NFL Week 15 thread

[SirFozzie]

How was he not in the grasp????

[BillJasper]

Indianapolis Colts vs. New England Patriots - Box Score - December 04, 2011 - ESPN (http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=311204017)

Objection! Assumes Facts not in evidence!

They gave up three TD's in the fourth quarter but two of those were in the final 2:12. They were never in danger of losing that game as they still won by seven. :D

[tucker rocky]

Tebow pulled a Houdini.

[SirFozzie]

DO NOT slow down Pats. Get another TD.

EDIT: OW. Purfect Blitz and Brady takes a major league SMACK

[BillJasper]

You don't see Brady get tattoed like that too often.

[BillJasper]

Nice tackle by Slater.

[Pumpy Tudors]

wait so it is possible to hit a quarterback hard without spearing him in the helmet or taking out his knees what is this

[TroyF]

Ahh, what the hell, lets, ya know start in the shotgun, throw in on first down a couple of times and see what happens. Down 18 points, why the hell not.

[mauchow]

What a hit on Brady. Hit him good on the arm. He'll have a nice bruise on that tomorrow.

[Buccaneer]

Man do the Broncos have some ugly uniforms! I miss the Orange Crush days.

They are switching to a home orange uniform next season.

[SirFozzie]

And that's how you stop Tebow from running, pressure on the sides while the middle holds their ground

[SirFozzie]

and if he has 9-10 seconds, that's what happenes

[BillJasper]

They are switching to a home orange uniform next season.

Let's hope it's white pants to go with the orange jerseys. Or else they'll look like giant orange popsicles. :lol:

[TroyF]

Why? Why? Why?

Feel free to tell me if I'm wrong here, but is Tebow throwing the ball any worse than other QB's in this league? Yes, he struggles against pressure and his WR suck at getting open, but is there any rational reason for running on 18 of your first 22 first down plays?

[stevew]

This Cardinals/Browns game is a real barnburner.

[sabotai]

The Eagles just scored a TD in the 4th quarter! Inconceivable!

[tucker rocky]

45-13 Eagles.

[TroyF]

Lions just scored a TD on the Raiders. Down 7 with five minutes and two timeouts left.

[TroyF]

Lions actually down 6.

[SnowMan]

I feel dirty rooting for the Raiders.

[cougarfreak]

Looks like the Bengals are right back into the playoff hunt after this week.

[BillJasper]

Gotta cover the tight ends.

[Danny]

NE is having too easy a time on offense for Tebow to work his magic today. He's played pretty well but his teams turnovers and defensive play has done them in

[TroyF]

Only chance is to hold the Pats to a FG here. TD ends the game.

Do we actually have a flag against the Patriots? Seriously? Wow.

[SirFozzie]

Come on Pats, get sevem here. End it.

[SnowMan]

Wait. You mean to say Tebow doesn't win games all by himself??? Blasphemy!!

[tucker rocky]

Denver fans really think another magic trick is going to be pulled today?

[Julio Riddols]

Well, here is where the miracle has to occur.. IF the Broncos recover a fumble for a TD right now, I am betting 100 on them for the super bowl.

[RendeR]

If the scores hold there is a 3-way tie for the 6 spot in the AFC, Raiders and Bengals beat out the Jets on Conference record, Looks to me like the Raiders beat the Bengals on common opponents (they both played Cleveland, Denver, Buffalo and one more, Raiders 3-1 Bengals 1-3) Can someone verify my info?

Would love to see the Lions come back and drop Oakland a game behind us. Much more comfortable controlling our destiny than trying to hope someone else blows it.

[SirFozzie]

you almost get the feeling with the repeated bradysneaks they want to get three cracks at it and run a lot of time off the clock

[TroyF]

Denver fans really think another magic trick is going to be pulled today?

The more I see, the more I'm convinced. It isn't magic tricks. It's actually letting the QB play the game. They lost this game with a few turnovers in the second quarter and uber conservatism the rest of the game. There is no logical reason to keep this pound and ground stuff going. He's not throwing the ball that poorly. (in fact, I'll argue he's throwing it at a very good level right now) The reason he plays well in the fourth quarter is because that's when the Broncos open the game up.

I'm more convinced than ever this kid can play.

[SirFozzie]

Oh jeez.

[Lathum]

Oh man, Denver player down and not moving

[Lathum]

and he is up

[SirFozzie]

and that should be that.

[Julio Riddols]

And the AFC playoff picture gets further muddled.. Everything under the top 4 is a mess.

[Lathum]

How do you lode Megatron there?

[BillJasper]

I think Tebow can play in a non-traditional offense where they limit what he's asked to do in the air. If it wasn't for 'ground and pound' teams would be teeing off on him and he would have already flunked out of the league.

[TroyF]

Johnson catches a bomb at the 13 yard line. 1 minute left, Detroit trying to win the game.

[SirFozzie]

So far they've played the RAW theme and now Enter Sandman.. are the Broncos expecting Sandman to show up in the second deck, walk around the stadium whike the song's playing, and then come in and cane all the Patriots players on the sideline?

[tucker rocky]

Lions trying to pull one out in Oakland.

[Crapshoot]

Wow Oakland. what an epic failure. And bravo to Calvin Johnson.

[cougarfreak]

If the scores hold there is a 3-way tie for the 6 spot in the AFC, Raiders and Bengals beat out the Jets on Conference record, Looks to me like the Raiders beat the Bengals on common opponents (they both played Cleveland, Denver, Buffalo and one more, Raiders 3-1 Bengals 1-3) Can someone verify my info?

Would love to see the Lions come back and drop Oakland a game behind us. Much more comfortable controlling our destiny than trying to hope someone else blows it.

Do you mean the Bengals beat the Raiders? The Bengals are 3-1 against those teams, they beat Cleveland 2x, beat Buffalo, and lost to Denver.

[RendeR]

WHOOO Bengals back in the 6 spot!

[TroyF]

I think Tebow can play in a non-traditional offense where they limit what he's asked to do in the air. If it wasn't for 'ground and pound' teams would be teeing off on him and he would have already flunked out of the league.

What makes you say that? I'm not being a dick here, but what have you seen today that any young QB does? He's made good throws, made good decisions, He's been accurate with the ball both short and deep. Why exactly do people think he can't throw the football?

Does he struggle to make some reads? Yeah, he does. But has he made some terrific reads? Has he been accurate with his throws?

I guess i don't get the opinion he can't throw it anymore. he's throwing it as well as any young QB in the game as long as he has a chance to throw it.

[kingfc22]

Wow Oakland. what an epic failure. And bravo to Calvin Johnson.

Can't wait to hear Hue after this one.

[tucker rocky]

Oakland= Faiders

[RendeR]

Do you mean the Bengals beat the Raiders? The Bengals are 3-1 against those teams, they beat Cleveland 2x, beat Buffalo, and lost to Denver.


yeah I'm not sure how they handle the multi-game thing within the 4 common games minimum. and I think I messed up my count as I was reading.


HOWEVER, thanks to the Raiders totally NARFING the end of this game up and megatron eating them alive, it really doesn't matter =)

[TroyF]

Lions stuff the Raiders at the 14 on the kick. Raiders have 1 timeout and 35 seconds to get into FG range.

[tucker rocky]

Didn't Oakland do this against Buffalo earlier this season?

[Crapshoot]

Roffle - Tebow just kept running backwards for a 29 yard sack!

[stevew]

That was the worst sack ever.

[RendeR]

Oh come ON defense, WTF?

[BillJasper]

What makes you say that? I'm not being a dick here, but what have you seen today that any young QB does? He's made good throws, made good decisions, He's been accurate with the ball both short and deep. Why exactly do people think he can't throw the football?

Does he struggle to make some reads? Yeah, he does. But has he made some terrific reads? Has he been accurate with his throws?

I guess i don't get the opinion he can't throw it anymore. he's throwing it as well as any young QB in the game as long as he has a chance to throw it.

Do you think he could throw it fifty times a game and be consistently successful? Do you think he could be successful without the read option elements Denver has incorporated into its offense?

Monster sack.

[TroyF]

That was the worst sack ever.

Why? Throwing the ball away does nothing on 4th and 17. He was trying to get into a position to throw the ball. If that was a standard game situation he launches it toward the sideline. The game situation dictated he hold on until he could make a throw in the field of play.

[kingfc22]

65-66 yd FG for the win coming up

[RendeR]

WOOOOOO!

[TroyF]

Do you think he could throw it fifty times a game and be consistently successful? Do you think he could be successful without the read option elements Denver has incorporated into its offense?

Monster sack.

Yeah, I do. He's throwing the ball accurately. Would he take some sacks? Would he make some wrong decisions? Of course. But I also think the game would slow down for him and he'd get better at all of that. Yeah, I think he could play a conventional offense.

