to every person he saw? Or was it strictly the one visit to JoePa & that was the only reference to it? If the latter, then I'd definitely say the hassle of firing wouldn't be worth it in most cases. You just write it off to a bizarre conversation in a life that's probably filled with bizarre conversations & you hope that either the employee doesn't bring another unbelievable crazy story to you again or they move on quickly (as GA's tend to do) and aren't your problem any longer.

FTR: Above comments relate strictly to the questions about firing an employee & are fairly generic, not about the nature of the allegations the GA made.

[JonInMiddleGA]

True, but my point is someone saying "I saw this guy having sex with a kid. With my eyes," is *an extraordinary amount of evidence*.

I disagree.

Based on the pretty simple premise that I know exponentially more outright liars or even blatantly batshit crazy people than I've run into child rapists best I can figure. (Even the highest estimates of child sexual abuse wouldn't push the number that high).

[Autumn]

“Despite a powerful eyewitness statement about the sexual assault of a child, this incident was not reported to any law enforcement or child protective agency, as required by Pennsylvania law,” Kelly said.

There’s no indication that anyone at school attempted to find the boy, or follow up with the witness, she said.

Curley denied that the assistant had reported anything of a sexual nature, calling it “merely `horsing around,”’ the 23-page grand jury report said. But he also testified that he barred Sandusky from bringing children onto campus and that he advised Penn State president Graham Spanier of the matter.

The jury said Curley was lying, Kelly said, adding that it also deemed portions of Schultz’s testimony not to be credible.

Schultz told the jurors he also knew of a 1998 investigation involving sexually inappropriate behavior by Sandusky with a boy in the showers the football team used.

But despite his job overseeing campus police, he never reported the 2002 allegations to any authorities, “never sought or received a police report on the 1998 incident and never attempted to learn the identity of the child in the shower in 2002,” the jurors wrote. “No one from the university did so.”

A lot of people dropped the ball here, including, it would see, the graduate assistant and Paterno.

[Autumn]

I disagree.

Based on the pretty simple premise that I know exponentially more outright liars or even blatantly batshit crazy people than I've run into child rapists best I can figure. (Even the highest estimates of child sexual abuse wouldn't push the number that high).

Yes, and the crazy people tell lies. The child rapists rape children. Guess which one you should put an inordinate proportion of concern into?

[Autumn]

Let me just say that if Joe Paterno ever hears a rumor that someone is raping my kid in the shower, I'd like him to come tell me. Even if he's already told the athletic director.

[RainMaker]

At the risk of sidetracking the thread (because this is definitely a sidebar)

Did the GA run around campus saying it every five minutes to every person he saw? Or was it strictly the one visit to JoePa & that was the only reference to it? If the latter, then I'd definitely say the hassle of firing wouldn't be worth it in most cases. You just write it off to a bizarre conversation in a life that's probably filled with bizarre conversations & you hope that either the employee doesn't bring another unbelievable crazy story to you again or they move on quickly (as GA's tend to do) and aren't your problem any longer.

FTR: Above comments relate strictly to the questions about firing an employee & are fairly generic, not about the nature of the allegations the GA made.

I think "I saw your old coach raping a child in our locker room" goes beyond a throwaway bizarre conversation.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Guess which one you should put an inordinate proportion of concern into?

As unbelievable as the allegation seems, I'd honestly say neither. I doubt I'd have found the original allegation remotely credible &, frankly, even with everything I've read so far being painted in the worst light possible I still find it highly unlikely at best.

And I'll tell you that without the slightest hesitation and without the slight hint of anything resembling an apologetic tone.

[TwinCitiesFan]

Being a lifetime PSU fan this whole situation is really sad, I am all for being innocent until proven guilty but reading the many articles online...I would say Sandusky is toast...and a very sick individual.

As for Paterno he never witnessed any of the crimes alleged, when he was told of a 2002 incident he told the AD immediately...this is where it gets confusing because not all the information is known yet. You would think the AD at this point would report it to the police, but instead it sounds like he conducted some "in-house" investigation.

Who knows what the AD told Paterno, but if he told Paterno that the accusation was false and he handed it over to the police then Paterno would think it was being investigated. Since the AD is being charged then at some point Paterno will be on stand testifying what the AD told him...then things will get interesting.

Time will tell...

[Ksyrup]

This sounds exactly like a church situation. Will be interesting to see how far up the chain the cover-up goes.

[Autumn]

As unbelievable as the allegation seems, I'd honestly say neither. I doubt I'd have found the original allegation remotely credible &, frankly, even with everything I've read so far being painted in the worst light possible I still find it highly unlikely at best.

And I'll tell you that without the slightest hesitation and without the slight hint of anything resembling an apologetic tone.

I gotta say, it kind of bugs me all the stuff you immediately whip out the shotgun and napalm for, but if someone tells you a kid's getting raped, you're not sure you'll pursue that.

You must hang out with some odd people, if you think someone coming to your house and inventing a story about a colleague of yours raping kids seems fairly plausible.

[JonInMiddleGA]

but if someone tells you a kid's getting raped, you're not sure you'll pursue that.

Simply goes to what I find believable (or in this thread where I'm often trying to project myself into Paterno's shoes, what he'd have found believable).

If you want something more "in my voice" to play around with, you could probably extrapolate what percentage of sexual abuse allegations I believe are truth versus fiction. Hint: it isn't an exceptionally high number.

[RomaGoth]

“Despite a powerful eyewitness statement about the sexual assault of a child, this incident was not reported to any law enforcement or child protective agency, as required by Pennsylvania law,” Kelly said.

There’s no indication that anyone at school attempted to find the boy, or follow up with the witness, she said.

This is the key phrase from that story. Clearly, Paterno and the AD knew what was going on. Also clearly, they decided to cover the shit up in order to avoid embarrassment and a tarnished reputation to Penn State University.

Sick fucks and they should all be castrated.

[BillJasper]

This is the key phrase from that story. Clearly, Paterno and the AD knew what was going on. Also clearly, they decided to cover the shit up in order to avoid embarrassment and a tarnished reputation to Penn State University.

Sick fucks and they should all be castrated.

Agreed. But it probably wouldn't matter to JoePa, his stuff probably hasn't worked in forty years. :D

[King of New York]

NY Times story (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/sports/ncaafootball/former-coach-at-penn-state-is-charged-with-abuse.html?_r=1&hp)

According to this story, Sandusky met with the mother of one of the kids, with two detectives present, and confessed--how was he not arrested then and there? Were the "detectives" actually campus police?

I am also amazed that the College president has publicly defended two employees accused of perjury.

I get the feeling that this story is going to get much, much worse.

[RomaGoth]

NY Times story (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/sports/ncaafootball/former-coach-at-penn-state-is-charged-with-abuse.html?_r=1&hp)

According to this story, Sandusky met with the mother of one of the kids, with two detectives present, and confessed--how was he not arrested then and there? Were the "detectives" actually campus police?

I am also amazed that the College president has publicly defended two employees accused of perjury.

I get the feeling that this story is going to get much, much worse.

Wow. This is going to make the Cam Newton/Ohio State/University of Miami scandals look like something from the Sunday comics.

[Matthean]

Jon's thinking is the kind of thinking that led PSU into this mess.

[cartman]

(or in this thread where I'm often trying to project myself into Paterno's shoes, what he'd have found believable).


WTF? Jon is trying his hand at showing empathy? Did I miss an 'opposite day' notice or something?

[Matthean]

Were the "detectives" actually campus police?

I read it as campus police, who likely buried the info. Still, this is somebody who was raising flags in 1998 and still had kids around years after.

[JonInMiddleGA]

WTF? Jon is trying his hand at showing empathy? Did I miss an 'opposite day' notice or something?

Relax, it's just a hypothetical exercise, useful for discussion purposes only.

[miked]

I'm late to the show. Is Jon saying it's perfectly ok to ignore allegations of sexual assault of young boys on your watch because sometimes people lie? Meanwhile, if a kid is suspected of shoplifting, he should get the chair. I'm so confused here...

[BishopMVP]

I don't agree with JiMGA's assertion that Paterno shouldn't have done anything, and I do think this cover-up will get worse as more stories come out, but I am curious what people wanted from Paterno. IF the GA came to him and he reported the allegation(s) to the AD, I'm not sure what else people wanted him to do. I can see saying he himself should have contacted the police as well, but beyond that clearly the guy isn't in a position to investigate this himself - and the evidence from the NYT article suggests that police were investigating at least one of these allegations and apparently not pursuing them.

[Ksyrup]

Well the anonymous GA is no longer. It's, uh, Mike McQueary. Wow. Just effin wow.

[RedKingGold]

Wow.

[RedKingGold]

The whole program is going down.

[Comey]

Sigh...unbelievable.

[DeToxRox]

Fixed so it's readable.

Penn State Head Coach Joe Paterno released a statement today regarding the child sex abuse charges filed against his former defensive coordinator Jerry Sandusky, saying "If this is true we were all fooled."

