PING: Attorneys on the Board

[Ksyrup]

Any of you have experience as in-house counsel? I've been approached about an opportunity, and it's definitely intriguing. Just trying to get as many perspectives as I can on the pros/cons of such a move. Thanks.

[albionmoonlight]

Criminal law here, so no real perspective to offer. But good luck with whatever you choose. And congrats on getting an opportunity.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I think digamma is an in-house guy. Or at least he was at some point.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I almost jumped ship to in-house a little over a year ago now. It was very tempting. If the company was located in Metro Detroit I would have done it in a heart beat.

[digamma]

Yeah, I've been in-house for about 7 years.

Key thing to look for in my mind is how the legal department fits in with the business, both in terms of structure and relationships.

Let me know if there are specific questions.

[JediKooter]

I'm just an old country lawyer...

[Glengoyne]

My first thought when I read the thread.title was 'what could Ksyrup have done that would make HIM need an attorney?

Good luck with the opportunity.

[law90026]

Was in-house for Yahoo for 21 months before going back to practice (note I"m not a US lawyer but based in Asia).

The pros:
1) more regular hours;
2) can be really great depending on the company you're with and the work environment;
3) closer to the business;
4) work can be less complicated to some extent.

The cons:
1) you're a cost centre, not a profit earner (unlike in a firm), so can be viewed as a liability/show-stopper;
2) stupid business people that don't know what lawyers do or don't appreciate what you do;
3) a company that doesn't appreciate its in-house lawyers will make it quite hard to stay (from other friends experiences);
4) increments/bonuses/overall pay generally lower compared to practice;
5) options not always worth that much unless you're working for a really fantastic company or a start-up with IPO aspirations.

For me personally, I found my time as in-house counsel frustrating because the work was really boring/tedious after a while but different people will want different things in life, so YMMV.

[digamma]

Agree with many of your pros and cons, but my experience has been almost completely the opposite. I found big firm work pretty tedious and I loathe, loathe, loathe keeping time. Now, my practice in-house is much more varied than firm work would have ever been for me, but it may be a circumstance of my particular spot/position.

[Ksyrup]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I'll update here when things happen (or don't happen).

[Draft Dodger]

man, you can't swing a cat in this thread without hitting a lawyer

[Ksyrup]

My goal was to gather us all in one place so you guys had easy pickins.

[stevew]

If they can't find the body, you have a much better chance of not being convicted.

[britrock88]

My goal was to gather us all in one place so you guys had easy pickins.

So should I come back here and post in the fall?

[stevew]

My goal was to gather us all in one place so you guys had easy pickins.

Now if we could transfer you all to the bottom of the ocean, we'd have a good start. :).

[JediKooter]

Now if we could transfer you all to the bottom of the ocean, we'd have a good start. :).

I'm sure they'd fit in an ambulance. ;)

[Ksyrup]

Hey now, I'm sensing a small bit of hostility.

[albionmoonlight]

So should I come back here and post in the fall?

Where do you go?

I'm a UNC-law grad is why I ask.

[britrock88]

I'm at UNC. (Well, spring of 3L year, not terribly often)

[Ksyrup]

Ha!

I'm sure I've told the story before, but when I was at FSU, there was the growing legend of a guy just a year or two ahead of me who clerked in Miami during the spring 3L semester. Showed up for finals in April and his JD, and that was it.

[albionmoonlight]

I'm at UNC. (Well, spring of 3L year, not terribly often)

Awesome.

Back when you did attend, who were your favorite professors? Curious to see if it is some of the same people from when I went there.

[britrock88]

Off the top of my head, I enjoyed... Prof. Bryan's tax classes, Corrado (torts and philosophy), and Hornstein's admin law the most. Other notables are Hazen (I actually like all the puns), Broun (the man more than the evidence class), Jacoby (who knows more about bankruptcy than almost anyone), and Gibson (who was a calm guiding hand when I wrote the moot court problem in the fall).