[BillJasper]

To me, the Denver offensive coordinator should win coach of the year honors.

[TroyF]

Lions win.

[Grover]

That was the best sack ever.

Fixed.

[Matthean]

Al Davis probably still doesn't think Megatron is that good.

[TroyF]

To me, the Denver offensive coordinator should win coach of the year honors.


Could you tell me why he can't do it? What did you see about any of his throws today that showed he can't throw the ball. I'm wondering if you are watching the same game I am.

[Grover]

Tebow's refusal to throw into coverage is really quite amazing.

[tucker rocky]

Ball game right there for Arz.

[cougarfreak]

So, who wins the tie breaker for the NYJ and Cin?

[rowech]

So, who wins the tie breaker for the NYJ and Cin?

According to my brother who is a Jets fan, the Bengals.

[tucker rocky]

Arizona with another OT win.

[kingfc22]

Cards remain hot. Wouldn't want to face them in the WC round.

[RendeR]

So, who wins the tie breaker for the NYJ and Cin?




Bengals have a better conference record. CIncy in the 6 spot right now.

[BillJasper]

Could you tell me why he can't do it? What did you see about any of his throws today that showed he can't throw the ball. I'm wondering if you are watching the same game I am.

I never said he couldn't throw it. I said he benefits immensely from Denver tailoring the offense to his strengths. I've seen quite a few wild throws, seen him be unable to pick up certain blitzes and seen him run backwards 29 yards. He continues to be a sub 50 percent passer. He benefits from being able to make plays with his feet and defenses have to respect that.

I like the kid, I think he has a lot of heart and love for the game. But if you try to turn him into a pocket passer you'll simply end up with someone like Curtis Painter. He had a slow delivery and is slow to read defenses.

If you try to turn him into a conventional QB you might as well end his career.

[larrymcg421]

Bengals have a better conference record. CIncy in the 6 spot right now.

They're both 6-5. Red Zone channel just showed it with the Jets in the 6 spot.

[Matthean]

I never said he couldn't throw it. I said he benefits immensely from Denver tailoring the offense to his strengths. I've seen quite a few wild throws, seen him be unable to pick up certain blitzes and seen him run backwards 29 yards. He continues to be a sub 50 percent passer. He benefits from being able to make plays with his feet and defenses have to respect that.

I like the kid, I think he has a lot of heart and love for the game. But if you try to turn him into a pocket passer you'll simply end up with someone like Curtis Painter. He had a slow delivery and is slow to read defenses.

If you try to turn him into a conventional QB you might as well end his career.

+1. See also Detroit Lions vs. Denver Broncos - Recap - October 30, 2011 - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=311030007) Even if 39 passes are on the high side, Stafford in a 45-10 blowout threw 32. Even running an offense that is much more tailored to his style, he completed 50% of his passes against NE. Tebow in a conventional offense isn't going to work.

[tucker rocky]

QB 101 is over for today Tim.

I hope you learned something today on how an offense is supposed to be run.

[rowech]

ESPN has Jets ahead of Bengals because of common games.

[JPhillips]

If they end tied it's hard to see the Bengals coming out on top.

Head-to-head, if applicable.
Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.
Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games, minimum of four.
Strength of victory.
Strength of schedule.
Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed.
Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed.
Best net points in conference games.
Best net points in all games.
Best net touchdowns in all games.
Coin toss.

[RendeR]

Hrm, yeah they lost to an NFC team today so they are tied in conference,

how do they handle "common opponents" when the jets played the Bills twice but the Bengals only played them once? Do they count 2 games or just 1?

If its just one game then common games is a tie as well 2-2 each. If they count twice then the jets get the nod.

[RendeR]

I think they might get the nod in strength of schedule though.


gah, I hate tie breaker procedures that aren't cut and dried.

[Arles]

Jesus decided to keep Tebow humble and not let him win today. But, he did help the Raiders lose so the net result is the same :)

[Matthean]

Lions also two games up for the wild card spot and they beat Dallas.

[rowech]

If they end tied it's hard to see the Bengals coming out on top.

Head-to-head, if applicable.
Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.
Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games, minimum of four.
Strength of victory.
Strength of schedule.
Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed.
Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed.
Best net points in conference games.
Best net points in all games.
Best net touchdowns in all games.
Coin toss.

Bengals will have to win one more than Jets. If they both win the same number I think Bengals lose on 3rd or 4th tie breaker.

Right now, Jets are 3-2 in common games, Bengals 2-2. Beat Ravens and they're 3-2 but I don't think they can overcome SOV difference. Going to need to win both and Jets lose one or the other I think.

[RendeR]

Yeah, makes it simpler if that happens too =)

[sabotai]

Hrm, yeah they lost to an NFC team today so they are tied in conference,

how do they handle "common opponents" when the jets played the Bills twice but the Bengals only played them once? Do they count 2 games or just 1?

If its just one game then common games is a tie as well 2-2 each. If they count twice then the jets get the nod.

My google-fu failed to produce anything from an authoritative source, but I did find a few postings on various message boards saying that the tie-breaker is based on winning percentage vs. common opponents, so in that case, both Jets vs. Bills games would count. And it's a minimum of 4 common opponents, not 4 games. So if they only share 3 common opponents in 4 games, it goes to the next tie-breaker step.

[RendeR]

So basically Bengals fans become fans of the Niners so that The Ravens have little or nothing to play for in week 17, as well as becoming Giants and Dolphins fans in the hopes that the jets can really blow it and lose both games =)

[TroyF]

I never said he couldn't throw it. I said he benefits immensely from Denver tailoring the offense to his strengths. I've seen quite a few wild throws, seen him be unable to pick up certain blitzes and seen him run backwards 29 yards. He continues to be a sub 50 percent passer. He benefits from being able to make plays with his feet and defenses have to respect that.

I like the kid, I think he has a lot of heart and love for the game. But if you try to turn him into a pocket passer you'll simply end up with someone like Curtis Painter. He had a slow delivery and is slow to read defenses.

If you try to turn him into a conventional QB you might as well end his career.

1) He was 10-16 in the relevant part of the game. He went 1-5 on the last two desperation drives.
2) The 29 yard loss was on 4th and 17, a spot he has to throw it in bounds.
3) He didn't make many wild throws today, if any.
4) He hasn't been a sub 50% passer for a month now.

[BillJasper]

His listed completion rate is 48.5 according to nfl.com and was 20 for 41 last week. I saw several throws the were at the feet of receivers or five yards out of bounds. If you have a different definition of wild that's fine.

But my point stands that he succeeds because of 'ground and pound' not in spite of it.

[JPhillips]

So basically Bengals fans become fans of the Niners so that The Ravens have little or nothing to play for in week 17, as well as becoming Giants and Dolphins fans in the hopes that the jets can really blow it and lose both games =)

Exactly. The Bengals need to win out and the Jets need to lose to the Giants.

I think the most likely outcome is Bengals at 9-7 and one game out of the playoffs. Can't complain though, as I thought they'd win 4-6 games. However, playoffs and a third place schedule next year would be very nice.

[Arles]

I'll never understand why Denver cut Orton. The last game against Orton and KC could be needed for the division. If Orton comes back to keep them from the division, it's going to haunt Elway...

[Matthean]

4) He hasn't been a sub 50% passer for a month now.

He was 50% in two games. He was 21-40 in another. The only standout game was a mere 10-15. In other words, he's 6 passes above 50% in a month running an offense that is geared towards him. One of the two 50% games was against the 32nd ranked passing defense in terms of yards.

[stevew]

Why? Throwing the ball away does nothing on 4th and 17. He was trying to get into a position to throw the ball. If that was a standard game situation he launches it toward the sideline. The game situation dictated he hold on until he could make a throw in the field of play.

Someone should set it to the Benny Hill music.

Actually I didn't know it was 4th down. God and I had both stopped watching the game at that point.

[DaddyTorgo]

Why? Throwing the ball away does nothing on 4th and 17. He was trying to get into a position to throw the ball. If that was a standard game situation he launches it toward the sideline. The game situation dictated he hold on until he could make a throw in the field of play.

This.

Tebow's passing wasn't the reason they lost or didn't win today. The turnovers killed Denver.

[BillJasper]

The Broncos had 252 rushing yards to 141 passing. Tebow completed 50% of his passes but to only four receivers. Thomas had seven catches the other three receivers had four combined. They were able to exploit the Patriots secondary on the deep sideline a few times because the corners were constantly in no mans land. Run deep with Thomas and Tebow exploits you by running up the sideline where the corners vacated.

Tebow simply doesnt have the passing windows if the secondary isn't afraid of him running with the ball. He carried 12 times for 93yards and 2 touchdowns today. Many of his big passing plays we're made after he left the pocket.