Perjury and failure to report charges were also filed against university Athletic Director Tim Curley and Vice President for business and finance, Gary Schultz, after prosecutors say they ignored a report in 2002 from then-graduate assistant Mike McQueary that McQueary had witnessed Sandusky performing a sex act with a boy in the Penn State football locker room.

Paterno, 84, told Curley about what McQueary witnessed, but said in his statement that he was never told the specifics of what McQueary saw.

This is the statement, in full:

"If true, the nature and amount of charges made are very shocking to me and all Penn Staters. While I did what I was supposed to with the one charge brought to my attention, like anyone else involved I can't help but be deeply saddened these matters are alleged to have occurred.

"Sue and I have devoted our lives to helping young people reach their potential. The fact that someone we thought we knew might have harmed young people to this extent is deeply troubling. If this is true we were all fooled, along with scores of professionals trained in such things, and we grieve for the victims and their families. They are in our prayers.

"As my grand jury testimony stated, I was informed in 2002 by an assistant coach that he had witnessed an incident in the shower of our locker room facility. It was obvious that the witness was distraught over what he saw, but he at no time related to me the very specific actions contained in the Grand Jury report. Regardless, it was clear that the witness saw something inappropriate involving Mr. Sandusky. As Coach Sandusky was retired from our coaching staff at that time, I referred the matter to university administrators.

"I understand that people are upset and angry, but let's be fair and let the legal process unfold. In the meantime I would ask all Penn Staters to continue to trust in what that name represents, continue to pursue their lives every day with high ideals and not let these events shake their beliefs nor who they are."

[DeToxRox]

PSU is also covering the legal costs of Curley and Schultz. Seems incredible to me.

[molson]

PSU is also covering the legal costs of Curley and Schultz. Seems incredible to me.

They may be required to do that by employment contract...for ANYTHING (even if they were accused of murdering someone on the job).

Still incredible though.

[DeToxRox]

They may be required to do that by employment contract...for ANYTHING (even if they were accused of murdering someone on the job).

Still incredible though.

Hope that is indeed the case then.

[RedKingGold]

I would bet that, for insurance purposes, they're pretty much forced too. I wouldn't read who's picking up legal costs as a basis of support.

[RedKingGold]

Molson beat me to it.

[RainMaker]

As Recently As 2009, Jerry Sandusky Was Running An Overnight Football Camp For Kids On Penn State Campuses (http://deadspin.com/5856887/as-recently-as-2009-jerry-sandusky-was-running-an-overnight-football-camp-for-kids-on-penn-state-campuses)

[Crapshoot]

AP reports Curley and Schultz are stepping down. Shocked this didn't happen earlier.

[RomaGoth]

AP reports Curley and Schultz are stepping down. Shocked this didn't happen earlier.

Probably just the beginning. Does Paterno last after this, or does he quietly retire after this season?

[thealmighty]

Obviously I don't know about the law in Penn., but here you are required, by law, to report anything that you hear of any possible abuse. You do not tell your supervisor, you are required to personally get in touch with CPS and file a report, whether you have proof or not.

I have had to report just on a student telling me they are hit by their parent. The truth of their statement is irrelevant- as an adult I must protect the child and let the "professionals" deal with truths, not some AD.

[molson]

Ha, so Sandusky actually wrote and published a book called, "Touched: The Jerry Sandusky Story"....almost a cry for help.

[Ben E Lou]

Obviously I don't know about the law in Penn., but here you are required, by law, to report anything that you hear of any possible abuse. You do not tell your supervisor, you are required to personally get in touch with CPS and file a report, whether you have proof or not.

I have had to report just on a student telling me they are hit by their parent. The truth of their statement is irrelevant- as an adult I must protect the child and let the "professionals" deal with truths, not some AD.This was the case with me when I was on YL Staff in Georgia. I haven't read the entire thread so I don't know if this has been covered yet, but that's evidently not the case in Pennsylvania, at least not when you work for a University. This is straight from the Grand Jury Report:

http://www.fof-ihof.com/upload/Ben%20E%20Lou/dumb_yankees.png

It appears from this that legally, Paterno is completely in the clear. From reading the report and seeing Paterno's statement, it appears that at some point (whether before he told JoePa or after the fact) McQueary decided to shield Paterno a bit by only telling him that "something of a sexual nature" occurred (or agreeing to say that was all he told him.) The report (and Paterno's statement) indicates he told Paterno in vague terms, and he said "anal sex" to Schultz and Curley.

[corbes]

I was in PA when Sandusky retired back in 99 or whenever that was. It was generally viewed as very surprising that he retired then; he was still fairly young and was still viewed as the heir apparent at that time. I am wondering whether he was quietly ushered out then for these reasons--and if so, whether PSU officials knew more than they should have prior to the 2002 incident.

[Ksyrup]

I don't know how much you could shield Paterno from the details when you (a) are reporting something that happened between an adult and a 10 year old, alone, in the team shower, and (b) it's so important that your dad accompanies you to the meeting with Paterno. He may be legally in the clear, and it may be that they toned down the graphic description of it for him, but it was enough that Paterno reported it to his supervisor. So it really doesn't matter whether he knew it was anal sex, oral sex, fondling, etc., he knew it was serious enough to have to report and what the gist of it was.

With his early retirement and rumors of stuff going on before and after this, it's hard to believe Paterno wouldn't follow-up on his own with his superiors, or even quietly with police. Not to protect himself even, but as a concerned citizen. And if he had any say or approval in Sandusky continuing to use the PSU facilities, then he's just as culpable. There's no way the general public/media knows of possible instances of this going on, that Paterno didn't have even more of an awareness of this stuff over the past 15 years. I simply don't believe it. The senility defense is only going to take him so far.

I can understand, if this was an isolated incident, following it through and finding there wasn't enough evidence to go forward. But it didn't even get that far, and with other investigations going on and continuing to let the guy bring kids on campus... the entire athletic department and school administration should probably be wiped clean.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Ha, so Sandusky actually wrote and published a book called, "Touched: The Jerry Sandusky Story"....almost a cry for help.

As if the title wasn't enough.

Report: Former coach Jerry Sandusky used charity to molest kids | PennLive.com (http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/11/report_former_coach_jerry_sand.html)

"We've continually tried to reach out to thousands of young people and tried to do more for them," he wrote. "As much as we can. To make it even better, the reaching out has always been a lot of fun. Especially at the summer camps, where I've enjoyed wrestling and swimming with the kids. I even had to have knee surgery in the summer of 1991 because of my fooling around."

"Once, Dottie said to me: 'Jer, you're probably the only one who really enjoys the things that you do.' That's probably true, but that's okay with me. I enjoy the life that I have had and I'll never regret being called a 'great' pretender."

[Matthean]

Paterno should have at least inquired enough about it and at least try enough to see to it that the situation wouldn't be happening again. To have the university know about a pedophile being on staff and yet have them still hanging out at PSU with kids is inexcusable.

[Ben E Lou]

With his early retirement and rumors of stuff going on before and after this, it's hard to believe Paterno wouldn't follow-up on his own with his superiors, or even quietly with police. Not to protect himself even, but as a concerned citizen.I don't find it hard to believe at all. My assumption in this sort of situation is that Paterno's priorities were along the lines of:

1. Protect Joe Paterno from legal culpability.





2. Protect Penn State's football program from a terrible public smear.




























3. Protect other kids from this monster.


Following up has the potential to put goal #1 and/or #2 in jeopardy. Meeting his legal obligation and then sticking his head in the sand works much better. *shurg*

[Ben E Lou]

Dola:

And that's not necessarily intended as a slap at Paterno specifically. My guess is that the majority of major BCS type head coaches would do pretty much the same thing given the same laws. I suspect that it'd be even harder for a younger coach to "go outside the chain of command" and go straight to the authorities, for fear of it being difficult/impossible to get hired somewhere else.

[bronconick]

To be fair, the very people Paterno reported to are now the ones under indictment for perjury. It's completely in the realm of possibility that if/when Paterno followed up that they fed him a pack of lies and said it was taken care of/being investigated/found to be untrue/etc.

[Ben E Lou]

To be fair, the very people Paterno reported to are now the ones under indictment for perjury. It's completely in the realm of possibility that if/when Paterno followed up that they fed him a pack of lies and said it was taken care of/being investigated/found to be untrue/etc.Heh. I was just about to post something somewhat along these lines, although less innocuous. I wonder if he followed up and was answered with an obvious lie that he decided to "believe" because it best served the top two goals I mentioned.

[Ksyrup]

I'm not so much focused on this specific incident as I am the next 10 years. Re Ben's point, he's already ensured himself of being legally in the clear by reporting this incident. Even if protecting his legacy and PSU football were his only other concern, wouldn't he have then quietly made sure that Sandusky was kept away from the school? You can privately/quietly sever ties without smoke.