[albionmoonlight]

Hornstein and Gibson were two of my favorites. She's one of the smartest people I have ever met.

[Ksyrup]

So fast-forward 2 months, and it looks like I will be going the day-long interview route at some point in the next 2 weeks. Although I don't have a clue what they will offer in terms of salary or how the benefits stack up to what I have now, assuming it is a decent bump I am (or will be) very torn about whether to make the move. Of course, I need to actually impress some people to even get an offer, but the guy who contacted me has told me I'm his only candidate right now.

[albionmoonlight]

Good luck and hope that you make the right choice.

[Ksyrup]

Went through the interview process on Monday, and it couldn't have gone better. That was with the out-of-town legal folks who oversee the specific company I'd be working for, including the guy who would be my boss. Although I know the local folks, we haven't talked about this and so I'm meeting with the CEO and Chairman for dinner next week. But I've already been told an offer is being prepared, so this meeting is really more about getting comfortable with the job and answering any questions I might have as opposed to further decision-making on their part. So it's all good at this point. Then I'll/we'll have a big decision to make.

[Izulde]

Between this and jeff's thread, it's been awesome news on the FOFC job front lately. :)

[britrock88]

Send any and all attorney-hiring karma my way, pls.

[Ksyrup]

Someone's sending me mixed signals, trying to make an already difficult decision tougher. Yesterday I got 2 new clients. And then a smaller thing, but still coincidental - I've been stuck in an associate office since I came here, and it's not a big deal, but there just haven't been any partner offices open that are close to my work group, so I've just stayed in this office. Well, the guy 2 doors down gave notice and leaves Friday. So now I've got my partner office if I want it. Great timing.

[Ksyrup]

Looks like I will be making a decision tonight (or confirming a decision I've essentially already made) and informing some folks here tomorrow morning. This is kinda nerve-wracking. Really have no clue what kind of reaction I'm going to get. Certainly surprise and shock. It's what comes next that worries me the most...

[Honolulu_Blue]

Good luck!

[albionmoonlight]

Really have no clue what kind of reaction I'm going to get. Certainly surprise and shock.

And probably an offer to go to lunch. You've just transformed from a co-worker into a potential in-road at a potential client.

[Swaggs]

I've only changed jobs a few times in my life, but it has always played out much worse in my mind than in real life. I think most folks have an understanding of what it is like to make a move and tend to treat you well (and you can probably already anticipate the folks that won't).

Good luck and hopefully they are cool with you.

[Ksyrup]

And probably an offer to go to lunch. You've just transformed from a co-worker into a potential in-road at a potential client.

More than a potential client. We're already primary counsel to this company, so this just ensures more of the same. But it's complicated - folks in another of our offices will probably appreciate that aspect of it more than in my office. Here, there are only 2 of us with any significant experience doing what we do, so this is going to create a large hole.

To top it off, we just hired an associate to assist us, and she's got no functional experience in this practice. I'm supposed to be the primary mentor/trainer. She starts on the 15th.

Best laid plans and such....

[GrantDawg]

Threadjack: All I got to say is "thank God for good lawyers." I was surrounded by them today, and even the opposing counsel was a nice guy. There are sharks, and jerks, and money-grubbing ambulance chasers out there. But there are some attorneys that are just good people trying to do what is best for their clients. Who'd a thunk it?

[lcjjdnh]

Good luck!

[Ksyrup]

It's done. Went well. This week has been particularly brutal, so I think after my opening comment, he was in a "laugh about it because it hurts less than crying or getting angry" phase. I left it that I'm going to take the weekend to make a final decision, but that I'm heavily leaning toward doing it. As far as transition, we'll work on that next week.

So now I've got to try to figure out how to concentrate enough to get some work done.