[RendeR]

Exactly. The Bengals need to win out and the Jets need to lose to the Giants.

I think the most likely outcome is Bengals at 9-7 and one game out of the playoffs. Can't complain though, as I thought they'd win 4-6 games. However, playoffs and a third place schedule next year would be very nice.



Hell yes!

[Grover]

I'm on the fence about the Bengals getting in, of course I'd love to, but in the same vein I'd like Oakland to sneak in and somehow make it to the AFC title game for that second first round pick.

[RendeR]

A first and a second AND a playoff appearance AND a 3rd place schedule in 2012 >>>>>>>>>>>> than 2 firsts.






updated.

[Grover]

A first and a second AND a playoff game >>>> than 2 firsts.

I agree, but I don't think we're ready for a playoff game. Yes, we kept it close with Pittsburgh and Baltimore on the first go around, but getting crushed at home by the Steelers and not being able to close out Houston has me worried. Granted, I'd like another crack at Houston if they finish with the 3 seed.

[Antmeister]

Chargers looking good on this drive. Need this for the entire game.

[RendeR]

I think whatever team gets hot right now and rolls into the playoffs winning and positive will have as good a shot as anyone.

I want the Bengals to be that team.

Hope springs. (and coming from a 30 year fan thats saying a LOT)

[Grover]

I think whatever team gets hot right now and rolls into the playoffs winning and positive will have as good a shot as anyone.

I want the Bengals to be that team.

Hope springs. (and coming from a 30 year fan thats saying a LOT)

I've been a fan since 1990 (6-7 years old) and I've seen three playoff seasons in my life. I've never been as excited about a Bengals team as I am about this one. I know Arizona can be beaten and it's a huge positive to get to play Baltimore at PBS. Really hope they can sell out these last two games to get some support.

[Matthean]

Interesting to see Baltimore be the #1 seed if they win and #5 if they lose.

[Matthean]

Lions also two games up for the wild card spot and they beat Dallas.

I ran ESPN's playoff machine. It looks like the Lions lose out in most situations if they lose two. Lions haven't won at GB in forever, but I'm not sure how motivated GB would be this time either. The game against SD is huge.

[SirFozzie]

suggs with the rarely called 15 yard "pimpslap". penalty Deacon Jones would be proud of him.

[cartman]

I hope that the Packers loss doesn't drop them out of the top 2, so they still have a chance to play for the championship.

[SirFozzie]

Considering the past history between the Chargers and the Pats, it feels weird to be rooting for em. But the Pats need losses by both the Chargers and the Steelers if we're going to get the 1 see in the AFC (and winning both of our remaining games of course)

[Grover]

I hope that the Packers loss doesn't drop them out of the top 2, so they still have a chance to play for the championship.

Losing to the unranked Chiefs really hurts their chances, we'll see what the voters say on Tuesday morning.

[stevew]

I'm a huge chargers fan right now.

[jbergey22]

Rivers is on his game tonight.

[Grover]

Rivers is on his game tonight.

Can't say the same for Flaccbert.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Great win by the Lions today. To go 98 yards in under 2:00 minutes with no timeouts was really impressive. Stafford and Johnson made a ton of clutch plays in the last five minutes or so of that game.

To be able to come back from 13 down at the end of the game on the road is impressive. That said, it still wasn't a complete game.

The banged up secondary made Palmer look like the Palmer of old and Heyward-Bey look like the seventh pick overall. The vaunted front four rarely put any pressure on Palmer.

The offense still disappears for long stretches at a time and still hasn't found a running game. Until those final two drives, they had done nothing in the second half.

They still take too many penalties. The penalties and their inability to cover screens and how badly they get burned on misdirection plays are all evidence of their overall lack of discipline on defense.

Still, the Lions are only one win away from securing a playoff spot for the first time over a decade and the have their first winning season in ages.

Based on how well the Chargers have looked the last couple of weeks and tonight and based on the fact that the Lions haven't won in Green Bay in about 20 years, getting that last win necessary to clinch could be really tough.

[jbergey22]

The offense still disappears for long stretches at a time and still hasn't found a running game. Until those final two drives, they had done nothing in the second half.


Maybe Stafford figured out that hes a better QB when he throws it to megatron even when double covered. No reason for him to not have 12-15 targets a game.

[stevew]

The show "Rob" on CBS looks horrible

[bhlloy]

Go Chargers! Look like the best team in the NFL now that you basically left it too late and have to rely on other teams losing!

Fucking Norv Turner, he's saving his job and we're going to miss the playoffs again. This is like a really bad joke. At least a 5-11 season would have got his pock faced ugly ass canned.

[tucker rocky]

Sunday night game moving along at an amazing clip, though it was over at halftime. :lol:

[tucker rocky]

What happened to the Ravens vaunted defense tonight?
Must be something about east coast teams playing on the west coast.

Ravens crapped out in Seattle earlier this season.

[Matthean]

What happened to the Ravens vaunted defense tonight?
Must be something about east coast teams playing on the west coast.

Ravens crapped out in Seattle earlier this season.

Long travels screw teams over. Teams like Arizona and Seattle tend to be harder to win at for teams. In college, Pac-12 and Big Ten games are largely decided on what team has to travel.

[Julio Riddols]

Man, starting Philip Rivers against the Ravens instead of Roethlisberger was the best decision I made all year in fantasy football. Lathum probably hates Rivers and the Ravens D right now.

[Lathum]

Man, starting Philip Rivers against the Ravens instead of Roethlisberger was the best decision I made all year in fantasy football. Lathum probably hates Rivers and the Ravens D right now.

You beat me by .80

[Julio Riddols]

My point exactly.

[Rizon]

Tebow!!!!!!!!!!

[tucker rocky]

Tebow!!!!!!!!!!

Got nothing, He lost. :)

[Autumn]

Got nothing, He lost. :)

There must have been some mistake. I'm sure the NFL will issue a correction soon.

[jbergey22]

Yeah, I do. He's throwing the ball accurately. Would he take some sacks? Would he make some wrong decisions? Of course. But I also think the game would slow down for him and he'd get better at all of that. Yeah, I think he could play a conventional offense.

If by conventional you mean the Mike Shanahan offense where the QB is running a lot of bootlegs than yes. He clearly is not comfortable in the pocket on 5-7 step drops. He either doesnt trust his arm or his offensive line at this point because he is constantly looking to throw from anywhere but the pocket. This is leading to a lot of his sacks.

[Blackadar]

1) He was 10-16 in the relevant part of the game. He went 1-5 on the last two desperation drives.
2) The 29 yard loss was on 4th and 17, a spot he has to throw it in bounds.
3) He didn't make many wild throws today, if any.
4) He hasn't been a sub 50% passer for a month now.


Just like I don't think Tebow deserves much of the credit for the recent winning streak, I don't think he deserves much of the blame for this loss. The winning formula for Denver was no turnovers, giving the other team a long field to play with, running the ball to eat the clock, playing smart defense and then winning against a tired defense in the 4th. It's worked very well and Tebow executed when he had to. In this game, from the coaching staff on down, Denver fucked up.

1. 3 fumbles lost, all in their own end. That's 13 points right there. That's the kiss of death for most teams and Denver was no exception.
2. Stupid play calling gave NE 3 points right at the end of the half. That was a real poor job by Fox and Company.
3. Dumb penalties, including a hands to the face by a DL on a 3rd and 24 for a free first down.
4. Poor defensive consistency, especially against a weak NE running game. They looked off-balance for almost the entire 2nd and 3rd quarters.
5. Shaky offensive performance by Tebow, though he wasn't the reason they lost. Still, when they needed him most (while the game was in reach in the 2nd and 3rd quarters), he put the ball on the ground twice and had a couple of 3 and outs. Their drives were fumble, fumble, punt, punt, punt...that's where they lost the game.

---

If Tebow gets 5-6 seconds to pass, he can find someone down the field. He can extend plays with his legs. If he gets outside the pocket, he can be dangerous as well (that 30 yard run was a beaut) because he can run or throw the little dump pass to an open RB. But I don't think I saw him hit a timing pattern at all today and that's a problem. He's going to have major problems against better defenses if he can't hit the quick slant or other timing patterns.

---

Sometimes it's not about who you play, but when you play them. Denver's recent 7-1 streak exemplifies that to the nth degree.


Beat winless Miami
Lost to Detriot
Beat Oakland with a new QB (Palmer) who hadn't played in a year throwing 3 ints.
Beat KC when Cassel went down.
Beat the Jets, who were on a short week and coming off an emotional loss to NE.
Beat SD, who was finishing up 5 straight losses and missed a FG to lose.
Beat Minn without AP.
Beat Chicago without Cutler and Forte.