Otherwise, for Paterno to either allow access or not speak up when others gave access to Sandusky to continue doing the things he was doing, doesn't seem to serve any of Paterno's goals. It just makes no sense at a minimum, and of course from a human perspective, it's unforgivable. I'd be interested to know who gave the guy clearance to be on campus these last 10 years.

[Logan]

The whole "he's been barred from campus" but now knowing he was conducting camps there up until 2009 is really fucking terrible.

[Ben E Lou]

Did I misread something? I thought he was only barred from bringing kids on campus.

[Ksyrup]

Did I misread something? I thought he was only barred from bringing kids on campus.

Geez, I hope not. Because you know, the idea that a sexual predator is only limited to little boys is not exactly the position I'd want to argue from a risk management perspective. Imagine if the dude kidnapped, raped, and murdered a coed? Maybe he was just into little boys because with him being in football and the foundation he created, they were his easiest access.

Again, you go so far as to know enough that you keep him from bring kids on campus, you should pretty much just keep him away from campus altogether.

[Passacaglia]

Well the anonymous GA is no longer. It's, uh, Mike McQueary. Wow. Just effin wow.

So how come this guy didn't follow up beyond telling JoePa?

[Ksyrup]

The whole "he's been barred from campus" but now knowing he was conducting camps there up until 2009 is really fucking terrible.

And if true, suggests he used his football/athletic department friendships/contacts to secure that access. Now, who knew what is obviously the question, but man, that looks AWFUL.

[Ben E Lou]

Gracious, the CNN article makes it sound like the ban was just on Second Mile kids, and not even all of campus...But instead of reporting the incident to authorities, Curley and Schultz banned Sandusky from having children from Second Mile visit the football building, Kelly said.I don't know if that's accurate or not, but...wow.

[Logan]

Did I misread something? I thought he was only barred from bringing kids on campus.

My bad on not typing that fully, it's what I meant. But would running football camps for kids not fall under that?

[Ksyrup]

So how come this guy didn't follow up beyond telling JoePa?

Good question. But he's also a young 20-something year old kid. And he did have a conversation with the 2 guys who are charged with perjury, so that was his follow-up. I seriously doubt he knew that they changed his statement and/or didn't report it. Maybe he jsut assumed that a single eyewitness and no more wasn't sufficient grounds to bring charges.

And that goes for Paterno, too. But obviously, Paterno seems to be in a much better and more powerful position to (a) know what's going on, beyond this incident, and (b) have the authority and pull to get answers, if he wanted to.

[Ben E Lou]

I just re-read that section of the Grand Jury report. He was told that he was prohibited "from bringing youth onto the Penn State campus."

[Ben E Lou]

Oh, and also the report mentions that even Schultz, who oversaw the University Police, admitted that the "ban" was completely unenforceable. And he didn't actually report it *to* the University Police.

So breaking it down, what it appears happened is that everybody just hoped the kid would never report it and it would therefore never come to light.

[Ksyrup]

Maybe Sandusky was able to sneak this kid into whatever settlements Michael Jackson was making at the time.

[molson]

So breaking it down, what it appears happened is that everybody just hoped the kid would never report it and it would therefore never come to light.

And the sad thing is, that probably "works" a great majority of the time.

But when it backfires, it backfires.....Nice try JoPa, 130 years of coaching or whatever, but now this is your legacy.

[cartman]

I didn't realize that the dean of students from Ferris Bueller was one of the parties involved.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/images/201111/schultz_330.jpg

[Honolulu_Blue]

I didn't realize that the dean of students from Ferris Bueller was one of the parties involved.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/images/201111/schultz_330.jpg

The weird thing being is that the actor who played the dean of students (Princple Rooney) in Ferris Bueller (Jeffrey Jones) is a registered sex offender because he was arrested for inducing a 14-year-old boy to pose for nude photos at his Hollywood Hills home.

[RomaGoth]

The weird thing being is that the actor who played the dean of students (Princple Rooney) in Ferris Bueller (Jeffrey Jones) is a registered sex offender because he was arrested for inducing a 14-year-old boy to pose for nude photos at his Hollywood Hills home.

:eek:

[Logan]

I didn't realize that the dean of students from Ferris Bueller was one of the parties involved.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/images/201111/schultz_330.jpg

You know the story on that guy right?

edit: H_B beat me.

[Autumn]

I don't know this GA (I don't follow college football) but I take it he's a bigger name now than he was?

I'm sure he and Paterno were told "we'll take care of it," but I once again posit: if you see or hear about my kid being raped, I damn well want you to do more than tell the athletic director about it. That should just be step one. Make an anonymous call if yo'ure too scared to follow through, but you do something.

[Ksyrup]

McQueary was a PSU QB back in the mid-late 90s. He's now a WR coach and assistant. He's the redheaded guy you see on the sidelines. He's no different than most GAs who rise through the ranks with their alma mater after graduating, but he's definitely more well-known than some anonymous third-string CB who was a GA and now sells used cars.

[Ben E Lou]

Press conference with the PA Attorney General's Office just ended. Spokesperson (didn't catch her title) directly said that Paterno "did what he was supposed to do." (I believe that was the direct quote.)

However, someone asked if JoePa and McQueary might have increased culpability in this because they would have been present at the 2007 practice where he showed up. She responded that it was something they'd have to look into. The way she answered made it seem like they've very recently been made aware that he showed up at practice with a kid in 2007 (as in that it wasn't a part of the investigation at all.) She definitely left the door open on that question.

[miked]

I think we can all agree that he did what he was supposed to do, but didn't do what he should have done :)

[Ksyrup]

Yeah, I'm less interested in his legal culpability, and more interested in his moral/ethical obligations going forward. Both as a result of this incident, in terms of what he did/didn't do, and in the future, if he was aware Sandusky was on school grounds with kids/camps. Or even, why didn't he push to have him exiled permanently from the campus? Did he convince himself that McQueary was mistaken in what he saw? Was there more smoke to this fire generally from the 80s and on, and JoePa chose to ignore it? Is that why no one pushed this one incident, because they were afraid what more digging would find? Is this tied to his retirement?

There are a ton of questions that will ultimately bear on how we view JoePa, but right now, he's already significantly lowered in my estimation. I'm afraid what could come out would only drag him lower.

[JPhillips]

Francesca was saying that the campus police wrote a thirty page report in 1998. Is that in the grand jury report? If that's true it's impossible to believe that Joe didn't at least know of the report. If he knew in 1998 and then did the bare minimum in 2002 when this would have been at least the second incident Joe knew about, he should be ashamed. How many kids got raped after Joe and a number of Penn St. admin knew and did nothing?

[dawgfan]

Francesca was saying that the campus police wrote a thirty page report in 1998. Is that in the grand jury report? If that's true it's impossible to believe that Joe didn't at least know of the report. If he knew in 1998 and then did the bare minimum in 2002 when this would have been at least the second incident Joe knew about, he should be ashamed. How many kids got raped after Joe and a number of Penn St. admin knew and did nothing?
More and more I'm thinking that people in charge at Penn State - probably including Paterno - knew something was up with Sandusky, hence his unusual, early "retirement" in '99.

I'm not going to be surprised if it turns out there was a lot of cover-up going on, which is a shame - while I never had any particular emotional investment in the story of Joe Paterno, it's always disappointing to find out that guys who are held up as positive examples turn out to have fundamental cracks in said facade.

[DeToxRox]

This is from a PSU forum:

Lance Z confirmed on Houston radio this morning what I had heard a couple of years ago. Kylie Wong was on several years ago talking about a PSU player in the league who told Kylie, Paterno sometimes showers with the team and even lathered up and washed dudes backs. Given Paterno's involvement in the coverup of a pedophile. AND the fact that Paterno's program paid for this creep to go on team trips and bowl games with kids AFTER he had been accused of sexual misconduct with children. Paterno should be the focus of an investigation regarding his involvement.

[ISiddiqui]

I'm just getting caught up on all this and I'm horrified. Holy crap! Maybe Paterno and McQueeny did what they were supposed to do, legally, but morally they really should have followed it up far more than they actually did. Just wow.

[Ksyrup]

This is from a PSU forum:

Lance Z confirmed on Houston radio this morning what I had heard a couple of years ago. Kylie Wong was on several years ago talking about a PSU player in the league who told Kylie, Paterno sometimes showers with the team and even lathered up and washed dudes backs. Given Paterno's involvement in the coverup of a pedophile. AND the fact that Paterno's program paid for this creep to go on team trips and bowl games with kids AFTER he had been accused of sexual misconduct with children. Paterno should be the focus of an investigation regarding his involvement.


And that poster should be investigated for his lack of knowledge of run-ons and sentence fragments.

[Ksyrup]

But seriously, this is one of those situations that could spiral out of control. Imagine what Joe Poznanski is thinking right now - he's been living in PA for research to write a book about JoePa. Imagine what comes out, or what he might dig up. Would make the Walter Payton book look like a press release by comparison.