[Ksyrup]

So, it's officially a done deal. I made it official on Monday morning, and we've been working out the details since. We've got so much going on here and I don't want to leave them in a bad position, so I won't be leaving for another 4 or 5 weeks. I start on June 25th at the new position for a week - then go on vacation the first 2 weeks of July. Timing stinks, but it's Caitlin's World Series softball tournament in Panama City and is already planned and paid for.

One downside is the job is in another state, and I've got to apply for the Bar (not take the exam, but go through a full-blown application process) because they don't have an in-house counsel exemption. Really freaking ridiculous, IMO. Even worse is I'll be physicially located about a quarter mile from Kentucky, just across the river. I should just rent a pontoon and practice law from the Kentucky side.

[Draft Dodger]

Even worse is I'll be physicially located about a quarter mile from Kentucky, just across the river. I should just rent a pontoon and practice law from the Kentucky side.

#17 on the large list of "Things a Lawyer Would Think of"

(ps, congrats!)

[britrock88]

Congratulations, and good luck on the bar application process (I feel your pain).

[Ksyrup]

I've done it twice before. At least this time I don't have to take an exam. But answering all those damn questions is a pain. I just need to make sure my answers are consistent with the other apps I've filed.

[Ksyrup]

Well, tomorrow is my last day at the firm. I'll take a week off, start my new job on the 25th with orientation and then a few days in the office, then I take a pre-planned 2 week vacation. Not exactly ideal, but couldn't be helped.

I'll also be filing this damn Indiana bar application. The more I read, the worse it gets. After they take several months to review and approve it, I apparently have to go for a one-on-one interview with a board member before I get final clearance. Ridiculous.

[JediKooter]

The wheels of justice grind slowly my friend. :)

[molson]

Well, tomorrow is my last day at the firm. I'll take a week off, start my new job on the 25th with orientation and then a few days in the office, then I take a pre-planned 2 week vacation. Not exactly ideal, but couldn't be helped.

I'll also be filing this damn Indiana bar application. The more I read, the worse it gets. After they take several months to review and approve it, I apparently have to go for a one-on-one interview with a board member before I get final clearance. Ridiculous.

It's unbelievable what state bars and their employees do to justify their existence instead of say, disciplining dishonest attorneys and protecting the legal profession. Interviews? C'mon now.

[britrock88]

It's unbelievable what state bars and their employees do to justify their existence instead of say, disciplining dishonest attorneys and protecting the legal profession. Interviews? C'mon now.

Going through the process in NC, my situation for the interview is a bit lucky. Of the three interviewers, I worked for one, know and am friendly with the second, and the third is my mother.

[molson]

Going through the process in NC, my situation for the interview is a bit lucky. Of the three interviewers, I worked for one, know and am friendly with the second, and the third is my mother.

What kind of stuff do they ask you? "So Mr. bitrock88, would you say it's good, or bad, to take a clients money and pay down your own personal debts with it?" I can see maybe them calling you in for a personal explanation if you're a convicted felon or have bad credit or something, but for everyone? The process out here is a delight compared to what I hear some of you guys go through. I finished the application in less than an hour and that was it. Of course, I also think our bar is way too slow to discipline attorneys, so maybe the more active bars are more active with that stuff too.

[stevew]

It's unbelievable what state bars and their employees do to justify their existence instead of say, disciplining dishonest attorneys and protecting the legal profession. Interviews? C'mon now.

http://www.nypost.com/rw/nypost/2010/04/18/entertainment/photos_stories/cropped/tvw_breaking_bad--300x300.jpg

You don’t want a criminal lawyer... you want a criminal lawyer

[Jon]

What kind of stuff do they ask you? "So Mr. bitrock88, would you say it's good, or bad, to take a clients money and pay down your own personal debts with it?" I can see maybe them calling you in for a personal explanation if you're a convicted felon or have bad credit or something, but for everyone? The process out here is a delight compared to what I hear some of you guys go through. I finished the application in less than an hour and that was it. Of course, I also think our bar is way too slow to discipline attorneys, so maybe the more active bars are more active with that stuff too.