That's still a 7-1 record, but you won't see a "softer" winning streak all year. I expect Denver to beat a badly slumping Buffalo team and make the playoffs. After that, we'll see how they do against a tough defense because they'll play either Pittsburgh or Baltimore.

[gstelmack]

My comment on the Denver / New England game: how was it that New England of all teams was the first to finally get pressure on Tebow?

[bronconick]

My comment on the Denver / New England game: how was it that New England of all teams was the first to finally get pressure on Tebow?


They weren't. They were just the first ones to keep doing it all game long. Even Detroit went into a soft zone for most of the 4th, they were just up 45-3 when they did so. Everyone else pressured him for 3.5 quarters and then played prevent/soft nickel that he picked apart for a miraculous comeback.

[gstelmack]

They weren't. They were just the first ones to keep doing it all game long. Even Detroit went into a soft zone for most of the 4th, they were just up 45-3 when they did so. Everyone else pressured him for 3.5 quarters and then played prevent/soft nickel that he picked apart for a miraculous comeback.

Wow, you're right. It was the first opportunity I'd had to seem him actually play, and I had kept hearing about is running / scrambling and must have just jumped to the conclusion that this meant he hadn't been sacked much. I checked his stats and am surprised to see that he's been sacked 23 times already, that didn't match up with my impression of his scrambling ability.

[stevew]

I can't believe Baltimore shit the bed. Pittsburgh better seize this chance and win tonight/rest of the season. The last two games are vs the Rams and Browns.

[cartman]

If Tebow gets 5-6 seconds to pass, he can find someone down the field.

If a QB can't find someone in 5-6 seconds, they don't even belong on the practice squad.

[JPhillips]

Not your typical sack picture.

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/entry_photo_images/2489185/135962279_extra_large.jpg

[MikeVic]

I can't believe Baltimore shit the bed. Pittsburgh better seize this chance and win tonight/rest of the season. The last two games are vs the Rams and Browns.

Yup. Very nice opportunity here to get a bye and heal up. Rams and Browns aren't gimmes (I just don't think that exists in the NFL), but they should be very winnable games. The big test is tonight, and I wonder if the other brother is helping with the game plan. :)

[Honolulu_Blue]

I can't believe Baltimore shit the bed. Pittsburgh better seize this chance and win tonight/rest of the season. The last two games are vs the Rams and Browns.

I didn't find it too suprising for a number of reasons:

(1) East coast teams tend to struggle when playing on the West Coast.

(2) The Chargers have been playing very well of late and rarely lose in December.

(3) The Ravens aren't a particularly good road team and have "shit the bed" on the road on a number of occassions already this year against teams worse than the Chargers (see, e.g., Titans, Jaguars and Sehawks).

Still, you would hope they would perform a little better.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Yup. Very nice opportunity here to get a bye and heal up. Rams and Browns aren't gimmes (I just don't think that exists in the NFL), but they should be very winnable games. The big test is tonight, and I wonder if the other brother is helping with the game plan. :)

Looking ahead to possible playoff implications, I kind of hope that the Steelers win. If the Lions do end up making the playoffs, I would much rather see them face San Fran in the first round than the Saints.

[Arles]

If the Steelers win tonight, yesterday's loss may work out well for the Pack. Now, they don't have to chase 16-0 and can start resting a very weary OL and LB crew.

[Honolulu_Blue]

If the Steelers win tonight, yesterday's loss may work out well for the Pack. Now, they don't have to chase 16-0 and can start resting a very weary OL and LB crew.

This is exactly why I was hoping for the Packers to lose a game. I would prefer them not to have things wrapped up until after next week, so they can decide to rest everyone come the final game of the season against the Lions.

Well, that and I just didn't want to see the Packers go undefeated.

[BillJasper]

If a QB can't find someone in 5-6 seconds, they don't even belong on the practice squad.

I saw somewhere that a QB has, on average, 3.3 seconds to find a receiver and get the ball out.

[Rizon]

Not your typical sack picture.

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/entry_photo_images/2489185/135962279_extra_large.jpg

Oh man, that was an awesome sack by Tebow.

[Rizon]

If a QB can't find someone in 5-6 seconds, they don't even belong on the practice squad.

I saw somewhere that a QB has, on average, 3.3 seconds to find a receiver and get the ball out.

Can someone forward this message to Carson Palmer? Dude holds on to his balls more than I did when I had to survive in a snowcave for 2 days.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Can someone forward this message to Carson Palmer? Dude holds on to his balls more than I did when I had to survive in a snowcave for 2 days.

That last sack by Avril was particularly bad in this regard. I was pretty impressed the Palmer was able to hold onto the ball.

[JediKooter]

You stupid bi-polar Chargers!!!! Agghgghhhhhgfhghghggh!!!

At least they murdered the Ravens D last night (sorry Ray...too soon?). Oh and Ray, you look slow and old. I guess all that yelling and chest thumping didn't work last night.

[jbergey22]

I saw somewhere that a QB has, on average, 3.3 seconds to find a receiver and get the ball out.


3.3 was Tebows median average time his first game which is extremely slow. Big Ben is considered to have a slow release and his is 2.7. The offensive changes have helped bring this down to a more reasonable level.



Here is the full article

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | Under Pressure: Tebow's Throws (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/under-pressure/2011/under-pressure-tebows-throws)

[BillJasper]

3.3 was Tebows median average time his first few starts which is extremely slow. Big Ben is considered to have a slow release and his is 2.7.

Here is the full article

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | Under Pressure: Tebow's Throws (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/under-pressure/2011/under-pressure-tebows-throws)

Thanks for the correction. :D

[jbergey22]

Thanks for the correction. :D

No prob. I actually wanted to find that article again anyway in case Troy wants to continue on about Tebow in a conventional offense;)

[SunDevil]

3.3 was Tebows median average time his first game which is extremely slow. Big Ben is considered to have a slow release and his is 2.7. The offensive changes have helped bring this down to a more reasonable level.



Here is the full article

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | Under Pressure: Tebow's Throws (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/under-pressure/2011/under-pressure-tebows-throws)

This article is also a month old.

[jbergey22]

This article is also a month old.

I havent seen a newer study. I mean they have plenty of other articles talking about him but this is the only one that I seen that used specific times on his release and improved release time with the unconventional offense.

But really this tells a lot of us what we see. He looks fine on 3 step drops while anything deeper he tends to hold the ball and not get through his progressions. He wants to get outside of the pocket and either run or find a WR off of a broken down defense.

Overall, Tebow’s success has largely come when he gets the ball out quickly. For all his mobility, when he’s held the ball for more than three seconds, very few good things have happened.

[Suburban Rhythm]

You stupid bi-polar Chargers!!!! Agghgghhhhhgfhghghggh!!!

At least they murdered the Ravens D last night (sorry Ray...too soon?). Oh and Ray, you look slow and old. I guess all that yelling and chest thumping didn't work last night.

The play that Tolbert caught the pass and put the spin move on RayRay to gain another 12-15 yards...had the game been in Baltimore, he would have been credited with a tackle because he made the initial contact.

[PilotMan]

This might be the funniest comment I've read this week. In response to this article (http://deadspin.com/5869388/ron-rivera-says-the-panthers-trick-play-yesterday-was-inspired-by-the-movie-little-giants) on Deadspin.

Ron Rivera Says The Panthers’ Trick Play Yesterday Was Inspired By The Movie Little Giants

This comment appeared at the bottom:

Bill Belichick says the Patriots' entire playbook was inspired by the movie Denver Broncos' Team Practice and Walkthru, Week 15.

I wanted to fall out of my chair.

[Matthean]

At least they murdered the Ravens D last night (sorry Ray...too soon?). Oh and Ray, you look slow and old. I guess all that yelling and chest thumping didn't work last night.

Baltimore went undefeated with him out.

[JediKooter]

The play that Tolbert caught the pass and put the spin move on RayRay to gain another 12-15 yards...had the game been in Baltimore, he would have been credited with a tackle because he made the initial contact.

Exactly. I think he gets credited for sacks, even when he's on the sideline. Talk about over rated...Ray Lewis ladies and gentlemen. In his prime, he was at the top. Now, not so much and is really nothing more than a bullhorn for the defense. He looked old and slow and got beat a lot of times last night.


Baltimore went undefeated with him out.

Maybe he should have sat out last night? ;)
However, I'm pissed that the Chargers won and now if Denver and Oakland lose one of two and the Chargers win their last two (Detroit & Oakland), they will probably make the playoffs. This won't help getting rid of Norv and AJ Smith. So thanks Ravens D, for not showing up last night. :banghead:

[Honolulu_Blue]

However, I'm pissed that the Chargers won and now if Denver and Oakland lose one of two and the Chargers win their last two (Detroit & Oakland), they will probably make the playoffs. This won't help getting rid of Norv and AJ Smith. So thanks Ravens D, for not showing up last night. :banghead:

Huh. So, is this what happens to fans when their team starts making the playoffs every year? They start rooting against them to NOT make the playoffs so they can see some front office changes?