[DeToxRox]

I just think its funny that so many PSU fans are the ones letting the rumors fly out of control. I guess it's normal for fans to report what they hear to try and be an "insider" but it's just making the story that much worse.

[spleen1015]

I just think its funny that so many PSU fans are the ones letting the rumors fly out of control. I guess it's normal for fans to report what they hear to try and be an "insider" but it's just making the story that much worse.

If only Mizzou B-ball fan was PSU F-ball fan!

[dawgfan]

But seriously, this is one of those situations that could spiral out of control. Imagine what Joe Poznanski is thinking right now - he's been living in PA for research to write a book about JoePa. Imagine what comes out, or what he might dig up. Would make the Walter Payton book look like a press release by comparison.
Yeah, the chances that this story gets uglier as time goes on seems quite high.

[Silver Owl]

My question is why the GA didn't at the very least confront Sandusky when he saw the incident happening.

[RainMaker]

http://i.imgur.com/C455m.jpg

[molson]

One thing I've read that a lot of the other stories seem to be omitting is that Sandusky WAS investigated by police in 1998 but the prosecutor decided not to file charges. I don't know how much that played into his resignation, or the decision by people apparently not to come forward when future incidents were learned about, but it just goes to show that "going to the police" doesn't necessary solve anything either (not that it shouldn't be done). That prosecutor that declined charges, by the way, disappeared 6 years ago was recently declared legally dead.

Also, I came across a USA today blurb from around 2000 that reported that Sandusky was "the leading candidate" for the Virginia head coaching job that Al Groh got. They probably did their research and may have known some stuff too....Sandusky doesn't appear to have been a serious candidate for any job after that.

[Suicane75]

Paterno may not be legally culpable at this point but I can't help but think so much less of him right now than I ever thought I could. It makes me sick.

[General Mike]

Mike Francesa « CBS New York (http://newyork.cbslocal.com/audio-on-demand/mike-francesa-1/)

Listen to the Kim Jones interview. Good insight.

[RomaGoth]

...That prosecutor that declined charges, by the way, disappeared 6 years ago was recently declared legally dead.

The plot thickens.......

[General Mike]

The more I hear, the more disgusted I get with everyone involved.

[Radii]

Mike Francesa « CBS New York (http://newyork.cbslocal.com/audio-on-demand/mike-francesa-1/)

Listen to the Kim Jones interview. Good insight.


This is depressing and disgusting. :(

[TroyF]

Just horrible. :(

As others have said, the more I see, the more disgusted I get. Just sad.

[BYU 14]

My question is why the GA didn't at the very least confront Sandusky when he saw the incident happening.

I have wondered this as well, can only surmise that he panicked or just couldn't believe what he was seeing.....Hard to imagine walking in on that on not stopping it though.

I hate these stories as a coach. Parents trust us with their kids and when we don't uphold that trust to the highest level we fail. When something like this happens it goes far, far beyond that. I am beyond appalled with the entire situation and that doesn't even include what I feel about that sonofabitch Sandusky.

That interview with Kim Jones makes me just want to cry.

[tarcone]

I am shattered that a man would do this to anyone, let alone young boys. Paterno reported it and wrote it off? Seriously? The GA wasnt specific? What did he say? "Hey, I just saw something weird. Sandusky was with a little boy in the shower with no one around. But thats all I can say." And Paterno thinks "Well I reported it, nothing else I can do. But I will let him come to closed practices with boys and let him use the PSU facilities for overnight football camps."
This is just one of the worst things I have ever heard. Shame on Jerry Sandusky. Shame on Mike McQueary. And shame on Joe Paterno.
They are all evil.

[Matthean]

Mike Francesa « CBS New York (http://newyork.cbslocal.com/audio-on-demand/mike-francesa-1/)

Listen to the Kim Jones interview. Good insight.

Not really anything new, but the questions they bring up are ones that I don't think anybody expects a good answer from.

I went and looked up on Rivals for PSU's next class and they are actually 2nd in the Big Ten. Granted they are only 19th in the nation. This is something that's going to hurt recruiting a ton. Odd to see only three Big Ten teams in the top 25 and two of them are PSU and OSU.

[molson]

This is something that's going to hurt recruiting a ton.

Those showers have to be tainted forever. Yeesh....maybe at least do a full remodel there.

[Matthean]

Those showers have to be tainted forever. Yeesh....maybe at least do a full remodel there.

Just don't ask Iowa to do the remodeling.

[Ksyrup]

Yeah, it's like putting a house on the market where there's been a mass murder or something.

[hoopsguy]

I thought of this SVU episode back when this story broke:
Watch Law & Order: SVU - Season 13 Episode 2: Personal Fouls (http://www.tv-links.eu/tv-shows/Law--and--Order--SVU_8877/season_13/episode_2/)

Normally the "Law and Order" shows copycat the news - like the "Bartman" episode, to pick one - but they appear to have been in front of the news this time around.

[Matthean]

Joe Paterno, Penn State didn't do what was right in Sandusky case - Michael Rosenberg - SI.com (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/michael_rosenberg/11/07/pennst.scandal/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_t12_a2)

Paterno has done far more good than harm in his career. But if you have been paying attention, you know that he has a bad habit of minimizing serious allegations.

When Penn State receiver Tony Johnson was arrested for driving under the influence a few years ago, Paterno said he would discipline him "just because I have to send a message to the squad that it is inappropriate to be out in the middle of the week having a couple of drinks."

Police said Johnson had a blood-alcohol level of .136, well above the legal limit.

Before a bowl game against Penn State in 2006, Florida State linebacker A.J. Nicholson was accused of sexual assault. Remember: This was not Paterno's player. He didn't have to say anything.

But he said this: "There are so many people gravitating to these kids. Maybe he didn't know what he was getting into, Nicholson. Somebody will knock on the door. A cute girl knocks on the door. What do you do?

"Thank God, they don't knock on my door. I'd refer them to a couple of other rooms.

"But that's too bad. You hate to see that, you really do. You'd like to see a kid end up his career. And he's a heck of a football player, he really is. It's just too bad. That's all I can say. It's just too bad."

[spleen1015]

I have to believe there are details that we just don't know about.

If I am JoePa and I hear about this, I am going to Sandusky and asking him WTF? I haven't heard about him doing anything like that.

I also agree with the question why didn't the GA do something about it when he saw it?

[Ben E Lou]

If I am JoePa and I hear about this, I am going to Sandusky and asking him WTF? I haven't heard about him doing anything like that.In a normal situation, sure. But I'm just not convinced that that's how it works in a major college football program when something like this happens. As I said earlier, I tend to think this sort of head-in-the-sand and cover-up behavior could happen (and probably has) at the majority of the big-time college football programs in the country. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it turns out that he never said a word about it to Sandusky. I'd also be unsurprised if he went to Sandusky and Sanduksy said "No way, Joe. I would never do something like that!" And then Paterno used a categorical denial to convince himself that he didn't need to do anything further.

Any number of scenarios could be true here, but the primary agenda was to protect themselves and the Penn State image. I probably sounded a little harsh and/or cynical when I said that yesterday, but the interview linked above is saying pretty much exactly the same thing.

[timmynausea]

According to Paterno's son, Joe never discussed it with Sandusky:

Paterno’s son Scott said in an interview Sunday that Paterno never spoke to Sandusky about the allegation, and that he never seriously pursued the question of whether any action had been taken by the university or any other authorities against Sandusky.

“From my imperfect recollection, once he referred it off, I do not believe he had a second conversation about it,” Scott Paterno said of his father and how he handled any follow-up on the allegation. He added: “The appropriate people were contacted by Joe. That was the chain of command. It was a retired employee and it falls under the university’s auspices, not the football auspices.”

In Penn State’s Sex Abuse Case, a Focus on How Paterno Reacted - NYTimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/07/sports/ncaafootball/in-penn-states-sex-abuse-case-a-focus-on-how-paterno-reacted.html?_r=2&ref=sports)

[JPhillips]

In a normal situation, sure. But I'm just not convinced that that's how it works in a major college football program when something like this happens. As I said earlier, I tend to think this sort of head-in-the-sand and cover-up behavior could happen (and probably has) at the majority of the big-time college football programs in the country. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it turns out that he never said a word about it to Sandusky. I'd also be unsurprised if he went to Sandusky and Sanduksy said "No way, Joe. I would never do something like that!" And then Paterno used a categorical denial to convince himself that he didn't need to do anything further.

Any number of scenarios could be true here, but the primary agenda was to protect themselves and the Penn State image. I probably sounded a little harsh and/or cynical when I said that yesterday, but the interview linked above is saying pretty much exactly the same thing.

Plausible deniability.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Front Page of the Harrisburg Patriot-News (http://www.newseum.org/todaysfrontpages/hr.asp?fpVname=PA_PN&ref_pge=lst)

[Ksyrup]

He added: “The appropriate people were contacted by Joe. That was the chain of command. It was a retired employee and it falls under the university’s auspices, not the football auspices.”