NY has a mandatory in-person interview. I did it off-season (meaning not when the majority of bar takers are conducted), so I had to go to a solo practicioner's office in Staten Island.

The guy was an older attorney who fought in the Korean War, and he had a picture of him from Guam, where he was stationed during the War. (this is significant to the story)

So, the interview was going smoothly. Usual questions--at the time a lot of grads were paying off student loans with credit cards, and then filing for bankrupcy, and then basically living off the cash from their jobs until the bankrupcy was removed from their credit. (more complicated than I'm explaining but it was a big problem apparently). Ethics, professionalism, etc.

And so we're winding down, and then he notices that I was born on Guam.
I though this was small talk.

It wasn't.

He asked for a green card or naturalization paperwork.

I explained for the next half hour (in a respectful manner of course) that Guam was territory so it didn't matter,. and in fact both of my parents were american so it didn't matter.

Well, after I thought I had him convinced, his secretary called me a few days later again requesting information.

I had to prove I was an American citizen before he would sign off on the admission.

[Ksyrup]

It's unbelievable what state bars and their employees do to justify their existence instead of say, disciplining dishonest attorneys and protecting the legal profession. Interviews? C'mon now.

Here's the frustrating part - I'm going to work in-house for a corporation. Yes, it's in Indiana, but I'm not going to be holding myself out to the general public as an attorney for hire. Most states have some form of limited license/exemption for in-house corporate attorneys. Indiana does. But there's is limited to attorneys with less than 5 years of experience who reside in Indiana and work solely for a corporation. So, apparently attorneys with no experience but who reside in Indiana get a pass, but experienced attorneys who drive over the bridge need to be interviewed.

Honestly, I'm not even sure what the interview process entails yet. Substantive law? Advice/counseling play-acting? Just wanting to meet me to make sure I'm not a lunatic (who somehow managed to remain in good standing with 2 other Bars for 16 years)?

[britrock88]

What kind of stuff do they ask you? "So Mr. bitrock88, would you say it's good, or bad, to take a clients money and pay down your own personal debts with it?" I can see maybe them calling you in for a personal explanation if you're a convicted felon or have bad credit or something, but for everyone?

So, apparently attorneys with no experience but who reside in Indiana get a pass, but experienced attorneys who drive over the bridge need to be interviewed.

Honestly, I'm not even sure what the interview process entails yet. Substantive law? Advice/counseling play-acting? Just wanting to meet me to make sure I'm not a lunatic (who somehow managed to remain in good standing with 2 other Bars for 16 years)?

Bummer that you're having to apply to the bar for in-house work, Ksyrup, and interesting that they're stringent about which in-house attorneys they exempt in the way that they are (less experience makes less sense to me, and residence seems irrelevant).

Our interviews are billed as being about ethics rule and/or decisions by the state licensing board. On a more functional level, though, it seems to be an opportunity to ask about shady parts of an applicant's record, such as previous bankruptcy, losing custody of their children, excessive debt, et cetera. And if there's none of that, it ends up as a conversation or more general Q&A with professionals that let them scan for a weirdo vibe. Of course, I haven't had mine yet, so if things go unexpectedly, I'll let you know in a couple weeks.

[Ksyrup]

So I'm completing my 5th week of work* at my new job (*2 weeks were vacation, so really, 3 weeks), and I'm really enjoying it. Getting dumped on by my overworked boss, but that's good as it gets me immediately involved with the business and forces me to meet a bunch of people. The logistics of working in-house for a small company that hasn't completely integrated with a new parent company are challenging (I have 2 phones and 2 computers, and the HR and IT people on site are of limited or no use to me since I technically report to NYC and have to work through NYC for everything), but I'm coping.