If so, I look forward to that day...

Hell, even during the crazy Wayne Fontes era, I desperately wanted the Lions to make the playoffs every year, Wayne's fate be damned!

I guess a lot has changed over the 12 years since the Lions last made the playoffs. I look forward to experiencing this new world. Hopefully beginning this year.

[Antmeister]

...However, I'm pissed that the Chargers won and now if Denver and Oakland lose one of two and the Chargers win their last two (Detroit & Oakland), they will probably make the playoffs. This won't help getting rid of Norv and AJ Smith. So thanks Ravens D, for not showing up last night. :banghead:

This. Knowing that this is going to be a good opportunity to finally get a good head coach after that 6 game losing streak, I don't need to see them make a run like they did 2 years before to save the coach's ass. Not sure if you listen to the Scott and BR show, but Lorenzo Neal (former player on the team) illustrated why the Chargers have been inconsistent.

[JediKooter]

Huh. So, is this what happens to fans when their team starts making the playoffs every year? They start rooting against them to NOT make the playoffs so they can see some front office changes?

If so, I look forward to that day...

Hell, even during the crazy Wayne Fontes era, I desperately wanted the Lions to make the playoffs every year, Wayne's fate be damned!

I guess a lot has changed over the 12 years since the Lions last made the playoffs. I look forward to experiencing this new world. Hopefully beginning this year.

As a Lions fan, you should be able to appreciate the long playoff droughts and futility year after year and understand why a coach and a GM are just not right for a particular team. AJ Smith and Norv Turner are the complete opposite of what the Chargers need. AJ is too stubborn to realize his mistakes and Norv doesn't have the personality to lead the Chargers to the promised land. The Chargers making the playoffs would probably only continue the agony. If they stay it will always be, 'such a talented team, but, just can't get it done'. I'm tired of it and I believe that only a change at both of those spots is the right thing to do.

Don't get me wrong, I love it when the Chargers make the playoffs. Especially if they won the division. But lets be honest here. They are not being led by a championship front office or head coach, so, the sooner they go, the sooner I think the Chargers have a legitimate shot at winning the big one...Well, depending on who replaces them. There is always the "law of unintended consequences". :)

[JediKooter]

This. Knowing that this is going to be a good opportunity to finally get a good head coach after that 6 game losing streak, I don't need to see them make a run like they did 2 years before to save the coach's ass. Not sure if you listen to the Scott and BR show, but Lorenzo Neal (former player on the team) illustrated why the Chargers have been inconsistent.

Oh how I miss Lorenzo! Another gift from Norv "We don't need fullbacks" Turner.

Is that show streamed or archived anywhere? I'd love to hear what he had to say.

[Honolulu_Blue]

As a Lions fan, you should be able to appreciate the long playoff droughts and futility year after year and understand why a coach and a GM are just not right for a particular team. AJ Smith and Norv Turner are the complete opposite of what the Chargers need. AJ is too stubborn to realize his mistakes and Norv doesn't have the personality to lead the Chargers to the promised land. The Chargers making the playoffs would probably only continue the agony. If they stay it will always be, 'such a talented team, but, just can't get it done'. I'm tired of it and I believe that only a change at both of those spots is the right thing to do.

Don't get me wrong, I love it when the Chargers make the playoffs. Especially if they won the division. But lets be honest here. They are not being led by a championship front office or head coach, so, the sooner they go, the sooner I think the Chargers have a legitimate shot at winning the big one...Well, depending on who replaces them. There is always the "law of unintended consequences". :)

It's all relative and a matter of expectations.

Here, you are rooting for your team to lose games not make the playoffs becuase the current leadership of your organization, which has led your team to the playoffs in three out of the four last years and has led your team to winning seasons in three out of the last four years, isn't good enough to get that next step...

My point is that I'd love to get to a point where making the playoffs on a consistent basis and consecutive winning seasons just "isn't enough".

Even when the Lions were toying with that kind of success in the Wayne Fontes/Barry Sanders era, I still never rooted them to lose games and miss the playoffs, regardless of whether Wayne would be fired. So, either I have never gotten to that point because the Lions weren't consistently good enough for me to reach it or I wasn't seeing the bigger picture.

That said, I would never want Norv Turner to be my head coach. I don't think he's a very good head coach.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Hell, I'm just thrilled that the Chiefs still have a shot to win the division. I'll take that given what kind of a season they've had thus far.

[Antmeister]

Oh how I miss Lorenzo! Another gift from Norv "We don't need fullbacks" Turner.

Is that show streamed or archived anywhere? I'd love to hear what he had to say.

Here you go:
Lorenzo Neal Interview (http://wpc.31d2.edgecastcdn.net/8031D2/xxsportsl/common/global_audio/40/43274.mp3)

[TroyF]

Just like I don't think Tebow deserves much of the credit for the recent winning streak, I don't think he deserves much of the blame for this loss. The winning formula for Denver was no turnovers, giving the other team a long field to play with, running the ball to eat the clock, playing smart defense and then winning against a tired defense in the 4th. It's worked very well and Tebow executed when he had to. In this game, from the coaching staff on down, Denver fucked up.

1. 3 fumbles lost, all in their own end. That's 13 points right there. That's the kiss of death for most teams and Denver was no exception.
2. Stupid play calling gave NE 3 points right at the end of the half. That was a real poor job by Fox and Company.
3. Dumb penalties, including a hands to the face by a DL on a 3rd and 24 for a free first down.
4. Poor defensive consistency, especially against a weak NE running game. They looked off-balance for almost the entire 2nd and 3rd quarters.
5. Shaky offensive performance by Tebow, though he wasn't the reason they lost. Still, when they needed him most (while the game was in reach in the 2nd and 3rd quarters), he put the ball on the ground twice and had a couple of 3 and outs. Their drives were fumble, fumble, punt, punt, punt...that's where they lost the game.

---

If Tebow gets 5-6 seconds to pass, he can find someone down the field. He can extend plays with his legs. If he gets outside the pocket, he can be dangerous as well (that 30 yard run was a beaut) because he can run or throw the little dump pass to an open RB. But I don't think I saw him hit a timing pattern at all today and that's a problem. He's going to have major problems against better defenses if he can't hit the quick slant or other timing patterns.

---

Sometimes it's not about who you play, but when you play them. Denver's recent 7-1 streak exemplifies that to the nth degree.


Beat winless Miami
Lost to Detriot
Beat Oakland with a new QB (Palmer) who hadn't played in a year throwing 3 ints.
Beat KC when Cassel went down.
Beat the Jets, who were on a short week and coming off an emotional loss to NE.
Beat SD, who was finishing up 5 straight losses and missed a FG to lose.
Beat Minn without AP.
Beat Chicago without Cutler and Forte.


That's still a 7-1 record, but you won't see a "softer" winning streak all year. I expect Denver to beat a badly slumping Buffalo team and make the playoffs. After that, we'll see how they do against a tough defense because they'll play either Pittsburgh or Baltimore.

The winning streak was soft. I've never said it wasn't. I'm looking at improvement from game to game, play to play.

He did hit multiple timing slants in the Pats game, I'm not sure what you were watching there.

I think there are three gigantic issues Tebow is facing:

1) The WR suck. Period. They are horrible. Look at some wide shots of the Patriots game and he simply didn't have anywhere to throw the ball, even when he had 5 seconds.

2) He's far too careful early in the game. I think this is offensive design as much as it is Tebow not wanting to force throws.

3) Tebow is a young QB. I mean, he has as many starts in two years as Cam Newton does in one. Newton has more yards and a higher completion percentage, but he also has 16 INT's. Tebow has flaws, but every young QB does. Look at guys in their first or second years now: Bradford, Newton, Ponder, Dalton, McCoy, Yates, Locker, Babbard. . .

What do you have there? Newton is the best of the bunch. Dalton has looked great "for a rookie" and I love his future, but him and Tebow have almost identical yards per attempt. Beyond that, how many of the guys above are studs? The answer is a few of them. They are young. Some will develop, some will not.

Tebow has weaknesses and it's far from a sure bet that he'll succeed in this league. But I'm really impressed by how much he's improved from game to game in a short time span. He made timing throws yesterday (multiple slants) that he couldn't have made even three weeks ago.

Trent Dilfer reviewed him and commented how much he'd improved in a short time as well. If the improvement stops, he's not going to be in this league. But why is it some sure bet the improvement will stop? One thing I want to see is more throws on first down during games. That's where a lot of high percentage passes are for young QB's.