Really? It was a choice between the university chain of command, or the football chain of command? That's it? So if someone finds the dead body of a retired employee in the shower next time, they're just supposed to call the AD, head off to practice, and not give it a second thought?

[Grego]

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7205085/growing-penn-state

Not sure if this was posted earlier, but a different perspective on this mess.

[jbergey22]

Yup, this is a bunch of BS.

Reports of this were from 98, Sandusky was asked to resign Im sure in 99 after these reports surfaced. Joe Pa knew the entire time what this POS was doing.

Victim#1 sounded like a multiple time victim. Sad.

If there was a police investigation in 98 you would think Jo Pa would have been questioned which should be in the police records, correct? Unless the investigator didnt do his/her job which it appears was the case since this scum was set free to harm more innocent children.

[Logan]

Do Scott and Jay Paterno have kids? Wonder if JoePa would have been comfortable having his grandkids around Sandusky.

[JPhillips]

Yup, this is a bunch of BS.

Reports of this were from 98, Sandusky was asked to resign Im sure in 99 after these reports surfaced. Joe Pa knew the entire time what this POS was doing.

Victim#1 sounded like a multiple time victim. Sad.

If there was a police investigation in 98 you would think Jo Pa would have been questioned which should be in the police records, correct? Unless the investigator didnt do his/her job which it appears was the case since this scum was set free to harm more innocent children.

Even if Joe wasn't questioned I can't believe he didn't see a report written about hid DC and hand picked successor. That's what makes the 2002 story so bad, IMO. A one time allegation is one thing, but a second incident with an eyewitness demands action greater than telling your boss and forgetting about it. He may be legally clear, but he sure as hell is morally culpable.

[jbergey22]

Even if Joe wasn't questioned I can't believe he didn't see a report written about hid DC and hand picked successor. That's what makes the 2002 story so bad, IMO. A one time allegation is one thing, but a second incident with an eyewitness demands action greater than telling your boss and forgetting about it. He may be legally clear, but he sure as hell is morally culpable.

Correct. He knew and chose to look the other way like a coward.

[Ben E Lou]

Penn State cancels Joe Paterno's scheduled news conference (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2011/11/penn-state-joe-paterno-press-conference-cancelled/1)

[yacovfb]

Penn State Said to Be Planning Paternos Exit - NYTimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/sports/ncaafootball/penn-state-said-to-be-planning-paternos-exit.html?hp)

[Crapshoot]

Good. JoePa and that whole program needs to get shaken up. the AD should go to jail for not reporting it.

[Rizon]

what more done

jopa
cain
philly eagles
trout baked at 550 degrees for 2 hours

[larrymcg421]

what more done

jopa
cain
philly eagles
trout baked at 550 degrees for 2 hours

I think you've got it in the right order.

[Logan]

Just listening to Kim Jones on WFAN right now...she states that yesterday when Paterno addressed the team, he said he "knew nothing about Sandusky".

[Matthean]

My guess is the more PSU looks into this the more screwed they see they are. I'll never understand how Mike McQueary, according to reports, witnessed the raping of a young child, had Sandusky and the child see him, and yet when it came time to decide if Sandusky should still have ties to PSU with having kids there with an overnight camp on the campus the idea wasn't shot down by him raising issues with the idea. I'll never understand Sandusky's side of things were he knows he's caught doing the act and somehow thinks it's ok to keep ties with PSU and do the whole camp thing while on PSU's campus. If I got caught like he did, I would make sure I never saw McQueary or the PSU campus ever again and moved far away asap. Interactions between McQueary and Sandusky had to be awkward as hell after that.

[Bisbo]

Let Cain grope JoePa for about an hour - should cure both of them.

[JPhillips]

Penn State cancels Joe Paterno's scheduled news conference (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2011/11/penn-state-joe-paterno-press-conference-cancelled/1)

I guess they figured out that telling reporters they could only ask about football wouldn't work.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Paterno is trying to set up an off-campus press conference.

http://twitter.com/#!/Ben_Jones88

[Matthean]

Just listening to Kim Jones on WFAN right now...she states that yesterday when Paterno addressed the team, he said he "knew nothing about Sandusky".

Yeah, but why didn't he know anything about it when it was his own DC?

[bhlloy]

This sounds like its about to get very ugly between JoePa and PSU

Not that that's the most important thing here in any way

[Ksyrup]

My guess is the more PSU looks into this the more screwed they see they are. I'll never understand how Mike McQueary, according to reports, witnessed the raping of a young child, had Sandusky and the child see him, and yet when it came time to decide if Sandusky should still have ties to PSU with having kids there with an overnight camp on the campus the idea wasn't shot down by him raising issues with the idea. I'll never understand Sandusky's side of things were he knows he's caught doing the act and somehow thinks it's ok to keep ties with PSU and do the whole camp thing while on PSU's campus. If I got caught like he did, I would make sure I never saw McQueary or the PSU campus ever again and moved far away asap. Interactions between McQueary and Sandusky had to be awkward as hell after that.

McQueary is PSU's recruiting coordinator, too, right? He has to leave. How does the recruiting coordinator not have his position completely compromised by such a total lack of looking out for a young person's best interests?

About the only thing that could save Paterno at this point is if a dozen or more people fell on their sword for him, saying that they hid stuff from him about Sandusky and that this one 2002 incident is the only one he knew of in a vaccuum and he'd been told by his superiors that it was resolved with lawyers. And even that's still not a great resolution. But anything else, and unfortunately (for us, if not him), his entire legacy and image are completely shattered.

[Ben E Lou]

Paterno is trying to set up an off-campus press conference.

http://twitter.com/#!/Ben_Jones88 (http://twitter.com/#%21/Ben_Jones88)

SAme dude...
Ben_Jones88 (http://twitter.com/#%21/Ben_Jones88) Ben Jones



Scott Paterno says his father is "not stepping down" and will be on the sidelines this weekend. They'll fight this one to the end.

Wow.

[RomaGoth]

My guess is the more PSU looks into this the more screwed they see they are. I'll never understand how Mike McQueary, according to reports, witnessed the raping of a young child, had Sandusky and the child see him, and yet when it came time to decide if Sandusky should still have ties to PSU with having kids there with an overnight camp on the campus the idea wasn't shot down by him raising issues with the idea. I'll never understand Sandusky's side of things were he knows he's caught doing the act and somehow thinks it's ok to keep ties with PSU and do the whole camp thing while on PSU's campus. If I got caught like he did, I would make sure I never saw McQueary or the PSU campus ever again and moved far away asap. Interactions between McQueary and Sandusky had to be awkward as hell after that.

Makes me wonder if anyone else was involved in this besides the cover up. Was anyone else present when Sandusky was doing this disgusting act to children? I just don't see how a handful of people can keep this a secret and all be on the same page as far as covering it up without someone, anyone, going to authorities.

The more I read about this disgusting situation, the more I suspect that other people were involved in this in ways that we don't want to know about.

[Matthean]

McQueary is PSU's recruiting coordinator, too, right?

Yep and I agree that he's gone. I at least can see the cover up/protecting angle, but to witness that and have the things that followed happened is inexcusable.

[RomaGoth]

I have a little more respect for Matt Millen after this, at least as a person (not so much on the football side of things):

Matt Millen Breaks Down And Cries On SportsCenter: "If We Can't Protect Our Kids, We, As A Society, Are Pathetic" (http://t.co/Wb405Cq9)

[Ben E Lou]

Ben_Jones88 (http://twitter.com/#%21/Ben_Jones88) Ben Jones



People are burning their Penn State diplomas outside of Old Main. This is getting a little out of hand..

[RomaGoth]

.

Just saw this. Is he for real? Happy Valley ain't looking so happy.....

[Logan]

Makes me wonder if anyone else was involved in this besides the cover up. Was anyone else present when Sandusky was doing this disgusting act to children? I just don't see how a handful of people can keep this a secret and all be on the same page as far as covering it up without someone, anyone, going to authorities.

The more I read about this disgusting situation, the more I suspect that other people were involved in this in ways that we don't want to know about.

Feel the same way. Posted the following on another board this morning: Paterno only "covering this up" could be the best case scenario as far as we know. Who knows what else is out there.

[Ksyrup]

Paterno is trying to set up an off-campus press conference.

Twitter (http://twitter.com/#!/Ben_Jones88)

Oh wow. Not to make too much fun of this stuation, but the first thing that came to mind, given Paterno's age, crankiness, and general Grandpa Simpson demeanor, is him going off about 30 minutes into his press conference in a "YOU'RE GODDAM RIGHT I ORDERED THE CODE RED!!!' tangent.

[britrock88]

Let me know when we can articulate exactly why JoePa's head (in contrast to those of his superiors) needs to roll.

[cartman]

I have a little more respect for Matt Millen after this, at least as a person (not so much on the football side of things):

Matt Millen Breaks Down And Cries On SportsCenter: "If We Can't Protect Our Kids, We, As A Society, Are Pathetic" (http://t.co/Wb405Cq9)

Poor choice of words, Matt.

there are so many more good things to come out of that program and out of that man. this is what will end up biting him in the rear end.