The work is challenging but diverse, it's in an industry I know and enjoy, and it's a fun, laid back atmosphere. I really like being able to bounce from issue to issue and not have to sit down at the end of the day and figure out how much time I spent on each issue (or even remember that I worked on those issues). Still can't get over people wearing shorts to work, but at least I've compromised with jeans a day or two a week. And being forced by my co-workers to leave the office before 4:30 because of traffic isn't too bad, either. In fact, it's Friday so I'll probably be leaving in about 5 minutes. I live about 60-70 minutes away, so the commute kinda sucks, but it's an easy interstate drive. It's just long and takes gas. In a couple of weeks, I'll probably start working Fridays from home, maybe throw a second day in there to work from home, too. But it's been a good move so far.

[Chief Rum]

Plus, the scenery.

[Crapshoot]

So I'm completing my 5th week of work* at my new job (*2 weeks were vacation, so really, 3 weeks), and I'm really enjoying it. Getting dumped on by my overworked boss, but that's good as it gets me immediately involved with the business and forces me to meet a bunch of people. The logistics of working in-house for a small company that hasn't completely integrated with a new parent company are challenging (I have 2 phones and 2 computers, and the HR and IT people on site are of limited or no use to me since I technically report to NYC and have to work through NYC for everything), but I'm coping.

The work is challenging but diverse, it's in an industry I know and enjoy, and it's a fun, laid back atmosphere. I really like being able to bounce from issue to issue and not have to sit down at the end of the day and figure out how much time I spent on each issue (or even remember that I worked on those issues). Still can't get over people wearing shorts to work, but at least I've compromised with jeans a day or two a week. And being forced by my co-workers to leave the office before 4:30 because of traffic isn't too bad, either. In fact, it's Friday so I'll probably be leaving in about 5 minutes. I live about 60-70 minutes away, so the commute kinda sucks, but it's an easy interstate drive. It's just long and takes gas. In a couple of weeks, I'll probably start working Fridays from home, maybe throw a second day in there to work from home, too. But it's been a good move so far.

60-70 minutes each way? How do you not go crazy doing that?

[JediKooter]

60-70 minutes each way? How do you not go crazy doing that?

It's the scenery.

[molson]

Ya, 2 hours of "me" time in the car every day, you definitely need a plan for that. Audiobooks, phone calls, podcasts, quiet plotting of some type. I used to listen to the Howard Stern show for an hour and a half into work and then angry, bitter Boston Sports fans on WEEI for an hour and a half home. I think it turned me into a troubled individual, for a while.

[Ksyrup]

Finally putting my iPod to use. Listening to a ton of music I've downloaded over the past 2-3 years but barely have time for. Other than that, XM.

It's an easy drive. 67.4 miles each way, and only about 1.5 is stop-and-go. The rest is highway, most of it major interstate.

[Ksyrup]

One of the things I've learned (quickly) to appreciate is the role of marketing to a commercial enterprise. In a law firm, it's all about communicating knowledge, wisdom, counsel, etc., to prospective clients, and that typically requires putting the attorneys out front as the marketers. In a company, you can use good ol' fashion marketing to communicate your message. You still have to have the substance, of course, but the extra effort doesn't hurt.

[stevew]

I'd recommend getting into some podcasts. It's the only way I survive my job, which is driving. It also depends on what your tastes are, as they are taste based, and there aren't many that are daily.

[Ksyrup]

I don't know. I've never been interested in podcasts. Never even listened to one, or felt compelled to. I've got enough music to last me quite a few commutes. If I want to listen to people talk, I'll usually put on the NFL, MLB, or college sports channels on XM.

[britrock88]

Geez, ksyrup, how big is your department?

[Ksyrup]

What do you mean? I'm essentially general counsel for a company - me and another guy up in NY run the US warranty division for the parent company, and I'm on-site at the subsidiary company.

[britrock88]

What I'm getting at is wondering if/when you'll need to bring somebody on in legal. :D

[Ksyrup]

Oh. ;)

Probably not likely. I've got a couple of non-attorneys I work with on compliance/filings, and we have a paralegal up in NY. Plus, the President of our division used to be the GC at my company, so we've probably got all the attorneys we need for a while.