Take a look at Andy Dalton:

1st down - 64.3%, 7.12 ypa
2nd down - 61.9% 7.36 ypa
3rd down - 50% 5.88

Tebow has a 99.0 rating on first down. Why is Denver running the ball 80+% of the time on first down during quarters 1-3? It's mind boggling. He can be trusted every bit as much as a lot of other young QB's in this league. If he fails, he'll fail, but given the improvement he's made, I don't understand why people think this is the finished product either. This isn't me saying "He will succeed without a doubt in a conventional offense" This is me saying he's shown enough to be given a chance to do so. Those are very different things.

[MikeVic]

Who the hell was the sideline guy they just had on ESPN? I could not understand what he was saying lol.

[Blackadar]

Stuff

I don't see any reason to let him wing it on 1st down.

In terms of completion percentage, he compares poorly to Dalton. Tebow is completing passes at a 51.7% clip on 1st down, 49% on 2nd and 46.6% on 3rd down - all of those are very sub-par. His YPA goes down drastically from 1st (8.42) to 3rd down (5.66), but this is a function of facing defenses geared towards the pass. Which goes to show that when the defense is expecting pass, Tebow's effectiveness throwing the ball goes down dramatically. He's completing a hideous 34% of passes that travel 11 yards or more - and you want to put the ball in the air more?

Also, why wouldn't you run it? The ground game has been extremely effective - Denver is #1 in rushing offense. Not only are they effective in overall yardage, they're getting 4.9 yards per carry. That's winning football. You're quick to point out a 7-2 record - do you not think that the game plan has something to do with that? Also, do you not believe that tiring out the defense with their physical running game has something to do with the huge amount of time Tebow has to throw the ball during those 4th quarter comebacks?

I watched the entire Denver / NE game and I don't remember him completing any timing patterns. Maybe I missed one, but there were only 11 completions, so I couldn't have missed many.

[RedKingGold]

49er's have a stadium-wide blackout ten minutes before their biggest game in almost ten years kicks off.

I guess they need a new stadium after all...

[JediKooter]

It's all relative and a matter of expectations.

Here, you are rooting for your team to lose games not make the playoffs becuase the current leadership of your organization, which has led your team to the playoffs in three out of the four last years and has led your team to winning seasons in three out of the last four years, isn't good enough to get that next step...

My point is that I'd love to get to a point where making the playoffs on a consistent basis and consecutive winning seasons just "isn't enough".

Even when the Lions were toying with that kind of success in the Wayne Fontes/Barry Sanders era, I still never rooted them to lose games and miss the playoffs, regardless of whether Wayne would be fired. So, either I have never gotten to that point because the Lions weren't consistently good enough for me to reach it or I wasn't seeing the bigger picture.

That said, I would never want Norv Turner to be my head coach. I don't think he's a very good head coach.

I don't disagree with you all that much. However, those winning seasons by the Chargers are rather deceiving*. And it is a matter of perspective. So yes, what they have done is definitely not good enough through my eyes and I can definitely see where, coming from your point of view, I should be happy that they are making the playoffs. And don't get me wrong, I'm happy when they win, but, it's a shallow happiness, knowing that Norv is going to take The Precious away from us Chargers fans, the first chance he gets. I don't know how to describe it. It's like having a kid that has the potential to be brightest kid in the class, but, keeps getting really bad teachers that stunt his performance.

If they continue winning, it's going to delay something that should have taken place a long time ago. So rooting for them to lose, is just a means to an end. If they win a Super Bowl under a Norv Turner/AJ Smith regime, I will renounce my atheism. ;)

I wouldn't wish Norv Turner on the Raid...oh never mind.

*Deceiving - They are in a weak division. Though the Chiefs, Raiders & Broncos are starting to show signs of life. They've benefited from a 8-8 schedule and the hang over season after Marty got fired. So looks can be deceiving. I'd be more impressed if they were beating the Steelers and Patriots on a regular basis, in the regular season and in the playoffs.

Fun Fact: Since the AFL/NFL merger, the Chargers have made the playoffs 12 times. The Lions? 9.

[JediKooter]

Here you go:
Lorenzo Neal Interview (http://wpc.31d2.edgecastcdn.net/8031D2/xxsportsl/common/global_audio/40/43274.mp3)

Thank you kind sir!

[Rizon]

Oh shit, Tebow turned the power off at the Niners game!!!

[MikeVic]

Holy fuck ESPN, scare mongering much?

[RedKingGold]

Holy fuck ESPN, scare mongering much?

ESPN now reporting that Ed Harris and a team of mercenaries have hijacked biological weapons and have holed up with a group of scared tourists on Alcatraz island.

[JediKooter]

ESPN now reporting that Ed Harris and a team of mercenaries have hijacked biological weapons and have holed up with a group of scared tourists on Alcatraz island.

WELCOME TO THE ROCK!!

[k0ruptr]

LOL @ ESPN . these guys are hilarious in a bad way

[larrymcg421]

ESPN now reporting that Ed Harris and a team of mercenaries have hijacked biological weapons and have holed up with a group of scared tourists on Alcatraz island.

Don't worry. They are sending in Tim Tebow and he's a sure bet to stop Ed Harris. Of course, that will only be after 75% of the biological weapons have been released.

[tucker rocky]

Oh shit, Tebow turned the power off at the Niners game!!!

In love much with the Tebow craziness? :lol:

[bronconick]

I understand both H_B's and Jedi's points, I think. San Diego was kind of my "playoff team" during the later Millen years and when Tomlinson was at his peak (and I had him on fantasy teams two of those years and got me a title and a runner up) and it was absolutely befuddling how a team a) fired a coach for playoff non-performance and replaced him with an idiot and b) blew through their window because of said idiot and the stubbornness of the GM.

Granted, they had to deal with both Brady and Manning, but the amount of talent should have resulted in *a* trip to the Super Bowl somewhere in there.

[TroyF]

I don't see any reason to let him wing it on 1st down.

In terms of completion percentage, he compares poorly to Dalton. Tebow is completing passes at a 51.7% clip on 1st down, 49% on 2nd and 46.6% on 3rd down - all of those are very sub-par. His YPA goes down drastically from 1st (8.42) to 3rd down (5.66), but this is a function of facing defenses geared towards the pass. Which goes to show that when the defense is expecting pass, Tebow's effectiveness throwing the ball goes down dramatically. He's completing a hideous 34% of passes that travel 11 yards or more - and you want to put the ball in the air more?

Also, why wouldn't you run it? The ground game has been extremely effective - Denver is #1 in rushing offense. Not only are they effective in overall yardage, they're getting 4.9 yards per carry. That's winning football. You're quick to point out a 7-2 record - do you not think that the game plan has something to do with that? Also, do you not believe that tiring out the defense with their physical running game has something to do with the huge amount of time Tebow has to throw the ball during those 4th quarter comebacks?

I watched the entire Denver / NE game and I don't remember him completing any timing patterns. Maybe I missed one, but there were only 11 completions, so I couldn't have missed many.

A lot of the completion figures count the entire year. Starting with the Jets game, Tebow is hitting 55% on first down for a ridiculous 10.65 yards per pass attempt. Now, if you want to make the argument that running up the middle for 3 yards a pop on first down is better than averaging over 10 yards per pass attempt and zero turnovers, I'll just throw my hands up in the air and give up.

[jbergey22]

A lot of the completion figures count the entire year. Starting with the Jets game, Tebow is hitting 55% on first down for a ridiculous 10.65 yards per pass attempt. Now, if you want to make the argument that running up the middle for 3 yards a pop on first down is better than averaging over 10 yards per pass attempt and zero turnovers, I'll just throw my hands up in the air and give up.

Are you more interested in the Broncos winning games or proving that Tebow is a capable NFL quarterback? The Broncos are 7-2 playing the way they are playing with a completely mediocre team. I dont understand why you would want anything to change.

The fact that they run the ball so successfully and teams expect run is the exact reason Tebow is so successful on 1st down. Change the gameplan around so teams are not respecting the run as much and the pass isnt such a favorable situation.

[TroyF]

Are you more interested in the Broncos winning games or proving that Tebow is a capable NFL quarterback? The Broncos are 7-2 playing the way they are playing with a completely mediocre team. I dont understand why you would want anything to change.

The fact that they run the ball so successfully and teams expect run is the exact reason Tebow is so successful on 1st down. Change the gameplan around so teams are not respecting the run as much and the pass isnt such a favorable situation.

Seriously? I want to see Denver win, but I think the wins have been a mirage. Playing the style we are playing, we should have lost to the Dolphins (onside kick), Chargers (missed FG in OT by SD), Bears (obvious) and nearly blew the Vikings game until they opened it up in the second half.