[Matthean]

Oh wow. Not to make too much fun of this stuation, but the first thing that came to mind, given Paterno's age, crankiness, and general Grandpa Simpson demeanor, is him going off about 30 minutes into his press conference in a "YOU'RE GODDAM RIGHT I ORDERED THE CODE RED!!!' tangent.

Off-campus press conference has been shut down.

[Ksyrup]

It is in Pennsylvania - so I assume Derek Bell has finally been gainfully employed again.

[Logan]

Let me know when we can articulate exactly why JoePa's head (in contrast to those of his superiors) needs to roll.

JoePa doesn't have superiors, you clown.

edit: In case that's not what you wanted to hear...we can ignore the ethical/moral side of how he should have done more than go up the supposed chain of command. But how about by not allowing Sandusky an office in his facilities, not allowing him full use of his facilities, not allowing him to be at closed practices, not allowing him to bring young boys to closed practices, not allowing him to hold overnight football camps?

[Ksyrup]

Let me know when we can articulate exactly why JoePa's head (in contrast to those of his superiors) needs to roll.

Penn State must fire Joe Paterno amid Jerry Sandusky sex scandal - Andy Staples - SI.com (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/andy_staples/11/08/penn-state-joe-paterno-scandal/index.html?xid=cnnbin)

[Matthean]

Just saw this. Is he for real? Happy Valley ain't looking so happy.....

http://s1-04.twitpicproxy.com/photos/large/443715344.jpg

[RomaGoth]

Let me know when we can articulate exactly why JoePa's head (along with those of his superiors) shouldn't roll.

fixed that for ya

[molson]

Just wait until the civil lawsuits from the victims start.....this is going to define Penn St. for a very long time. It's kind of hard to believe that Paterno is even still there right now.

I'm not sure the NYTimes counts as a reputable news source anymore, at least when it comes to sports (I lost respect for them when they jumped into the whole conference movement wild speculation arena), but they're reporting that "Penn State Said to Be Planning Paterno Exit Amid Scandal". (Edit, sorry, I see that was posted earlier)

[molson]

Paterno is trying to set up an off-campus press conference.

http://twitter.com/#!/Ben_Jones88

I love that, they're going to "try". I mean, really, I don't think it's that difficult to hold a press conference. I'm sure people will show up for it. I'm sure you can secure a venue with microphones.

[RomaGoth]

I love that, they're going to "try". I mean, really, I don't think it's that difficult to hold a press conference. I'm sure people will show up for it. I'm sure you can secure a venue with microphones.

The issue here is that Paterno wants a press conference that only talks about the upcoming game. Good luck with that.

[britrock88]

My impression is something like this.

In 2002, Sandusky is off the coaching staff. A grad assistant notices him doing something funny with a kid in the locker room, and decides to tell JoePa. I imagine that the GA doesn't articulate this to JoePa with a whole lot of specificity. JoePa nonetheless takes the GA's account seriously, and tells his superiors something to the effect that Sandusky was doing something weird with a kid in the showers. At this point, he's fulfilled his legal obligation, and he may not know enough to feel comfortable alerting the authorities directly. So he trusts the administration to act properly.

Certainly this sequence doesn't show JoePa's reaction to be a good example. But at least in a sense, he did nothing wrong. Perhaps he should have picked up on the trail and contacted police after noticing that nothing came of him telling the athletic administration about the incident. Sandusky wasn't a member of JoePa's staff; JoePa responded appropriately to the single report he received from the GA (at least in the legal sense). So why does this fall on his head?

(Please feel free to correct my understanding of the facts. I'm not making this point about JoePa just to be stubborn; I just haven't seen a failing on his part that requires him to be separated from PSU, (and apparently he hasn't, either).)

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

The issue here is that Paterno wants a press conference that only talks about the upcoming game. Good luck with that.

Hard to say with all the noise, but my understanding is that Paterno wants to "explain" and the school was the one who only wanted football questions. Could be wrong, though.

[Ksyrup]

First question: "I'm sorry coach, I've been distracted by the allegations against former coach Jerry Sandusky and the fact that you might be involved in a cover-up of a serial child molester who used school grounds to lure and commit these alleged atrocities. Who is your opponent this weekend?"

[Matthean]

He pretty much could have held a press conference standing where he was at. Looks like they are attempting another conference tomorrow.

http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg876/scaled.php?tn=0&server=876&filename=mdviu.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640

[RomaGoth]

Hard to say with all the noise, but my understanding is that Paterno wants to "explain" and the school was the one who only wanted football questions. Could be wrong, though.

That could be true, I may have it backwards. In either case, though, there is no way in hell a press conference happens that even remotely discusses football at this point.

[molson]

It would be kind of funny if one obnoxious reporter just kept yelling football questions at him. "JOE, JOE - what do you think of the Nebraska pass defense, JOE!!"

[Matthean]

(Please feel free to correct my understanding of the facts. I'm not making this point about JoePa just to be stubborn; I just haven't seen a failing on his part that requires him to be separated from PSU, (and apparently he hasn't, either).)

Legally he might be fine. It's the moral issue that everybody is taking an issue with.

[Izulde]

My impression is something like this.

In 2002, Sandusky is off the coaching staff. A grad assistant notices him doing something funny with a kid in the locker room, and decides to tell JoePa. I imagine that the GA doesn't articulate this to JoePa with a whole lot of specificity. JoePa nonetheless takes the GA's account seriously, and tells his superiors something to the effect that Sandusky was doing something weird with a kid in the showers. At this point, he's fulfilled his legal obligation, and he may not know enough to feel comfortable alerting the authorities directly. So he trusts the administration to act properly.

Certainly this sequence doesn't show JoePa's reaction to be a good example. But at least in a sense, he did nothing wrong. Perhaps he should have picked up on the trail and contacted police after noticing that nothing came of him telling the athletic administration about the incident. Sandusky wasn't a member of JoePa's staff; JoePa responded appropriately to the single report he received from the GA (at least in the legal sense). So why does this fall on his head?

(Please feel free to correct my understanding of the facts. I'm not making this point about JoePa just to be stubborn; I just haven't seen a failing on his part that requires him to be separated from PSU, (and apparently he hasn't, either).)

Pretty much my thoughts on the matter as well.

[molson]

Legally he might be fine. It's the moral issue that everybody is taking an issue with.

He's also kind of the king of Penn St.....if high-level people are being arrested, and people are burning their diplomas and everyone associated with the school is humiliated and embarrassed, that's gotta fall on him too. Sure, he can't know everything, but he certainly has to make it is priority to know as much as possible. "Really McQueary, some kind of vague funny business in the shower, huh? I'm going to ask no follow up questions of you and I won't look into this at all. It's someone else's problem. That should cover me." I think the big guy has to do a bit more there. There's responsibilities that come with being the king.

Even aside from the fact that he may have been able to prevent a lot of child rape, he's also (much less importantly), a key figure responsible for the general status and reputation of Penn St. That comes with being king. If you're king, and your kingdom goes in the crapper, you're implicated no matter what. "It's not my problem" might work if you're an office secretary but when you're the most important guy in the organization, your responsibilities are a lot more fluid.

[Matthean]

Still grabbing from the Ben Jones's Twitter, here's Joe Pa leaving for practice with people still chanting his name.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/IT_7jupJaUo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[RainMaker]

My impression is something like this.

In 2002, Sandusky is off the coaching staff. A grad assistant notices him doing something funny with a kid in the locker room, and decides to tell JoePa. I imagine that the GA doesn't articulate this to JoePa with a whole lot of specificity. JoePa nonetheless takes the GA's account seriously, and tells his superiors something to the effect that Sandusky was doing something weird with a kid in the showers. At this point, he's fulfilled his legal obligation, and he may not know enough to feel comfortable alerting the authorities directly. So he trusts the administration to act properly.

Certainly this sequence doesn't show JoePa's reaction to be a good example. But at least in a sense, he did nothing wrong. Perhaps he should have picked up on the trail and contacted police after noticing that nothing came of him telling the athletic administration about the incident. Sandusky wasn't a member of JoePa's staff; JoePa responded appropriately to the single report he received from the GA (at least in the legal sense). So why does this fall on his head?

(Please feel free to correct my understanding of the facts. I'm not making this point about JoePa just to be stubborn; I just haven't seen a failing on his part that requires him to be separated from PSU, (and apparently he hasn't, either).)

McQueary went to Paterno's home distraught and told him he saw Sandusky having anal sex with a child in the showers at Penn State. This is in the Grand Jury testimony. This is also after a 1998 allegation of him being inappropriate in the showers that Paterno knew about.

Sandusky was able to use the facilities, was able to hold youth camps, was able to attend practices/games (with kids!), and continue to be a presence on the Penn State campus up until a week ago.

Joe Paterno likely had no legal failing. But he had an enormous moral failing. He was informed by someone he trusted that Sandusky was sexually assaulting kids in his locker room. He did not pursue this and did not do anything to make sure the kid was safe or that Sandusky lost his rights to be on campus.

[Logan]

My impression is something like this.

In 2002, Sandusky is off the coaching staff. A grad assistant notices him doing something funny with a kid in the locker room, and decides to tell JoePa.

Your first impression is already misguided. "Doing something funny with a kid in the locker room" could be Sandusky doing his best Chris Rock impression. By Paterno's own words, he was told of "something inappropriate" happening "in the shower". He needs to be separated from PSU because even if you believe that he did not receive all the facts, despite the GA insisting he gave them (and the grand jury found all of his testimony to be very credible), it is not appropriate for the leader of a football program, and the de-facto leader of the university, to hear that explanation and not follow up any further, and allow the potential offender to hang around his football program up until last week.

And if for some reason Paterno thought the GA was full of shit and lied about what he said about his longtime friend, why not only keep him on staff, but continue to promote him?

At this point, it doesn't seem like Paterno has any potential criminal problems. But I stress, at this point.

[britrock88]

Legally he might be fine. It's the moral issue that everybody is taking an issue with.

No disagreement on his accountability on a personal level; I'm just not sure that justifies the president and AD bringing JoePa down with them.

Even aside from the fact that he may have been able to prevent a lot of child rape, he's also (much less importantly), a key figure responsible for the general status and reputation of Penn St. That comes with being king. If you're king, and your kingdom goes in the crapper, you're implicated no matter what.

Fair points. I have to wonder whether "if you're king, and your kingdom goes in the crapper, you're implicated no matter what" is an appropriate reaction, generally speaking.

[Ksyrup]

It's not just that this happened under his watch. It's that he had knowledge of the allegations and basically left it for others to handle, and knowing what the allegations were and what the "penalty" was, he didn't think anything further needed to be done. And, he let the guy continue to hang around his program.

I asked this question early on, and I still think it holds a clue to who knew what, when: Why did they decide that the appropriate action was to bar him from bringing kids on campus? The guy's a sexual predator in the general sense, it could have been a 10 year old boy that day and a 19 year old student tomorrow. I wonder if it's because they knew of repeated allegations/rumors about him and boys, and took only the most specific action they could to try to address the issue without raising too many red flags about why he no longer had an office, wasn't around the campus, what lead to his surprising early retirement, etc.? The idea that he left because he wasn't going to be JoePa's successor seems laughable now, doesn't it? JoePa was never going to leave, unless he died on the job.

[molson]

I asked this question early on, and I still think it holds a clue to who knew what, when: Why did they decide that the appropriate action was to bar him from bringing kids on campus?

At some point they required him to conduct all of his anal raping off-campus. Sensible.

[Autumn]

Yes, the fact that they ever let Sandusky back on the campus is an obvious failing. Even if the investigation never went anywhere, even if they did all they had to do legally, there is no way Sandusky should not have been taken aside next time he showed up, told "I think it's a good idea you don't come back here," and that's the end of it. Paterno and company certainly have the informal authority on campus to make that happen, even if they wanted to do it quietly. I would still find that disgusting, but he didn't even do that.

That's why he should go. He didn't apparently even bother to find out who was being raped in his showers, notify the parents, make sure the kid got attention. And if you feel like that's someone else's job, fine. But Joe Pa certainly had the ability to make sure no one at that college ever saw this molester again and he did the exact opposite. I hope he, and a lot of other people, have a lot of trouble sleeping.

[Autumn]

This quote from that SI article encapsulates my thoughts well:

I waited several days to write this because my first thought was what I would do if someone did something like this to my child. My initial reaction -- and I'm fairly certain most parents would feel this way -- was homicidal. If someone molested my child, he would need the police to protect him from me. If I found him first, his death would be neither quick nor clean. I might spend the rest of my life in prison, though I'm not sure a right-thinking jury would convict me. Those were the first thoughts that popped into my head, and I'm not ashamed to say that. So why didn't Paterno, a parent and grandparent who claims to have dedicated his life to the kids, feel the same way? Why didn't he do everything in his power to ensure he helped protect a kid who couldn't protect himself? I thought if I waited a few days I could look at the situation through a more rational lens. I can't. Every time I think about it, I get more angry. And I pray that I can protect my kids from the monsters, because apparently not everyone feels the same responsibility. If Paterno would sit silently for years about this, he has no business representing a proud university. Fire him now, not in days or weeks as The New York Times is reporting. I don't give a damn how many games he's won.

Read more: Penn State must fire Joe Paterno amid Jerry Sandusky sex scandal - Andy Staples - SI.com (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/andy_staples/11/08/penn-state-joe-paterno-scandal/index.html#ixzz1d99G0CsT)

[Ksyrup]

At some point they required him to conduct all of his anal raping off-campus. Sensible.

But my point is, he is/was a danger to the entire community as a sexual predator, not just to boys. If all you have is just this one allegation in a vaccuum, that is. If, OTOH, you have a secret file of documented complaints/allegations against the guy going back to the early 80s, all involving young boys, then you know how to tailor a remedy that should take care of the problem without raising any antennae...

[RomaGoth]

No disagreement on his accountability on a personal level; I'm just not sure that justifies the president and AD bringing JoePa down with them.



Fair points. I have to wonder whether "if you're king, and your kingdom goes in the crapper, you're implicated no matter what" is an appropriate reaction, generally speaking.

You are way off base here. Paterno has a responsibility as a human being to report something like this to the authorities and to follow up on it, up to and including not allowing a pedophile on the campus of a university (a state university no less). Instead, he did nothing and allowed this piece of shit to continually molest boys and wander around the PSU campus unobstructed.

Fuck Joe Paterno and his legacy.

[RainMaker]

http://i.imgur.com/ESPZR.jpg

[Ben E Lou]

But my point is, he is/was a danger to the entire community as a sexual predator, not just to boys. If all you have is just this one allegation in a vaccuum, that is. If, OTOH, you have a secret file of documented complaints/allegations against the guy going back to the early 80s, all involving young boys, then you know how to tailor a remedy that should take care of the problem without raising any antennae...
Don't make me repeat myself. ;)

They didn't *care* about protecting the community. They cared about protecting the Penn State brand.

[molson]

But my point is, he is/was a danger to the entire community as a sexual predator, not just to boys. If all you have is just this one allegation in a vaccuum, that is. If, OTOH, you have a secret file of documented complaints/allegations against the guy going back to the early 80s, all involving young boys, then you know how to tailor a remedy that should take care of the problem without raising any antennae...

Agreed, I've just reached this level of horrific amusement with the whole Penn St response. I just imagine stuff like:

"Jerry, no more raping"

"AWWWW"

"And no more kids on campus!"

"WHAT??!"

"OK, that was too much, you can still bring kids to campus....just keep all the funny business at home."

[gkb]

McQueary went to Paterno's home distraught and told him he saw Sandusky having anal sex with a child in the showers at Penn State. This is in the Grand Jury testimony.

I haven't been following this closely enough to understand what I perceive as a moderate view many of the posters in this thread are taking. After reading the above, would any of you have reacted the same way McQueary did? Would any of you not tried to help that child (and I mean right THEN, not later)? Would any of you, after hopefully helping that child, not gone directly to the police?

[Autumn]

Yeah, I don't understand at all what happened there with McQueary. I would love to understand how he saw something and didn't intervene, and go directly to the police.

[larrymcg421]

Don't make me repeat myself. ;)

They didn't *care* about protecting the community. They cared about protecting the Penn State brand.

Protecting the community would've hurt the PSU brand short term, but clearly would've helped it long term, because they wouldn't have been nearly as bad off in 1998 or 2002 as they are now. I'm puzzled that they couldn't see that for their own self-interest, beyond the obvious moral obligations.

[Logan]

Penn State Nittany Lions' sex abuse scandal -- Jerry Sandusky was on campus last week, reports say - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7207465/penn-state-nittany-lions-sex-abuse-scandal-jerry-sandusky-was-campus-last-week-reports-say)

Sandusky was on campus LAST WEEK? If that's true, Paterno has to be fired right now.

Didn't see the day specifically mentioned in that article, but Kim Jones on WFAN said players saw him on Friday during their 6am workout.

[molson]

Protecting the community would've hurt the PSU brand short term, but clearly would've helped it long term, because they wouldn't have been nearly as bad off in 1998 or 2002 as they are now. I'm puzzled that they couldn't see that for their own self-interest, beyond the obvious moral obligations.

And really, if they exposed a child molester and helped bring him to justice....I don't know how much that even really hurts the brand. They might have been applauded.

I think it goes deeper, I touched on it a few pages back just about how people get these mindsets that can't be overcome. It's kind of a mild mental illness, or at least a thinking error. About keeping things in the organization, and not trusting outsiders or the authorities. And in this case they had the justification, "well, the police found out about it in 1999, and they didn't care, so that's not an option for us - let's just keep this quiet and try to keep him out of here. But not too hard - we don't want to raise red flags.".