This style isn't winning. Other teams are screwing up and Tebow is playing at a Tom Brady level in the fourth quarter. (laugh if you want, but Tebow has a 106.9 rating in the fourth quarter this year) I want to see what happens if the Broncos open up the offense a little bit. I'm NOT talking about 40 passes and 10 runs. I'm not talking about throwing the ball on 75% of first downs. I'm simply talking about a balanced offense with a QB who has clearly improved when it comes to throwing the ball and a guy who does not throw INT's.

I fail to see where the harm is in that. There is no logical reason they should run 18 times and pass 4 times in 22 first down plays against the Patriots. It's poor play calling and it absolutely hindered the chance of a Broncos victory.

[TroyF]

Big Ben is really struggling tonight. Missing wide open guys and throwing critical INT's. 49ers red zone offense is just brutal.

[cartman]

A lot of the completion figures count the entire year. Starting with the Jets game, Tebow is hitting 55% on first down for a ridiculous 10.65 yards per pass attempt. Now, if you want to make the argument that running up the middle for 3 yards a pop on first down is better than averaging over 10 yards per pass attempt and zero turnovers, I'll just throw my hands up in the air and give up.

So here are the Broncos 1st down stats for those games:

Run - 84 carries for 424 yards (5.04 per carry)
Pass - 24/41 for 417 yards

That 10.65 yards per pass attempt is thrown out of whack by the 3 long throws against Minny and the one 34 yard pass against the Pats. On the other 37 throws drops down to 7.03 per attempt. Only 2 yards per carry more than the rush average. There isn't a team in the league that would go away from averaging 5 yards on first down runs.

[cartman]

Dola,

They had 11 throws on 1st down vs. the Pats. Combine that with the 12 throws in the 4th quarter/OT vs. the Bears, over half of their throws on 1st down in those 5 games have come in the past 5+ quarters.

[RedKingGold]

Alex Smith is just brutal.

Fixed.

49ers would have a 14-point lead by now if Smith's balls didn't flutter inaccurately through the air to open receivers.

[k0ruptr]

I know that wasn't the redzone but close enough. The Niners really need to figure out this no touchdown thing. At this point it's mentally frustrating them no doubt.

[Rizon]

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL Tebow strikes with cutting power again!!!!

That dude so crazy

[k0ruptr]

lol

[k0ruptr]

Niners red zone offense cut the power, gotta try something to turn it around!

[Rizon]

What worse ... Tebow pass or commentaters trying to fill dead time

[Rizon]

I wonder why they aren't switching to Berman so he can talk about the impending doom cause power went off at 5:15 and the 89 earthquake struck at 5:04 and how that is eerily similar.

[cartman]

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL Tebow strikes with cutting power again!!!!

That dude so crazy
I wonder why they aren't switching to Berman so he can talk about the impending doom cause power went off at 5:15 and the 89 earthquake struck at 5:04 and how that is eerily similar.

OMFG

[stevew]

Seriously...fuck all this. Unless it can delay the game long enough so that I can get home for the 4th quarter.

[TroyF]

So here are the Broncos 1st down stats for those games:

Run - 84 carries for 424 yards (5.04 per carry)
Pass - 24/41 for 417 yards

That 10.65 yards per pass attempt is thrown out of whack by the 3 long throws against Minny and the one 34 yard pass against the Pats. On the other 37 throws drops down to 7.03 per attempt. Only 2 yards per carry more than the rush average. There isn't a team in the league that would go away from averaging 5 yards on first down runs.

Well, if I get allowed to cherry pick what I want and what I don't want, I could probably make it look even better than 10 per pass.attempt. (lets count the four first down drops in the Bears game that all would have went for 12+ yards for example)

I believe they'll throw it more on first down against the Bills next week. I believe he'll have good numbers if they do. Look, I'm not a Tebow wacko, I'll gladly admit it if I'm wrong. I just want the training wheels taken off. He's shown me enough to do that. At some point, I think an NFL team is going to turn him loose for 60 minutes rather than 15. I see no reason not to do it right now. I think some of you are thinking I'm asking for the Run and Shoot. I'm just asking for a more reasonable split and I'd be doing it for ANY young QB. IMO, the best passing down for a young QB in college or the NFL is first down. I'm ok if you guys disagree with that.

[stevew]

Can we stop talking about Tebow for 5 fucking seconds. Jesus Christ.

[stevew]

The only way this could be worse would be if Tebow played for the University if Missouri and got drafted by the Kansas City née Pittsburgh Penguins.

[MikeVic]

What worse ... Tebow pass or commentaters trying to fill dead time

Nothing can be worse than these guys trying to fill dead time.

[RedKingGold]

Who the heck is John Sutcliffe and how did he get a job with ESPN?

[MikeVic]

Who the heck is John Sutcliffe and how did he get a job with ESPN?

EXACTLY. I think this is the guy that I was WTFing about during pregame (posted earlier questioning who just talked since I couldn't understand a word he said). Talk about marble-mouth or whatever is going on there.

[thesloppy]

OK. Fire everybody, I want John the exasperated wheezy hispanic guy in the booth, now.

[TroyF]

Dola,

They had 11 throws on 1st down vs. the Pats. Combine that with the 12 throws in the 4th quarter/OT vs. the Bears, over half of their throws on 1st down in those 5 games have come in the past 5+ quarters.

Actually, you could say that over half those throws in the last five games have come in TWO quarters. He threw it 4 times on 22 first down plays before the fourth quarter. He threw it on first down 7 times in the fourth quarter. That's 19 throws on first down in the fourth quarter of two straight games. With the success he's had of late, why not throw the ball more on first down at other times?

[TroyF]

The only way this could be worse would be if Tebow played for the University if Missouri and got drafted by the Kansas City née Pittsburgh Penguins.


I'll stop. I'll post no more about him until the offseason. Not like anyone is agreeing with me anyway. :)

[bronconick]

What worse ... Tebow pass or commentaters trying to fill dead time

I haven't heard so much about shooting someone full of drugs since watching Varsity Blues. Or a congressional steroids hearing.

[Crapshoot]

The 49ers inability to finish in the end zone is gonna cost em; Ben can't keep giving them the ball, can he?

[Crapshoot]

That was a ridiculous call.

[spleen1015]

The 49ers inability to finish in the end zone is gonna cost em; Ben can't keep giving them the ball, can he?

It will kill them in the playoffs.

[Crapshoot]

Ok, what the heck was that play call by the Steelers? Thanks for not taking the 3 points. :D

[Matthean]

It will kill them in the playoffs.

If the 49ers get beat, the Handshake Bowl is in play with two weeks to go.

[stevew]

Ok, what the heck was that play call by the Steelers? Thanks for not taking the 3 points. :D

You overestimate the skill level of Shawn Suisham.

[Rizon]

OMFG

What the shit


(btw, that is 11 characters = # of TD passes Tebow has thrown this year)

[Matthean]

Rex Ryan says New York Jets 'better' than New York Giants - ESPN New York (http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/story/_/id/7369322/rex-ryan-says-new-york-jets-better-new-york-giants)

[Crapshoot]

You overestimate the skill level of Shawn Suisham.

Yeah, but the play call that got them there? Ie, they were in FG range and went for a wide slant?

[stevew]

I was looking at the wrong play. We gotta be inside the 30 for Suisham to have a decent chance of making a kick anyways. And throwing to the back is really a new thing for us, we're still experimental there.

[cartman]

Rex Ryan says New York Jets 'better' than New York Giants - ESPN New York (http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/story/_/id/7369322/rex-ryan-says-new-york-jets-better-new-york-giants)

Whaddya mean Rex?

http://chrisrrau.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/tom-coughlin.jpg?w=300&h=208

[spleen1015]

John Sutcliffe....

Wut?

[TroyF]

Rex Ryan:

There's no way I'm going to be second fiddle. If we were playing the New York Yankees, I don't want to be second fiddle to them. This is the same type of deal. I want to be the best team in football, not just the best team in this city. But we'll start by being the best team in this city.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, you aren't the best team in football and have never been. You have never been the best team in the AFC. You have never been the best team in your division. (yes, I remember the "nose bleed" game) If you lose to the Giants, then what happens? You can't be the best team in green uniforms after the thrashing the Eagles gave to you. The best team with a nickname that starts with the letter "J"?

I mean, I guess if you keep dropping the goals, you'll get something Rex.

[EagleFan]

John Sutcliffe....

Wut?

Just a guess.... not his real name.... :)

[RedKingGold]

Rex Ryan:

There's no way I'm going to be second fiddle. If we were playing the New York Yankees, I don't want to be second fiddle to them. This is the same type of deal. I want to be the best team in football, not just the best team in this city. But we'll start by being the best team in this city.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, you aren't the best team in football and have never been. You have never been the best team in the AFC. You have never been the best team in your division. (yes, I remember the "nose bleed" game) If you lose to the Giants, then what happens? You can't be the best team in green uniforms after the thrashing the Eagles gave to you. The best team with a nickname that starts with the letter "J"?

I mean, I guess if you keep dropping the goals, you'll get something Rex.

So much effort to be known as the best team in New Jersey...

[EagleFan]

Rex Ryan:

There's no way I'm going to be second fiddle. If we were playing the New York Yankees, I don't want to be second fiddle to them. This is the same type of deal. I want to be the best team in football, not just the best team in this city. But we'll start by being the best team in this city.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, you aren't the best team in football and have never been. You have never been the best team in the AFC. You have never been the best team in your division. (yes, I remember the "nose bleed" game) If you lose to the Giants, then what happens? You can't be the best team in green uniforms after the thrashing the Eagles gave to you. The best team with a nickname that starts with the letter "J"?

I mean, I guess if you keep dropping the goals, you'll get something Rex.

As an Eagles fan, Rex needs to SFTU this week and worry about their game on Saturday.

[Crapshoot]

Gah, Alex should have just run for the first down there. And I'm damn impressed by Polamalu - he's like an all world CF.

[EagleFan]

When did they start replaying the LSU/Alabama game...?

[RendeR]

I love the fact that Tirico thinks he has a better view of the play than the review booth does.

[Crapshoot]

49ers defense isn't wrapping up the guys - this worries me.

[k0ruptr]

Good job D. now more throws to Vernon Davis pls k thx

[k0ruptr]

Smith and Smith. They are awesome.

[Suburban Rhythm]

I don't think that call impacts anything...but WTF?

[k0ruptr]

Wow, huge penalty gives life to SF and most likely death to the steelers for the game

Sorry following on gamecast, was it not 4th down?

[Vince, Pt. II]

What was the penalty? I can't watch the game, and the Yahoo gamecast is pretty lame for on-the-fly information.

[stevew]

Just unreal. Home field pathway cleared like the Red Sea, but we drug along our gimpy ass QB and the river closed.

[stevew]

What was the penalty? I can't watch the game, and the Yahoo gamecast is pretty lame for on-the-fly information.

Either vaulting to jump to block a FG, or lining up over the long snapper.

[k0ruptr]

Yahoo said leaping, which I assumed was on the FG attempt. I'm lost right now

[cartman]

Can we stop talking about Tebow for 5 fucking seconds. Jesus Christ.

But this is the Week 15 thread. 15... 15...where I have seen that number before?

Oh, that's right
http://www.showoffs-designs.com/images/uploads/TEBOW12-1.jpg

[Scoobz0202]

Used another player to leap or something. looked pretty stupid, ticky-tacky.

[Crapshoot]

Leaping - jumped on the C/Long Snapper, and over him.

[Crapshoot]

Btw, Aldos Smith is good. Damn good. The University of Missouri has given the 49ers their best lineman (Justin Smith) and their best pass-rusher (Aldon Smith).

[Julio Riddols]

Gotta think Dennis Dixon might have been a good idea after the first half.. Ben just can't move and the Niners have way too much of a pass rush, and theres no chance of run support. If I was coaching, he would have sat after the second power outage.

[cartman]

Gotta think Dennis Dixon might have been a good idea after the first half.. Ben just can't move and the Niners have way too much of a pass rush, and theres no chance of run support. If I was coaching, he would have sat after the second power outage.

Yeah, with the painkiller injections he got, it is almost like bringing a pitcher back after a long rain delay.

[k0ruptr]

damn hes good.

[Crapshoot]

Yeah, I admire Big Ben being out there and all, but Pittsburgh ought to pull him out - he's a sitting duck right now, and PIT is going to the playoffs.

[PilotMan]

I think that if I had seen Ben playing like this in practice I would have told him to rest and Batch start the game. Just not worth the chance of injury considering all the problems he is having. His whole throwing mechanism is fucked up, besides the mobility problem. He just shouldn't be out there. Batch gives us more than that.

[Vince, Pt. II]

ESPN Scorecenter just alerted me that Tarrell Brown intercepted the ball for no gain in his own endzone, giving the Steelers a safety. The app has been funky all night.

[Julio Riddols]

Also, its one thing to have pride and want to be out there for your team, but I think I would have pulled myself after figuring out I was more of a hindrance than a help in a game as big as this. This isn't like Cutler last season, Roethlisberger is clearly at about 25% of his maximum ability out there.

[cartman]

ESPN Scorecenter just alerted me that Tarrell Brown intercepted the ball for no gain in his own endzone, giving the Steelers a safety. The app has been funky all night.

It was overturned after a coach's challenge.

[Crapshoot]

It was overturned after a coach's challenge.

No, it wasn't - was originally marked as being down at the two.

Wait, did I just sarcasm fail? L:D

[Julio Riddols]

Thanks Antonio Brown for losing the goddamned game for me.

[dave731]

Big win for the Niners tonight as this is a huge step in getting the 2 seed...

[Julio Riddols]

.08 points knocked me out tonight Lathum. I feel your pain.

[tucker rocky]

Oh yeah, it's a conspiracy, Tebow made the power go out, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Tebow is the almighty one, blah, blah, blah.

Are you serious people? Gushing over a football player?

This is just as bad as the Bieber epidemic.

Give it a rest.

[King of New York]

Oh yeah, it's a conspiracy, Tebow made the power go out, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Tebow is the almighty one, blah, blah, blah.

Are you serious people? Gushing over a football player?

This is just as bad as the Bieber epidemic.

Give it a rest.

If Tebow had been playing last night, they could have just used his luminescent glow to illuminate the field during the power outages.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Leaping - jumped on the C/Long Snapper, and over him.

I saw Harbaugh bitching and screaming about this after the 49ers first field goal. I guess all of his whining paid off in the end.

[RedKingGold]

I saw Harbaugh bitching and screaming about this after the 49ers first field goal. I guess all of his whining paid off in the end.

Yes, because neither Jim Schwartz nor any other Lions' player have whined about not getting calls.

[Logan]

Come on guys, end this beef and shake on it.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Yes, because neither Jim Schwartz nor any other Lions' player have whined about not getting calls.

But their whining never pays off. It just results in more penalties. :(

[Autumn]

If Tebow had been playing last night, they could have just used his luminescent glow to illuminate the field during the power outages.

I heard the NFL asked him to attend all outdoor playoff games so they can be sure they'll have good weather.

[JediKooter]

I heard the NFL asked him to attend all outdoor playoff games so they can be sure they'll have good weather.

I heard that his unborn spirit, guided the ball into Franco Harris' hands on the Immaculate Reception play.

[Autumn]

And we don't even need to point out that he inspired the Hail Mary play.

[tucker rocky]

And we don't even need to point out that he inspired the Hail Mary play.

Unlikely though. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hail_Mary_pass

[JPhillips]

I hear Touchdown Jesus gives thanks to Tebow.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I don't disagree with you all that much. However, those winning seasons by the Chargers are rather deceiving*. And it is a matter of perspective. So yes, what they have done is definitely not good enough through my eyes and I can definitely see where, coming from your point of view, I should be happy that they are making the playoffs. And don't get me wrong, I'm happy when they win, but, it's a shallow happiness, knowing that Norv is going to take The Precious away from us Chargers fans, the first chance he gets. I don't know how to describe it. It's like having a kid that has the potential to be brightest kid in the class, but, keeps getting really bad teachers that stunt his performance.

If they continue winning, it's going to delay something that should have taken place a long time ago. So rooting for them to lose, is just a means to an end. If they win a Super Bowl under a Norv Turner/AJ Smith regime, I will renounce my atheism. ;)

I wouldn't wish Norv Turner on the Raid...oh never mind.

*Deceiving - They are in a weak division. Though the Chiefs, Raiders & Broncos are starting to show signs of life. They've benefited from a 8-8 schedule and the hang over season after Marty got fired. So looks can be deceiving. I'd be more impressed if they were beating the Steelers and Patriots on a regular basis, in the regular season and in the playoffs.

Fun Fact: Since the AFL/NFL merger, the Chargers have made the playoffs 12 times. The Lions? 9.

I certainly hope the Lions can make all of your Christmas wishes come true on Saturday!

Come on! Sing it with me!

Forward down the field,
A charging team that will not yield.
And when the Blue and Silver wave,
Stand and cheer the brave.
Rah, Rah, Rah.
Go hard, win the game.
With honor you will keep your fame.
Down the field and gain,
A Lion victory!

GOOOOOO LIONS!