[Matthean]

Even if the investigation never went anywhere, even if they did all they had to do legally, there is no way Sandusky should not have been taken aside next time he showed up, told "I think it's a good idea you don't come back here," and that's the end of it. Paterno and company certainly have the informal authority on campus to make that happen, even if they wanted to do it quietly. I would still find that disgusting, but he didn't even do that.

Even worse, PSU allowed him to run camps on campus with kids until 2009 full knowing his history. This is like officially sponsoring a crack addict with a crack camp.

[Rizon]

http://i.imgur.com/ESPZR.jpg

...

[Rizon]

Wow, that was way big ...

[Matthean]

Wow, that was way big ...

(add in inappropriate joke here)

[Ben E Lou]

Protecting the community would've hurt the PSU brand short term, but clearly would've helped it long term, because they wouldn't have been nearly as bad off in 1998 or 2002 as they are now. I'm puzzled that they couldn't see that for their own self-interest, beyond the obvious moral obligations.I think you may be underestimating the level of pride (and self-righteousness) that Penn State has (well, had) in its "above reproach" image. Combine that with the thinking that I'm sure they had that Sandusky is "one of us," I wouldn't be surprised at all if they simply weren't able to make that distinction. And again, they're hoping that the kid never comes forward. I can envision someone saying in a meeting in 2002 that "most molested kids never report it. This probably will never come out if we don't say anything."

[Rizon]

(add in inappropriate joke here)

I can find the Report Post button here, but not the Report Post in 10 Years button.

[RomaGoth]

I haven't been following this closely enough to understand what I perceive as a moderate view many of the posters in this thread are taking. After reading the above, would any of you have reacted the same way McQueary did? Would any of you not tried to help that child (and I mean right THEN, not later)? Would any of you, after hopefully helping that child, not gone directly to the police?

I have been thinking on this since the story broke and I really have no idea how McQuery could NOT do something when stumbling upon this awful situation in the locker room. Makes me seriously wonder how much McQuery had to do with this as well.....

[Scoobz0202]

How old was McQuery?

[RomaGoth]

@Ben_Jones88 (http://twitter.com/#%21/Ben_Jones88) Ben Jones
Penn State students planning a night time rally around Paterno's house tonight. No way that ends poorly.

@Ben_Jones88 (http://twitter.com/#%21/Ben_Jones88) Ben Jones
Should mention that it's a support rally

[Ben E Lou]

I have been thinking on this since the story broke and I really have no idea how McQuery could NOT do something when stumbling upon this awful situation in the locker room. Makes me seriously wonder how much McQuery had to do with this as well.....Part of me wonders if JoePa isn't telling the truth--that the result of the conversation with his dad is that McQueary used vague wording to help protect the coach and ease his own conscience when talking with Paterno, and then gave the full story to Joe's "superiors."

[Ben E Lou]

How old was McQuery?28?

[RainMaker]

How old was McQuery?
Likely around 27-29 years old.

[RainMaker]

Agreed, I've just reached this level of horrific amusement with the whole Penn St response. I just imagine stuff like:

"Jerry, no more raping"

"AWWWW"

"And no more kids on campus!"

"WHAT??!"

"OK, that was too much, you can still bring kids to campus....just keep all the funny business at home."

What do you guys want from me? We took away his keys.

http://i.imgur.com/ZPyxv.jpg

[Logan]

Part of me wonders if JoePa isn't telling the truth--that the result of the conversation with his dad is that McQueary used vague wording to help protect the coach and ease his own conscience when talking with Paterno, and then gave the full story to Joe's "superiors."

When you say protect the coach, do you mean Paterno (shielding him from what happened) or Sandusky? Why would he want to protect Sandusky, or why would he feel the need to protect Paterno?

[RomaGoth]

Looks like Sandusky's hearing has been moved to December 7. Another month of this circus at the very least.

[Ben E Lou]

Playing career ended in '97, and this was 2002, so somewhere around there.

[Ben E Lou]

When you say protect the coach, do you mean Paterno (shielding him from what happened) or Sandusky? Why would he want to protect Sandusky, or why would he feel the need to protect Paterno?I meant Paterno. I just think maybe he wouldn't want to "force" Paterno to report it by saying "anal rape."

[RomaGoth]

When you say protect the coach, do you mean Paterno (shielding him from what happened) or Sandusky? Why would he want to protect Sandusky, or why would he feel the need to protect Paterno?

I think what he is saying is that McQuery may have been protecting Paterno by not telling him everything or by mincing his words a little. I am of the opinion that McQuery had a lot to lose by saying anything about this situation since he clearly had plans to be on the coaching staff at some point. He made the wrong decision in any case.

[dawgfan]

I'm finding it increasingly hard to believe that people in charge (and likely Paterno himself) didn't know about Sandusky being a predator well before 2002 - there was the '98 incident, and the odd timing of Sandusky "retiring" in '99 at a relative young age after being hyped as Paterno's successor for many years.

[stevew]

This is like the whole Vito/Flynn situation on the Sopranos. If it involved child rape, I mean.

[Ksyrup]

Protecting the community would've hurt the PSU brand short term, but clearly would've helped it long term, because they wouldn't have been nearly as bad off in 1998 or 2002 as they are now. I'm puzzled that they couldn't see that for their own self-interest, beyond the obvious moral obligations.

Unless 1998 wasn't the first allegation or hint of something going on, but the first organized attempt to conceal a trail that might lead back into the 80s. Then it makes a lot more sense to try to bury it.

[RainMaker]

Lot of rumbling that Paterno is out, maybe by the weekend.

[path12]

How old was McQuery?

Does it matter? Is there a certain age where it is OK to see a 10 year old boy being raped that you are excused from:

A) Stopping the assault immediately

and

B) Calling the fucking police and having that monster locked up?

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Lot of rumbling that Paterno is out, maybe by the weekend.

Hard to believe that Paterno's career could end this way.

[jbergey22]

Hard to believe that Paterno's career could end this way.

Makes a person wonder what else has gone on at Penn St that he has covered up over his career. His willingness to let his d cordinator have his way with children has me wondering what he thought of silly recruiting/academic rules that were put in front of him.

[RomaGoth]

Makes a person wonder what else has gone on at Penn St that he has covered up over his career.

I mentioned this in an earlier thread, and my concerns aren't just with Penn State.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Does it matter? Is there a certain age where it is OK to see a 10 year old boy being raped that you are excused from:

A) Stopping the assault immediately

and

B) Calling the fucking police and having that monster locked up?

Or at the very least call the police and leave an anonymous message about the incident.

Simply telling your father and then talking to Paterno about it is not enough.

[Izulde]

Makes a person wonder what else has gone on at Penn St that he has covered up over his career. His willingness to let his d cordinator have his way with children has me wondering what he thought of silly recruiting/academic rules that were put in front of him.

A Penn State alumna I know said the football players had carte blanche to rape women's basketball players and that it happened a lot while she was there. So if that's true, that's one of the things that may be coming to light in the coming weeks.

[DeToxRox]

The Harrisburg ABC affiliate is reporting Joe resigned following a team meeting today according to a PSU forum. The anchor apparently made sure to mention is was unconfirmed of course.

[Jas_lov]

Lot of rumbling that Paterno is out, maybe by the weekend.

Good. The guy knew about it and did nothing more than tell his boss. His superiors are being charged criminally and nothing happens to him because he told his boss? Unacceptable. And I can't believe all those students chanting his name. The guy helped cover up for a pedophile raping little kids, Joe Pa's gotta go. If he won't step down, fire him.

[larrymcg421]

A Penn State alumna I know said the football players had carte blanche to rape women's basketball players and that it happened a lot while she was there. So if that's true, that's one of the things that may be coming to light in the coming weeks.

Interesting. I saw a documentary at the Atlanta Film Festival about PSU women's basketball coach Rene Portland and her banning of lesbian players, which briefly mentioned JoePa's unconditional support of her.

[Young Drachma]

@Ben_Jones88 Paterno holding a press conference out his window in tears. "No matter what happens to some people Im proud of you" twitpic.com/7c8n10 Penn State students screaming the lyrics to the Alma Mater "May no act of ours bring shame"

[DeToxRox]

Apparently the PSU Rivals site is saying Joe was asked to resign today effective immediately but declined. However, he told his team he'd be done at the end of the season. They also reported that PSU has already reached out to Al Golden about the job.

[larrymcg421]

Apparently the PSU Rivals site is saying Joe was asked to resign today effective immediately but declined. However, he told his team he'd be done at the end of the season. They also reported that PSU has already reached out to Al Golden about the job.

So they expect him to run from Miami due to their scandal and run right into another messy situation at PSU?

[Galaxy]

I hope this thread doesn't become like the Conference realignment thread, full of rumors and guessing.